2025/08/31

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2025-09-01 01:44:32 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-09-01 01:41:01 +0200 <monochrom> That whole "function binding vs variable binding" business. Perl repels me for the same reason.
2025-09-01 01:40:25 +0200 <EvanR> or the frankenlanguage purescript xD
2025-09-01 01:39:58 +0200 <monochrom> Not bothering. Lisp has other things that repel me. I will just use Haskell or Javascript.
2025-09-01 01:39:18 +0200 <twb> CL is "static typing later" not "static typing never"
2025-09-01 01:39:02 +0200 <twb> monochrom: you can declaim types in lisp
2025-09-01 01:38:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-01 01:38:10 +0200 <monochrom> I feel like Python is not too badly write-only.
2025-09-01 01:37:46 +0200 <monochrom> Perl
2025-09-01 01:37:39 +0200 <EvanR> ruby
2025-09-01 01:37:37 +0200 <EvanR> PHP, python, etc, is write only code
2025-09-01 01:37:24 +0200 <jreicher> You could even do nondeterministic code that way. :p
2025-09-01 01:37:11 +0200 <monochrom> s/form/former/
2025-09-01 01:37:02 +0200 <monochrom> On the upside, since the form just has to be in my head, it can be any arbitrarily undecidable dependent typing.
2025-09-01 01:36:20 +0200 <monochrom> I write typed code in my head, then perform type erasure when I spit out shell scripts or Lisp or Prolog or...
2025-09-01 01:36:17 +0200sprotte24(~sprotte24@p200300d16f15cf0019f42a7dc19cb9cd.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving)
2025-09-01 01:36:06 +0200 <jreicher> Writing something that doesn't work is a valuable learning experience.
2025-09-01 01:35:52 +0200 <twb> and also anything over 80 bytes long must be strongly typed
2025-09-01 01:35:47 +0200 <jreicher> And that's pretty much why it's OK for a first programming language.
2025-09-01 01:35:17 +0200 <twb> yeah exactly
2025-09-01 01:35:10 +0200 <jreicher> twb: My rules is weakly typed code is OK if it's OK for it to not work. :)
2025-09-01 01:35:04 +0200 <twb> But I wouldn't write scripts in it that were good enough to commit in git
2025-09-01 01:34:55 +0200trickard_(~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-09-01 01:34:50 +0200 <twb> so e.g. I do not replace bash with ghci for interactive login shell
2025-09-01 01:34:42 +0200trickard_(~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-09-01 01:34:38 +0200 <twb> jreicher: my general rule is that weakly typed code is OK if it's only going to run once
2025-09-01 01:33:56 +0200 <jreicher> twb: I feel like it's a pretty thin line between untyped and types as weak as bash or PHP.
2025-09-01 01:33:33 +0200 <twb> oh you mean "prompt engineering" as in LLM grifts, not "engineers who work quickly and efficiently"
2025-09-01 01:32:53 +0200 <EvanR> people using free LLMs dwarfs programmers
2025-09-01 01:32:25 +0200 <EvanR> I feel like we're already there
2025-09-01 01:32:12 +0200 <monochrom> Soon it will no longer matter. Prompt engineering will be the first and only language for most people, like it or not.
2025-09-01 01:32:09 +0200 <twb> jreicher: "not typed" meaning weakly typed like bash and php, or *literally* untyped, so true, 1, "" and identity: x -> x are all literally identical
2025-09-01 01:32:00 +0200 <monochrom> Sure. Let me fix my sentence then!
2025-09-01 01:31:28 +0200 <EvanR> "my first and only language" vs "the only first and only language"
2025-09-01 01:31:16 +0200 <jreicher> EvanR: FWIW I only hold this opinion for a first programming language. Later languages (and any serious work) should be typed.
2025-09-01 01:31:06 +0200 <monochrom> Oh, Python not boostrapping itself in practice hasn't stopped a whole lot of people form using it as their first and only language.
2025-09-01 01:30:17 +0200 <twb> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optics-0.1/docs/Optics.html#g:2 loosk relevant
2025-09-01 01:30:08 +0200 <EvanR> as soon as the AI code behind the scenes is written in "prompt"
2025-09-01 01:29:37 +0200 <EvanR> lol
2025-09-01 01:29:33 +0200 <monochrom> Soon it will no longer matter. Prompt engineering will be the first and only language, like it or not.
2025-09-01 01:29:29 +0200 <twb> Dumb question: when https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base64 talks about "optics" and "lenses", what does it mean? I've only seen "lens" in the context of augeas (an ocaml-y thing) configuration file parsers.
2025-09-01 01:29:17 +0200 <EvanR> I wish I had types in retrospect, in many situations
2025-09-01 01:28:55 +0200 <EvanR> disagree
2025-09-01 01:28:42 +0200twb(~twb@user/twb) twb
2025-09-01 01:27:59 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-09-01 01:25:16 +0200 <jreicher> sajenim: No, I think Haskell is quite bad as a first language. I don't think anything with such an expressive type system should be a first language.
2025-09-01 01:24:29 +0200ftzm(~ftzm@085080231172.dynamic.telenor.dk) ftzm
2025-09-01 01:24:05 +0200ftzm(~ftzm@085080231172.dynamic.telenor.dk) (Server closed connection)
2025-09-01 01:23:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-09-01 01:21:23 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@23-93-74-222.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)