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| 2025-05-07 08:19:33 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-05-07 08:18:38 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> yes, I haven't touched these for years and there's a lot to relearn |
| 2025-05-07 08:18:30 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> I managed "reproducible" servers with gentoo and binary packages |
| 2025-05-07 08:18:19 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> I think it's just a matter of what you're familiar with |
| 2025-05-07 08:18:15 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> nice! |
| 2025-05-07 08:18:07 +0200 | <dminuoso> | sm: Yes. |
| 2025-05-07 08:17:59 +0200 | haskellbridge | sm struggled to manage 2 tonight... |
| 2025-05-07 08:17:50 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> do you manage hundreds dminuoso ? |
| 2025-05-07 08:17:40 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | see? mean on pkgs is OK too |
| 2025-05-07 08:17:32 +0200 | <dminuoso> | reproducability is a red herring, honestly. |
| 2025-05-07 08:17:19 +0200 | <dminuoso> | That's the sole reason. |
| 2025-05-07 08:17:17 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | a nix fart |
| 2025-05-07 08:17:16 +0200 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: I use nix because NixOS is the sanest way to manage hundreds of servers. |
| 2025-05-07 08:16:55 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> dminuoso: so you use nix but don't care about reproducibility xD |
| 2025-05-07 08:16:43 +0200 | <dminuoso> | And not confuse build and runtime at every step of the way. |
| 2025-05-07 08:16:21 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Bowuigi: send the IO through an LLM prompt? |
| 2025-05-07 08:16:20 +0200 | <dminuoso> | What I really want is to declare template-haskell-depends and template-haskell-libraries in my foo.cabal. |
| 2025-05-07 08:15:23 +0200 | <dminuoso> | In practice if we look at the average user, the biggest issues about TH is linkage/cross-compilation related. |
| 2025-05-07 08:15:10 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> that seems to be the usual consensus when it's discussed dminuoso , I guess it's just another of those things that'll happen if ever there's money / need / focus for it |
| 2025-05-07 08:14:44 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> So what you need is a way to fake effect execution maerwald |
| 2025-05-07 08:14:00 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Where large parts of IO are just removed. |
| 2025-05-07 08:13:50 +0200 | <dminuoso> | And we could address this by offering a limited TH set and a language pragma |
| 2025-05-07 08:13:38 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I care that it's doing something useful for me, I care in that I'd love it to be better so it doesn't limit the tools (and so people don't constantly complain about it ... so boring.... :) :) |
| 2025-05-07 08:13:06 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Yes, there may be snowflake users that may look at it differently. |
| 2025-05-07 08:12:48 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> ;) |
| 2025-05-07 08:12:46 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> you mean you don't care about it |
| 2025-05-07 08:12:36 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-05-07 08:12:29 +0200 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: In large I dont expect this to actually be meaningful. |
| 2025-05-07 08:12:26 +0200 | haskellbridge | sm is another one depending on TH all the time, I don't mess with it and it doesn't mess with me. But I know it's limiting the capabilities of the tools/language/platforms |
| 2025-05-07 08:12:13 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> unless you reproduce the entire environment |
| 2025-05-07 08:12:10 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | and as always a depth of experience issue |
| 2025-05-07 08:12:05 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> well, it causes problems with reproducible build artifacts |
| 2025-05-07 08:11:43 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | dminuoso, yeah |
| 2025-05-07 08:11:40 +0200 | <dminuoso> | It's a philosophical issue. |
| 2025-05-07 08:11:33 +0200 | <dminuoso> | It's just not a practical issue that ever concerns users. |
| 2025-05-07 08:11:27 +0200 | <dminuoso> | in all my years, I have never heard a single user complain "I dont know whether this TH splice is doing network access" |
| 2025-05-07 08:11:23 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> compile time being unpredictable is GARBAGE |
| 2025-05-07 08:11:14 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> runtime being "unpredictable" is one thing and kinda expected |
| 2025-05-07 08:11:07 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | *intruding |
| 2025-05-07 08:11:03 +0200 | <dminuoso> | JuanDaugherty: I dont believe this to ever be an issue. |
| 2025-05-07 08:10:53 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | *expectation |
| 2025-05-07 08:10:26 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Which ultimately is a documentation issue. |
| 2025-05-07 08:10:07 +0200 | <dminuoso> | It sounds like a hidden advertisement for effect systems. |
| 2025-05-07 08:10:02 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Are those TH problems or staging problems? Or both? |
| 2025-05-07 08:09:55 +0200 | <dminuoso> | The argument is about as silly as saying "Dont use anything IO, we dont know what this is doing" |
| 2025-05-07 08:09:49 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | omg, rust? rly? |
| 2025-05-07 08:09:48 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> maybe TH needs bluefin! |
| 2025-05-07 08:09:31 +0200 | <dminuoso> | If we look at rust, its not as compile-time code is innately bad on the basis of not knowing what it may do. |
| 2025-05-07 08:09:20 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | *ism |
| 2025-05-07 08:09:12 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | maximalist on parade |