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| 2025-05-07 08:28:09 +0200 | <dminuoso> | But it begs the question if the number of bad programs filtered out if worth the pain. |
| 2025-05-07 08:27:40 +0200 | <dminuoso> | In hopes of filtering out more bad programs than it filters out good programs. |
| 2025-05-07 08:27:18 +0200 | <dminuoso> | effect systems exist *precisely* because they reduce composability. |
| 2025-05-07 08:27:01 +0200 | <dminuoso> | If that was true IO would be the ideal solution as it is maximally composable. |
| 2025-05-07 08:26:48 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> not that I use any |
| 2025-05-07 08:26:28 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> it's composability |
| 2025-05-07 08:26:22 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> the main selling points of effects systems isn't even avoiding bugs |
| 2025-05-07 08:25:11 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | (~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org)) |
| 2025-05-07 08:24:16 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> soo.. don't rewrite TH with bluefin/effectful then ? Too much ? |
| 2025-05-07 08:24:16 +0200 | <dminuoso> | And Haskell is great as a playground to do these experiments. |
| 2025-05-07 08:23:55 +0200 | <dminuoso> | And honestly, Ive been on that side. I had a phase where I made loads of type tricks to solve contrived bugs that I never had, and then felt good about how I had code provably absent of bugs (that I never had) |
| 2025-05-07 08:23:38 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> dminuoso: sounds like you're ok if my libraries work correctly 90% of the time. So I guess you don't mind if you get broken filepaths now and then |
| 2025-05-07 08:23:01 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@77.23.248.100) |
| 2025-05-07 08:23:00 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Or they introduce anecdotes.. |
| 2025-05-07 08:22:55 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | inventory isn even cattle |
| 2025-05-07 08:22:43 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-137-036.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-07 08:22:27 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> yup.. with bash.. (I feel like a cave man, but so be it 😂) |
| 2025-05-07 08:22:12 +0200 | <dminuoso> | People sell effect systems/deterministic things by bringing up far fetched and contrived problems, and then they go a long way to explain how their solution addresses that problem, and how bad it would be if this problem ever affected you. |
| 2025-05-07 08:21:54 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> and spawn a new one |
| 2025-05-07 08:21:47 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> you should treat servers like cattle, not like a child... if it misbehaves... shoot it |
| 2025-05-07 08:21:25 +0200 | haskellbridge | sm too, but didn't keep it |
| 2025-05-07 08:20:57 +0200 | JuanDaugherty | y |
| 2025-05-07 08:20:57 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> sm: I used that one in prod. Not a fan |
| 2025-05-07 08:20:43 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> dminuoso: are you at ZuriHac? |
| 2025-05-07 08:20:34 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> (anyone using https://hackage.haskell.org/package/propellor ?) |
| 2025-05-07 08:20:05 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> maerwald no I mean give them specific, deterministic and reproducible results without actually doing IO |
| 2025-05-07 08:19:48 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> bash setup scripts are the next step for me |
| 2025-05-07 08:19:33 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-05-07 08:18:38 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> yes, I haven't touched these for years and there's a lot to relearn |
| 2025-05-07 08:18:30 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> I managed "reproducible" servers with gentoo and binary packages |
| 2025-05-07 08:18:19 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> I think it's just a matter of what you're familiar with |
| 2025-05-07 08:18:15 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> nice! |
| 2025-05-07 08:18:07 +0200 | <dminuoso> | sm: Yes. |
| 2025-05-07 08:17:59 +0200 | haskellbridge | sm struggled to manage 2 tonight... |
| 2025-05-07 08:17:50 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> do you manage hundreds dminuoso ? |
| 2025-05-07 08:17:40 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | see? mean on pkgs is OK too |
| 2025-05-07 08:17:32 +0200 | <dminuoso> | reproducability is a red herring, honestly. |
| 2025-05-07 08:17:19 +0200 | <dminuoso> | That's the sole reason. |
| 2025-05-07 08:17:17 +0200 | <JuanDaugherty> | a nix fart |
| 2025-05-07 08:17:16 +0200 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: I use nix because NixOS is the sanest way to manage hundreds of servers. |
| 2025-05-07 08:16:55 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> dminuoso: so you use nix but don't care about reproducibility xD |
| 2025-05-07 08:16:43 +0200 | <dminuoso> | And not confuse build and runtime at every step of the way. |
| 2025-05-07 08:16:21 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Bowuigi: send the IO through an LLM prompt? |
| 2025-05-07 08:16:20 +0200 | <dminuoso> | What I really want is to declare template-haskell-depends and template-haskell-libraries in my foo.cabal. |
| 2025-05-07 08:15:23 +0200 | <dminuoso> | In practice if we look at the average user, the biggest issues about TH is linkage/cross-compilation related. |
| 2025-05-07 08:15:10 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> that seems to be the usual consensus when it's discussed dminuoso , I guess it's just another of those things that'll happen if ever there's money / need / focus for it |
| 2025-05-07 08:14:44 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> So what you need is a way to fake effect execution maerwald |
| 2025-05-07 08:14:00 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Where large parts of IO are just removed. |
| 2025-05-07 08:13:50 +0200 | <dminuoso> | And we could address this by offering a limited TH set and a language pragma |
| 2025-05-07 08:13:38 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I care that it's doing something useful for me, I care in that I'd love it to be better so it doesn't limit the tools (and so people don't constantly complain about it ... so boring.... :) :) |