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| 2026-02-13 23:23:19 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | I'm not sure we need that. It's a nice ideal, but I feel it's also an ideal that creates friction with reality in how I (and others) want to use their machines |
| 2026-02-13 23:22:27 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | So you’re saying we need something more clean… more elegant… Like pure category theory expressed as unlambda… :D |
| 2026-02-13 23:22:16 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | what in the world is "fashtech" |
| 2026-02-13 23:22:05 +0100 | <mauke> | I don't use it either, but I've heard it's fashtech-adjacent |
| 2026-02-13 23:21:55 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-13 23:21:43 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | (I don't really know what's wrong with nix because I don't use it. :) ) |
| 2026-02-13 23:21:31 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | if nothing else, to figure out what things are wrong with nix so you can further refine your ideals on how systems should work |
| 2026-02-13 23:21:04 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | It kind of sounds like you should give nix a serious try |
| 2026-02-13 23:20:51 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | at the same time, nix is a slippery slope to nixos, and the language is untyped with no good proposals for a sensible type system (so it's actually inherently untyped). :) |
| 2026-02-13 23:20:24 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | tomsmeding: As a Haskell programmer, and a supporter of the idea of the block universe, that’s of course very attractive. :) |
| 2026-02-13 23:19:50 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | which subsumes a package manager |
| 2026-02-13 23:19:41 +0100 | <geekosaur> | because, as I said, the system package manager does not serve developers, it serves the packagers |
| 2026-02-13 23:19:38 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | FluoridinatedFlu: The idea -- as a non-user, disclaimer! -- is that it tries to give you a "declarative system" |
| 2026-02-13 23:19:06 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | you can still just use stuff on the system without declaring that as a dependency in your package. |
| 2026-02-13 23:19:04 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | tomsmeding: That sounds indeed nice. So is it basically a more advanced package manager? |
| 2026-02-13 23:19:04 +0100 | <geekosaur> | which is why I said this only works with nixos, since at present only that guarantees that the same system package manager can serve both your and the packagers' purposes simultaneously |
| 2026-02-13 23:18:49 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | regardless of how antique apt is, I don't see how RPM is in any way better on the points relevant to the discussion here |
| 2026-02-13 23:18:39 +0100 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-02-13 23:18:22 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | someone else should do this, but: Nix gets you precisely this "you declare exactly your dependencies and those are what you get", plus that you don't need only a single version of some package X on your system, because everything can use their own version, transparently |
| 2026-02-13 23:18:13 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | (Like RPM) |
| 2026-02-13 23:18:01 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | tomsmeding: Ubuntu/Debian’s apt is a sad antiquated joke though. It’s more like something from 1999. |
| 2026-02-13 23:17:37 +0100 | <monochrom> | nix declares dependencies. |
| 2026-02-13 23:16:55 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | What is it with this Nix stuff? Everything I saw about it immediately put me off. Can someone tell me what its point is in one sentence, cause I feel like I didn’t get the memo *and* everyone is hiding it from me when I search for infos on it. XD |
| 2026-02-13 23:16:50 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | (apart from nix/nixos, that is) |
| 2026-02-13 23:16:37 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | With how package managers work on linux distros that I know (disclaimer: just Ubuntu and Arch, though Fedora isn't any different apart from side notes about Silverblue), this just doesn't work on Linux |
| 2026-02-13 23:16:14 +0100 | <monochrom> | But what I *really* read between the line is simply "they should do it my way". |
| 2026-02-13 23:15:30 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | :D |
| 2026-02-13 23:15:26 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | (1.) sounds like you should be a nix user; (2.) _really_ sounds like you should be a nix user; (3.) is a logical consequence once you're a nix user |
| 2026-02-13 23:15:15 +0100 | <monochrom> | That would be called "nix". |
| 2026-02-13 23:15:02 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | FluoridinatedFlu: is that sort of accurate? |
| 2026-02-13 23:14:53 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: I think they mean this: 1. a program should declare all its dependencies and the system should (somehow) ensure that you get no more than you declare. 2. The system package manager is suited for this job. 3. Hence, all development tools should be a shim (ish) over the system package manager. |
| 2026-02-13 23:13:55 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | Ah, thanks |
| 2026-02-13 23:13:27 +0100 | <geekosaur> | okay, so did I completely misunderstand the thrust of "Windows or something else that tries to not integrate with the package manager"? your current discussion doesn't seem to mesh with its implication |
| 2026-02-13 23:13:06 +0100 | <mauke> | yes |
| 2026-02-13 23:12:59 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | I thought they were replies to my pre-connection-break questions. |
| 2026-02-13 23:12:44 +0100 | <mauke> | we have public logs, see /topic |
| 2026-02-13 23:12:26 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | Well, that’s precisely when my client lost the connection, it seems. XD |
| 2026-02-13 23:11:52 +0100 | <mauke> | geekosaur: not just read, but also wrote! |
| 2026-02-13 23:11:17 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | geekosaur: A typical case is websites that assumed the background was white, and only set the font to black. Resulting in black on black text in dark mode, until that became a thing for everyone else too. |
| 2026-02-13 23:11:15 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@89-27-10-140.bb.dnainternet.fi) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2026-02-13 23:11:08 +0100 | <geekosaur> | did you by any chance read what started this discussion? |
| 2026-02-13 23:11:07 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-02-13 23:10:37 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | geekosaur: No, I think we misunderstand each other. Basically I’m saying by having to actually declare all your dependencies and assumptions in your installer or whatever, you won’t fall into the pit of your program assuming things that it shouldn’t. |
| 2026-02-13 23:10:29 +0100 | <geekosaur> | (i.e. supports multiple versions of things concurrently installed and the OS gets to stick to what it wants without disturbing your work) |
| 2026-02-13 23:09:59 +0100 | prdak | (~Thunderbi@user/prdak) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-02-13 23:09:58 +0100 | <geekosaur> | hackport etc. aren't enough unless your OS is nixos |
| 2026-02-13 23:09:29 +0100 | <geekosaur> | uh, no, that's the reverse of what a developer needs, unless your idea of a prerequisite for development is to build your own OS |
| 2026-02-13 23:09:25 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | They should provide converters like hackport. |
| 2026-02-13 23:09:01 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | OSes should not allow other package managers that work around the OS at all. |
| 2026-02-13 23:08:24 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | init. :) |