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| 2026-02-13 23:18:22 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | someone else should do this, but: Nix gets you precisely this "you declare exactly your dependencies and those are what you get", plus that you don't need only a single version of some package X on your system, because everything can use their own version, transparently |
| 2026-02-13 23:18:13 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | (Like RPM) |
| 2026-02-13 23:18:01 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | tomsmeding: Ubuntu/Debian’s apt is a sad antiquated joke though. It’s more like something from 1999. |
| 2026-02-13 23:17:37 +0100 | <monochrom> | nix declares dependencies. |
| 2026-02-13 23:16:55 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | What is it with this Nix stuff? Everything I saw about it immediately put me off. Can someone tell me what its point is in one sentence, cause I feel like I didn’t get the memo *and* everyone is hiding it from me when I search for infos on it. XD |
| 2026-02-13 23:16:50 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | (apart from nix/nixos, that is) |
| 2026-02-13 23:16:37 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | With how package managers work on linux distros that I know (disclaimer: just Ubuntu and Arch, though Fedora isn't any different apart from side notes about Silverblue), this just doesn't work on Linux |
| 2026-02-13 23:16:14 +0100 | <monochrom> | But what I *really* read between the line is simply "they should do it my way". |
| 2026-02-13 23:15:30 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | :D |
| 2026-02-13 23:15:26 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | (1.) sounds like you should be a nix user; (2.) _really_ sounds like you should be a nix user; (3.) is a logical consequence once you're a nix user |
| 2026-02-13 23:15:15 +0100 | <monochrom> | That would be called "nix". |
| 2026-02-13 23:15:02 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | FluoridinatedFlu: is that sort of accurate? |
| 2026-02-13 23:14:53 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: I think they mean this: 1. a program should declare all its dependencies and the system should (somehow) ensure that you get no more than you declare. 2. The system package manager is suited for this job. 3. Hence, all development tools should be a shim (ish) over the system package manager. |
| 2026-02-13 23:13:55 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | Ah, thanks |
| 2026-02-13 23:13:27 +0100 | <geekosaur> | okay, so did I completely misunderstand the thrust of "Windows or something else that tries to not integrate with the package manager"? your current discussion doesn't seem to mesh with its implication |
| 2026-02-13 23:13:06 +0100 | <mauke> | yes |
| 2026-02-13 23:12:59 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | I thought they were replies to my pre-connection-break questions. |
| 2026-02-13 23:12:44 +0100 | <mauke> | we have public logs, see /topic |
| 2026-02-13 23:12:26 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | Well, that’s precisely when my client lost the connection, it seems. XD |
| 2026-02-13 23:11:52 +0100 | <mauke> | geekosaur: not just read, but also wrote! |
| 2026-02-13 23:11:17 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | geekosaur: A typical case is websites that assumed the background was white, and only set the font to black. Resulting in black on black text in dark mode, until that became a thing for everyone else too. |
| 2026-02-13 23:11:15 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@89-27-10-140.bb.dnainternet.fi) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2026-02-13 23:11:08 +0100 | <geekosaur> | did you by any chance read what started this discussion? |
| 2026-02-13 23:11:07 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-02-13 23:10:37 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | geekosaur: No, I think we misunderstand each other. Basically I’m saying by having to actually declare all your dependencies and assumptions in your installer or whatever, you won’t fall into the pit of your program assuming things that it shouldn’t. |
| 2026-02-13 23:10:29 +0100 | <geekosaur> | (i.e. supports multiple versions of things concurrently installed and the OS gets to stick to what it wants without disturbing your work) |
| 2026-02-13 23:09:59 +0100 | prdak | (~Thunderbi@user/prdak) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-02-13 23:09:58 +0100 | <geekosaur> | hackport etc. aren't enough unless your OS is nixos |
| 2026-02-13 23:09:29 +0100 | <geekosaur> | uh, no, that's the reverse of what a developer needs, unless your idea of a prerequisite for development is to build your own OS |
| 2026-02-13 23:09:25 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | They should provide converters like hackport. |
| 2026-02-13 23:09:01 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | OSes should not allow other package managers that work around the OS at all. |
| 2026-02-13 23:08:24 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | init. :) |
| 2026-02-13 23:08:24 +0100 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | geekosaur: It’s better to see it like this: Your development *staging* area is not your *production* area. Don’t assume *anything* about your production area. Ideally, your staging area should be entirely its own namespace, chroot, everything. I learned that when trying to make a “OS” out of just the LInux kernel and a Haskell program as |
| 2026-02-13 23:07:58 +0100 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2026-02-13 23:07:06 +0100 | <geekosaur> | also why ghcup (and before it stack), rustup, etc. exist |
| 2026-02-13 23:06:06 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-02-13 23:05:31 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 2026-02-13 23:05:19 +0100 | prdak | (~Thunderbi@user/prdak) prdak |
| 2026-02-13 23:05:14 +0100 | <geekosaur> | that also, but you're also still stuck with that the global package manager isn't guaranteed to e.g. install recent enough versions of things you might want, it installs dependencies for whatever versions of end user packages they want to package |
| 2026-02-13 23:04:41 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | (ex: npm, pip, the perl things, etc.) |
| 2026-02-13 23:04:22 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | or: if you use a package manager that is not the system package manager, don't use it to globally install stuff |
| 2026-02-13 23:04:07 +0100 | <geekosaur> | " |
| 2026-02-13 23:03:56 +0100 | takuan | (~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-02-13 23:03:53 +0100 | <geekosaur> | so the real moral here is "regardless of language, don't trust the global package manager if you want to do development, because those packages aren't there for your use |
| 2026-02-13 23:03:06 +0100 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 2026-02-13 23:02:59 +0100 | <tomsmeding> | isn't this the same with any language runtime that tries to have its own global package database? NodeJS (npm) has the same issue |
| 2026-02-13 23:02:23 +0100 | <geekosaur> | the same with python used to be true of fedora untill they started installing a private python setup just for their tools to use |
| 2026-02-13 23:02:05 +0100 | ElementalFluorin | FluoridinatedFlu |
| 2026-02-13 23:02:01 +0100 | <geekosaur> | you can still break a debian/ubuntu installation pretty badly with a global install of an unexpected version of the wrong perl module(s) |
| 2026-02-13 23:01:47 +0100 | ElementalFluorin | (~Elemental@2a02:3035:613:b707:f5e7:32a2:68a3:74db) |