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| 2024-07-08 08:43:45 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@77.22.252.56) |
| 2024-07-08 08:36:42 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-07-08 08:31:52 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-07-08 08:22:37 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optics-vl-0.2.1/docs/Optics-VL.html |
| 2024-07-08 08:16:31 +0200 | takuan | (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) |
| 2024-07-08 08:15:33 +0200 | <jackdk> | so it means that VL optics are usable by both? good to know |
| 2024-07-08 08:15:01 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> jackdk: optics support van laarhoven too. So you can still do that as a library author |
| 2024-07-08 08:12:57 +0200 | <jackdk> | They show up as additional messages but at least it's clear that it's an edit. |
| 2024-07-08 08:12:31 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> though with the latest bridge I seem to remember the policy was that matrix edits are fine |
| 2024-07-08 08:11:24 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> oops, irc, sorry |
| 2024-07-08 08:11:04 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> * package reviews and ecosystem |
| 2024-07-08 08:06:43 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> and making that attribute more visible (eg on hackage and flora and in reviews/ecosystem overviews) will help encourage that |
| 2024-07-08 08:03:24 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> more generally I think some haskell libs with good docs do exist, |
| 2024-07-08 08:03:20 +0200 | <jackdk> | The main difficulty I have with optics is that I really like being able to provide lenses without incurring the `lens` dependency |
| 2024-07-08 08:02:23 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> optics is a lens alternative with good docs, I've heard |
| 2024-07-08 07:51:06 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> But I doubt that will happen without an engaged contributor who cares about this specifically |
| 2024-07-08 07:50:35 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> The maintainer of lens gives away commit rights willingly. So you probably can contribute such documentation easily |
| 2024-07-08 07:41:22 +0200 | <lain`> | even if someone can figure out how something works from looking at the types, that doesn't mean it won't take extra time compared to it being explained well alongside examples |
| 2024-07-08 07:40:54 +0200 | <lain`> | and i think even for people who understand it, good documentation will make it easier to learn the library |
| 2024-07-08 07:40:10 +0200 | <lain`> | if someone doesn't *want* to provide documentation aimed at people who don't follow the research of the subject, that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that they could. and that many other things do. |
| 2024-07-08 07:38:29 +0200 | <lain`> | it's not like doing so would make it harder for people who know a lot about lenses to use the library |
| 2024-07-08 07:38:08 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) |
| 2024-07-08 07:36:28 +0200 | <lain`> | i mean, i feel like that's kind of just an excuse to provide poor documentation |
| 2024-07-08 07:33:51 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> lain`: Someone who isn't into the academic foundations of lenses. |
| 2024-07-08 07:32:58 +0200 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e72cfb54f9d6478c2267a5ca.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2024-07-08 07:32:28 +0200 | <jackdk> | https://diataxis.fr/ has an interesting breakdown on the front page, differentiating "tutorials", "how-to guides", "explanations" and "reference material" |
| 2024-07-08 07:32:22 +0200 | <lain`> | beginner to haskell? |
| 2024-07-08 07:32:17 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> But you can write a beginner friendly lens library |
| 2024-07-08 07:32:14 +0200 | <lain`> | what does "beginner" even mean |
| 2024-07-08 07:32:07 +0200 | <lain`> | i mean |
| 2024-07-08 07:31:58 +0200 | <Axman6> | Yep |
| 2024-07-08 07:31:45 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> And it wasn't written for beginners anyway. The API doesn't consider "beginner issues". It's just not the use case |
| 2024-07-08 07:31:33 +0200 | <Axman6> | Sure, I'm not saying things can't be improved, but that's actually quite a lot of motivation needed to explain why they even should exist in the first place |
| 2024-07-08 07:31:00 +0200 | <lain`> | i mean, you can look at the racket lens docs https://docs.racket-lang.org/lens/lens-intro.html#%28tech._lens%29 |
| 2024-07-08 07:30:56 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> The documentation of lens just isn't very good for beginners |
| 2024-07-08 07:30:35 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Axman6: don't agree |
| 2024-07-08 07:30:23 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-07-08 07:29:48 +0200 | <Axman6> | Some things are just complex ideas, and expecting a half page explanation that's useful for using something isn't always going to be possible |
| 2024-07-08 07:29:43 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> lain`: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.3.2/docs/Control-Lens-Lens.html#v:lens |
| 2024-07-08 07:29:17 +0200 | <Axman6> | it's not a thing that a README is going to be able to clearly explain, it's an idea that has taken up many hour long talks explaining |
| 2024-07-08 07:28:46 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) |
| 2024-07-08 07:28:43 +0200 | <Axman6> | What is a lens? |
| 2024-07-08 07:28:26 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-07-08 07:25:02 +0200 | krei-se | (~krei-se@p5085d24b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2024-07-08 07:24:09 +0200 | krei-se | (~krei-se@p5085d24b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-07-08 07:18:27 +0200 | <lain`> | the lens readme doesn't even say what a lens *is*. |
| 2024-07-08 07:13:28 +0200 | <lain`> | even if what a function literally does is understandable, why it's there and what place it has in the design isn't always obvious. i think that's the kind of thing that examples and tutorials can help with. |
| 2024-07-08 07:12:41 +0200 | <lain`> | i mean, people won't nessecarily intuit the depth, even if it's intended to be used that way by the authors. |
| 2024-07-08 07:08:16 +0200 | <Axman6> | lain`: many libraries rely heavily on types, and lens is a good example of that; many of the types tell you a lot about what they could possibly do, without needing to explain much in words - but learning how to know what the types mean is something that takes time and use of the library. The basics of lens are trivial, but it is a library with a very broad range of applications, and in many cases a lot of depth too. |
| 2024-07-08 06:55:59 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |