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| 2024-06-01 19:29:45 +0200 | <danza_> | i am glad for you, and bad books is hardly going to be a problem. Literature shrinks slowly |
| 2024-06-01 19:28:21 +0200 | <Midjak> | In any case, there are people who really want to learn, and I'm one of them. |
| 2024-06-01 19:26:17 +0200 | <Midjak> | I don't know I have the feeling I'm running out of them, but on the other hand I'm becoming more and more demanding. |
| 2024-06-01 19:25:19 +0200 | sefidel | (~sefidel@user/sefidel) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-06-01 19:22:15 +0200 | <Midjak> | On the other hand, there were a lot of bad books back then too. |
| 2024-06-01 19:20:21 +0200 | <danza_> | i see, i am a bit skeptical about that analysis Midjak |
| 2024-06-01 19:19:23 +0200 | <lxsameer> | EvanR: monochrom thanks for the insight folks. To share my point of view as an haskell noob. I value experience of others. I like to have different views on things from libs to lang features it helps me grow |
| 2024-06-01 19:19:04 +0200 | danza | (~francesco@151.47.238.157) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-01 19:18:42 +0200 | <Midjak> | I mean book are easy to find in their numeric version on internet. So authors and editors have no interest to publish book |
| 2024-06-01 19:17:32 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-06-01 19:17:18 +0200 | <danza_> | do you think that was caused by copying? Where by "copying" you mean? |
| 2024-06-01 19:15:55 +0200 | danza_ | (~francesco@151.47.230.180) |
| 2024-06-01 19:14:36 +0200 | <Midjak> | yes too bad. the problem is also the publishing crisis caused by copying. It's a real problem. 10 years ago, we had some very good books. |
| 2024-06-01 19:13:33 +0200 | <danza> | it's sad but i must recall there haven't really been many incentives for free quality |
| 2024-06-01 19:12:33 +0200 | <monochrom> | No, Midjak, IMO that's the effect not the cause. First, a couple decades ago we got an influx of people who didn't want to learn, and they became the majority. Then, with no market for good docs, good docs went extinct. |
| 2024-06-01 19:11:32 +0200 | <danza> | the number of libraries depends on their granularity and, albeit "library" as a concept was created when they used to be bigger, i see no reason why they would forever stay so |
| 2024-06-01 19:10:50 +0200 | <monochrom> | So, s/some tools/some ways of life/ |
| 2024-06-01 19:10:45 +0200 | <Midjak> | maybe for this reason |
| 2024-06-01 19:10:30 +0200 | <monochrom> | And even when I speak against cargo-culting I am sure I can stop no one. |
| 2024-06-01 19:10:10 +0200 | <Midjak> | good documentation is just hard to find |
| 2024-06-01 19:09:51 +0200 | <monochrom> | Not my fault that the rust people chose that name. It's their pun. :) |
| 2024-06-01 19:09:18 +0200 | <EvanR> | package systems, cargo culting, I see what you did there |
| 2024-06-01 19:09:11 +0200 | <Midjak> | I don't feel most of beginner refuse to learn and prefer apply recipe from experts. It's not my case anyway |
| 2024-06-01 19:09:01 +0200 | <monochrom> | Package systems get lateral damage from me because, rightfully, a serious project is very likely to need 100 libraries from the community repo. But then cargo-culting implies that the beginner mimics that too. |
| 2024-06-01 19:08:55 +0200 | <danza> | but some tools are designed not to require learning |
| 2024-06-01 19:08:53 +0200 | yin | (~yin@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-06-01 19:07:43 +0200 | <monochrom> | I am not against package systems. I am against s/learn/cargo-cult/ |
| 2024-06-01 19:07:18 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-06-01 19:06:45 +0200 | <danza> | i don't know, i feel a bit odd to mention hype about package systems. Maybe there is something i am missing here, but they seem to be that type of infrastructure that hardly gets undeserved credit? |
| 2024-06-01 19:05:50 +0200 | lisq | (~quassel@lis.moe) |
| 2024-06-01 19:05:40 +0200 | lisq | (~quassel@lis.moe) () |
| 2024-06-01 19:02:14 +0200 | <danza> | just thrashing of course |
| 2024-06-01 19:01:12 +0200 | <danza> | careful you are fueling the hyped-package-systems hypothesis |
| 2024-06-01 19:01:00 +0200 | <Midjak> | just kidding of course |
| 2024-06-01 19:00:19 +0200 | <Midjak> | cargo is a good package system :-) |
| 2024-06-01 18:59:40 +0200 | <danza> | the rest of the beginners just expect to click the right buttons on what they cargo-culted long ago |
| 2024-06-01 18:58:57 +0200 | <Midjak> | Yes I'm just starting to familiarize myself with newtype, so I think I'm going to make some progress here. |
| 2024-06-01 18:58:30 +0200 | <monochrom> | It's a quick way of making money. I just don't subscribe to that attitude. |
| 2024-06-01 18:58:06 +0200 | <yin> | Midjak: depending on the current state of dependent haskell (which i'm not sure about) you can also explore some interesting type-level possibilites |
| 2024-06-01 18:57:53 +0200 | <monochrom> | I can see the attraction of that religion. Many beginners expect to just cargo-cult an existing complete project and just change 5 lines of code. |
| 2024-06-01 18:56:43 +0200 | <EvanR> | horse racing and we're basing all wagers on the name of the horse xD |
| 2024-06-01 18:56:17 +0200 | <Midjak> | thanks yin I will read this paper. I found this article which give a good idea of refinement types http://nikita-volkov.github.io/refined/ But I will read this paper thank you |
| 2024-06-01 18:56:16 +0200 | <EvanR> | because all languages are the same and only differ in the library support community and hype train |
| 2024-06-01 18:55:15 +0200 | <monochrom> | For example how the js and node.js people, the rust people, the java people, ... everyone, tell beginners "day 1: learn our package system, learn our project file format". As if the priority is not to learn the language itself first. |
| 2024-06-01 18:55:11 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-06-01 18:54:53 +0200 | <glguy> | Though in this case complex effect systems aren't a best practice for elite experts though they're a more advanced topic |
| 2024-06-01 18:54:31 +0200 | <lxsameer> | I see what you mean |
| 2024-06-01 18:53:52 +0200 | <monochrom> | But I can also see that in "the real world" there is a religion that tells beginners to rush ahead, skip basics, jump straight to "best practice of advanced most elite experts". |
| 2024-06-01 18:53:17 +0200 | <lxsameer> | thank you |
| 2024-06-01 18:52:52 +0200 | <monochrom> | I think that danza means that a beginner need not worry about effect systems so early. |