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| 2024-05-13 21:21:22 +0200 | <mauke> | which box do you open? |
| 2024-05-13 21:21:18 +0200 | <mauke> | also, there are inscriptions on the boxes or whatever |
| 2024-05-13 21:21:11 +0200 | <mauke> | I am a violent lunatic who hates your guts. I have trapped you in a locked room. In the room, there are two boxes. One of them contains a key that lets you out, the other contains a bomb that goes off when you open the box and blows you to bits. |
| 2024-05-13 21:20:48 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 2024-05-13 21:20:30 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-186-214.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2024-05-13 21:19:58 +0200 | <mauke> | I think I need to reformulate this problem a bit |
| 2024-05-13 21:18:49 +0200 | <ncf> | mauke: if i were to formalise this in, say, Agda, i would postulate that there is a boolean type Casket = gold | silver, a predicate HasPainting : Casket → DecProp such that HasPainting(gold) ∨ HasPainting(silver), a DecProp Gold such that Gold ≃ ¬HasPainting(gold), and a DecProp Silver such that Silver ≃ ExactlyOne Gold Silver, and then proceed to show that HasPainting(gold) holds |
| 2024-05-13 21:18:16 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | it clearly threw mauke off |
| 2024-05-13 21:18:13 +0200 | zzz | (~yin@user/zero) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-05-13 21:18:08 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | which is admittedly unrelated, but at the level of preciseness that you need in such a context |
| 2024-05-13 21:17:51 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | there is the implicit "the" |
| 2024-05-13 21:17:38 +0200 | <monochrom> | Yeah there is the assumption that this self-reference has a solution. |
| 2024-05-13 21:15:45 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | although I agree that if you start writing self-referential sentences, you better be damn clear about what exactly you mean |
| 2024-05-13 21:15:26 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | this discussion was about interpreting the puzzle's text too literally so that you miss the point of the puzzle |
| 2024-05-13 21:14:56 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I don't think this discussion was about that :) |
| 2024-05-13 21:14:36 +0200 | <monochrom> | But I guess I am speaking to a community that even refuse to use booleans for logic at all. |
| 2024-05-13 21:14:11 +0200 | <monochrom> | I was just hoping to show that it is beautiful that boolean (==) makes a monoid. |
| 2024-05-13 21:13:50 +0200 | <mauke> | no, a continuum hypothesis |
| 2024-05-13 21:13:48 +0200 | rosco | (~rosco@yp-146-6.tm.net.my) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2024-05-13 21:13:47 +0200 | <ncf> | "this sentence is true" denotes a fixed point of the identity. in classical logic there are two: true and false |
| 2024-05-13 21:13:24 +0200 | <ncf> | do i need to slap you with a fixed point |
| 2024-05-13 21:13:06 +0200 | <mauke> | they are the same world |
| 2024-05-13 21:12:55 +0200 | <ncf> | both worlds are possible |
| 2024-05-13 21:12:50 +0200 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-186-214.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) |
| 2024-05-13 21:12:49 +0200 | <ncf> | it can be either |
| 2024-05-13 21:12:47 +0200 | <ncf> | its' not both true and false |
| 2024-05-13 21:12:37 +0200 | <mauke> | "who cares" is not a truth value |
| 2024-05-13 21:12:30 +0200 | <mauke> | in one case, the silver inscription is neither true nor false (paradox), in the other, the silver inscription is both true and false |
| 2024-05-13 21:12:29 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | two possible universes, but the solution of where the portrait is doesn't depend on that choice |
| 2024-05-13 21:12:13 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | there are -- gold is false, silver is either true or false |
| 2024-05-13 21:12:05 +0200 | <ncf> | yes: portrait in gold casket, gold casket lying, silver casket who cares |
| 2024-05-13 21:11:45 +0200 | waleee | (~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) |
| 2024-05-13 21:11:41 +0200 | <mauke> | if both inscriptions are required to have a truth value, no solutions are possible |
| 2024-05-13 21:11:27 +0200 | <ncf> | the portrait is in the gold casket |
| 2024-05-13 21:11:18 +0200 | ncf | checks page again |
| 2024-05-13 21:11:00 +0200 | <ncf> | your argument shows that only two universes are possible, and in those two the thing is in the thing |
| 2024-05-13 21:10:59 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I think doubting the validity of the inscriptions misses the point of the puzzle :p |
| 2024-05-13 21:10:49 +0200 | <ncf> | one bit for the position of the thing, and one bit for the truth of each sentence |
| 2024-05-13 21:10:37 +0200 | <ncf> | mauke: think of it this way: there are 2^3 = 8 universes |
| 2024-05-13 21:10:27 +0200 | <ncf> | (as in, have a truth value) |
| 2024-05-13 21:10:21 +0200 | lisbeths | (uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2024-05-13 21:10:08 +0200 | <mauke> | doesn't affect their contents in any way |
| 2024-05-13 21:10:03 +0200 | <mauke> | but I can write all kinds of things on caskets |
| 2024-05-13 21:09:50 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | "this thing is true but it's also not true" |
| 2024-05-13 21:09:48 +0200 | <mauke> | sure |
| 2024-05-13 21:09:40 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | isn't that kind of the semantical definition of a contradiction |
| 2024-05-13 21:09:23 +0200 | <mauke> | it's a paradox |
| 2024-05-13 21:09:21 +0200 | <ncf> | the hidden piece of information is that both sentences are meaningful |
| 2024-05-13 21:09:05 +0200 | <ncf> | yeah |
| 2024-05-13 21:09:01 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: isn't a self-refuting statement a contradiction? |