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| 2026-05-31 02:29:35 +0000 | <jreicher> | lisbeths: there are (at least) two different domains of lambda calculus evaluation performance. One is the calculus itself, i.e. some evaluation orders are shorter than others. In the K-calculus, some evaluations don't terminate at all. The term "lazy" evaluation is sometimes used (incorrectly, in my opinion) to refer to evaluation order. You should make sure you're doing normal order evaluation. That's kind of the bare minimum for a |
| 2026-05-31 02:29:35 +0000 | <jreicher> | machine. Next is the implementation itself... |
| 2026-05-31 02:30:01 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 02:30:13 +0000 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex |
| 2026-05-31 02:30:21 +0000 | <jreicher> | For that there are (at least) three kinds of optimisation. One is tail call optimisation. Another is fast currying. And then another is lazy evaluation, which is the memoisation of results. |
| 2026-05-31 02:31:05 +0000 | <jreicher> | And that's not even covering how you might represent the result of a beta reduction. The expensive way to do it is to generate a new lambda expression, but if performance is not a consideration there's actually nothing wrong with that. The use of environments, etc. is really just an optimisation. |
| 2026-05-31 02:32:16 +0000 | <jreicher> | Memoisation of results depends a bit on whether you are reducing under abstractions. I've never seen an implementation of that, but it's sometimes called "full laziness". Would be cool if someone did it. |
| 2026-05-31 02:33:24 +0000 | <jreicher> | But for a really efficient implementation you need to figure out fast currying. In some ways it's the most difficult of the three. |
| 2026-05-31 02:34:37 +0000 | <lisbeths> | you can write lazy algorithms in lc by suspending the application of something and storing all the arguments in a list. it doesnt have to be built into the interpreter |
| 2026-05-31 02:35:08 +0000 | <lisbeths> | im more talking about how to get fast arrays in lc |
| 2026-05-31 02:36:26 +0000 | Fijxu | (~Fijxu@user/fijxu) (Quit: XD!!) |
| 2026-05-31 02:37:10 +0000 | Fijxu | (~Fijxu@user/fijxu) fijxu |
| 2026-05-31 02:37:51 +0000 | <jreicher> | lisbeths: you don't store the arguments in a list. The lambda calculus expression IS the lsit. |
| 2026-05-31 02:41:04 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 02:45:55 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 02:56:41 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 02:59:04 +0000 | spew | (~spew@user/spew) (Quit: nyaa~) |
| 2026-05-31 02:59:22 +0000 | spew | (~spew@user/spew) spew |
| 2026-05-31 03:01:52 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 03:03:42 +0000 | <jreicher> | lisbeths: thought about what you want to do a little more and I've had an idea. Have you tried using arrays efficiently in Haskell, without re-implementing lambda calculus evaluation? |
| 2026-05-31 03:12:25 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-05-31 03:33:44 +0000 | Inline | (~noOne@ipservice-092-208-182-236.092.208.pools.vodafone-ip.de) Inline |
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| 2026-05-31 05:56:37 +0000 | lisbeths | (uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2026-05-31 05:58:44 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-05-31 06:16:54 +0000 | lisbeths | (uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) lisbeths |
| 2026-05-31 06:24:45 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-05-31 06:48:20 +0000 | vanishingideal | (~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal |
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| 2026-05-31 06:53:42 +0000 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 2026-05-31 06:55:55 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-05-31 06:57:52 +0000 | tcard | (~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303) |
| 2026-05-31 07:01:02 +0000 | tt1231607019780 | (~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:a4f6:acff:fe95:3803) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
| 2026-05-31 07:02:42 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 07:02:59 +0000 | myxos | (~myxos@67-1-178-42.tcso.qwest.net) myxokephale |
| 2026-05-31 07:03:11 +0000 | tt1231607019780 | (~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:a4f6:acff:fe95:3803) tt1231 |
| 2026-05-31 07:03:45 +0000 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores |
| 2026-05-31 07:04:11 +0000 | zzshork | (~zzshork@67.189.145.231) (Changing host) |
| 2026-05-31 07:04:11 +0000 | zzshork | (~zzshork@user/zzshork) zzshork |
| 2026-05-31 07:05:00 +0000 | zzshork | (~zzshork@user/zzshork) () |
| 2026-05-31 07:10:23 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-05-31 07:18:34 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:43a1:dfae:d3d:489e) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 07:19:00 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:e607:1510:9460:dc5c) |
| 2026-05-31 07:26:07 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 07:29:19 +0000 | m | (~travltux@user/travltux) (Quit: WeeChat 4.7.2) |
| 2026-05-31 07:31:04 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 07:31:19 +0000 | m | (~travltux@user/travltux) travltux |
| 2026-05-31 07:31:42 +0000 | emilym | (~Thunderbi@user/emilym) emilym |
| 2026-05-31 07:32:07 +0000 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) peterbecich |
| 2026-05-31 07:40:40 +0000 | emilym | (~Thunderbi@user/emilym) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 07:41:55 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 07:44:44 +0000 | castan | (~castan@188.26.39.158) |
| 2026-05-31 07:44:45 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:e607:1510:9460:dc5c) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 07:45:08 +0000 | <castan> | what's the point of the Foldable instance of pairs |
| 2026-05-31 07:45:13 +0000 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:1e8e:69be:97e9:df50) |
| 2026-05-31 07:45:38 +0000 | <castan> | and why isn't there an instance for ((,,) a b) |
| 2026-05-31 07:46:58 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 266 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 07:47:21 +0000 | <Rembane> | castan: It's quite good if you know about it. One concrete example is that you want to sort on the first element and then do things on the second element and throw away the first element. |
| 2026-05-31 07:53:39 +0000 | <castan> | I guess it makes sense if passing pairs to a function expecting any foldable |
| 2026-05-31 07:54:32 +0000 | <castan> | otherwise the instance itself is trivial |
| 2026-05-31 07:56:45 +0000 | <Rembane> | Yeah, the more boring answer is: what would it otherwise look like? |
| 2026-05-31 07:57:40 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 07:59:10 +0000 | <castan> | fair, but then I would have expected Foldable instances for higher arity tuples as well |
| 2026-05-31 07:59:48 +0000 | <Rembane> | Which element would you write Foldable instances for in higher arity tuples? |
| 2026-05-31 08:00:00 +0000 | <mauke> | there is only one option |
| 2026-05-31 08:00:05 +0000 | <castan> | that would be the last |
| 2026-05-31 08:02:43 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 08:03:02 +0000 | <Rembane> | mauke: Highlander tuple? |
| 2026-05-31 08:03:08 +0000 | <castan> | I mean Functor has instances for tuples up to 7 elements |
| 2026-05-31 08:03:55 +0000 | <mauke> | :t foldMap |
| 2026-05-31 08:03:57 +0000 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m |
| 2026-05-31 08:04:08 +0000 | <mauke> | foldMap f (_, _, x) = f x |
| 2026-05-31 08:10:01 +0000 | <Leary> | castan: You have to stop somewhere, and it's pretty arbitrary wherever you do. We generally pretend "big" tuples don't exist, but the standard for "big" varies from person to person, so cut-off arity isn't consistent from class to class. |
| 2026-05-31 08:11:22 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 08:11:54 +0000 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e554a1582e2fc899958d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2026-05-31 08:11:56 +0000 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e554a1582e2fc899958d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2026-05-31 08:15:34 +0000 | <castan> | Leary: that's understandable, but it's a bit comical too |
| 2026-05-31 08:15:49 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 08:16:15 +0000 | <castan> | Eq cuts off at 15, Functor at 7, Applicative at 4, Foldable at 2 |
| 2026-05-31 08:16:38 +0000 | <castan> | at least on ghc 9.6.7 |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:35 +0000 | <mauke> | > (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) == (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:36 +0000 | <lambdabot> | No instance for ‘Eq |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:37 +0000 | <lambdabot> | (Integer, Integer, Integer, Integer, Integer, Integer, In... |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:37 +0000 | <lambdabot> | Integer, Integer, Integer, Integer, Integer, Integer, In... |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:49 +0000 | <mauke> | > (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) == (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:51 +0000 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:57 +0000 | <mauke> | > (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) > (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) |
| 2026-05-31 08:17:59 +0000 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 2026-05-31 08:22:55 +0000 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 08:26:45 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@62.45.136.136) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 08:28:13 +0000 | <mesaoptimizer> | > 1 ++ 1 |
| 2026-05-31 08:28:15 +0000 | <lambdabot> | No instance for ‘Num [()]’ arising from a use of ‘e_111’ |
| 2026-05-31 08:28:15 +0000 | <lambdabot> | In the expression: e_111 |
| 2026-05-31 08:28:15 +0000 | <lambdabot> | In the first argument of ‘show_M58322371133546511351’, namely |
| 2026-05-31 08:28:48 +0000 | <mesaoptimizer> | > length (1, 2) |
| 2026-05-31 08:28:49 +0000 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 2026-05-31 08:29:00 +0000 | <mesaoptimizer> | yes, this is my favorite behavior of Haskell |
| 2026-05-31 08:29:10 +0000 | <mesaoptimizer> | > length (1, 2, 3) |
| 2026-05-31 08:29:12 +0000 | <lambdabot> | No instance for ‘Foldable ((,,) Integer Integer)’ |
| 2026-05-31 08:29:12 +0000 | <lambdabot> | arising from a use of ‘length’ |
| 2026-05-31 08:29:12 +0000 | <lambdabot> | In the expression: length (1, 2, 3) |
| 2026-05-31 08:29:24 +0000 | <mesaoptimizer> | perfect |
| 2026-05-31 08:29:59 +0000 | <mauke> | @let a === b = cast a == Just b |
| 2026-05-31 08:30:01 +0000 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 2026-05-31 08:33:51 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@62.45.136.136) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 08:44:36 +0000 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) toonn |
| 2026-05-31 08:44:41 +0000 | divlamir | (~divlamir@user/divlamir) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-05-31 08:44:49 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 08:45:00 +0000 | divlamir | (~divlamir@user/divlamir) divlamir |
| 2026-05-31 08:48:26 +0000 | acidjnk_new3 | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e50749931930275f1dba.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2026-05-31 08:49:30 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 08:51:57 +0000 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e554a1582e2fc899958d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 08:51:57 +0000 | acidjnk_new | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e554a1582e2fc899958d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 08:52:59 +0000 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e50749931930275f1dba.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2026-05-31 08:58:41 +0000 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2026-05-31 08:59:44 +0000 | tzh | (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz) |
| 2026-05-31 09:00:39 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 09:05:42 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 253 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 09:12:23 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 09:17:32 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 09:21:21 +0000 | castan | (~castan@188.26.39.158) (Quit: castan) |
| 2026-05-31 09:28:14 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-05-31 09:29:02 +0000 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a02:3037:6e6:d82f:4e50:ddff:fe9b:8922) CiaoSen |
| 2026-05-31 09:33:30 +0000 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2026-05-31 09:38:28 +0000 | tremon | (~tremon@83-80-159-219.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) tremon |
| 2026-05-31 09:39:00 +0000 | AlexNoo_ | (~AlexNoo@178.34.160.200) |