2026/05/17

2026-05-17 00:02:40 +0000rzrshr(~rzrshr@user/rzrshr) rzrshr
2026-05-17 00:05:40 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-17 00:21:25 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-17 00:39:39 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-17 00:44:32 +0000 <Leary> [exa]: It does if you use 'ki'.
2026-05-17 00:45:37 +0000 <Leary> tomsmeding: Relatedly, it would be cool to have that^ in the playground.
2026-05-17 00:48:53 +0000random-5(~random-je@109.166.135.135)
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2026-05-17 00:55:02 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-17 01:15:10 +0000vanishingideal(~vanishing@user/vanishingideal) vanishingideal
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2026-05-17 01:17:55 +0000tremon(~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Quit: getting boxed in)
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2026-05-17 02:24:23 +0000robertm(robertm@lattice.rojoma.com) (Quit: WeeChat 4.6.3)
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2026-05-17 06:22:18 +0000euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores) euphores
2026-05-17 06:22:52 +0000mstruebing(~mstruebin@ns343649.ip-188-165-193.eu)
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2026-05-17 06:35:25 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-17 06:52:40 +0000peterbecich(~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) peterbecich
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2026-05-17 07:00:21 +0000random-5(~random-je@109.166.135.135) (Quit: KVIrc 5.2.10 Quasar http://www.kvirc.net/)
2026-05-17 07:00:37 +0000random-jellyfish(~random-je@user/random-jellyfish) random-jellyfish
2026-05-17 07:01:02 +0000tt1231607019780(~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:a4f6:acff:fe95:3803) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
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2026-05-17 07:59:19 +0000Guest38(~Guest0@2a02-a468-6b67-0-be6c-7961-22e9-4de.fixed6.kpn.net) (Client Quit)
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2026-05-17 08:44:29 +0000tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
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2026-05-17 08:47:34 +0000wickedjargon(~user@2605:8d80:5430:df2f:c133:b5c0:44bf:d52a) wickedjargon
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2026-05-17 09:09:28 +0000acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d6e700e5126ddf7eb9d383a6ca.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
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2026-05-17 09:18:25 +0000DetourNe-(~DetourNet@user/DetourNetworkUK) DetourNetworkUK
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2026-05-17 09:22:03 +0000 <tomsmeding> Leary: my informal criterion for including stuff in the playground is that they don't pull in half the world, and are used by enough people. The former is clearly satisfied, and it's satisfied so much that I'm okay with weakening the second criterion somewhat. Can you give me some argument that you're not the only one who might use ki?
2026-05-17 09:25:26 +0000 <tomsmeding> (The major exception to this criterion, as far as I know, is including copilot, which happened because Ivan asked nicely and assured me it would have users. I have no clue if it actually does.)
2026-05-17 09:26:35 +0000 <tomsmeding> Leary: also it seems I might not be building with -threaded. Is that an issue?
2026-05-17 09:31:19 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-17 09:31:49 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net)
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2026-05-17 09:42:26 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-17 09:43:33 +0000 <Leary> tomsmeding: Not building with `-threaded` is an issue for concurrency in general, as the non-threaded runtime has various misbehaviours in this domain. Re other users, it's hard to say, but my best anecdotal evidence of popularity is that my most-liked discourse comment is telling someone to ditch 'async' for 'ki': https://discourse.haskell.org/t/dynamic-number-of-asyncs/11574/9
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2026-05-17 10:12:18 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net)
2026-05-17 10:14:23 +0000 <tomsmeding> Leary: Heh. I guess.
2026-05-17 10:15:55 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
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2026-05-17 10:28:50 +0000Eoco(~ian@128.101.131.218) Eoco
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2026-05-17 10:55:20 +0000margan(~margan@host-79-23-82-85.retail.telecomitalia.it)
2026-05-17 10:55:20 +0000 <margan> Ciao a tutti xD
2026-05-17 10:59:20 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2026-05-17 10:59:47 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:dd2:98e8:26e0:b189) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2026-05-17 11:05:58 +0000Ikosit8(~Ikosit@user/ikosit) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2026-05-17 11:06:13 +0000Ikosit8(~Ikosit@user/ikosit) Ikosit
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2026-05-17 11:35:23 +0000 <[exa]> geekosaur, Leary, tomsmeding: ok thanks. I'll simply do explicit killthreads. `ki` looks cool. :]
2026-05-17 11:36:52 +0000Beowulf(florian@sleipnir.bandrate.org) (Quit: = "")
2026-05-17 11:43:00 +0000Beowulf(florian@sleipnir.bandrate.org)
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2026-05-17 11:58:11 +0000tremon(~tremon@83.80.159.219) tremon
2026-05-17 12:00:55 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net)
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2026-05-17 12:09:16 +0000tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) (Quit: tnt1)
2026-05-17 12:14:27 +0000 <gentauro> [exa]: don't we have something similar to this -> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/fsharp/language-reference/task-expressions#adding-cancell…
2026-05-17 12:15:25 +0000 <[exa]> gentauro: oh yeah that might help
2026-05-17 12:15:25 +0000synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:247e:1500:5901:9962:827:272d) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2026-05-17 12:15:36 +0000 <[exa]> as in, killThread is essentially the "throw to cancel", right? :D
2026-05-17 12:16:33 +0000tnt1(~Thunderbi@user/tnt1) tnt1
2026-05-17 12:16:36 +0000synchromesh(~john@2406:5a00:247e:1500:311a:780a:bedd:9a52) synchromesh
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2026-05-17 13:01:08 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-17 13:17:11 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-17 13:19:44 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-05-17 13:19:53 +0000lisprs(~user@75-98-148-179.cpe.safelink.net)
2026-05-17 13:21:37 +0000smooth(~smooth@d038.lnet.fi)
2026-05-17 13:21:54 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2026-05-17 13:29:19 +0000Digit(~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-05-17 13:29:38 +0000Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) Digit
2026-05-17 13:35:24 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-17 13:38:37 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net)
2026-05-17 13:38:47 +0000nhar(~noah@76.33.110.8)
2026-05-17 13:41:25 +0000 <smooth> Hi
2026-05-17 13:41:58 +0000 <smooth> I'm new to IRC. Is there a way to read old chats?
2026-05-17 13:42:21 +0000 <Rembane> smooth: Send the command /topic and there's a link there
2026-05-17 13:42:23 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2026-05-17 13:42:52 +0000 <Rembane> smooth: also: welcome! :D
2026-05-17 13:43:37 +0000nhar(~noah@76.33.110.8) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2026-05-17 13:43:39 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2026-05-17 13:44:35 +0000smooth(~smooth@d038.lnet.fi) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2026-05-17 13:45:54 +0000__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2026-05-17 13:50:47 +0000 <tomsmeding> I always find that quit message a bit blunt
2026-05-17 13:53:53 +0000DigitteknohippieDigit
2026-05-17 13:54:31 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-17 13:59:58 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.203)
2026-05-17 14:00:06 +0000tomku(~tomku@user/tomku) tomku
2026-05-17 14:08:12 +0000nhar(~noah@76.33.110.8)
2026-05-17 14:09:00 +0000tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:dd2:98e8:26e0:b189) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2026-05-17 14:27:53 +0000 <Rembane> Very final
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2026-05-17 15:53:45 +0000pabs3Guest6419
2026-05-17 15:53:45 +0000Guest6419(~pabs3@user/pabs3) (Killed (iridium.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services)))
2026-05-17 15:54:01 +0000pabs3(~pabs3@user/pabs3) pabs3
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2026-05-17 15:59:55 +0000Digitteknohippie(~user@user/digit) Digit
2026-05-17 16:00:18 +0000weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
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2026-05-17 16:06:49 +0000pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
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2026-05-17 16:14:28 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-17 16:22:06 +0000machinedgod(~machinedg@d172-219-48-230.abhsia.telus.net) machinedgod
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2026-05-17 16:31:34 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-17 16:45:54 +0000Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) Lord_of_Life
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2026-05-17 17:01:38 +0000GdeVolpiano(~GdeVolpia@user/GdeVolpiano) GdeVolpiano
2026-05-17 17:09:53 +0000 <gentauro> [exa]: in the sense that you just request the cancellation token to shutdown nicely and it propagates everywhere.
2026-05-17 17:10:20 +0000 <gentauro> it's a really nice mechanism to ensure threads just don't die in the middle of something important
2026-05-17 17:12:35 +0000rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@70.51.99.119) rekahsoft
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2026-05-17 17:30:11 +0000Deltaspace(~Deltaspac@178.252.83.109)
2026-05-17 17:31:43 +0000rainbyte(~rainbyte@181.47.219.3) rainbyte
2026-05-17 17:34:23 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net)
2026-05-17 17:38:49 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-17 17:38:52 +0000 <[exa]> gentauro: yeah I know that, except I didn't really want to care that much :D :D
2026-05-17 17:39:15 +0000 <[exa]> (might be the case that I should)
2026-05-17 17:39:55 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2026-05-17 17:44:46 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net)
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2026-05-17 17:50:20 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2026-05-17 17:54:47 +0000 <gentauro> :)
2026-05-17 17:55:00 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2026-05-17 19:03:43 +0000Fijxu(~Fijxu@user/fijxu) fijxu
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2026-05-17 19:14:02 +0000 <srk> out of curiousity.. why is threaded runtime not the default one? I regularly shoot myself in the foot by missing -threaded
2026-05-17 19:17:42 +0000Googulator(~Googulato@94-21-138-77.pool.digikabel.hu)
2026-05-17 19:19:08 +0000rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@70.51.99.119) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2026-05-17 19:19:17 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net)
2026-05-17 19:19:20 +0000 <Clint> i could only speculate
2026-05-17 19:20:45 +0000 <EvanR> is it still not default?
2026-05-17 19:21:48 +0000 <geekosaur> still not
2026-05-17 19:22:09 +0000 <geekosaur> I gather there's some backward compat reason, even though the threaded one is generally recommended
2026-05-17 19:22:42 +0000rabbull7(~rabbull@xdsl-31-164-93-219.adslplus.ch) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2026-05-17 19:22:53 +0000rabbull7(~rabbull@xdsl-31-164-93-219.adslplus.ch)
2026-05-17 19:23:00 +0000 <geekosaur> I think it has to do with using C libraries which don't expect to be invoked across threads and the Haskell side didn't use forkOS because it's too old
2026-05-17 19:23:24 +0000 <geekosaur> (or just can't be threaded properly, as with Xlib)
2026-05-17 19:24:30 +0000 <EvanR> in certain circles it is still assumed "best practices" to never use threads ever
2026-05-17 19:24:36 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2026-05-17 19:24:41 +0000 <EvanR> single threaded is great and good
2026-05-17 19:25:13 +0000 <geekosaur> (or wayland, for that matter: trying to share the server socket across threads isn't ever going to work)
2026-05-17 19:25:14 +0000 <EvanR> maybe it crept into ghc in the primordial times
2026-05-17 19:26:11 +0000 <EvanR> if the socket is just a socket, fd, can't you just put a mutex around it
2026-05-17 19:26:41 +0000michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.203) (Remote host closed the connection)
2026-05-17 19:27:13 +0000 <geekosaur> I gather that is sufficiently non-performant that even in C/C++ major toolkits relay window server operations to the main thread and pass the result back
2026-05-17 19:27:20 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net)
2026-05-17 19:28:24 +0000Eoco(~ian@128.101.131.218) Eoco
2026-05-17 19:28:41 +0000 <geekosaur> Xlib even has a call you can make after opening the display to wrap everything in a mutex. word on the street is the result performs so badly that it should be avoided
2026-05-17 19:30:20 +0000 <geekosaur> one thing to consider is the asynch nature of window systems, plus the need for several go-rounds or multiple response packets for requests
2026-05-17 19:30:54 +0000random-jellyfish(~random-je@user/random-jellyfish) random-jellyfish
2026-05-17 19:31:03 +0000 <geekosaur> which makes Xlib's version slow and xcb's/wayland's pretty much untenable unless you mutex at a high enough level that you get Xlib's lack of performance
2026-05-17 19:32:06 +0000 <tomsmeding> Leary: ki has arrived
2026-05-17 19:32:16 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2026-05-17 19:33:28 +0000 <geekosaur> also the "async" part means that you can get late responses to earlier requests during later ones, unless you XSync or equivalent between requests, which is where most of that slowdown comes from
2026-05-17 19:34:42 +0000Eoco(~ian@128.101.131.218) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2026-05-17 19:34:55 +0000 <EvanR> sounds like these issues still make it possible pass off a socket to another thread for exclusive access for a while then pass back
2026-05-17 19:35:08 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net)
2026-05-17 19:35:12 +0000 <srk> hm. makes sense, you need to be extra careful with ffi
2026-05-17 19:35:44 +0000 <EvanR> thing is I though FFI worked worse without -threaded
2026-05-17 19:36:01 +0000 <tomsmeding> there've been (still are?) graphics drivers that not only don't support concurrent access, but strictly require access from the main thread only
2026-05-17 19:36:04 +0000 <geekosaur> it's possible, but it's still far more performant to designate a UI thread and forward all UI queries/updates to it
2026-05-17 19:36:17 +0000spew(~spew@user/spew) (Quit: nyaa~)
2026-05-17 19:36:24 +0000 <geekosaur> the toolkit folks have been dealing with this for decades, they know what performs best
2026-05-17 19:36:26 +0000Eoco(~ian@128.101.131.218) Eoco
2026-05-17 19:37:25 +0000 <geekosaur> FFI is less tolerant of things inappropriately marked "unsafe" without -threaded, iirc
2026-05-17 19:38:05 +0000 <geekosaur> but (and this is one of the things tomsneding is talking about) some opengl toolkits blow up kind of spectacularly with -threaded
2026-05-17 19:38:30 +0000 <tomsmeding> (through thread-local state)
2026-05-17 19:38:41 +0000 <geekosaur> they even added an option to ghci to allow working with such toolkits, since it's threaded by default
2026-05-17 19:39:36 +0000 <geekosaur> *tomsmeding (I kan type)
2026-05-17 19:39:47 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2026-05-17 19:40:33 +0000Square(~Square@user/square) Square
2026-05-17 19:40:54 +0000Eoco(~ian@128.101.131.218) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2026-05-17 19:42:44 +0000 <tomsmeding> what is a good verb for removing bits from an object to make it fit a hole
2026-05-17 19:43:06 +0000 <geekosaur> "shaving" is what I'd usually say
2026-05-17 19:43:08 +0000 <tomsmeding> or more concretely, selectively removing packages from a list until they configure & build together
2026-05-17 19:43:13 +0000 <tomsmeding> (playground)
2026-05-17 19:43:14 +0000tri(~tri@ool-4a5ac1f4.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2026-05-17 19:43:19 +0000 <geekosaur> but that would be pruning
2026-05-17 19:43:27 +0000 <tomsmeding> oh pruning is better yes
2026-05-17 19:43:37 +0000 <tomsmeding> I didn't get further than "whittle" which is not great
2026-05-17 19:43:59 +0000petrichor(~jez@user/petrichor) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2026-05-17 19:44:11 +0000 <monochrom> Hey that one I know! Starting with some GHC version (therefore people were surprised during the transition), ghci is built with -threaded, plus every expression you enter at the REPL enjoys its own forkIO. That broke some people entering GUI expressions at the REPL. So later ghci added a "don't forkIO" option.
2026-05-17 19:44:27 +0000 <geekosaur> it is sometimes used idiomatically for that
2026-05-17 19:44:38 +0000merijn(~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2026-05-17 19:44:44 +0000 <geekosaur> -no-ghci-sandbox iirc
2026-05-17 19:45:11 +0000 <monochrom> Yeah that.