| 2026-03-09 00:00:44 +0100 | <davean> | They just add a constrait to solve for to the type checker |
| 2026-03-09 00:03:55 +0100 | picnoir | (~picnoir@about/aquilenet/vodoo/NinjaTrappeur) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-03-09 00:06:18 +0100 | Square | (~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2026-03-09 00:06:23 +0100 | Square2 | (~Square4@user/square) Square |
| 2026-03-09 00:17:20 +0100 | picnoir | (~picnoir@about/aquilenet/vodoo/NinjaTrappeur) NinjaTrappeur |
| 2026-03-09 00:36:51 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-03-09 00:41:42 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2026-03-09 00:52:17 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-03-09 00:56:42 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2026-03-09 00:57:06 +0100 | stackdroid18 | (~stackdroi@user/stackdroid) () |
| 2026-03-09 01:01:25 +0100 | arandombit | (~arandombi@user/arandombit) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2026-03-09 01:07:58 +0100 | arandombit | (~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit |
| 2026-03-09 01:08:03 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@62.45.136.136) merijn |
| 2026-03-09 01:10:37 +0100 | tremon | (~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Quit: getting boxed in) |
| 2026-03-09 01:12:26 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@62.45.136.136) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 2026-03-09 01:14:12 +0100 | tzh | (~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
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| 2026-03-09 01:23:29 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-03-09 01:29:33 +0100 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@88.114.89.88) (Quit: Leaving.) |
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| 2026-03-09 01:30:16 +0100 | arandombit | (~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit |
| 2026-03-09 01:39:07 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@62.45.136.136) merijn |
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| 2026-03-09 01:42:33 +0100 | arandombit | (~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit |
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| 2026-03-09 01:57:04 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@62.45.136.136) merijn |
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| 2026-03-09 02:26:29 +0100 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
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| 2026-03-09 02:39:06 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) |
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| 2026-03-09 03:07:47 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-03-09 03:23:43 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2026-03-09 03:36:10 +0100 | bggd_ | (~bgg@2a01:e0a:fd5:f510:d84e:bd19:3fca:eb64) |
| 2026-03-09 03:43:56 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-03-09 03:48:46 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2026-03-09 03:51:39 +0100 | khumba | (~khumba@user/khumba) khumba |
| 2026-03-09 03:56:08 +0100 | <ski> | EvanR : for `class C a b c | a -> b', this expresses `forall a. unique b. exists c. C a b c', which is equivalent to `forall a b0 b1 c0 c1. (C a b0 c0,C a b1 c1) => b0 = b1'. this means that if you infer constraints `C a b0 c0' and `C a b1 c1' then you can add the constraint `b0 = b1'. it also means that if you find two instances where the `a' part is the same (upto renaming of tyvars) but the `b' part |
| 2026-03-09 03:56:14 +0100 | <ski> | differs, then you have a violation of the FD |
| 2026-03-09 03:57:38 +0100 | <ski> | "either this or associated types are needed to make multiparameter type classes typecheck without explicit annotations" -- for many, but not for all, usages. if you only invoke a single `C a b c' constraint (or there's only a single instance), then the presence or absence of the FD makes no difference |
| 2026-03-09 03:59:03 +0100 | <ski> | (by `unique a. ..a..' i here mean "exists at most one", so equivalent to `forall a0 a1. (..a0..,..a1..) => a0 = a1') |
| 2026-03-09 03:59:17 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-03-09 04:03:26 +0100 | arandombit | (~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit |
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| 2026-03-09 04:09:23 +0100 | arandombit | (~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit |
| 2026-03-09 04:14:26 +0100 | arandombit | (~arandombi@user/arandombit) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2026-03-09 04:14:42 +0100 | myxos | (~myxos@174-18-44-59.tcso.qwest.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-03-09 04:15:02 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-03-09 04:17:38 +0100 | attlin | (~user@user/attlin) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-03-09 04:19:45 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-03-09 04:24:46 +0100 | poscat | (~poscat@user/poscat) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-03-09 04:26:08 +0100 | myxos | (~myxos@174-18-44-59.tcso.qwest.net) myxokephale |
| 2026-03-09 04:27:40 +0100 | poscat | (~poscat@user/poscat) poscat |
| 2026-03-09 04:37:14 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2026-03-09 04:38:47 +0100 | <EvanR> | that seems to all add up to the same thing as what i said. None of which to me connects with the "point" which is to select an instance |
| 2026-03-09 04:39:55 +0100 | <EvanR> | the instances form a relation among types, restricted further by the functional dependency noted = all these constraints exist |
| 2026-03-09 04:42:18 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
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| 2026-03-09 09:38:09 +0100 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine) |
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| 2026-03-09 09:52:21 +0100 | arandombit | (~arandombi@2a02:2455:8656:7100:49f2:4a42:13a7:5052) |
| 2026-03-09 09:52:21 +0100 | arandombit | (~arandombi@2a02:2455:8656:7100:49f2:4a42:13a7:5052) (Changing host) |
| 2026-03-09 09:52:21 +0100 | arandombit | (~arandombi@user/arandombit) arandombit |
| 2026-03-09 09:52:40 +0100 | chexum | (~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) chexum |
| 2026-03-09 09:55:40 +0100 | castan | (~castan@2a02:2f0f:8210:d800:1625:20a6:66c:b041) |
| 2026-03-09 09:57:31 +0100 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) toonn |
| 2026-03-09 10:01:50 +0100 | <castan> | Hi. Can someone help me understand what sorcery makes `mappend mempty Sum 3` get parsed as `mappend mempty (Sum 3)` |
| 2026-03-09 10:02:24 +0100 | czan | (~czan@user/mange) czan |
| 2026-03-09 10:03:08 +0100 | loungerry_ | (~loungerry@150.241.86.78) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2026-03-09 10:04:35 +0100 | <probie> | None |
| 2026-03-09 10:04:42 +0100 | <Leary> | castan: It doesn't get /parsed/ as that; that's what it equals. `mappend mempty x = x` ==> `mappend mempty Sum = Sum` ==> `mappend mempty Sum 3 = Sum 3`. |
| 2026-03-09 10:05:04 +0100 | <Leary> | One key detail here being `Monoid b => Monoid (a -> b)`. |
| 2026-03-09 10:05:21 +0100 | <probie> | :t mappend mempty Sum |
| 2026-03-09 10:05:22 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Num a => a -> Sum a |
| 2026-03-09 10:05:38 +0100 | <probie> | :t (mappend mempty) |
| 2026-03-09 10:05:39 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Monoid a => a -> a |
| 2026-03-09 10:05:42 +0100 | <castan> | Oh hahahha |
| 2026-03-09 10:06:35 +0100 | <castan> | I see now, thank you |
| 2026-03-09 10:07:58 +0100 | <mesaoptimizer> | :t mappend |
| 2026-03-09 10:07:59 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Monoid a => a -> a -> a |
| 2026-03-09 10:08:06 +0100 | <mesaoptimizer> | :t mappend mempty |
| 2026-03-09 10:08:07 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Monoid a => a -> a |
| 2026-03-09 10:08:14 +0100 | <mesaoptimizer> | :t mappend mempty Sum |
| 2026-03-09 10:08:15 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Num a => a -> Sum a |
| 2026-03-09 10:08:21 +0100 | <mesaoptimizer> | :t mappend mempty Sum 3 |
| 2026-03-09 10:08:22 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Num t => Sum t |
| 2026-03-09 10:10:19 +0100 | <__monty__> | Were you expecting a different result? Because `mappend mempty (Sum 3) = Sum 3` too. |
| 2026-03-09 10:10:20 +0100 | <merijn> | best monoit instance ever |
| 2026-03-09 10:10:40 +0100 | <merijn> | __monty__: No, his question is why is it correct at all :p |
| 2026-03-09 10:10:58 +0100 | <merijn> | __monty__: Which, if you don't realise the monoid on functions is confusing |
| 2026-03-09 10:12:02 +0100 | <merijn> | castan: And absolutely brilliant use for this monoid is the fact that Ordering is a monoid, so you can use it to combine comparison functions to do multi way ordering |
| 2026-03-09 10:13:07 +0100 | <merijn> | :t comparing |
| 2026-03-09 10:13:08 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Ord a => (b -> a) -> b -> b -> Ordering |
| 2026-03-09 10:13:13 +0100 | <merijn> | :t sortBy |
| 2026-03-09 10:13:14 +0100 | <lambdabot> | (a -> a -> Ordering) -> [a] -> [a] |
| 2026-03-09 10:14:00 +0100 | <merijn> | > sortBy (comparing snd <> comparing fst) [(3,9), (2,9), (1, 9), (3, 1), (2, 1), (1,1)] |
| 2026-03-09 10:14:02 +0100 | <lambdabot> | [(1,1),(2,1),(3,1),(1,9),(2,9),(3,9)] |
| 2026-03-09 10:14:12 +0100 | <merijn> | Magic |
| 2026-03-09 10:15:17 +0100 | <probie> | > sortBy (comparing snd <> comparing (flip mod 2 . fst) <> comparing fst) [(3,9), (2,9), (1, 9), (3, 1), (2, 1), (1,1)] |
| 2026-03-09 10:15:18 +0100 | <lambdabot> | [(2,1),(1,1),(3,1),(2,9),(1,9),(3,9)] |
| 2026-03-09 10:15:55 +0100 | <castan> | that's wild, I need to play with it for a bit to understand how |
| 2026-03-09 10:16:46 +0100 | <merijn> | Holy moly is Hackage being DOSed or something? |
| 2026-03-09 10:16:49 +0100 | <merijn> | It's slow as sin |
| 2026-03-09 10:17:17 +0100 | <merijn> | > sortBy (comparing snd <> comparing (Down . fst)) [(3,9), (2,9), (1, 9), (3, 1), (2, 1), (1,1)] |
| 2026-03-09 10:17:19 +0100 | <lambdabot> | [(3,1),(2,1),(1,1),(3,9),(2,9),(1,9)] |
| 2026-03-09 10:17:24 +0100 | <merijn> | Even funkier with newtypes like Down :p |
| 2026-03-09 10:17:37 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@staff235.kora-dyn.aalto.fi) fp |
| 2026-03-09 10:18:04 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@staff235.kora-dyn.aalto.fi) (Client Quit) |
| 2026-03-09 10:18:08 +0100 | <merijn> | castan: Basically the monoid on functions is "if the final result is a monoid, then simply pass each argument to both functions and mappend the result" |
| 2026-03-09 10:18:25 +0100 | fp | (~Thunderbi@2001:708:20:1406::1370) fp |
| 2026-03-09 10:18:48 +0100 | <merijn> | castan: "instance Monoid b => Monoid (a -> b) where mappend f g = \x -> mappend (f x) (g x)" |
| 2026-03-09 10:19:36 +0100 | <merijn> | castan: But that instance applies recursively (i.e. since "a -> b" is a Monoid when 'b' is, then "c -> a -> b" (which is just "c -> (a -> b)" is also a monoid) |
| 2026-03-09 10:20:06 +0100 | <merijn> | :t comparing fst |
| 2026-03-09 10:20:07 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Ord a => (a, b) -> (a, b) -> Ordering |
| 2026-03-09 10:20:11 +0100 | <merijn> | :t comparing snd |
| 2026-03-09 10:20:12 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Ord a1 => (a2, a1) -> (a2, a1) -> Ordering |
| 2026-03-09 10:21:55 +0100 | <merijn> | Ordering is just "data Ordering = LT | EQ | GT" with "mappend LT _ = LT; mappend GT _ = GT; mappend EQ x = x" (i.e. it gives you the left-most non-equal value) |
| 2026-03-09 10:22:57 +0100 | <merijn> | So "comparing snd <> comparing fst" passes the same 2 tuples to both functions and mappend results, which simply returns the result of "comparing snd" **unless** that returns EQ, then it falls back to the result of "comparing fst" |
| 2026-03-09 10:23:30 +0100 | <castan> | oh and then with <> you get a lexicographic order on the pairs |
| 2026-03-09 10:23:56 +0100 | <merijn> | castan: lexicographic order on the whatever functions you pass to it |
| 2026-03-09 10:24:04 +0100 | <merijn> | but yes |
| 2026-03-09 10:24:35 +0100 | <castan> | this is really cool, thank you for the info |
| 2026-03-09 10:24:53 +0100 | <merijn> | It's stupid powerful for trivially writing really complicated sorts |
| 2026-03-09 10:25:56 +0100 | <merijn> | It also works well for stuff like aggregating data, since you just need a monoid on the final result and then you can compose any number of functions computing stuff that take the same arguments into bigger aggregations |
| 2026-03-09 10:26:42 +0100 | <merijn> | castan: It's even neater since you can my personal favourite "mwhen :: Monoid b => Boolean -> b" to selectively disable parts of aggregation/sorting |
| 2026-03-09 10:27:55 +0100 | castan | (~castan@2a02:2f0f:8210:d800:1625:20a6:66c:b041) (Quit: castan) |
| 2026-03-09 10:29:23 +0100 | <merijn> | For a non-trivial real world example of the power of just stacking a bunch of monoids, see: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/blob/master/Cabal/src/Distribution/Simple/Program/GHC.hs#L67-L144 |
| 2026-03-09 10:30:06 +0100 | <merijn> | Good to see that that code hasn't been maintained/updated for, like, 10 GHC releases now >.> |
| 2026-03-09 10:34:53 +0100 | prdak | (~Thunderbi@user/prdak) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2026-03-09 10:37:49 +0100 | <[exa]> | is there a "strict" generic monoidal `fold` ? |
| 2026-03-09 10:38:11 +0100 | <[exa]> | the docs recommend going for `foldMap' id` but that's not cute |
| 2026-03-09 10:38:17 +0100 | <[exa]> | y no fold' |
| 2026-03-09 10:38:55 +0100 | <[exa]> | merijn: btw the slow hackage situation has been dragging for over a week now I'd say. can we somehow throw servers at it? |
| 2026-03-09 10:39:42 +0100 | kuribas | (~user@2a02-1810-2825-6000-46e-614f-97bf-a1c6.ip6.access.telenet.be) kuribas |
| 2026-03-09 10:40:28 +0100 | <kuribas> | Is a lot of haskell code now also "vibecoded"? |
| 2026-03-09 10:40:33 +0100 | <kuribas> | I noticed this PR: https://github.com/winterland1989/mysql-haskell/pull/72 |
| 2026-03-09 10:40:56 +0100 | <kuribas> | "Generated with Claude Code" |
| 2026-03-09 10:42:48 +0100 | prdak | (~Thunderbi@user/prdak) prdak |
| 2026-03-09 10:43:12 +0100 | akegalj | (~akegalj@246-221.dsl.iskon.hr) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2026-03-09 10:43:39 +0100 | <[exa]> | kuribas: apparently even some haskell folks love to just pour code on stuff |
| 2026-03-09 10:44:14 +0100 | <kuribas> | "catch (void (waitCommandReply tlsIs')) ((\ _ -> return ()) :: SomeException -> IO ())" |
| 2026-03-09 10:45:01 +0100 | <[exa]> | it's for mysql so aesthetics arguments don't apply |
| 2026-03-09 10:45:22 +0100 | <kuribas> | right :) |
| 2026-03-09 10:45:38 +0100 | <kuribas> | Also "if isOK q then return () else decodeFromPacket q >>= throwIO . ERRException" |
| 2026-03-09 10:45:47 +0100 | <kuribas> | Instead "unless (isOk q) $ ..." |
| 2026-03-09 10:46:02 +0100 | <[exa]> | c'mon it's python encoded in haskell, newbie-friendly! |
| 2026-03-09 10:46:07 +0100 | <mesaoptimizer> | lol |
| 2026-03-09 10:46:34 +0100 | alinab | (sid468903@id-468903.helmsley.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2026-03-09 10:47:04 +0100 | <[exa]> | I found that particular issue to be an interesting thing to write into homework assignments |
| 2026-03-09 10:48:15 +0100 | <[exa]> | if you explicitly say "do not use Bool", humans will switch to some correct-by-construction workflow (like having Maybe query or so); poor claude will encode booleans in strings and integers |
| 2026-03-09 10:51:04 +0100 | <mesaoptimizer> | I wonder if there are languages that are extremely resistant to LLM codegen, such that any code written is very likely human-written |
| 2026-03-09 10:51:52 +0100 | <kuribas> | idris? |
| 2026-03-09 10:53:02 +0100 | <mesaoptimizer> | possibly, yeah. I do notice that it is incredibly difficult for LLMs to write dependent type theoretic code, but my experiments were only with Agda (when attempting to learn it) |
| 2026-03-09 10:53:38 +0100 | <mesaoptimizer> | one could also make syntax-semantics combinations that are extremely alien to the LLM |
| 2026-03-09 10:54:19 +0100 | <mesaoptimizer> | perhaps if you model the syntax-semantics space, you can essentially sample from regions that are adverserially optimized to be incoherent and counter-intuitive to the model |
| 2026-03-09 10:54:59 +0100 | <mesaoptimizer> | (question is whether they will stay intuitive enough for programmers) |
| 2026-03-09 11:25:45 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2026-03-09 11:28:49 +0100 | vgtw | (~vgtw@user/vgtw) vgtw |
| 2026-03-09 11:29:07 +0100 | <merijn> | [exa]: tbh, chatgpt seems to do much better with strongly typed code than other stuff imo |
| 2026-03-09 11:32:10 +0100 | <newmind> | merijn: i feel like it is quite a bit worse at generation, it one-shots less reliably, and often falls back to imperative patterns which don't quite fit wit haskell... but at least most of the time it then doesn't compile and it can fix that, rather than relying just on unit tests or the user catching it |
| 2026-03-09 11:33:45 +0100 | <merijn> | newmind: I've mostly been using it with Scala, so not entirely sure how it does for HAskell |
| 2026-03-09 11:34:03 +0100 | <merijn> | mesaoptimizer: I mean, that's just reinventing Epigram but unprincipled :p\ |
| 2026-03-09 11:35:18 +0100 | <newmind> | at least the claude models are.. usable? they still get a lot of it wrong, and often get stuck in trivial sections, and the code they produce is... quite bad... but it compiles, and once it's working, refactoring it in a strongly typed language is so much more reliable than without |
| 2026-03-09 11:41:58 +0100 | dutchie | (~dutchie@user/dutchie) (Remote host closed the connection) |