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2025-06-03 01:59:09 +0200 <EvanR> haskell type system could be construed as constructive: you start with nothing and can do nothing until you define new types, then you can create values according to the rules made so far, and that's it, until you define more types. In elixir's upcoming type system and typescript it's destructive. You start with a universe of possible values and the types divide the universe up into smaller and smaller subsets
2025-06-03 01:59:48 +0200 <EvanR> in some blog somewhere they argue that the first way gives you more stuff and goes farther, though the second way would be nice to have
2025-06-03 02:00:33 +0200 <EvanR> however now I'm wondering if they are even comparable because the universe is infinite, and dividing infinite space into infinite subspaces is not necessarily less
2025-06-03 02:00:42 +0200 <monochrom> Does it say what is nice about the second way?
2025-06-03 02:01:24 +0200 <EvanR> having the ability to control subtypes and restrict the values in a meticulous way, like liquid haskell
2025-06-03 02:01:31 +0200 <EvanR> they say it would be nice
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2025-06-03 02:04:24 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-03 02:05:22 +0200 <EvanR> @where typescript
2025-06-03 02:05:23 +0200 <lambdabot> I know nothing about typescript.
2025-06-03 02:06:35 +0200 <monochrom> I have trouble believing that elixir and typescript have refinement types (what liquid haskell does). (In my world they are called predicate subtypes.)
2025-06-03 02:07:36 +0200 <monochrom> But I wouldn't be surprised if their "subtype" just means the OOP kind, i.e., row subtypes. (A subtype has more fields than the supertype.)
2025-06-03 02:08:09 +0200 <monochrom> In that case, it's just "OOP would be nice".
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2025-06-03 02:09:26 +0200 <EvanR> they can't divide integers up or floats
2025-06-03 02:09:57 +0200 <EvanR> but they can divide e.g. list of a into non-empty list of a and general list of a
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2025-06-03 02:10:50 +0200 <EvanR> and list of a into list of integer, list of float
2025-06-03 02:11:04 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 02:11:24 +0200 <EvanR> and through "intersection types" they can divide functions up in weird ways
2025-06-03 02:12:05 +0200 <EvanR> so it goes beyond row types
2025-06-03 02:13:42 +0200 <EvanR> e.g. a function which accepts int or bool and returns string "has type" intersection of int->string and bool->string
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2025-06-03 02:17:39 +0200jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) jmcantrell
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2025-06-03 02:22:19 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Scala does something like that with functions in regards to subtypes. Uh
2025-06-03 02:22:44 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> There was a term for it, when youre doing generics there, you specify [A+] i think?
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2025-06-03 02:23:17 +0200 <monochrom> covariant, contravariant, invariant
2025-06-03 02:23:23 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Exactly
2025-06-03 02:23:26 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Thanks
2025-06-03 02:23:41 +0200 <EvanR> looks like I might even be wrong about dividing up the basic types. You could do something like, a type which means exactly some string
2025-06-03 02:23:55 +0200swistak(~swistak@185.21.216.141) (Quit: bye bye)
2025-06-03 02:23:58 +0200 <EvanR> then union several of these together to get only string1, string2, or string3
2025-06-03 02:24:14 +0200swistak(~swistak@185.21.216.141)
2025-06-03 02:24:14 +0200 <EvanR> which is a subtype of the type of "any string"
2025-06-03 02:24:18 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> We learned that during a course in uni, just forgot the name. But yeah say "Int | Float" is a superclass of "Int" and also of "Float" than in scala it would work with the functions
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2025-06-03 02:24:44 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> *than -> then
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2025-06-03 02:25:41 +0200 <EvanR> Int and Float being subtypes of Int|Float definitely makes more sense than one of them being a subtype of the other
2025-06-03 02:25:45 +0200 <monochrom> In most languages, unlike Haskell, string is a basic type, too. :)
2025-06-03 02:26:37 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Like, int is a subtype of float, but encoding that in a programming language is yikes
2025-06-03 02:26:47 +0200 <EvanR> no it is notttttttt
2025-06-03 02:26:56 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Assuming infinite size
2025-06-03 02:27:03 +0200 <EvanR> infinite size what, int? xD
2025-06-03 02:27:12 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Both :P
2025-06-03 02:27:18 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> So i guess i mean integral and real
2025-06-03 02:27:27 +0200 <EvanR> infinite float is pretty rare compared to int
2025-06-03 02:27:33 +0200 <monochrom> I can agree that 32-bit int is a subtype of 64-bit double-precision float. >:)
2025-06-03 02:27:44 +0200 <EvanR> that checks
2025-06-03 02:28:08 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Well yes, which is why i said if you look at the math side, infinitely sized ints are subtypes of floats. But encoding that in a programming language is yikes :P
2025-06-03 02:28:37 +0200 <EvanR> Z "is a subset of" reals... this is also yikes xD
2025-06-03 02:28:37 +0200 <monochrom> If you say "float" then it is finite size.
2025-06-03 02:29:26 +0200ljdarj1(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj
2025-06-03 02:29:26 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Its 2am, ill excuse my shitty terminology on account of that
2025-06-03 02:29:32 +0200 <EvanR> there's an order preserving or monoid preserving or ring preserving function from Z to R
2025-06-03 02:29:54 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> EvanR how so? On the also yikes part
2025-06-03 02:30:01 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> In my head it checks out
2025-06-03 02:30:07 +0200 <EvanR> but that's getting away with this "one universe" theory of dynamic languages
2025-06-03 02:30:13 +0200 <EvanR> getting away from
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2025-06-03 02:31:26 +0200 <monochrom> I thought the whole point of a one-universe theory is that Z can be safely a subset of R!
2025-06-03 02:31:38 +0200 <EvanR> yeah
2025-06-03 02:31:49 +0200 <monochrom> (And both being subsets of the one universe.)
2025-06-03 02:31:59 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Im lost, im gonna go sleep, im too tired for this discussion i think
2025-06-03 02:32:02 +0200 <EvanR> in the chaotic period of 1920s math the one universe theory didn't yet win the debate
2025-06-03 02:32:05 +0200 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Gn
2025-06-03 02:32:26 +0200 <EvanR> everything was separate unless you could prove an inclusion or isomorphism
2025-06-03 02:32:30 +0200 <monochrom> (And OK we have to s/set/something else/ lest a Russell paradox arises.)
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2025-06-03 02:37:08 +0200 <EvanR> additive synthesis, first you create N then using it create Z then ... eventually get R. subtractive synthesis, just say Z or R is this or that subset of surreals xD
2025-06-03 02:37:43 +0200 <EvanR> using schema of specification
2025-06-03 02:38:06 +0200 <monochrom> If you dig deeper, eventually it is just "is math invented or discovered" again.
2025-06-03 02:40:05 +0200 <EvanR> also is it dependent on or independent of logic
2025-06-03 02:40:25 +0200 <EvanR> or vice versa
2025-06-03 02:40:46 +0200 <monochrom> Whenever you think, you use some kind of logic.
2025-06-03 02:40:57 +0200 <monochrom> If you don't think, then WTF are you doing?!
2025-06-03 02:41:46 +0200 <EvanR> then you're an LLM
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2025-06-03 03:03:10 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 03:03:36 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 03:06:07 +0200paotsaq(~paotsaq@127.209.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) paotsaq
2025-06-03 03:06:24 +0200qaotsap(~paotsaq@2001:818:ea0e:8300:6733:50c0:6d2:30c2) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-03 03:06:25 +0200Guest74(~Guest74@2605:a601:a88f:0:981e:3b52:4ed8:7c43) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-06-03 03:09:22 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 03:09:45 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 03:09:46 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-03 03:14:31 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-06-03 03:17:06 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 03:17:28 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 03:21:14 +0200yin(~z@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-06-03 03:21:32 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2025-06-03 03:24:24 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 03:24:48 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 03:25:34 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-03 03:26:05 +0200yin(~z@user/zero) zero
2025-06-03 03:27:09 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 03:27:37 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 03:28:30 +0200humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect
2025-06-03 03:30:29 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-06-03 03:33:22 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 03:33:44 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 03:36:13 +0200humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-03 03:41:08 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 03:41:22 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-03 03:41:31 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 03:46:25 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-06-03 03:49:13 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 03:49:37 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 03:55:45 +0200Frostillicus(~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-06-03 03:57:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-03 03:57:28 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 03:57:53 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 04:02:04 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-06-03 04:03:29 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-03 04:04:25 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 04:04:51 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 04:09:09 +0200j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-06-03 04:10:02 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-03 04:10:11 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-03 04:10:25 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 04:15:23 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-06-03 04:17:30 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 04:17:52 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 04:21:11 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-06-03 04:23:13 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 04:23:37 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 04:25:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-03 04:28:23 +0200humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect
2025-06-03 04:29:13 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 04:29:40 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 04:30:49 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-03 04:33:30 +0200humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-03 04:33:43 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 04:34:10 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 04:41:18 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 04:41:29 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-03 04:41:41 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 04:46:25 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-06-03 04:47:04 +0200down200(~down200@shell.lug.mtu.edu) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-03 04:47:07 +0200down200-(~down200@shell.lug.mtu.edu) down200
2025-06-03 04:47:43 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 04:48:07 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 04:51:51 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 04:52:15 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 04:56:49 +0200td_(~td@i53870908.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-03 04:57:16 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-03 04:58:17 +0200td_(~td@i53870931.versanet.de) td_
2025-06-03 04:58:22 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-03 04:58:46 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 05:01:59 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-06-03 05:04:30 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 05:04:54 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 05:11:22 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
2025-06-03 05:11:28 +0200tavare(~tavare@user/tavare) tavare
2025-06-03 05:12:01 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 05:12:20 +0200tavare(~tavare@user/tavare) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 05:12:24 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 05:13:04 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-03 05:19:03 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 05:19:28 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 05:20:13 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-06-03 05:25:31 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 05:25:55 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 05:31:00 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 05:31:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-03 05:31:21 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 05:33:34 +0200trickard(~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-06-03 05:33:48 +0200trickard(~trickard@cpe-51-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-06-03 05:35:47 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-06-03 05:38:03 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 05:38:26 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 05:43:52 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 05:44:13 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 05:46:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-03 05:51:39 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-06-03 05:52:07 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 05:52:32 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 05:59:04 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 05:59:28 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 06:02:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-06-03 06:06:18 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 06:06:44 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 06:07:13 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-06-03 06:14:03 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 06:14:26 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2025-06-03 06:18:55 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-06-03 06:19:17 +0200sabathan2(~sabathan@amarseille-159-1-12-107.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr)