| 2025-05-08 00:00:02 +0200 | <hellwolf> | 05-08 00:59 <tomsmeding> your users whose program now takes ages, will care |
| 2025-05-08 00:00:02 +0200 | <hellwolf> | heh, yea, my domain happens to have small programs; safety is more important there, which I am trying to sell |
| 2025-05-08 00:00:13 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I'd rather say that every constructor in your GADT gets an additional field: the label |
| 2025-05-08 00:00:27 +0200 | <hellwolf> | that's an interesting idea |
| 2025-05-08 00:00:38 +0200 | <hellwolf> | could be a next step in next version. |
| 2025-05-08 00:01:07 +0200 | <hellwolf> | so, I try to use linear-types only for effectful stuff |
| 2025-05-08 00:01:10 +0200 | <hellwolf> | there you can't duplicate |
| 2025-05-08 00:01:18 +0200 | <hellwolf> | otherwise storage or external messages sent twice |
| 2025-05-08 00:01:20 +0200 | <hellwolf> | that's incorrect |
| 2025-05-08 00:01:23 +0200 | <hellwolf> | semantics |
| 2025-05-08 00:01:25 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | or alternatively, and more neatly, you write your AST as a base functor, and have two "fixpoint combinators" on top of that: the usual one (newtype Fix f = In (f (Fix f))) _after_ sharing recovery, and a labeled one (data Labeled f = Lab Int (f (Labeled f))) before sharing recovery |
| 2025-05-08 00:01:37 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 2025-05-08 00:01:40 +0200 | <hellwolf> | and linear types solvs the sharing completely |
| 2025-05-08 00:01:51 +0200 | <hellwolf> | and I developed a technical of using linear types very ergonomically |
| 2025-05-08 00:01:53 +0200 | <hellwolf> | I can talk another time |
| 2025-05-08 00:02:00 +0200 | <hellwolf> | it's too exciting for me, I need to sleep to :D |
| 2025-05-08 00:02:09 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | :p |
| 2025-05-08 00:02:20 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | sleep well |
| 2025-05-08 00:02:34 +0200 | <hellwolf> | | let z = a + b * c in dup'l z & uncurry (*) |
| 2025-05-08 00:02:40 +0200 | <hellwolf> | this is linear-type version of working with pure diagrams |
| 2025-05-08 00:02:46 +0200 | <hellwolf> | | let z = a + b * c in z * z |
| 2025-05-08 00:02:55 +0200 | <hellwolf> | this is the non-linear-type version with diagram duplication |
| 2025-05-08 00:03:19 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-05-08 00:03:27 +0200 | <hellwolf> | I can repl codegen and live demo :) |
| 2025-05-08 00:03:36 +0200 | <hellwolf> | that's what I will be working on until the conferenc.e |
| 2025-05-08 00:04:42 +0200 | <hellwolf> | I have Category/Monoidal/Cartesian/Cartesian Closed standard categorical "verbs" |
| 2025-05-08 00:05:39 +0200 | <hellwolf> | special constructors/"verbs" are: MapHask, Switch, Jmp (jump to named function or built-in), Call (external messages), SGet/SPut (storage) |
| 2025-05-08 00:06:12 +0200 | <hellwolf> | I am very judicious of adding special verb, unless I can't find a categorical verb. |
| 2025-05-08 00:06:41 +0200 | <hellwolf> | usually it's particular to the domain, or a special control structure |
| 2025-05-08 00:07:22 +0200 | <hellwolf> | I can't do infinite recursion stuff in this domain, I don't even have heap (I can emulate, but I dont' want to go there), so I need a special verb for tight-loop |
| 2025-05-08 00:07:26 +0200 | <hellwolf> | to implement Foldable. |
| 2025-05-08 00:07:47 +0200 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@d108-173-18-100.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-08 00:07:54 +0200 | <hellwolf> | so, the tight-loop is the special control flow |
| 2025-05-08 00:08:03 +0200 | <hellwolf> | another one is Switch control flow |
| 2025-05-08 00:08:34 +0200 | <hellwolf> | which I solved the sharing problem there, by having special functions that build the diagram "delicately" |
| 2025-05-08 00:08:44 +0200 | <hellwolf> | with the help of the special verb. |
| 2025-05-08 00:08:52 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-05-08 00:08:54 +0200 | <hellwolf> | but that's the entire language |
| 2025-05-08 00:09:08 +0200 | <hellwolf> | it's not a lambda based language. I still lambda from Haskell. |
| 2025-05-08 00:09:10 +0200 | <hellwolf> | *steal |
| 2025-05-08 00:09:32 +0200 | <hellwolf> | alright, that's all for today :) |
| 2025-05-08 00:10:33 +0200 | <hellwolf> | maybe the final one is the end-to-end example: https://github.com/yolc-dev/yul-dsl-monorepo/blob/master/examples/demo/src/ERC20.hs This is in linear-types, in fact, my special linear-versioned-monad, which is definitely something I haven't seen prior art with my limited search |
| 2025-05-08 00:12:36 +0200 | <hellwolf> | I know it's gonna be exciting for me to keep talking and not shut up. One last thing for labeling: |
| 2025-05-08 00:13:16 +0200 | <hellwolf> | to solves the ergonomics of not having to manually label |
| 2025-05-08 00:13:29 +0200 | <hellwolf> | I have used template haskell to generate unique id |
| 2025-05-08 00:13:39 +0200 | <hellwolf> | based on module name and src loc |
| 2025-05-08 00:13:44 +0200 | <hellwolf> | here: https://github.com/yolc-dev/yul-dsl-monorepo/blob/2b39ca47cb55324cab4eda36c0546ea1fb3d7aca/hs-pkgs… |
| 2025-05-08 00:14:25 +0200 | <hellwolf> | I don't use that for all diagrams, but your suggestion of making labeling part of the GADT type is a good one, I think I will use that eventually. |
| 2025-05-08 00:14:41 +0200 | <hellwolf> | but that might involve too much template haskell dotted everywhere |
| 2025-05-08 00:14:52 +0200 | <hellwolf> | I still care about ergonomics, so I will be still judicious about it. |
| 2025-05-08 00:19:08 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-05-08 00:20:13 +0200 | hellwolf | duck. good night. |
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| 2025-05-08 05:16:24 +0200 | <monochrom> | No one can steal lambda from Haskell without also stealing purity, laziness, preferring currying, ... |
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| 2025-05-08 07:27:32 +0200 | califax | (~califax@user/califx) califx |
| 2025-05-08 07:28:13 +0200 | Frostillicus_1 | (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2025-05-08 07:30:28 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-05-08 07:32:41 +0200 | haritz | (~hrtz@user/haritz) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in) |
| 2025-05-08 07:35:45 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2025-05-08 07:46:15 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2025-05-08 07:51:33 +0200 | Frostillicus_1 | (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-08 08:00:10 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
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| 2025-05-08 08:08:48 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
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| 2025-05-08 08:15:49 +0200 | internatetional | (~nate@2001:448a:20a3:c2e5:f5f8:a31:7307:70a6) internatetional |
| 2025-05-08 08:15:57 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-05-08 08:20:55 +0200 | internatetional | (~nate@2001:448a:20a3:c2e5:f5f8:a31:7307:70a6) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-05-08 08:21:34 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-05-08 08:31:20 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> morning thought to continue... |
| 2025-05-08 08:31:20 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | Using exponential objects (aka. a -> b or b^a) to express the desire explicitly that "a" as an output of an unknown diagram may be used by the exponential object any number of times is the alternative to regular "let" for an embedding language. |
| 2025-05-08 08:31:46 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-05-08 08:32:25 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> It intends to solve the "exponentially growing diagrams" issue, similar to what let var sharing solves. |
| 2025-05-08 08:32:42 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> The word "exponential" appears twice seems an interesting coincidence. |
| 2025-05-08 08:33:37 +0200 | Frostillicus_1 | (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2025-05-08 08:34:17 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> Furthermore, LinearTypes offers another alternative: force you to express sharing using combinators such as "dup" |
| 2025-05-08 08:34:47 +0200 | joeyadams | (~textual@syn-162-154-010-038.res.spectrum.com) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) |
| 2025-05-08 08:36:12 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-05-08 08:37:07 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> Furthermore furthermore, I have developed a special "lmonad" for LinearTypes which makes that chore of duplication invisible. In brief, m VarRef, and each time you use the var you get a duplication. |
| 2025-05-08 08:37:15 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2025-05-08 08:37:31 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> It's a trade-off again: now, you need to program in a monad |
| 2025-05-08 08:41:20 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Quit: peterbecich) |
| 2025-05-08 08:41:53 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich |
| 2025-05-08 08:42:31 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> further further furthermore, while using monad and LinrarTypes seems to defeat the benefits of using LinrarTypes to express "parallelizable branches", |
| 2025-05-08 08:44:02 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> by that I mean, thanks to LinearTypes, it's very clear that branches of linear paths can be evaluated in parallel with side effects, since any sharing is explicit with "dup". |
| 2025-05-08 08:45:31 +0200 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f49a8c9e3402b4ffa7d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk |
| 2025-05-08 08:46:55 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> but that benefit can be recouped by versioning the global state, where versioned monad within the same "version" can be evaluated in parallel, but the monad of the next version must wait all those to finish first. |
| 2025-05-08 08:47:33 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
| 2025-05-08 08:48:28 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> this construction may seems ad-hoc, but I think if i try to generalize further, maybe a 2026 endeavour of me..., this is essentially building up to a monadic way of encoding linear-time temporal logic in Haskell. |
| 2025-05-08 08:49:20 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> linear-versioned monad that I build for yolc is a rather special case of LTL |
| 2025-05-08 08:49:53 +0200 | lortabac | (~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) lortabac |
| 2025-05-08 08:50:58 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> there is domain-specific benefit to linearly versioning data, namely to financial application security through this programming language safety, but I will skip here. |
| 2025-05-08 08:51:05 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> alright. fin. |
| 2025-05-08 08:51:28 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2025-05-08 08:52:30 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2025-05-08 08:53:24 +0200 | ft | (~ft@p4fc2a6e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2025-05-08 08:54:45 +0200 | jmcantrell | (~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-05-08 08:56:57 +0200 | j1n37 | (~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37 |
| 2025-05-08 09:00:03 +0200 | caconym7 | (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye) |
| 2025-05-08 09:00:45 +0200 | caconym7 | (~caconym@user/caconym) caconym |
| 2025-05-08 09:06:41 +0200 | CiaoSen | (~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) CiaoSen |
| 2025-05-08 09:14:41 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f14f:b20f:416b:87c6) |
| 2025-05-08 09:19:10 +0200 | sord937 | (~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937 |
| 2025-05-08 09:20:36 +0200 | Guest44 | (~Guest44@91-154-214-151.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 2025-05-08 09:29:25 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 2025-05-08 09:29:28 +0200 | YoungFrog | (~youngfrog@2a02:a03f:c9db:fc00:93c8:3aef:156:8fed) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2025-05-08 09:33:14 +0200 | YoungFrog | (~youngfrog@39.129-180-91.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) youngfrog |
| 2025-05-08 09:34:42 +0200 | ljdarj | (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) ljdarj |
| 2025-05-08 09:36:00 +0200 | Frostillicus_1 | (~Frostilli@pool-71-174-119-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-05-08 09:43:45 +0200 | Sgeo | (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2025-05-08 09:44:43 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@77.242.116.146) merijn |