2025/04/22

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2025-04-22 01:46:23 +0200 <EvanR> There is a 27-state turing machine which halts if and only if goldbach's conjecture is true
2025-04-22 01:51:06 +0200foul_owl(~kerry@94.156.149.91) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-04-22 01:52:11 +0200 <EvanR> does this mean if you know the running time of the 27-state busy beaver that you know the answer to goldbach's conjecture
2025-04-22 01:53:42 +0200 <TMA> you can decide by running it for the 27-beaver steps
2025-04-22 01:54:00 +0200Guest49(~Guest49@astrolabe.plus.com) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-04-22 01:54:38 +0200 <TMA> so, you do not know it immediately, but you know it in theory, because only finite many steps are missing
2025-04-22 01:55:14 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-22 01:55:53 +0200 <geekosaur> what's the difference between "halts" and "halts in a finite but possibly unbounded amount of time"
2025-04-22 01:56:31 +0200 <EvanR> fininte but possibly unbounded?
2025-04-22 01:56:42 +0200 <geekosaur> I know I got the terminology wrong there
2025-04-22 01:56:42 +0200 <TMA> a k-state TM that halts halts in at most BB(k) steps
2025-04-22 01:57:06 +0200 <geekosaur> but if it runs for 10^60 years, do you really know the answer from its running time?
2025-04-22 01:57:25 +0200 <EvanR> yeah "you know it in theory" is funny
2025-04-22 01:57:37 +0200 <TMA> in theory there is no difference between theory and praxis
2025-04-22 01:57:55 +0200 <TMA> in praxis the difference tends to be immense
2025-04-22 01:58:43 +0200 <TMA> mathematics does not concern itself with praxis though :)
2025-04-22 01:58:53 +0200 <TMA> that's for engineers
2025-04-22 01:59:10 +0200 <EvanR> with this clarification of what's what, I think the answer to my question is "no"
2025-04-22 02:00:05 +0200 <EvanR> also
2025-04-22 02:00:15 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:00:27 +0200 <EvanR> "knowing" what this 27-beaver number is is funny
2025-04-22 02:00:47 +0200 <EvanR> would it be like something with scientific notation, or something that defies notation because it's so big
2025-04-22 02:01:33 +0200 <EvanR> in which case I'm not sure what knowing entails
2025-04-22 02:03:56 +0200foul_owl(~kerry@174-21-146-90.tukw.qwest.net) foul_owl
2025-04-22 02:04:34 +0200jespada(~jespada@r190-135-225-29.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:04:43 +0200 <EvanR> which leads me to question if you can "know" what the value 2834528348238485234593452341237645 is
2025-04-22 02:05:05 +0200 <EvanR> maybe inventing a new annoying form of ultrafinitism
2025-04-22 02:05:51 +0200 <TMA> S(6) > 10 ^^ 15 (^^ is tetration)
2025-04-22 02:11:55 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f08445cea1ba17aeda3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2025-04-22 02:12:14 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-04-22 02:26:08 +0200tt12310978324354(~tt1231@syn-075-185-104-199.res.spectrum.com) tt1231
2025-04-22 02:26:46 +0200 <monochrom> Huh, I disagree. In whose theory there is no difference? Because in my theory, there is already a difference, I try very hard to have/use honest theories.
2025-04-22 02:27:26 +0200 <monochrom> Because if it is your theory that says there is no difference, then the problem is with you, not with the idea of having theories.
2025-04-22 02:27:43 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-04-22 02:29:50 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2025-04-22 02:30:34 +0200 <monochrom> But yes the running time of that 27-state machine should tell you quite something about the answer to goldbach's conjecture. I don't know the machine itself so I don't know what it will tell you.
2025-04-22 02:31:35 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) ezzieyguywuf
2025-04-22 02:32:11 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:38:15 +0200notdabs(~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:887e:630e:324f:f9fb)
2025-04-22 02:44:51 +0200 <EvanR> "the" machine with 27-states is unrelated, just that it halts is the important part, and that nothing runs longer without running forever
2025-04-22 02:45:43 +0200 <EvanR> actually there was at least two machines with that number of states discussed
2025-04-22 02:45:59 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-22 02:46:09 +0200mceresa(~mceresa@user/mceresa) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:47:15 +0200otto_s(~user@p5de2ffcb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:48:10 +0200foul_owl(~kerry@174-21-146-90.tukw.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:48:43 +0200amadaluzia_(~amadaluzi@2a00:23c7:ed8b:6701:a7b2:bedf:19fc:3cf)
2025-04-22 02:49:27 +0200 <EvanR> the goldbach one may not halt ("probably not" according to heuristics)
2025-04-22 02:49:51 +0200 <monochrom> Ah OK so is this the plan? Race the/a Goldbach machine (it has 27 states) against BB(27). We gain information from which one finishes first.
2025-04-22 02:50:16 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-04-22 02:50:35 +0200 <monochrom> May be merely 1 bit for all that trouble. :)
2025-04-22 02:50:57 +0200 <EvanR> a pretty valuable bit though, how much prize money
2025-04-22 02:51:56 +0200 <monochrom> grad students are much cheaper and faster >:)
2025-04-22 02:52:29 +0200 <EvanR> ok like a million dollars
2025-04-22 02:52:37 +0200 <monochrom> (then trying to run BB(27))
2025-04-22 02:52:47 +0200 <monochrom> ( s/then/than/ )
2025-04-22 02:54:02 +0200 <EvanR> I see that your plan is different from anything discussed above
2025-04-22 02:54:22 +0200 <EvanR> I was like what if you know, you're like, race two machines
2025-04-22 02:54:32 +0200 <EvanR> much more dramatic
2025-04-22 02:54:38 +0200 <monochrom> heh
2025-04-22 02:55:15 +0200 <EvanR> one involved the number BB(27) and the other involves a machine with that runtime
2025-04-22 02:55:22 +0200 <monochrom> If you know the running time of BB(27), then you no longer have to race, you run only the Goldbach machine and you know how long to wait.
2025-04-22 02:56:13 +0200 <monochrom> Alternatively maybe "BB(27)" refers to that running time. OK you know how to correct my plan.
2025-04-22 02:56:30 +0200 <EvanR> 27 isn't that many states
2025-04-22 02:56:52 +0200 <EvanR> but I'm guessing we don't know the machine
2025-04-22 02:57:06 +0200 <EvanR> a machine
2025-04-22 02:57:15 +0200 <EvanR> a busy beaver
2025-04-22 02:57:40 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah I believe we only know up to 6.
2025-04-22 02:58:21 +0200tt12310978324354(~tt1231@syn-075-185-104-199.res.spectrum.com) (The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2025-04-22 03:02:34 +0200foul_owl(~kerry@94.156.149.97) foul_owl
2025-04-22 03:04:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-04-22 03:18:05 +0200tremon(~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Quit: getting boxed in)
2025-04-22 03:18:21 +0200amadaluz-(~amadaluzi@host86-129-150-130.range86-129.btcentralplus.com)
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2025-04-22 03:22:04 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> so, should i finish figuring out how to set up login on my server, or should I play with Miso to set up a Zhuangzi.io host, using the Burt Watson translation?
2025-04-22 03:22:41 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-04-22 03:23:28 +0200 <EvanR> who
2025-04-22 03:24:42 +0200harveypwca(~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:f6e0:27d6:8cc7:eca9:c46c)
2025-04-22 03:25:59 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> some dead philosopher, fond of jokes, paradox, and contradiction
2025-04-22 03:26:14 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> was recently surprised the only free online repo is on ctext.org, using an ancient translation
2025-04-22 03:26:35 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> Zhuangzi: Was I a butterfly dreaming that I am Zhuang Zhou, or am I Zhang Zhou dreaming that I am a butterfly?
2025-04-22 03:26:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-04-22 03:27:23 +0200abrar_(~abrar@static-96-245-187-163.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-04-22 03:27:48 +0200abrar(~abrar@static-96-245-187-163.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
2025-04-22 03:29:41 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> it's more about learning miso, in a low-risk project
2025-04-22 03:29:45 +0200 <EvanR> 庄子
2025-04-22 03:30:44 +0200 <EvanR> or 莊子
2025-04-22 03:31:47 +0200 <EvanR> how about a dose of "before covid" times https://ro-che.info/ccc/9