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2025-04-22 01:39:34 +0200 | weary-traveler | (~user@user/user363627) user363627 |
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2025-04-22 01:46:23 +0200 | <EvanR> | There is a 27-state turing machine which halts if and only if goldbach's conjecture is true |
2025-04-22 01:51:06 +0200 | foul_owl | (~kerry@94.156.149.91) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
2025-04-22 01:52:11 +0200 | <EvanR> | does this mean if you know the running time of the 27-state busy beaver that you know the answer to goldbach's conjecture |
2025-04-22 01:53:42 +0200 | <TMA> | you can decide by running it for the 27-beaver steps |
2025-04-22 01:54:00 +0200 | Guest49 | (~Guest49@astrolabe.plus.com) (Quit: Client closed) |
2025-04-22 01:54:38 +0200 | <TMA> | so, you do not know it immediately, but you know it in theory, because only finite many steps are missing |
2025-04-22 01:55:14 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-04-22 01:55:53 +0200 | <geekosaur> | what's the difference between "halts" and "halts in a finite but possibly unbounded amount of time" |
2025-04-22 01:56:31 +0200 | <EvanR> | fininte but possibly unbounded? |
2025-04-22 01:56:42 +0200 | <geekosaur> | I know I got the terminology wrong there |
2025-04-22 01:56:42 +0200 | <TMA> | a k-state TM that halts halts in at most BB(k) steps |
2025-04-22 01:57:06 +0200 | <geekosaur> | but if it runs for 10^60 years, do you really know the answer from its running time? |
2025-04-22 01:57:25 +0200 | <EvanR> | yeah "you know it in theory" is funny |
2025-04-22 01:57:37 +0200 | <TMA> | in theory there is no difference between theory and praxis |
2025-04-22 01:57:55 +0200 | <TMA> | in praxis the difference tends to be immense |
2025-04-22 01:58:43 +0200 | <TMA> | mathematics does not concern itself with praxis though :) |
2025-04-22 01:58:53 +0200 | <TMA> | that's for engineers |
2025-04-22 01:59:10 +0200 | <EvanR> | with this clarification of what's what, I think the answer to my question is "no" |
2025-04-22 02:00:05 +0200 | <EvanR> | also |
2025-04-22 02:00:15 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-04-22 02:00:27 +0200 | <EvanR> | "knowing" what this 27-beaver number is is funny |
2025-04-22 02:00:47 +0200 | <EvanR> | would it be like something with scientific notation, or something that defies notation because it's so big |
2025-04-22 02:01:33 +0200 | <EvanR> | in which case I'm not sure what knowing entails |
2025-04-22 02:03:56 +0200 | foul_owl | (~kerry@174-21-146-90.tukw.qwest.net) foul_owl |
2025-04-22 02:04:34 +0200 | jespada | (~jespada@r190-135-225-29.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
2025-04-22 02:04:43 +0200 | <EvanR> | which leads me to question if you can "know" what the value 2834528348238485234593452341237645 is |
2025-04-22 02:05:05 +0200 | <EvanR> | maybe inventing a new annoying form of ultrafinitism |
2025-04-22 02:05:51 +0200 | <TMA> | S(6) > 10 ^^ 15 (^^ is tetration) |
2025-04-22 02:11:55 +0200 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@p200300d6e71c4f08445cea1ba17aeda3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-04-22 02:11:56 +0200 | Googulator92 | (~Googulato@94-21-172-228.pool.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
2025-04-22 02:12:13 +0200 | Googulator92 | (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-2077-315b-d519-517f-afe7.pool6.digikabel.hu) |
2025-04-22 02:12:14 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-04-22 02:17:01 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
2025-04-22 02:26:08 +0200 | tt12310978324354 | (~tt1231@syn-075-185-104-199.res.spectrum.com) tt1231 |
2025-04-22 02:26:46 +0200 | <monochrom> | Huh, I disagree. In whose theory there is no difference? Because in my theory, there is already a difference, I try very hard to have/use honest theories. |
2025-04-22 02:27:26 +0200 | <monochrom> | Because if it is your theory that says there is no difference, then the problem is with you, not with the idea of having theories. |
2025-04-22 02:27:43 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-04-22 02:27:45 +0200 | Guest8 | (~Guest8@141.11.146.67) |
2025-04-22 02:28:10 +0200 | Guest8 | (~Guest8@141.11.146.67) (Client Quit) |
2025-04-22 02:29:50 +0200 | ezzieyguywuf | (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
2025-04-22 02:30:06 +0200 | jacopovalanzano | (~jacopoval@cpc151911-cove17-2-0-cust105.3-1.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: Client closed) |
2025-04-22 02:30:34 +0200 | <monochrom> | But yes the running time of that 27-state machine should tell you quite something about the answer to goldbach's conjecture. I don't know the machine itself so I don't know what it will tell you. |
2025-04-22 02:31:35 +0200 | ezzieyguywuf | (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) ezzieyguywuf |
2025-04-22 02:32:11 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
2025-04-22 02:38:15 +0200 | notdabs | (~Owner@2600:1700:69cf:9000:887e:630e:324f:f9fb) |
2025-04-22 02:44:51 +0200 | <EvanR> | "the" machine with 27-states is unrelated, just that it halts is the important part, and that nothing runs longer without running forever |
2025-04-22 02:45:43 +0200 | <EvanR> | actually there was at least two machines with that number of states discussed |
2025-04-22 02:45:59 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-04-22 02:46:09 +0200 | mceresa | (~mceresa@user/mceresa) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
2025-04-22 02:47:15 +0200 | otto_s | (~user@p5de2ffcb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
2025-04-22 02:48:10 +0200 | foul_owl | (~kerry@174-21-146-90.tukw.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
2025-04-22 02:48:43 +0200 | amadaluzia_ | (~amadaluzi@2a00:23c7:ed8b:6701:a7b2:bedf:19fc:3cf) |
2025-04-22 02:49:27 +0200 | <EvanR> | the goldbach one may not halt ("probably not" according to heuristics) |
2025-04-22 02:49:51 +0200 | <monochrom> | Ah OK so is this the plan? Race the/a Goldbach machine (it has 27 states) against BB(27). We gain information from which one finishes first. |
2025-04-22 02:50:16 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
2025-04-22 02:50:35 +0200 | <monochrom> | May be merely 1 bit for all that trouble. :) |
2025-04-22 02:50:57 +0200 | <EvanR> | a pretty valuable bit though, how much prize money |
2025-04-22 02:51:56 +0200 | <monochrom> | grad students are much cheaper and faster >:) |
2025-04-22 02:52:29 +0200 | <EvanR> | ok like a million dollars |
2025-04-22 02:52:37 +0200 | <monochrom> | (then trying to run BB(27)) |
2025-04-22 02:52:47 +0200 | <monochrom> | ( s/then/than/ ) |
2025-04-22 02:54:02 +0200 | <EvanR> | I see that your plan is different from anything discussed above |
2025-04-22 02:54:22 +0200 | <EvanR> | I was like what if you know, you're like, race two machines |
2025-04-22 02:54:32 +0200 | <EvanR> | much more dramatic |
2025-04-22 02:54:38 +0200 | <monochrom> | heh |
2025-04-22 02:55:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | one involved the number BB(27) and the other involves a machine with that runtime |
2025-04-22 02:55:22 +0200 | <monochrom> | If you know the running time of BB(27), then you no longer have to race, you run only the Goldbach machine and you know how long to wait. |
2025-04-22 02:56:13 +0200 | <monochrom> | Alternatively maybe "BB(27)" refers to that running time. OK you know how to correct my plan. |
2025-04-22 02:56:30 +0200 | <EvanR> | 27 isn't that many states |
2025-04-22 02:56:52 +0200 | <EvanR> | but I'm guessing we don't know the machine |
2025-04-22 02:57:06 +0200 | <EvanR> | a machine |
2025-04-22 02:57:15 +0200 | <EvanR> | a busy beaver |
2025-04-22 02:57:40 +0200 | <monochrom> | Yeah I believe we only know up to 6. |
2025-04-22 02:58:21 +0200 | tt12310978324354 | (~tt1231@syn-075-185-104-199.res.spectrum.com) (The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
2025-04-22 03:02:34 +0200 | foul_owl | (~kerry@94.156.149.97) foul_owl |
2025-04-22 03:04:07 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-04-22 03:04:39 +0200 | otto_s | (~user@p5b044854.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
2025-04-22 03:11:14 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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2025-04-22 03:18:05 +0200 | tremon | (~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Quit: getting boxed in) |
2025-04-22 03:18:21 +0200 | amadaluz- | (~amadaluzi@host86-129-150-130.range86-129.btcentralplus.com) |
2025-04-22 03:22:01 +0200 | amadaluzia_ | (~amadaluzi@2a00:23c7:ed8b:6701:a7b2:bedf:19fc:3cf) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
2025-04-22 03:22:04 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> so, should i finish figuring out how to set up login on my server, or should I play with Miso to set up a Zhuangzi.io host, using the Burt Watson translation? |
2025-04-22 03:22:41 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-04-22 03:23:28 +0200 | <EvanR> | who |
2025-04-22 03:24:42 +0200 | harveypwca | (~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:f6e0:27d6:8cc7:eca9:c46c) |
2025-04-22 03:25:59 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> some dead philosopher, fond of jokes, paradox, and contradiction |
2025-04-22 03:26:14 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> was recently surprised the only free online repo is on ctext.org, using an ancient translation |
2025-04-22 03:26:35 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> Zhuangzi: Was I a butterfly dreaming that I am Zhuang Zhou, or am I Zhang Zhou dreaming that I am a butterfly? |
2025-04-22 03:26:57 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
2025-04-22 03:27:23 +0200 | abrar_ | (~abrar@static-96-245-187-163.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
2025-04-22 03:27:48 +0200 | abrar | (~abrar@static-96-245-187-163.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) |
2025-04-22 03:29:41 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> it's more about learning miso, in a low-risk project |
2025-04-22 03:29:45 +0200 | <EvanR> | 庄子 |
2025-04-22 03:30:44 +0200 | <EvanR> | or 莊子 |
2025-04-22 03:31:47 +0200 | <EvanR> | how about a dose of "before covid" times https://ro-che.info/ccc/9 |
2025-04-22 03:35:58 +0200 | <monochrom> | I don't understand why setting up login requires a translation of a Chinese philosophy text. |
2025-04-22 03:36:30 +0200 | <monochrom> | Unless you just mean "how do I make the server allow a book-length password" |
2025-04-22 03:37:21 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> by setting up login, i mean having a page and sql backend that can allow user accounts to log in |
2025-04-22 03:37:58 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i only have it set up so far that user accounts can be created, an activation e-mail can be sent, and that e-mail contains a link to a key which is checked against a table to turn the account to "activated" |
2025-04-22 03:38:53 +0200 | <monochrom> | There is actually a Japanese manga that has scene coming close to that. The password requires a pair of twins synchronously read alout a few verses from Ecclesiastes in the Bible. |
2025-04-22 03:39:54 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn |
2025-04-22 03:43:00 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> i'm still shocked the chinese haven't gone to diceware with randomly generated tang-dynasties poetry operating as passwords |
2025-04-22 03:43:58 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> 41 bits of entropy per line? |
2025-04-22 03:44:29 +0200 | merijn | (~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
2025-04-22 03:44:51 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <Liamzee> the problem is, you'd need to learn cangjie or wubi or some other code-based character input method to actually be able to input such a password efficiently |