2025/03/25

2025-03-25 00:01:30 +0100sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
2025-03-25 00:03:30 +0100iteratee(~kyle@199.119.84.78) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-03-25 00:04:14 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-03-25 00:05:48 +0100iteratee(~kyle@199.119.84.78) iteratee
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2025-03-25 00:08:44 +0100tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e1c2:84b0:caab:9b02) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-03-25 00:08:44 +0100 <EvanR> looks like building mueval is going to be fun
2025-03-25 00:11:18 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-03-25 00:12:47 +0100 <EvanR> it builds fine in isolation
2025-03-25 00:12:49 +0100sarna(~sarna@d168-237.icpnet.pl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2025-03-25 00:14:37 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-03-25 00:17:38 +0100szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) szkl
2025-03-25 00:18:31 +0100 <int-e> EvanR: https://github.com/TerenceNg03/mueval/issues/27 may be relevant
2025-03-25 00:19:09 +0100 <int-e> I've *always* patched mueval for lambdabot because it hard-codes a -static link flag and that causes it to be way slower than the dynamic way
2025-03-25 00:19:34 +0100 <EvanR> thx
2025-03-25 00:19:48 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-03-25 00:20:53 +0100 <int-e> apart from that lambdabot should be fine with ghc-9.10 as released; ghc-9.12 looked out of reach two months ago (too many dependencies broke for me to try to get it to work)
2025-03-25 00:25:45 +0100 <EvanR> and it needs an environment file
2025-03-25 00:26:18 +0100 <EvanR> I'm on GHC 9.6
2025-03-25 00:28:09 +0100 <mauke> monochrom++ # continuations and stuff
2025-03-25 00:30:25 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-03-25 00:30:34 +0100__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2025-03-25 00:31:36 +0100 <Axman6> monochrom (\r -> r+1)
2025-03-25 00:32:05 +0100 <mauke> .oO( monochrom succ )
2025-03-25 00:33:13 +0100 <Axman6> so rude
2025-03-25 00:35:25 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-03-25 00:37:59 +0100 <Axman6> monochrom (negate . pred . negate)
2025-03-25 00:38:27 +0100 <EvanR> the issues tracker mentions creating a GHC environment file by making a dummy cabal project, listing the needed packages in the build-depends, then running cabal new-build "will create the GHC env file"
2025-03-25 00:38:32 +0100 <EvanR> but I see no such file anywhere
2025-03-25 00:40:04 +0100 <EvanR> or is none of this necessary if you fix the -static thing
2025-03-25 00:40:43 +0100 <geekosaur> cabal (new-)build hasn't done that for a long time, I think; you need to use --package-env=…
2025-03-25 00:44:09 +0100ljdarj(~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-03-25 00:46:12 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-03-25 00:46:25 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-03-25 00:49:15 +0100 <EvanR> cabal build --write-ghc-environment-files=always
2025-03-25 00:49:41 +0100iteratee_(~kyle@199.119.84.78)
2025-03-25 00:50:48 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-03-25 00:52:45 +0100 <EvanR> noice... an at least half functional mueval binary
2025-03-25 00:52:54 +0100iteratee(~kyle@199.119.84.78) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-03-25 00:56:42 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-03-25 00:57:45 +0100 <EvanR> That explains how lambdabot can evaluate expressions, but how does it infer the types
2025-03-25 00:57:57 +0100 <EvanR> with the :t command
2025-03-25 00:58:06 +0100 <int-e> it uses ghci for that
2025-03-25 01:00:47 +0100sprotte24(~sprotte24@p200300d16f03d500a58d694121a6d0cd.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving)
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2025-03-25 01:01:33 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2025-03-25 01:01:59 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-03-25 01:14:02 +0100 <EvanR> it seems --load-file and GHC_ENVIRONMENT= don't work together, throwing a GhcException "Package environment \".ghc.environment.x86_64-linux-9.6.3\" (specified in GHC_ENVIRONMENT) not found"
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2025-03-25 01:16:27 +0100 <EvanR> and apparently isnt required anymore anyway...
2025-03-25 01:17:45 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-03-25 03:58:13 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> have we gone over this yet?
2025-03-25 03:58:14 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> https://web-frameworks-benchmark.netlify.app/result?asc=0&f=axum,actix,servant&l=haskell&metric=to…
2025-03-25 03:59:43 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-03-25 04:01:36 +0100glguy(glguy@libera/staff/glguy) glguy
2025-03-25 04:02:42 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> the surprising part is that scotty is beating axum and actix at low scales, when scotty isn't known for its performance
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2025-03-25 04:05:27 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) ChaiTRex
2025-03-25 04:09:37 +0100 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> I’d expect servant and Scotty to be the same since they’re both basically warp. A 5x diff is sus
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2025-03-25 04:28:50 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> yeah. tbh, full disclosure, both get beaten by ookami and microhttp
2025-03-25 04:29:12 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> but generally a high performance haskell library should be able to reach 50% of rust, which is just saying web frameworks need love
2025-03-25 04:31:17 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-03-25 04:36:36 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) peterbecich
2025-03-25 04:36:36 +0100werneta(~werneta@syn-071-083-160-242.res.spectrum.com) werneta
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2025-03-25 04:40:21 +0100 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> We can just FFI into the fastest C web server
2025-03-25 04:41:48 +0100 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> And use bytestring builder, with some light staging
2025-03-25 04:42:06 +0100 <monochrom> It would also be most buggy.
2025-03-25 04:43:29 +0100 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> I don’t buy that. C still runs the world
2025-03-25 04:44:22 +0100 <monochrom> But do you buy: The glue code you write for FFI adds one more opportunity for bugs?
2025-03-25 04:44:50 +0100 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> Where are all the rust network stacks. TCP/IP is the global highway of information and it’s predominantly in C
2025-03-25 04:44:50 +0100 <monochrom> IMO that's even more buggy than plain C.
2025-03-25 04:45:17 +0100 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> Rust is trying to make its way into the kernel with great difficulty
2025-03-25 04:46:23 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) alfiee
2025-03-25 04:48:36 +0100 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> It’s too pervasive. Like cobol it’s never going away
2025-03-25 04:49:20 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-03-25 04:52:37 +0100Square2(~Square4@user/square) Square
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2025-03-25 04:54:19 +0100 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> monochrom do you buy there is an inverse correlation between the most used software and the most correct software
2025-03-25 04:55:48 +0100Square(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-03-25 04:55:55 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> why does it have to be linear
2025-03-25 04:55:59 +0100 <monochrom> Sure.
2025-03-25 05:05:08 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-03-25 05:06:20 +0100 <Axman6> Well, when first looking at that benchmark, the Servant implementation uses String everywhere...
2025-03-25 05:07:20 +0100 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> Until you can make writing Lean as easy and as familiar as JavaScript, I don’t see the situation changing any time soon.
2025-03-25 05:07:22 +0100 <haskellbridge> I am optimistic about Zig though. You have to keep the foot gun accesible.
2025-03-25 05:07:33 +0100 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> Axman6: Someone is sand baggin’ us
2025-03-25 05:08:19 +0100 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> Zig embodies the Berkeley school philosophy which is why it will continue to succeed.
2025-03-25 05:09:46 +0100 <Axman6> Looking at what the servers actually do, I would be surprised if there's heaps of overhead from using String, but there could be some. Changing it to Text should reduce conversions though
2025-03-25 05:09:53 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2025-03-25 05:11:54 +0100 <monochrom> Oh Lean will never be as easy as C. Even Haskell will never be.
2025-03-25 05:12:25 +0100 <monochrom> Haskell or similar languages can be a sweet spot of not too many bugs and not too slow.
2025-03-25 05:14:07 +0100 <monochrom> But we don't even need that for the inverse correlation between most used and most correct, no? Social media has also shown us the inverse correlation between most believed and most correct. Like we need to rationalize that.
2025-03-25 05:20:54 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-03-25 05:25:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Liamzee> also re dmjio: it's possible servant breaks the specialization in warp, but i'm not really familiar with warp in terms of its type architecture
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2025-03-25 05:36:01 +0100 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> Liamzee: It wouldn’t surprise me at all if HasServer dictionaries weren’t getting specialized given the incremental compilation nature of GHC and cross module inlining limitations. But 5x still sounds heavy.
2025-03-25 05:36:29 +0100 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> monochrom: That’s fair.
2025-03-25 05:36:38 +0100alfiee(~alfiee@user/alfiee) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2025-03-25 05:37:43 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-03-25 05:42:40 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-03-25 05:44:36 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-03-25 05:44:56 +0100aforemny_(~aforemny@2001:9e8:6cde:a00:bd3b:75a2:c3bc:65be) aforemny
2025-03-25 05:45:48 +0100weary-traveler(~user@user/user363627) user363627
2025-03-25 05:46:42 +0100aforemny(~aforemny@2001:9e8:6cc3:cb00:4bbe:2838:488d:a24d) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2025-03-25 05:51:02 +0100 <davean> dmjio that is also a lot of parsing via a lot of type level implied machinery
2025-03-25 05:52:38 +0100jmcantrell(~weechat@user/jmcantrell) (Quit: WeeChat 4.5.2)
2025-03-25 05:53:08 +0100 <haskellbridge> <dmjio> The biggest upfront cost is the first request. The graph reduces and subsequent requests do less work
2025-03-25 05:53:29 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn