2024/08/25

2024-08-25 00:01:38 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
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2024-08-25 00:09:24 +0200cpressey(~weechat@176.254.71.203)
2024-08-25 00:11:00 +0200JuanDaugherty(~juan@user/JuanDaugherty) (Quit: JuanDaugherty)
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2024-08-25 00:44:29 +0200 <EvanR> talismanick, I recall a talk one time which asked how working/correct could cloud haskell be
2024-08-25 00:44:48 +0200 <EvanR> a slide answered this by saying it would be as reliable as TCP/IP
2024-08-25 00:45:32 +0200NiKaN(sid385034@id-385034.helmsley.irccloud.com)
2024-08-25 00:45:34 +0200 <EvanR> re: distributed stuff that doesn't break
2024-08-25 00:50:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-08-25 01:12:18 +0200 <talismanick> EvanR: well, there's the CAP theorem saying you can't have your cake and eat it too - I acknowledge that - but there's a lot you can work with in special cases, especially if you drop consistency for monotonicity
2024-08-25 01:12:45 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-25 01:12:46 +0200 <EvanR> inconsistency, fun
2024-08-25 01:12:51 +0200hueso(~root@user/hueso) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2024-08-25 01:13:27 +0200 <talismanick> TCP acknowledges fallability in the general case - it tries to send packets as many times as needed to pass the full message - and makes tradeoffs
2024-08-25 01:13:48 +0200 <talismanick> does that mean Cloud Haskell aims to make the same compromises?
2024-08-25 01:14:08 +0200 <talismanick> and monotonicity gets you most of what you want from consistency...
2024-08-25 01:14:10 +0200hueso(~root@user/hueso)
2024-08-25 01:14:24 +0200 <talismanick> (intuitively speaking, imho anyways)
2024-08-25 01:15:16 +0200 <talismanick> http://bloom-lang.net/calm/
2024-08-25 01:17:24 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-08-25 01:18:54 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2024-08-25 01:20:40 +0200neuroevolutus(~neuroevol@206.217.206.95)
2024-08-25 01:22:47 +0200 <EvanR> iirc they run their protocol on top of TCP
2024-08-25 01:22:57 +0200 <talismanick> ah
2024-08-25 01:23:10 +0200ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a01:c23:9184:ed00:199f:acb6:dc24:b32) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-08-25 01:23:27 +0200ash3en(~Thunderbi@146.70.124.138)
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2024-08-25 01:23:50 +0200 <talismanick> so it's more akin to a set of "typed as best as possible" building blocks for process calculi, paxos, etc?
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2024-08-25 03:16:21 +0200troydm(~troydm@user/troydm) (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset)
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2024-08-25 04:11:11 +0200 <liamzy__> __monty__
2024-08-25 04:11:12 +0200 <liamzy__> sorry
2024-08-25 04:11:14 +0200liamzy__Inst
2024-08-25 04:12:01 +0200 <Inst> https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/program/binarytrees-ghc-8.html
2024-08-25 04:12:03 +0200 <Inst> I mean this stuff
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2024-08-25 09:42:12 +0200lxsameer(~lxsameer@Serene/lxsameer)
2024-08-25 09:44:09 +0200 <regev> hey there, haskell newbie here, im currently learning haskell from "Learn you a Haskell" and im reading about typeclasses. I was wondering if someone has a comprehensive chart that shows the hierarcy of the default typeclasses is haskell?
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2024-08-25 09:45:11 +0200 <Franciman> hi regev maybe you can like typeclassopedia
2024-08-25 09:45:45 +0200 <Franciman> https://wiki.haskell.org/Typeclassopedia there is a graph here
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2024-08-25 12:14:05 +0200 <regev> hey there, haskell newbie here, im currently learning haskell from "Learn you a Haskell" and im reading about typeclasses. I was wondering if someone has a │ _d0t
2024-08-25 12:14:05 +0200 <regev> │ | comprehensive chart that shows the hierarcy of the default typeclasses is haskell?y
2024-08-25 12:14:10 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-08-25 12:14:59 +0200 <regev> oops, tried to copy paste :)
2024-08-25 12:15:13 +0200 <sm> you saw Franciman's previous answer ? https://wiki.haskell.org/Typeclassopedia
2024-08-25 12:15:27 +0200 <regev> typing again so its readable: does anyone have a comprehensive chart of all default typeclasses in haskell?
2024-08-25 12:15:44 +0200 <regev> nope i exited, sorry
2024-08-25 12:15:53 +0200 <sm> well there it is :)
2024-08-25 12:16:43 +0200 <regev> thank you!
2024-08-25 12:18:09 +0200 <sm> don't feel as a newbie you must master all of this
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2024-08-25 12:25:33 +0200 <mauke> doesn't even mention Ix
2024-08-25 12:26:38 +0200 <mauke> as a beginner, the most important classes are probably Show, Eq, Ord, Num
2024-08-25 12:26:47 +0200 <mauke> Enum and Functor if you want to get fancy
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2024-08-25 13:19:21 +0200 <haskellbridge> <eldritchcookie> Enum and Bounded i can agree but Functor is broadly useful and easy to get an intuition for i would be more undecided on Applicative and Monad but you should still know they exist.
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2024-08-25 18:39:55 +0200oo_miguel(~Thunderbi@78.10.207.45)
2024-08-25 18:39:56 +0200 <spew> Hi all, I'm reading Hutton's "Programming in Haskell" and one of the exercises is to implement a readLine :: IO String action that reads a string but allows you to delete characters.
2024-08-25 18:40:06 +0200 <spew> What I came up with is this: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/EJut3AMm
2024-08-25 18:40:27 +0200 <spew> but I'm wondering if there's a way to do it with some kind of monadic fold instead of using a recursive "go" helper
2024-08-25 18:47:19 +0200 <c_wraith> it certainly could be, but given the structure of what you're doing it wouldn't really make anything cleaner
2024-08-25 18:47:58 +0200 <spew> c_wraith: ty
2024-08-25 18:49:29 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-25 18:54:11 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2024-08-25 18:58:58 +0200 <monochrom> It is not a fold, it is an unfold.
2024-08-25 19:01:49 +0200 <spew> I was trying to do something with this `takeWhile (/= '\n') <$> (sequence $ repeat getCh)` but it doesn't seem to halt at the newline
2024-08-25 19:03:10 +0200 <monochrom> I/O is not lazy.
2024-08-25 19:03:35 +0200 <spew> monochrom: ty
2024-08-25 19:03:45 +0200 <spew> then I thought I could map over that thing
2024-08-25 19:04:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-25 19:06:55 +0200 <spew> perhaps with takeWhileM from Control.Monad.Loops?
2024-08-25 19:09:31 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-08-25 19:15:05 +0200 <EvanR> :t takeWhileM
2024-08-25 19:15:06 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2024-08-25 19:15:06 +0200 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: takeWhileM
2024-08-25 19:15:06 +0200 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant one of these:
2024-08-25 19:15:49 +0200 <EvanR> Monad m => (a -> m Bool) -> [a] -> m [a]
2024-08-25 19:16:16 +0200 <EvanR> doesn't seem like what you want
2024-08-25 19:16:42 +0200 <EvanR> somethingM :: Monad m => m (Maybe a) -> m [a]
2024-08-25 19:17:10 +0200 <EvanR> do action to get a's until it fails, return the list of a
2024-08-25 19:19:02 +0200 <EvanR> it's called unfoldM in monad-loops
2024-08-25 19:20:11 +0200 <spew> EvanR: thanks very much! I will check that out
2024-08-25 19:20:19 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2024-08-25 19:23:39 +0200 <c_wraith> it's not an unfold, either
2024-08-25 19:23:52 +0200 <c_wraith> it needs to be able to edit previous results
2024-08-25 19:23:59 +0200 <c_wraith> unfolds can't do that
2024-08-25 19:24:36 +0200 <c_wraith> you can abuse an unfold to do the job, but it's not a natural fit
2024-08-25 19:24:54 +0200 <EvanR> you could still do it with unfoldM, by consuming multiple characters if you encounter one to be erased
2024-08-25 19:25:04 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-08-25 19:25:35 +0200 <EvanR> it's not natural until something is a natural transformation!
2024-08-25 19:26:20 +0200 <c_wraith> what? unfoldM hard commits to output, and you don't recognize that you need to delete something but l you've already committed to it
2024-08-25 19:26:41 +0200 <c_wraith> *until you've committed, that is
2024-08-25 19:26:42 +0200 <EvanR> I don't know what with actual exercise is, I just read "allows you to delete characters"
2024-08-25 19:26:57 +0200 <EvanR> if you know what characters to delete it would work
2024-08-25 19:27:06 +0200 <c_wraith> read as "allows you to hit backspace"
2024-08-25 19:27:11 +0200 <EvanR> oh lol
2024-08-25 19:27:18 +0200 <EvanR> there be dragons
2024-08-25 19:27:23 +0200 <EvanR> terminal control sequences
2024-08-25 19:27:53 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73c8f.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-08-25 19:27:57 +0200 <c_wraith> eh, it's fine to just output ASCII control codes for an exercise at this level, which is what it's doing
2024-08-25 19:28:32 +0200 <c_wraith> but the point is that you're out of the realm of an unfold unless you're using a reference to smuggle mutation in
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2024-08-25 19:47:52 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Yeah no recursion scheme I looked at could modify the past (or see the future, for that matter), histomorphisms see the past, futumorphisms control the future and chronomorphisms do both, but neither is entirely suitable
2024-08-25 19:49:02 +0200 <spew> Bowuigi: thanks very much, thanks to everyone for taking a look
2024-08-25 19:50:27 +0200Square(~Square@user/square)
2024-08-25 19:50:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-25 19:54:03 +0200waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
2024-08-25 19:54:28 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> On a similar topic, I wonder if any total anamorphism returning a finite structure can be turned into a catamorphism. Lean does something similar using well founded recursion and converts these functions into catas over Nat, but I don't know if there's a less "proof-y" way to do this
2024-08-25 19:54:52 +0200talismanick(~user@2601:644:937c:ed10::ae5) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2024-08-25 19:56:30 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> I'm designing a total configuration language (in a sense, similar to dhall) that's very theory-focused while trying to remain small and efficient in implementation (in a sense, similar to smalltt)
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2024-08-25 19:58:44 +0200 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> As I am using recursion schemes paired with heavily simplified recursive types, the less stuff I have to deal with, the better
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2024-08-25 23:21:06 +0200bert96(~bert@143.58.222.152)
2024-08-25 23:21:17 +0200 <bert96> hi, im needing help
2024-08-25 23:21:48 +0200 <bert96> i am wondering if there are people that are currently using the chat, that might be able to help!
2024-08-25 23:22:16 +0200 <Rembane> bert96: Ask the question and we'll see!
2024-08-25 23:22:18 +0200 <bert96> im not too good with haskells "do" notation, presumably because even though i understand monads very well
2024-08-25 23:22:35 +0200 <bert96> that im not good enough to understand what im doing is what monads can do within the do notation
2024-08-25 23:23:08 +0200AlexNoo_(~AlexNoo@178.34.150.250) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-08-25 23:23:10 +0200 <bert96> heres the task. i have a kind of "language" which is supposed to be based on linear types, but we can forget that bit for now. it is a "stateful" langage
2024-08-25 23:23:23 +0200 <bert96> all functions are replaced with stateful opperators
2024-08-25 23:23:45 +0200 <bert96> they return updated versions of themselves (the linear bit is that the original must not be referenced again, like it is deleted)
2024-08-25 23:24:06 +0200 <bert96> so instead of having functions that return either other functions, or values
2024-08-25 23:24:46 +0200 <bert96> ie one input one output, there is always 2 outputs, since it gives the modified "function" (its actually a mix of a function and the first argument, so just like it has 2 "outputs" it has 2 inputs)
2024-08-25 23:24:54 +0200 <bert96> f s
2024-08-25 23:25:06 +0200AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.150.250) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-08-25 23:25:13 +0200 <bert96> there is now also a "regularization"
2024-08-25 23:25:28 +0200 <bert96> as well as returning output, and modified state function, it gives a "loss" which is accrued
2024-08-25 23:25:31 +0200 <monochrom> If you are not good with "do" notation, you can always stick to >>=
2024-08-25 23:25:46 +0200 <bert96> do notation is great for this, as it allows the new state and output to be bound into scope easily
2024-08-25 23:25:47 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-25 23:25:59 +0200 <bert96> however, i dont like having to also handle the regularizing double
2024-08-25 23:26:03 +0200 <monochrom> If you are not good with >>= either, then your claim of "I understand monads very well" is busted.
2024-08-25 23:26:07 +0200 <bert96> i was wondering if choice of monad could do this
2024-08-25 23:26:13 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73c8f.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-08-25 23:26:37 +0200 <bert96> i could write something like f s i >>= \ (reg,s',o) -> ...
2024-08-25 23:26:49 +0200 <bert96> but the idea is that its a deep model, with many state functions
2024-08-25 23:27:14 +0200 <bert96> and binding the s' and o variables into scope allows the user to put them as inputs easily
2024-08-25 23:27:24 +0200 <bert96> however, i want all the reg :: Double, to simply be added up
2024-08-25 23:27:28 +0200 <bert96> and not have to handle this
2024-08-25 23:27:42 +0200 <bert96> can i do this with choice of some particular monadic behaviour?
2024-08-25 23:28:06 +0200 <monochrom> Writer (Sum Double) is a monad that can do the addition under the hood.
2024-08-25 23:28:14 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73c8f.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-08-25 23:28:17 +0200 <bert96> awesome!
2024-08-25 23:28:49 +0200 <bert96> i could write a short example in a paste, so that it could be possible to see how this would translate with use of Writer (Sum Double) ?
2024-08-25 23:29:29 +0200AlexNoo(~AlexNoo@178.34.150.250)
2024-08-25 23:30:39 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-08-25 23:31:00 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2024-08-25 23:34:21 +0200 <monochrom> % import Control.Monad.Writer ; import Data.Monoid
2024-08-25 23:34:21 +0200 <yahb2> <no output>
2024-08-25 23:34:43 +0200 <monochrom> % runWriter (tell (Sum 1.1) >>= \_ -> tell (Sum 2.2))
2024-08-25 23:34:43 +0200 <yahb2> ((),Sum {getSum = 3.3000000000000003})
2024-08-25 23:35:00 +0200 <bert96> here https://paste.tomsmeding.com/kbAbNFEZ
2024-08-25 23:35:53 +0200 <probie> You almost definitely want `Control.Monad.Writer.Strict` if you're working with `Sum Double`
2024-08-25 23:36:14 +0200 <monochrom> Oh oops yeah.
2024-08-25 23:36:19 +0200 <monochrom> % :quit
2024-08-25 23:36:19 +0200 <yahb2> <bye>
2024-08-25 23:36:21 +0200sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-08-25 23:36:27 +0200 <monochrom> % import Control.Monad.Writer.Strict ; import Data.Monoid
2024-08-25 23:36:27 +0200 <yahb2> <no output>
2024-08-25 23:36:31 +0200 <monochrom> % runWriter (tell (Sum 1.1) >>= \_ -> tell (Sum 2.2))
2024-08-25 23:36:31 +0200 <yahb2> ((),Sum {getSum = 3.3000000000000003})
2024-08-25 23:36:34 +0200 <monochrom> :)
2024-08-25 23:36:57 +0200 <monochrom> That paste doesn't type-check.
2024-08-25 23:37:48 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73c8f.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-08-25 23:37:49 +0200 <monochrom> Today is one of those days when I join those people who insist that if a program doesn't type-check then it has no semantics.
2024-08-25 23:38:06 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73c8f.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-08-25 23:38:38 +0200 <monochrom> OK fine this one is just the monomorphism restriction.
2024-08-25 23:38:55 +0200 <bert96> its needing; go :: IO (Reg,(S1,S2),Double)
2024-08-25 23:39:32 +0200 <bert96> i guess i need actually to have it be Sum not IO though...
2024-08-25 23:40:42 +0200 <monochrom> use "type Reg = Sum Double" and have "Writer Reg" and use tell for each number. I showed an example.
2024-08-25 23:41:12 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-25 23:42:39 +0200orayn(~orayn@user/orayn) (Quit: Client closed)
2024-08-25 23:44:11 +0200 <bert96> i have no idea how to do this
2024-08-25 23:44:39 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73c8f.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-08-25 23:44:48 +0200 <bert96> what do you mean, have "Writer Reg"
2024-08-25 23:45:18 +0200 <bert96> IO (Writer Reg,(S1,S2),Double) does not make sense
2024-08-25 23:45:37 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-08-25 23:45:38 +0200 <bert96> how does it maintain the outputs and states as output?
2024-08-25 23:45:44 +0200 <bert96> i dont get how it typechecks?
2024-08-25 23:45:46 +0200 <probie> bert96: https://play.haskell.org/saved/9El1Zcec perhaps something like
2024-08-25 23:46:06 +0200 <bert96> thanks!
2024-08-25 23:46:16 +0200AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.150.250)
2024-08-25 23:47:01 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d50-99-47-73.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2024-08-25 23:49:06 +0200 <bert96> is there a way to compse together the state functions?
2024-08-25 23:49:12 +0200 <bert96> compose*
2024-08-25 23:49:15 +0200ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a02:3100:7da1:ca00:1a49:3dad:2797:7373)
2024-08-25 23:49:54 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73c8f.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-08-25 23:52:06 +0200 <bert96> i was thinking of having a HList, but i guess if there is a binary composition function, i can just have a big nested set of pairs
2024-08-25 23:52:42 +0200 <bert96> maybe its best to just do it in the do scope
2024-08-25 23:52:47 +0200 <bert96> yeah, i think that was the idea
2024-08-25 23:53:07 +0200 <bert96> i guess its just sugar on the types
2024-08-25 23:53:12 +0200 <bert96> ill try and write up what i mean
2024-08-25 23:56:38 +0200merijn(~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2024-08-25 23:58:49 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73c8f.dyn.optonline.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)