| 2024-03-30 00:01:02 +0000 | <nij-> | Btw, is there anyway one can have a proof showing that the methods of a new Monad really satisfy the Monad rules? |
| 2024-03-30 00:01:51 +0000 | <ncf> | you can write an informal proof by chaining together haskell pseudo-equalities, or you can write it in Agda |
| 2024-03-30 00:01:56 +0000 | destituion | (~destituio@2a02:2121:655:c95b:c9ef:1cc8:963c:45) |
| 2024-03-30 00:02:04 +0000 | <geekosaur> | you can, but not in Haskell. you need to switch to Agda or Idris or Coq, etc. |
| 2024-03-30 00:02:46 +0000 | <geekosaur> | with, again, the price that you need to carry the proof around with you all the time |
| 2024-03-30 00:03:34 +0000 | <geekosaur> | kinda the computer version of "with great power comes great responsibility" |
| 2024-03-30 00:04:03 +0000 | <ncf> | presumably a decent compiler would ensure the laws are erased |
| 2024-03-30 00:05:05 +0000 | <nij-> | Once a proof is completed in Agda, can Agda tell if that proof describes the case of the monad I implemented in haskell? |
| 2024-03-30 00:05:30 +0000 | <nij-> | I mean, we surely can prove stuff in Agda. But how to link that proof with the actual implementation I have in haskell? |
| 2024-03-30 00:05:34 +0000 | <geekosaur> | if you want that, you usually export Haskell code from Agda |
| 2024-03-30 00:05:46 +0000 | <ncf> | there are tools like agda2hs |
| 2024-03-30 00:06:25 +0000 | <geekosaur> | so for example we did that with XMonad.StackSet which is the heart of the xmonad window manager |
| 2024-03-30 00:10:14 +0000 | <nij-> | Amazing |
| 2024-03-30 00:10:28 +0000 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-03-30 00:11:04 +0000 | <geekosaur> | (sadly "isn't a UX disaster" is not something a proof checker can test…) |
| 2024-03-30 00:12:14 +0000 | <ncf> | that being said i'm not actually aware of any agda library that formalises lawful monads on the "ambient" category of types 😅 most of them focus on either general monads in category theory or unlawful monads for (meta)programming |
| 2024-03-30 00:12:37 +0000 | <ncf> | i guess you could instantiate the former with the category of sets |
| 2024-03-30 00:13:39 +0000 | <ncf> | ah jesper's post on agda2hs describes precisely the lawful monad use case https://jesper.sikanda.be/posts/agda2hs.html |
| 2024-03-30 00:18:55 +0000 | rvalue | (~rvalue@user/rvalue) |
| 2024-03-30 00:19:21 +0000 | Achylles | (~Achylles_@45.182.57.13) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
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| 2024-03-30 00:32:23 +0000 | euleritian | (~euleritia@dynamic-176-005-145-045.176.5.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2024-03-30 00:33:24 +0000 | tri | (~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net) |
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| 2024-03-30 00:49:54 +0000 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2024-03-30 00:58:46 +0000 | bilegeek | (~bilegeek@2600:1008:b05f:9e00:3c20:c464:db7:a3d7) |
| 2024-03-30 00:59:35 +0000 | Batzy | (~quassel@user/batzy) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) |
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| 2024-03-30 01:25:24 +0000 | [Leary] | (~Leary]@user/Leary/x-0910699) |
| 2024-03-30 01:26:41 +0000 | shapr` | (~user@c-24-218-186-89.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 2024-03-30 01:27:16 +0000 | tri | (~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 2024-03-30 01:28:39 +0000 | shapr | (~user@c-24-218-186-89.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-03-30 01:34:55 +0000 | tri | (~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-03-30 01:45:38 +0000 | xal | (~xal@mx1.xal.systems) |
| 2024-03-30 01:46:47 +0000 | mmhat | (~mmh@p200300f1c706a223ee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2024-03-30 01:47:15 +0000 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!) |
| 2024-03-30 01:53:25 +0000 | <ski> | geekosaur : "which would be a loop if it were an actual superclass" -- whyfore ? |
| 2024-03-30 01:53:29 +0000 | Inst_ | (~Inst@120.244.192.126) |
| 2024-03-30 01:54:11 +0000 | <ski> | "the only thing you can do with a polymorphic value is pass (a pointer to) it around unmodified, or ignore it" -- no. `maybeToList :: forall a. Maybe a -> [a]' is a polymorphic value (and `maybeToList @Bool' is not), but `x' in `maybeToList (Just x) = [x]' is *not* polymorphic. it has the abstract/hidden/forgotten/opaque/skolem type `a', being a type variable in the type of `maybeToList' |
| 2024-03-30 01:55:07 +0000 | <geekosaur> | I was cutting corners all over the place, yes |
| 2024-03-30 01:55:32 +0000 | <geekosaur> | not sure introducing skolems to someone who's weak on the basics is a real good idea |
| 2024-03-30 01:55:35 +0000 | <ski> | (`f' in the rank-2 `foo :: (forall a. [a] -> [a]) -> Int; foo f = f (reverse (f [2,3,5,7])' *is* polymorphic, though) |
| 2024-03-30 01:56:15 +0000 | <ski> | not sure about how to introduce it either .. but it'd definitely not polymorphic |
| 2024-03-30 02:06:28 +0000 | shapr` | shapr |
| 2024-03-30 02:06:52 +0000 | shapr | (~user@c-24-218-186-89.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Quit: sleep) |
| 2024-03-30 02:11:11 +0000 | nij- | (~NIL@2601:180:8300:6610:742b:f451:84ff:e5af) (Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients) |
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| 2024-03-30 02:28:26 +0000 | Inst_ | Inst |
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| 2024-03-30 10:31:04 +0000 | Lord_of_Life_ | Lord_of_Life |
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| 2024-03-30 11:18:30 +0000 | jtza8 | (~user@user/jtza8) |
| 2024-03-30 11:20:39 +0000 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-03-30 11:20:43 +0000 | <jtza8> | Hi all, I'm looking to use Haskell in an in-house comercial context, and I was wondering what my desktop UI options are? |
| 2024-03-30 11:21:08 +0000 | <jtza8> | I've been looking at wxHaskell, but it seems to not be up to date. |
| 2024-03-30 11:22:33 +0000 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-03-30 11:22:45 +0000 | <jtza8> | Does anyone here know why? I could put in some work to fix things, it would probably be cheaper than to get a license for Qt. |
| 2024-03-30 11:23:42 +0000 | <jtza8> | (The target machines will be running Windows.) |
| 2024-03-30 11:38:09 +0000 | nickiminjaj | (~nickiminj@user/laxhh) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-03-30 11:39:07 +0000 | Etabeta1 | (~Etabeta1@176.207.241.56) (Quit: quit) |
| 2024-03-30 11:39:18 +0000 | triceraptor | (~prodmezha@149.102.244.113) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
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| 2024-03-30 11:40:02 +0000 | Etabeta1 | (~Etabeta1@176.207.241.56) |
| 2024-03-30 11:42:04 +0000 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
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| 2024-03-30 11:49:36 +0000 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) |
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| 2024-03-30 12:00:13 +0000 | quelln | (~quelln@2405:201:300c:e1c8:6501:321c:bcff:9364) |
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| 2024-03-30 12:05:51 +0000 | <[exa]> | jtza8: the GTK support is actually pretty good, and IMO portable easily |
| 2024-03-30 12:06:28 +0000 | <[exa]> | I only did small apps in that, but the demos in the repo look quite solid |
| 2024-03-30 12:07:43 +0000 | <[exa]> | (also probably depends a lot on what the app would be supposed do) |
| 2024-03-30 12:07:50 +0000 | euphores | (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) |
| 2024-03-30 12:10:04 +0000 | <jtza8> | Thanks [exa]. I suspect I might get away with using GTK, I'm just a bit worried about the license not working out in the long term. |
| 2024-03-30 12:12:34 +0000 | <[exa]> | gtk is iirc lesser GPL right? |
| 2024-03-30 12:13:46 +0000 | <[exa]> | (that should work even for commercial pruposes. like, it's gonna cost you a bit of supporting paperwork and a license notice somewhere, but no need to GPL your source or anything like that) |
| 2024-03-30 12:13:47 +0000 | nickiminjaj | (~nickiminj@user/laxhh) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-03-30 12:15:06 +0000 | <yushyin> | https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/blob/main/COPYING (correct, it's lgpl2.1+) |
| 2024-03-30 12:15:52 +0000 | <[exa]> | yay |
| 2024-03-30 12:16:58 +0000 | <yushyin> | (or 2.0 but whatever :D) |
| 2024-03-30 12:17:50 +0000 | <[exa]> | btw the other sensible way would be the browsery one (Elm or Miso or FRP or so) but these were kinda disappointing for me for various minor reasons |
| 2024-03-30 12:20:54 +0000 | <jtza8> | I've looked into those, you're right, they're a bit disappointing. I'm looking into threepenny, but I'd be a lot happier if I don't need to lug a brower around (Electron). |
| 2024-03-30 12:22:28 +0000 | <[exa]> | btw is the app more like officey one or very interactive graphical one? |
| 2024-03-30 12:22:41 +0000 | <jtza8> | More officey. |
| 2024-03-30 12:22:59 +0000 | <[exa]> | ah ok.. in the other case you might consider looking at some of the ImGui libs |
| 2024-03-30 12:24:26 +0000 | <[exa]> | for officey just go gtk, it's stable, there are several yuge software packages that will drag it to stability and portability, and on windows it IMO renders much better and "native" than qt |
| 2024-03-30 12:25:17 +0000 | <jtza8> | I agree, and it seems like my licensing concerns were unfounded. |
| 2024-03-30 12:26:06 +0000 | <jtza8> | Thanks again, you've given me a few things to think through. |
| 2024-03-30 12:26:31 +0000 | Etabeta1 | (~Etabeta1@176.207.241.56) |
| 2024-03-30 12:27:59 +0000 | qqq | (~qqq@92.43.167.61) |
| 2024-03-30 12:28:17 +0000 | <[exa]> | yw :) good luck there |
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| 2024-03-30 14:05:06 +0000 | <dmj`> | [exa]: just curious what did you find disappointing |
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