2024/02/29

2024-02-29 00:00:09 +0100julie_pilgrim(~julie_pil@user/julie-pilgrim/x-1240752)
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2024-02-29 00:24:08 +0100julie_pilgrim(~julie_pil@user/julie-pilgrim/x-1240752)
2024-02-29 00:26:00 +0100fraznel(~fuag1@c-73-221-56-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2024-02-29 00:27:07 +0100 <fraznel> hey all, i've been digging into the ghc alternatives and its very cool! I'm going off of haskell_ghc_illustrated for ghc 9 and it's mostly clicking but unclear around the stm data structure and atomically
2024-02-29 00:28:20 +0100 <fraznel> during an atomically box with multiple TVars, where do the intermediary thunks get stored and how is the Invariant check queue handled so that its an atomic commit on all at once, is there a lock per atomically block that itself aquires all locks of all tvars before commiting a block otherwise goes into a retry? Are tvar thunks evaluated fully before a commit? etc
2024-02-29 00:29:14 +0100 <fraznel> i see trec entries being added but its unclear how the multiple potential futures of those vars are represented or how the final invariant check is resolved. It's fine if the answer is "go look at the data structure source" but thought maybe there was a quicker answer here
2024-02-29 00:29:47 +0100 <fraznel> s/ghc alternatives/ghc internals/g
2024-02-29 00:30:50 +0100 <fraznel> actually it looks like the trecentries are those temporaries and it looks like possible the atomically box can be pre-empted into a retry by involved tvars changing maybe... Just not clear how the final commit is done atomically across all tvars involved
2024-02-29 00:32:45 +0100julie_pilgrim(~julie_pil@user/julie-pilgrim/x-1240752) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-29 00:35:17 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-29 00:40:18 +0100 <glguy> fraznel: are you basically looking for a paper that describes how STM is implemented?
2024-02-29 00:41:59 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-02-29 00:46:23 +0100 <fraznel> no, just thought someone here might be like. oh yeah, they do take locks on all tvars prior to commits
2024-02-29 00:46:36 +0100 <fraznel> but like i said, comfy reading the source if thats the best place to find things out too
2024-02-29 00:48:11 +0100 <fraznel> happy to read a paper if there is one as well. But thought it was worth a shot asking in the channel before digging through the implementation
2024-02-29 00:49:18 +0100 <EvanR> I think transactions which don't overlap in any way won't block each other, one of the whole points of STM
2024-02-29 00:49:39 +0100 <EvanR> so no taking all locks on all TVars ever
2024-02-29 00:49:47 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-02-29 00:51:44 +0100 <fraznel> Yes but there has to be a reconciliation on multiple tvar atomically blocks on final commit still in some form, whether its with something like barriers / fences etc or locks. From what I understand now its an optimistic work model where they check if vars have been modified on final commit and rerun if needed with a possible pre-emption on involved vars changing during work
2024-02-29 00:56:47 +0100bontaq(~user@ool-45779c03.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-02-29 01:03:08 +0100 <EvanR> yep something very clever. I only read the original STM paper, not sure what modern GHC does
2024-02-29 01:19:25 +0100son0p(~ff@167.0.160.226)
2024-02-29 01:20:39 +0100 <bontaq> say with the record dot syntax, can I do something like roles = .role <$> messages, to get a list of roles from a list of messages with roles?
2024-02-29 01:21:53 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net)
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2024-02-29 01:32:09 +0100 <fraznel> bontaq, hard to say without code but if messages is a list of data with a role field then if it works like normal functions something like... flip (.) role <$> messages
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2024-02-29 01:39:57 +0100 <bontaq> innteresting, and yeah just a simple list of message records with a role field, tyty
2024-02-29 01:47:31 +0100sprout_(~quassel@2a02-a448-3a80-0-20c8-15f6-5661-7ff0.fixed6.kpn.net)
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2024-02-29 01:54:00 +0100 <fraznel> bontaq, jus a thought, it should get optimized out probably but the (.) is doing non-sense work in that case. you probably just want role <$> messages
2024-02-29 01:55:36 +0100 <geekosaur> fraznel, RecordDotSyntax is not the (.) operator
2024-02-29 01:56:03 +0100mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5c9a:a600::83e8)
2024-02-29 02:00:21 +0100shapr`(~user@c-24-218-186-89.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
2024-02-29 02:01:46 +0100 <fraznel> oh
2024-02-29 02:02:05 +0100Square2(~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2024-02-29 02:02:38 +0100 <fraznel> i see, then more like `.role <$> messages`
2024-02-29 02:02:46 +0100 <fraznel> thats odd
2024-02-29 02:03:03 +0100 <fraznel> er.., (.role) <$> messages
2024-02-29 02:08:02 +0100mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5c9a:a600::83e8) (Quit: Going elsewhere)
2024-02-29 02:09:11 +0100 <bontaq> oho it does work with the parenthesis around it!
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2024-02-29 11:38:09 +0100 <haskellbridge> <o​rbicularis> yes, you're trying to make a section, that won't happen without parentheses.
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2024-02-29 14:19:39 +0100 <lortabac> am I the only one who has problems with name resolution from time to time?
2024-02-29 14:20:20 +0100 <lortabac> it has happened to me on various GHC versions, sometimes I need to import a module qualified otherwise I get a "variable not in scope" error
2024-02-29 14:20:56 +0100 <lortabac> unfortunately it's hard to make a minimal reproducible example, but I will try
2024-02-29 14:21:50 +0100gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2024-02-29 14:32:04 +0100bontaq(~user@ool-45779c03.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-02-29 14:39:03 +0100 <shapr> lortabac: I've never seen that, sounds interesting
2024-02-29 14:42:35 +0100 <lortabac> I can't find any GHC tickets related to this problem
2024-02-29 14:43:45 +0100 <shapr> I think I started with ghc 5, and I've not seen that yet
2024-02-29 14:44:02 +0100 <lortabac> it's happened to me 2-3 times in about 10 years, so I'm not surprised nobody talks about this
2024-02-29 14:46:23 +0100 <shapr> I can't actually find GHC release history for 2001, I don't know what version I started using
2024-02-29 14:46:27 +0100shaprshrugs
2024-02-29 14:47:11 +0100 <lortabac> GHC prehistory :)
2024-02-29 14:48:05 +0100 <shapr> could have been ghc 4, was probably ghc 5, but you definitely had to download and build it yourself whenever there was a new release
2024-02-29 14:48:49 +0100 <shapr> lortabac: I'd certainly like to see that error
2024-02-29 14:49:38 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-02-29 14:52:41 +0100zetef(~quassel@95.77.17.251)
2024-02-29 14:52:43 +0100 <lortabac> shapr: it's company code and the module dependency graph is quite complex
2024-02-29 14:53:46 +0100 <shapr> aw, too bad
2024-02-29 14:53:55 +0100shapr(~user@2603:3005:b31:e100:6e85:7f4d:b05b:5e48) (Quit: time for a walk)
2024-02-29 14:54:00 +0100 <lortabac> maybe I can try to replicate the module structure but use different names and no function bodies
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2024-02-29 16:04:33 +0100 <kuribas> units seem one of the most compelling reasons to have (dependent) types, it's so easy to make mistakes with wrong units.
2024-02-29 16:06:07 +0100remmie(ianremsen@tilde.team)
2024-02-29 16:07:15 +0100danse-nr3(~danse@151.47.158.59)
2024-02-29 16:07:23 +0100natechan(~nate@c-98-45-158-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2024-02-29 16:08:26 +0100 <EvanR> does that require dependent types really?
2024-02-29 16:08:41 +0100 <EvanR> seems like a type family or something
2024-02-29 16:09:11 +0100 <EvanR> worst case scenario each combination of units is its own newtype
2024-02-29 16:09:27 +0100 <EvanR> but the type doesn't depend on values
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2024-02-29 16:11:22 +0100AlexZenon(~alzenon@5.139.232.115)
2024-02-29 16:13:22 +0100 <lortabac> EvanR: as usual, it depends on what you need to do
2024-02-29 16:14:39 +0100 <lortabac> if the unit is only known at runtime then yes, you need dependent types
2024-02-29 16:15:03 +0100 <lortabac> (or some complicated emulation like singletons)
2024-02-29 16:19:54 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-02-29 16:26:10 +0100destituion(~destituio@85.221.111.174) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-02-29 16:27:09 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-02-29 16:33:06 +0100 <kuribas> well, you can emulate most dependent types in some way.
2024-02-29 16:33:09 +0100 <kuribas> It just isn't pretty.
2024-02-29 16:33:45 +0100 <kuribas> You wouldn't even need types, you could make a runtime value that creates a runtime error, still better than just providing wrong values.
2024-02-29 16:34:30 +0100 <kuribas> lortabac: well, the unit would be known at compile time.
2024-02-29 16:34:30 +0100Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2024-02-29 16:34:41 +0100 <kuribas> But may involve some more complicated calculations.
2024-02-29 16:35:14 +0100 <kuribas> like: "m/s^2 * s = m/s"
2024-02-29 16:37:36 +0100average(uid473595@user/average)
2024-02-29 16:42:37 +0100 <lortabac> kuribas: that case can be handled with type families (even though it may get complicated)
2024-02-29 16:43:44 +0100destituion(~destituio@2a02:2121:34a:61a6:24fe:c9d8:d8a6:b37)
2024-02-29 16:44:34 +0100 <lortabac> but imagine you have a series of numbers together with their unit stored in the database, and you need to use them in a type-safe way at runtime, then type families can't be used
2024-02-29 16:45:39 +0100 <kuribas> lortabac: not with an existential?
2024-02-29 16:46:08 +0100 <kuribas> Well, you'll need a runtime type witness, like a GADT...
2024-02-29 16:46:15 +0100 <lortabac> kuribas: yes but if you want to recover the type you need a GADT
2024-02-29 16:46:17 +0100 <lortabac> exactly
2024-02-29 16:46:25 +0100 <lortabac> and you are into singletons territory
2024-02-29 16:46:58 +0100 <lortabac> which is a complicated emulation of dependent types, as I said before
2024-02-29 16:48:09 +0100sadie-sorceress(~sadie-sor@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
2024-02-29 16:48:25 +0100 <lortabac> to be honest I'd rather use Clojure than singletons :)
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2024-02-29 19:08:13 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2024-02-29 19:19:02 +0100sadie-sorceress(~sadie-sor@199.96.191.158)
2024-02-29 19:20:24 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-02-29 19:20:29 +0100target_i(~target_i@217.175.14.39)
2024-02-29 19:21:52 +0100sadie-sorceress(~sadie-sor@199.96.191.158) (Client Quit)
2024-02-29 19:25:09 +0100oneeyedalien(~oneeyedal@user/oneeyedalien)
2024-02-29 19:28:17 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-02-29 19:33:48 +0100oneeyedalien(~oneeyedal@user/oneeyedalien) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-02-29 19:35:47 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon)
2024-02-29 19:37:09 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-02-29 19:50:30 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-02-29 19:50:55 +0100EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-29 19:51:14 +0100EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr)
2024-02-29 19:58:06 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-02-29 19:59:03 +0100Guest32(~Guest69@117.250.240.128)
2024-02-29 19:59:34 +0100Guest32(~Guest69@117.250.240.128) (Client Quit)
2024-02-29 19:59:43 +0100destituion(~destituio@2a02:2121:34a:61a6:24fe:c9d8:d8a6:b37) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-02-29 20:00:46 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-197-097.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-02-29 20:00:47 +0100destituion(~destituio@2001:4644:c37:0:57f:87b2:efe8:e836)
2024-02-29 20:01:03 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-02-29 20:01:04 +0100misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146)
2024-02-29 20:07:22 +0100average(uid473595@user/average) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2024-02-29 20:07:23 +0100dcoutts(~duncan@cpc69402-oxfd27-2-0-cust903.4-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-02-29 20:12:07 +0100chiselfuse(~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-29 20:12:45 +0100chiselfuse(~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse)
2024-02-29 20:13:48 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-02-29 20:20:35 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-02-29 20:25:17 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-02-29 20:32:27 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
2024-02-29 20:37:05 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-02-29 20:39:51 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-02-29 20:45:36 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon)
2024-02-29 20:46:23 +0100dcoutts(~duncan@cpc69402-oxfd27-2-0-cust903.4-3.cable.virginm.net)
2024-02-29 20:47:38 +0100phma(~phma@host-67-44-208-71.hnremote.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-02-29 20:48:04 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-02-29 20:51:59 +0100euphores(~SASL_euph@user/euphores)
2024-02-29 20:52:05 +0100phma(~phma@2001:5b0:2144:73c8:8f15:972f:3a23:f3e4)
2024-02-29 20:55:23 +0100takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-29 21:02:42 +0100destituion(~destituio@2001:4644:c37:0:57f:87b2:efe8:e836) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-02-29 21:03:25 +0100dcoutts(~duncan@cpc69402-oxfd27-2-0-cust903.4-3.cable.virginm.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-29 21:03:48 +0100dcoutts(~duncan@cpc69402-oxfd27-2-0-cust903.4-3.cable.virginm.net)
2024-02-29 21:04:58 +0100destituion(~destituio@2a02:2121:34a:61a6:24fe:c9d8:d8a6:b37)
2024-02-29 21:05:45 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-02-29 21:14:33 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-02-29 21:18:19 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-02-29 21:19:55 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon)
2024-02-29 21:20:42 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-02-29 21:28:37 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-02-29 21:30:56 +0100wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2024-02-29 21:32:37 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-02-29 21:34:26 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-02-29 21:41:53 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net)
2024-02-29 21:41:58 +0100AlexNoo_AlexNoo
2024-02-29 21:45:13 +0100spacenautx(~spacenaut@user/spacenautx) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-02-29 21:47:22 +0100spacenautx(~spacenaut@user/spacenautx)
2024-02-29 21:47:56 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-02-29 21:50:22 +0100dsrt^(~cd@c-98-242-74-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
2024-02-29 21:50:46 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-02-29 21:52:01 +0100spacenautx(~spacenaut@user/spacenautx) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-02-29 21:53:41 +0100spacenautx(~spacenaut@user/spacenautx)
2024-02-29 21:55:04 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-02-29 21:59:54 +0100ft(~ft@p508db2e6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2024-02-29 22:04:27 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-02-29 22:05:29 +0100agander_m(agander_m@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/aganderm/x-34304805) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-02-29 22:06:27 +0100agander_m(agander_m@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/aganderm/x-34304805)
2024-02-29 22:15:00 +0100misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-02-29 22:18:19 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-02-29 22:20:52 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-02-29 22:21:09 +0100spacenautx(~spacenaut@user/spacenautx) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-02-29 22:21:36 +0100_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-29 22:22:52 +0100spacenautx(~spacenaut@user/spacenautx)
2024-02-29 22:26:23 +0100sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
2024-02-29 22:27:31 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-02-29 22:28:14 +0100haskellbridge(~haskellbr@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-02-29 22:33:36 +0100haskellbridge(~haskellbr@069-135-003-034.biz.spectrum.com)
2024-02-29 22:33:36 +0100ChanServ+v haskellbridge
2024-02-29 22:37:17 +0100spacenautx(~spacenaut@user/spacenautx) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-02-29 22:39:10 +0100spacenautx(~spacenaut@user/spacenautx)
2024-02-29 22:40:29 +0100agander_m(agander_m@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/aganderm/x-34304805) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-29 22:50:49 +0100spacenautx(~spacenaut@user/spacenautx) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-02-29 22:50:57 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-02-29 22:52:20 +0100spacenautx(~spacenaut@user/spacenautx)
2024-02-29 22:53:28 +0100zetef(~quassel@95.77.17.251)
2024-02-29 22:57:22 +0100coot(~coot@89-69-206-216.dynamic.chello.pl) (Good Bye)
2024-02-29 22:58:17 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-02-29 22:58:57 +0100zetef(~quassel@95.77.17.251) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-02-29 22:59:08 +0100zetef(~quassel@5.2.182.98)
2024-02-29 23:02:37 +0100target_i(~target_i@217.175.14.39) (Quit: leaving)
2024-02-29 23:03:57 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-02-29 23:06:15 +0100misterfish(~misterfis@84.53.85.146)
2024-02-29 23:07:30 +0100wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-02-29 23:08:59 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2024-02-29 23:10:32 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-02-29 23:13:52 +0100spacenautx(~spacenaut@user/spacenautx) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-02-29 23:14:56 +0100xtabentun(uid491929@id-491929.tinside.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2024-02-29 23:15:39 +0100spacenautx(~spacenaut@user/spacenautx)
2024-02-29 23:20:35 +0100ames(~amelia@offtopia/offtopian/amelia) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-02-29 23:21:02 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-02-29 23:23:08 +0100spacenautx(~spacenaut@user/spacenautx) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-02-29 23:23:27 +0100ames(~amelia@offtopia/offtopian/amelia)
2024-02-29 23:28:00 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-02-29 23:28:03 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-02-29 23:38:03 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
2024-02-29 23:42:52 +0100michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.215) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-02-29 23:46:29 +0100zetef(~quassel@5.2.182.98) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2024-02-29 23:47:16 +0100zetef(~quassel@95.77.17.251)
2024-02-29 23:51:07 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-02-29 23:52:08 +0100zetef(~quassel@95.77.17.251) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-29 23:55:29 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-02-29 23:56:08 +0100gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-02-29 23:57:17 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)