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2024-02-02 02:03:51 +0100 <johnw> it sounds like the forall k was over the function, not the argument
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2024-02-02 09:41:23 +0100 <cheater> is there a way in the runtime to say "give me a list of all strings you know of"?
2024-02-02 09:41:34 +0100 <cheater> or "all bytestring", "all floats" etc
2024-02-02 09:44:55 +0100 <c_wraith> it really doesn't keep type information around for ordinary data types.
2024-02-02 09:45:36 +0100 <cheater> hmm right that's true, what about "give me all things that have the shape of a bytestring and cast them to bytestrings"?
2024-02-02 09:46:40 +0100 <c_wraith> you might be able to find all the ByteArray# values, and guess which of them correspond to bytestrings.
2024-02-02 09:46:50 +0100 <c_wraith> I don't remember if those are tracked specially.
2024-02-02 09:47:13 +0100 <cheater> oh, i'd probably be fine just getting *all* of them and just interpreting them as bytestrings
2024-02-02 09:47:35 +0100 <cheater> same with texts or strings
2024-02-02 09:47:54 +0100 <cheater> how would i go about "tell me all ByteArray# values"?
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2024-02-02 09:52:00 +0100 <kuribas> cheater: you mean, in a module? There could be some template haskell function to do that. But then the question is why?
2024-02-02 09:52:26 +0100 <kuribas> sounds rather XY problem-ish.
2024-02-02 09:53:30 +0100 <cheater> no, i mean in the runtime.
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2024-02-02 09:57:02 +0100 <cheater> as in, what's in memory, right now, while the program is running.
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2024-02-02 10:23:16 +0100 <tomsmeding> shot in the dark, but: ghc-debug?
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2024-02-02 10:45:36 +0100 <yotta> is it possible to pin unpinned bytearray ?
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2024-02-02 11:14:23 +0100 <lyxia> this comment in bytestring suggests that there are different representations for "shared" and "unshared" bytestrings. Does anyone have a clue what this is talking about? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.12.0.2/docs/Data-ByteString-Short.html#g:2
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2024-02-02 11:17:00 +0100 <lyxia> afaik ByteString is a ForeignPtr and a length, and I don't see what could be "shared" about that
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2024-02-02 11:17:35 +0100mima(~mmh@176.2.142.173)
2024-02-02 11:19:26 +0100 <danse-nr3> hmm... this https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-plain-0.1.0.2/docs/Data-ByteString-Plain.html is also referencing "shared" ByteString
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2024-02-02 11:20:55 +0100 <danse-nr3> maybe the fromStrict doc gives some clues? "If possible, the internally used MutableByteArray# is shared with the original ByteString in which case the conversion is cheap."
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2024-02-02 11:47:47 +0100 <tomsmeding> lyxia: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.10.4.0/docs/src/Data-ByteString-Internal.html#Byt…
2024-02-02 11:47:51 +0100 <tomsmeding> note the age of 0.10.4.0
2024-02-02 11:47:57 +0100 <tomsmeding> that's the first version that had Data.ByteString.Short
2024-02-02 11:48:12 +0100 <tomsmeding> back then, strict ByteString was ForeignPtr + offset + length
2024-02-02 11:48:20 +0100 <tomsmeding> I suspect the comment you're talking about is outdated :p
2024-02-02 11:49:16 +0100 <danse-nr3> maybe send an issue about that then lyxia, otherwise the next one stumbling upon that will be equally puzzled
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2024-02-02 13:19:00 +0100danse-nr3(~danse@151.57.133.204)
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2024-02-02 13:30:10 +0100 <carbolymer> cabal haddock --haddock-hoogle should generate hoogle database right? I cna't find any '*.hoo' files after that command
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2024-02-02 14:41:08 +0100 <lyxia> tomsmeding: the difference to now is just the lack of an offset though, so I don't see how that comment would apply back then and not now
2024-02-02 14:41:58 +0100igemnace(~ian@user/igemnace)
2024-02-02 14:42:10 +0100 <lyxia> danse-nr3: I did ask about it, bodigrim has no idea either. I'm asking because I want to fix the comment :)
2024-02-02 14:42:12 +0100 <tomsmeding> lyxia: perhaps when there was an offset, two bytestrings could share the same ForeignPtr, thus taking up less memory than having two separate ForeignPtrs
2024-02-02 14:42:39 +0100 <lyxia> ah, that could be it
2024-02-02 14:42:50 +0100 <tomsmeding> I haven't done the computations, so please check all that I say
2024-02-02 14:43:18 +0100csn(~csn@115.96.219.126) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-02-02 14:43:20 +0100 <lyxia> that would be the 4 words of the extra ByteString constructor indeed
2024-02-02 14:44:05 +0100 <tomsmeding> they would be separate ByteString constructors anyway, right?
2024-02-02 14:44:12 +0100 <tomsmeding> just shared or unshared ForeignPtrs
2024-02-02 14:44:17 +0100 <lyxia> oh yeah
2024-02-02 14:44:25 +0100 <tomsmeding> dunno how large a ForeignPtr is
2024-02-02 14:48:36 +0100 <probie> It probably depends on how many finalizers are attached to it (unless you want to count those separately)
2024-02-02 14:49:16 +0100 <tomsmeding> presumably the assumption is that it's allocated by the bytestring library, meaning that there's probably exactly one finaliser attached
2024-02-02 14:59:45 +0100 <probie> (I haven't actually looked at what bytestring does, so take this with a grain of salt) Probably 0 finalizers, and you'll end up with `ForeignPtr someUnboxedAddress (PlainPtr someMutableByteArrayAtTheSameAddress)`
2024-02-02 15:00:49 +0100Nixkernal(~Nixkernal@115.16.194.178.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch)
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2024-02-02 15:29:26 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-02-02 15:32:02 +0100[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2024-02-02 15:33:46 +0100 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> what does `listThreads` from `GHC.Conc` actually list?
2024-02-02 15:33:53 +0100 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> because in ghci the output seems to grow continously
2024-02-02 15:36:11 +0100alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3140-a426-1123-58b1-94b3-e4fc.rev.sfr.net)
2024-02-02 15:37:27 +0100 <danse-nr3> not sure i do not seem to have that in my machine
2024-02-02 15:39:16 +0100billchenchina(~billchenc@103.152.35.21)
2024-02-02 15:40:06 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-02-02 15:40:28 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@176.6.190.3)
2024-02-02 15:46:12 +0100 <int-e> It looks like if you `listThreads` repeatedly, the result (`it`) will keep the threads alive. With `ghci -fno-it` the list grows a bit until GC kicks in and collects inactive threads with no reference to them (thread ids act as references, I think)
2024-02-02 15:47:30 +0100 <int-e> "inactive" - finished, that is.
2024-02-02 15:48:44 +0100 <danse-nr3> @hoogle (Foldable f, Semigroup s) => f (s a) -> f a
2024-02-02 15:48:44 +0100 <lambdabot> No results found
2024-02-02 15:49:07 +0100 <Hecate> y'all
2024-02-02 15:49:14 +0100 <Hecate> read this: https://hexdocs.pm/elixir/compatibility-and-deprecations.html#deprecations
2024-02-02 15:49:28 +0100 <Hecate> amazing, a language whose culture include a clear and actionable deprecation policy
2024-02-02 15:49:42 +0100 <Hecate> predictible ecosystem changes!
2024-02-02 15:49:56 +0100billchenchina(~billchenc@103.152.35.21) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-02 15:51:03 +0100 <int-e> Hecate: Predictable, hmm. So when will they make a 2.0 or 2.1 release? :-P
2024-02-02 15:51:43 +0100 <Hecate> int-e: when they break shit up in a major way
2024-02-02 15:51:56 +0100 <int-e> (And which deprecated features will they keep when that happens? :-P)
2024-02-02 15:52:13 +0100 <Hecate> int-e: https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/milestone/19
2024-02-02 15:52:39 +0100 <int-e> "No due date"
2024-02-02 15:53:43 +0100 <Hecate> int-e: yes but look at the items
2024-02-02 15:54:01 +0100Achylles(~Achylles_@45.182.57.38) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-02 15:54:05 +0100 <Hecate> in truth there are some changes that have been deemed to be disturbing enough that this would warrant an inclusion in a v2
2024-02-02 15:54:21 +0100Achylles(~Achylles_@45.182.57.38)
2024-02-02 15:54:28 +0100mei(~mei@user/mei)
2024-02-02 15:56:47 +0100waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Quit: updating stuff)
2024-02-02 15:57:16 +0100 <int-e> Anyway. It's a policy, but I'm wondering how close it is to "we'll depreceate features but never remove them".
2024-02-02 15:58:16 +0100 <int-e> And the answer to that seems to be... you won't know until it happens. You'll have some warning if you actually follow Elixir's development.
2024-02-02 15:59:12 +0100 <Hecate> warnings are good
2024-02-02 16:03:37 +0100CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:2db:7f00:e6b9:7aff:fe80:3d03) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2024-02-02 16:09:48 +0100 <tomsmeding> danse-nr3: what would that return if the foldable is empty
2024-02-02 16:10:38 +0100 <danse-nr3> an empty foldable?
2024-02-02 16:11:56 +0100 <danse-nr3> real problem seemed to be how to turn a semigroup to a. I think i was looking for Foldable1
2024-02-02 16:17:27 +0100 <ski> @kind Semigroup -- danse-nr3
2024-02-02 16:17:29 +0100 <lambdabot> * -> Constraint
2024-02-02 16:17:50 +0100 <danse-nr3> so?
2024-02-02 16:18:11 +0100 <ski> `s a' makes no sense, if `Semigroup s'
2024-02-02 16:18:37 +0100 <danse-nr3> ^^;
2024-02-02 16:19:51 +0100 <ski> i guess, by `Foldable1', you mean one working on non-empty collections, rather than one working on some kind of higher-order collection (cf. `Eq1')
2024-02-02 16:21:18 +0100 <danse-nr3> yes i found it in semigroupoids. So my Semigroup a was a Foldable1 actually
2024-02-02 16:21:30 +0100 <danse-nr3> Foldable1 a
2024-02-02 16:25:55 +0100 <danse-nr3> thanks ski had not noticed that
2024-02-02 16:28:04 +0100 <ncf> so you have a Foldable of Foldable1 of as, and you want a Foldable of as?
2024-02-02 16:28:50 +0100 <danse-nr3> yep, did that with a maybe and fold1
2024-02-02 16:29:56 +0100Achylles(~Achylles_@45.182.57.38) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-02-02 16:30:00 +0100 <danse-nr3> but actually i needed a [e] coming from [NonEmpty e] so solved with toList
2024-02-02 16:31:26 +0100mobivme(~mobivme@130.105.162.162)
2024-02-02 16:32:14 +0100Achylles(~Achylles_@45.182.57.38)
2024-02-02 16:36:48 +0100 <ski> danse-nr3 : yea .. which makes me wonder what you actually intended, in place of that
2024-02-02 16:37:50 +0100 <danse-nr3> something like
2024-02-02 16:37:54 +0100 <danse-nr3> @hoogle (Foldable f, Foldable1 s) => f (s a) -> f a
2024-02-02 16:37:55 +0100 <lambdabot> No results found
2024-02-02 16:38:21 +0100 <danse-nr3> but now that i solved the concrete problem i have less steam to think that through in class terms
2024-02-02 16:39:48 +0100Achylles(~Achylles_@45.182.57.38) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-02-02 16:40:27 +0100 <tomsmeding> I don't think you can have that signature in general
2024-02-02 16:40:57 +0100 <tomsmeding> no reason for f to allow the full set of results as elements
2024-02-02 16:41:08 +0100 <tomsmeding> e.g. a vector of length 5 is also Foldable
2024-02-02 16:41:41 +0100 <tomsmeding> in this case you could `foldMap toList` or `toList . fold`
2024-02-02 16:42:37 +0100 <danse-nr3> i don't follow you, i am afraid
2024-02-02 16:43:30 +0100ft(~ft@p508dbdf9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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2024-02-02 16:49:38 +0100mobivme(~mobivme@130.105.162.162)
2024-02-02 16:51:12 +0100 <ski> > let fragments :: MonadPlus m => [a] -> m [NonEmptyList a]; fragments [ ] = return []; fragments (x:xs) = do yss <- fragments xs; return (NonEmpty [x] : yss) `mplus` case yss of NonEmpty ys:yss -> return (NonEmpty (x:ys):yss); [] -> mzero in (map . map) getNonEmpty (fragments "abcd") :: [[String]]
2024-02-02 16:51:14 +0100 <lambdabot> [["a","b","c","d"],["ab","c","d"],["a","bc","d"],["abc","d"],["a","b","cd"],...
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2024-02-02 22:15:36 +0100 <tomsmeding> in what way is 'x `seq` return () :: IO ()' different from 'evaluate x >> return ()'?
2024-02-02 22:16:33 +0100 <tomsmeding> I have often blissfully used the former, but now my benchmark consistently measured at ~0 seconds despite it actually taking a long time; using the latter ('evaluate') fixed it
2024-02-02 22:16:53 +0100 <tomsmeding> is there a good explanation for this?
2024-02-02 22:17:02 +0100 <beogrif> would an exception thrown in the seq one bubble up through the IO monad like evaluate would?
2024-02-02 22:17:30 +0100 <tomsmeding> this code doesn't throw exceptions (at least not in my experiments); I'm not terribly interested in the behaviour around exceptions
2024-02-02 22:17:32 +0100 <tomsmeding> but good point
2024-02-02 22:17:56 +0100 <beogrif> yeah, I do wonder if perhaps it generates different exception handling code though in either case
2024-02-02 22:18:01 +0100 <monochrom> The doc shows an example. But it is a pretty rare case.
2024-02-02 22:18:48 +0100 <tomsmeding> monochrom: note that I'm not doing 'return (x `seq` ())', I'm doing 'x `seq` return ()'
2024-02-02 22:18:55 +0100 <tomsmeding> and also that the code in question doesn't throw exceptions
2024-02-02 22:19:17 +0100 <tomsmeding> (if you were referring to the haddocks of 'evaluate')
2024-02-02 22:19:49 +0100trev(~trev@user/trev) (Quit: trev)
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2024-02-02 22:21:06 +0100 <monochrom> Then there is a theoretical difference that I don't know how often it shows up in practice. (I don't usually scaremonger about this.) Basically similar to seq vs pseq. seq does not guarantee "right now", only "soon enough". evaluate guarantees right now.
2024-02-02 22:21:27 +0100stef204(~stef204@user/stef204)
2024-02-02 22:22:18 +0100 <monochrom> Or rather, seq just marks "strict in this" and let the optimizer make its choice.
2024-02-02 22:22:34 +0100 <tomsmeding> right
2024-02-02 22:22:35 +0100mei(~mei@user/mei)
2024-02-02 22:22:47 +0100 <tomsmeding> naive intuitive semantics of seq strike again
2024-02-02 22:23:23 +0100 <monochrom> Of course 99% of the time it means "evaluate now" anyway so I don't like to emphasize the difference.
2024-02-02 22:23:35 +0100 <tomsmeding> maybe this is a case where it matters!
2024-02-02 22:24:20 +0100 <tomsmeding> I see that 'evaluate' doesn't use 'seq', it uses 'seq#', whatever that may do
2024-02-02 22:24:33 +0100 <tomsmeding> ah, it's the fseq of https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/2273 except in IO
2024-02-02 22:24:43 +0100 <tomsmeding> which is also suitable because the state monad has a continuation in there
2024-02-02 22:24:57 +0100 <tomsmeding> okay I officially hate seq now and will cease using it
2024-02-02 22:25:10 +0100 <tomsmeding> (this includes deepseq, which this question was really about)
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2024-02-02 22:26:09 +0100 <tomsmeding> seq is a design mistake
2024-02-02 22:26:22 +0100 <monochrom> I am a nice and accomodating person towards computers. If I just mean "it is more efficient if you evaluate this earlier, but this is just a hint", I use seq, I don't need the strong guarantee of evaluate or pseq.
2024-02-02 22:26:50 +0100 <tomsmeding> right
2024-02-02 22:26:59 +0100 <tomsmeding> well at the very least it has a bad name, then
2024-02-02 22:26:59 +0100 <monochrom> If I do need the strong guarantee of evaluate (as in "I need the precise exception"), then I use evaluate.
2024-02-02 22:27:21 +0100 <tomsmeding> or as in "I need my benchmark framework to see this work between its timing points"
2024-02-02 22:27:43 +0100 <monochrom> I think it was a good name but bad revisionist semantics.
2024-02-02 22:28:30 +0100 <monochrom> It's called "seq" because John Hughes invented it to really mean "seq" because only when you kill lazy evaluation do you get the memory-saving benefit of foldl'
2024-02-02 22:29:09 +0100 <monochrom> But things went south when people realized that the Haskell Report cannot even talk about evaluation orders.
2024-02-02 22:30:07 +0100 <monochrom> OTOH I'm OK with "don't be a control freak backseat driver to the optimizer; give strictness hints and let the optimizer consider all factors".
2024-02-02 22:30:34 +0100pruiz(~user@user/pruiz) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-02-02 22:31:22 +0100 <monochrom> Bird called it "strict" in his book. Maybe that's a good name under the revisionist history.
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2024-02-02 22:32:07 +0100 <monochrom> But it is a bad name in the context of that chapter because it uses evaluation orders not denotational semantics.
2024-02-02 22:32:28 +0100 <monochrom> (It explains why foldl' saves memory. Denotational semantic cannot tell you that.)
2024-02-02 22:33:47 +0100 <tomsmeding> "strict" feels like a more appropriate name, indeed
2024-02-02 22:34:02 +0100 <tomsmeding> and apparently (?) ghc treats it like "strict", not like "seq"
2024-02-02 22:34:30 +0100 <monochrom> "strict" would be a good name in the Haskell Report and when we say "seq is a strictness hint".
2024-02-02 22:34:53 +0100 <monochrom> But I still don't like "strict vs lazy". Level mismatch.
2024-02-02 22:35:32 +0100 <johnw> so true monochrom
2024-02-02 22:35:56 +0100 <monochrom> But since even Bird wrote like that, it's a lost cause. People worship opinion leaders.
2024-02-02 22:36:02 +0100 <monochrom> To hell with opinion leaders.
2024-02-02 22:37:18 +0100pruiz(~user@user/pruiz)
2024-02-02 22:38:05 +0100 <tomsmeding> monochrom: because it's strict vs non-strict on the semantics level, and lazy is an evaluation strategy?
2024-02-02 22:38:16 +0100 <johnw> indeed
2024-02-02 22:38:19 +0100 <monochrom> Right.
2024-02-02 22:38:21 +0100 <johnw> strict has a mathematical definition
2024-02-02 22:38:31 +0100 <johnw> lazy is one way of doing it
2024-02-02 22:38:50 +0100pruiz(~user@user/pruiz) (Client Quit)
2024-02-02 22:39:41 +0100 <johnw> reminds me of a presentation I was watching last week about "functions", where I quickly realized he wasn't really talking about functions, but the code sequences that processors execute -- even though it was a Haskell talk!
2024-02-02 22:40:00 +0100 <johnw> levels, people
2024-02-02 22:40:18 +0100 <tomsmeding> that just sounds like a terminology clash
2024-02-02 22:42:07 +0100 <tomsmeding> as in, when talking about assembly, one also often talks about "functions", but those are indeed of course different things from "functions" in the haskell language
2024-02-02 22:42:31 +0100 <johnw> I was just expecting him to say things about mathematical functions
2024-02-02 22:44:22 +0100 <monochrom> It's a Haskell talk so one should not say "function" for machine code!
2024-02-02 22:45:01 +0100 <tomsmeding> can they also not use "label" for labels in assembly code, because we have -XOverloadedLabels?
2024-02-02 22:45:16 +0100 <johnw> let me restate: the title of the talk led me to believe it was about mathematical functions, but when I started listening I realized it was about operational functions. Not saying you shouldn't use the term for whatever audience you have.
2024-02-02 22:45:28 +0100 <monochrom> I have -XNoOverloadedLabels so I'm fine. :)
2024-02-02 22:45:40 +0100 <tomsmeding> right, then the title may have mismatched the audience :)
2024-02-02 22:45:59 +0100 <geekosaur> -XMassivelyOverloadedLabels
2024-02-02 22:45:59 +0100 <monochrom> Oh wait. -XOverloadedLabels is license to overload the word "labels", no? >:)
2024-02-02 22:46:18 +0100tomsmedingsighs
2024-02-02 22:53:25 +0100 <johnw> hahaha
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2024-02-02 23:07:55 +0100ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-02-02 23:08:03 +0100tri(~tri@24.188.46.116)
2024-02-02 23:08:37 +0100coot(~coot@89-69-206-216.dynamic.chello.pl) (Quit: coot)
2024-02-02 23:08:43 +0100ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2024-02-02 23:11:14 +0100emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux)
2024-02-02 23:12:18 +0100ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73d16.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-02-02 23:13:32 +0100Joao003(~Joao003@190.108.108.40) (Quit: Bye!)
2024-02-02 23:19:55 +0100mud(~mud@user/kadoban)
2024-02-02 23:24:13 +0100 <jackdk> @remember monochrom To hell with opinion leaders.
2024-02-02 23:24:14 +0100 <lambdabot> It is forever etched in my memory.
2024-02-02 23:28:17 +0100lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com)
2024-02-02 23:28:26 +0100jargon(~jargon@105.sub-174-205-230.myvzw.com)
2024-02-02 23:32:00 +0100bilegeek(~bilegeek@2600:1008:b014:2394:f1:4073:7d5:b5fa)
2024-02-02 23:37:30 +0100michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.222) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-02-02 23:49:49 +0100Square(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-02-02 23:57:25 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)