2024/01/30

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2024-01-30 00:06:57 +0100 <ski> dfg : "6.2.7. Generalised (SQL-like) List Comprehensions" <https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/generalised_list_comprehensions.html>
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2024-01-30 04:15:33 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 04:23:11 +0100 <tt1231> For setting up Haskell on Arch Linux, using Code OSS, is using ghcup, and not pacman packages, still the best way to go? I started setting everything up today and I am going to see if I can get everything working tomorrow.
2024-01-30 04:23:46 +0100 <geekosaur> pacman still gets you a mostly broken installation
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2024-01-30 04:25:40 +0100 <geekosaur> if you religiously use `-dynamic` then you can get it to work, but you have to remember to rebuild everything when OS packages get updated
2024-01-30 04:26:17 +0100 <geekosaur> so yes, it's still recommended to use ghcup
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2024-01-30 12:52:53 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 12:53:06 +0100lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2024-01-30 12:57:57 +0100AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.160.228) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-01-30 12:59:05 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-01-30 12:59:27 +0100 <haskellbridge> 06<e​ldritchcookie> hello do we have any 3d game made in haskell?
2024-01-30 12:59:46 +0100 <haskellbridge> 06<e​ldritchcookie> wow today i am eating all the letters
2024-01-30 12:59:51 +0100 <haskellbridge> 06<e​ldritchcookie> *games
2024-01-30 13:02:20 +0100AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.160.228)
2024-01-30 13:05:19 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 13:10:15 +0100szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2024-01-30 13:10:37 +0100danse-nr3(~danse@151.47.84.17) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-01-30 13:14:27 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-01-30 13:15:19 +0100 <cheater> not that i know of
2024-01-30 13:15:32 +0100 <cheater> you're probably best off trying to integrate with godot
2024-01-30 13:19:42 +0100tinjamin(~tinjamin@banshee.h4x0r.space) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2024-01-30 13:20:37 +0100kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-01-30 13:21:11 +0100tinjamin(~tinjamin@banshee.h4x0r.space)
2024-01-30 13:25:47 +0100kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be)
2024-01-30 13:37:48 +0100rosco(~rosco@175.136.156.77) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2024-01-30 13:41:36 +0100 <jackdk> eldritchcookie: https://wiki.haskell.org/Frag
2024-01-30 13:43:52 +0100 <haskellbridge> 06<e​ldritchcookie> yeah it uses opengl
2024-01-30 13:44:04 +0100 <haskellbridge> 06<e​ldritchcookie> so it certainly is possible
2024-01-30 13:44:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> 06<e​ldritchcookie> but i quite prefer cheater's idea
2024-01-30 13:44:43 +0100 <haskellbridge> 06<e​ldritchcookie> godot isn't going away and neither will its c api
2024-01-30 13:44:57 +0100 <haskellbridge> 06<e​ldritchcookie> though i guess neither will opengl
2024-01-30 13:45:41 +0100qqq(~qqq@92.43.167.61)
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2024-01-30 13:54:54 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
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2024-01-30 14:01:52 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-184-183.176.6.pool.telefonica.de)
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2024-01-30 14:05:45 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-01-30 14:05:46 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 14:07:45 +0100danse-nr3(~danse@151.47.24.5)
2024-01-30 14:10:03 +0100sord937_(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937)
2024-01-30 14:10:28 +0100sord937_(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-01-30 14:10:42 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-01-30 14:11:01 +0100sord937_(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937)
2024-01-30 14:11:35 +0100sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-01-30 14:12:14 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 14:15:31 +0100ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73d16.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-01-30 14:16:47 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-01-30 14:17:18 +0100sord937_(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-01-30 14:17:21 +0100petrichor(~znc-user@user/petrichor) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-01-30 14:17:41 +0100sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937)
2024-01-30 14:18:17 +0100 <kaol> I haven't tried to do anything with it myself but there's https://github.com/typedbyte/hagato at least.
2024-01-30 14:18:20 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
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2024-01-30 14:44:57 +0100AkechiShiro(~licht@user/akechishiro)
2024-01-30 14:46:16 +0100danse-nr3(~danse@151.47.24.5) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2024-01-30 14:47:46 +0100troydm(~troydm@user/troydm) (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset)
2024-01-30 14:47:57 +0100igemnace(~ian@user/igemnace) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-01-30 14:48:33 +0100ubert(~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf1f173c03fd09da48ef3e71.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2024-01-30 14:53:34 +0100chaitlatte0(ea29c0bb16@user/chaitlatte0)
2024-01-30 14:54:26 +0100yushyin(PYLyYfdKtk@mail.karif.server-speed.net)
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2024-01-30 15:16:46 +0100szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2024-01-30 15:22:50 +0100thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.180.65.186)
2024-01-30 15:24:06 +0100troydm(~troydm@user/troydm)
2024-01-30 15:30:47 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-01-30 15:31:19 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-184-183.176.6.pool.telefonica.de)
2024-01-30 15:31:49 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-184-183.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-01-30 15:32:06 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-01-30 15:39:25 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-01-30 15:39:40 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-184-183.176.6.pool.telefonica.de)
2024-01-30 15:42:23 +0100 <bwe> what's Haskell's equivalent to Rust's "function xyz not called; consider to remove"?
2024-01-30 15:43:30 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-01-30 15:43:50 +0100 <int-e> ghc has a -fwarn-unused-binds (also part of -Wall, I think?)
2024-01-30 15:47:14 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2024-01-30 15:47:24 +0100danse-nr3(~danse@151.47.24.5)
2024-01-30 15:47:53 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-01-30 15:53:56 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) (Quit: WeeChat 4.1.1)
2024-01-30 15:58:34 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-01-30 16:06:45 +0100EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr)
2024-01-30 16:10:30 +0100defanor(~defanor@tart.uberspace.net) (Changing host)
2024-01-30 16:10:30 +0100defanor(~defanor@user/defanor)
2024-01-30 16:12:42 +0100iakov(~quassel@2a02:8106:244:b000:c4b2:cd08:c7cf:1672)
2024-01-30 16:18:00 +0100szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2024-01-30 16:24:32 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-184-183.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-01-30 16:24:51 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-01-30 16:26:32 +0100 <bwe> int-e: I get only -Wunused-local-binds
2024-01-30 16:28:52 +0100yoneda(~mike@193.206.102.122) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2024-01-30 17:38:25 +0100yahb2(~yahb2@static.56.27.47.78.clients.your-server.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2024-01-30 17:38:55 +0100ChanServ+v yahb2
2024-01-30 17:39:41 +0100ircbrowse_tom(~ircbrowse@2a01:4f8:1c1c:9319::1)
2024-01-30 17:39:47 +0100Server+Cnt
2024-01-30 17:41:49 +0100tomsmeding(~tomsmedin@2a01:4f8:c0c:5e5e::2) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
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2024-01-30 18:06:04 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-184-183.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2024-01-30 18:16:38 +0100monochrm(trebla@216.138.220.146)
2024-01-30 18:16:46 +0100monochrom(trebla@216.138.220.146) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-01-30 18:16:51 +0100monochrmmonochrom
2024-01-30 18:17:18 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 4.1.2)
2024-01-30 18:17:20 +0100RMSBach(~guygastin@137.184.131.156)
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2024-01-30 18:17:56 +0100Benzi-Junior(~BenziJuni@dsl-149-65-224.hive.is)
2024-01-30 18:20:48 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-01-30 18:21:21 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 18:21:46 +0100chele(~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-01-30 18:22:01 +0100APic(~apic@apic.name)
2024-01-30 18:22:42 +0100Hooloovoo(~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org)
2024-01-30 18:25:00 +0100pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2024-01-30 18:25:41 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2024-01-30 18:26:06 +0100defanor(~defanor@user/defanor) (Quit: .)
2024-01-30 18:26:53 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 18:27:43 +0100Vq(~vq@90-225-115-195-no122.tbcn.telia.com)
2024-01-30 18:29:24 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-01-30 18:30:57 +0100CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:286:4200:e6b9:7aff:fe80:3d03) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-01-30 18:32:53 +0100sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
2024-01-30 18:37:01 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-01-30 18:44:16 +0100 <bwe> how can I get those warnings fixed automatically that can be fixed automatically? language server? specific package/tool?
2024-01-30 18:44:19 +0100tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-01-30 18:46:11 +0100pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655)
2024-01-30 18:46:23 +0100xff0x_(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:81d9:6063:4185:a0e4) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-01-30 18:48:05 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2024-01-30 18:48:11 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@ai079181.d.east.v6connect.net)
2024-01-30 18:50:12 +0100econo_(uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com)
2024-01-30 18:57:01 +0100rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-01-30 18:59:31 +0100xff0x_(~xff0x@ai099196.d.east.v6connect.net)
2024-01-30 19:02:02 +0100SAJAT(~sajat@87-97-12-229.pool.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-01-30 19:02:58 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@ai079181.d.east.v6connect.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-01-30 19:03:47 +0100SAJAT(~sajat@84-236-3-92.pool.digikabel.hu)
2024-01-30 19:03:51 +0100tzh(~tzh@c-71-193-181-0.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2024-01-30 19:05:54 +0100rvalue(~rvalue@user/rvalue)
2024-01-30 19:07:31 +0100pretty_d1(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655)
2024-01-30 19:07:42 +0100pretty_d1(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) (Client Quit)
2024-01-30 19:08:36 +0100pretty_d1(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655)
2024-01-30 19:08:36 +0100pretty_d1(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) (Client Quit)
2024-01-30 19:09:05 +0100pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-01-30 19:13:04 +0100pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655)
2024-01-30 19:15:54 +0100causal(~eric@50.35.85.7)
2024-01-30 19:20:44 +0100bitmapper(uid464869@id-464869.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2024-01-30 19:26:52 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon)
2024-01-30 19:27:36 +0100danse-nr3(~danse@151.47.46.196)
2024-01-30 19:29:17 +0100zanp(~zanp@2a02:c7c:c9a0:9400:ed2a:2091:2c82:bfca)
2024-01-30 19:32:52 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-95.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2024-01-30 19:36:40 +0100thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.180.65.186) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-01-30 19:38:04 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-01-30 19:38:38 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-046-114-172-039.46.114.pool.telefonica.de)
2024-01-30 19:38:59 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-046-114-172-039.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-01-30 19:39:17 +0100euleritian(~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2024-01-30 19:40:05 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:6917:2efe:dcc7:7830) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-01-30 19:40:17 +0100Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon)
2024-01-30 19:48:52 +0100sgarcia(sgarcia@swarm.znchost.com) (Quit: Hosted by www.ZNCHost.com)
2024-01-30 19:49:28 +0100 <ski> bwe : hlint warnings ?
2024-01-30 19:51:54 +0100sgarcia(sgarcia@swarm.znchost.com)
2024-01-30 19:55:48 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 20:00:20 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-01-30 20:07:13 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 20:08:21 +0100ft(~ft@p508dbdf9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2024-01-30 20:10:51 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:6917:2efe:dcc7:7830)
2024-01-30 20:11:53 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-01-30 20:13:21 +0100 <bwe> ski: ghc and hlint warnings
2024-01-30 20:13:49 +0100 <bwe> it's a pity to not have that working out of the box.
2024-01-30 20:16:33 +0100zanp(~zanp@2a02:c7c:c9a0:9400:ed2a:2091:2c82:bfca) (Quit: Client closed)
2024-01-30 20:18:12 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 20:22:53 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-01-30 20:23:19 +0100 <monochrom> Everyone was waiting for everyone else to do it, so no one does it.
2024-01-30 20:24:10 +0100 <bwe> hell, there is half a dozen of auto-fixers. apply-refact for hlint, hlint-plugin recently. it's a fragmented mess.
2024-01-30 20:24:19 +0100 <EvanR> color output for ghci
2024-01-30 20:24:27 +0100 <EvanR> waiting patiently
2024-01-30 20:25:23 +0100 <bwe> I mean, what are the Rust people doing differently so they get the job done?
2024-01-30 20:25:57 +0100 <bwe> is it just we need "donate for idea XYZ" to get it implemented buttons?
2024-01-30 20:26:03 +0100 <EvanR> they have hype
2024-01-30 20:26:49 +0100 <bwe> does hype necessarily gets you the stuff done?
2024-01-30 20:27:06 +0100 <EvanR> hype leads to more people willing to make nice looking css
2024-01-30 20:27:15 +0100 <EvanR> and that leads to the dark side
2024-01-30 20:27:18 +0100 <monochrom> For a group of people who self-identify as believing in open-source, we are exceptional in exhibiting entitlement attitudes. That's the difference.
2024-01-30 20:27:36 +0100 <bwe> EvanR: pls elaborate on the dark side.
2024-01-30 20:27:47 +0100 <EvanR> a bad reference to star wars
2024-01-30 20:28:31 +0100 <bwe> monochrom: So, too many idealists, perfectionists among us leads to not getting anything done.
2024-01-30 20:28:31 +0100 <EvanR> all programming languages with hype come with exuberant community members skilled in the ways of persuasive CSS (not just ability to host pages)
2024-01-30 20:28:43 +0100 <EvanR> regardless of the merits of the language
2024-01-30 20:28:49 +0100 <monochrom> No, entitlement attitude is not perfectionism.
2024-01-30 20:28:56 +0100 <bwe> monochrom: what is it then?
2024-01-30 20:29:03 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 20:29:10 +0100 <monochrom> Other communities are like "we're missing X, how can I help?"
2024-01-30 20:29:11 +0100 <bwe> seriously, which auto-fixer can you recommend from your own experience?
2024-01-30 20:29:19 +0100 <EvanR> there's a correlation between massive community contributions and these fancy pages
2024-01-30 20:29:49 +0100 <bwe> monochrom: how are we?
2024-01-30 20:29:54 +0100 <monochrom> This community is like "how the hell are we missing X?! why doesn't someone else do it and gimme?! this is why haskell is not for prime time".
2024-01-30 20:30:26 +0100 <bwe> monochrom: so we are doomed - why are you still here?
2024-01-30 20:30:45 +0100 <monochrom> At least I did my part. I believed that we need a better tutorial on parametric polymorphism. So I wrote it.
2024-01-30 20:31:01 +0100 <bwe> monochrom: link?
2024-01-30 20:31:13 +0100 <monochrom> https://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/abs-type-param.html
2024-01-30 20:31:34 +0100 <monochrom> Why shouldn't I be still here?
2024-01-30 20:31:50 +0100 <monochrom> It is not like everyone else's entitlement attitude actually affects me.
2024-01-30 20:32:16 +0100 <ski> bwe : i don't think i'd want that, since hlint can be a bit opinionated, and also sometimes i want to contraindicate, for emphasis
2024-01-30 20:32:18 +0100 <monochrom> And it is not like I'm missing the next fad IDE feature either.
2024-01-30 20:32:19 +0100 <bwe> monochrom: what's the entitlement attitude? can you give me an example?
2024-01-30 20:32:34 +0100 <monochrom> You showed an example.
2024-01-30 20:33:17 +0100 <EvanR> is the next fad ide feature to enforce ormolu everywhere on everything
2024-01-30 20:33:29 +0100 <bwe> there is also formulu
2024-01-30 20:33:37 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-01-30 20:33:41 +0100ystael(~ystael@user/ystael) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-01-30 20:33:56 +0100trev(~trev@user/trev) (Quit: trev)
2024-01-30 20:34:03 +0100 <bwe> monochrom: you mean, complaining and asking for auto-fixer?
2024-01-30 20:35:08 +0100 <bwe> ski: but can we agree on removing unused imports is wanted in each case? ofc that's the ghc auto-fixer.
2024-01-30 20:35:25 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-01-30 20:36:13 +0100 <monochrom> I don't want that in most cases.
2024-01-30 20:36:31 +0100 <monochrom> Then again, I don't use hlint, I don't use -Wall, so I'm fine.
2024-01-30 20:36:38 +0100 <tomsmeding> no -Wall?
2024-01-30 20:36:49 +0100bweis shocked
2024-01-30 20:36:54 +0100 <tomsmeding> do you go warningless or do you have favourites that you turn on manually?
2024-01-30 20:36:58 +0100 <monochrom> I can be talked to using them at finalization time. But that's 1% of the time.
2024-01-30 20:37:11 +0100 <monochrom> s/talked to/talked into/
2024-01-30 20:38:22 +0100 <monochrom> My code has not been "industry" enough to benefit from warnings.
2024-01-30 20:38:52 +0100 <monochrom> But like I said, for "industry" code, I can be talked into -Wall -Werror at finalization.
2024-01-30 20:39:16 +0100 <monochrom> But also like I said, that means the last mile only.
2024-01-30 20:39:18 +0100 <tomsmeding> I have hate for -Werror, but turn on -Wall always
2024-01-30 20:39:25 +0100lockna(~lockna@2a01:4f8:10b:14f1::2) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2024-01-30 20:39:33 +0100 <tomsmeding> which means I don't _need_ -Werror, because I know when my code has warnings
2024-01-30 20:39:37 +0100 <monochrom> During intermediate drafting stage, the warnings are spurrious and distracting.
2024-01-30 20:39:38 +0100ski. o O ( "Min-Maxing Your Haskell Imports" in 2019-06-03 at <https://mostlyabsurd.github.io/posts/2019/06/03/minimal-imports-maximal-imports/>,"Min-Maxing Your Haskell Imports (examples)" in 2019-06-09 at <https://mostlyabsurd.github.io/posts/2019/06/09/minimal-imports-maximal-imports-examples/>, both by Robert Djubek )
2024-01-30 20:39:42 +0100lockna(~lockna@2a01:4f8:10b:14f1::2)
2024-01-30 20:39:45 +0100 <tomsmeding> interesting :)
2024-01-30 20:39:53 +0100 <tomsmeding> I mean, I'm not judging you, I'm assuming you can write good code
2024-01-30 20:40:33 +0100 <geekosaur> I'm wary of -Werror because it tends to mean "don't allow portable code"
2024-01-30 20:40:44 +0100 <EvanR> how so
2024-01-30 20:40:56 +0100 <geekosaur> well, portable across versions
2024-01-30 20:41:16 +0100 <EvanR> because warnings change
2024-01-30 20:41:16 +0100 <tomsmeding> doing -Werror at monochrom's "finalisation time" is fine if you have a development process that doesn't aim at avoiding warnings always
2024-01-30 20:41:27 +0100 <tomsmeding> but don't _release_ code with -Werror because it makes it absolute hell to build for others
2024-01-30 20:41:28 +0100 <monochrom> It is the same principle as how those popup confirmations "are you sure? [Y] [N]" backfired because if you spam it, people become oblivious, it's self-defeating.
2024-01-30 20:41:55 +0100 <geekosaur> because (a) a warning->error might not even exist in an older version (b) sometimes you need considerable histrionics to support multiple ghc versions without tripping warnings
2024-01-30 20:42:33 +0100 <geekosaur> so you find yourself locking out users on Debian or etc.
2024-01-30 20:42:44 +0100lockna(~lockna@2a01:4f8:10b:14f1::2) (Client Quit)
2024-01-30 20:42:46 +0100 <tomsmeding> maybe this is less of an issue with haskell because one can "just" open the cabal file and remove the -Werror flag if you get issues, but I once had to build some C++ code that used some custom build framework embedded in cmake (!) that re-downloaded source tarballs whenever hashes didn't match
2024-01-30 20:43:02 +0100 <monochrom> In the case of imports, very often I already write like "import Control.Monad(foldM)" in the first place.
2024-01-30 20:43:08 +0100 <tomsmeding> and the downloaded stuff used -Werror and it errored on a harmless (I surely hope) on my machine
2024-01-30 20:43:18 +0100lockna(~lockna@2a01:4f8:10b:14f1::2)
2024-01-30 20:43:22 +0100 <tomsmeding> removing the -Werror meant that the framework would just re-download the source and overwrite my changes
2024-01-30 20:43:24 +0100 <tomsmeding> it was hell
2024-01-30 20:43:53 +0100 <monochrom> Also when it comes to for example Data.Map, the good habit of "import Data.Map qualified ..." already sidesteps the issue altogether.
2024-01-30 20:44:22 +0100tomsmedingalways import Data.Map.Strict (Map) ; import qualified Data.Map.Strict as Map
2024-01-30 20:44:31 +0100 <monochrom> Yeah exactly.
2024-01-30 20:45:54 +0100 <tomsmeding> if I have to work on some code I haven't seen before, and it doesn't have warnings turned on (this holds for Haskell, C and C++, because there I know 1. that warnings are off by default and 2. how to spell the warning flag), the first thing I do is turn on -Wall
2024-01-30 20:46:02 +0100 <tomsmeding> if I then get spammed, I cry
2024-01-30 20:46:30 +0100 <tomsmeding> and I know I'm practically guaranteed to run into bugs that were perfectly indicated by a warning
2024-01-30 20:46:42 +0100bobby(~bob@2a01:799:15e7:a300:a9a7:9c25:284b:6aae)
2024-01-30 20:46:47 +0100yeahitsme(~bob@user/yeahitsme) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-01-30 20:46:50 +0100 <tomsmeding> the "practically" in that sentence allows for extraordinary coders
2024-01-30 20:47:51 +0100 <monochrom> If 80% of the warnings point you to bugs, that is worthwhile. But now it means it depends on the code quality in the first place.
2024-01-30 20:48:31 +0100 <tomsmeding> I mean, I'm fine if you go "I use -Wall -Wno-unused-imports" or something
2024-01-30 20:49:07 +0100 <tomsmeding> add your own favourite too-low-signal-to-noise warnings given your coding style
2024-01-30 20:49:10 +0100 <monochrom> I have thought about that. It would mean -Wall <20 -Wno-* here>
2024-01-30 20:49:22 +0100 <tomsmeding> -Wunused-imports is I guess the one with the lowest signal for me
2024-01-30 20:49:42 +0100 <tomsmeding> monochrom: what's the second on the list of -Wno-*? I promise I won't ask for the rest :)
2024-01-30 20:50:17 +0100 <monochrom> -Wno-no-binds. The one about "do { getLine }" for example.
2024-01-30 20:50:28 +0100 <monochrom> I HATE THAT
2024-01-30 20:50:39 +0100 <monochrom> It's hypocrisy.
2024-01-30 20:50:44 +0100tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-01-30 20:51:22 +0100 <monochrom> putStrLn "foo" :: IO () is not warned because of the ().
2024-01-30 20:52:04 +0100 <tomsmeding> monochrom: do you mean -Wunused-do-bind?
2024-01-30 20:52:04 +0100 <monochrom> I have "data U = U" and "myfunc :: IO U", and it is warned, even though it is isomorphic to (), even if it is visible in the module.
2024-01-30 20:52:38 +0100 <monochrom> Yeah I don't remember the correct name. (Well, I ended up not turning on any warning anyway, so I don't need to remember anything.)
2024-01-30 20:52:39 +0100 <EvanR> I should set import Data.Map.Strict (Map) ; import qualified Data.Map.Strict as Map as a macro already
2024-01-30 20:52:42 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon)
2024-01-30 20:53:09 +0100 <tomsmeding> monochrom: the one where you have a monadic action that returns non-() and you don't bind it to anything but it's not the last line in the block?
2024-01-30 20:53:10 +0100 <EvanR> control b for boilerplate
2024-01-30 20:53:12 +0100 <bwe> I mean, my intention is to have -Wall enabled and solve all issues that come up. So, there is only the option to do it by hand?
2024-01-30 20:53:18 +0100danse-nr3(~danse@151.47.46.196) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-01-30 20:53:21 +0100 <monochrom> Right.
2024-01-30 20:53:29 +0100 <tomsmeding> that's unused-do-bind indeed, and I agree it's low signal-to-noise, but I leave it on anyway
2024-01-30 20:53:34 +0100 <tomsmeding> I like being explicit about not using a result
2024-01-30 20:54:01 +0100 <dostoyevsky2> > def fib = [ 0 -> 1 | 1 -> 1 | N -> fib (N - 2) + fib (N - 1) ]
2024-01-30 20:54:03 +0100 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: error: parse error on input ‘=’
2024-01-30 20:54:07 +0100 <monochrom> I would like that too. But what about my U example?
2024-01-30 20:54:10 +0100 <dostoyevsky2> does Haskell have a syntax that similar to this?
2024-01-30 20:54:40 +0100bobby(~bob@2a01:799:15e7:a300:a9a7:9c25:284b:6aae) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-01-30 20:54:44 +0100 <tomsmeding> > fib = \case 0 -> 1 ; 1 -> 1 ; n -> fib (n - 2) + fib (n - 1)
2024-01-30 20:54:46 +0100 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: error: parse error on input ‘=’
2024-01-30 20:54:46 +0100 <geekosaur> MultiWayIf?
2024-01-30 20:54:49 +0100 <tomsmeding> % fib = \case 0 -> 1 ; 1 -> 1 ; n -> fib (n - 2) + fib (n - 1)
2024-01-30 20:54:49 +0100 <yahb2> <interactive>:5:8: error: Illegal lambda-case (use LambdaCase)
2024-01-30 20:54:54 +0100 <tomsmeding> % :set -XLambdaCase
2024-01-30 20:54:55 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2024-01-30 20:54:57 +0100 <tomsmeding> % fib = \case 0 -> 1 ; 1 -> 1 ; n -> fib (n - 2) + fib (n - 1)
2024-01-30 20:54:57 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2024-01-30 20:55:00 +0100 <tomsmeding> % fib 10
2024-01-30 20:55:00 +0100 <yahb2> 89
2024-01-30 20:55:03 +0100 <monochrom> I am OK with being forced to write "do { _ <- getLine; ...}". I am not OK with being forced to write "do { _ <- myfunc; ... }".
2024-01-30 20:55:03 +0100 <tomsmeding> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/lambda_case.html#extension-LambdaCase
2024-01-30 20:55:20 +0100 <tomsmeding> monochrom: I see! I guess I haven't run into that example :)
2024-01-30 20:55:28 +0100coot(~coot@89-69-206-216.dynamic.chello.pl) (Quit: coot)
2024-01-30 20:55:45 +0100 <geekosaur> hm, guess LambdaCase fits better, yeh
2024-01-30 20:55:48 +0100 <tomsmeding> though I understand, I would feel the same
2024-01-30 20:56:23 +0100 <monochrom> Sometimes my opinion is harder to understand because it is not of the simple form "do X", it is of the compound form "do X1 iff do X2".
2024-01-30 20:56:51 +0100yeahitsme(~bob@user/yeahitsme)
2024-01-30 20:56:55 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 20:57:12 +0100 <tomsmeding> that's just having a slightly less common coding pattern
2024-01-30 20:57:42 +0100 <monochrom> because every reason for or against X1 also applies to X2, and I am very annoyed when people make excuses to consider them different.
2024-01-30 20:58:45 +0100 <tomsmeding> is it that readers/listeners aren't willing to consider coding styles/situations they themselves don't use / haven't encountered?
2024-01-30 20:58:57 +0100 <tomsmeding> otherwise I'm not sure what your last message was saying
2024-01-30 20:59:29 +0100 <monochrom> Cognitive dissonance.
2024-01-30 20:59:49 +0100 <monochrom> () and U are isomorphic, but people refuse to honour that.
2024-01-30 20:59:59 +0100 <monochrom> So () gets and free pass and U doesn't.
2024-01-30 21:00:08 +0100 <monochrom> s/gets and/gets a/
2024-01-30 21:00:15 +0100 <tomsmeding> that should just take thinking for a moment about what -Wunused-do-bind is _for_
2024-01-30 21:00:27 +0100 <monochrom> Yes exactly.
2024-01-30 21:00:29 +0100 <tomsmeding> it's for not ignoring results that you may have forgotten to use
2024-01-30 21:00:41 +0100 <tomsmeding> if there is no information in a particular result, there is nothing to forget to use
2024-01-30 21:01:01 +0100 <monochrom> There is no information in a U result.
2024-01-30 21:01:07 +0100 <tomsmeding> I guess it's just uncommon to have a data type that's isomorphic to () :p
2024-01-30 21:01:18 +0100 <tomsmeding> ("why not just use ()?")
2024-01-30 21:01:23 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-01-30 21:01:47 +0100 <beogrif> I _guess_ you could check it's not bottom but that'd be rare
2024-01-30 21:02:04 +0100 <tomsmeding> sure -- but that would apply to () as well
2024-01-30 21:02:19 +0100 <monochrom> One can also check for ()'s bottom with "() <- putStrLn foo".
2024-01-30 21:02:25 +0100 <tomsmeding> and I would happy write off putting information in non-bottomness as an anti-pattern
2024-01-30 21:02:28 +0100 <tomsmeding> *happily
2024-01-30 21:02:45 +0100 <monochrom> See? Everything you say about (), I can say about U too. They are isomorphic.
2024-01-30 21:02:54 +0100 <tomsmeding> I'm not disagreeing :p
2024-01-30 21:03:10 +0100SAJAT(~sajat@84-236-3-92.pool.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-01-30 21:03:12 +0100 <beogrif> tomsmeding, yeah definitely
2024-01-30 21:03:19 +0100 <EvanR> () has 2 connected components and U has only 1!
2024-01-30 21:03:29 +0100 <tomsmeding> monochrom: surely almost everyone you give this example to must have asked you "why do you not just use ()"
2024-01-30 21:03:38 +0100cereb(~cereb@2a01:799:e26:7600:b1a6:730b:5538:b5cc)
2024-01-30 21:03:43 +0100 <tomsmeding> which _in itself_ is an admission that they're isomorphic
2024-01-30 21:03:55 +0100 <tomsmeding> ignoring topological properties of their typical rendering in computer typefaces
2024-01-30 21:04:01 +0100tomsmedingglances at EvanR
2024-01-30 21:04:20 +0100 <monochrom> I don't have an answer for that. But I don't need to, in the context where I say what's wrong with that warning and why it is a bug.
2024-01-30 21:04:38 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:6917:2efe:dcc7:7830) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-01-30 21:04:42 +0100skiidly ponders singletons, and GADTs in general
2024-01-30 21:04:45 +0100SAJAT(~sajat@87-97-88-242.pool.digikabel.hu)
2024-01-30 21:04:46 +0100 <tomsmeding> have you actually been in this situation?
2024-01-30 21:04:54 +0100alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3340-4b4a-508b-2d3b-124e-ef2f.rev.sfr.net)
2024-01-30 21:05:09 +0100 <EvanR> all singletons are isomorphic
2024-01-30 21:05:17 +0100 <EvanR> type level programming is a sham
2024-01-30 21:05:20 +0100 <beogrif> oh yeah, singletons
2024-01-30 21:05:50 +0100 <monochrom> I think I once had some experimental code that for some reason I preferred my own unit type and got bitten.
2024-01-30 21:05:51 +0100 <beogrif> it's hard to go back from dependent typing to not, though I haven't been driven to using singletons yet
2024-01-30 21:06:00 +0100 <tomsmeding> I would consider the constructor of a single-constructor-without-fields singleton to not be isomorphic to () for the purposes of this warning: there is information in it
2024-01-30 21:06:04 +0100 <monochrom> I grant you that it happened only once.
2024-01-30 21:06:18 +0100 <tomsmeding> monochrom: then you have the right to complain :)
2024-01-30 21:06:41 +0100 <tomsmeding> beogrif: you can also do your dependent typing in haskell and have the worst of both worlds!
2024-01-30 21:06:47 +0100 <tomsmeding> singletons galore
2024-01-30 21:07:01 +0100 <beogrif> I'm holding out for DH if possible
2024-01-30 21:08:05 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 21:08:09 +0100 <EvanR> 0 carries no information. 1 carries no information. mysteriously, a stream of 0s and 1s may carry information. find the cheat
2024-01-30 21:08:42 +0100skipoints to the exformation
2024-01-30 21:08:50 +0100 <monochrom> No no no, EvanR. 0 carries infinite information! That's the real surprise and bugger. :)
2024-01-30 21:08:54 +0100 <tomsmeding> a stream of (0 or 1)s carries information
2024-01-30 21:08:59 +0100 <beogrif> yeah bits are 1 + 1
2024-01-30 21:09:06 +0100 <tomsmeding> a stream of 0s and 1s does not :)
2024-01-30 21:09:14 +0100 <beogrif> 1 + 0 would mean you can't construct zero bits at all or whatever
2024-01-30 21:09:33 +0100 <EvanR> exformation?
2024-01-30 21:09:43 +0100 <monochrom> hahaha this plays into "or" vs "and"
2024-01-30 21:09:46 +0100 <beogrif> you have to think outside the box
2024-01-30 21:10:08 +0100 <ski> the surrounding context that allows you to interpret data as information meaningfully
2024-01-30 21:10:13 +0100 <beogrif> Exformation is related to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extropy
2024-01-30 21:10:25 +0100 <monochrom> Natural language's "stream of 0s and 1s" is a sloppy way to say "(the stream contains 0) and (the stream contains 1)"
2024-01-30 21:10:32 +0100 <beogrif> oh it's actually a thing nvm
2024-01-30 21:10:42 +0100 <ski> e.g. ribosomes, in relation to DNA and RNA
2024-01-30 21:10:49 +0100 <tomsmeding> i.e. the cheat was that the language was deceptively ambiguous :)
2024-01-30 21:11:10 +0100 <EvanR> information is more than the sum of its parts
2024-01-30 21:11:26 +0100 <EvanR> sum type of its parts
2024-01-30 21:11:29 +0100 <ski> or, a pre-arranged agreement that ringing six signals, then hanging up, means something in particular
2024-01-30 21:11:33 +0100alexherbo2(~alexherbo@2a02-8440-3340-4b4a-508b-2d3b-124e-ef2f.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-01-30 21:11:58 +0100tri_(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-01-30 21:12:09 +0100sudden(~cat@user/sudden) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-01-30 21:12:20 +0100 <EvanR> ah yeah, like, if you get a letter with 1000 zeros, or don't get anything by the deadline, that means something
2024-01-30 21:12:56 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-01-30 21:13:03 +0100 <ski> information in `A + B' comes from not knowing, a priori, whether you've actually got an `A', or a `B' (and then the information contained in that alternative itself)
2024-01-30 21:13:09 +0100 <monochrom> I don't see how transhumanism has to do with needing context/protocol to interpret bit streams. :)
2024-01-30 21:14:47 +0100 <ski> (so, you could say it's the inclusions which add that bit of information)
2024-01-30 21:15:36 +0100 <beogrif> yeah, particularly since in type theory you can't "distinguish the inhabitants" of two types without functions/inclusions, unlike might be presumed in a set theory
2024-01-30 21:16:10 +0100 <ski> @where boolean-blindness
2024-01-30 21:16:11 +0100 <lambdabot> http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/boolean-blindness/
2024-01-30 21:16:14 +0100tri_(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-01-30 21:17:24 +0100 <beogrif> heh
2024-01-30 21:17:54 +0100 <beogrif> what about () blindness :o
2024-01-30 21:18:40 +0100 <EvanR> two inhabitants, () and undefined xD
2024-01-30 21:18:54 +0100 <beogrif> hilarious
2024-01-30 21:18:54 +0100sudden(~cat@user/sudden)
2024-01-30 21:18:55 +0100 <ski> Sierpinski is a weird type
2024-01-30 21:19:20 +0100 <ski> @where topology
2024-01-30 21:19:20 +0100 <lambdabot> "topology in Haskell" <http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2004-June/014134.html> and "Synthetic topology of data types and classical spaces" <http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/entcs87.(pdf|
2024-01-30 21:19:21 +0100 <lambdabot> dvi|ps)> by Mart�n Escard�
2024-01-30 21:19:25 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 21:19:50 +0100 <beogrif> topology of logic stuff is still so weird but it's getting more intuitive
2024-01-30 21:20:11 +0100 <beogrif> I guess learning more homotopy type theory helped
2024-01-30 21:20:14 +0100skithinks lambdabot has started cutting up responses into shorter fragments, semi-recently ..
2024-01-30 21:23:47 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
2024-01-30 21:23:56 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-01-30 21:26:37 +0100 <tomsmeding> also some encoding went wrong there
2024-01-30 21:26:44 +0100ystael(~ystael@user/ystael)
2024-01-30 21:27:16 +0100 <tomsmeding> (it came in as a unicode replacement character here)
2024-01-30 21:27:19 +0100 <beogrif> same
2024-01-30 21:27:39 +0100 <geekosaur> I got ó
2024-01-30 21:27:47 +0100 <tomsmeding> it's probably latin-1
2024-01-30 21:27:47 +0100 <geekosaur> suspect it's ISO8859-1
2024-01-30 21:27:50 +0100 <tomsmeding> that
2024-01-30 21:28:02 +0100tomsmedingcannot remember that number
2024-01-30 21:28:11 +0100 <EvanR> Martín Escardó
2024-01-30 21:28:20 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-01-30 21:28:41 +0100 <tomsmeding> @where+ topology "topology in Haskell" <http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2004-June/014134.html> and "Synthetic topology of data types and classical spaces" <http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/entcs87.(pdf|dvi|ps)> by Martín Escardó
2024-01-30 21:28:42 +0100 <lambdabot> Done.
2024-01-30 21:28:46 +0100 <tomsmeding> @where topology
2024-01-30 21:28:46 +0100 <lambdabot> "topology in Haskell" <http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2004-June/014134.html> and "Synthetic topology of data types and classical spaces" <http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/entcs87.(pdf|
2024-01-30 21:28:46 +0100 <lambdabot> dvi|ps)> by Martín Escardó
2024-01-30 21:28:48 +0100 <tomsmeding> there.
2024-01-30 21:29:19 +0100skisees no difference, in Irssi
2024-01-30 21:29:43 +0100 <tomsmeding> irssi and whatever geekosaur is using probably render non-utf8 bytes as iso-8859-1
2024-01-30 21:29:45 +0100 <EvanR> I imagine people still fixing stuff like that in 2124
2024-01-30 21:29:50 +0100pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2024-01-30 21:29:59 +0100 <geekosaur> hexchat uses iso8859-1 aas fallback by default
2024-01-30 21:30:16 +0100 <ski> makes sense
2024-01-30 21:30:19 +0100 <Rembane> My irssi gives a difference. It's prettier now. No odd question mark characters.
2024-01-30 21:30:20 +0100 <tomsmeding> weechat just U+FFFDs it
2024-01-30 21:30:20 +0100 <EvanR> I'm using hexchat... but I got question marks
2024-01-30 21:30:25 +0100dhruvasagar(~dhruvasag@49.207.206.234)
2024-01-30 21:30:42 +0100 <tomsmeding> ( https://tomsmeding.com/unicode#U+FFFD )
2024-01-30 21:30:43 +0100 <geekosaur> there's a settings checkbox for the fallback behavior iirc
2024-01-30 21:30:52 +0100 <monochrom> I explicit told my hexchat to dishonour ISO-8859-1.
2024-01-30 21:31:00 +0100 <monochrom> ISO-8859-1 die die die.
2024-01-30 21:31:43 +0100mobivme(~mobivme@130.105.134.228)
2024-01-30 21:31:57 +0100 <EvanR> codepage 437 is superior
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