IRCBrowse

2023/08/17

2023-08-17 00:01:10 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-08-17 00:03:45 +0200 <probie> I'd weaken that to "one unique method". I'm happy for `Ord` to have both `compare` and `<=`, since it's still defining "one thing", but allows common cases to be optimised
2023-08-17 00:04:06 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@188.164.224.156) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2023-08-17 00:05:59 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net)
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2023-08-17 00:10:42 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-17 00:11:22 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2023-08-17 00:11:37 +0200thyriaen(~thyriaen@2a01:aea0:dd4:6b99:6245:cbff:fe9f:48b1) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-17 00:13:16 +0200caryhartline(~caryhartl@168.182.58.169)
2023-08-17 00:24:02 +0200 <EvanR> monochrom, apparently rust has embraced the equivalent of a Default typeclass. Which we have but no one is excited with. I wonder what we're missing
2023-08-17 00:24:15 +0200 <EvanR> maybe I should look for a pure empty class
2023-08-17 00:25:17 +0200 <davean> EvanR: what do you mean? They're used fairly widely. The problem is you can't really generalize on them, you have to deal with them as a special case every time.
2023-08-17 00:25:42 +0200 <geekosaur> xmonad uses Default all over the place. it's already caused some bugs
2023-08-17 00:25:45 +0200 <davean> You may not even realize when they're used because they're always a special case, inherently.
2023-08-17 00:26:41 +0200 <geekosaur> (https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad/issues/293)
2023-08-17 00:26:44 +0200tabaqui(~root@88.238.15.186) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-17 00:26:48 +0200 <EvanR> hmm. Well by my limited reading of Default trait in rust it's like for picking zero for numbers and filling in zero in all the fields of a struct
2023-08-17 00:27:09 +0200caryhartline(~caryhartl@168.182.58.169) (Quit: caryhartline)
2023-08-17 00:27:16 +0200 <EvanR> which I wouldn't imagine is helpful or warranted a lot of the time
2023-08-17 00:27:58 +0200 <davean> EvanR: what zero means isn't well defined across locations
2023-08-17 00:28:00 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2023-08-17 00:28:18 +0200 <glguy> If people stuck to Default meaning "zero" and only implemented it for types where it was obvious what zero meant, that'd be fine
2023-08-17 00:28:22 +0200caryhartline(~caryhartl@168.182.58.169)
2023-08-17 00:28:28 +0200 <geekosaur> "zero" isn't determined by type, but by context
2023-08-17 00:28:39 +0200 <glguy> but peolpe like to get clever and put like just general purpose default settings in the Default instances
2023-08-17 00:28:43 +0200 <davean> There isn't even just one zero
2023-08-17 00:29:00 +0200 <davean> Zero is in a context
2023-08-17 00:29:23 +0200 <EvanR> there is one "all zero bits" float, which is fine xD
2023-08-17 00:29:46 +0200 <EvanR> better than corrupted memory
2023-08-17 00:29:47 +0200 <davean> EvanR: you say that ...
2023-08-17 00:30:05 +0200mima(~mmh@net-93-67-213-242.cust.vodafonedsl.it) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 00:30:30 +0200 <davean> EvanR: IEEE 754 added interchange formats but ...
2023-08-17 00:34:07 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 00:34:31 +0200 <monochrom> EvanR: But do the Rust people have a trait that has both default and error? >:)
2023-08-17 00:35:14 +0200 <EvanR> like, a bottom value?
2023-08-17 00:35:38 +0200caryhartline(~caryhartl@168.182.58.169) (Quit: caryhartline)
2023-08-17 00:36:09 +0200 <EvanR> u32 adjoin ⊥
2023-08-17 00:36:36 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2023-08-17 00:36:50 +0200ulysses4ever(~artem@2607:fb91:2fa3:58e8:f474:e3f8:9806:671)
2023-08-17 00:37:00 +0200bgs(~bgs@212-85-160-171.dynamic.telemach.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-17 00:37:15 +0200 <monochrom> I am more lax than 5 years ago about type classes. I am OK with Default, but I suspect that most use cases should have no trouble going all the way of Monoid.
2023-08-17 00:38:23 +0200 <int-e> monophily
2023-08-17 00:38:52 +0200 <monochrom> The other angle and cautionary tale is that someone in the PHP community actually noticed and raised hell about their time type having the default value of 0 which never makes sense.
2023-08-17 00:38:58 +0200 <davean> monochrom: monoid says which zero, which helps a lot.
2023-08-17 00:39:12 +0200 <davean> monochrom: whats wrong with time 0?
2023-08-17 00:39:22 +0200tabaqui(~root@88.238.9.97)
2023-08-17 00:39:41 +0200 <monochrom> 0 of that time type means an arbitrarily chosen point of time such as 1970 Jan 1 etc etc
2023-08-17 00:39:46 +0200slac28156(~slack1256@181.203.38.129) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-08-17 00:39:58 +0200 <davean> monochrom: yes, exactly.
2023-08-17 00:40:16 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f293dac0765791dcab4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-08-17 00:41:35 +0200 <monochrom> Another way to see it is from a friend who taught a math class for paramedics and noticed the problem with this question: A patient's body temperature was 98F yesterday, 99F today, what's the percentage increase?
2023-08-17 00:41:37 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net)
2023-08-17 00:42:23 +0200 <davean> monochrom: I hate converting F to K
2023-08-17 00:42:55 +0200g(~glguy@libera/staff-emeritus/glguy) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-17 00:42:59 +0200 <monochrom> Oh the textbook model answer was "(99 - 98) / 98". That's the problem.
2023-08-17 00:43:00 +0200 <davean> And pelase don't mention Rankine
2023-08-17 00:43:02 +0200Guest7433(~glguy@2601:1c0:4c02:8d80::3)
2023-08-17 00:43:25 +0200 <davean> oh well, uh thats ... special. But having an origion makes sense.
2023-08-17 00:43:26 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-151.ip4.superloop.au)
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2023-08-17 00:43:57 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-08-17 00:43:58 +0200dobblegodibblego
2023-08-17 00:44:13 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8)
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2023-08-17 00:45:57 +0200 <davean> monochrom: why would they even ask that question?
2023-08-17 00:46:05 +0200 <davean> I'm unclear what the relivency is
2023-08-17 00:46:42 +0200 <monochrom> 9th-rate textbook authors adhering to the religion of "must make a word problem".
2023-08-17 00:46:46 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-17 00:46:51 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2023-08-17 00:47:22 +0200 <monochrom> The lesson is supposed to be just calculating percentage increase/decrease.
2023-08-17 00:47:44 +0200 <monochrom> The XY problem is then "the students are paramedics so let's dress it up in terms of body temperature"
2023-08-17 00:48:28 +0200 <monochrom> You know what, generally everything that goes wrong can be traced back to religions and XY problems.
2023-08-17 00:48:41 +0200 <davean> anyway its 2e-3
2023-08-17 00:48:48 +0200 <davean> if you wanted to know
2023-08-17 00:50:41 +0200 <monochrom> If you think that fibonacci are factorial are poor examples for teaching recursion, you have no idea how bad real education out there is. >:)
2023-08-17 00:50:46 +0200 <davean> I assume the questions required the correct significant figures
2023-08-17 00:53:10 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-08-17 00:53:33 +0200 <hpc> ironically, it was the chain rule for derivatives that made recursion fully intuitive for me, because of lazy textbookiness
2023-08-17 00:54:10 +0200 <hpc> i wanted to just get through computing all these stupid derivatives already, and all that repetition and motivation meant if i saw that the chain rule was recursion, i would get done faster
2023-08-17 00:54:47 +0200 <monochrom> Did you turn it into dynamic programming? :)
2023-08-17 00:54:57 +0200 <davean> Hum, I think I was comfortable with recursion over a decade before I got to calculous
2023-08-17 00:55:16 +0200 <glguy> calculus + fabulous
2023-08-17 00:55:37 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2023-08-17 00:55:45 +0200 <hpc> davean: eh, there are degrees of comfortable
2023-08-17 00:56:09 +0200 <hpc> i could handle recursion for a while before, but in that sort of first year physics "electrons are both particles and waves" way
2023-08-17 00:56:29 +0200 <hpc> that was where i could really do new stuff with it
2023-08-17 00:58:43 +0200 <hpc> or maybe a better way to put it is, that was where i started to see it everywhere and not just on a computer
2023-08-17 01:01:25 +0200 <davean> Yah I was comfortable with recursion long before I ever saw a computer.
2023-08-17 01:01:41 +0200 <davean> computers came fairly late in life for me.
2023-08-17 01:02:02 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net)
2023-08-17 01:02:06 +0200 <hpc> ah
2023-08-17 01:02:28 +0200 <davean> I expect the first recursion I ever did was for angle splitting for wood working when I was about 5
2023-08-17 01:02:57 +0200 <EvanR> wait Rankine would have made that question easier
2023-08-17 01:03:34 +0200 <davean> EvanR: yah, I converted the temp to ranking and did 1/(rankine(98). I just hated that I did.
2023-08-17 01:03:56 +0200zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a010:9500::7fe) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2023-08-17 01:04:10 +0200 <EvanR> but the correct answer is obviously to convert to kelvins just out of spite
2023-08-17 01:04:28 +0200 <davean> I'd have lost accuracy if I did that
2023-08-17 01:04:38 +0200 <davean> I was easier to get right via rankine
2023-08-17 01:06:45 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 01:09:33 +0200 <dolio> You two are failing the easy math course.
2023-08-17 01:09:52 +0200 <dolio> Just like Richard Feynman.
2023-08-17 01:10:13 +0200 <davean> Thanks for making me feel like a losser
2023-08-17 01:12:11 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2023-08-17 01:12:28 +0200 <ncf> "i could handle recursion for a while"
2023-08-17 01:13:27 +0200 <int-e> hmmm, then I learned about tail recursion and now I can handle recursion forever
2023-08-17 01:13:35 +0200 <int-e> :t forever
2023-08-17 01:13:36 +0200 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f a -> f b
2023-08-17 01:14:00 +0200 <EvanR> guarded unsafeCoerce
2023-08-17 01:14:05 +0200 <int-e> (which, for many f, isn't tail recursive)
2023-08-17 01:14:11 +0200 <int-e> :t coerce
2023-08-17 01:14:12 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2023-08-17 01:14:12 +0200 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: coerce
2023-08-17 01:14:12 +0200 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘coerced’ (imported from Control.Lens)
2023-08-17 01:14:18 +0200 <int-e> :t Data.Coerce.coerce
2023-08-17 01:14:19 +0200 <lambdabot> Coercible a b => a -> b
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2023-08-17 07:27:10 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-08-17 07:27:38 +0200Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus)
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2023-08-17 07:32:38 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.205)
2023-08-17 07:35:13 +0200 <aditya> Hi
2023-08-17 07:35:27 +0200_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Quit: _ht)
2023-08-17 07:37:44 +0200adityaadix
2023-08-17 07:47:29 +0200 <probie> adix: in many IRC channels (including #haskell), it's unusual to respond to a "hello" message. If you have a question, just ask it
2023-08-17 07:54:54 +0200libertyprime(~libertypr@203.96.203.44) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-08-17 07:58:47 +0200 <adix> I wanted to try haskell by practical, and slowly , what are my options
2023-08-17 08:00:11 +0200 <adix> I have been reading/ learning haskell , but without problem solving i dont get confidence about it
2023-08-17 08:00:24 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f073dac0765791dcab4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-08-17 08:02:10 +0200oo_miguel(~Thunderbi@78-11-179-96.static.ip.netia.com.pl)
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2023-08-17 08:05:07 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@116.255.1.151)
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2023-08-17 08:07:08 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
2023-08-17 08:08:56 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2023-08-17 08:13:29 +0200Square(~Square4@user/square)
2023-08-17 08:15:59 +0200 <Lycurgus> adix, I presume you meant confidence in your ability to use it
2023-08-17 08:16:09 +0200aditya(~aditya@49.15.230.132)
2023-08-17 08:16:52 +0200 <Lycurgus> confidence in it as such should be self evident from its use and pervasiveness in certain circles
2023-08-17 08:17:06 +0200 <Lycurgus> although that did peak a while back
2023-08-17 08:17:52 +0200adix(~aditya@2402:8100:31ad:5f10:a0f6:d968:af6e:2d2b) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2023-08-17 08:47:04 +0200 <Axman6> adix: your question is hard to answer without knowing wat sorts of things interest you, building simple web services can be quite useful for getting started with practical haskell, like databases, dealing with textual data properly (learning the differences between String, Text and ByteString, etc.). The book real world Haskell is fairly old now, and in need of an update, but is available for free online, and the chapters might give you ideas of the sorts of t
2023-08-17 08:47:05 +0200 <Axman6> hings you want to play with: v
2023-08-17 08:47:08 +0200 <Axman6> https://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/
2023-08-17 08:47:33 +0200 <Axman6> There are also some newer books available, but I'm not too familiar with them
2023-08-17 08:47:56 +0200dsrt^(~cd@c-66-56-7-24.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
2023-08-17 08:59:06 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:c5b0:d89f:32c9:52c1)
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2023-08-17 09:04:48 +0200jargon(~jargon@174-22-213-62.phnx.qwest.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-17 09:06:51 +0200 <adix> so my past is web application / Rest API / MVC / databases etc etc
2023-08-17 09:07:21 +0200 <adix> for latest/ updated content of haskell where should i look / which book
2023-08-17 09:07:25 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2023-08-17 09:08:59 +0200adix(~aditya@49.15.230.132) (Quit: Leaving)
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2023-08-17 09:14:45 +0200accord(uid568320@id-568320.hampstead.irccloud.com)
2023-08-17 09:14:58 +0200 <nikeedev> Hello Haskells!
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2023-08-17 13:33:51 +0200Yuriosity(~Yuriosity@212.176.193.181)
2023-08-17 13:34:22 +0200 <Yuriosity> Has anybody used IHaskell/ipython-kernel? I have troubles with installing a sample kernel :(
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2023-08-17 14:05:44 +0200 <gastus> Has anybody tried translating popluar frameworks like react to Haskell to see how much better/worse Haskell performs with SSR ? due to fusion like optimizations I expect Haskell to perform quite well
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2023-08-17 14:59:16 +0200 <albet70> is there a general way to extract a or b in Mk a b?
2023-08-17 15:00:16 +0200 <albet70> I know it could be getA (Mk a ) = a, is there more in general like id or const?
2023-08-17 15:01:14 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
2023-08-17 15:01:20 +0200 <exarkun> Are there docs somewhere about how to go about bootstrapping a ghc from source?
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2023-08-17 15:38:04 +0200dobblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-08-17 15:38:04 +0200 <glguy> albet70: you'd need to build something like that with GHC.Generics
2023-08-17 15:38:22 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2023-08-17 15:38:27 +0200adeptangel(cren@tilde.team)
2023-08-17 15:38:34 +0200dobblegodibblego
2023-08-17 15:39:13 +0200 <adeptangel> hi, beginner question here. Why does Haskell use algebraic data types like those created by `data` like it does? What are the advantages over, say, just using structs?
2023-08-17 15:39:30 +0200 <glguy> exarkun: asking in #ghc might find the right eyeballs
2023-08-17 15:39:34 +0200 <exarkun> glguy: THanks
2023-08-17 15:40:25 +0200 <glguy> adeptangel: structs can't define multiple alternatives
2023-08-17 15:41:11 +0200 <adeptangel> glguy: that's true but then why might I want multiple alternatives?
2023-08-17 15:41:38 +0200 <glguy> Branching and multiple choice happens regularly in programming
2023-08-17 15:42:49 +0200 <glguy> In C you can use a union with a manually defined tag to deal with thus, but the language doesn't help you link those
2023-08-17 15:43:30 +0200 <adeptangel> I'm just asking because algebraic data types feel harder to use than structs at the moment so I'm trying to understand what their strengths are
2023-08-17 15:43:34 +0200 <ncf> @src Bool
2023-08-17 15:43:34 +0200 <lambdabot> data Bool = False | True deriving (Eq, Ord)
2023-08-17 15:43:42 +0200 <glguy> With well defined "sums" and "products" via data you get pattern matching and language support for checking variants
2023-08-17 15:43:44 +0200 <ncf> how would you define Bool as a struct?
2023-08-17 15:44:19 +0200jijibao(~jijibao@74.82.60.33) (Quit: Client closed)
2023-08-17 15:44:41 +0200 <adeptangel> ncf: quite true, but most languages define bool as a primitive type, right? so it doesn't need to be defined in terms of anything
2023-08-17 15:44:48 +0200 <glguy> Maybe you could be more specific about what you're struggling with
2023-08-17 15:45:59 +0200 <glguy> adeptangel: right, and it's good if you aren't locked into only the primitive types that come with your language.
2023-08-17 15:46:26 +0200 <glguy> So you can make new ones that are more specific to the problem you're solving
2023-08-17 15:47:11 +0200AlexNoo_AlexNoo
2023-08-17 15:47:57 +0200 <addem> @adeptangel One of the primary examples that comes to my mind is a compiler. People build their own compiler all the time, designed for their own interest. The basic task is to take a piece of writing and turn it into a structured expression.
2023-08-17 15:47:58 +0200 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
2023-08-17 15:48:01 +0200 <glguy> Some languages have enumerations but then give up too quickly and don't allow you to associate different fields with each enumeration
2023-08-17 15:48:43 +0200 <addem> Well, algebraic data types are a great way to represent structured expressions. Because fundamentally, your expression is going to be one of "Primitive" or "Plus" or "Times" or "Equals" or ...
2023-08-17 15:48:55 +0200 <addem> And so on, depending on your desired language.
2023-08-17 15:50:04 +0200 <addem> But the point is just that you want to (1) determine which kind of expression a given instance is, and (2) use that kind of expression's carried data (so if it's an "Equals" then it should carry two things, which you want to decide if they're equal).
2023-08-17 15:50:19 +0200 <adeptangel> addem: good point, I have actually used Haskell for this purpose in a uni project
2023-08-17 15:50:31 +0200simikando(~simikando@bband-dyn179.95-103-254.t-com.sk)
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2023-08-17 15:51:14 +0200 <adeptangel> I think I've identified what it is that I don't understand about algebraic data types: what actually *is* a value?
2023-08-17 15:51:16 +0200 <addem> Yeah, any good functional programming course generally makes that a kind of capstone project. Because the fit between compiler design and functional programming is nearly hand-in-glove.
2023-08-17 15:51:29 +0200 <adeptangel> addem: that makes sense
2023-08-17 15:52:00 +0200 <ncf> a value is what you decide it is
2023-08-17 15:52:10 +0200 <adeptangel> I'm typing an example
2023-08-17 15:52:36 +0200 <adeptangel> suppose you have a data type data Card = Diamond Int | Heart Int | Spade Int | Club Int
2023-08-17 15:52:58 +0200 <adeptangel> when I use a constructor like Diamond to create a value of type Card, what actually gets stored?
2023-08-17 15:53:30 +0200 <adeptangel> I'm guessing that at least the constructor and the value passed must be stored, otherwise you wouldn't be able to use pattern-matching to get them back later
2023-08-17 15:53:47 +0200ystael(~ystael@user/ystael)
2023-08-17 15:53:56 +0200 <ncf> correct, you get a tag representing "Diamond" and then an Int
2023-08-17 15:55:01 +0200 <adeptangel> also coming from non-Haskell languages it feels strange that you can only retrive the values using pattern-matching
2023-08-17 15:55:09 +0200 <adeptangel> (unless there's another way I don't know about)
2023-08-17 15:55:18 +0200 <addem> Good question, I don't know the low-level details. If anyone else does I'd be happy to hear it. But obviously there must be at least three things, one way or another: We must store the data type (i.e. Card), and variant (i.e. Diamond), and carried data (the particular Int). The compiler must understand that, if this is stored in variable `x`, then `x` has all three of these associated with it.
2023-08-17 15:55:24 +0200 <addem> Not sure if that answers the question though.
2023-08-17 15:56:01 +0200 <ncf> the data type is actually not stored at runtime because ghc performs type erasure
2023-08-17 15:56:24 +0200 <ncf> it knows at compile time that a particular place in memory holds a Card, and that is enough
2023-08-17 15:56:39 +0200hgolden(~hgolden@2603:8000:9d00:3ed1:fc05:5499:f77c:fbe5) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-17 15:57:03 +0200 <addem> I think the intent behind accessing structured data through pattern matching is so that you don't have to (and nobody wants to) do low-level programming when it's a distraction from you're real needs.
2023-08-17 15:57:24 +0200 <addem> By restricting how you interface with the data, you are kept from having to think about memory addresses and such.
2023-08-17 15:58:02 +0200 <addem> *your
2023-08-17 15:58:15 +0200 <lortabac> adeptangel: in Go there is this convention of returning an error together with a result
2023-08-17 15:58:23 +0200 <lortabac> err, result := doSomething()
2023-08-17 15:58:25 +0200 <exarkun> And considering there are multiple versions of ghc and multiple code generator backends, there isn't even one single representation in memory at runtime.
2023-08-17 15:58:56 +0200 <lortabac> you check whether err is nil and you proceed accordingly
2023-08-17 15:59:22 +0200 <lortabac> now think about this: in (err, result) what is the value of result if there is an error?
2023-08-17 15:59:35 +0200 <lortabac> that variable has no meaning
2023-08-17 15:59:47 +0200 <lortabac> but Go doesn't let you express this concept
2023-08-17 16:00:17 +0200 <lortabac> in Haskell you would use 'Either Error Result' and get either an error or a valid result
2023-08-17 16:00:52 +0200 <lortabac> no risk of accidentally using an undefined variable
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2023-08-17 16:04:06 +0200 <dolio> In a case like card, you can make all the constructors records with a common field name, like `Diamond {value :: Int} | Heart {value :: Int} ...`. Then you can project out the value with `value result`, if that's what you mean.
2023-08-17 16:04:20 +0200merijn(~merijn@83.128.129.88)
2023-08-17 16:04:25 +0200 <dolio> Of course, you could write the function yourself, too.
2023-08-17 16:05:54 +0200 <adeptangel> addem: the thing you said about avoiding low-level programming makes sense
2023-08-17 16:06:34 +0200 <dolio> Of course, you can also represent it like `data Card = C { suit :: Suit, value :: Int }`
2023-08-17 16:07:32 +0200pierrot(~pi@user/pierrot) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-17 16:07:43 +0200 <adeptangel> dolio: i'm not actually super familiar with Haskell's record syntax, could you write an example (for the first thing you said)?
2023-08-17 16:07:54 +0200ames(~amelia@offtopia/offtopian/amelia) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2023-08-17 16:07:55 +0200 <adeptangel> i.e. what do you mean by `value result`
2023-08-17 16:08:10 +0200ames(~amelia@offtopia/offtopian/amelia)
2023-08-17 16:08:30 +0200 <dolio> When you have constructors like that, a function `value :: Card -> Int` will be auto-generated.
2023-08-17 16:08:43 +0200 <adeptangel> and thanks everyone for your comments! I think the root of my problem is that I learned Haskell fairly quickly and I'm worried I might be using algebraic data types in the wrong way
2023-08-17 16:08:59 +0200 <dolio> If every constructor has a `value` field, that function will never fail.
2023-08-17 16:09:30 +0200 <adeptangel> dolio: ah that makes sense thanks
2023-08-17 16:09:45 +0200pierrot(~pi@user/pierrot)
2023-08-17 16:10:27 +0200 <ncf> Int + Int + Int + Int = 4 * Int
2023-08-17 16:11:08 +0200 <ncf> (Diamond Int | Club Int | Heart Int | Spade Int) = (Suit, Int)
2023-08-17 16:12:01 +0200 <ncf> (if you wonder why they're called "sum types" and "product types")
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2023-08-17 16:16:43 +0200jero98772(~jero98772@2800:484:1d84:300::2)
2023-08-17 16:16:55 +0200 <adeptangel> ncf: the first one is a product type and the second one is a sum right? that's funny because I would have named them the other way around :S
2023-08-17 16:17:23 +0200 <ncf> yes
2023-08-17 16:17:44 +0200 <adeptangel> the second one reminds me of Cartesian product
2023-08-17 16:18:00 +0200 <ncf> also yes
2023-08-17 16:18:02 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
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2023-08-17 16:22:02 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.90.224)
2023-08-17 16:22:28 +0200 <adeptangel> is it normal to use algebraic data types for most user-defined types in Haskell? Or should I be using structs more?
2023-08-17 16:22:31 +0200 <adeptangel> uh, records
2023-08-17 16:24:03 +0200 <dolio> Records in Haskell are just algebraic types with some extra features.
2023-08-17 16:25:10 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:c463:2a1:afdf:1815)
2023-08-17 16:25:39 +0200 <dolio> But, you should use whatever representation is best suited to what you're doing.
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2023-08-17 17:40:40 +0200YuutaW(~YuutaW@mail.yuuta.moe)
2023-08-17 17:44:32 +0200 <EvanR> they left. But a record is basically a struct right
2023-08-17 17:44:48 +0200 <EvanR> give or take naming restrictions on the fields
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2023-08-17 18:19:45 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-08-17 18:20:22 +0200 <addem> Yeah, far as I know, a record is basically a struct.
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2023-08-17 18:21:12 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@146.70.166.136)
2023-08-17 18:21:26 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net)
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2023-08-17 18:22:14 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:c463:2a1:afdf:1815)
2023-08-17 18:22:32 +0200 <addem> Can a record be exported the same way a struct can? Maybe that's some kind of significant difference corresponding to low-level implementations, ... possibly corresponding to differences in performance? I really dunno.
2023-08-17 18:22:45 +0200 <geekosaur> Storable instance
2023-08-17 18:23:23 +0200 <geekosaur> the struct itself is a collection of pointers, and the pointed-to values generally are represented differently than in C; the Storable class can be used to map between them
2023-08-17 18:25:07 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
2023-08-17 18:25:08 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8)
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2023-08-17 18:28:45 +0200cptaffe(~cptaffe@99-47-99-155.lightspeed.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net)
2023-08-17 18:32:07 +0200 <EvanR> Storable can mediate between an actual C struct and an equivalent haskell record right? And serializing/deserializing is something else
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2023-08-17 18:37:00 +0200 <geekosaur> yes. generally the binary or cereal libraries are used for serialization/deserialization
2023-08-17 18:37:17 +0200 <geekosaur> althoyugh some packages roll their own with attoparsec or flatparse
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2023-08-17 19:09:23 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.90.224)
2023-08-17 19:11:40 +0200 <monochrom> record = struct = product but it is an unpopular opinion.
2023-08-17 19:12:24 +0200 <monochrom> People programmers (who else?) make a big fuss with things like "but record has field names!"
2023-08-17 19:12:39 +0200 <monochrom> s/People/Because/
2023-08-17 19:14:02 +0200vpan(~vpan@212.117.1.172) (Quit: Leaving.)
2023-08-17 19:15:44 +0200cptaffe(~cptaffe@99-47-99-155.lightspeed.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net)
2023-08-17 19:15:46 +0200geekosaur*tiny violin*
2023-08-17 19:16:14 +0200 <EvanR> the empty record (and empty product ()) have no field names, so they're wrong
2023-08-17 19:16:44 +0200 <geekosaur> and anonymous records dba tuples
2023-08-17 19:16:59 +0200 <monochrom> More unpopular opinion: CPS = callback style = using >>=
2023-08-17 19:17:27 +0200 <geekosaur> am I supposed to disagree with that?
2023-08-17 19:17:47 +0200 <dminuoso> "X is basically Y" can be a confusing statement. While Haskell records definitely are not C structs, its probably more useful to compare them on how they relate.
2023-08-17 19:17:56 +0200 <mauke> joke's on you, C has no empty structs
2023-08-17 19:18:04 +0200 <monochrom> No, please agree with me always. :)
2023-08-17 19:18:24 +0200 <dolio> Field names are the big problem with records.
2023-08-17 19:18:39 +0200 <monochrom> But it's unpopular given that it's popular to say "'flatMap' is a bad name".
2023-08-17 19:18:55 +0200 <dolio> Always leading programmer to ask for computers to be solving exponential time problems because of them.
2023-08-17 19:19:48 +0200 <dminuoso> mauke: By the way, whether or not zero structs are permissable is not quite clear in the C standard.
2023-08-17 19:19:55 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-08-17 19:19:58 +0200 <EvanR> exponential time problems are easy. Just use moore's law
2023-08-17 19:20:22 +0200cptaffe(~cptaffe@99-47-99-155.lightspeed.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 19:21:21 +0200 <mauke> dminuoso: I thought you couldn't have them because every object needs a unique address and padding isn't allowed at the start of a struct
2023-08-17 19:23:00 +0200 <monochrom> dolio: Is it because of expecting DWIM type inference given field names?
2023-08-17 19:23:10 +0200 <dolio> Yeah.
2023-08-17 19:23:24 +0200 <dolio> And arbitrary rows of things with field names.
2023-08-17 19:23:38 +0200 <monochrom> Took me a while because at first I was thinking what happens after compilation and during run time.
2023-08-17 19:24:36 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 19:26:03 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91.159.68.236)
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2023-08-17 19:32:46 +0200 <monochrom> Oh hey new unpopular opinion: Surely computers are meant for exponential-time problems? If it's polynomial-time I would have done it myself already. >:)
2023-08-17 19:33:25 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-08-17 19:33:28 +0200 <dolio> Isn't that the standard nonsense opinion in computer science?
2023-08-17 19:33:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> monochrom: primality checking is polynomial time
2023-08-17 19:33:32 +0200 <monochrom> OK just joking, there are a lot of polynomial-time boring chore I don't want to do either heh.
2023-08-17 19:33:43 +0200 <dolio> I.E. polynomial time = "efficient"?
2023-08-17 19:33:51 +0200mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-17 19:34:43 +0200 <monochrom> But there are still several things I'm too lazy to write code for so I still do manually.
2023-08-17 19:35:06 +0200 <dolio> My O(n^(10^100)) algorithm that proves P=NP is so efficient.
2023-08-17 19:35:25 +0200 <monochrom> Wait you have one???!!!!
2023-08-17 19:35:32 +0200 <tomsmeding> monochrom: I suspect those are things that predominantly have some large amount of constant-time work, and hardly scale with input size
2023-08-17 19:36:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> my intuition tells me that P != NP, and the reason is that NP-complete things are typically very hard, so the exponent is likely not going to be low, and if it's high, why 12345 and not 12346
2023-08-17 19:36:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> add 10^ as you will
2023-08-17 19:37:27 +0200 <monochrom> tomsmeding: I am reflecting that my personal criterion for automation vs DIY is boredom. If I'm bored by something, I write code to automate it; else I don't (coding can be boring too). So boredom is correlated to time complexity but it is not a perfect match.
2023-08-17 19:38:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> like, I don't expect to be able to improve an O(n^3) algorithm much, in general -- a significant reduction, e.g. to n^2, is typically significantly harder than the n^3 version (or the n^3 version was dumb)
2023-08-17 19:38:23 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.90.224) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-08-17 19:38:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> but if you give me an n^1e100 algorithm, I bet it can be improved to n^(1e100 - 1)
2023-08-17 19:38:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> reductio ad absurdum
2023-08-17 19:38:55 +0200cptaffe(~cptaffe@99-47-99-155.lightspeed.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net)
2023-08-17 19:38:56 +0200 <dolio> Are they very hard, though? There's lots of practical NP complete solving going on.
2023-08-17 19:39:05 +0200 <tomsmeding> for common cases, yes
2023-08-17 19:39:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> as in, the common cases are doable
2023-08-17 19:39:19 +0200 <dolio> Yeah.
2023-08-17 19:39:48 +0200 <tomsmeding> monochrom: true
2023-08-17 19:39:51 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.90.224)
2023-08-17 19:40:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> the issue with programmers is that they typically like programming more than doing most other things that can be automated in the first place, so usually automating is more fun than doing
2023-08-17 19:40:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> cue https://xkcd.com/1205/
2023-08-17 19:41:07 +0200 <dolio> Personally this is my reason for not caring about P=NP. I think even if it gets solved, it will probably make no difference.
2023-08-17 19:41:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> probably
2023-08-17 19:41:29 +0200 <monochrom> There is a rocket equation somewhere there :)
2023-08-17 19:41:30 +0200 <dolio> Even if the solution is P=NP.
2023-08-17 19:42:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> I mean, P != NP wouldn't have devastating consequences at all because that's basically what we're all assuming as we go on
2023-08-17 19:45:14 +0200simikando(~simikando@bband-dyn179.95-103-254.t-com.sk)
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2023-08-17 19:46:59 +0200 <monochrom> P vs NP can be seen as a proxy to interesting problems. The general arc is asking how much difference there is between determinism and nondeterminism, or finding a witness vs checking a witness.
2023-08-17 19:47:52 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Quit: sm)
2023-08-17 19:48:09 +0200 <monochrom> It may be an impractical question (even the general arc). But it's an interesting math question. That's why it is a math institute that offers a prize, not an engineering institute, not IEEE, not even ACM. :)
2023-08-17 19:48:57 +0200codaraxis(~codaraxis@user/codaraxis)
2023-08-17 19:49:45 +0200 <EvanR> yes log time is blazing, linear time is fast, and quadratic is merely efficient. Just nested loop over array in C++ and stop worrying
2023-08-17 19:50:07 +0200 <EvanR> since everything gains a log factor in haskell we care more about the complexity
2023-08-17 19:50:11 +0200BigKozlowski(~BigKozlow@84.21.165.226)
2023-08-17 19:51:33 +0200 <dolio> The problem isn't asking about how two sorts of problems relate. The problem is the threshold for accepting them as equivalent.
2023-08-17 19:51:55 +0200coot(~coot@89-69-206-216.dynamic.chello.pl) (Quit: coot)
2023-08-17 19:52:56 +0200kupi_(uid212005@id-212005.hampstead.irccloud.com)
2023-08-17 19:55:16 +0200 <exarkun> everything gains a log factor in haskell?
2023-08-17 19:55:27 +0200 <monochrom> At this point, even with that very lousy (or generous?) threshold, we haven't figured it out yet. Using a much better threshold is going to be even much harder.
2023-08-17 19:56:00 +0200 <monochrom> It's a proxy. It's a stepping stone. Of course there will be future work asking better questions.
2023-08-17 19:56:07 +0200shapr(~user@2600:1700:c640:3100:815d:b617:2dfd:f3ae)
2023-08-17 19:56:18 +0200 <EvanR> yeah because you used a tree (log time operations (not really!)) instead of an array which is constant time (not really!)
2023-08-17 19:56:48 +0200 <exarkun> ah ok
2023-08-17 19:57:17 +0200 <monochrom> Perhaps "everything" is an exaggeration but compare "I'm in Perl/Python I use hash table" vs "I'm in Haskell I use BST".
2023-08-17 19:57:33 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-08-17 19:57:42 +0200 <EvanR> (IntMap's operations have a maximum, making it constant time. Arrays exist within the tree-like memory hierarchy, making them log time)
2023-08-17 19:57:55 +0200 <exarkun> I didn't see that it was about application-level choice of data structures / algorithms, rather than something intrinsic about, say, ghc's runtime execution model.
2023-08-17 19:58:06 +0200 <monochrom> And with that, "gain a log factor" means improving a linear factor to a log factor. >:D (Why else would we say "gain" heh)
2023-08-17 19:58:16 +0200 <EvanR> lol
2023-08-17 20:00:48 +0200billchenchina(~billchenc@2a0c:b641:7a2:320:ee3e:47ca:6070:d71a) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-08-17 20:01:35 +0200 <monochrom> OK I can see that we can be pessimistic that once P vs NP is settled, the fad is gone and no one actually works on the better follow-up questions.
2023-08-17 20:02:10 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 20:03:04 +0200 <monochrom> Oh well, I have had much wine this week, and enjoyed the England vs Australia match yesterday, and happy that England won, so this is why I am not the normal cynical self. >:)
2023-08-17 20:03:45 +0200BigKozlowski(~BigKozlow@84.21.165.226) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-17 20:05:34 +0200 <shapr> monochrom: shocking!
2023-08-17 20:05:34 +0200yoyofreeman(~yoyofreem@47.254.237.126)
2023-08-17 20:06:36 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.1)
2023-08-17 20:09:04 +0200BigKozlowski(~BigKozlow@84.21.165.226)
2023-08-17 20:09:16 +0200 <dolio> I mainly don't expect any amount of further work to yield a general purpose solution that would actually be 'efficient' in real terms.
2023-08-17 20:10:20 +0200 <dolio> Since my suspicion is that if P=NP, people haven't figured out how because it's such an expensive algorithm that no one would look for it.
2023-08-17 20:10:59 +0200 <monochrom> That's an interesting angle.
2023-08-17 20:12:30 +0200 <geekosaur> I've suspected the same, actually
2023-08-17 20:13:21 +0200BigKozlowski(~BigKozlow@84.21.165.226) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 20:14:23 +0200simikando(~simikando@bband-dyn179.95-103-254.t-com.sk) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2023-08-17 20:22:17 +0200 <dolio> Also, it's of course tempting to think, 'if it were the case, then the algorithm would have some low degree complexity, not some arbitrary, very large degree." But then there are examples of mathematical problems that defy that sort of logic.
2023-08-17 20:29:42 +0200merijn(~merijn@83.128.129.88)
2023-08-17 20:30:18 +0200kupi_(uid212005@id-212005.hampstead.irccloud.com) ()
2023-08-17 20:30:27 +0200simikando(~simikando@bband-dyn179.95-103-254.t-com.sk)
2023-08-17 20:30:40 +0200kupi_(uid212005@id-212005.hampstead.irccloud.com)
2023-08-17 20:31:24 +0200kupi_(uid212005@id-212005.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Client Quit)
2023-08-17 20:32:12 +0200zer0bitz_(~zer0bitz@user/zer0bitz)
2023-08-17 20:32:22 +0200kupi(uid212005@2a03:5180:f:4::3:3c25)
2023-08-17 20:32:37 +0200 <dolio> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=851U557j6HE
2023-08-17 20:32:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> ah good old Borwein
2023-08-17 20:33:04 +0200 <monochrom> Oh, that one, heh.
2023-08-17 20:33:14 +0200 <[exa]> ah good old real numbers, the source of infinite complexities
2023-08-17 20:33:46 +0200 <monochrom> Oh don't expect that countable ordinals are any simpler!
2023-08-17 20:33:53 +0200slack1256(~slack1256@186.11.77.140)
2023-08-17 20:34:06 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-08-17 20:34:11 +0200danza_(~francesco@151.19.237.213)
2023-08-17 20:34:33 +0200 <[exa]> :]
2023-08-17 20:35:00 +0200zer0bitz(~zer0bitz@user/zer0bitz) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-17 20:35:59 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-08-17 20:36:20 +0200danza(~francesco@151.57.224.77) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 20:36:26 +0200BigKozlowski(~BigKozlow@84.21.165.226)
2023-08-17 20:42:35 +0200BigKozlowski(~BigKozlow@84.21.165.226) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 20:49:30 +0200cptaffe(~cptaffe@99-47-99-155.lightspeed.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net)
2023-08-17 20:51:52 +0200shapr(~user@2600:1700:c640:3100:815d:b617:2dfd:f3ae) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-17 20:52:05 +0200shapr(~user@2600:1700:c640:3100:5224:a1de:7675:f5c0)
2023-08-17 20:52:56 +0200Square(~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-08-17 20:53:54 +0200cptaffe(~cptaffe@99-47-99-155.lightspeed.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-17 20:55:51 +0200simikando(~simikando@bband-dyn179.95-103-254.t-com.sk) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 20:59:02 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-08-17 21:00:56 +0200BigKozlowski(~BigKozlow@84.21.165.226)
2023-08-17 21:01:50 +0200coot(~coot@89-69-206-216.dynamic.chello.pl)
2023-08-17 21:02:36 +0200merijn(~merijn@83.128.129.88) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-08-17 21:15:24 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8)
2023-08-17 21:16:08 +0200addem(~addem@2600:1700:1066:2a10:d69c:2d7b:78f3:9218) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-17 21:16:28 +0200 <stefan-_> is it possible to mutate an xml data structure in-place, e.g. with HXT?
2023-08-17 21:16:56 +0200 <monochrom> No.
2023-08-17 21:17:20 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2023-08-17 21:17:40 +0200[exa]wildly imagines a XML tree made of IORefs
2023-08-17 21:18:41 +0200 <int-e> "XML data structure"
2023-08-17 21:18:45 +0200int-eweeps a bit
2023-08-17 21:19:11 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net)
2023-08-17 21:20:37 +0200 <monochrom> xmas data structure anyone? :)
2023-08-17 21:20:43 +0200 <int-e> (I can think of a dozen interpretations, all horrible.)
2023-08-17 21:20:44 +0200 <mauke> char*, in a notation borrowed from kleene
2023-08-17 21:20:56 +0200 <[exa]> charrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
2023-08-17 21:21:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> quiz question: GHC inserts Haskell string literals directly as C-strings into Core; it's actually _not_ a list of characters, it's an UTF-8 buffer. For example: https://play.haskell.org/saved/oL7xxdCn . C-strings are \NUL-terminated. Before trying, try to guess what GHC does when you write "\NUL" in your Haskell source
2023-08-17 21:21:14 +0200 <monochrom> Ugh please don't char my xmas tree or xml tree!
2023-08-17 21:22:04 +0200 <[exa]> tomsmeding: please no
2023-08-17 21:22:07 +0200 <int-e> tomsmeding: I've seen that
2023-08-17 21:22:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> it's actually kind of clever
2023-08-17 21:22:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> but also super ugly :D
2023-08-17 21:22:42 +0200 <mauke> I know how vim handles NULs ...
2023-08-17 21:22:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> this is... better, I guess
2023-08-17 21:22:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-17 21:23:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> vim's handling annoys me every single time I run into it (not often)
2023-08-17 21:23:20 +0200 <int-e> should be 0xC0x80
2023-08-17 21:23:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> extra 0 in the middle
2023-08-17 21:23:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> but yes
2023-08-17 21:23:50 +0200 <int-e> err, yes
2023-08-17 21:23:59 +0200 <mauke> ah, java-style modified utf-8
2023-08-17 21:24:17 +0200 <tomsmeding> no, in java unicode literal desugaring happens before parsing
2023-08-17 21:24:32 +0200 <mauke> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8#Modified_UTF-8
2023-08-17 21:24:45 +0200 <int-e> IIRC java has a 65535 *byte* limit on string literals (UTF-8)
2023-08-17 21:24:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/27h6cLbI
2023-08-17 21:25:20 +0200 <[exa]> wait how come that decodes back to NUL?
2023-08-17 21:25:33 +0200 <mauke> overlong encoding
2023-08-17 21:25:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> [exa]: that java thing? It doesn't, that's a "
2023-08-17 21:26:01 +0200 <tomsmeding> on the \xc0\x80, yeah that's UTF8 for (11)00 0000 (10)00 0000, i.e. 00 0000 00 0000, i.e. 0x000
2023-08-17 21:26:01 +0200 <[exa]> no, I mean the 11000000_10000000 in haskell string
2023-08-17 21:26:10 +0200 <[exa]> nope that's 0x80
2023-08-17 21:26:19 +0200 <mauke> that's 11 zero bits of payload
2023-08-17 21:26:31 +0200 <mauke> you're only supposed to use 7
2023-08-17 21:26:39 +0200 <[exa]> yap, and 2-byte coding space starts at 0x80
2023-08-17 21:26:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> mauke: TIL
2023-08-17 21:27:00 +0200 <int-e> [exa]: But it uses \0xC2\0x00 for 0x80
2023-08-17 21:27:04 +0200 <mauke> but if you use overlong encodings, you can spend more bytes to encode shorter characters
2023-08-17 21:27:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> [exa]: hence "overlong"
2023-08-17 21:27:10 +0200 <int-e> All the bits are encoded.
2023-08-17 21:27:25 +0200 <int-e> uhm
2023-08-17 21:27:30 +0200 <monochrom> Hahaha WTF-8 is a great name.
2023-08-17 21:27:31 +0200 <int-e> \0xC2\0x80
2023-08-17 21:27:54 +0200 <int-e> (the other kind of typing error)
2023-08-17 21:27:57 +0200 <[exa]> ok good /me relearns utf8
2023-08-17 21:28:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> \xc2\x80 -> (11)00 0010 (10)00 0000 -> 0000 1000 0000 -> 0x080
2023-08-17 21:28:11 +0200troydm(~troydm@user/troydm)
2023-08-17 21:28:21 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-17 21:28:35 +0200davros1TheGreatHealer
2023-08-17 21:28:37 +0200 <tomsmeding> \xf0\x80\x80\x80 -> \NUL
2023-08-17 21:31:52 +0200arthurvl(~arthurvl@2a02:a469:f5e2:1:83d2:ca43:57a2:dc81)
2023-08-17 21:33:57 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.90.224) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-08-17 21:34:06 +0200 <[exa]> as always I underestimated redundancy
2023-08-17 21:34:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> makes decoding nice and simple though
2023-08-17 21:34:37 +0200 <int-e> the power of redundancy is the power of redundancy is the power of redundancy
2023-08-17 21:34:42 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.90.224)
2023-08-17 21:34:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> no that's just recursion
2023-08-17 21:34:57 +0200 <mauke> red-black undancy
2023-08-17 21:35:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> mauke: that was redundant
2023-08-17 21:35:39 +0200TheGreatHealerdavros1
2023-08-17 21:35:52 +0200ulysses4ever(~artem@2607:fb91:2fa3:58e8:f474:e3f8:9806:671)
2023-08-17 21:35:52 +0200 <monochrom> Hey don't mock redundancy, it's basically the only solution to reliability.
2023-08-17 21:36:28 +0200 <mauke> yes, we have not yet found a way to completely abolish reliability
2023-08-17 21:37:05 +0200ft(~ft@p3e9bc175.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-08-17 21:37:13 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2023-08-17 21:38:08 +0200 <monochrom> I wonder if I can help by starting to teach datagram sockets and omit stream sockets.
2023-08-17 21:38:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> no, you just need to suggest using machine learning to design CPUs
2023-08-17 21:38:40 +0200 <mauke> I wish I understood datagram sockets
2023-08-17 21:38:59 +0200 <mauke> or rather, I wish the socket functions had good documentation
2023-08-17 21:39:02 +0200 <monochrom> Because my students have already done the rest: Never checking for errors.
2023-08-17 21:40:37 +0200artem(~artem@2607:fb91:2fa3:58e8:f474:e3f8:9806:671)
2023-08-17 21:40:40 +0200 <[exa]> monochrom: writing good networking code is way above the competency of 99.9% students I ever saw
2023-08-17 21:40:41 +0200ulysses4ever(~artem@2607:fb91:2fa3:58e8:f474:e3f8:9806:671) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-08-17 21:41:27 +0200 <[exa]> people just need to fail miserably on "can't write to this socket right now" before they get the message
2023-08-17 21:41:37 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-08-17 21:41:41 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 21:41:58 +0200 <monochrom> Um my students are way below that.
2023-08-17 21:42:08 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Client Quit)
2023-08-17 21:42:33 +0200 <monochrom> They're at the level of "if I call read(fd, buf, 100) then I really get 100 bytes, no need to check return value"
2023-08-17 21:43:14 +0200 <[exa]> mauke: anything specific? the most stumping thing with UDP and berkeley sockets is that it can sneakily remember the peer address from you, otherwise sendto&recvfrom should just work, no?
2023-08-17 21:43:39 +0200 <[exa]> monochrom: ah yeah the write() problems are already after many iterations :D
2023-08-17 21:44:10 +0200 <[exa]> also "safety close() in destructor is OK, no hangs"
2023-08-17 21:44:38 +0200 <monochrom> Hrm, what should I do instead in the destructor then?
2023-08-17 21:45:20 +0200 <[exa]> well in this case throw the fd to the safe garbage pile of stuff that should get closed
2023-08-17 21:46:23 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-08-17 21:49:27 +0200simikando(~simikando@bband-dyn179.95-103-254.t-com.sk)
2023-08-17 21:51:43 +0200Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus)
2023-08-17 21:52:10 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:c463:2a1:afdf:1815) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-17 21:53:10 +0200 <mauke> [exa]: what happens if I call read(fermat, buf, sizeof buf), but the buffer is too small to contain the incoming datagram?
2023-08-17 21:56:15 +0200 <[exa]> mauke: this is usually described in recv() docs, I think recvfrom has a note on this
2023-08-17 21:56:49 +0200 <exarkun> I thought Haskell was a high-level programming language concerned with robust, widely-applicable abstractions.
2023-08-17 21:57:01 +0200 <exarkun> Why is anybody calling `recv`
2023-08-17 21:57:14 +0200idgaen(~idgaen@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.2)
2023-08-17 21:57:34 +0200 <mauke> [exa]: that's another thing. I don't understand why send/recv exist when we have write/read
2023-08-17 21:58:24 +0200 <[exa]> mauke: ah ok actually it is `man 7 udp`
2023-08-17 21:58:27 +0200 <mauke> "If a message is too long to fit in the supplied buffer, excess bytes may be discarded depending on the type of socket the message is received from." <- what does that even mean
2023-08-17 21:58:32 +0200 <mauke> that's not a specification
2023-08-17 21:59:11 +0200 <[exa]> mauke: read() and write() are not concerned about addresses, recv/send are there to work with the address semantics
2023-08-17 21:59:26 +0200 <[exa]> mauke: yeah, the "depending on the type of socket" is the `man 7 udp` one
2023-08-17 21:59:49 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net)
2023-08-17 22:00:21 +0200 <mauke> [exa]: "when it is bigger, the packet is truncated and the MSG_TRUNC flag is set." <- still not a specification
2023-08-17 22:00:29 +0200 <mauke> also, MSG_TRUNC is not mention again in that man page
2023-08-17 22:00:37 +0200 <mauke> wtf is this
2023-08-17 22:01:03 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-17 22:01:21 +0200 <[exa]> mauke: a polite way to say "don't rely on anything"
2023-08-17 22:01:42 +0200 <int-e> exarkun: some people have to build those abstractions
2023-08-17 22:01:57 +0200 <mauke> no, seriously
2023-08-17 22:01:59 +0200 <[exa]> mauke: it really only specifies what you can rely on, the rest was kicked out of the documentation by angry user mob :]
2023-08-17 22:02:06 +0200 <mauke> what does it mean to "set the MSG_TRUNC flag"?
2023-08-17 22:02:28 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2023-08-17 22:03:00 +0200 <int-e> recv() has a flags argument; MSG_TRUNC is one of the flags you can set
2023-08-17 22:03:31 +0200Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: Tschüss)
2023-08-17 22:03:49 +0200 <[exa]> this one you actually receive, via struct cmsghdr (back in man recv)
2023-08-17 22:03:58 +0200 <int-e> (seems to be Linux-specific)
2023-08-17 22:04:03 +0200arahael(~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-08-17 22:04:07 +0200 <mauke> int-e: that's an input flag, not an output flag
2023-08-17 22:04:31 +0200 <int-e> I'm not sure where in this rabbit hole you currently are exactly
2023-08-17 22:04:39 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2023-08-17 22:04:49 +0200 <[exa]> mauke: let's go to offtopic I guess :]
2023-08-17 22:04:52 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-08-17 22:04:53 +0200 <int-e> I'm in `man 2 recv` which fits some of the context but not all.
2023-08-17 22:05:31 +0200 <[exa]> the problem of recv is that it's super overloaded for all the weird protocols that have been over the internet in the last 40 years or so, so it looks like that
2023-08-17 22:05:55 +0200Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea)
2023-08-17 22:06:23 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx)
2023-08-17 22:06:58 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-08-17 22:08:48 +0200_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Quit: _ht)
2023-08-17 22:09:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> [exa]: #haskell is the offtopic channel, #haskell-offtopic is for ontopic things
2023-08-17 22:10:16 +0200mima(~mmh@net-93-67-213-242.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
2023-08-17 22:10:58 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-08-17 22:15:08 +0200artem(~artem@2607:fb91:2fa3:58e8:f474:e3f8:9806:671) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2023-08-17 22:15:37 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2023-08-17 22:22:56 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 22:22:57 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
2023-08-17 22:24:04 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@116.255.1.151)
2023-08-17 22:24:05 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@116.255.1.151) (Changing host)
2023-08-17 22:24:05 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego)
2023-08-17 22:24:22 +0200 <monochrom> exarkun: We are looking for ways to abolish reliability. :)
2023-08-17 22:26:25 +0200cptaffe(~cptaffe@99-47-99-155.lightspeed.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net)
2023-08-17 22:31:42 +0200cptaffe(~cptaffe@99-47-99-155.lightspeed.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-08-17 22:32:29 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-08-17 22:32:40 +0200infinity0(~infinity0@pwned.gg) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2023-08-17 22:33:21 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.90.224) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 22:33:28 +0200infinity0(~infinity0@pwned.gg)
2023-08-17 22:33:59 +0200thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.90.224)
2023-08-17 22:35:12 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8)
2023-08-17 22:35:27 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2023-08-17 22:35:32 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8) (Client Quit)
2023-08-17 22:36:24 +0200 <exarkun> int-e: I'm surprised people are building them in 2023 :)
2023-08-17 22:42:43 +0200kupi(uid212005@2a03:5180:f:4::3:3c25) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2023-08-17 22:42:55 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8)
2023-08-17 22:43:20 +0200infinity0_(~infinity0@pwned.gg)
2023-08-17 22:43:20 +0200infinity0Guest4380
2023-08-17 22:43:20 +0200Guest4380(~infinity0@pwned.gg) (Killed (mercury.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services)))
2023-08-17 22:43:20 +0200infinity0_infinity0
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2023-08-17 22:52:39 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:c463:2a1:afdf:1815)
2023-08-17 22:53:41 +0200NewtonTrendy(uid282092@user/bopqod)
2023-08-17 22:56:09 +0200titibandit(~titibandi@user/titibandit)
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2023-08-17 23:03:21 +0200jonathan_(~jonathan@193.203.13.28) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2023-08-17 23:05:03 +0200titibandit(~titibandi@user/titibandit)
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2023-08-17 23:10:42 +0200anselmschueler(~anselmsch@user/schuelermine)
2023-08-17 23:12:59 +0200jargon(~jargon@174.22.213.62)
2023-08-17 23:14:50 +0200 <NewtonTrendy> whats out there regarding haskell and llms?
2023-08-17 23:15:22 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 23:16:33 +0200coot(~coot@89-69-206-216.dynamic.chello.pl) (Quit: coot)
2023-08-17 23:20:30 +0200misterfish(~misterfis@84-53-85-146.bbserv.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-08-17 23:21:25 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-08-17 23:24:15 +0200titibandit(~titibandi@user/titibandit) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2023-08-17 23:27:57 +0200 <dminuoso> mauke: There is no such strict requirement about unique addresses as far as I know.
2023-08-17 23:29:27 +0200anselmschueler(~anselmsch@user/schuelermine) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-08-17 23:31:49 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-08-17 23:33:05 +0200anselmschueler(~anselmsch@user/schuelermine)
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2023-08-17 23:39:13 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@23-93-74-212.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)
2023-08-17 23:39:53 +0200bratwurst(~blaadsfa@2604:3d09:207f:f650:216:3eff:fe5a:a1f8)
2023-08-17 23:47:03 +0200cptaffe(~cptaffe@99-47-99-155.lightspeed.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net)
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2023-08-17 23:57:17 +0200shapr(~user@2600:1700:c640:3100:14c6:21b5:30f8:7412)