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2023/07/10

2023-07-10 00:01:37 +0200 <EvanR> don't confuse happens first (evaluates first?) with grouping
2023-07-10 00:02:08 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2023-07-10 00:02:13 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah.
2023-07-10 00:02:28 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:21c:4000:5bf9:6515:c030:57b7)
2023-07-10 00:02:29 +0200 <monochrom> > False && (((((undefined && undefined)))))
2023-07-10 00:02:30 +0200 <lambdabot> False
2023-07-10 00:02:48 +0200 <monochrom> 5 parentheses to emphasize "do this first!" and it doesn't happen.
2023-07-10 00:03:50 +0200johnw(~johnw@69.62.242.138)
2023-07-10 00:07:44 +0200euandreh(~Thunderbi@189.6.18.7)
2023-07-10 00:07:47 +0200nick3(~nick@2600:8807:9084:7800:156f:70d2:8216:3372) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2023-07-10 00:08:01 +0200 <monochrom> In "func arg1 arg2", func happens first, to resolve which function we're even talking about.
2023-07-10 00:08:19 +0200 <monochrom> When happens next is up to what the function says.
2023-07-10 00:08:20 +0200 <probie> We need "do this first" parens
2023-07-10 00:08:57 +0200 <monochrom> So-called "arg1 ++ arg2" is just (++) arg1 arg2, i.e., (++) is func.
2023-07-10 00:09:24 +0200 <EvanR> !(error "1") + !(error "2")
2023-07-10 00:09:30 +0200 <EvanR> do them both first
2023-07-10 00:09:36 +0200 <monochrom> We kind of have seq and $! for "do this first". Although...
2023-07-10 00:09:45 +0200mmhat(~mmh@p200300f1c731a3dfee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-07-10 00:09:54 +0200 <EvanR> the answer is Exception: 12
2023-07-10 00:10:08 +0200 <probie> Yeah, but I mean something like `f x ⟦y⟧` reducing to `let y' = y in seq y' (f x y')`
2023-07-10 00:10:42 +0200 <EvanR> f ⟦x⟧ ⟦y⟧ -- xD
2023-07-10 00:10:53 +0200 <probie> oh noes
2023-07-10 00:11:05 +0200 <monochrom> f x ⟦y⟧ = f x $! y
2023-07-10 00:11:17 +0200 <EvanR> we need additional syntax to disambiguate which do this first parentheses takes precedence
2023-07-10 00:11:33 +0200 <monochrom> The rare case when I support "use $! to get rid of do-this-first parens" :)
2023-07-10 00:12:45 +0200hugo(znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se)
2023-07-10 00:13:29 +0200 <EvanR> GHC: "don't tell me what to do first"
2023-07-10 00:14:16 +0200 <probie> sure, but that's not good enough for `f ⟦x⟧ y`. Re: we need to disambiguate.. - I've got this `f ⟦x⟧₁ ⟦y⟧₂` just require subscripts if more than one occurs within an expression
2023-07-10 00:14:31 +0200 <EvanR> GHC: your human brain can barely comprehend the time continuum
2023-07-10 00:14:56 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:21c:4000:5bf9:6515:c030:57b7) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-07-10 00:15:12 +0200 <monochrom> Is it OK if I also ask for subscripts allowing arbitrary expressions so the order is unknown until run time?
2023-07-10 00:15:28 +0200 <EvanR> probie, imperative programming is quietly chuckling at these features
2023-07-10 00:15:28 +0200 <Guest72> I think of two operators "infixr 3 !" and "infixl 4 !!". In "x ! y !! z" ! wants to group "x ! (y !! z)" because is infixR and !! wants to group "(x ! y) !! z" because is infixL but 4 is higher then it becomes "(x ! y) !! z". Is correct?
2023-07-10 00:16:06 +0200 <monochrom> 3 and 4 trumps r and l
2023-07-10 00:16:17 +0200 <Guest72> ok
2023-07-10 00:16:24 +0200 <geekosaur> f [x]₍ₓ₊₁₎
2023-07-10 00:17:08 +0200 <monochrom> Cantor and Gödel would love to use that for diagonalization...
2023-07-10 00:17:22 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:21c:4000:5bf9:6515:c030:57b7)
2023-07-10 00:17:39 +0200 <EvanR> r and l only apply if you have a bunch of operators with the same precedence in a row
2023-07-10 00:17:51 +0200 <EvanR> and it's all l or all r, not mixed
2023-07-10 00:18:30 +0200 <ski> bratwurst : `handleEvent :: a -> c -> (b, c)' looks reminiscent of (synchronous) stream processors (and Fudgets)
2023-07-10 00:19:08 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com)
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2023-07-10 00:19:08 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2023-07-10 00:20:29 +0200shailangsa(~shailangs@host86-186-196-224.range86-186.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-07-10 00:21:17 +0200 <EvanR> probie, be bold. conflicting do this first parenthese literally means do them in parallel
2023-07-10 00:21:18 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-07-10 00:22:33 +0200 <Guest72> EvanR: Like "1 : [2..3] ++ [4]" where : and ++ are all precedence 5 and r?
2023-07-10 00:23:01 +0200 <EvanR> yeah
2023-07-10 00:23:04 +0200 <Guest72> ok!
2023-07-10 00:23:16 +0200mmhat(~mmh@p200300f1c731a302ee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-07-10 00:24:35 +0200 <EvanR> > 1 : [2] ++ 3 : [4] ++ 5 : [6]
2023-07-10 00:24:36 +0200 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6]
2023-07-10 00:24:54 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:21c:4000:5bf9:6515:c030:57b7) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-07-10 00:25:21 +0200 <Guest72> good example!
2023-07-10 00:25:43 +0200maxs(~maxs@31.43.157.218)
2023-07-10 00:27:03 +0200hueso(~root@user/hueso) (Quit: hueso)
2023-07-10 00:28:51 +0200hueso(~root@user/hueso)
2023-07-10 00:35:10 +0200 <EvanR> stackoverflow has a remark As I understand it, a "Skolem variable" is a variable which does not match any other variable, including itself.
2023-07-10 00:35:31 +0200 <EvanR> how would any variable not match itself
2023-07-10 00:35:53 +0200 <dsal> Somedays I don't feel like myself.
2023-07-10 00:35:54 +0200 <ski> should be s/including/except/
2023-07-10 00:36:02 +0200hueso(~root@user/hueso) (Quit: hueso)
2023-07-10 00:36:20 +0200 <EvanR> that makes more sense
2023-07-10 00:36:26 +0200delYsid(~user@user/delYsid) (ERC 5.6-git (IRC client for GNU Emacs 30.0.50))
2023-07-10 00:36:44 +0200nick3(~nick@2600:8807:9084:7800:156f:70d2:8216:3372)
2023-07-10 00:36:57 +0200 <ski> (or .. i guess, one could interpret "other" as meaning distinct, so that "including itself" is a contradictory assumption, and then ex falso quodlibet ..)
2023-07-10 00:37:10 +0200 <EvanR> "Seville variable" is a variable which matches any variable that does not match itself?
2023-07-10 00:37:12 +0200 <probie> > let x = 1/(0 :: Double) in x == x
2023-07-10 00:37:13 +0200 <lambdabot> True
2023-07-10 00:37:14 +0200takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2023-07-10 00:37:35 +0200 <probie> > let x = sqrt (-1) in x == x
2023-07-10 00:37:36 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2023-07-10 00:37:37 +0200 <lambdabot> False
2023-07-10 00:37:39 +0200 <ski> "Seville" ?
2023-07-10 00:37:43 +0200 <EvanR> nvm
2023-07-10 00:37:51 +0200hueso(~root@user/hueso)
2023-07-10 00:38:09 +0200geekosaurgiggled
2023-07-10 00:38:10 +0200 <ski> EvanR : i've seen "eigenvariable" used as an altenative term for "skolem constant/function", fwiw
2023-07-10 00:38:27 +0200 <monochrom> Why should a skolem variable not match itself?
2023-07-10 00:38:32 +0200 <geekosaur> the variable of Seville
2023-07-10 00:38:50 +0200 <ski> oh .. right, the barber
2023-07-10 00:39:16 +0200 <monochrom> sqrt (-1) is NaN.
2023-07-10 00:39:26 +0200 <monochrom> unless you go Complex Double.
2023-07-10 00:39:37 +0200 <ski> .. clearly we need NaNs at the type level
2023-07-10 00:39:41 +0200 <EvanR> if you call it an eigenvariable I immediately start paying attention because it sounds important and powerful
2023-07-10 00:39:55 +0200 <probie> Which made x a variable which did not match (where match is `==`) any other variable, including itself
2023-07-10 00:39:55 +0200 <EvanR> for some reason
2023-07-10 00:40:14 +0200 <monochrom> No wonder they also talk about diagonalization with eigen things...
2023-07-10 00:40:51 +0200 <probie> I just initially forgot that `1/0` was infinity and not NaN
2023-07-10 00:41:11 +0200 <EvanR> > 1/0
2023-07-10 00:41:12 +0200 <lambdabot> Infinity
2023-07-10 00:41:38 +0200 <c_wraith> > 0/0
2023-07-10 00:41:39 +0200 <lambdabot> NaN
2023-07-10 00:41:43 +0200 <EvanR> > 1/0 - 1/0
2023-07-10 00:41:44 +0200 <lambdabot> NaN
2023-07-10 00:42:10 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@104-55-37-220.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2023-07-10 00:42:35 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2023-07-10 00:42:40 +0200 <nyc> monochrom: Do you go back to EfNet #math in the 90's?
2023-07-10 00:44:37 +0200 <ski> > (comparing recip <*> negate) 0
2023-07-10 00:44:38 +0200 <lambdabot> GT
2023-07-10 00:44:42 +0200 <ski> > (compare <*> negate) 0
2023-07-10 00:44:44 +0200 <lambdabot> EQ
2023-07-10 00:45:08 +0200 <monochrom> nyc: No.
2023-07-10 00:47:39 +0200 <nyc> monochrom: How far back do I know you from? Early 2000's OFTC?
2023-07-10 00:49:30 +0200zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-07-10 00:49:36 +0200 <monochrom> I forgot.
2023-07-10 00:50:38 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 00:51:54 +0200zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00)
2023-07-10 00:52:24 +0200 <ski> nyc : hm, apparently i talked to you some, back in 2005
2023-07-10 00:53:32 +0200 <nyc> ski: There are people I occasionally talk to that I know from the 90's.
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2023-07-10 02:51:56 +0200Aditya(~Aditya@182.69.193.180)
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2023-07-10 02:52:54 +0200 <Aditya> Hi! I'm taking CIS 194 2013, and need some help in verifying my solution to homework 8. Would really appreciate any help I can get!
2023-07-10 02:52:55 +0200 <Aditya> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/14vf5fj/cis_194_need_help_in_homework_8/
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2023-07-10 03:01:47 +0200 <monochrom> Yes it's totally DP on a tree.
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2023-07-10 04:28:25 +0200DavSanchez(~davsanche@219.red-88-8-2.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
2023-07-10 04:28:47 +0200DavSanchez(~davsanche@219.red-88-8-2.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Client Quit)
2023-07-10 04:30:47 +0200Xe(~cadey@tailscale/xe)
2023-07-10 04:31:19 +0200mmhat(~mmh@p200300f1c731a302ee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.1)
2023-07-10 04:31:29 +0200 <bratwurst> so to model a widget with internal state using reactive-banana i could use accumB?
2023-07-10 04:32:03 +0200 <bratwurst> i don't know why i find this so hard. it seems so simple at first but when i get down to writing things it all falls apart
2023-07-10 04:33:09 +0200 <bratwurst> i have pseudocode at https://pastebin.com/DgPfsMV3
2023-07-10 04:34:08 +0200 <bratwurst> so instead of applyHandler i would use accumB
2023-07-10 04:34:21 +0200 <bratwurst> maybe i should just call it a night. my brain tired
2023-07-10 04:35:57 +0200lainon(~textual@c-98-54-78-2.hsd1.al.comcast.net) (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2023-07-10 07:23:47 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.193)
2023-07-10 07:25:38 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 07:26:43 +0200 <Inst__> is Vec.take equivalent to Vec.slice?
2023-07-10 07:26:51 +0200 <Axman6> what is Vec
2023-07-10 07:28:30 +0200 <Inst__> import qualified Data.Vector as Vec
2023-07-10 07:29:06 +0200 <Axman6> they're related, you can implement take using slice, but not the other way around (without drop)
2023-07-10 07:29:29 +0200 <Inst__> slice makes a promise of not copying the underlying vector
2023-07-10 07:29:33 +0200 <Inst__> but tbh it probably won't work if I tco it
2023-07-10 07:29:42 +0200 <Inst__> because it'll still pass the vector around which isn't what i want
2023-07-10 07:30:10 +0200 <Axman6> there's a function which expplicitly copies the data into a new vec of the right size IIRC
2023-07-10 07:30:28 +0200 <Axman6> possibly called copy
2023-07-10 07:30:49 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx)
2023-07-10 07:31:33 +0200 <Inst__> back to arguing with mr clojurian i guess
2023-07-10 07:31:54 +0200 <Inst__> interesting observation based on multiple data points: people really don't get where clauses, it screws with their heads
2023-07-10 07:32:09 +0200 <Axman6> hmm, maybe I am not remembering correctly, I might be thinking of bytrestring. copy for vector is slightly different
2023-07-10 07:32:35 +0200 <Inst__> the python and rust version updates array index variables
2023-07-10 07:33:30 +0200 <Axman6> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.13.0.0/docs/Data-Vector.html#v:force
2023-07-10 07:33:55 +0200 <Axman6> of course, because they love to break your programs by using mutation. we get to make that explicit using MVector
2023-07-10 07:34:30 +0200 <c_wraith> rust doesn't have one slice function. It has several, and the one you use depends on the ownership semantics you want, especially compared to ownership of the parent.
2023-07-10 07:35:36 +0200 <Inst__> i mean i have a haskell accum param version using index variables being mutated via accumulating parameter version
2023-07-10 07:35:56 +0200 <Inst__> *accumulating parameter recursion)
2023-07-10 07:36:08 +0200 <Axman6> I'm not sure what that means, but if you're doing a lot of updates to a vector, you definitewly want to be using the ST monad
2023-07-10 07:36:29 +0200 <Inst__> it' ssort of a toy example i'm arguing about, which mr clojure will never admit is more readable. The benefit is more, "where clauses are strange to conventional programmers"
2023-07-10 07:36:49 +0200 <Inst__> https://blog.logrocket.com/rust-vs-python-could-rust-replace-python/
2023-07-10 07:37:17 +0200 <Axman6> I think that is both nonsense, and superficial. it's not important and you shouldn't spend so much time trying to convince others they're wrong
2023-07-10 07:38:10 +0200 <Inst__> it's more of a research project, i.e, he's a contrarian by nature and forces me to reexamine my assumptions
2023-07-10 07:38:21 +0200 <Inst__> where clauses being strange I think is an important finding
2023-07-10 07:38:22 +0200 <monochrom> You simply shouldn't read blogs in the first place.
2023-07-10 07:38:28 +0200 <Axman6> if someone is so confused by such a simple concept as where clauses, then that's their problem. They make many functions much clearer, and can help a lot with the ideas of clean code
2023-07-10 07:38:44 +0200 <Inst__> i don't mean it as an assault on where clauses, i prefer and love them myself
2023-07-10 07:38:46 +0200 <Axman6> monochrom: even Don Stewart's? D: I learnt so much
2023-07-10 07:39:00 +0200 <Inst__> but the point is more, for a traditionally trained programmer, where clauses present a challenge
2023-07-10 07:39:11 +0200 <Inst__> because they're used to thinking sequentially
2023-07-10 07:39:19 +0200 <monochrom> Rare exceptions. "The exception proves the rule." >:)
2023-07-10 07:39:21 +0200 <Axman6> yes, as does declarative programming in general
2023-07-10 07:39:32 +0200 <Axman6> monochrom: phew
2023-07-10 07:39:52 +0200 <monochrom> Blogs are assumed garbage until proven golden.
2023-07-10 07:40:08 +0200 <monochrom> Likewise for generally all of social media, all of internet.
2023-07-10 07:40:24 +0200 <Inst__> i don't think that blog is useful, more, it was an opportunity to see how it'd look in Haskell, and potentially to benchmark vs Rust and Python with the toy examples
2023-07-10 07:40:29 +0200 <monochrom> There are a few exception gems. If you come across them, cool. The rest, skip.
2023-07-10 07:40:39 +0200Inst__Inst
2023-07-10 07:42:04 +0200 <monochrom> I have spent my young days going to Usenet telling people why they're wrong. Time to recognize that it is a data sink, most humans are broken.
2023-07-10 07:42:19 +0200 <Inst> but i guess the question is, when TCO is being applied, and you're cycling slices of a vector, is the vector copied every time, or are you just passing the array indices?
2023-07-10 07:42:59 +0200 <monochrom> And even now I'm bothering to say all this, only because I'm taking a break from creating a midterm test, having finished a fun question.
2023-07-10 07:43:03 +0200 <Inst> that is actually a productive and useful question; i.e, should we be passing array indices for this purpose, or does slice / take provide sufficient efficiency?
2023-07-10 07:43:07 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-07-10 07:43:23 +0200 <Axman6> it depends on what you're doing to the vector. if you use any "modification" functions that return a new vector, then yes it is copied, if not, no, it'll be passing around a single pointer
2023-07-10 07:44:11 +0200_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Quit: _ht)
2023-07-10 07:44:12 +0200 <Inst> so as long as it's pure slice, it's equivalent to passing the array indices around
2023-07-10 07:44:15 +0200 <Axman6> monochrom: I'd be interested to see the question, but I qould guess the liklihood of your students being here is high
2023-07-10 07:44:34 +0200 <monochrom> I went to the linked Data.Vector doc page and did a ctrl-F "copy". Basically all functions there specify whether they copy or not. I don't think there is any rocket science left in this.
2023-07-10 07:44:44 +0200 <Axman6> yes, slicing a vector allocates like four or five words
2023-07-10 07:45:11 +0200 <monochrom> Oooohhhh sometimes it is true that even if they see the question now they're still toasted. >:D
2023-07-10 07:46:06 +0200 <Inst> i really should stop using 4k monitor on 100% scaling
2023-07-10 07:46:17 +0200 <Axman6> Hopefully some in the class will find it fun though, I probably would've been one of those students back in the day. I (evidently) loved my first Haskell course
2023-07-10 07:46:40 +0200 <monochrom> That depends on whether it's 12-inch 4k or 120-inch 4k.
2023-07-10 07:46:49 +0200 <Inst> 17 inch
2023-07-10 07:46:51 +0200greentail(~greentail@2804:214:82da:807f:92f2:a5f9:1071:9b3a) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-07-10 07:47:20 +0200 <monochrom> That's like my 20th century CRT.
2023-07-10 07:47:55 +0200 <monochrom> I thought today's minimum is like 24-inch esp. for 4k.
2023-07-10 07:48:00 +0200 <Inst> i'm nerdy enough about screen ergonomics to fantasize about the day where laptops are replaced with a 23 inch flexscreen
2023-07-10 07:48:53 +0200 <monochrom> Perhaps switch to a VR headset.
2023-07-10 07:48:55 +0200 <Axman6> you can buy extra screens that attach to either side of your laptop's screen
2023-07-10 07:49:16 +0200neuroevolutus(~neuroevol@2001:ac8:9a:76::1e)
2023-07-10 07:49:25 +0200 <monochrom> Really? That is so clip-on. :)
2023-07-10 07:49:40 +0200 <Inst> thanks for blowing my mind
2023-07-10 07:49:52 +0200 <Inst> https://www.amazon.com/SOOMFON-Portable-Monitor-Extender-Display/
2023-07-10 07:50:34 +0200 <Axman6> Linux Tech Tips had a review of one a few weeks ago, that endedup looking like a much more reasonable product than you're initially expect
2023-07-10 07:53:55 +0200 <Inst> is there a connection between Lenovo and cool product ideas that never take off?
2023-07-10 07:54:08 +0200 <Inst> like, you used to be able to buy a thinkpad with an integrated second screen in the W700DS line
2023-07-10 07:55:07 +0200nick4(~nick@2600:8807:9084:7800:a561:1c80:7b95:a84)
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2023-07-10 07:59:56 +0200takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
2023-07-10 08:03:10 +0200trev(~trev@user/trev)
2023-07-10 08:04:37 +0200 <jackdk> "Linux Tech Tips" <- be fair, they did a vid on TempleOS too
2023-07-10 08:07:35 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f378113020857ee2821.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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2023-07-10 08:10:04 +0200 <nyc> There is some sort of problem with an inplace ghc and ghc-pkg check not passing.
2023-07-10 08:11:46 +0200Guest93(~Guest93@162-228-244-199.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net)
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2023-07-10 08:27:22 +0200Guest8058(~finn@176-151-21-224.abo.bbox.fr)
2023-07-10 08:27:49 +0200 <geekosaur> nyc, is that by any chance related to https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/23594 ?
2023-07-10 08:29:09 +0200 <nyc> I don't know, let me look.
2023-07-10 08:29:38 +0200 <geekosaur> (ticket title refers to aarch64 but I think it was found to be more general?)
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2023-07-10 08:30:44 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@haskell/developer/dibblego) (Excess Flood)
2023-07-10 08:30:52 +0200 <nyc> geekosaur: I'm trying to use an inplace ghc vs. a bindist.
2023-07-10 08:35:08 +0200dibblego(~dibblego@116-255-1-157.ip4.superloop.au)
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2023-07-10 09:06:25 +0200 <nyc> geekosaur: There are files missing in the ‘base-4.16.4.0’ package, doesn't look good.
2023-07-10 09:09:23 +0200 <Axman6> jackdk: uh, yes, Linus. They do quite a bit of content about open source os's, since they have so much data to store, they do a lot with the ones focused on chonky filesystems
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2023-07-10 12:34:05 +0200 <danse-nr3> would you say the haskell community is hype-resistant?
2023-07-10 12:36:55 +0200ripspin(~chatzilla@1.145.246.16)
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2023-07-10 12:56:44 +0200 <Inst> ummm, tbh, I'll stop criticizing the Haskell community, griping is often inaccurate and is not really helpful
2023-07-10 12:56:49 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2023-07-10 12:57:37 +0200 <Inst> griping isn't going to make the Haskell community all come together, fix Accelerate, get Brick working on Windows, implement dependent types into GHC within 2 years, get HaskTorch working within 2 years, etc
2023-07-10 12:58:14 +0200 <dminuoso> Before we get a fixed accelerate, brick on windows or dependent types... can I just have something THish with cross compilation first?
2023-07-10 12:58:46 +0200 <Inst> Brick on Windows, if you check Github, is actually coming along quite well
2023-07-10 12:59:05 +0200 <Inst> i'd give it another 6 months before beta version is ready
2023-07-10 12:59:33 +0200 <Inst> I popped up to ask about ArrayFire, since it got recommended by Gabriella Gonzalez
2023-07-10 12:59:48 +0200 <Inst> and it was updated recently on Hackage, is ArrayFire actually useful for ML tasks in Haskell?
2023-07-10 12:59:59 +0200 <Inst> What's the tradeoffs vs tensorflow / pytorch (implicitly hasktorch)?
2023-07-10 13:01:03 +0200Guest8058(~finn@176-151-21-224.abo.bbox.fr)
2023-07-10 13:06:48 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542)
2023-07-10 13:08:45 +0200 <delYsid> Wait, there is ongoing work to port Brick to Windows? Where can I donate?!
2023-07-10 13:12:52 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:4c9c:5689:ea96:76a1)
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2023-07-10 13:13:33 +0200elred(~root@user/elred)
2023-07-10 13:13:39 +0200 <elred> has anyone good with logic read the haskell road to logic, math and programming who'd consider it a good book?
2023-07-10 13:13:44 +0200danse-nr3(~francesco@151.43.244.23)
2023-07-10 13:14:28 +0200 <Inst> https://github.com/jtdaugherty/brick/issues/445
2023-07-10 13:14:40 +0200 <Inst> https://github.com/jtdaugherty/vty/issues/251
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2023-07-10 13:21:00 +0200 <danse-nr3> Inst, actually ... i did not mean to complain. Being hype-resistant is something positive to me
2023-07-10 13:21:30 +0200 <Inst> i mean i'd claim that Haskellers tend to be a bit hypeful, but the fact that the hipster community has moved onto Rust has helped
2023-07-10 13:22:25 +0200nate2(~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 13:23:12 +0200 <danse-nr3> XD
2023-07-10 13:29:11 +0200greentail(~greentail@189.40.91.203)
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2023-07-10 13:52:32 +0200 <Axman6> danse-nr3: the "avoid success at all costs" mantra has helped a lot. Most of us are quite happy for Haskell not to be the world's number one programming language, if people don't want to put the effort into learning it, that's their loss. Despite this, as a language it has been highly influential to other languages, and in many ways that's kind of the point of the language - to be a testbed for programming language research
2023-07-10 13:54:48 +0200delYsid(~user@user/delYsid) (ERC 5.6-git (IRC client for GNU Emacs 30.0.50))
2023-07-10 13:58:21 +0200jonathan(~jonathan@c83-252-3-92.bredband.tele2.se)
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2023-07-10 13:58:56 +0200danse-nr3(~francesco@151.57.243.172)
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2023-07-10 14:00:57 +0200 <jonathan> If I use servant-client to create tests for my servant API, will those tests catch api regressions? Asking because I can see two scenarios: 1) servant-client automatically updates to match servant api (including changes to the JSON), potentially "masking" regressions 2) Servant-client needs to be manually updated to match latest api, with tests breaking in test-time (discovering any breaking changes)
2023-07-10 14:01:30 +0200 <jonathan> (it might function in some other way, but I hope my question is clear enough)
2023-07-10 14:05:29 +0200rainbyte(~rainbyte@181.31.239.226)
2023-07-10 14:12:02 +0200 <danse-nr3> thanks Axman6 ... i hope haskell is mature enough that being a testbed is not its main point :P ... then it can be particularly suited to research, that is true, but being a test for other languages is an uncomfortable position to have
2023-07-10 14:12:29 +0200 <danse-nr3> jonathan, i think the client updates with the server, that is the point of servant. You might want to plan for interface versioning
2023-07-10 14:13:40 +0200mechap(~mechap@user/mechap)
2023-07-10 14:15:18 +0200 <jonathan> Right. I'm sitting on a codebase with a lot of autoerived from/to json instances, making changes to data types a potential api breakage. As such I want regression tests to guard against accidents. I asked my question to check whether servant-client can help with this :)
2023-07-10 14:15:43 +0200 <jonathan> I also think "pobably not", but I'll wait and see if someone knows for sure :)
2023-07-10 14:26:04 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2023-07-10 14:32:42 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f37a5880f011a21b87c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-07-10 14:36:21 +0200 <probie> Is there an easy way to check bounds? e.g. if I specify `foo >= 1.2 && < 1.3` is there a tool to try building my library against every version of foo on hackage that's within those bounds that cabal can produce a build plan for?
2023-07-10 14:36:25 +0200 <danse-nr3> jonathan, well if you have a separate package that depends on the former version of the data types, that could catch errors
2023-07-10 14:40:10 +0200 <jonathan> So move Api.hs and all the data types into a separate package, use it in both prod and tests, with versioning?
2023-07-10 14:43:22 +0200 <danse-nr3> it is just an idea. Maybe check how much effort it takes to spot one of those JSON errors with servant-client before ... you could work off another checkout of the repo
2023-07-10 14:43:34 +0200kimiamania6(~681cf57f@user/kimiamania) (Quit: PegeLinux)
2023-07-10 14:43:59 +0200 <danse-nr3> probie, i am not aware of any
2023-07-10 14:44:56 +0200kimiamania6(~681cf57f@user/kimiamania)
2023-07-10 14:53:14 +0200 <__monty__> probie: I think Hackage runs some form of dependency matrix check. Note that the combinatorial explosion makes that pretty much unfeasible pragmatically.
2023-07-10 14:55:52 +0200mechap(~mechap@user/mechap) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2023-07-10 15:01:39 +0200 <__monty__> probie: http://matrix.hackage.haskell.org/
2023-07-10 15:05:32 +0200heartburn(~gass@2a00:d880:3:1::b1e4:b241) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2023-07-10 15:06:17 +0200Aditya(~Aditya@2401:4900:1c33:e779:cc41:bf2:4e42:7c4c)
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2023-07-10 15:07:27 +0200Adityaaditya211935
2023-07-10 15:07:32 +0200 <aditya211935> Hi! I'm taking CIS 194 2013, and need some help in verifying my solution to homework 8. Would really appreciate any help I can get!
2023-07-10 15:07:32 +0200 <aditya211935> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/14vf5fj/cis_194_need_help_in_homework_8/
2023-07-10 15:07:50 +0200aditya211935aditya
2023-07-10 15:08:14 +0200adityaaditya211935
2023-07-10 15:08:18 +0200 <Inst> has anyone tried using arrayfire as a replacement for accelerate?
2023-07-10 15:14:13 +0200 <__monty__> probie: Well, that page isn't loading for me so it's probably not very useful. Here's the code that should be driving it https://github.com/haskell-CI/hackage-matrix-builder Might only be a matrix across GHC versions though. But maybe you can base something off of it.
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2023-07-10 16:00:23 +0200 <danse-nr3> Inst, not really, but are they not quite different tools? Accelerate seems to be in native haskell. Cool project by the way
2023-07-10 16:02:31 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-07-10 16:03:49 +0200 <Inst> accelerate the last i checked was broken for recent GHCs
2023-07-10 16:06:15 +0200 <geekosaur> accelerate has lots of backends, doesn't it?
2023-07-10 16:06:53 +0200falafel(~falafel@cpe-24-102-77-214.nyc.res.rr.com)
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2023-07-10 16:11:55 +0200 <danse-nr3> i think that there is another package for high dimensionality in haskell called repa
2023-07-10 16:13:32 +0200dmgk(~dmgk@user/dmgk) ()
2023-07-10 16:15:17 +0200buckwheatsuperpo(~buckwheat@209.122.211.192)
2023-07-10 16:16:08 +0200bontaq(~user@ool-45779b84.dyn.optonline.net)
2023-07-10 16:17:18 +0200 <danse-nr3> geekosaur, yes it seems to have a couple of different backends distributed as external package addons https://hackage.haskell.org/package/accelerate
2023-07-10 16:18:48 +0200 <Athas> I can't decide whether I think '--test-show-details=streaming' should be the default for 'cabal test'.
2023-07-10 16:19:06 +0200 <Athas> On the one hand, it feels good to see a bunch of succesful tests scroll by. On the other hand, I do associate lack of output with success.
2023-07-10 16:19:25 +0200buckwheatsuperpo(~buckwheat@209.122.211.192) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 16:20:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2023-07-10 16:22:53 +0200 <danse-nr3> yeah, that is a common pattern for command line tools and it helps a lot. I am not sure ... sounds like an improvement
2023-07-10 16:23:21 +0200 <Axman6> I'm a little scared; I made a pretty significant change to the ghc AArch64 backend, and the first time it compiled, all the tests passed D:
2023-07-10 16:24:51 +0200 <danse-nr3> type safety works! Nah probably it is all untested
2023-07-10 16:25:34 +0200 <Axman6> nah this is fundamental enough that things would segfault or produce invalid assembly if I got it really wrong
2023-07-10 16:27:25 +0200Guest55(~Guest55@p200300ef9728cc30ee453a171b87db59.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2023-07-10 16:29:55 +0200 <Athas> Axman6: you must have broken the test suite.
2023-07-10 16:30:04 +0200 <Athas> The test suite uses the AArch64 backend too, right?
2023-07-10 16:30:25 +0200 <Axman6> it's possible.. nah unliklely, I haven't written any tests (=
2023-07-10 16:35:21 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@2a05:5800:288:fd00:664b:f0ff:fe37:9ef) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-07-10 16:35:55 +0200buckwheatsuperpo(~buckwheat@209.122.211.192)
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2023-07-10 16:40:25 +0200 <zzz> self testing test suites <3
2023-07-10 16:40:26 +0200buckwheatsuperpo(~buckwheat@209.122.211.192) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-07-10 16:43:02 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2023-07-10 16:49:04 +0200 <Athas> I wonder how hunit is tested.
2023-07-10 16:49:38 +0200rainbyte(~rainbyte@181.31.239.226) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2023-07-10 16:54:03 +0200 <zzz> XD https://github.com/hspec/HUnit
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2023-07-10 20:29:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> Athas: I hate 'cabal test' with a passion
2023-07-10 20:30:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> I just 'cabal run' the test-suite and am happy that way
2023-07-10 20:30:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> not only is streaming useful to see progress and see early that things are stuck somewhere, or that you can cancel the test run because everything is failing
2023-07-10 20:31:01 +0200 <tomsmeding> and to not hvae to open a file to see test results after things failed, which misses colouring
2023-07-10 20:36:29 +0200misterfish(~misterfis@84-53-85-146.bbserv.nl)
2023-07-10 20:38:21 +0200ryantrinkle(~ryantrink@204.2.90.61) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-07-10 20:38:53 +0200 <Hecate> tomsmeding: I think the behaviour will be better in the next release, I've seen a PR in that direction
2023-07-10 20:40:45 +0200red-snai-(~snail@static.151.210.203.116.clients.your-server.de) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2023-07-10 20:41:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> Hecate: link, what's the behaviour change?
2023-07-10 20:41:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> or keyword
2023-07-10 20:42:17 +0200aditya211935(~aditya211@2401:4900:1c33:e779:cc41:bf2:4e42:7c4c)
2023-07-10 20:42:27 +0200 <mauke> does haskell have a standard testing protocol now?
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2023-07-10 20:54:15 +0200 <Hecate> https://github.com/haskell/cabal/pull/8942 tomsmeding
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2023-07-10 21:13:30 +0200 <chreekat> <Hecate> "https://github.com/haskell/cabal..." <- Hallelujah
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2023-07-10 21:23:00 +0200m1dnight(~christoph@78-22-4-67.access.telenet.be)
2023-07-10 21:24:45 +0200trev(~trev@user/trev) (Quit: trev)
2023-07-10 21:24:50 +0200aditya211935(~aditya211@2401:4900:1c33:e779:cc41:bf2:4e42:7c4c) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-07-10 21:24:51 +0200 <tomsmeding> \o/
2023-07-10 21:26:45 +0200jludwig(~justin@li657-110.members.linode.com) (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
2023-07-10 21:27:27 +0200ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Quit: ec)
2023-07-10 21:27:54 +0200ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2023-07-10 21:30:23 +0200m21it(~m21it@2800:ac:4021:c91e:57d4:3c1b:25c6:c66b)
2023-07-10 21:31:16 +0200danse-nr3(~francesco@151.43.255.148) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-07-10 21:31:21 +0200 <m21it> Is there some optic which is capable of creating keys like `x & at key ?~ val` but dealing with multiple keys at once like for example each is doing `x & each %~ (+1)`, so I want something like `x & ats keys ?~ val`?
2023-07-10 21:39:51 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@185.201.60.220) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-07-10 21:44:52 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.193) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-07-10 21:47:36 +0200 <Noinia> my hoogle-fu is failing me. Clearly something like this must exist in base somewhere instead of in some random 'extra' package:
2023-07-10 21:47:40 +0200 <Noinia> guard' b x = if b then empty else pure x :: Alternative f => Bool -> a -> f a
2023-07-10 21:47:53 +0200 <Noinia> any ideas?
2023-07-10 21:49:27 +0200 <Noinia> err, I guess I want if not b then emtpy, but whatever
2023-07-10 21:50:50 +0200 <probie> :t \b x -> x <$ guard b
2023-07-10 21:50:50 +0200 <lambdabot> Alternative f => Bool -> a -> f a
2023-07-10 21:50:56 +0200lainon(~textual@c-98-54-78-2.hsd1.al.comcast.net) (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-07-10 21:53:16 +0200qqq(~qqq@92.43.167.61)
2023-07-10 21:56:13 +0200 <Noinia> ah nice!
2023-07-10 21:57:01 +0200 <Noinia> Thanks!
2023-07-10 21:57:01 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@104-55-37-220.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-07-10 21:59:04 +0200 <probie> Noinia: I don't see it used with `guard` particularly often, but the idiom `x <$ someParser` pops up a lot when people using parsing libraries like parsec
2023-07-10 22:00:25 +0200greentail(~greentail@user/clcuc) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 22:02:08 +0200greentail(~greentail@2804:214:8110:943f:f26e:d89b:2b54:3cc1)
2023-07-10 22:08:49 +0200_ht(~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Quit: _ht)
2023-07-10 22:09:00 +0200jludwig(~justin@li657-110.members.linode.com)
2023-07-10 22:09:31 +0200jludwig(~justin@li657-110.members.linode.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-07-10 22:21:49 +0200hisa3877(~hisa38@104-181-102-238.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net)
2023-07-10 22:25:34 +0200jludwig(~justin@li657-110.members.linode.com)
2023-07-10 22:26:22 +0200bratwurst(~dfadsva@2604:3d09:207f:f650::5b03)
2023-07-10 22:28:55 +0200jludwig(~justin@li657-110.members.linode.com) (Client Quit)
2023-07-10 22:29:17 +0200Candlestick(mirc-rockc@179.152.251.228)
2023-07-10 22:29:39 +0200 <EvanR> i can't seem to trigger a monomorphism restriction-based error in ghci even while enabling MonomorphismRestriction and MonoLocalBinds. Is this phenomenon just gone
2023-07-10 22:29:49 +0200Candlestick(mirc-rockc@179.152.251.228) ()
2023-07-10 22:29:53 +0200jludwig(~justin@li657-110.members.linode.com)
2023-07-10 22:30:55 +0200Guest8058(~finn@rul16-h01-176-151-21-224.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 22:30:57 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:21c:4000:5bf9:6515:c030:57b7)
2023-07-10 22:35:46 +0200 <geekosaur> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/yD7RkV8i
2023-07-10 22:36:31 +0200 <geekosaur> the error then happens when you use `g` at some type that `(+)` would work at
2023-07-10 22:37:16 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2023-07-10 22:38:03 +0200 <int-e> > let x = 1 in truncate x + x
2023-07-10 22:38:04 +0200 <lambdabot> 2
2023-07-10 22:38:24 +0200 <int-e> (that fails with the monomorpism restriction enabled)
2023-07-10 22:39:09 +0200 <EvanR> i tried this
2023-07-10 22:39:16 +0200 <EvanR> > let f = 5 in (5+1, sqrt 5)
2023-07-10 22:39:17 +0200 <lambdabot> (6,2.23606797749979)
2023-07-10 22:39:20 +0200 <EvanR> and this
2023-07-10 22:39:35 +0200 <EvanR> > let f = \x -> x in (f 'a', f 1)
2023-07-10 22:39:36 +0200 <lambdabot> ('a',1)
2023-07-10 22:39:49 +0200 <EvanR> MonoLocalBinds enabled, still works
2023-07-10 22:40:08 +0200 <EvanR> wait
2023-07-10 22:40:09 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-07-10 22:40:16 +0200 <EvanR> > let f = 5 in (f+1, sqrt f)
2023-07-10 22:40:17 +0200 <lambdabot> (6,2.23606797749979)
2023-07-10 22:40:46 +0200 <EvanR> grrr
2023-07-10 22:41:19 +0200 <EvanR> > let f = 5 in (f `div` 2, sqrt f)
2023-07-10 22:41:21 +0200 <lambdabot> (2,2.23606797749979)
2023-07-10 22:41:49 +0200 <int-e> EvanR: note that the type changes with MonoLocalBinds
2023-07-10 22:42:22 +0200 <int-e> hmm, no. but it does with MonomorphismRestriction
2023-07-10 22:42:40 +0200 <EvanR> I see that
2023-07-10 22:42:54 +0200 <EvanR> :t let f = 5 in (f `div` 2, sqrt f)
2023-07-10 22:42:55 +0200 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Floating b) => (a, b)
2023-07-10 22:43:10 +0200 <EvanR> (Integral b, Floating b) => (b,b)
2023-07-10 22:44:20 +0200emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux)
2023-07-10 22:45:59 +0200Guest6127(~finn@rul16-h01-176-151-21-224.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr)
2023-07-10 22:47:07 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2023-07-10 22:49:15 +0200 <int-e> forall a. Num a => a is "closed" following the description of https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/let_generalisation.html so it'll stay generalized
2023-07-10 22:49:37 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv)
2023-07-10 22:50:16 +0200 <int-e> I feel that documentation lacks a convincing negative example (something that is generalized without MonoLocalBinds but isn't with MonoLocalBinds)
2023-07-10 22:50:37 +0200neuroevolutus(~neuroevol@2001:ac8:9a:76::1e) (Quit: Client closed)
2023-07-10 22:50:43 +0200Nosrep(~Nosrep@user/nosrep) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-07-10 22:51:39 +0200 <int-e> > let f x = let p y = (x, y) in (p '1', p 1) -- apparently this is an example, from https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20100930-LetGeneralisationInGhc7.html
2023-07-10 22:51:41 +0200 <lambdabot> <no location info>: error:
2023-07-10 22:51:41 +0200 <lambdabot> not an expression: ‘let f x = let p y = (x, y) in (p '1', p 1) -- appare...
2023-07-10 22:51:52 +0200 <int-e> err,
2023-07-10 22:52:10 +0200 <int-e> > let f x = let p y = (x, y) in (p '1', p 1) in f ()
2023-07-10 22:52:11 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2023-07-10 22:52:11 +0200 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num Char) arising from the literal ‘1’
2023-07-10 22:52:11 +0200 <lambdabot> • In the first argument of ‘p’, namely ‘1’
2023-07-10 22:52:44 +0200 <int-e> (would be accepted with NoMonoLocalBinds)
2023-07-10 22:55:41 +0200 <EvanR> hear me out for a second, why the hell is this even a thing. Why not just generalize let defined functions like a sane person. Don't think I've seen an explanation of this. I.e. the whole point
2023-07-10 22:55:44 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2023-07-10 22:56:41 +0200 <EvanR> compile performance?
2023-07-10 22:57:30 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:4c9c:5689:ea96:76a1)
2023-07-10 23:00:12 +0200 <geekosaur> you mean, why does it exist? type family resolution, apparently
2023-07-10 23:00:25 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:21c:4000:5bf9:6515:c030:57b7) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:00:25 +0200dhil(~dhil@78.45.150.83.ewm.ftth.as8758.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:00:47 +0200 <sm> out of order! out of order! it is unvarnished poppycock, gentlemen and ladies! He challenges our time-honoured traditions. I call for the member to return to his seat!
2023-07-10 23:00:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:01:08 +0200 <EvanR> no!
2023-07-10 23:01:27 +0200 <bratwurst> i feel like an idiot. i couldn't understand 'mapAccumB'. just now i realized that's what my widgets are is 'mapAccumB'
2023-07-10 23:01:40 +0200 <EvanR> monomorphism restriction pre-dates type families entirely?
2023-07-10 23:01:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> EvanR: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/GX6T6hyY
2023-07-10 23:01:46 +0200 <geekosaur> https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20100930-LetGeneralisationInGhc7.html
2023-07-10 23:01:55 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:4c9c:5689:ea96:76a1) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:01:56 +0200 <geekosaur> oh, someone linked that
2023-07-10 23:02:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> would you have expected the hi to be printed twice?
2023-07-10 23:02:12 +0200misterfish(~misterfis@84-53-85-146.bbserv.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:02:17 +0200 <EvanR> yeah I was looking at this blog
2023-07-10 23:02:34 +0200 <geekosaur> there's also a paper about it
2023-07-10 23:02:45 +0200 <geekosaur> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/outsideinx-modular-type-inference-with-local-… section 4.2
2023-07-10 23:02:49 +0200 <EvanR> have that paper open xD
2023-07-10 23:03:01 +0200 <EvanR> but why was MR a thing in e.g. haskell 1.0
2023-07-10 23:03:13 +0200 <EvanR> haskell89 xD
2023-07-10 23:03:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> EvanR: have you seen my paste?
2023-07-10 23:03:25 +0200 <EvanR> going there next
2023-07-10 23:03:38 +0200 <tomsmeding> EvanR: addendum is that repeating 'print (a :: Float)' also repeats hi
2023-07-10 23:03:57 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-07-10 23:03:58 +0200 <geekosaur> because if you treat a top level binding without parameters as a "constant", as is usually expected, it'll be separately a constant/memoized at each type
2023-07-10 23:04:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> whereas writing 'let b = trace "bye" (42 :: Float)' and then repeating 'print b' only gives "bye" the first time
2023-07-10 23:04:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> a polymorphic value is a function
2023-07-10 23:04:15 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx)
2023-07-10 23:04:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> you invoke it each time you use it
2023-07-10 23:04:24 +0200 <geekosaur> which can waste memory and produce other surprises
2023-07-10 23:05:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> the only reaon why two uses of 'a' at type Float would not result in "hi" twice in a source file (as opposed to the repl) is common subexpression elimination perhaps firing, but CSE is kinda reluctant in GHC
2023-07-10 23:05:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> substitute "trace" with "really expensive computation" of course
2023-07-10 23:07:12 +0200 <mauke> geekosaur: I don't think it's memoized at all
2023-07-10 23:07:28 +0200 <geekosaur> mm, no, it'd be a function of a dictionary
2023-07-10 23:07:32 +0200 <geekosaur> sorry
2023-07-10 23:07:56 +0200 <EvanR> when I did let f = 5, yeah ok there's a dictionary involved
2023-07-10 23:08:00 +0200 <EvanR> but
2023-07-10 23:08:12 +0200 <EvanR> with MR enabled this still works
2023-07-10 23:08:28 +0200 <mauke> ... are you asking about the MR or not?
2023-07-10 23:08:31 +0200 <EvanR> let f = undefined in (f `div` 2, sqrt f)
2023-07-10 23:08:44 +0200 <EvanR> :t let f = undefined in (f `div` 2, sqrt f)
2023-07-10 23:08:45 +0200 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Floating b) => (a, b)
2023-07-10 23:08:48 +0200 <EvanR> not (b,b)
2023-07-10 23:09:14 +0200falafel_(~falafel@2603-7000-a700-8710-eb64-0ac1-9c05-0860.res6.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:10:06 +0200 <EvanR> in this case f's polymorphic but not a function
2023-07-10 23:10:22 +0200 <EvanR> that we know of
2023-07-10 23:10:25 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:11:54 +0200 <EvanR> but ok tomsmeding, you're saying it's really about constants which depend on choice of type class
2023-07-10 23:12:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> EvanR: if a thing 'x' is polymorphic in a type variable a' without taking a type class dictionary depending on 'a', perhaps 'x' can be evaluated once and then used at all types 'a' without recomputation?
2023-07-10 23:13:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> seems like parametricity implies that recomputation is not necessary in that case
2023-07-10 23:13:09 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542)
2023-07-10 23:13:22 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2023-07-10 23:13:49 +0200slack1256(~slack1256@191.125.135.105) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023-07-10 23:14:33 +0200 <geekosaur> EvanR, that one is not MR, it's MLB
2023-07-10 23:14:38 +0200 <tomsmeding> the section of the haskell report linked from the MR GHC user guide page ( https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/decls.html#sect4.5.5 ) explicitly mentions type classes in some fashion
2023-07-10 23:14:45 +0200slack1256(~slack1256@186.11.22.119)
2023-07-10 23:14:54 +0200 <EvanR> MLB?
2023-07-10 23:14:59 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:15:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> MonoLocalBinds
2023-07-10 23:15:27 +0200 <EvanR> it works with MonoLocalBinds enabled
2023-07-10 23:15:29 +0200 <geekosaur> mm, but it still works
2023-07-10 23:15:32 +0200elred(~root@user/elred) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:15:56 +0200 <EvanR> tomsmeding, alright, that clears up some of the ancient motivations
2023-07-10 23:15:59 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:16:34 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx)
2023-07-10 23:17:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> perhaps the "Which bindings are affected?" section of https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20100930-LetGeneralisationInGhc7.html applies?
2023-07-10 23:17:17 +0200elred(~root@45.84.139.171)
2023-07-10 23:17:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> i.e. the f bindings we're talking about here do not fall under the reponsibility of MonoLocalBinds but of MonomorphismRestriction, because they are fake-local: they don't reference any local variables so could have been global
2023-07-10 23:17:55 +0200 <geekosaur> I just dropped in a partial type signature and found that the type of f doesn't involve a typeclass
2023-07-10 23:18:23 +0200tomsmedingis off to bed
2023-07-10 23:18:53 +0200misterfish(~misterfis@84-53-85-146.bbserv.nl)
2023-07-10 23:20:04 +0200 <Hecate> nacht
2023-07-10 23:20:17 +0200Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus)
2023-07-10 23:20:34 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net)
2023-07-10 23:21:25 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f37a5880f011a21b87c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:22:39 +0200takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2023-07-10 23:24:23 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)
2023-07-10 23:25:11 +0200nick3(~nick@wsip-174-78-110-18.pn.at.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:26:52 +0200Inst(~Inst@2601:6c4:4081:2fc0:3d31:5858:1e60:ad46) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:35:46 +0200nick3(~nick@2600:100d:b16c:65e0:b00a:235b:2088:f41c)
2023-07-10 23:36:37 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2023-07-10 23:43:10 +0200boxscape_(~boxscape_@81.191.27.107)
2023-07-10 23:44:32 +0200 <boxscape_> Hi, I uploaded a new version of my package yesterday https://hackage.haskell.org/package/monadic-bang-0.1.1.0 and the badge says "Build: PlanningFailed", apparently because I require at least base 4.17, but 4.16 is installed. Is there something I should do here or does this just not work with GHC >= 9.4?
2023-07-10 23:46:41 +0200merijn(~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:46:52 +0200JimL(~quassel@89.162.16.26) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:46:52 +0200JimL_(~quassel@89.162.16.26)
2023-07-10 23:56:58 +0200lainon(~textual@2601:7c0:cb00:c0a0:68c0:c255:9c8b:3dd)
2023-07-10 23:57:58 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2023-07-10 23:58:07 +0200 <geekosaur> that's probably a question for #haskell-infrastructure
2023-07-10 23:59:33 +0200 <boxscape_> will try thank you