2022/12/14

2022-12-14 00:02:58 +0100jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
2022-12-14 00:03:04 +0100jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
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2022-12-14 01:46:47 +0100magpi[m](~magpimatr@2001:470:69fc:105::1:725a)
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2022-12-14 02:47:32 +0100ddellacosta(~ddellacos@143.244.47.88)
2022-12-14 02:48:24 +0100Me-me-(~me-me@2602:ff16:3:0:1:dc:beef:d00d)
2022-12-14 02:49:25 +0100Wstfgl0(~me-me@2602:ff16:3:0:1:dc:beef:d00d) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2022-12-14 03:23:50 +0100magpi[m](~magpimatr@2001:470:69fc:105::1:725a) ()
2022-12-14 03:25:34 +0100freeside(~mengwong@pd907d273.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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2022-12-14 04:01:51 +0100[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2022-12-14 04:03:18 +0100hgolden(~hgolden@cpe-172-251-233-141.socal.res.rr.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-12-14 07:14:53 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-12-14 07:15:25 +0100azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2022-12-14 07:16:26 +0100 <iqubic> Seeing the error message "No instance (Functor Set)" and having to use `S.map` makes me a bit sad.
2022-12-14 07:17:03 +0100 <jackdk> It's not possible because you can't add constraints to fmap
2022-12-14 07:17:43 +0100 <iqubic> I know why it's impossible. I just wish it was possible.
2022-12-14 07:18:11 +0100bgs(~bgs@212-85-160-171.dynamic.telemach.net)
2022-12-14 07:20:04 +0100freeside(~mengwong@pd907d273.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-14 07:20:12 +0100instantaphex(~jb@c-73-171-252-84.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
2022-12-14 07:21:39 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-007.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-12-14 07:21:47 +0100 <EvanR> there's probably a way to force it, and there's probably many languages which have forced it and don't care about consequences xD
2022-12-14 07:22:05 +0100 <EvanR> move Functor break things
2022-12-14 07:22:13 +0100 <c_wraith> there's actually a pretty principled way to force it.
2022-12-14 07:22:23 +0100 <c_wraith> But it requires defining the data types differently
2022-12-14 07:23:09 +0100 <c_wraith> ... and it requires a GADT. so... there's that
2022-12-14 07:23:28 +0100forell(~forell@user/forell)
2022-12-14 07:24:34 +0100instantaphex(~jb@c-73-171-252-84.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-12-14 07:26:39 +0100 <jackdk> While we're breaking the universe, let's rename fmap -> map
2022-12-14 07:28:00 +0100 <Jade[m]> yep
2022-12-14 07:31:18 +0100 <EvanR> you mean bundle an ordering with the Data.Set?
2022-12-14 07:31:30 +0100fizbin(~fizbin@user/fizbin) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-12-14 07:31:52 +0100 <EvanR> I wonder where I saw something like "this is why that's a bad idea(tm)"
2022-12-14 07:34:35 +0100 <int-e> data FSet b where FSet :: Set a -> (a -> b) -> FSet b supports `fmap` but is otherwise pretty unpleasant?
2022-12-14 07:35:41 +0100 <c_wraith> data FSet a b where FSet :: Set a -> FSet a a ; instance Ord a => Functor (FSet a) where ...
2022-12-14 07:36:53 +0100 <EvanR> interesting
2022-12-14 07:37:18 +0100 <int-e> fmap :: (a -> b) -> FSet a a -> FSet a b
2022-12-14 07:37:31 +0100 <EvanR> ...
2022-12-14 07:37:34 +0100 <c_wraith> that's a type error, though
2022-12-14 07:37:40 +0100 <c_wraith> well, no it's not
2022-12-14 07:37:47 +0100 <c_wraith> There's just no FSet constructor with that type
2022-12-14 07:37:56 +0100 <int-e> No. But the arguments are inhabited while the result is not, unless a = b.
2022-12-14 07:38:08 +0100 <iqubic> This is silly.
2022-12-14 07:38:20 +0100 <int-e> So I don't think that particular type is helpful.
2022-12-14 07:38:28 +0100 <c_wraith> Then I remembered the details wrong. I can't seem to find the reddit post.
2022-12-14 07:38:37 +0100 <EvanR> hey, at least you can use fmap!
2022-12-14 07:38:49 +0100 <EvanR> which was the objective? xD
2022-12-14 07:39:03 +0100 <int-e> c_wraith: I imagine it had two constructors.
2022-12-14 07:39:30 +0100 <int-e> c_wraith: One for Set + identity, and the other for Set + arbitrary function captured from `fmap`.
2022-12-14 07:40:15 +0100 <c_wraith> Oh, hah. No, the trick was for Foldable, not Functor. That implementation works fine there
2022-12-14 07:40:21 +0100 <int-e> There's no way for `fmap` to produce a new set directly. The type doesn't allow it.
2022-12-14 07:40:45 +0100 <int-e> (where "set" = Data.Set.Set, requiring an Ord instance)
2022-12-14 07:40:47 +0100zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-12-14 07:40:53 +0100 <c_wraith> https://oleg.fi/gists/posts/2022-01-25-folding-unfoldable.html
2022-12-14 07:40:55 +0100 <iqubic> Isn't the identity for Set just an empty set?
2022-12-14 07:42:18 +0100 <int-e> Foldable is different, the class never constructs new Foldable values.
2022-12-14 07:42:47 +0100 <int-e> iqubic: I meant the identity function.
2022-12-14 07:42:57 +0100 <iqubic> Oh. I see....
2022-12-14 07:43:27 +0100 <int-e> Set has several semigroups... what's the identity for intersection? ;-)
2022-12-14 07:44:34 +0100 <iqubic> I don't think you can have a monoid under intersection.
2022-12-14 07:44:55 +0100 <int-e> Ah, but for some element types you can.
2022-12-14 07:45:09 +0100 <iqubic> Oh? How?
2022-12-14 07:45:14 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-14 07:45:20 +0100 <EvanR> when set means "subset of some universe set" it works
2022-12-14 07:45:36 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2022-12-14 07:45:40 +0100 <EvanR> that's when intersection and complement really shine
2022-12-14 07:45:47 +0100 <int-e> iqubic: they need to be finite, and then you can enumerate them all. (For Data.Set.Set that is.)
2022-12-14 07:46:08 +0100 <iqubic> Ah, I see.
2022-12-14 07:46:10 +0100 <EvanR> last years advent of code does agree with the finite xD
2022-12-14 07:46:13 +0100 <EvanR> doesn't*
2022-12-14 07:46:17 +0100zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00)
2022-12-14 07:46:38 +0100 <EvanR> it had to sectioning off subsets of an infinite plane into two regions
2022-12-14 07:46:47 +0100 <EvanR> ok I'm going to bed
2022-12-14 07:46:49 +0100 <iqubic> It did?
2022-12-14 07:46:56 +0100 <EvanR> yeah
2022-12-14 07:47:02 +0100img(~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2022-12-14 07:47:08 +0100 <iqubic> Which puzzle in 2020 wanted us to section off subsets of an infinite plane?
2022-12-14 07:47:10 +0100 <[Leary]> It can also be done in general if you represent Set differently, E.g. `newtype Set a = Set (a -> Bool)`, or `data Set a = Set (Data.Set.Set a) | Complement (Data.Set.Set a)`.
2022-12-14 07:47:14 +0100 <EvanR> 2021?
2022-12-14 07:47:18 +0100 <int-e> You can also have a new type `data Set' a = Direct (Set a) | Complement (Set a)`, which will support union, intersection, and complenent
2022-12-14 07:47:26 +0100 <[Leary]> Hah.
2022-12-14 07:47:31 +0100img(~img@user/img)
2022-12-14 07:47:34 +0100 <iqubic> EvanR: It's to late for me to be up.
2022-12-14 07:47:38 +0100 <int-e> (but not filter; if you want filter as well, you have to go [Leary]'s route)
2022-12-14 07:47:39 +0100freeside(~mengwong@pd907d273.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-12-14 07:47:54 +0100 <iqubic> Which puzzle had us sectioning off subsets?
2022-12-14 07:47:56 +0100 <int-e> the first one that is
2022-12-14 07:48:44 +0100 <int-e> (I didn't read the second half of [Leary]'s message before hitting return...)
2022-12-14 07:50:21 +0100 <EvanR> I think I was thinking of day 22
2022-12-14 07:50:35 +0100 <int-e> Ah, `Finite` and `Cofinite` would be nice names for those constructors.
2022-12-14 07:50:42 +0100 <EvanR> which wasn't a plane it was 3D space
2022-12-14 07:52:03 +0100 <iqubic> EvanR: Yeah, that puzzle was very difficult.
2022-12-14 07:52:36 +0100bilegeek(~bilegeek@2600:1008:b08d:1565:29c1:7d26:b6e4:da2a)
2022-12-14 07:52:59 +0100 <EvanR> i could have sworn there was a 2D puzzle which at least would benefit from treating "the rest of the world" as toggling from 0 to 1 or on to off
2022-12-14 07:55:49 +0100 <iqubic> There was. Let me see if I can figure out which puzzle that was.
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2022-12-14 07:57:55 +0100 <EvanR> maybe it was glowing octopus or something
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2022-12-14 08:10:23 +0100 <int-e> This? https://adventofcode.com/2021/day/20
2022-12-14 08:10:44 +0100 <int-e> Where the actual input had the property that it would invert the empty space.
2022-12-14 08:12:41 +0100 <int-e> (Which apparently I just hard-coded into my solution.)
2022-12-14 08:13:47 +0100 <iqubic> Yeah, that..
2022-12-14 08:18:54 +0100shriekingnoise(~shrieking@186.137.167.202) (Quit: Quit)
2022-12-14 08:20:38 +0100 <iqubic> To make my solution to that more readable I used binary literals and numeric underscores and write literals like "0b111_111_111" and such
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2022-12-14 08:28:24 +0100 <int-e> > map (foldl' (\x y -> 2*x + if y == '.' then 0 else 1) 0 . replicate 9) ".#"
2022-12-14 08:28:26 +0100 <lambdabot> [0,511]
2022-12-14 08:29:07 +0100 <int-e> (that `foldl'` is something I actually used)
2022-12-14 08:29:17 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2022-12-14 08:29:30 +0100zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00)
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2022-12-14 08:31:23 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-14 08:31:43 +0100 <int-e> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/bt3J2YXR -- not pretty, and, as I said, hard-coding the outside. (This is based on padding, so it alternates between padding with '.' and with '#')
2022-12-14 08:32:00 +0100 <int-e> Not efficient either, it didn't have to be.
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2022-12-14 08:32:36 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2022-12-14 08:33:31 +0100 <int-e> (I didn't even pack the rules into a vector or array or bytestring)
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2022-12-14 12:34:47 +0100hueso(~root@user/hueso)
2022-12-14 12:40:43 +0100 <mniip> what's a non-terrible way to write case x of { S.Bin _ S.Tip x S.Tip -> Just x; _ -> Nothing }
2022-12-14 12:41:17 +0100 <mniip> most operations on sets want to recurse on the branches first
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2022-12-14 14:01:27 +0100[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
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2022-12-14 14:44:59 +0100 <chreekat> mniip: PatternSynonyms perhaps?
2022-12-14 14:45:12 +0100 <chreekat> or ViewPatterns
2022-12-14 14:45:22 +0100 <mniip> that helps how?
2022-12-14 14:45:28 +0100Alex_test(~al_test@178.34.161.14)
2022-12-14 14:45:37 +0100 <mniip> the problem is I don't want to have to use Data.Set.Internal
2022-12-14 14:45:41 +0100 <chreekat> oh
2022-12-14 14:45:54 +0100 <chreekat> well then I don't understand the problem well enough
2022-12-14 14:46:14 +0100Alex_test(~al_test@178.34.161.14) (Client Quit)
2022-12-14 14:46:34 +0100Alex_test(~al_test@178.34.161.14)
2022-12-14 14:49:02 +0100 <c_wraith> mniip: but that's an internal detail. the root of the tree isn't something you're supposed to care about
2022-12-14 14:49:18 +0100 <c_wraith> Or the leaves, for that matter
2022-12-14 14:49:20 +0100freeside(~mengwong@37.230.10.52) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-12-14 14:49:48 +0100 <mniip> I want a function that extracts the only element of a set, but in case there are more, it doesn't traverse the set more that necessary
2022-12-14 14:49:57 +0100freeside(~mengwong@37.230.10.52)
2022-12-14 14:50:08 +0100inversed(~inversed@bcdcac82.skybroadband.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-14 14:50:12 +0100 <mniip> I guess I could do a S.findMin guarded behind S.size
2022-12-14 14:50:30 +0100 <c_wraith> yeah, that's how you'd express that.
2022-12-14 14:50:36 +0100shriekingnoise(~shrieking@186.137.167.202)
2022-12-14 14:51:32 +0100 <mniip> this has the behavior of case x of { S.Bin sz l x _ | sz == 1 -> case l of { S.Tip -> Just x; S.Bin -> unreachable }; _ -> Nothing }
2022-12-14 14:51:38 +0100 <mniip> berable I guess
2022-12-14 14:52:46 +0100inversed(~inversed@bcdcac82.skybroadband.com)
2022-12-14 14:55:13 +0100 <c_wraith> eh? if the size is 1, l should be Tip
2022-12-14 14:55:26 +0100 <c_wraith> Oh, nevermind. It's clearly too easy for me to be reading
2022-12-14 14:57:15 +0100Erutuon_(~Erutuon@user/erutuon)
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2022-12-14 16:08:43 +0100 <dminuoso> mniip: You could use MonadComprehensions together with: [r | S.Bin _ S.Tip x S.Tip <- x]
2022-12-14 16:09:07 +0100 <dminuoso> Oh slight typo in the pattern, but you get the idea
2022-12-14 16:09:24 +0100 <mniip> what
2022-12-14 16:09:49 +0100 <mniip> my main issue is with breaking the Data.Set abstraction, not syntax sugar
2022-12-14 16:09:53 +0100 <dminuoso> Oh I see.
2022-12-14 16:14:55 +0100 <dminuoso> Indeed it seems like size guarded findMin is your best bet if sticking with public API.
2022-12-14 16:17:11 +0100Guest23(~Guest23@27.57.46.219)
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2022-12-14 16:52:20 +0100jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
2022-12-14 16:52:42 +0100jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2022-12-14 17:02:05 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:9454:4b6:946e:87e6) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2022-12-14 17:04:18 +0100coot(~coot@213.134.171.3)
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2022-12-14 17:09:17 +0100paolino(~paolo@5.157.115.53)
2022-12-14 17:10:36 +0100 <Athas> Are there any GHC binary tarballs that work on RHEL 8?
2022-12-14 17:10:38 +0100rcharles(~user@pool-71-166-43-226.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
2022-12-14 17:12:02 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
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2022-12-14 17:33:50 +0100festive_kurbus(~festive_k@user/kurbus)
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2022-12-14 17:51:55 +0100mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
2022-12-14 17:52:05 +0100 <monochrom> I don't know but there is some chance one of {Fedora, CentOS} may work.
2022-12-14 17:54:09 +0100 <geekosaur> low chance; RHEL8 is ancient
2022-12-14 17:54:25 +0100 <geekosaur> well, probably uo to date by their release schedule but all ancient software
2022-12-14 17:54:49 +0100 <geekosaur> hm, centos should work but I doubt there's a release for that either
2022-12-14 17:54:59 +0100 <geekosaur> old gmp, in particular
2022-12-14 17:55:38 +0100 <monochrom> There is a GHC binary for CentOS 7.
2022-12-14 17:58:00 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-12-14 17:58:26 +0100 <mauke> "Since joining Epic Games in late 2021, I have been involved in the design and development of Verse, a new, declarative programming language that Epic plans to use as the language of the metaverse." <- :-( what a disappointing summary
2022-12-14 17:58:41 +0100 <monochrom> haha
2022-12-14 17:58:42 +0100themc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
2022-12-14 17:59:23 +0100 <monochrom> What's the context? Who's the intended audience?
2022-12-14 17:59:50 +0100Guest23(~Guest23@27.57.46.219) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-14 17:59:50 +0100 <mauke> no idea, found it in a SPJ video on youtube
2022-12-14 17:59:56 +0100 <int-e> does "meta" work like "co", where "cocoverse" reduces to "verse"?
2022-12-14 18:00:27 +0100mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-12-14 18:00:42 +0100 <monochrom> Hrm so that's why it's called Verse. I thought it referred to having verses in poems etc.
2022-12-14 18:00:59 +0100monochromgoes write a multiverse poem!
2022-12-14 18:01:17 +0100 <monochrom> (one more great tautology)
2022-12-14 18:01:44 +0100 <shapr> @quote
2022-12-14 18:01:44 +0100 <lambdabot> sigfpe says: It's like deciding that the prime numbers bigger than 20 are interesting for some reason, and then choosing to name them "the primes".
2022-12-14 18:01:48 +0100 <mauke> "Understanding join points can help you are a programmer too, because you can write code confident that it will optimise well. You will discover a rather compelling example this."
2022-12-14 18:01:51 +0100 <mauke> who writes these
2022-12-14 18:02:16 +0100themc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-14 18:02:22 +0100 <int-e> . o O ( Verse programs must be written in iambic pentameter. )
2022-12-14 18:02:24 +0100 <monochrom> Prime numbers bigger than 2 are interesting for some reason, and I choose to name them "the odd primes". >:)
2022-12-14 18:02:35 +0100themc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
2022-12-14 18:02:49 +0100 <int-e> monochrom: that's unfair to 2.
2022-12-14 18:03:01 +0100 <mauke> which prime is the oddest?
2022-12-14 18:03:10 +0100 <int-e> (which, as you are certainly aware, is a pretty odd prime)
2022-12-14 18:03:12 +0100 <mauke> is it 2?
2022-12-14 18:04:15 +0100 <[exa]> mauke: 1
2022-12-14 18:04:42 +0100[exa]runs away from the angered crowd of mathematicians
2022-12-14 18:04:51 +0100 <mauke> sub putStr{-print@_}q o-}=0;main=do;putStr"JAHP\n"
2022-12-14 18:05:25 +0100int-elocks [exa] up in an Euclidean domain for safety.
2022-12-14 18:07:21 +0100 <monochrom> "You will discover a rather compelling example this" is probably from Yoda >:)
2022-12-14 18:07:53 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:f49d:401d:a888:f078) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-14 18:08:23 +0100 <monochrom> But I can also agree that it's from an AI that learned from Yoda.
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2022-12-14 18:40:27 +0100 <aeroplane> I've removed brackets and then this code causes memory leak, http://ix.io/4iBr/haskell
2022-12-14 18:41:16 +0100 <aeroplane> Make sure to run it like this or else it will blow up your RAM, $ sh ghc -O -rtsopts haskell.hs;./haskell +RTS -M4m -RTS
2022-12-14 18:41:27 +0100 <monochrom> I am seeing fib x = (fib x) - 1 + (fib x) - 2.
2022-12-14 18:41:42 +0100 <monochrom> I would be surprised if it would terminate at all.
2022-12-14 18:42:15 +0100 <aeroplane> arguments still confuses me
2022-12-14 18:43:48 +0100festive_kurbus(~festive_k@user/kurbus) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-12-14 18:44:03 +0100 <int-e> For the most part, spaces are irrelevant in Haskell's syntax; there's no difference between `fib x-1 + fib x-2` and `fib x - 1 + fib x - 2`.
2022-12-14 18:44:41 +0100 <monochrom> A good white lie (much better than competing white lies) is that between "fib" and "x" there is an invisible operator for function application and its operator precedence is very high. This explains why "fib x - 1" becomes "(fib x) - 1" not "fib (x-1)".
2022-12-14 18:44:44 +0100 <int-e> (spaces are of course relevant for indentation and for a few extensions like NegativeLiterals and TypeApplications... am I forgetting something?)
2022-12-14 18:45:16 +0100 <int-e> % :set -XNegativeLiterals
2022-12-14 18:45:16 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2022-12-14 18:45:21 +0100econo(uid147250@user/econo)
2022-12-14 18:45:22 +0100 <int-e> % id -1
2022-12-14 18:45:22 +0100 <yahb2> -1
2022-12-14 18:45:29 +0100 <int-e> % id - 1 -- confusingly :-/
2022-12-14 18:45:29 +0100 <yahb2> <interactive>:36:1: error: ; • No instance for (Show (a0 -> a0)) ; arising from a use of ‘Yahb2Defs.limitedPrint’ ; (maybe you haven't applied a function to enough arguments?) ;...
2022-12-14 18:45:58 +0100 <monochrom> "But but isn't space that operator?" is a pretty good white lie too. (Until you find out that length"abc" works, no space.)
2022-12-14 18:46:02 +0100 <int-e> That is an extension though.
2022-12-14 18:46:14 +0100 <int-e> (the negative literals thing)
2022-12-14 18:46:27 +0100 <int-e> > length"abc"
2022-12-14 18:46:29 +0100 <lambdabot> 3
2022-12-14 18:46:31 +0100 <int-e> > ord'a'
2022-12-14 18:46:32 +0100 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: ord'a'
2022-12-14 18:46:36 +0100 <int-e> :-/
2022-12-14 18:46:56 +0100 <monochrom> > let ord'a' x = ord x in ord'a' 'a'
2022-12-14 18:46:57 +0100 <lambdabot> 97
2022-12-14 18:46:59 +0100 <monochrom> >:)
2022-12-14 18:47:12 +0100festive_kurbus(~festive_k@user/kurbus)
2022-12-14 18:47:28 +0100 <monochrom> Recall oleg'case'works :)
2022-12-14 18:47:53 +0100 <mauke> rock'n'roll
2022-12-14 18:48:24 +0100 <int-e> monochrom: I mean, I knew that it wouldn't work, and why.
2022-12-14 18:48:31 +0100 <monochrom> OK heh
2022-12-14 18:48:42 +0100mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
2022-12-14 18:49:05 +0100 <int-e> > let foo x f = f x in foo 1id
2022-12-14 18:49:06 +0100 <lambdabot> 1
2022-12-14 18:49:46 +0100 <int-e> fortunately, these corner cases are not often exercised in real world code
2022-12-14 18:49:47 +0100jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2022-12-14 18:49:50 +0100 <monochrom> Unpopular opinion: Use parentheses to avoid spaces! map(f)(x:xs) = x : map(f)(xs)
2022-12-14 18:50:11 +0100mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-14 18:50:14 +0100 <monochrom> Did you know: Landin legit wrote that in papers.
2022-12-14 18:50:26 +0100 <monochrom> Or rather, wrote like that. "f(x)(y)".
2022-12-14 18:50:35 +0100mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
2022-12-14 18:50:36 +0100 <int-e> dym map(f)(x:xs)=x:map(f)xs
2022-12-14 18:50:53 +0100 <monochrom> Yeah
2022-12-14 18:51:14 +0100themc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-12-14 18:51:20 +0100 <mauke> why not x:(map)f(xs)
2022-12-14 18:51:45 +0100 <int-e> why not indeed
2022-12-14 18:51:52 +0100 <int-e> or (x):(map)(f)(xs)
2022-12-14 18:51:54 +0100 <mauke> x:f`map`xs
2022-12-14 18:52:18 +0100 <monochrom> (:)(x)(f`map`xs)
2022-12-14 18:52:19 +0100 <int-e> (:map(f)xs)x
2022-12-14 18:52:53 +0100 <monochrom> OK sorry I'm degenerating to s-expressions.
2022-12-14 18:52:54 +0100 <int-e> (and people complain about Perl being line noise)
2022-12-14 18:53:08 +0100JordiGH(~jordi@user/jordigh) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-12-14 18:53:30 +0100 <monochrom> I complain about COBOL being word noise. >:)
2022-12-14 18:53:47 +0100vpan(~0@212.117.1.172) (Quit: Leaving.)
2022-12-14 18:54:45 +0100 <monochrom> Hey I'm going to coin "readable noise" as a derogatory term!
2022-12-14 18:58:57 +0100glguy_glguy
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2022-12-14 19:21:53 +0100fizbin(~fizbin@user/fizbin)
2022-12-14 19:24:48 +0100 <fizbin> I have a question about laziness and Control.Monad.State.
2022-12-14 19:25:56 +0100 <fizbin> Can someone explain to me the difference among the four possibilities: Control.Monad.State.Lazy.modify, Control.Monad.State.Lazy.modify', Control.Monad.State.Strict.modify, Control.Monad.State.Strict.modify'
2022-12-14 19:26:42 +0100 <fizbin> Specifically, what exactly ends up lazy in the middle two (Lazy.modify' vs Strict.modify) there?
2022-12-14 19:28:57 +0100 <EvanR> I looked at the source, so now I know xD
2022-12-14 19:30:40 +0100 <aeroplane> Thanks for this awesome discussion about my ques, really understood about arguments now. Since in "fib x + 1", fib takes single argument, ∴ + is not an argument to 'fib'. And since λ is a func prog lang, ∴ order of execution is from left to right in sequence
2022-12-14 19:30:58 +0100thegeekinside(~thegeekin@189.217.82.244)
2022-12-14 19:31:13 +0100 <geekosaur> fizbin, there are two things that can be strict vs. lazy: the (>>=) operation, and updating the state
2022-12-14 19:31:35 +0100 <geekosaur> Strict vs. Lazy is the former, and modify vs. modify' is the latter
2022-12-14 19:31:55 +0100nut(~nut@roc37-h01-176-170-197-243.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr) (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)
2022-12-14 19:32:13 +0100 <fizbin> I guess I'm a little confused on what it means for (>>=) to be lazy then.
2022-12-14 19:32:48 +0100 <fizbin> Because I thought that (>>=) in Control.Monad.State being lazy meant being lazy in the state.
2022-12-14 19:32:53 +0100fserucas(~fserucas@2001:818:e376:a400:fb92:70c1:dd88:c7d7) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-12-14 19:33:44 +0100 <geekosaur> I think it is, but in a different place from modify/modify' ?
2022-12-14 19:36:20 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-12-14 19:36:46 +0100mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-14 19:36:49 +0100 <EvanR> lazy >>= doesn't actual touch the state
2022-12-14 19:37:05 +0100mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
2022-12-14 19:37:09 +0100 <EvanR> it defers the continuation entirely
2022-12-14 19:37:36 +0100 <geekosaur> there you go, then
2022-12-14 19:38:43 +0100 <EvanR> oof, I'm looking at the code for `state'
2022-12-14 19:39:59 +0100 <EvanR> state f = get >>= \s -> let ~(a, s') = f s in put s' >> return a
2022-12-14 19:41:31 +0100 <mauke> inb4 backwards state monad
2022-12-14 19:41:34 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-12-14 19:41:57 +0100 <dminuoso> fizbin: Lets first talk about modify vs modify'. The difference here, is that one is strict in the state itself, so `modify f`, f is applied *strictly* to the state.
2022-12-14 19:42:44 +0100 <dminuoso> modify' f = do { s <- get; put $! f s }
2022-12-14 19:42:47 +0100 <dminuoso> modify f = do { s <- get; put $ f s }
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2022-12-14 19:49:35 +0100mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
2022-12-14 19:51:19 +0100 <EvanR> and State.Lazy >>= also has a similar ~ in the definition of >>=
2022-12-14 19:52:05 +0100 <EvanR> much lazy
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2022-12-14 19:58:47 +0100 <monochrom> EvanR: Yes, State.Lazy allows left recursion. foo = do { xs <- foo; pure (0:xs) } gives you an infinite list.
2022-12-14 19:59:18 +0100tomokojun(~tomokojun@75.164.52.103)
2022-12-14 19:59:42 +0100 <EvanR> fizbin, probably a giant gotcha is: even "Strict State" is particularly lazy with the state by default
2022-12-14 20:00:26 +0100 <glguy> fizbin: The Lazy and Strict in the module names refers to being lazy in the tuple part of (s -> (a,s))
2022-12-14 20:00:33 +0100 <glguy> and not to being strict/lazy in the state value itself
2022-12-14 20:01:58 +0100 <glguy> so consider this from Control.Monad.State.Lazy
2022-12-14 20:01:59 +0100 <glguy> >>> execState (undefined >> put 'a') undefined
2022-12-14 20:02:04 +0100 <glguy> evaluates to 'a'
2022-12-14 20:02:29 +0100 <glguy> it doesn't matter than the computation before put 'a' wasn't defined as it wasn't needed; put ignored it
2022-12-14 20:03:08 +0100 <glguy> but that would have been undefined in the Strict state case
2022-12-14 20:03:28 +0100 <glguy> In the strict state case, you can still be lazy in the state value
2022-12-14 20:03:29 +0100 <glguy> >>> execState (put 'a') undefined
2022-12-14 20:03:30 +0100AkechiShiro(~licht@user/akechishiro) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-14 20:03:32 +0100 <glguy> 'a'
2022-12-14 20:04:10 +0100Adran(adran@botters/adran) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-12-14 20:04:12 +0100AkechiShiro(~licht@user/akechishiro)
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2022-12-14 20:05:22 +0100Adran(~adran@botters/adran)
2022-12-14 20:05:38 +0100 <EvanR> >>> execState (do put undefined; put 'a') 'b'
2022-12-14 20:05:44 +0100 <EvanR> > execState (do put undefined; put 'a') 'b'
2022-12-14 20:05:46 +0100 <lambdabot> 'a'
2022-12-14 20:07:18 +0100jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2022-12-14 20:08:43 +0100elevenkb(~elevenkb@105.224.37.83)
2022-12-14 20:08:59 +0100 <EvanR> > execState (do modify (+1); put 3) undefined
2022-12-14 20:09:01 +0100 <lambdabot> 3
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2022-12-14 20:15:09 +0100gensyst(gensyst@user/gensyst)
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2022-12-14 20:16:00 +0100 <gensyst> Why could cause traceShow "foo" from not getting output? Can it be that multiple invocations are not output if the string is the same?
2022-12-14 20:16:19 +0100 <gensyst> I'm pretty sure the thing should be evaluated because it's after a return in an IO call
2022-12-14 20:16:32 +0100 <gensyst> return $ traceShow "foo" 2
2022-12-14 20:16:38 +0100 <gensyst> and the 2 is used
2022-12-14 20:16:53 +0100 <opqdonut> the compiler might lift the constant
2022-12-14 20:17:14 +0100 <opqdonut> you can check the core to be sure
2022-12-14 20:17:26 +0100 <opqdonut> (if it's a nontrivial sized program reading the core might be a bit of a chore though)
2022-12-14 20:17:55 +0100nisstyre(~wes@user/nisstyre)
2022-12-14 20:17:56 +0100 <gensyst> i'm forced to throw in a random number into that string, to be sure it's output?
2022-12-14 20:17:56 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-12-14 20:18:23 +0100 <gensyst> any tricks here?
2022-12-14 20:18:31 +0100 <gensyst> btw that string *is* getting output, but just once
2022-12-14 20:18:40 +0100 <opqdonut> yeah that would be consistent with constant lifting
2022-12-14 20:18:51 +0100 <opqdonut> if you're in IO, why even use trace instead of a print?
2022-12-14 20:19:10 +0100 <gensyst> well ok i meant monad lol
2022-12-14 20:19:16 +0100 <gensyst> ok i'll just add monadio for now and do print lol
2022-12-14 20:20:01 +0100 <opqdonut> this is a good demonstration of how laziness and impure operatios don't mix that well :)
2022-12-14 20:20:13 +0100 <mauke> :t Debug.Trace.traceIO
2022-12-14 20:20:14 +0100 <lambdabot> String -> IO ()
2022-12-14 20:21:08 +0100 <opqdonut> there's probably some trick where you introduce a closure to make the optimizer not lift that out
2022-12-14 20:21:28 +0100 <mauke> see description of https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.17.0.0/docs/Debug-Trace.html#v:traceM
2022-12-14 20:22:46 +0100 <gensyst> thank you guys
2022-12-14 20:23:31 +0100 <gensyst> but why would one ever use traceIO instead of print?
2022-12-14 20:23:44 +0100 <gensyst> built-in caching (for performance) or something?
2022-12-14 20:24:20 +0100 <EvanR> :t print
2022-12-14 20:24:21 +0100 <lambdabot> Show a => a -> IO ()
2022-12-14 20:24:40 +0100 <jean-paul[m]> "Setup configure ..." is failing with "Missing (or bad) C library:". It says I can pass "-v3" to see the error messages ... but "Setup -v3 configure ..." says exactly the same thing, as does "Setup configure -v3 ...". Where do I pass it?
2022-12-14 20:24:44 +0100 <monochrom> print goes to stdout, but I want stderr
2022-12-14 20:25:07 +0100 <jean-paul[m]> Meh. "..." had stuff in it that reset verbosity to a lower level.
2022-12-14 20:25:23 +0100 <monochrom> Even in a C course I teach students "debugging messages go to stderr please, don't spam stdout".
2022-12-14 20:26:23 +0100 <EvanR> haha, traceIO is defined in terms of something called `debugBelch :: CString -> CString -> IO ()'
2022-12-14 20:27:01 +0100 <EvanR> (presumably goes to stderr)
2022-12-14 20:27:03 +0100 <monochrom> Unpopular opinion: When debugging messages spam stdout, it's called "test pollution". >:)
2022-12-14 20:27:37 +0100mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@2001:999:230:86e2:ae4c:4efd:1f0:d882)
2022-12-14 20:28:46 +0100 <EvanR> gensyst, standard trace is attached to an expression. It's tricky to insist ghc evaluates that expression the number of times you want it to, if evaluating less times (or zero times) gives the same usual semantics
2022-12-14 20:30:01 +0100 <EvanR> purity is great if you take it seriously xD
2022-12-14 20:31:14 +0100 <Profpatsch> Okay okay this might sound crazy, but hear me out: RecordWildCards for HasField
2022-12-14 20:31:28 +0100gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-12-14 20:32:28 +0100 <gensyst> Interesting!
2022-12-14 20:32:57 +0100 <gensyst> Ah, so the issue is not the string being the same. The issue is the main value being the same
2022-12-14 20:33:09 +0100 <gensyst> sorry misunderstood earlier
2022-12-14 20:33:20 +0100 <Profpatsch> \(foo{..}, bar{..}) -> … this would put all HasField instances for the type of foo and bar into scope
2022-12-14 20:33:56 +0100 <monochrom> Debug.Trace lets you observe lazy evaluation and more detailedly what GHC has decided about when to evaluate and how many times.
2022-12-14 20:33:58 +0100 <EvanR> value being the same doesn't explain it, since that sounds like caching
2022-12-14 20:34:17 +0100 <monochrom> Corollary being if you don't see a message then evaluation didn't happen.
2022-12-14 20:35:09 +0100 <monochrom> If you see it only once then it's evaluated only once. If you expected repeats then it means GHC decided to memoize or common-subexpression-elimination etc.
2022-12-14 20:35:52 +0100wagle(~wagle@quassel.wagle.io) (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
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2022-12-14 20:37:06 +0100tomokojun_(~tomokojun@75.164.24.44)
2022-12-14 20:37:46 +0100 <kalj> I'm having some trouble with lsp-haskell in emacs. It doesn't seem to search for my stack.yaml file the same way that happens when I run haskell-language-server-wrapper directly.
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2022-12-14 20:49:16 +0100 <ballast> what's the right data structure to model a many-to-one relation? I basically want a map where multiple keys can map to the same value. And importantly I want to also be able to go from the value to all of the keys that map to it.
2022-12-14 20:49:55 +0100 <EvanR> Map k a already lets multiple keys go to the same value
2022-12-14 20:50:00 +0100 <EvanR> Map a [k] goes backwards
2022-12-14 20:51:19 +0100 <ballast> hmmm, so perhaps I could just have `a` be itself a key in a `Map a value`. I think I might want to mutate the `value`.
2022-12-14 20:51:19 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-12-14 20:52:10 +0100tomokojun_tomokojun
2022-12-14 20:52:28 +0100 <EvanR> if you change the forward map, you have to change the index regardless
2022-12-14 20:52:42 +0100 <EvanR> whether it's adding, removing, or changing values
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2022-12-14 20:53:56 +0100 <ballast> i'm a little surprised that there isn't some sort of preexisting data structure for this, but admittedly i can't think of a different way of doing it in another programming language
2022-12-14 20:54:03 +0100 <EvanR> there's stuff on hackage, I'm sure
2022-12-14 20:54:28 +0100 <EvanR> even for Map you need the containers package
2022-12-14 20:54:37 +0100 <ballast> my other thought is to store `[k]` in `a` itself
2022-12-14 20:55:09 +0100 <EvanR> How would that help
2022-12-14 20:55:39 +0100 <ballast> wouldn't need the backwards map as long as you have `a` , but then you'd need to update every entry in `Map k a` if you add a new key
2022-12-14 20:55:45 +0100 <EvanR> I mean, if `a' is some unique object somewhere that you can always access, ok
2022-12-14 20:55:59 +0100 <EvanR> but I assumed a are values
2022-12-14 20:56:13 +0100 <EvanR> independent of the state of your database
2022-12-14 20:56:16 +0100 <ballast> ah i see
2022-12-14 20:56:48 +0100 <ballast> regardless i think you're right that the way to go about it is just to have a regular map
2022-12-14 20:57:18 +0100 <EvanR> some kind of index to go backwards, I just said Map a [k] because it's the dumbest
2022-12-14 20:57:47 +0100 <EvanR> pair the index with the original map and keep it up to date
2022-12-14 20:59:42 +0100 <EvanR> as soon as you start having multiple indexes of multiple sets, there is IxSet from package ixset
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2022-12-14 22:12:01 +0100 <fizbin> Is it possible to declare the fixity of a non-top-level binding?
2022-12-14 22:15:30 +0100 <fizbin> Huh. infixr inside a let expression seems to work.
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2022-12-14 22:22:41 +0100 <geekosaur> the Report says nothing about it but ghc allows it, yes
2022-12-14 22:22:50 +0100 <geekosaur> with no extension
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2022-12-14 22:36:39 +0100 <davean> geekosaur: does it not? Hum, I'd have to reread the grammar, I though it was part of the decl grammar ...
2022-12-14 22:36:52 +0100 <davean> So it should go anywhere a decl can
2022-12-14 22:37:42 +0100 <davean> Yah, its part of gendecl which is in decl and cdecl, not topdecl'
2022-12-14 22:37:54 +0100 <davean> so the Haskell report clearly says it must be allowed there.
2022-12-14 22:37:57 +0100 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.4.1/docs/users_guide/exts/local_fixity_decls.html?highlight=fi…
2022-12-14 22:38:05 +0100 <davean> https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch4.html#x10-620004
2022-12-14 22:38:28 +0100 <geekosaur> maybe it was fixed in 2010
2022-12-14 22:38:44 +0100 <geekosaur> yeh, the one I pointed to specifically says H98
2022-12-14 22:39:41 +0100 <davean> The complaint there is the specification is clear, even that claims they are specified to exist
2022-12-14 22:39:52 +0100 <davean> *is not clear
2022-12-14 22:40:29 +0100 <davean> Thats a debate about scoping, to which the correct interpritation seems clear, and taken by GHC
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2022-12-14 23:33:03 +0100 <zanc> what is ghc's -B option?
2022-12-14 23:35:09 +0100 <geekosaur> it tells ghc where it is actually installed, since it can be relocated at runtime
2022-12-14 23:35:33 +0100 <zanc> is it documented somewhere?
2022-12-14 23:38:05 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-12-14 23:38:06 +0100 <geekosaur> I don't think so; it's an internal detail
2022-12-14 23:38:16 +0100 <geekosaur> if it is it would be in the ghc wiki
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