IRCBrowse

2022/12/03

2022-12-03 00:00:13 +0100 <davean> To show that there was more than a 2x spread
2022-12-03 00:00:14 +0100 <monochrom> Ugh wolfram alpha refuses to compute integrate x^2 dx from 0 to (us macdonalds salary)
2022-12-03 00:00:45 +0100 <davean> fieldbuck_: From europe I'm taking it? :)
2022-12-03 00:00:52 +0100 <fieldbuck_> yes!
2022-12-03 00:01:01 +0100werneta(~werneta@70-142-214-115.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-12-03 00:01:30 +0100 <monochrom> ooooohhhhhh I see, "us macdonalds salary" is not referentially transparent! That's why.
2022-12-03 00:02:01 +0100 <davean> fieldbuck_: well the EU fits in a corner of the US :-p
2022-12-03 00:02:32 +0100 <monochrom> Ugh next you're saying "US is America, Canada is North America"...
2022-12-03 00:02:53 +0100 <davean> monochrom: nah, but France is North America
2022-12-03 00:03:00 +0100 <monochrom> haha
2022-12-03 00:03:09 +0100 <davean> it is!
2022-12-03 00:03:13 +0100 <davean> And south america!
2022-12-03 00:03:32 +0100 <EvanR> I live in south america
2022-12-03 00:03:35 +0100 <monochrom> rock-paper-scissor geography
2022-12-03 00:03:37 +0100 <EvanR> i.e. louisiana
2022-12-03 00:03:40 +0100 <davean> EvanR: Do you live in France?
2022-12-03 00:03:52 +0100 <davean> Ah damn I didn't get it in fast enough
2022-12-03 00:04:05 +0100 <fieldbuck_> i mean a nurse and a junior dev might earn somewhat same money here and if you are wery experienced and senior maybe you could earn 2x that much
2022-12-03 00:04:09 +0100 <EvanR> like many other places used to be technically france
2022-12-03 00:04:18 +0100 <fieldbuck_> but anything more than that you would have to be really special
2022-12-03 00:05:02 +0100 <davean> fieldbuck_: I know US developers making between 80k and something like 1.5M personally.
2022-12-03 00:05:19 +0100 <davean> At the higher end its a little harder to say how much they make exactly.
2022-12-03 00:05:43 +0100 <davean> I've known US developers making 40k
2022-12-03 00:06:01 +0100 <fieldbuck_> hmm but according to google nurse avg salary is about 80k so it would be 6.6k a month
2022-12-03 00:06:15 +0100tomokojun(~tomokojun@37.19.221.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-12-03 00:06:27 +0100 <davean> fieldbuck_: So why do you care? That might help more
2022-12-03 00:06:42 +0100 <mauke> wait, why is fieldbuck_ back? weren't they k-lined?
2022-12-03 00:06:43 +0100tomokojun(~tomokojun@37.19.221.160)
2022-12-03 00:07:02 +0100 <fieldbuck_> ? i mean i don't really care and i am not arguing anything but i am just curious
2022-12-03 00:10:40 +0100 <davean> fieldbuck_: well you're asking a question and you keep acting like these salaries are fungible, you're asking for a reason but you are not at all looking at how much money a person actually gets or what the spending power is
2022-12-03 00:11:17 +0100werneta(~werneta@70-142-214-115.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-12-03 00:13:26 +0100 <fieldbuck_> i know i know! but what i really wanted to know how much money does a junior software dev make than a mcd burger flipper or a walmart cashier!
2022-12-03 00:13:45 +0100 <fieldbuck_> sry if im a bit unclear but i have drank quite few beers already
2022-12-03 00:15:55 +0100 <davean> That entirely depends on location
2022-12-03 00:16:11 +0100 <davean> Thats not a question for which there is anything like a consistent answer across the US
2022-12-03 00:16:12 +0100 <rubin55> i was a burger-flipper in '93ish? I made 3.23 guilders an hour.. it was a great motivator to do better in life later on
2022-12-03 00:16:14 +0100Guest60(~Guest60@101.98.118.246)
2022-12-03 00:16:49 +0100 <rubin55> no idea what they do nowadays, but i'd imagine ~1000ish eur monthly net?
2022-12-03 00:17:22 +0100 <fieldbuck_> after rent?
2022-12-03 00:17:31 +0100 <rubin55> nurse is quite a bit higher at least over here
2022-12-03 00:17:51 +0100 <rubin55> after rent..? no, net salary, after tax
2022-12-03 00:19:07 +0100chele(~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 00:19:26 +0100 <rubin55> nurse here would be between about ~2000ish and ~3000ish net monthly
2022-12-03 00:19:52 +0100seydar(~seydar@154-27-113-252.starry-inc.net) (Quit: leaving)
2022-12-03 00:20:39 +0100 <rubin55> junior dev ~2500ish net i would say; senior dev depends on employment vs contracting
2022-12-03 00:20:44 +0100seydar(~seydar@154-27-113-252.starry-inc.net)
2022-12-03 00:21:17 +0100 <seydar> here's my submission for day 2 of AoC -- I'd love some feedback, particularly on how to best organize the whole rock-beats-scissors part: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/rj3bob9U
2022-12-03 00:21:20 +0100michalz(~michalz@185.246.204.93) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 00:21:22 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-12-03 00:21:59 +0100 <rubin55> and depends a lot on the field too, languages, backend/frontend, years of experience, contacts, how well one can present ones'self
2022-12-03 00:23:09 +0100 <fieldbuck_> ok ok uh what well i mean what have been told to me is that even a junior google dev earns something like 400k/year
2022-12-03 00:23:28 +0100 <fieldbuck_> but it might erroneous information
2022-12-03 00:23:31 +0100gqplox(~textual@2a02:c7c:941d:fd00:84dc:e5:8d89:ecd6)
2022-12-03 00:23:46 +0100 <gqplox> yo yo what's up guys
2022-12-03 00:23:51 +0100 <davean> fieldbuck_: I have known a Junior dev who made $350k at google, sure
2022-12-03 00:24:03 +0100 <davean> location, expertise, etc matter.
2022-12-03 00:24:16 +0100 <geekosaur> the big four (google amazon microsoft apple) are a different story entirely, yes
2022-12-03 00:24:39 +0100 <davean> geekosaur: Nah, you can get equal salary a lot of places.
2022-12-03 00:24:45 +0100 <geekosaur> it's also a great way to get burnout
2022-12-03 00:24:46 +0100 <davean> They just are in the higher class
2022-12-03 00:25:42 +0100 <monochrom> IMO the interesting question is how much money I could save per month by WFH in Cuba receiving Dubai-level income. >:)
2022-12-03 00:26:42 +0100 <fieldbuck_> i make nothing because i am still a newbie!
2022-12-03 00:27:28 +0100 <davean> monochrom: I care about my current quality of life at least a little. Need to deal with the time value of happiness since one might die at any point.
2022-12-03 00:27:39 +0100 <monochrom> But I guess you'll say "but it still depends on whether you buy cigars"
2022-12-03 00:27:43 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7137a65e1a901d19b642858.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-12-03 00:28:12 +0100 <davean> No, because thats optional :-p
2022-12-03 00:28:22 +0100 <davean> taxes and base susistence sorta aren't
2022-12-03 00:28:27 +0100 <fieldbuck_> i don't think that cuba would be the best choice but in some eastern european countries you would live like a king!
2022-12-03 00:29:02 +0100 <rubin55> I always found it strange how much difference there is in income between contracting and regular employment in europe, and have also observed how that's a little different in the US
2022-12-03 00:29:07 +0100 <gqplox> is ok it if i post my advent of code here for critique?
2022-12-03 00:29:18 +0100 <monochrom> Yes.
2022-12-03 00:29:22 +0100Xeroine(~Xeroine@user/xeroine) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-12-03 00:29:25 +0100 <gqplox> http://sprunge.us/x2vF74
2022-12-03 00:29:35 +0100 <gqplox> spoiler ^
2022-12-03 00:29:41 +0100 <gqplox> i did the opposite of code golf haha
2022-12-03 00:29:42 +0100Xeroine(~Xeroine@user/xeroine)
2022-12-03 00:30:01 +0100 <seydar> gqplox: i'm looking for critique of mine as well https://paste.tomsmeding.com/rj3bob9U
2022-12-03 00:30:21 +0100 <gqplox> oh cool
2022-12-03 00:30:48 +0100 <gqplox> (mine is for part 1 btw)
2022-12-03 00:30:53 +0100 <seydar> gqplox: oh boy. now I'm seeing how I should've done it
2022-12-03 00:30:56 +0100 <gqplox> i see you have done both
2022-12-03 00:31:23 +0100gurkenglas(~gurkengla@p548ac72e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 00:32:10 +0100 <gqplox> oh cool i didn't know about the at sing
2022-12-03 00:32:11 +0100 <seydar> gqplox: yeah, but your code is more haskellish
2022-12-03 00:32:14 +0100 <gqplox> sign* for lists
2022-12-03 00:32:31 +0100 <seydar> i didn't know there was automatic ordering for data
2022-12-03 00:32:44 +0100 <geekosaur> it's not just for lists, it lets you capture any pattern while also matching subpatterns within
2022-12-03 00:32:45 +0100 <davean> seydar: deriving is great!
2022-12-03 00:33:06 +0100beteigeuze(~Thunderbi@bl14-81-220.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 00:33:39 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-12-03 00:33:56 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 00:34:00 +0100 <seydar> gqplox: ahhh you made it as succ with a special case! smart
2022-12-03 00:34:22 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier)
2022-12-03 00:35:09 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) (Max SendQ exceeded)
2022-12-03 00:35:26 +0100 <gqplox> thank you :)
2022-12-03 00:35:40 +0100 <gqplox> im waiting to see what some of the haskell pros here have lol
2022-12-03 00:35:49 +0100 <gqplox> some map fold one liner or something crazy
2022-12-03 00:36:37 +0100 <seydar> hm. no way to get around the 6 lines defining characters to shapes and their relationships though
2022-12-03 00:37:39 +0100 <davean> seydar: I mean you can make a map
2022-12-03 00:37:44 +0100 <gqplox> yeah Im not sure about that, I guess you could do some math tricks using ord perhaps?
2022-12-03 00:37:44 +0100 <davean> or a key-value list
2022-12-03 00:38:00 +0100 <davean> Don't need lines for a replacement mapping
2022-12-03 00:40:06 +0100 <mauke> main = interact ((++ "\n") . show . sum . map score . lines); score [ord -> c1, ' ', ord -> c2] = (c2 - c1 + 2) `mod` 3 * 3 + c2 - ord 'W'
2022-12-03 00:40:09 +0100 <mauke> ^ my solution
2022-12-03 00:40:25 +0100 <mauke> only in reality it is on two lines and with more type signatures
2022-12-03 00:40:43 +0100 <gqplox> hahaha, and there it is
2022-12-03 00:41:18 +0100titibandit(~titibandi@xdsl-78-35-173-119.nc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 00:41:43 +0100fieldbuck_(~fieldbuck@mobile-access-d51ce0-248.dhcp.inet.fi) ()
2022-12-03 00:42:37 +0100 <mauke> part 2 has: score [ord -> c1, ' ', ord -> c2] = (c2 - ord 'X') * 3 + (c1 + c2 + 2) `mod` 3 + 1
2022-12-03 00:43:56 +0100kadobanana(~mud@user/kadoban) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2022-12-03 00:44:17 +0100 <seydar> mauke: wait what's going on in score [ord -> c1...] as the function definition
2022-12-03 00:44:27 +0100 <c_wraith> those are view patterns
2022-12-03 00:44:30 +0100 <mauke> {-# LANGUAGE ViewPatterns #-}
2022-12-03 00:44:35 +0100 <seydar> it looks like you're describing a function as an argument
2022-12-03 00:45:00 +0100 <mauke> "bind c1 to the value, but first pipe it through ord"
2022-12-03 00:45:03 +0100 <c_wraith> seydar: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/view_patterns.html
2022-12-03 00:45:04 +0100 <seydar> view patterns, huh. sounds like some perl carryover
2022-12-03 00:45:52 +0100gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-12-03 00:45:54 +0100 <c_wraith> in general, the ghc user guide is fantastic. Not to be missed for your questions about stuff GHC does.
2022-12-03 00:46:25 +0100 <Guest60> Hi, I'm new to using arrows and wondering if they're a good tool for mapping Eithers?
2022-12-03 00:46:29 +0100 <seydar> this is like the lovechild of APL and perl
2022-12-03 00:46:30 +0100Topsi(~Topsi@dyndsl-031-150-076-205.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
2022-12-03 00:47:15 +0100 <seydar> oh wait now that i've read more than 2 sentences on the page, these seem pretty cool
2022-12-03 00:47:19 +0100 <monochrom> Yes.
2022-12-03 00:47:46 +0100 <c_wraith> Guest60: they work, but Bifunctor is probably an easier abstraction in general.
2022-12-03 00:48:11 +0100 <c_wraith> and Data.Bifunctor has been in base for a while now
2022-12-03 00:48:38 +0100 <c_wraith> Arrow has a lot of weird stuff.
2022-12-03 00:49:16 +0100 <Guest60> In my particular case I have a sum type for success and error and I want to convert an either into the success or error. So you would use bifunctor for this?
2022-12-03 00:49:34 +0100 <c_wraith> sure
2022-12-03 00:49:36 +0100 <c_wraith> :t bimap
2022-12-03 00:49:37 +0100 <lambdabot> Bifunctor p => (a -> b) -> (c -> d) -> p a c -> p b d
2022-12-03 00:50:03 +0100 <c_wraith> so like... bimap mkError mkSuccess
2022-12-03 00:50:10 +0100neightchan(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 00:50:10 +0100 <mauke> my first idea for doing the AoC exercise was to generate a score lookup table for all possible lines
2022-12-03 00:50:37 +0100 <mauke> I kept spotting patterns I could use to generate the table more succinctly
2022-12-03 00:51:01 +0100 <mauke> until I was down to a single calculation, which I then inlined and scrapped the table
2022-12-03 00:51:05 +0100 <c_wraith> Guest60: oh, nevermind. actually, I'd just use either
2022-12-03 00:51:11 +0100 <c_wraith> :t either -- Guest60
2022-12-03 00:51:12 +0100 <lambdabot> (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> Either a b -> c
2022-12-03 00:51:26 +0100 <c_wraith> Becuase you want to *replace* the Either with your own type
2022-12-03 00:51:57 +0100 <Guest60> ah yeah, I looked at that one. It's better because either maps to a c as opposed to a p of b d?
2022-12-03 00:52:02 +0100 <c_wraith> exactly
2022-12-03 00:52:10 +0100 <Guest60> Because b and d are summed to c, might as well use either
2022-12-03 00:52:36 +0100 <mauke> :t either ?mkError ?mkSuccess
2022-12-03 00:52:37 +0100 <lambdabot> (?mkError::a -> c, ?mkSuccess::b -> c) => Either a b -> c
2022-12-03 00:53:26 +0100kadobanana(~mud@user/kadoban)
2022-12-03 00:59:58 +0100 <seydar> i took inspiration from gqplox and redid it to use shapes, but it's now longer and uglier than ever. am i missing something? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/NK1A9M7g
2022-12-03 01:01:12 +0100 <mauke> don't need splitOn " "; can just use words instead
2022-12-03 01:01:37 +0100 <mauke> repeated 'us ==' is redundant and could be replaced by pattern matching
2022-12-03 01:02:52 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-152.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2022-12-03 01:04:04 +0100 <mauke> getMove is arithmetible
2022-12-03 01:05:17 +0100 <mauke> getMove (them, us) = (them, toEnum ((fromEnum them + fromEnum us - 1) `mod` 3))
2022-12-03 01:06:16 +0100 <seydar> ah good move
2022-12-03 01:08:03 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-03 01:08:16 +0100 <mauke> scoreOutcome (them, us) = (fromEnum us - fromEnum them + 1) `mod` 3 * 3
2022-12-03 01:08:55 +0100sammelweis(~quassel@mobile-107-92-122-90.mycingular.net)
2022-12-03 01:09:50 +0100 <segfaultfizzbuzz> geekosaur: ah interesting i didn't know about setting, thanks
2022-12-03 01:09:53 +0100 <mauke> that (... + 1) `mod` 3 thing basically encodes the betterShape relationship
2022-12-03 01:11:18 +0100 <Guest60> If you have a type `a b` is it implied with `Show (a b)` that `b` has the `Show` typeclass?
2022-12-03 01:11:26 +0100 <c_wraith> no
2022-12-03 01:12:19 +0100 <c_wraith> However, you can have something like Show (Foo a) where the Show instance for Foo looks like instance Show a => Show (Foo a) ....
2022-12-03 01:12:26 +0100 <mauke> data Proxy b = Proxy; instance Show (Proxy b) where { show Proxy = "Proxy" }
2022-12-03 01:12:46 +0100 <c_wraith> If you have a case like that, ghc will infer the transitive dependency
2022-12-03 01:12:49 +0100Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@108.175.84.104) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 01:13:15 +0100 <Guest60> Ah yep, I was confused about a "Rendudant constraint" warning on the show implementation but its because I already specified the constraint on `b` in the instance declaration. Doh
2022-12-03 01:13:31 +0100 <Guest60> Hence the inference
2022-12-03 01:13:33 +0100accord(uid568320@id-568320.hampstead.irccloud.com)
2022-12-03 01:14:09 +0100 <mauke> .oO( because of the implication )
2022-12-03 01:15:00 +0100 <gqplox> okay seydar i've done part two
2022-12-03 01:15:29 +0100 <gqplox> http://sprunge.us/i6pvj9
2022-12-03 01:16:03 +0100 <seydar> mauke: thank you thank you
2022-12-03 01:16:14 +0100 <gqplox> i did some reading on data classes today that's probably why i used them so much haha
2022-12-03 01:16:58 +0100 <seydar> gqplox: ugh your code is so much better than mine. mine is still 58 lines
2022-12-03 01:17:55 +0100 <seydar> the win lose draw datatype is much cleaner than i thought it would be
2022-12-03 01:17:58 +0100 <gqplox> well your code solves both cases i wrote two separate programs so total yours has fewer lines ;)
2022-12-03 01:18:10 +0100 <seydar> and it solves the problem of treating all letters as moves
2022-12-03 01:18:12 +0100 <gqplox> but i didn't really try to code golf i was trying to use data types
2022-12-03 01:18:35 +0100 <mauke> parseShape :: Char -> Shape; parseShape c = toEnum (fromEnum c - fromEnum 'A')
2022-12-03 01:18:52 +0100 <gqplox> i learnt about the record syntax its quite cool how you can change it
2022-12-03 01:19:14 +0100 <gqplox> like getName p = name p if i make the data with record
2022-12-03 01:19:45 +0100 <dsal> gqplox: I wouldn't model a thing that can only have two items as a list.
2022-12-03 01:20:14 +0100 <gqplox> yeah I agree
2022-12-03 01:20:19 +0100 <gqplox> for the [[String]] in solve?
2022-12-03 01:20:43 +0100 <gqplox> I did it because it was easy to parse the input with the map words $ lines but im sure there is a better way
2022-12-03 01:21:32 +0100 <dsal> You could still parse it that way if you wanted to, but that doesn't need to escape the parser.
2022-12-03 01:21:54 +0100 <gqplox> sorry what do you mean by that?
2022-12-03 01:22:29 +0100 <dsal> > let p s = case words s of [a,b] -> Just (a,b); _ -> Nothing in (p "a b", p "a b c")
2022-12-03 01:22:31 +0100 <lambdabot> (Just ("a","b"),Nothing)
2022-12-03 01:22:34 +0100 <mauke> case words s of [a, b] -> (a, b); _ -> error ("Well, I certainly wasn't expecting this: " ++ show s)
2022-12-03 01:22:35 +0100 <gqplox> and what would you suggest? have it as a [[(String, String)]?
2022-12-03 01:22:47 +0100 <dsal> They're not strings either, though.
2022-12-03 01:23:02 +0100 <dsal> > let p s = case words s of [[a],[b]] -> Just (a,b); _ -> Nothing in (p "a b", p "a b c", p "a bee")
2022-12-03 01:23:04 +0100 <lambdabot> (Just ('a','b'),Nothing,Nothing)
2022-12-03 01:24:02 +0100 <mauke> in my version I didn't even bother with 'words'. I just match the whole line against [a, ' ', b] :-)
2022-12-03 01:24:41 +0100 <mauke> means it will abort on any malformed input, but at that point there is no good way to proceed anyway, so :shrug:
2022-12-03 01:25:10 +0100 <dsal> I used megaparsec because I like to spend more time than necessary.
2022-12-03 01:25:47 +0100 <dsal> > let p s = case s of [a, ' ', b] -> Just (a,b); _ -> Nothing in (p "a b", p "a b c", p "a bee")
2022-12-03 01:25:48 +0100 <lambdabot> (Just ('a','b'),Nothing,Nothing)
2022-12-03 01:26:51 +0100 <gqplox> would you mind sending over the complete program mauke or dsal please?
2022-12-03 01:27:07 +0100 <dsal> Based on yours?
2022-12-03 01:27:21 +0100sammelweis(~quassel@mobile-107-92-122-90.mycingular.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-12-03 01:27:29 +0100sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10)
2022-12-03 01:27:29 +0100 <gqplox> if that wouldn't be too much troubled that'd be great, using your method of parsing
2022-12-03 01:27:52 +0100 <dsal> Sec.
2022-12-03 01:28:06 +0100 <dsal> Oh, I'm using megaparsec. Unless you're wanting to learn megaparsec, don't do that. :)
2022-12-03 01:28:47 +0100 <dsal> hmm... yours is already partial.
2022-12-03 01:28:50 +0100 <gqplox> Oh right, yeah I only have the stdlib (prelude?)
2022-12-03 01:28:53 +0100 <dsal> So I'll lean into that a sec.
2022-12-03 01:29:13 +0100 <mauke> my full code: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/u5htAZuJ
2022-12-03 01:29:50 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-12-03 01:29:58 +0100 <mauke> parsing is done with 'lines' and the pattern match in 'score' for each line
2022-12-03 01:30:48 +0100moneypolo
2022-12-03 01:31:08 +0100 <gqplox> oh cool
2022-12-03 01:31:22 +0100 <gqplox> what does ord -> c1 do?
2022-12-03 01:31:27 +0100 <mauke> that's a view pattern
2022-12-03 01:31:37 +0100 <dsal> :t ord
2022-12-03 01:31:38 +0100 <lambdabot> Char -> Int
2022-12-03 01:31:48 +0100 <mauke> it says: take the incoming value, pipe it through the 'ord' function, then pattern match the result against 'c1'
2022-12-03 01:32:15 +0100 <gqplox> oh right nice
2022-12-03 01:32:30 +0100 <mauke> in my version, Shape has been replaced by its Enum instance (i.e. instead of Rock | Paper | Scissors I have 0 | 1 | 2)
2022-12-03 01:32:34 +0100 <gqplox> so it saves you having to write ord c1 each time or doing where c1 = ord?
2022-12-03 01:32:38 +0100 <mauke> right
2022-12-03 01:33:06 +0100 <mauke> also, "parsing" the characters is done with fromEnum (which is ord for Chars)
2022-12-03 01:34:04 +0100 <gqplox> oh cool
2022-12-03 01:34:07 +0100seydar(~seydar@154-27-113-252.starry-inc.net) (Quit: leaving)
2022-12-03 01:34:07 +0100 <gqplox> yeah that makes sense
2022-12-03 01:34:16 +0100 <mauke> so: shapeFromChar c = toEnum (fromEnum c - fromEnum 'A')
2022-12-03 01:34:37 +0100 <mauke> only I don't have the outer toEnum because I never actually use the Shape values
2022-12-03 01:34:46 +0100 <dsal> This is minimal changes to yours. https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/dUC7zGuy/day2.hs
2022-12-03 01:34:56 +0100 <mauke> and I was too lazy to type fromEnum, so I used ord instead
2022-12-03 01:34:59 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 01:35:02 +0100 <dsal> I'd avoid partial here, though.
2022-12-03 01:36:00 +0100 <mauke> also I never actually need to subtract ord 'A' because it is merged with the rest of the calculation
2022-12-03 01:36:35 +0100 <mauke> > (-1) `mod` 3
2022-12-03 01:36:36 +0100 <lambdabot> 2
2022-12-03 01:36:38 +0100 <mauke> good
2022-12-03 01:37:37 +0100 <dsal> Here's a variation of yours that doesn't have partial functions. https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/jLoy9DIF/total.hs
2022-12-03 01:38:58 +0100 <mauke> I think that's strictly worse than the partial version
2022-12-03 01:39:04 +0100 <dsal> Why's that?
2022-12-03 01:39:15 +0100 <mauke> it silently produces wrong results for malformed input
2022-12-03 01:39:22 +0100 <mauke> my version just crashes
2022-12-03 01:39:33 +0100 <dsal> It returns 0 which I guess is silently wrong.
2022-12-03 01:39:51 +0100 <mauke> yeah, it pretends it has a sensible answer when it really doesn't
2022-12-03 01:39:59 +0100sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-03 01:40:05 +0100 <EvanR> if you never pass in a bad input to a partial function, it's not partial xD
2022-12-03 01:40:07 +0100 <dsal> In practice, I'd push the Maybe all the way down.
2022-12-03 01:40:27 +0100sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10)
2022-12-03 01:40:52 +0100 <dsal> So `part2 = fmap solve . traverse parse . lines <$> readFile "input/day2"`
2022-12-03 01:41:00 +0100 <dsal> In any case, partial functions just hurt later.
2022-12-03 01:41:49 +0100 <mauke> you could argue that in some cases the partial function is still better
2022-12-03 01:42:37 +0100 <mauke> specifically, if something goes wrong, the partial function will crash with a useful error message that tells you which part of the program couldn't proceed as expected
2022-12-03 01:42:53 +0100 <mauke> with the Maybe version you just end up with Nothing
2022-12-03 01:42:57 +0100 <mauke> and no idea what went wrong
2022-12-03 01:43:27 +0100 <dsal> Well, I guess you could use either, then. https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/FRqgV2Qn/either.hs
2022-12-03 01:43:52 +0100 <dsal> I can't argue that crashing is good, though. Crashing means I have angry customers.
2022-12-03 01:44:08 +0100 <mauke> why?
2022-12-03 01:44:21 +0100 <geekosaur> AoC is a different story there, I think
2022-12-03 01:44:50 +0100 <mauke> "crashing" is implicitly bounded by process structure
2022-12-03 01:44:57 +0100 <mauke> don't put all your eggs in one process :-)
2022-12-03 01:45:35 +0100 <dsal> Well, I don't use erlang at work right now and microservices are almost always a bad idea.
2022-12-03 01:46:25 +0100 <dsal> This is where using megaparsec is pretty nice, though. It's quite clear about where and how the input doesn't match my assumptions.
2022-12-03 01:47:02 +0100 <gqplox> Thank you very mcuh dsal
2022-12-03 01:47:15 +0100 <gqplox> the parse is way nicery
2022-12-03 01:47:19 +0100 <gqplox> nicer
2022-12-03 01:47:28 +0100 <gqplox> uncurry is very cool too
2022-12-03 01:47:51 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-002-023.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-12-03 01:48:47 +0100 <dsal> Apparently there's some controversy around partial functions, but it's not *super* controversial to say "partial functions are bad and should be avoided"
2022-12-03 01:49:14 +0100 <dsal> It's not uncommon that Maybe loses some information you want later, but sometimes it's just not possible to get anything useful from it.
2022-12-03 01:49:51 +0100 <gqplox> right, I guess in this example it's ok since the input is guaranteed to be good but for actual code you should avoid partial functions?
2022-12-03 01:50:34 +0100 <dsal> A lot of aoc is practice for me, and I don't want to practice making runtime errors. :)
2022-12-03 01:50:36 +0100 <gqplox> so the parse you wrote works properly for a bad case but I guess in my parseShape/Outcome I could've also done parseShape _ = error "can't parse"
2022-12-03 01:50:41 +0100 <dsal> Depends on what you want to get out of it.
2022-12-03 01:51:14 +0100 <gqplox> what do you mean maybe loses some information you want later?
2022-12-03 01:51:39 +0100 <dsal> In the Either example, if something doesn't work, it tells you what didn't work. In the Maybe example, it just tells you it didn't work.
2022-12-03 01:52:08 +0100 <gqplox> Oh cool I didn't even see you posted that
2022-12-03 01:52:09 +0100 <dsal> So if you mangle your input and include a line or character that you're not expecting, it's the difference between `Nothing` and `Left "can't parse outcome 'W'"`
2022-12-03 01:52:15 +0100 <gqplox> Yeah that's much more robust
2022-12-03 01:52:16 +0100nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-12-03 01:52:30 +0100 <gqplox> Cool
2022-12-03 01:53:03 +0100 <dsal> I don't bother most of the time.
2022-12-03 01:53:10 +0100 <mauke> it all depends on context
2022-12-03 01:53:30 +0100tremon(~tremon@83-84-18-241.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: getting boxed in)
2022-12-03 01:53:33 +0100 <hpc> there's a context-free grammar joke in there somewhere :D
2022-12-03 01:53:54 +0100 <mauke> partial functions should be avoided if there's something sensible you can do instead
2022-12-03 01:54:09 +0100 <mauke> but you should not hide failures just to keep the program going
2022-12-03 01:54:12 +0100 <mauke> that way lies PHP
2022-12-03 01:54:15 +0100 <gqplox> I think i'll head to bed now. thanks for taking the time to show me what you meant by the parsing, I understand now :) cya guys
2022-12-03 01:54:36 +0100 <hpc> there's always something sensible to do, as well imo
2022-12-03 01:55:00 +0100 <mauke> yes, it just depends on how much effort you're willing to put in
2022-12-03 01:57:09 +0100nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 01:59:10 +0100mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5ce3:8500::efb)
2022-12-03 01:59:17 +0100mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5ce3:8500::efb) (Client Quit)
2022-12-03 01:59:36 +0100 <dsal> In this case, the program is defined for the specified inputs. When inputs don't meet specification, returning `Nothing` is sensible. While a toy executable you're running for yourself might be acceptable to crash with a bad pattern match error, people ship libraries that do this. `Nothing` is a better user experience than "this program crashes and I can't do anything about it."
2022-12-03 02:00:43 +0100 <dsal> I think I experienced something like that last time I tried to use regex for whatever reason. It's partial on the input it's matching. My program was crashing on data I was reading over the network if it happened to have the right sequence of bytes.
2022-12-03 02:01:00 +0100 <mauke> that's a good point
2022-12-03 02:01:11 +0100 <mauke> libraries aren't allowed to crash the main program
2022-12-03 02:01:14 +0100 <mauke> that's illegal
2022-12-03 02:03:30 +0100Buliarous(~gypsydang@46.232.210.139)
2022-12-03 02:04:12 +0100Guest60(~Guest60@101.98.118.246) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-12-03 02:05:48 +0100 <gqplox> print $ solve $ map parse $ lines input
2022-12-03 02:05:48 +0100 <gqplox> (print . solve . map parse . lines) input
2022-12-03 02:05:56 +0100 <gqplox> which is preferred?
2022-12-03 02:08:11 +0100 <mauke> print . solve . map parse . lines $ input -- compromise :-)
2022-12-03 02:08:17 +0100 <dsal> Yeah, I'd go with that ^
2022-12-03 02:08:36 +0100 <dsal> I do the second one sometimes. I don't like throwing $ all over the place, though. My code's cheap.
2022-12-03 02:08:49 +0100 <gqplox> ahh nice
2022-12-03 02:08:53 +0100 <gqplox> i don't know why i didn't think of that
2022-12-03 02:09:25 +0100 <dsal> Though I'd probably not mix the print and other stuff just because it makes things harder to test.
2022-12-03 02:09:47 +0100 <dsal> I don't have main on these, though. My actual execution is `unit_part2 = assertEqual "" 10349 =<< part2`
2022-12-03 02:09:54 +0100 <mauke> the . version has the advantage that you can extract subexpressions (and make e.g. `map parse . lines` its own function)
2022-12-03 02:10:08 +0100 <mauke> `map parse $ lines` is just an error
2022-12-03 02:10:16 +0100Topsi(~Topsi@dyndsl-031-150-076-205.ewe-ip-backbone.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-12-03 02:10:27 +0100 <gqplox> oh right nice that's a good point
2022-12-03 02:11:24 +0100 <gqplox> also it might be trivial but generally which way to order functions?
2022-12-03 02:11:37 +0100 <dsal> total ordering of functions is the best
2022-12-03 02:11:40 +0100 <gqplox> like in here for example, http://sprunge.us/npXAnG. is it good to keep main at the top
2022-12-03 02:11:52 +0100 <gqplox> oh i meant positions oops
2022-12-03 02:11:55 +0100 <dsal> I've always done main at the bottom, but it doesn't matter unless you use TH
2022-12-03 02:12:05 +0100 <gqplox> TH?
2022-12-03 02:12:28 +0100 <dsal> TemplateHaskell
2022-12-03 02:12:45 +0100 <dsal> It breaks the file into chunks with boundaries defined by TH expressions and you can't refer to stuff in The Future
2022-12-03 02:13:10 +0100 <geekosaur> because it runs code at compile time, so it hasn't seen the rest of the file yet
2022-12-03 02:14:38 +0100 <dsal> > let options = zip "abc" [1..] <> zip "xyz" [1..] in lookup 'y' options
2022-12-03 02:14:40 +0100 <lambdabot> Just 2
2022-12-03 02:17:16 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-152.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2022-12-03 02:17:31 +0100gqplox(~textual@2a02:c7c:941d:fd00:84dc:e5:8d89:ecd6) (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-12-03 02:18:05 +0100 <dsal> > let options = zip "abc" [1..] <> zip "xyz" [1..]; lu x = maybe (Left $ "wtf is " <> show x) Right (lookup x options) in lu 'y'
2022-12-03 02:18:07 +0100 <lambdabot> Right 2
2022-12-03 02:18:21 +0100 <dsal> > let options = zip "abc" [1..] <> zip "xyz" [1..]; lu x = maybe (Left $ "wtf is " <> show x) Right (lookup x options) in lu 'w'
2022-12-03 02:18:22 +0100 <lambdabot> Left "wtf is 'w'"
2022-12-03 02:20:28 +0100 <dsal> > let options = zip "abc" [minBound..] <> zip "xyz" [minBound..]; lu x = maybe (Left $ "wtf is " <> show x) Right (lookup x options) in lu 'y' :: Either String Shape
2022-12-03 02:20:29 +0100 <lambdabot> Right Paper
2022-12-03 02:20:30 +0100gqplox(~textual@2a02:c7c:941d:fd00:84dc:e5:8d89:ecd6)
2022-12-03 02:20:54 +0100fieldbuck_(~fieldbuck@mobile-access-c1d2a3-227.dhcp.inet.fi)
2022-12-03 02:21:02 +0100 <fieldbuck_> i am so angry because you don't live in midwest
2022-12-03 02:21:25 +0100jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 02:21:37 +0100 <tomokojun> what is lambdabot doing?
2022-12-03 02:22:06 +0100 <fieldbuck_> he is being a donald trump supporter
2022-12-03 02:22:22 +0100 <dsal> tomokojun: gqplox Has a partial pattern matching function for parsing characters to shapes. I'm just making a list and using lookup.
2022-12-03 02:22:51 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-002-023.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-12-03 02:23:08 +0100 <dsal> > let options = zip "abc" [minBound..] <> zip "xyz" [minBound..]; lu x = lookup x options in lu 'y' :: Maybe Shape
2022-12-03 02:23:10 +0100 <lambdabot> Just Paper
2022-12-03 02:23:15 +0100 <dsal> Bit easier without the Either.
2022-12-03 02:23:54 +0100 <fieldbuck_> that pattern matching would be much easier to write in c or c++'
2022-12-03 02:24:10 +0100 <dsal> > let options = foldMap (\xs -> zip xs [minBound..]) ["abc", "xyz"]; lu x = lookup x options in lu 'y' :: Maybe Shape -- this is a little nicer
2022-12-03 02:24:12 +0100 <lambdabot> Just Paper
2022-12-03 02:24:45 +0100ChanServ+o geekosaur
2022-12-03 02:24:46 +0100 <dsal> > let options = foldMap (flip zip [minBound..]) ["abc", "xyz"]; lu x = lookup x options in lu 'y' :: Maybe Shape -- this is a little nicer
2022-12-03 02:24:47 +0100 <lambdabot> Just Paper
2022-12-03 02:25:09 +0100 <dsal> gqplox is supposed to be asleep and not seeing this anyway.
2022-12-03 02:25:13 +0100 <fieldbuck_> EVEN CSHARP HAS MAYBE KEYWORD
2022-12-03 02:25:23 +0100geekosaur+b *!*@mobile-access-c1d2a3-227.dhcp.inet.fi
2022-12-03 02:25:23 +0100fieldbuck_geekosaur (fieldbuck_)
2022-12-03 02:26:01 +0100geekosaur-o geekosaur
2022-12-03 02:26:53 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-03 02:28:51 +0100Guest60(~Guest60@101.98.118.246)
2022-12-03 02:28:59 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com)
2022-12-03 02:28:59 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
2022-12-03 02:28:59 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2022-12-03 02:29:01 +0100 <Guest60> Suppose I have a decoder for format A and a decoder for format B, and both decoders return Eithers; how can I compose these decoders so that upon failure, the 2nd decoder will be tried?
2022-12-03 02:29:13 +0100 <geekosaur> <|>
2022-12-03 02:30:48 +0100 <Guest60> Oh wow, that's extremely simple.
2022-12-03 02:31:01 +0100 <geekosaur> more generally, asum takes a list of such and returns the first successful result
2022-12-03 02:32:46 +0100gqplox(~textual@2a02:c7c:941d:fd00:84dc:e5:8d89:ecd6) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2022-12-03 02:33:19 +0100 <Guest60> very handy, How is <|> expressed for Either?
2022-12-03 02:33:52 +0100 <geekosaur> > Left "oops" <|> Right 5
2022-12-03 02:33:54 +0100 <lambdabot> Right 5
2022-12-03 02:34:05 +0100 <geekosaur> otherwise I don't understand the question
2022-12-03 02:34:43 +0100 <geekosaur> `<|>` works for anything with an Alternative instance, including `Either String`
2022-12-03 02:35:28 +0100 <Guest60> Sorry, looking at the Applicative instance, it doesn't seem like it requires a <|> definition. And looking at the Data.Either package it doesn't explicitly implement the Alternative typeclass. So I'm wondering how that all fits together.
2022-12-03 02:35:53 +0100ChanServ+o litharge
2022-12-03 02:35:53 +0100litharge-bo *!*@mobile-access-c1d2a3-227.dhcp.inet.fi litharge
2022-12-03 02:36:24 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-002-023.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-12-03 02:37:46 +0100 <dsal> Hmm... Either lost some power in the past. I wonder if that's part of it.
2022-12-03 02:41:08 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-002-023.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-12-03 02:41:35 +0100 <geekosaur> actually I don't see anything Either-related for Alternative. so I'm not sure how that worked either
2022-12-03 02:41:41 +0100 <geekosaur> :t (<|>)
2022-12-03 02:41:42 +0100 <lambdabot> Alternative f => f a -> f a -> f a
2022-12-03 02:42:00 +0100 <dsal> Oh, I guess that's not a thing. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/44472008/why-is-there-no-alternative-instance-for-either-but-a…
2022-12-03 02:42:11 +0100 <dsal> This is something I always expect to be there and then am surprised when I can't find it.
2022-12-03 02:42:20 +0100tabaqui(~root@88.231.62.215) (Quit: WeeChat 3.7.1)
2022-12-03 02:42:55 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2022-12-03 02:43:56 +0100 <dsal> Oh, `Alternative` has `empty`
2022-12-03 02:44:34 +0100 <geekosaur> yeh
2022-12-03 02:44:56 +0100 <geekosaur> I thought it required a monoid anyway but that's at the wrong level for this
2022-12-03 02:45:36 +0100 <dsal> So, there's Alt.
2022-12-03 02:45:40 +0100 <dsal> :t <!>
2022-12-03 02:45:41 +0100 <lambdabot> error: parse error on input ‘<!>’
2022-12-03 02:45:44 +0100 <dsal> :t (<!>)
2022-12-03 02:45:45 +0100 <lambdabot> error:
2022-12-03 02:45:45 +0100 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: <!>
2022-12-03 02:45:45 +0100 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant one of these:
2022-12-03 02:45:49 +0100 <dsal> lerrn
2022-12-03 02:46:07 +0100 <dsal> Oh, that's semigroupoids? Why did I think I had that in base.
2022-12-03 02:46:22 +0100 <geekosaur> people have a lot of wishful thinking about that 🙂
2022-12-03 02:46:42 +0100 <dsal> Well, if you bring in semigroupoids, you get Alt which is defined for Either and will then do the above out of the box.
2022-12-03 02:48:04 +0100 <Guest60> Interesting, just had a read of the post. I think I kind of understand it, an empty either doesn't make sense but I also don't fully understand why alternative is defined in terms of empty.
2022-12-03 02:48:40 +0100 <dsal> Sometimes there's no alternative.
2022-12-03 02:49:09 +0100 <geekosaur> also, it's in part intended for parsers (hence `some` and `many`) and you need a null parser sometimes
2022-12-03 02:49:49 +0100 <dsal> That's why it makes sense for Alt to be in semigroupoids because Alternative is kind of like Monoid where Alt is like Semigroup.
2022-12-03 02:50:46 +0100 <Guest60> okay that makes sense. How would you implement the alt logic using base?
2022-12-03 02:52:16 +0100 <dsal> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/semigroupoids-5.3.7/docs/src/Data.Functor.Alt.html#line-188
2022-12-03 02:52:37 +0100 <dsal> You could just write that function and call it <!> and you'd be done.
2022-12-03 02:54:43 +0100 <Guest60> seems obvious when you look at it haha, thanks
2022-12-03 02:59:25 +0100 <EvanR> :t empty
2022-12-03 02:59:26 +0100 <lambdabot> Alternative f => f a
2022-12-03 03:00:43 +0100 <dsal> > empty :: Either String Int
2022-12-03 03:00:45 +0100 <lambdabot> Left ""
2022-12-03 03:00:55 +0100 <dsal> You could write an Alternative for `Either String`
2022-12-03 03:01:26 +0100 <dsal> > empty :: Either Shape Int
2022-12-03 03:01:27 +0100 <lambdabot> error:
2022-12-03 03:01:27 +0100 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Control.Monad.Trans.Error.Error Shape)
2022-12-03 03:01:27 +0100 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘empty’
2022-12-03 03:01:41 +0100 <dsal> oooh. There's a clue.
2022-12-03 03:01:45 +0100 <dsal> > empty :: Either Int Int
2022-12-03 03:01:46 +0100 <lambdabot> error:
2022-12-03 03:01:46 +0100 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Control.Monad.Trans.Error.Error Int)
2022-12-03 03:01:46 +0100 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘empty’
2022-12-03 03:01:59 +0100ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-03 03:02:45 +0100 <dsal> Yeah, that orphans the Alternative instance. It's deprecated and another thing I want sometimes.
2022-12-03 03:02:46 +0100 <EvanR> Alternative might be more widely applicable if it didn't have empty
2022-12-03 03:03:15 +0100 <dsal> Yeah, that's basically wherefore Alt.
2022-12-03 03:03:23 +0100 <dsal> It seems to have taken people a while to figure out that smaller is better.
2022-12-03 03:04:06 +0100ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2022-12-03 03:05:49 +0100 <dsal> I don't even know how to think about `some` and `many` most of the time
2022-12-03 03:05:53 +0100 <dsal> > some :: Maybe Int
2022-12-03 03:05:54 +0100 <lambdabot> error:
2022-12-03 03:05:54 +0100 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Maybe Int’
2022-12-03 03:05:54 +0100 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘f0 a0 -> f0 [a0]’
2022-12-03 03:06:35 +0100 <dsal> > some (Just 1) :: Maybe [Int]
2022-12-03 03:06:37 +0100 <lambdabot> *Exception: <<loop>>
2022-12-03 03:07:24 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-002-023.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-12-03 03:08:20 +0100tinwood(~tinwood@canonical/tinwood) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 03:10:46 +0100 <pavonia> What do you do with the Advent of Code leaderboard code in the topic?
2022-12-03 03:10:51 +0100razetime(~quassel@49.207.211.219)
2022-12-03 03:11:20 +0100tinwood(~tinwood@general.default.akavanagh.uk0.bigv.io)
2022-12-03 03:11:20 +0100tinwood(~tinwood@general.default.akavanagh.uk0.bigv.io) (Changing host)
2022-12-03 03:11:20 +0100tinwood(~tinwood@canonical/tinwood)
2022-12-03 03:11:31 +0100 <dsal> paste it into https://adventofcode.com/2022/leaderboard/private
2022-12-03 03:11:41 +0100 <EvanR> if you click Leaderboard then Private Leaderboard, you get a box to paste it into
2022-12-03 03:12:58 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-002-023.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 03:13:29 +0100 <pavonia> I'm redirected to https://adventofcode.com/2022/leaderboard when clicking on that link
2022-12-03 03:13:54 +0100 <pavonia> And I don't see any prvate link or similar on that page
2022-12-03 03:14:08 +0100 <dsal> Are you logged in?
2022-12-03 03:14:34 +0100 <pavonia> No
2022-12-03 03:15:03 +0100 <pavonia> Can't you access them without being registered?
2022-12-03 03:15:20 +0100 <geekosaur> presumably that's what "private" means
2022-12-03 03:15:47 +0100 <EvanR> if you're not logged in, how does it know who to add to the leaderboard
2022-12-03 03:16:08 +0100 <EvanR> dsal, Alternative makes complete sense now that I read this SO answer on the subject https://stackoverflow.com/questions/13080606/confused-by-the-meaning-of-the-alternative-type-class…
2022-12-03 03:17:09 +0100 <pavonia> geekosaur: I see
2022-12-03 03:23:36 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-002-023.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-12-03 03:25:44 +0100 <dsal> EvanR: that's a lot of good reading. Making some sense. I still don't know how to make sense of some and many yet, though.
2022-12-03 03:25:53 +0100 <EvanR> I was joking
2022-12-03 03:26:26 +0100 <EvanR> it's 10 pages of algebra with 3 instances of assertions that "it's useful"
2022-12-03 03:26:34 +0100 <EvanR> without much to back it up
2022-12-03 03:31:45 +0100ddellacosta(~ddellacos@89.45.224.153)
2022-12-03 03:31:55 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-12-03 03:34:30 +0100 <EvanR> many (randomRIO (0,1) >>= \x -> case x of 0 -> putChar 'a'; 1 -> empty)
2022-12-03 03:34:48 +0100 <EvanR> aaaaaaaaaa[(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),()] -- winner winner chicken dinner
2022-12-03 03:36:14 +0100 <EvanR> many (Just 'a'), using the same logic, never ends and never yields anything sooner than that
2022-12-03 03:36:49 +0100 <geekosaur> right
2022-12-03 03:37:08 +0100 <geekosaur> I mentioned earlier that they make the most sense in the context of parsers
2022-12-03 03:38:08 +0100 <EvanR> s/never ends/never fails, so never ends/
2022-12-03 03:38:13 +0100 <geekosaur> `many` keeps doing <|> until the parser fails, `some` requires it to succeed at least once before failing
2022-12-03 03:38:27 +0100 <geekosaur> er, kinda the opposite of <|> I guess
2022-12-03 03:38:41 +0100 <geekosaur> and collects the successes
2022-12-03 03:41:37 +0100 <EvanR> but... IO is clearly collecting the successes and would return an infinite list if you let it. Why doesn't Just 'a'...
2022-12-03 03:42:41 +0100 <EvanR> is there something wrong with this theory of collecting the successes
2022-12-03 03:42:46 +0100 <geekosaur> its instance doesn't know when it would fail (throw an exception, iirc)
2022-12-03 03:42:57 +0100 <geekosaur> Just 'a' will never fail
2022-12-03 03:43:38 +0100razetime(~quassel@49.207.211.219) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-12-03 03:43:55 +0100 <geekosaur> I don't know what the implementation is that causes it to <<loop>> though
2022-12-03 03:44:04 +0100 <EvanR> oh, my IO is not returning an infinite list after all, if it doesn't ever fail
2022-12-03 03:44:47 +0100 <dsal> geekosaur: ohh. The fails part is the part that I wasn't thinking of. So basically it must be required for Maybe but it can't do anything useful.
2022-12-03 03:44:48 +0100 <EvanR> IO and Maybe aren't very lazy
2022-12-03 03:45:03 +0100 <EvanR> here
2022-12-03 03:45:35 +0100 <EvanR> the full list is only available upon failure
2022-12-03 03:45:49 +0100 <EvanR> the beginning of the list even
2022-12-03 03:46:22 +0100 <dsal> It just seems weird to me that it must not be useful.
2022-12-03 03:46:44 +0100 <geekosaur[m]> > empty:: IO ()
2022-12-03 03:46:45 +0100 <lambdabot> <IO ()>
2022-12-03 03:46:59 +0100 <geekosaur[m]> Oh right
2022-12-03 03:47:27 +0100 <EvanR> user error (mzero)
2022-12-03 03:58:18 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-002-023.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 04:00:05 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-12-03 04:01:21 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-12-03 04:02:15 +0100azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2022-12-03 04:07:09 +0100haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 04:07:19 +0100 <Guest60> Is there any way I can remove the lambda from this expression? `\a -> return $ f t a`
2022-12-03 04:08:01 +0100 <davean> pure . f t
2022-12-03 04:09:56 +0100 <EvanR> note in your question, f t is some function g, so you could rewrite \a -> return (f t a) as \x -> h (g x), which is just h . g
2022-12-03 04:10:25 +0100 <Guest60> The answer is always clear but then getting to it can be tough for me. Is it just experience in refactoring expressions and understanding the types that gets you to the answer?
2022-12-03 04:10:47 +0100haritz(~hrtz@2a02:8010:65b5:0:6009:6384:e3cb:2220)
2022-12-03 04:10:47 +0100haritz(~hrtz@2a02:8010:65b5:0:6009:6384:e3cb:2220) (Changing host)
2022-12-03 04:10:47 +0100haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz)
2022-12-03 04:10:48 +0100 <Guest60> Thanks EvanR, that factorisation clears it up a bit
2022-12-03 04:10:53 +0100 <davean> Its knowing what is going on
2022-12-03 04:11:22 +0100 <davean> There are only one argument functions.
2022-12-03 04:13:04 +0100kadobanana(~mud@user/kadoban) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 04:13:20 +0100 <Guest60> Another questions, what's the difference between <$> and <&>? They appear to have their arguments swapped, is it just for convenience or are they different?
2022-12-03 04:14:20 +0100 <davean> Read the docs
2022-12-03 04:14:31 +0100 <davean> What does it say?
2022-12-03 04:15:09 +0100 <Guest60> oh right my bad
2022-12-03 04:16:16 +0100 <Guest60> going back to the previous question. You used pure over return. Is it generally preferred to work in terms of the looser typeclass when possible? I.e. Applicative over Monad?
2022-12-03 04:16:39 +0100 <EvanR> logically yes, culturally maybe not
2022-12-03 04:16:48 +0100 <davean> yes, return is just a restricted version of pure, its legacy. Theres no reason for it to exist anymore.
2022-12-03 04:17:18 +0100 <EvanR> it's like meters vs feet, there's no reason for feet to exist
2022-12-03 04:17:52 +0100 <davean> and like pure and return, feet are defined in terms of meters
2022-12-03 04:18:01 +0100 <Guest60> So logically, yes, you might as well express something more generally, but culturally no, if it helps express code intention then be specific?
2022-12-03 04:18:21 +0100 <EvanR> return is still used in a lot of tutorials and makes it clear we're talking monads right now
2022-12-03 04:18:28 +0100 <davean> It would shock me to find someone who thoguht return made anything clearer
2022-12-03 04:18:45 +0100 <davean> EvanR: I think that is only because they haven't been updated.\
2022-12-03 04:20:00 +0100 <Guest60> Or as an example, while yards is expressed in meters, you would express the length of an American football field in yards because of the context domain?
2022-12-03 04:20:09 +0100 <EvanR> sometimes I think changing random code that uses return into pure is too aggressive
2022-12-03 04:20:28 +0100 <EvanR> like if you barged into someone elses project and changed all their indentation
2022-12-03 04:20:45 +0100money(~money@pool-100-11-18-203.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
2022-12-03 04:20:51 +0100moneyGuest9300
2022-12-03 04:21:06 +0100 <EvanR> truth is people have to know pure and return both
2022-12-03 04:21:38 +0100 <davean> have to know, because we haven't reduced the legacy, but using return makes your code clearly worse
2022-12-03 04:21:53 +0100 <EvanR> does it
2022-12-03 04:22:03 +0100 <EvanR> is there some kind of performance thing
2022-12-03 04:22:05 +0100 <davean> yes
2022-12-03 04:22:20 +0100 <davean> That monad constraint isn't free. It must be coherent with Applicative but it adds requirements.
2022-12-03 04:22:25 +0100Guest9300(~money@pool-100-11-18-203.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Changing host)
2022-12-03 04:22:25 +0100Guest9300(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 04:22:36 +0100 <davean> requirements that can't be useful to pure
2022-12-03 04:22:40 +0100 <EvanR> well if you're doing applicative only code yeah you would use pure
2022-12-03 04:22:42 +0100Guest9300money
2022-12-03 04:22:54 +0100 <davean> when you use return you force code up to monad
2022-12-03 04:23:16 +0100 <davean> A lot of monadic code can be applicative if you stop using reutrn
2022-12-03 04:23:20 +0100 <EvanR> I figured the question was about monadic code, should you go find and replace all the returns in do notation with pure "just because"
2022-12-03 04:23:29 +0100 <davean> And, improtantly, regions of it can be applicative
2022-12-03 04:23:31 +0100 <EvanR> (ignoring ApplicativeDo for a second)
2022-12-03 04:23:40 +0100 <davean> EvanR: Theres no such thing.
2022-12-03 04:23:49 +0100 <davean> EvanR: you're carrying the extra constraint *on that line of code*
2022-12-03 04:23:49 +0100 <EvanR> there's no such what
2022-12-03 04:24:03 +0100 <davean> the use of pure couldn't have required Monad
2022-12-03 04:24:13 +0100 <davean> Other code might, but THAT piece couldn't
2022-12-03 04:24:16 +0100 <davean> and that MATTERS
2022-12-03 04:24:25 +0100 <EvanR> if changing 1 return to pure drops a monad constraint everywhere, it's applicative code
2022-12-03 04:24:45 +0100 <davean> It ALWAYS drops the Monad constraint *on that usage*
2022-12-03 04:25:00 +0100 <EvanR> changing 1 return to pure in the middle of a arcane request handler in a transformer stack can't drop a monad constraint, I'm guessing
2022-12-03 04:25:09 +0100 <davean> Incorrect
2022-12-03 04:25:13 +0100 <davean> Completely incorrect
2022-12-03 04:25:29 +0100 <EvanR> ghc deals in "lines of code" now? xD
2022-12-03 04:25:35 +0100 <davean> GHC deals with functions
2022-12-03 04:25:41 +0100 <davean> and that function call changes
2022-12-03 04:26:15 +0100 <davean> It doesn't have this concept of a larger context you're putting on it
2022-12-03 04:26:19 +0100 <EvanR> are you saying using a Monad instance has different performance from using Applicative instance
2022-12-03 04:26:27 +0100 <davean> Absolutely
2022-12-03 04:26:28 +0100 <EvanR> like, when using return / pure
2022-12-03 04:27:11 +0100 <davean> Applicative isn't ordered.
2022-12-03 04:27:24 +0100 <EvanR> the results of pure aren't ordered either
2022-12-03 04:27:32 +0100 <EvanR> or return
2022-12-03 04:27:49 +0100 <davean> How it is allowed to be combined with other code is.
2022-12-03 04:28:26 +0100 <davean> EvanR: So there are things like https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/applicative_do.html
2022-12-03 04:29:08 +0100 <davean> That might be illustrative
2022-12-03 04:29:14 +0100 <EvanR> so if you have a bunch of monadic code, you think changing one of the returns to pure is going to matter
2022-12-03 04:29:28 +0100 <davean> it can
2022-12-03 04:29:29 +0100 <EvanR> actual monad code, not ApplicativeDo
2022-12-03 04:30:06 +0100kadobanana(~mud@user/kadoban)
2022-12-03 04:30:25 +0100 <davean> It depends on the code, but there is no sensible reason to use return and it can hurt regularly.
2022-12-03 04:30:46 +0100 <davean> How it relates to exactly one other thing matters
2022-12-03 04:30:46 +0100gentauro(~gentauro@user/gentauro) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-12-03 04:30:59 +0100accord(uid568320@id-568320.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2022-12-03 04:30:59 +0100 <davean> The overall picture isn't particularly relivent
2022-12-03 04:31:13 +0100 <davean> EACH INTERACTION is where things operate at
2022-12-03 04:31:26 +0100 <davean> Sure, the entire function might be monadic, but half of it might not be
2022-12-03 04:31:32 +0100 <EvanR> it kind of sounds like old javascript where changing the spelling of variables might matter to performance, and so your boss demands you change the spelling xD
2022-12-03 04:32:06 +0100 <davean> EvanR: They're different constraints, but you can know the constraint doesn't matter
2022-12-03 04:32:12 +0100 <davean> return was a complete mistake
2022-12-03 04:32:15 +0100 <EvanR> i.e. since return should = pure, why isn't the compiler exploiting that
2022-12-03 04:32:37 +0100 <davean> EvanR: should doesn't mean it does
2022-12-03 04:32:48 +0100 <davean> Thats why MonadOfNoreturn
2022-12-03 04:33:02 +0100rcharles(~user@pool-71-166-43-226.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
2022-12-03 04:33:21 +0100 <davean> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/proposal/monad-of-no-return
2022-12-03 04:33:23 +0100 <EvanR> it makes sense as a cultural movement
2022-12-03 04:33:41 +0100 <EvanR> one day we might see return go bye bye
2022-12-03 04:34:06 +0100 <davean> No, it makes sense from a correctness and optimization standpoint
2022-12-03 04:34:08 +0100nattiestnate(~nate@202.138.250.46)
2022-12-03 04:35:55 +0100 <EvanR> now return is incorrect too? xD
2022-12-03 04:36:11 +0100nattiestnate(~nate@202.138.250.46) (Client Quit)
2022-12-03 04:36:13 +0100finn_elija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-12-03 04:36:13 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
2022-12-03 04:36:13 +0100finn_elijaFinnElija
2022-12-03 04:36:17 +0100gentauro(~gentauro@user/gentauro)
2022-12-03 04:36:19 +0100 <davean> Yes, its exist can only be to allow incorrect code
2022-12-03 04:37:00 +0100 <davean> Thats the problem with it and why we lose a lot when it is used
2022-12-03 04:37:02 +0100 <EvanR> can we rename the Monad class in the process of dropping return, it would be too hard to explain what it has to do with monads in category theory
2022-12-03 04:37:23 +0100 <davean> Oh?
2022-12-03 04:37:28 +0100 <EvanR> which exist in isolation from Applicative
2022-12-03 04:38:35 +0100 <EvanR> yeah, monad is a functor with these two natural transformations. join and return, and we never had join in the class and return used to exist, don't worry about why it's not there anymore, Monads!
2022-12-03 04:38:36 +0100 <davean> but Monad hasn't changed.
2022-12-03 04:39:06 +0100 <davean> Monad includes Applicative
2022-12-03 04:39:30 +0100 <EvanR> you never hear about applicative functor when reading intro material about monads (CT)
2022-12-03 04:39:54 +0100 <davean> Sure, because that break out isn't a CT relivent thing. But the Haskell Monad class still ahs everything it ever had.
2022-12-03 04:40:12 +0100 <EvanR> oh ok
2022-12-03 04:40:32 +0100 <davean> Well in CT I think they're lax monoidal functors?
2022-12-03 04:40:35 +0100 <davean> IIRC
2022-12-03 04:40:49 +0100 <EvanR> correction, the Monad class would be missing return
2022-12-03 04:40:52 +0100 <davean> I'd have to double check.
2022-12-03 04:40:56 +0100 <davean> No, it wouldn't!
2022-12-03 04:41:01 +0100 <davean> it wouldn't be missign return
2022-12-03 04:41:17 +0100 <EvanR> which proposal are we talking about now
2022-12-03 04:41:23 +0100 <davean> MonadOfNoReturn
2022-12-03 04:41:37 +0100 <EvanR> it says right there under proposal return would be removed
2022-12-03 04:42:08 +0100 <davean> Monad REQUIRES Applicative, and Applicative has pure so we get to have a function 'return :: Monad m => a -> m a', 'return = pure' and now its actually correct.
2022-12-03 04:42:21 +0100 <davean> FROM THE TYPE CLASS, Monad would still have return.
2022-12-03 04:42:45 +0100king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:94a4:81e0:429b:22ec:cf13)
2022-12-03 04:42:48 +0100 <davean> and now return would actually be correct.
2022-12-03 04:42:50 +0100 <maerwald[m]> Monad requires applicative?
2022-12-03 04:42:58 +0100 <EvanR> now a days yeah
2022-12-03 04:43:01 +0100 <maerwald[m]> Isn't that against the spec,
2022-12-03 04:43:19 +0100 <davean> class Applicative m => Monad m where
2022-12-03 04:43:55 +0100 <EvanR> why not define return, in that proposal, to have type Applicative m => a -> m a
2022-12-03 04:44:04 +0100 <maerwald[m]> https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch6.html#x13-1270006.3
2022-12-03 04:44:10 +0100 <maerwald[m]> Yes, it's against the spec
2022-12-03 04:44:20 +0100rcharles(~user@pool-71-166-43-226.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 04:44:33 +0100 <EvanR> wait, nevermind that
2022-12-03 04:44:44 +0100 <davean> EvanR: Oh you can have it as that yes :)
2022-12-03 04:44:51 +0100 <maerwald[m]> And so is monad of no return
2022-12-03 04:45:11 +0100 <maerwald[m]> Not that anyone cares about the spec anymore
2022-12-03 04:45:12 +0100 <davean> maerwald[m]: Thats why we update thing. Or depricate them
2022-12-03 04:45:13 +0100 <EvanR> we have a history of proposals which break things
2022-12-03 04:45:26 +0100nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-12-03 04:45:34 +0100 <EvanR> creative destruction
2022-12-03 04:45:42 +0100 <maerwald[m]> Often useless
2022-12-03 04:46:01 +0100 <davean> Its a rather bad spec really sadly. I'd had hopes for Haskell2020
2022-12-03 04:47:36 +0100king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:94a4:81e0:429b:22ec:cf13) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 04:47:45 +0100 <EvanR> anything other than the extremes of 1. never change anything ever 2. create the language completely from scratch including branding any time you need a change
2022-12-03 04:47:55 +0100 <EvanR> sounds like project management witchcraft to me
2022-12-03 04:48:08 +0100 <EvanR> some wise person is guiding the ship
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2022-12-03 04:51:36 +0100azimut_(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
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2022-12-03 04:57:44 +0100causal(~user@50.35.83.177)
2022-12-03 04:59:25 +0100Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@108.175.84.104)
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2022-12-03 05:13:02 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier)
2022-12-03 05:21:50 +0100 <iqubic> What's the minimum version of GHC needed to use Haskell2020?
2022-12-03 05:24:53 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-12-03 05:30:12 +0100TonyStone(~TonyStone@cpe-74-76-57-186.nycap.res.rr.com)
2022-12-03 05:30:40 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 05:39:15 +0100Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@user/Unicorn-Princess/x-3540542) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-12-03 05:41:11 +0100Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2022-12-03 05:43:53 +0100 <maerwald[m]> iqubic: there is no Haskell2020
2022-12-03 05:43:59 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
2022-12-03 05:44:28 +0100Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
2022-12-03 05:45:09 +0100 <Guest60> How would I approach a function like this? `Semigroup b => [Either a b] -> Either [a] b`
2022-12-03 05:45:51 +0100 <maerwald[m]> Guest60: homework?
2022-12-03 05:45:52 +0100 <Guest60> Where I either have all of the lefts or if there are no lefts, all of the rights combined?
2022-12-03 05:46:02 +0100 <Guest60> Not homework
2022-12-03 05:47:16 +0100 <EvanR> so basically, Semigroup b => [Either a b] -> Either (NonEmpty a) b
2022-12-03 05:47:34 +0100 <EvanR> more accurate type might help
2022-12-03 05:47:57 +0100 <EvanR> then you could go back to a list if you don't really care, but the same algorithm will work
2022-12-03 05:47:58 +0100 <maerwald[m]> Semantics are not clear to me
2022-12-03 05:48:23 +0100 <maerwald[m]> [Right a, Left b, Left b]. ..what shall be the output?
2022-12-03 05:48:27 +0100 <Guest60> yes, the NonEmpty is more accurate
2022-12-03 05:48:48 +0100 <EvanR> if there's at least one Left, map fromLeft
2022-12-03 05:48:49 +0100 <Guest60> [Left b, Left b]
2022-12-03 05:48:49 +0100nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-12-03 05:49:01 +0100 <EvanR> otherwise sconcat . map fromRight
2022-12-03 05:49:07 +0100 <iqubic> maerwald[m]: Oh? Isn't there like, a cabal language option that is GHC2020? Can't I just set that?
2022-12-03 05:49:26 +0100 <maerwald[m]> iqubic: yes, GHC2020, not Haskell2020
2022-12-03 05:49:32 +0100 <EvanR> except what I said will crash
2022-12-03 05:49:56 +0100 <EvanR> Guest60, you could "brute force" this by using partitionEithers from Data.Either
2022-12-03 05:49:57 +0100 <iqubic> What's the minimum GHC version required for GHC2020?
2022-12-03 05:50:22 +0100 <EvanR> case analysis on the two partitions
2022-12-03 05:50:43 +0100 <Guest60> partitionEithers was my first attempt but it felt really verbose considering the type signature. Seems like there might be a general pattern in it
2022-12-03 05:51:00 +0100 <EvanR> it doesn't seem particularly patterny
2022-12-03 05:51:30 +0100 <EvanR> or efficient, you have to check the whole list for lefts before doing anything
2022-12-03 05:52:06 +0100 <iqubic> Is partitionEithers just the Either version of catMaybes :: [Maybe a] -> [a]?
2022-12-03 05:52:14 +0100 <EvanR> :t partitionEithers
2022-12-03 05:52:15 +0100 <lambdabot> [Either a b] -> ([a], [b])
2022-12-03 05:52:24 +0100 <EvanR> kinda of
2022-12-03 05:53:19 +0100 <Guest60> I suppose partitionEithers is fine considering I'd need to process all of them anyway for the logic to work
2022-12-03 05:53:20 +0100 <pavonia> partitionMaybes :: [Maybe a] -> ([()], [a])
2022-12-03 05:54:22 +0100 <pavonia> And then catMaybes = snd . partitionMaybes
2022-12-03 05:54:29 +0100gawen(~gawen@user/gawen) (Quit: cya)
2022-12-03 05:55:17 +0100 <iqubic> Is there a thing called mapEithers :: (a -> c) -> (b -> d) -> [Either a b] -> [Either c d]
2022-12-03 05:55:41 +0100 <iqubic> Wait... that's just "\f g xs -> map (bimap f g) xs"
2022-12-03 05:55:50 +0100gawen(~gawen@user/gawen)
2022-12-03 05:55:50 +0100 <maerwald[m]> Guest60: consider using These
2022-12-03 05:56:16 +0100 <iqubic> These is like Either, but also gives you the option of having Both
2022-12-03 05:59:33 +0100 <EvanR> that's bimap from Bifunctor
2022-12-03 05:59:34 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 05:59:46 +0100 <iqubic> Yeah, I got that now
2022-12-03 06:16:34 +0100ddellacosta(~ddellacos@89.45.224.153) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-12-03 06:19:14 +0100 <c_wraith> notable sudden channel silence at midnight EST. "odd", I saw as if I don't know exactly why...
2022-12-03 06:19:29 +0100 <c_wraith> *say
2022-12-03 06:20:22 +0100 <famubu[m]> Hi. I needed to represent a Float value that I needed to limit to a 0.0 to 1.0 range. How can this be done in haskell. I saw about smart constructors, but there the checking is done only at run-time.
2022-12-03 06:21:05 +0100 <c_wraith> Do you want a Float specifically? Or just some representation of a lot of values between 0 and 1?
2022-12-03 06:25:30 +0100 <famubu[m]> The exact value is needed. Or some way to convert to that value.
2022-12-03 06:26:34 +0100poloGuest6586
2022-12-03 06:26:35 +0100Guest6586(money@user/polo) (Killed (cadmium.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services)))
2022-12-03 06:26:35 +0100moneypolo
2022-12-03 06:27:44 +0100 <EvanR> smart constructors for this are probably good
2022-12-03 06:28:04 +0100 <EvanR> the checking is at construction time but it will still be right
2022-12-03 06:28:32 +0100 <c_wraith> the key thing with a smart constructor is that they have different types, so you still have the compile-time guarantee that *if you have such a value*, it's within the expected range.
2022-12-03 06:29:41 +0100 <c_wraith> also, someone here (merijn?) has a nice package for checking smart constructors of literals at compile time.
2022-12-03 06:30:26 +0100 <c_wraith> yeah, it is merijn: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/validated-literals
2022-12-03 06:31:11 +0100 <famubu[m]> Thanks! Let me check that out.
2022-12-03 06:32:31 +0100 <famubu[m]> And is there some way to indicate that a type has some means to be converted to a list? A type class maybe? For example, I got an int type, and I wanna say that if I try to make it a list, it will be [x mod 2, x mod 3, xmod 5] or something like that?
2022-12-03 06:32:39 +0100mbuf(~Shakthi@49.204.140.192)
2022-12-03 06:33:02 +0100nihonium(~nihonium@91.193.176.241)
2022-12-03 06:33:07 +0100 <c_wraith> Nothing I'm aware of means that sort of thing
2022-12-03 06:35:53 +0100 <int-e> . o O ( type Convert a b = a -> b )
2022-12-03 06:37:31 +0100 <int-e> Sometimes a type class is so generic that it's better not to have it. We do have first-class functions.
2022-12-03 06:38:38 +0100Guest60(~Guest60@101.98.118.246) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-12-03 06:40:26 +0100 <c_wraith> I probably would have thrown a functional dependency on the class
2022-12-03 06:47:10 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 06:48:06 +0100polo(~money@user/polo) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2022-12-03 06:48:43 +0100 <famubu[m]> 👍️
2022-12-03 06:48:52 +0100money(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 06:50:49 +0100money(~money@user/polo) (Client Quit)
2022-12-03 06:51:09 +0100money(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 06:53:44 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-03 06:56:01 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-002-023.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-12-03 06:56:05 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-12-03 06:56:14 +0100nihonium(~nihonium@91.193.176.241) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 06:59:24 +0100redmp(~redmp@mobile-166-171-250-195.mycingular.net)
2022-12-03 07:01:25 +0100Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 07:04:33 +0100 <dsal> famubu[m]: Foldable?
2022-12-03 07:05:12 +0100 <dsal> Though that sounds a bit more like an anamorphism.
2022-12-03 07:13:46 +0100aeroplane(~user@user/aeroplane)
2022-12-03 07:17:57 +0100money(~money@user/polo) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-12-03 07:19:17 +0100Guest60(~Guest60@101.98.118.246)
2022-12-03 07:25:03 +0100Guest6586(Guest6586@id-532813.tinside.irccloud.com)
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2022-12-03 07:35:41 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2022-12-03 07:38:01 +0100Guest6586(Guest6586@id-532813.tinside.irccloud.com) (Changing host)
2022-12-03 07:38:01 +0100Guest6586(Guest6586@user/polo)
2022-12-03 07:40:15 +0100redmp(~redmp@mobile-166-171-250-195.mycingular.net)
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2022-12-03 07:43:32 +0100Guest6586money
2022-12-03 07:45:11 +0100 <Guest60> How can I pattern match an array of strings on `Aeson.Types.Value` ?
2022-12-03 07:46:18 +0100 <c_wraith> You generally wouldn't.
2022-12-03 07:46:36 +0100 <c_wraith> I mean, you *could*, but it would be really awkward.
2022-12-03 07:47:01 +0100 <Guest60> My goal is to define an instance of FromJSON which matches on a string or an array of strings
2022-12-03 07:47:28 +0100Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon)
2022-12-03 07:47:42 +0100 <c_wraith> You can match on the Array constructor and then do whatever with the Vector it contains
2022-12-03 07:48:34 +0100 <c_wraith> The big issue being that it's a Vector Value, and you need to deal with all the possible types of Value
2022-12-03 07:49:29 +0100redmp(~redmp@mobile-166-171-250-195.mycingular.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 07:50:57 +0100redmp(~redmp@mobile-166-171-250-195.mycingular.net)
2022-12-03 07:51:24 +0100 <Guest60> What does a pattern match on a vector look like?
2022-12-03 07:51:34 +0100 <c_wraith> It usually doesn't.
2022-12-03 07:51:35 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
2022-12-03 07:52:25 +0100 <c_wraith> Vector is an opaque type. You work with the functions it provides.
2022-12-03 07:52:52 +0100 <c_wraith> (or possibly with the OverloadedLists extension, but that's awkward at best)
2022-12-03 07:53:28 +0100 <Guest60> Does a vector contain only one type? If so, how do I see which type it has
2022-12-03 07:54:03 +0100 <iqubic> Is there a good way to write a function of the type "(a,a) -> [a]"?
2022-12-03 07:55:05 +0100 <int-e> . o O ( const [] )
2022-12-03 07:56:11 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-03 07:56:36 +0100 <iqubic> Yes, that works, but it gets rid of the data.
2022-12-03 07:56:46 +0100 <int-e> \(a,b) -> [a,b,b,a,b,a,a,b]
2022-12-03 07:56:54 +0100 <iqubic> I want the output to be a two element list.
2022-12-03 07:57:01 +0100 <int-e> \(a,b) -> [a,a]
2022-12-03 07:57:05 +0100 <int-e> :-P
2022-12-03 07:57:20 +0100son0p(~ff@2604:3d08:5b7f:5540::ea0e) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-12-03 07:57:34 +0100 <iqubic> Are you being obtuse on purpose?
2022-12-03 07:57:44 +0100 <int-e> > traverse (\x -> [x,x]) (1,2)
2022-12-03 07:57:46 +0100 <lambdabot> [(1,2),(1,2)]
2022-12-03 07:57:52 +0100 <int-e> mm
2022-12-03 07:58:19 +0100 <int-e> > foldMap (\x -> [x,x]) (1,2)
2022-12-03 07:58:21 +0100 <lambdabot> [2,2]
2022-12-03 07:58:54 +0100 <int-e> iqubic: I'm finding holes in your specification.
2022-12-03 07:59:11 +0100 <iqubic> I see...
2022-12-03 07:59:41 +0100 <mauke> @pl \p -> fst p : snd p : []
2022-12-03 07:59:41 +0100 <lambdabot> liftM2 (:) fst (return . snd)
2022-12-03 08:01:01 +0100 <iqubic> I'm just gonna use this:
2022-12-03 08:01:13 +0100 <iqubic> > \(xs, ys) -> [xs, ys]) (1, 2)
2022-12-03 08:01:15 +0100 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:22: error: parse error on input ‘)’
2022-12-03 08:01:25 +0100takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
2022-12-03 08:01:28 +0100 <iqubic> > (\(xs, ys) -> [xs, ys]) (1, 2)
2022-12-03 08:01:29 +0100 <lambdabot> [1,2]
2022-12-03 08:02:03 +0100 <int-e> I'd object to naming those variables x*s* and y*s* but I guess this is for AoC where you actually have lists.
2022-12-03 08:02:28 +0100 <iqubic> It is Advent of Code. But fair point.
2022-12-03 08:03:08 +0100 <xerox> another way to go about it is applying a function g xs ys = ... transformed as uncurry g which gives you ([a],[a]) -> ...
2022-12-03 08:03:43 +0100 <[Leary]> > Data.Bifoldable.biList (1,2)
2022-12-03 08:03:44 +0100 <lambdabot> error:
2022-12-03 08:03:44 +0100 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘Data.Bifoldable.biList’
2022-12-03 08:03:44 +0100 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘Data.Foldable.toList’ (imported from Data.Foldable)
2022-12-03 08:05:04 +0100 <iqubic> @import Data.Bifoldable
2022-12-03 08:05:04 +0100 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
2022-12-03 08:05:08 +0100 <Guest60> what's the syntax to pattern match on a type from a list?
2022-12-03 08:06:00 +0100 <int-e> pattern match on a type?
2022-12-03 08:06:53 +0100 <[Leary]> Well, you get the idea---that exists. Strange that lambdabot can do :t for things it deems not in scope.
2022-12-03 08:06:54 +0100 <Guest60> yeah idk, I guess you pattern match on constructors
2022-12-03 08:07:09 +0100 <iqubic> You don't pattern match on types.
2022-12-03 08:07:11 +0100 <Guest60> I'm just completely stumped on this Aeson array stuff
2022-12-03 08:07:24 +0100 <int-e> iqubic: it's @let import
2022-12-03 08:07:30 +0100 <Guest60> I just want to know if I have an array of strings or not
2022-12-03 08:07:41 +0100 <int-e> [Leary]: `ghci` does that too
2022-12-03 08:09:09 +0100lisbeths(uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com)
2022-12-03 08:09:39 +0100freeside(~mengwong@185.223.152.95) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 08:10:14 +0100 <iqubic> Why am I getting this error? Module ‘Data.Bifoldable’ does not export ‘bilist’
2022-12-03 08:10:17 +0100 <int-e> And in fact, :t is implemented by invoking ghci. But @run actually puts the code into a module and compiles so that functionality is lost.
2022-12-03 08:10:37 +0100 <int-e> :t Data.Bifoldable.biList
2022-12-03 08:10:38 +0100 <lambdabot> Data.Bifoldable.Bifoldable t => t a a -> [a]
2022-12-03 08:10:38 +0100money_(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 08:10:51 +0100 <int-e> iqubic: a typo, I think
2022-12-03 08:11:10 +0100 <[Leary]> int-e: Maybe you mean that it implicitly imports everything qualified? They're still in scope.
2022-12-03 08:11:15 +0100 <iqubic> Yeah... Why does that have a capital L
2022-12-03 08:11:31 +0100freeside(~mengwong@103.252.202.193)
2022-12-03 08:12:40 +0100 <int-e> I have no idea. Maybe it's a pun on `toList`.
2022-12-03 08:17:02 +0100jinsun__(~jinsun@user/jinsun)
2022-12-03 08:17:02 +0100jinsunGuest568
2022-12-03 08:17:02 +0100jinsun__jinsun
2022-12-03 08:19:32 +0100Guest568(~jinsun@user/jinsun) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 08:20:30 +0100money_(~money@user/polo) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2022-12-03 08:26:09 +0100bilegeek(~bilegeek@2600:1008:b026:a50f:e2e0:72c1:76cc:3163)
2022-12-03 08:28:25 +0100redmp(~redmp@mobile-166-171-250-195.mycingular.net) (Quit: leaving)
2022-12-03 08:29:06 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-12-03 08:30:37 +0100maerwald_(~maerwald@mail.hasufell.de) (Changing host)
2022-12-03 08:30:37 +0100maerwald_(~maerwald@user/maerwald)
2022-12-03 08:31:45 +0100maerwald_maerwald
2022-12-03 08:33:27 +0100nihonium(~nihonium@93.175.28.1)
2022-12-03 08:33:55 +0100 <EvanR> biList, toList, ...
2022-12-03 08:34:20 +0100ballast(~ballast@rrcs-24-43-123-92.west.biz.rr.com)
2022-12-03 08:34:37 +0100 <EvanR> oops you said that
2022-12-03 08:34:51 +0100money_(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 08:36:05 +0100Guest60(~Guest60@101.98.118.246) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-12-03 08:36:41 +0100 <ballast> anyone know if it's possible to have optparse-applicative default a command using subparser if no subcommand is passed? Something like default :: ParserInfo a -> Mod CommandFields a
2022-12-03 08:40:20 +0100freeside(~mengwong@103.252.202.193) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2022-12-03 08:41:52 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
2022-12-03 08:46:44 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 08:52:24 +0100 <ballast> hmmm seems like it's unlikely to be possible given that prefShowHelpOnEmpty is used to hardcode the behavior of showing help when there are no arguments
2022-12-03 09:00:28 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
2022-12-03 09:02:47 +0100oldsk00l(~znc@ec2-3-73-153-196.eu-central-1.compute.amazonaws.com)
2022-12-03 09:05:01 +0100gurkenglas(~gurkengla@p548ac72e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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2022-12-03 09:11:08 +0100money_(~money@user/polo) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-12-03 09:20:55 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
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2022-12-03 09:22:05 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
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2022-12-03 10:01:05 +0100iqubic(~avi@2601:601:1100:edd0:d29b:dc2d:eab0:9e7d) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2022-12-03 10:05:20 +0100freeside(~mengwong@103.252.202.193)
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2022-12-03 10:08:25 +0100son0p(~ff@2604:3d08:5b7f:5540::a58f)
2022-12-03 10:10:02 +0100nihonium(~nihonium@93.175.28.1) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 10:10:41 +0100 <freeside> for my next trick, i get HLS working with Emacs and ghc 9.2.5 on Mac 12.6. wish me luck.
2022-12-03 10:11:01 +0100coot(~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba) (Quit: coot)
2022-12-03 10:11:04 +0100 <tomsmeding> freeside: doesn't hls not yet support ghc 9.2.5
2022-12-03 10:11:09 +0100 <tomsmeding> you may have better luck with 9.2.4
2022-12-03 10:11:25 +0100 <freeside> for my next trick, i get HLS working with Emacs and ghc 9.2.4 on Mac 12.6. wish me luck.
2022-12-03 10:11:57 +0100coot(~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba)
2022-12-03 10:12:52 +0100husixu(~husixu@182.55.67.24) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 10:13:25 +0100 <freeside> For maximum compatibility, I begin by setting up a fresh source dir using stack new. In accordance with the above advice about preferring ghc 9.2.4, I look for a resolver version on stackage.org that uses ghc 9.2.4.
2022-12-03 10:14:21 +0100money_(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 10:14:26 +0100 <freeside> i don't see an LTS that has ghc 9.2.4, so instead I choose nightly 2022-11-12.
2022-12-03 10:14:29 +0100 <maerwald> freeside: M1?
2022-12-03 10:14:34 +0100 <freeside> yes, M1, I'm afraid
2022-12-03 10:14:39 +0100 <maerwald> 9.2.4 is broken on M1
2022-12-03 10:14:42 +0100 <tomsmeding> lol
2022-12-03 10:15:22 +0100 <freeside> I see. Rewinding top-level goal. For my next trick, i get HLS working with Emacs and ghc _ on Mac 12.6 on M1. wish me luck.
2022-12-03 10:15:48 +0100 <maerwald> will be more challenging with stack
2022-12-03 10:16:14 +0100 <freeside> I see. Rewinding top-level goal. For my next trick, i get HLS working with Emacs and ghc _ on Mac 12.6 on M1, using ghcup instead of stack. wish me luck.
2022-12-03 10:16:38 +0100 <maerwald> that should work
2022-12-03 10:16:56 +0100 <maerwald> make sure xcode command line tools are installed
2022-12-03 10:19:14 +0100 <freeside> we begin with a fresh start. $ rm ~/.{ghcup,local}/bin/haskell-language-server*
2022-12-03 10:20:15 +0100 <maerwald> freeside: ehm
2022-12-03 10:20:24 +0100 <maerwald> that's not a proper uninstallation for ghcup
2022-12-03 10:20:31 +0100 <ballast> hmmm, is my usage of stack why i'm having compile errors with ghc-lib-parser on 9.0.2? or could it be because i'm still on macos 10.14
2022-12-03 10:20:43 +0100 <ballast> ghc-lib-parser  > error: In file included from FFI.hsc:9:
2022-12-03 10:20:44 +0100 <ballast> ghc-lib-parser  > /Library/Developer/CommandLineTools/SDKs/MacOSX10.15.sdk/usr/include/ffi/ffi.h:193:1: error: expected ','
2022-12-03 10:20:44 +0100 <ballast> ghc-lib-parser  > FFI_AVAILABLE_APPLE FFI_EXTERN ffi_type ffi_type_void;
2022-12-03 10:20:53 +0100 <freeside> i shall run ghcup tui to uninstall the hls
2022-12-03 10:21:11 +0100 <maerwald> 'ghcup nuke' does too
2022-12-03 10:21:24 +0100husixu(~husixu@182.55.67.24)
2022-12-03 10:21:28 +0100 <maerwald> although maybe I should have named this command different during these times
2022-12-03 10:21:31 +0100 <freeside> thank you, i suspect i am about 1.5 hours way from runnin ga nuke
2022-12-03 10:22:11 +0100 <tomsmeding> maerwald: is there a central list of issues like this, i.e. known bugs of previous ghc versions
2022-12-03 10:22:36 +0100 <maerwald> tomsmeding: dunno, probably not
2022-12-03 10:22:47 +0100 <tomsmeding> including incompatibilities like "9.2.5 is not supported by HLS yet", but also "9.2.4 doesn't work on M1" and "9.0.something has severe codegen bugs with Natural" or what was it
2022-12-03 10:23:25 +0100titibandit(~titibandi@xdsl-78-35-173-119.nc.de) (Quit: Leaving.)
2022-12-03 10:23:25 +0100 <maerwald> tomsmeding: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/21491
2022-12-03 10:23:35 +0100 <tomsmeding> lol
2022-12-03 10:24:00 +0100 <freeside> why is it that on one computer, my ghcup tui shows "hls-powered", but on another computer, it doesn't?
2022-12-03 10:24:02 +0100nihonium(~nihonium@93.175.28.1)
2022-12-03 10:24:17 +0100 <tomsmeding> because that one computer has HLS installed via ghcup and the other doesn't?
2022-12-03 10:24:39 +0100sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2022-12-03 10:24:40 +0100 <freeside> my finger creeps closer to the 'nuke' button
2022-12-03 10:24:57 +0100 <c_wraith> I've never used hls. is it any good?
2022-12-03 10:24:59 +0100 <maerwald> freeside: hls-powered just reads file-names... if you want to know hls-ghc bindist support, the only source of truth is: https://github.com/haskell/ghcup-metadata/blob/develop/hls-metadata-0.0.1.json
2022-12-03 10:25:14 +0100 <tomsmeding> maerwald: yes that's almost precisely what I was describing, just misses the 9.2.5-has-no-hls thing, but not sure this is the right place for that either (though it's _very_ useful end-user info)
2022-12-03 10:25:22 +0100 <maerwald> that file is not utilized by ghcup though
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2022-12-03 10:39:59 +0100 <freeside> ok, my emacs seems to be happy with the HLS 1.8.0.0 installed by ghcup, running against a source file inside a project directory initialized by stack with resolver nightly-2022-11-12, contrary to the advice here; I do not expect ghc 9.2.4 to DTRT on M1, but this is nonetheless a step forward. Whether that step forward is in the right direction ...
2022-12-03 10:40:37 +0100 <freeside> to remove the stack aspect, I will now switch to a project which was not initialized by stack, and see if I can get HLS to do all the tricks.
2022-12-03 10:40:39 +0100 <maerwald> freeside: 9.2.4 produces wrong maths on M1
2022-12-03 10:40:47 +0100 <maerwald> you're running a ticking time bomb
2022-12-03 10:41:31 +0100 <tomsmeding> maerwald: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/21964 says it's not really wrong math, but rather segfaults due to invalid code generation
2022-12-03 10:41:36 +0100 <freeside> ok. to defuse the bomb, i switch the resolver to lts-20.2
2022-12-03 10:41:40 +0100 <tomsmeding> but not sure that matters here :)
2022-12-03 10:42:43 +0100 <freeside> after reloading the Lib.hs file from under the lts-20.2 project, I get a nice warning "ghcide compiled against GHC 9.2.4 but currently using 9.2.5". I will set this aside for now and just see what happens with a simpler, non-stack situation.
2022-12-03 10:43:17 +0100 <tomsmeding> freeside: try restarting the language server
2022-12-03 10:43:41 +0100 <tomsmeding> HLS is compiled with ghc version X to work with projects using ghc version X
2022-12-03 10:43:45 +0100 <maerwald> tomsmeding: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/22282
2022-12-03 10:43:51 +0100 <tomsmeding> so every (supported) ghc version has its own HLS executable
2022-12-03 10:44:09 +0100 <freeside> i use ghcup tui to set 9.2.5, and M-x lsp-wo-re
2022-12-03 10:44:10 +0100 <tomsmeding> maerwald: that's 9.4.2, not 9.2.4
2022-12-03 10:44:18 +0100 <tomsmeding> I remember that one too :)
2022-12-03 10:44:40 +0100 <tomsmeding> freeside: lsp-world-reenact?
2022-12-03 10:45:25 +0100 <freeside> not ready for that yet; my lsp-haskell window shows: Tool versions found on the $PATH: cabal 3.8.1.0, stack 2.9.1, ghc 9.2.5. And, aha, the error appears: Failed to find a HLS version for GHC 9.2.5.
2022-12-03 10:45:34 +0100 <maerwald> tomsmeding: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/9.2.5/docs/html/users_guide/9.2.5-notes.html
2022-12-03 10:45:37 +0100 <maerwald> it is listed there
2022-12-03 10:46:01 +0100 <tomsmeding> ah so it was a thing on 9.2.4 too
2022-12-03 10:46:06 +0100 <maerwald> "Now GHC 9.2.4 fails in precisely the same way that GHC 9.4.2 does. So it seems GHC 9.2 is still buggy, but in this case, it gets lucky."
2022-12-03 10:46:10 +0100 <maerwald> 9.2.4 is broken
2022-12-03 10:46:25 +0100 <tomsmeding> freeside: yeah the ghcup-distributed hls doesn't provide a build for 9.2.5; I'm compiling HLS master here to see if it builds on 9.2.5
2022-12-03 10:46:30 +0100 <freeside> So, the "failed to find a HLS version for GHC 9.2.5" is expected; HLS does not claim to support 9.2.5 yet. But, we proceed with blind faith in the directions at https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/guide/
2022-12-03 10:46:32 +0100 <maerwald> you don't want your compiler to "get lucky"
2022-12-03 10:46:45 +0100 <maerwald> freeside: yes, 'ghcup compile hls'
2022-12-03 10:46:59 +0100 <freeside> I am prepared to compile HLS master from source, but first I want to try ghcup compile hls.
2022-12-03 10:47:15 +0100 <maerwald> https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/guide/#hls
2022-12-03 10:47:25 +0100 <tomsmeding> 'ghcup compile hls --git-ref master --ghc 9.2.5' presumably?
2022-12-03 10:47:29 +0100 <maerwald> yeah
2022-12-03 10:47:43 +0100 <tomsmeding> I mean, 'ghcup compile hls' does exactly that :p
2022-12-03 10:47:49 +0100 <freeside> how about $ ghcup compile hls --version 1.8.0.0 --ghc 9.2.5 --cabal-update
2022-12-03 10:47:56 +0100 <maerwald> also can
2022-12-03 10:47:58 +0100 <maerwald> try any
2022-12-03 10:48:40 +0100 <freeside> Just to prove that the time-bomb version does work, I will try ghcup compile hls --version 1.8.0.0 --ghc 9.2.4 --cabal-update
2022-12-03 10:49:00 +0100 <maerwald> bad maths is subtle, lol... it can cause wrong code paths
2022-12-03 10:49:01 +0100nihonium(~nihonium@93.175.28.32)
2022-12-03 10:49:10 +0100 <maerwald> like... delete random directories, at worst
2022-12-03 10:49:23 +0100 <freeside> there is no such thing as bad maths, only non-monotonic logic
2022-12-03 10:49:37 +0100 <maerwald> well, don't care what you call it... good luck anyways
2022-12-03 10:49:48 +0100 <tomsmeding> we do really need that survival guide
2022-12-03 10:49:52 +0100 <maerwald> I should probably remove that version from ghcup
2022-12-03 10:50:13 +0100 <maerwald> but then again, that's not the only ghc that's broken
2022-12-03 10:50:14 +0100 <tomsmeding> does it have issues only on aarch64?
2022-12-03 10:50:18 +0100 <freeside> so, when I run ghcup compile hls --version 1.8.0.0 --ghc 9.2.4 --cabal-update, I get BuildFailed. "After searching the rest of the dependency tree exhaustively, these were the goals I've had most trouble fulfilling: haskell-language-server, hls-plugin-api, hls-stylish-haskell-plugin,"
2022-12-03 10:50:29 +0100 <tomsmeding> yeah 1.8.0.0 doesn't have updated bounds yet for 9.2.5
2022-12-03 10:50:34 +0100 <tomsmeding> try --git-ref master
2022-12-03 10:50:40 +0100 <freeside> ok, doing that now.
2022-12-03 10:50:42 +0100 <tomsmeding> that at least gets an install plan here, still compiling
2022-12-03 10:50:44 +0100 <maerwald> freeside: try `ghcup compile hls --git-ref 1.8.0.0 --ghc 9.2.5 --cabal-update'
2022-12-03 10:51:00 +0100 <maerwald> --git-ref master is a bit lucky goon
2022-12-03 10:51:19 +0100 <tomsmeding> maerwald: you think git 1.8.0.0 is newer than hackage 1.8.0.0?
2022-12-03 10:51:27 +0100 <tomsmeding> I mean, could be
2022-12-03 10:51:37 +0100 <maerwald> it has a cabal.project file
2022-12-03 10:51:43 +0100 <tomsmeding> oooh right
2022-12-03 10:55:06 +0100 <tomsmeding> master build succeeded
2022-12-03 10:57:31 +0100 <tomsmeding> (and seems to work)
2022-12-03 10:58:03 +0100 <freeside> I am currently building ghcup compile hls --git-ref 1.8.0.0 --ghc 9.2.5 --cabal-update ... seems to br running fine so far
2022-12-03 10:58:09 +0100 <tomsmeding> nice
2022-12-03 10:58:30 +0100 <freeside> would it be a good idea to bump the HLS version (from cabal file) to something like 1.8.0.1 to distinguish master from release 1.8.0.0?
2022-12-03 10:59:04 +0100 <tomsmeding> sounds like a job for 'ghcup compile hls --overwrite-version'
2022-12-03 11:00:01 +0100 <freeside> yeah. It's nice how ghcup gives an Info log Examining git ref ____, showing commit hash and HLS version.
2022-12-03 11:00:28 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 11:00:34 +0100 <tomsmeding> in certain communities 1.8.0.0-git would be the appropriate version tag
2022-12-03 11:00:37 +0100 <maerwald> you can also use --git-describe-version
2022-12-03 11:00:38 +0100 <freeside> wow, I am now pegging my CPU for the first time in a long time, doing two parallel builds using GHC 9.2.4 and 9.2.5. I trust the filenames will keep from colliding
2022-12-03 11:00:57 +0100 <tomsmeding> I can peg my cpu just fine with just one hls build lol
2022-12-03 11:01:07 +0100 <tomsmeding> and I have 20 virtual cores to fill
2022-12-03 11:01:10 +0100 <maerwald> freeside: ghcup does not do any locking
2022-12-03 11:01:15 +0100 <maerwald> so good luck
2022-12-03 11:02:18 +0100 <freeside> the builds seem to be happening in different ~/.ghcup/tmp/ghcup-* directories
2022-12-03 11:02:42 +0100 <maerwald> yes, but once it merges it will try to change symlinks in ~/.ghcup/bin
2022-12-03 11:02:44 +0100 <maerwald> that can blow up
2022-12-03 11:03:11 +0100husixu(~husixu@182.55.67.24) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-12-03 11:03:13 +0100 <freeside> i could see the wrapper -> wrapper-1.8.0.0 colliding, yes
2022-12-03 11:03:27 +0100 <tomsmeding> will it though? The binaries it'll install will be suffixed with the ghc version, and as long as you don't use 'ghcup set', will it update symlinks?
2022-12-03 11:04:49 +0100 <maerwald> the default for HLS is to set
2022-12-03 11:04:56 +0100 <tomsmeding> a
2022-12-03 11:04:57 +0100 <tomsmeding> *ah
2022-12-03 11:05:07 +0100 <maerwald> only for GHC the default is to do nothing
2022-12-03 11:05:13 +0100 <tomsmeding> may need to manually fix symlinks then afterwards
2022-12-03 11:05:28 +0100 <tomsmeding> the builds are unlikely to finish at precisely the same time though
2022-12-03 11:05:42 +0100 <maerwald> don't complain if it breaks your ghcup install though
2022-12-03 11:06:42 +0100 <tomsmeding> maerwald: people will complain anyway ;)
2022-12-03 11:07:03 +0100freesiderages idemimpotently
2022-12-03 11:07:24 +0100 <tomsmeding> similarly powerless?
2022-12-03 11:08:31 +0100king_gs(~Thunderbi@187.201.204.122)
2022-12-03 11:09:55 +0100Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
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2022-12-03 11:16:43 +0100 <freeside> dual to idempotently
2022-12-03 11:17:09 +0100 <freeside> anyway, i have built --git-ref 1.8.0.0 --ghc 9.2.5
2022-12-03 11:18:50 +0100 <freeside> on both M1 and Intel
2022-12-03 11:19:01 +0100 <tomsmeding> nice! and does it work?
2022-12-03 11:19:18 +0100 <freeside> I'm seeing lsp-log has an InternalError: typecheck but I don't know how internal that error really is
2022-12-03 11:19:50 +0100 <freeside> that error line appears to be pinned to the bottom of the buffer. then it says Live bytes: 44.43MB ...
2022-12-03 11:20:03 +0100 <freeside> to see if it works, i will go back to my lts-20.2 project
2022-12-03 11:23:06 +0100 <freeside> ah, yes, after restarting emacs, my ghcide 9.2.4/9.2.5 error has gone away, and the lsp-log has no more errors, and i am getting all the hover magic i am used to seeing
2022-12-03 11:23:26 +0100 <tomsmeding> yay!
2022-12-03 11:23:32 +0100 <freeside> yay, thank you for all the help
2022-12-03 11:23:39 +0100 <tomsmeding> thanks for your persistence
2022-12-03 11:24:12 +0100 <freeside> now i feel like this experience should in fact go into some sort of survival guide; doing --git-ref 1.8.0.0 instead of --version 1.8.0.0 was key, but that's not in the instructions at https://haskell-language-server.readthedocs.io/en/latest/installation.html
2022-12-03 11:25:23 +0100 <freeside> --git-ref master is mentioned at https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/guide/#hls
2022-12-03 11:25:58 +0100chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:7a0c:6a00:1ac0:4dff:fedb:a3f1) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 11:26:26 +0100 <freeside> it seems to me that a decision table of | OS (Windows, Linux, Mac) | hardware (M1, M2, Intel) | ghc version | HLS version | is almost ready to spring into existence
2022-12-03 11:27:06 +0100 <tomsmeding> where every cell in that 4-dimensional table is a boolean?
2022-12-03 11:27:09 +0100 <tomsmeding> yeah
2022-12-03 11:27:23 +0100 <freeside> well, something that helps you decide how to run a build command
2022-12-03 11:27:33 +0100 <tomsmeding> I am most particularly looking forward to the (Windows, M2) subtable
2022-12-03 11:27:44 +0100 <freeside> for my next trick, I will chance the ruination of all this good work by upgrading the emacs-side lsp-haskell-whatever-mode
2022-12-03 11:27:46 +0100 <tomsmeding> good luck there
2022-12-03 11:27:50 +0100 <freeside> haha
2022-12-03 11:27:51 +0100 <tomsmeding> lol
2022-12-03 11:28:07 +0100 <tomsmeding> (Linux, M2) is now actually kinda a thing with Asahi
2022-12-03 11:30:13 +0100tomsmedingis afk for a while
2022-12-03 11:30:21 +0100 <freeside> ur fingers deserve a rest, thnu
2022-12-03 11:30:23 +0100 <freeside> thnku
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2022-12-03 13:28:18 +0100jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
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2022-12-03 14:37:22 +0100jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
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2022-12-03 16:38:24 +0100ozkutuk5(~ozkutuk@176.240.173.153)
2022-12-03 16:40:00 +0100azimut_(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
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2022-12-03 17:00:35 +0100nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
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2022-12-03 17:06:12 +0100 <freeside> so, I'm about to ask a question, and I suspect the answer is going to be "that's just how it is. buy more RAM"
2022-12-03 17:06:21 +0100 <freeside> can you guess what the question is lol
2022-12-03 17:08:24 +0100 <geekosaur> the alternative answer is often "do less type level or generics shenanigans"
2022-12-03 17:09:47 +0100 <freeside> the question is "why is haskell-language-server taking up so much RAM"
2022-12-03 17:10:26 +0100 <geekosaur> I think it just caches a lot, but #haskell-language-server is more likely to know
2022-12-03 17:11:13 +0100 <freeside> (^^)v
2022-12-03 17:12:00 +0100mbuf(~Shakthi@49.204.140.192) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-12-03 17:19:18 +0100ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.143.75)
2022-12-03 17:20:01 +0100ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.143.75) (Client Quit)
2022-12-03 17:20:36 +0100 <freeside> hey, i just saw something cool ... after the upgrade to 9.2.5, a stray `fromJust` blew up on a Nothing value, but in addition to the usual error Maybe.fromJust: Nothing, I got a stack trace! (from HasCallStack)! how cool!
2022-12-03 17:21:18 +0100 <freeside> I didn't even compile with --profile
2022-12-03 17:21:24 +0100ddellacosta(~ddellacos@143.244.47.100)
2022-12-03 17:23:35 +0100 <freeside> is this a free new feature in v9?
2022-12-03 17:32:35 +0100nihonium(~nihonium@83.220.239.213) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2022-12-03 17:34:43 +0100ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2022-12-03 17:35:05 +0100razetime(~quassel@49.207.211.219) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2022-12-03 17:38:16 +0100zer0bitz(~zer0bitz@196.244.192.58)
2022-12-03 17:39:40 +0100 <geekosaur> they've gradually been adding it to things, yes
2022-12-03 17:42:02 +0100 <freeside> nice. love it.
2022-12-03 17:42:23 +0100 <freeside> I will add "stack traces" to my List of Features That Python Stole From Haskell
2022-12-03 17:43:19 +0100aeroplane(~user@user/aeroplane)
2022-12-03 17:51:51 +0100 <geekosaur> I'm quite certain Pythin had them first. CallStack was experimental in ghc8 and is still being worked in
2022-12-03 17:54:17 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-12-03 17:56:30 +0100coot(~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba)
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2022-12-03 17:56:50 +0100 <freeside> joke, joke
2022-12-03 18:04:14 +0100sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-12-03 18:04:22 +0100sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10)
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2022-12-03 18:18:35 +0100Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus)
2022-12-03 18:23:02 +0100basti_(~basti@ip-084-119-008-088.um24.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 18:24:14 +0100 <tomsmeding> freeside: I had this screenshot sent to me at some point https://tomsmeding.com/vang/aAiRo6/hls-memory.png
2022-12-03 18:24:30 +0100 <tomsmeding> I hope it's not that bad yet on your side
2022-12-03 18:25:06 +0100money_(~money@pool-100-11-18-203.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
2022-12-03 18:28:52 +0100merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-12-03 18:32:55 +0100sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2022-12-03 18:34:01 +0100 <monochrom> That's... epic. :)
2022-12-03 18:34:13 +0100sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10)
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2022-12-03 18:50:28 +0100pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2022-12-03 18:50:53 +0100Lycurgus(~juan@user/Lycurgus) (Quit: Exeunt https://tinyurl.com/4m8d4kd5)
2022-12-03 18:57:09 +0100bobbingbob(~dfadsva@2604:3d09:207f:f650::7b3a)
2022-12-03 18:58:37 +0100 <bobbingbob> so i was trying to learn how to do haskell development with nix. are we supposed to run nix commands as root?
2022-12-03 18:59:44 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:dc47:5d05:725b:66f2)
2022-12-03 19:00:30 +0100 <bobbingbob> ah i think i will just stick with cabal.
2022-12-03 19:01:15 +0100 <bobbingbob> today i'm going to try to learn about segmentation algorithms and will try to get something going in haskell
2022-12-03 19:02:15 +0100Scraeling(~Scraeling@user/scraeling)
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2022-12-03 19:06:43 +0100money_(~money@pool-100-11-18-203.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Changing host)
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2022-12-03 19:09:47 +0100 <geekosaur> I think the only thing you normally run as root is the initial install, so it can create /nix
2022-12-03 19:09:57 +0100 <geekosaur> everything else you run as a user
2022-12-03 19:11:13 +0100econo(uid147250@user/econo)
2022-12-03 19:14:27 +0100ss4(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2022-12-03 19:16:39 +0100pagnol(~user@213-205-209-87.ftth.glasoperator.nl)
2022-12-03 19:17:00 +0100wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 19:18:05 +0100 <pagnol> Sometimes I find myself wanting to quickly write a one-off script in Haskell without going through lengthy incantations like setting up a project
2022-12-03 19:18:10 +0100 <pagnol> Are there ways to do that?
2022-12-03 19:18:27 +0100 <EvanR> a cabal script can be used for a 1 file program, to bring in packages
2022-12-03 19:18:42 +0100 <geekosaur> both cabal and stack have script modes. and for really quick stuff there's runhaskell
2022-12-03 19:18:42 +0100 <EvanR> sometimes I use that for advent of code
2022-12-03 19:18:49 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Quit: Reconnecting)
2022-12-03 19:19:01 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com)
2022-12-03 19:19:01 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
2022-12-03 19:19:01 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2022-12-03 19:20:15 +0100 <EvanR> what's the difference between cabal run and runhaskell
2022-12-03 19:20:30 +0100 <geekosaur> cabal run has access to the cabal package store
2022-12-03 19:20:40 +0100 <geekosaur> runhaskell has only the ghc global package db
2022-12-03 19:20:46 +0100 <EvanR> ah
2022-12-03 19:21:04 +0100 <geekosaur> also cabal run compiles things, runhaskell is an interpreter
2022-12-03 19:21:26 +0100 <sclv> also i believe cabal run is compiles by default these days while runhaskell is evaluated
2022-12-03 19:21:28 +0100 <pagnol> so like this? https://stackoverflow.com/a/65541020
2022-12-03 19:21:53 +0100ss4(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-12-03 19:22:08 +0100wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2022-12-03 19:22:08 +0100 <EvanR> yeah, though the code for splitOn might take up less space xD
2022-12-03 19:22:35 +0100 <EvanR> shame it's not in the standard library somewhere
2022-12-03 19:22:56 +0100 <geekosaur> yeh, splitOn is trivially writable with break/span, seems odd to bring in a dependency just for that
2022-12-03 19:23:42 +0100 <geekosaur> well, they are trying to split as much about of the standard library as possible, just to minimize the amout of stuff that cn only be upgraded by upgrading ghc
2022-12-03 19:24:18 +0100 <geekosaur> there's currently a discussion about making all of base that way (the ghc-pinned part moved to a new ghc-base package and then base itself can be upgraded)
2022-12-03 19:25:49 +0100 <EvanR> currently if you want to use a package (splitOn may be trivial, but vectors or containers not) via the cabal script that stops you from also ghci testing as you go
2022-12-03 19:26:10 +0100 <EvanR> moving more out of the prelude makes that harsher?
2022-12-03 19:26:21 +0100 <EvanR> or base
2022-12-03 19:26:43 +0100 <geekosaur> moving more out of base just means less stuff that's unnecessarily pinned to ghc
2022-12-03 19:26:57 +0100 <sclv> well you can use a project file and “cabal repl”
2022-12-03 19:26:59 +0100 <geekosaur> splitting base itself into pinned and unpinned parts mitigates that
2022-12-03 19:27:08 +0100Xeroine(~Xeroine@user/xeroine) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-12-03 19:27:12 +0100 <EvanR> yeah this is moot if you set up a formal project
2022-12-03 19:27:33 +0100 <money> moot?
2022-12-03 19:27:52 +0100Xeroine(~Xeroine@user/xeroine)
2022-12-03 19:28:14 +0100 <EvanR> subject was quick one off script that uses non-base stuff, with less pomp and circumstance
2022-12-03 19:29:13 +0100 <EvanR> not sure how geekosaur changes the non-base part
2022-12-03 19:29:22 +0100 <EvanR> er, what geekosaur is talking about
2022-12-03 19:30:11 +0100 <geekosaur> it shouldn't change it, base moves from non-upgradeable part to small non-upgradeable core and larger upgradeable boot package
2022-12-03 19:30:25 +0100 <geekosaur> like text is currently a boot package but can be upgraded
2022-12-03 19:30:26 +0100 <EvanR> oh if there is pinned and unpinned part, you could hypotheticall just have splitOn and chunksOf in the unpinned part
2022-12-03 19:30:50 +0100 <geekosaur> right, it makes it easier to bring useful utils into base without pinning thyem to ghc at the same time
2022-12-03 19:31:14 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 19:31:27 +0100dsrt^(~dsrt@76.145.185.103)
2022-12-03 19:31:51 +0100 <geekosaur> might even let us think about starting to use Text and ByteString APIs instead of String in base
2022-12-03 19:32:13 +0100 <geekosaur> since making those non-upgradeable would be Bad
2022-12-03 19:32:54 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2022-12-03 19:33:26 +0100 <EvanR> oh hell yeah
2022-12-03 19:34:39 +0100 <geekosaur> and have a compat-base for older code that continued to use the older APIs
2022-12-03 19:35:18 +0100 <EvanR> which API exactly, like getLine
2022-12-03 19:35:22 +0100ss4(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2022-12-03 19:35:24 +0100 <EvanR> readFile
2022-12-03 19:35:51 +0100 <geekosaur> yep. the exact APIs would probably be bikeskedded to death though 🙂
2022-12-03 19:35:57 +0100 <geekosaur> *bikeshedded
2022-12-03 19:38:13 +0100 <cpli> https://tio.run/##jVCxbsIwFNz9FSfokAioyhopGZG6IaFOiOE1foGoiVvZpqRq@@2p4xhIyYIXn@7du7PvQOaNq6ptvxdTVKT2R9ozXpTkvJT0WvGzMpZUzgbTxa8QkixhpZlRgJBifdTswE/PRQWi8zCOhSjDMqLN4f0EmsPf/2Ux0izwFxKnA2sWgHG8WWvOIRH1YU7v6TVpVogkMiyfYjx4cmN1qfaYeOkEjwOD5RJ06@gD67scvXTkWIdKNl/KUrOqyLr3p@iAZcUS22IHybr87Ey6XwpR@KFGkvStDXYJi2xMXjYGDfToOun7v@aOiMbESGCprHzlrolwRpuNwWwWlDcBnUmKAIWwbOwqCNKR0XZE@EdH8RwB7IZQiJpK5Xw@XOHWtX@OHqS07R8
2022-12-03 19:38:19 +0100kuribas(~user@ptr-17d51elyntgmmzbvw93.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2022-12-03 19:38:23 +0100wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-12-03 19:38:37 +0100 <cpli> how would i properly implement `flatter` by using combinators on Free monads?
2022-12-03 19:40:16 +0100tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2022-12-03 19:44:56 +0100coot(~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba)
2022-12-03 19:45:05 +0100turlando(~turlando@user/turlando) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2022-12-03 19:49:49 +0100 <cpli> correction: https://tio.run/##jVCxbsIwFNz9FSdgSARUzRopGZG6IaFOiOEVv0DUxK1sU6jafnvqOA6kZOnk0717d893JPPKVdU0X8spKlKHEx0Yz0ryvpT0UvGTMpbUng2myx8hJFnCSjOjACHD@qTZge@OiwpE/TCOhSjDMqLN8e0MWsC/f2UxsjzwVxLnI2sWgHG8WWveQyLqwpze02vSrBBJ5EgeY8w8ubG6VAdMvHSCh4FBkoDuHX1g/S9HLx051qGSzaeydFlVZN39GVpgWbHEtthBsi4/WpP2l0IUfqiRpl1rg13CMh@T141BAx26Tbr@b7kj4mJipLBUVr5y10S/O8No@WIwnwfxXUbrkyFAISwbuwqCbGS0HRH@7iheIIDdEApRU6mcz7vr3LrD@uhBStP8Ag
2022-12-03 19:52:28 +0100finsternis(~X@23.226.237.192)
2022-12-03 19:53:53 +0100Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@108.175.84.104) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 19:54:30 +0100 <mniip> cpli, equationally I think this is always flatter = wrap . retract
2022-12-03 19:54:46 +0100Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@108.175.84.104)
2022-12-03 19:55:22 +0100 <mniip> wrap . fmap pure . retract
2022-12-03 19:56:14 +0100ss4(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-12-03 19:56:32 +0100gurkenglas(~gurkengla@p548ac72e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 20:00:20 +0100 <mniip> ah wait my bad, they disagree on Free [Pure _, Free _, ...]
2022-12-03 20:00:46 +0100 <mniip> tbh that makes me think this operation doesn't have the vibe of being relevant to free monads
2022-12-03 20:02:11 +0100nihonium(~nihonium@46.148.105.76)
2022-12-03 20:12:01 +0100jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2022-12-03 20:15:43 +0100causal(~user@50.35.83.177) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-12-03 20:17:40 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-12-03 20:18:51 +0100Guest13(~Guest13@c83-248-102-237.bredband.tele2.se)
2022-12-03 20:19:26 +0100jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2022-12-03 20:21:53 +0100Guest13(~Guest13@c83-248-102-237.bredband.tele2.se) (Client Quit)
2022-12-03 20:25:01 +0100 <cpli> mniip you're here too??
2022-12-03 20:25:04 +0100 <cpli> huh
2022-12-03 20:25:12 +0100 <cpli> how's study going?
2022-12-03 20:25:21 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-017.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-12-03 20:25:24 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
2022-12-03 20:26:53 +0100 <cpli> hmm
2022-12-03 20:27:00 +0100kuribas(~user@ptr-17d51elyntgmmzbvw93.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2022-12-03 20:27:10 +0100 <cpli> really this is part of something that turns
2022-12-03 20:27:22 +0100 <cpli> data SyntaxDeep f = App f f deriving Show
2022-12-03 20:27:32 +0100 <cpli> into
2022-12-03 20:27:32 +0100 <cpli> data SyntaxFlat f = Flattened [f] deriving Show
2022-12-03 20:27:45 +0100 <cpli> so couldn't i retract on syntaxDeep?
2022-12-03 20:28:16 +0100 <cpli> not really.. since it would just flatten all applications, but i want to preserve (g a) in "f b (g a)"
2022-12-03 20:29:11 +0100causal(~user@50.35.85.7)
2022-12-03 20:29:57 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-03 20:34:05 +0100sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2022-12-03 20:35:12 +0100sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10)
2022-12-03 20:36:54 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
2022-12-03 20:37:58 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 20:38:34 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-12-03 20:38:54 +0100troydm(~troydm@host-176-37-124-197.b025.la.net.ua) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 20:41:45 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-12-03 20:42:22 +0100money(~money@user/polo) (Quit: money)
2022-12-03 20:42:41 +0100neminis(~neminis@43.21.135.77.rev.sfr.net)
2022-12-03 20:43:06 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
2022-12-03 20:43:16 +0100stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 20:43:21 +0100 <tomsmeding> % putStrLn "mniip: because yahb was gone I made a replacement"
2022-12-03 20:43:21 +0100 <yahb2> mniip: because yahb was gone I made a replacement
2022-12-03 20:43:32 +0100money(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 20:43:45 +0100stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
2022-12-03 20:44:16 +0100 <geekosaur> I still kinda miss the pastebin functionality though
2022-12-03 20:44:28 +0100 <geekosaur> %% putStrLn "doesn't work"
2022-12-03 20:44:49 +0100Guest13(~Guest13@c83-248-102-237.bredband.tele2.se)
2022-12-03 20:45:22 +0100money(~money@user/polo) (Client Quit)
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2022-12-03 20:45:39 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:5d48:f2d9:c47:66b6)
2022-12-03 20:45:50 +0100money(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 20:46:18 +0100gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 20:46:18 +0100azimut_(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 20:46:18 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 20:46:18 +0100califax(~califax@user/califx) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-12-03 20:46:47 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-12-03 20:46:59 +0100neminis(~neminis@43.21.135.77.rev.sfr.net) (Client Quit)
2022-12-03 20:47:07 +0100gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-12-03 20:47:18 +0100califax(~califax@user/califx)
2022-12-03 20:47:32 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2022-12-03 20:50:26 +0100money(~money@user/polo) (Client Quit)
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2022-12-03 20:54:12 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
2022-12-03 20:54:26 +0100Guest13(~Guest13@c83-248-102-237.bredband.tele2.se) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-12-03 20:54:42 +0100titibandit(~titibandi@xdsl-78-35-173-119.nc.de) (Quit: Leaving.)
2022-12-03 20:55:17 +0100money(~money@user/polo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-12-03 20:55:24 +0100chexum_(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2022-12-03 20:56:44 +0100money_(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 20:58:44 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-12-03 20:58:44 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-017.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-03 20:58:57 +0100money_(~money@user/polo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-12-03 20:59:06 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2022-12-03 20:59:19 +0100Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2022-12-03 21:00:01 +0100sagax(~sagax_nb@user/sagax) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-12-03 21:00:18 +0100money(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 21:01:13 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:dc47:5d05:725b:66f2)
2022-12-03 21:05:43 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
2022-12-03 21:05:46 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:dc47:5d05:725b:66f2) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-12-03 21:09:24 +0100anpad(~pandeyan@user/anpad) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2022-12-03 21:09:41 +0100anpad(~pandeyan@user/anpad)
2022-12-03 21:10:24 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 21:10:42 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:5d48:f2d9:c47:66b6) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2022-12-03 21:11:30 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
2022-12-03 21:12:59 +0100crazazy`(~user@130.89.173.127)
2022-12-03 21:14:44 +0100crazazy(~user@130.89.171.62) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-12-03 21:16:17 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-12-03 21:17:23 +0100nihonium(~nihonium@46.148.105.76) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 21:17:33 +0100coot(~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba) (Quit: coot)
2022-12-03 21:18:08 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7137a51dd9a34ca5f6ed83a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-12-03 21:22:01 +0100money(~money@user/polo) (Quit: money)
2022-12-03 21:22:08 +0100TimWolla(~timwolla@2a01:4f8:150:6153:beef::6667) (Quit: Bye)
2022-12-03 21:22:38 +0100money(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 21:23:02 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
2022-12-03 21:24:09 +0100 <mniip> cpli, I graduated this summer
2022-12-03 21:28:09 +0100TimWolla(~timwolla@2a01:4f8:150:6153:beef::6667)
2022-12-03 21:28:13 +0100 <cpli> huh
2022-12-03 21:28:33 +0100 <cpli> math?
2022-12-03 21:28:50 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 21:30:05 +0100neminis(~neminis@43.21.135.77.rev.sfr.net)
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2022-12-03 21:31:18 +0100rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@bras-base-wdston4533w-grc-02-142-113-160-156.dsl.bell.ca)
2022-12-03 21:31:37 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
2022-12-03 21:33:44 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 21:34:37 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-12-03 21:35:39 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7137a51dd9a34ca5f6ed83a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-12-03 21:41:49 +0100azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 21:44:11 +0100azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2022-12-03 21:45:46 +0100hpc(~juzz@ip98-169-35-163.dc.dc.cox.net)
2022-12-03 21:45:55 +0100troydm(~troydm@host-176-37-124-197.b025.la.net.ua)
2022-12-03 21:46:32 +0100hpc(~juzz@ip98-169-35-163.dc.dc.cox.net) (Client Quit)
2022-12-03 21:46:44 +0100hpc(~juzz@ip98-169-35-163.dc.dc.cox.net)
2022-12-03 21:49:06 +0100money(~money@user/polo) (Quit: money)
2022-12-03 21:50:45 +0100money_(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 21:51:25 +0100hpc(~juzz@ip98-169-35-163.dc.dc.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2022-12-03 21:52:31 +0100fockerize(~finn@roc37-h01-176-170-197-243.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr)
2022-12-03 21:53:10 +0100money_(~money@user/polo) (Client Quit)
2022-12-03 21:53:53 +0100money_(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 21:58:22 +0100pagnol(~user@213-205-209-87.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2022-12-03 22:01:26 +0100money_(~money@user/polo) (Quit: money_)
2022-12-03 22:01:50 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:dc47:5d05:725b:66f2)
2022-12-03 22:01:59 +0100money_(~money@user/polo)
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2022-12-03 22:07:38 +0100king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:94a4:81e0:429b:22ec:cf13)
2022-12-03 22:08:07 +0100neminis(~neminis@43.21.135.77.rev.sfr.net) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-12-03 22:10:06 +0100money_(~money@user/polo) (Quit: money_)
2022-12-03 22:10:31 +0100Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon)
2022-12-03 22:10:44 +0100money_(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 22:11:21 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 22:11:54 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-12-03 22:12:26 +0100money_(~money@user/polo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-12-03 22:12:52 +0100Sauvin(~sauvin@user/Sauvin) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-12-03 22:13:11 +0100money_(~money@user/polo)
2022-12-03 22:15:49 +0100Sauvin(~sauvin@user/Sauvin)
2022-12-03 22:19:23 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-03 22:20:48 +0100money(Guest1418@user/polo)
2022-12-03 22:27:03 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-12-03 22:27:14 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 22:27:40 +0100Bocaneri(~sauvin@user/Sauvin)
2022-12-03 22:27:47 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-12-03 22:28:02 +0100glguy_glguy
2022-12-03 22:28:03 +0100BocaneriGuest6927
2022-12-03 22:29:15 +0100yahb2(~yahb2@static.56.27.47.78.clients.your-server.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 22:29:27 +0100yahb2(~yahb2@2a01:4f8:c0c:5c7b::2)
2022-12-03 22:29:30 +0100Sauvin(~sauvin@user/Sauvin) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Guest6927)))
2022-12-03 22:29:36 +0100Guest6927Sauvin
2022-12-03 22:30:21 +0100 <tomsmeding> %% putStrLn "geekosaur tells lies"
2022-12-03 22:30:21 +0100 <yahb2> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/IYICDlAa
2022-12-03 22:30:33 +0100gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 22:31:04 +0100 <tomsmeding> it creates pastes that expire in 1 day currently
2022-12-03 22:32:23 +0100chexum_(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 22:33:12 +0100 <monochrom> May I use %%% to extend it to 2 days? :)
2022-12-03 22:33:14 +0100gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-12-03 22:33:18 +0100 <tomsmeding> haha
2022-12-03 22:33:44 +0100 <monochrom> "No, %%% means two independent pastebins" :)
2022-12-03 22:33:50 +0100 <glguy> I've been making a little clone of Patrick's Parabox https://imgur.com/a/djAxYWg https://glguy.net/gitea/glguy/parabox (warning, the screen shots are spoilers for two of the puzzle solutions)
2022-12-03 22:34:19 +0100 <geekosaur> tomsmeding, thanks!
2022-12-03 22:35:20 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 22:35:20 +0100 <tomsmeding> monochrom: and then it prints the two urls received interleaved, so you get hhttttppss::////ppaassttee..dteobmisamne.dnientg/... etc
2022-12-03 22:35:37 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2022-12-03 22:35:48 +0100ski__(~slj@ext-1-443.eduroam.chalmers.se) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-12-03 22:35:57 +0100 <EvanR> %% many (randomRIO (0,1) >>= \x -> case x of 0 -> putChar 'a'; 1 -> empty)
2022-12-03 22:35:57 +0100 <yahb2> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/943EqmSh
2022-12-03 22:36:15 +0100 <EvanR> blast
2022-12-03 22:36:18 +0100 <tomsmeding> :p
2022-12-03 22:36:52 +0100 <monochrom> haha tomsmeding that's a cool feature
2022-12-03 22:37:09 +0100 <monochrom> or rather s/'s/ would be/
2022-12-03 22:37:31 +0100 <tomsmeding> % interleave [] l = l ; interleave l [] = l ; interleave (x:xs) (y:ys) = x : y : interleave xs ys
2022-12-03 22:37:31 +0100 <yahb2> <no output>
2022-12-03 22:37:49 +0100 <EvanR> patrick's parabox?
2022-12-03 22:37:55 +0100tcard_(~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:19ce:ed82:2ab7:90f9) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-12-03 22:37:57 +0100 <monochrom> The interleaving should be randomized.
2022-12-03 22:38:40 +0100 <glguy> EvanR: a sokoban-like puzzle game on Steam that features recursion; levels are blocks on other levels and can be contained in themselves
2022-12-03 22:38:45 +0100 <tomsmeding> monochrom: some of my code prints un-synchronised log messages from multiple haskell threads and when they step on each others' toes, they get interleaved _almost_ perfectly character-by-character
2022-12-03 22:38:52 +0100 <tomsmeding> I'm amazed every time I see it
2022-12-03 22:38:52 +0100 <EvanR> oh nice
2022-12-03 22:38:56 +0100 <EvanR> like Infinite Turtles
2022-12-03 22:40:51 +0100 <EvanR> yes very much in similar spirit
2022-12-03 22:41:44 +0100 <geekosaur> sadly I no longer have the one I worked out ("you have a problem and you decide to use threads, now <interleaved gibberish>")
2022-12-03 22:42:01 +0100stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 22:42:58 +0100 <EvanR> glguy, can I have your terminal that supports the doubly infinite nesting? Sounds handy
2022-12-03 22:43:29 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 22:43:44 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2022-12-03 22:44:35 +0100fockerize(~finn@roc37-h01-176-170-197-243.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-12-03 22:44:54 +0100 <EvanR> interleaved gibberish is a luxury. Back in the type writer days the output would be striked over itself and misaligned
2022-12-03 22:44:59 +0100 <tomsmeding> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/BFVvzpf5
2022-12-03 22:46:19 +0100 <EvanR> that threads get interrupted after 1 character is insane, is it really doing outputting 1 character at a time
2022-12-03 22:46:30 +0100money_(~money@user/polo) (Quit: money_)
2022-12-03 22:48:01 +0100stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
2022-12-03 22:48:08 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
2022-12-03 22:48:43 +0100 <tomsmeding> EvanR: I mean I literally got these log lines just now, first try: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/FbiXiCbz
2022-12-03 22:48:50 +0100 <tomsmeding> first two lines are the log, 5-7 are my decomposition
2022-12-03 22:49:02 +0100 <tomsmeding> oh the L is a typo, should be : obviously
2022-12-03 22:49:16 +0100 <glguy> Often stderr is unbuffered and one character at a time while stdout is line buffered
2022-12-03 22:49:18 +0100 <EvanR> maybe it gets interrupted way faster than once per character
2022-12-03 22:49:20 +0100 <mauke> I bet it's a consequence of String = [Char]
2022-12-03 22:49:54 +0100 <EvanR> every once in a while you see a character, and since it's the same code, same rate of characters
2022-12-03 22:51:20 +0100azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-03 22:51:31 +0100 <tomsmeding> the log messages indeed go to stderr
2022-12-03 22:52:01 +0100 <tomsmeding> so probably that, plus a decent probability that those two haskell threads are still scheduled on the same physical core
2022-12-03 22:52:09 +0100 <tomsmeding> so the rts scheduler just round-robins
2022-12-03 22:52:13 +0100mrkun[m](~mrkunmatr@2001:470:69fc:105::2:2a39)
2022-12-03 22:52:35 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-03 22:52:48 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 22:53:08 +0100gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-03 22:53:08 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-03 22:53:08 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-12-03 22:53:18 +0100 <tomsmeding> EvanR: I'd hope that traversing a link in a linked list is faster than doing a write(2) syscall on stderr :)
2022-12-03 22:53:40 +0100 <tomsmeding> so probably just the rts yielding on every IO operation
2022-12-03 22:53:51 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-12-03 22:54:11 +0100 <dsal> traverse write "some string"
2022-12-03 22:55:19 +0100husixu(~husixu@182.55.67.24) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 22:55:27 +0100azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2022-12-03 22:55:27 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2022-12-03 22:55:27 +0100 <EvanR> if "some string" is a non trivial list program, there may be many more opportunities to yield
2022-12-03 22:55:37 +0100gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-12-03 22:55:49 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-017.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-12-03 22:55:56 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2022-12-03 22:56:25 +0100 <tomsmeding> EvanR: look at the strings in my paste
2022-12-03 22:56:40 +0100 <tomsmeding> maybe some parts are nontrivial, but significant chunks are string literals
2022-12-03 22:56:55 +0100 <EvanR> the last paste was a paste of a paste, exhausting my depth limit
2022-12-03 22:57:22 +0100 <dsal> Heh. I had to check twice.
2022-12-03 22:57:47 +0100michalz(~michalz@185.246.204.93) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 22:58:01 +0100 <EvanR> it seems to be a loop
2022-12-03 22:59:57 +0100 <dsal> > let paste = paste in paste
2022-12-03 22:59:59 +0100 <lambdabot> *Exception: <<loop>>
2022-12-03 23:00:30 +0100 <tomsmeding> EvanR: lol yes that one is a little magic
2022-12-03 23:00:35 +0100 <tomsmeding> but I was referring to this one https://paste.tomsmeding.com/FbiXiCbz
2022-12-03 23:00:56 +0100thyriaen(~thyriaen@2a01:aea0:dd4:470d:6245:cbff:fe9f:48b1)
2022-12-03 23:01:17 +0100accord(uid568320@id-568320.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2022-12-03 23:01:25 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 23:02:13 +0100 <geekosaur> also last time I looked putStr didn't buffer the whole string as a single chunk, it looped doing putChar
2022-12-03 23:02:25 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2022-12-03 23:02:38 +0100 <geekosaur> which makes it far more likely that you get character interleaving
2022-12-03 23:03:23 +0100 <tomsmeding> if putChar itself (without the time spent in write(2), if unbuffered) takes an amount of time even remotely comparible to write(2), then it is ridiculously inefficient
2022-12-03 23:03:26 +0100tomokojun_(~tomokojun@37.19.221.160)
2022-12-03 23:03:30 +0100 <tomsmeding> *comparable
2022-12-03 23:03:47 +0100tomokojun(~tomokojun@37.19.221.160) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 23:04:04 +0100 <EvanR> honestly I'm glad it does that, because clojure's equivalent of list evaluates a magic number of elements at a time. So if you want to print just the first letter, an error in the 9th letter means you get no letters
2022-12-03 23:04:23 +0100 <EvanR> but not if there's an error in the 34th letter
2022-12-03 23:04:28 +0100tomokojun_tomokojun
2022-12-03 23:04:28 +0100tomokojun(~tomokojun@37.19.221.160) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 23:04:29 +0100 <tomsmeding> yeah for stderr I guess it's the right thing to do
2022-12-03 23:04:40 +0100 <geekosaur> that should not come up
2022-12-03 23:04:48 +0100tomokojun(~tomokojun@37.19.221.160)
2022-12-03 23:05:40 +0100 <geekosaur> if you want to print just the firts letter of ('a':undefined) it shopuld work either way. and it should fail either way if you putStr ('a':'b':undefined)
2022-12-03 23:06:09 +0100king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:94a4:81e0:429b:22ec:cf13) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2022-12-03 23:06:17 +0100 <EvanR> % putStr ('a':'b':undefined)
2022-12-03 23:06:17 +0100 <yahb2> ab*** Exception: Prelude.undefined ; CallStack (from HasCallStack): ; error, called at libraries/base/GHC/Err.hs:74:14 in base:GHC.Err ; undefined, called at <interactive>:14:17 in interactive:...
2022-12-03 23:06:27 +0100 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: not on stdout with optimisations enabled
2022-12-03 23:06:43 +0100 <tomsmeding> oh the optimisations are a red herring, correction: not on stdout when compiled
2022-12-03 23:07:07 +0100 <tomsmeding> in ghci, yes, because in ghci stdout is also unbuffered
2022-12-03 23:07:59 +0100 <EvanR> oof
2022-12-03 23:08:22 +0100 <EvanR> ./Main -- doesn't print ab
2022-12-03 23:08:28 +0100 <EvanR> runhaskell Main.hs -- prints ab
2022-12-03 23:09:06 +0100 <EvanR> I guess this is where someone comes out and says "I told you IO has no semantics" xD
2022-12-03 23:09:22 +0100 <tomsmeding> %% System.Process.system "echo \"main = putStrLn ('a':undefined)\" >b.hs; ghc b.hs -o b; ./b"
2022-12-03 23:09:22 +0100 <yahb2> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/0OwSOd1M
2022-12-03 23:09:31 +0100 <mauke> personally I think it should peek ahead to see how much of the string is already defined
2022-12-03 23:09:35 +0100 <tomsmeding> oh lol
2022-12-03 23:10:04 +0100 <tomsmeding> EvanR: this buffering thing is literally the case in almost every programming language
2022-12-03 23:10:51 +0100 <EvanR> ok it's the OS buffering behavior and not putStr doing two different things, at least
2022-12-03 23:11:08 +0100 <tomsmeding> EvanR: putStr is probably doing two different things
2022-12-03 23:11:15 +0100 <EvanR> o_O
2022-12-03 23:11:24 +0100 <tomsmeding> which is just like in C, C++, Java, JavaScript, Python, Rust, Go, name your language
2022-12-03 23:11:26 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 23:11:47 +0100 <EvanR> @src putStr -- second opinion
2022-12-03 23:11:47 +0100 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just what do you think you're doing Dave?
2022-12-03 23:11:52 +0100 <tomsmeding> EvanR: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.0.0/docs/System-IO.html#g:12
2022-12-03 23:12:08 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2022-12-03 23:12:09 +0100 <geekosaur> pretty much every language does buffering because without it performance absolutely sucks
2022-12-03 23:12:11 +0100 <tomsmeding> EvanR: stdout is LineBuffering by default, stderr NoBuffering
2022-12-03 23:12:21 +0100 <EvanR> so ghc handles that
2022-12-03 23:12:25 +0100 <tomsmeding> you can hSetBuffering to change
2022-12-03 23:12:29 +0100 <geekosaur> doing a syscall on every character is horrid
2022-12-03 23:12:31 +0100 <EvanR> instead of C lib or the kernel
2022-12-03 23:12:37 +0100 <tomsmeding> yes
2022-12-03 23:12:49 +0100 <geekosaur> even in 2022 you can see individual characters get printed
2022-12-03 23:13:01 +0100 <EvanR> and the defaults are magically determined depending on build or not mode
2022-12-03 23:13:15 +0100 <tomsmeding> % System.Process.system "cd /tmp; echo \"main = putStrLn ('a':undefined)\" >b.hs; ghc b.hs -o b; ./b"
2022-12-03 23:13:16 +0100 <yahb2> [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( b.hs, b.o ) ; Linking b ... ; b: Prelude.undefined ; CallStack (from HasCallStack): ; error, called at libraries/base/GHC/Err.hs:74:14 in base:GHC.Err ; un...
2022-12-03 23:13:20 +0100 <tomsmeding> there we go
2022-12-03 23:13:39 +0100 <tomsmeding> EvanR: > The default buffering mode when a handle is opened is implementation-dependent and may depend on the file system object which is attached to that handle.
2022-12-03 23:14:25 +0100 <tomsmeding> furthermore, if stdout is a terminal it'll be LineBuffering, but if you pipe stdout to something else (a file or another program), it'll be BlockBuffering _
2022-12-03 23:15:14 +0100 <tomsmeding> same as in C, which is why e.g. grep(1) has --line-buffered, with the documentation (see `man 1 grep`) "This can cause a performance penalty."
2022-12-03 23:15:15 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 23:15:36 +0100zant(~zant@62.214.20.26)
2022-12-03 23:18:13 +0100 <cpli> if there's an invariant to an `f` in `Free f a` which is binary i.e. `Two f f` can i retract only the first f?
2022-12-03 23:18:14 +0100 <EvanR> that part makes sense
2022-12-03 23:18:52 +0100 <EvanR> but why is the mode one way in runhaskell and another way after compilation, on the same kind of handle / object
2022-12-03 23:19:08 +0100chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2022-12-03 23:19:16 +0100 <tomsmeding> EvanR: Because I guess it makes sense that the mode is NoBuffering in ghci, and runhaskell is literally ghci
2022-12-03 23:19:41 +0100 <geekosaur> because ghc cheats and decides the default mode based on whether it's using the bytecode backend instead of whether it's ghci
2022-12-03 23:19:51 +0100 <tomsmeding> doesn't explain why runhaskell doesn't hSetBuffering manually to smooth over the differences though
2022-12-03 23:20:01 +0100 <geekosaur> and ghci is unbuffered because haskeline requires it
2022-12-03 23:20:28 +0100 <geekosaur> (well, line editing in general, not haskeline in specific)
2022-12-03 23:20:38 +0100 <tomsmeding> not sure if haskeline is a great argument; ghci could very well switch buffering before and after executing a command
2022-12-03 23:21:24 +0100 <tomsmeding> but in ghci you kinda want to see partial output if an exception occurs halfway through
2022-12-03 23:21:47 +0100 <EvanR> and get a false impression of what will actually happen
2022-12-03 23:21:50 +0100 <EvanR> in production
2022-12-03 23:21:58 +0100Scraeling(~Scraeling@user/scraeling) (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com))
2022-12-03 23:22:01 +0100 <geekosaur> you're getting that anyway in ghci
2022-12-03 23:22:22 +0100 <tomsmeding> EvanR: asynchronous exceptions are unpredictable under optimisations anyway :p
2022-12-03 23:22:26 +0100 <EvanR> no! I want to spawn graphics windows and interactively debug my game! xD
2022-12-03 23:22:31 +0100 <tomsmeding> so not sure there were many guarantees to begin with
2022-12-03 23:23:02 +0100 <tomsmeding> EvanR: you can, right, from ghci? Will just be a bit slower :)
2022-12-03 23:23:13 +0100 <EvanR> yeah you can, and now I'm paranoid
2022-12-03 23:23:31 +0100 <EvanR> will answers like 5 be 6 in production
2022-12-03 23:23:38 +0100 <tomsmeding> no
2022-12-03 23:23:45 +0100 <tomsmeding> buffering is not _that_ big of a deal :p
2022-12-03 23:24:24 +0100 <tomsmeding> unless you actively rely on getting "ab** Exception ..." as output and parsing that, in which case, don't do that :p
2022-12-03 23:25:12 +0100 <EvanR> yeah in simple scenarios, and ignoring bottom, buffering only changes performance
2022-12-03 23:25:39 +0100 <tomsmeding> also in complex scenarios, assuming that your production app doesn't crash halfway through
2022-12-03 23:25:39 +0100 <EvanR> but if two processes are interacting, seeing nothing until "you" send a newline might cause deadlock
2022-12-03 23:25:45 +0100 <tomsmeding> ye
2022-12-03 23:25:46 +0100 <tomsmeding> s
2022-12-03 23:25:50 +0100 <tomsmeding> that's why hFlush exists
2022-12-03 23:25:58 +0100 <tomsmeding> everyone in every language has to deal with that :p
2022-12-03 23:26:20 +0100 <EvanR> worse excuse ever!
2022-12-03 23:26:40 +0100 <tomsmeding> buffering has a massive performance impact though, if you output lots of stuff
2022-12-03 23:26:59 +0100 <tomsmeding> writing to a terminal is SLOW, especially some ones (cough windows cmd)
2022-12-03 23:27:02 +0100bobbingbob(~dfadsva@2604:3d09:207f:f650::7b3a) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-12-03 23:27:33 +0100 <EvanR> some protocols send like single character datagrams at a time!
2022-12-03 23:27:45 +0100 <EvanR> how is that not 100 times worse xD
2022-12-03 23:27:54 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 23:28:09 +0100 <tomsmeding> EvanR: do they send lots of them in a batch? Or is a single message just 1 char, after which they wait for the other party
2022-12-03 23:28:18 +0100 <tomsmeding> in the former case, ... don't do that?
2022-12-03 23:28:33 +0100 <tomsmeding> I trust the number of users of such protocols is negligible :)
2022-12-03 23:28:41 +0100 <EvanR> they have to not batch so the other end gets timely updates
2022-12-03 23:28:44 +0100ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2022-12-03 23:28:46 +0100 <geekosaur> ssh
2022-12-03 23:28:58 +0100 <tomsmeding> right, unless your usecase requires it, sure
2022-12-03 23:29:11 +0100 <geekosaur> then again, there's a special mode for tcp/ip to support ssh and similar,m because it does buffering too
2022-12-03 23:29:14 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-017.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-12-03 23:29:46 +0100 <geekosaur> becuase, whether it's network transfer or terminal output or file output or etc., character at a time I/O is really expensive
2022-12-03 23:30:09 +0100 <EvanR> if it's from user input I guess it's not that bad
2022-12-03 23:32:53 +0100Topsi(~Topsi@dialin-80-228-141-008.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
2022-12-03 23:38:23 +0100jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net)
2022-12-03 23:39:31 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-12-03 23:49:24 +0100ballast(~ballast@rrcs-24-43-123-92.west.biz.rr.com)
2022-12-03 23:51:04 +0100Guest26(~Guest26@2001:999:488:5cc:e5b0:b492:b43a:8f46)
2022-12-03 23:54:54 +0100 <Guest26> @pl (\x -> splitAt (div (length x) 2) x)
2022-12-03 23:54:54 +0100 <lambdabot> splitAt =<< flip div 2 . length
2022-12-03 23:58:20 +0100takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-12-03 23:59:33 +0100 <Guest26> What does =<< mean?
2022-12-03 23:59:43 +0100 <mauke> @src (=<<)
2022-12-03 23:59:43 +0100 <lambdabot> f =<< x = x >>= f
2022-12-03 23:59:44 +0100fockerize(~finn@roc37-h01-176-170-197-243.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr)