IRCBrowse

2022/09/09

2022-09-09 00:01:20 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 00:01:31 +0200nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-09-09 00:01:53 +0200_xor(~xor@74.215.182.83) (Quit: bbiab)
2022-09-09 00:04:12 +0200Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea) (Quit: Leaving)
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2022-09-09 00:13:32 +0200mmhat(~mmh@p200300f1c728cc94ee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-09-09 00:14:38 +0200mastarija(~mastarija@95.168.107.13) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-09-09 00:17:35 +0200nbms^(~nbms@96-86-241-229-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 00:20:55 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
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2022-09-09 00:24:38 +0200Ranhir(~Ranhir@157.97.53.139) (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/)
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2022-09-09 00:30:41 +0200pieguy128(~pieguy128@bras-base-mtrlpq5031w-grc-37-70-24-250-46.dsl.bell.ca)
2022-09-09 00:30:53 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:213:7200:cc36:a556:b1e8:b340)
2022-09-09 00:37:08 +0200pieguy128(~pieguy128@bras-base-mtrlpq5031w-grc-37-70-24-250-46.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 00:41:12 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-09-09 00:48:25 +0200jinsun__(~jinsun@user/jinsun)
2022-09-09 00:48:25 +0200jinsun(~jinsun@user/jinsun) (Killed (molybdenum.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services)))
2022-09-09 00:48:25 +0200jinsun__jinsun
2022-09-09 00:57:07 +0200pieguy128(~pieguy128@bras-base-mtrlpq5031w-grc-37-70-24-250-153.dsl.bell.ca)
2022-09-09 00:57:18 +0200Successus(~Successus@user/Successus) ()
2022-09-09 01:00:29 +0200pieguy128_(~pieguy128@bras-base-mtrlpq5031w-grc-37-70-24-250-37.dsl.bell.ca)
2022-09-09 01:01:36 +0200pieguy128(~pieguy128@bras-base-mtrlpq5031w-grc-37-70-24-250-153.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-09-09 01:02:57 +0200Sylvo(~Sylvo@110-174-240-221.static.tpgi.com.au)
2022-09-09 01:04:00 +0200nbms^(~nbms@96-86-241-229-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 01:05:08 +0200arahael(~arahael@203.217.43.212)
2022-09-09 01:05:40 +0200jmorris(uid537181@id-537181.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2022-09-09 01:10:34 +0200 <darkling> ... of which it is a strict subset (IIRC)
2022-09-09 01:13:04 +0200jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2022-09-09 01:15:28 +0200 <geekosaur> the codepoints are, but the conversion is not
2022-09-09 01:15:36 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-09-09 01:17:52 +0200 <geekosaur> https://mincong.io/2019/04/07/understanding-iso-8859-1-and-utf-8/#character-mapping for example
2022-09-09 01:19:01 +0200 <darkling> Yeah, but strict ASCII is <127, so equivalent to Unicode and to 8859-1, in that range.
2022-09-09 01:22:11 +0200 <geekosaur> yes, but the whole reason I raised it is that many people use "ASCII" to include the range < 256
2022-09-09 01:22:24 +0200 <darkling> Bad and Wrong. :)
2022-09-09 01:22:24 +0200 <geekosaur> incorrectly, but you do need to watch out for that
2022-09-09 01:22:33 +0200pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-09-09 01:22:44 +0200 <geekosaur> assuming they're pedantic will get you corrupted data in that case
2022-09-09 01:24:39 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@ai071162.d.east.v6connect.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 01:25:20 +0200Midjak(~Midjak@82.66.147.146)
2022-09-09 01:26:31 +0200 <darkling> A few weeks ago, our team retrospective included the gem "darkling can read raw Unicode". Apparently this is a rare skill.
2022-09-09 01:26:50 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 01:26:57 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 01:28:29 +0200hippoid(~idris@c-98-220-13-8.hsd1.il.comcast.net) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-09-09 01:28:54 +0200 <darkling> I just thought it was a requirement.
2022-09-09 01:29:31 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@static-198-44-136-38.cust.tzulo.com)
2022-09-09 01:31:22 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2022-09-09 01:31:59 +0200 <monochrom> Next week, "darkling can actually write programs". >:)
2022-09-09 01:32:35 +0200 <darkling> Oh, I wouldn't go *that* far.
2022-09-09 01:33:30 +0200 <darkling> Although I had the "what's 2's complement?" moment two decades ago.
2022-09-09 01:35:03 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 01:35:45 +0200 <darkling> (Someone else's question, not mine)
2022-09-09 01:36:00 +0200jargon(~jargon@184.101.185.66)
2022-09-09 01:37:43 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 01:39:08 +0200 <hpc> heh, it's a good feeling having moments like that "can read raw unicode" thing
2022-09-09 01:39:23 +0200 <hpc> once i was explaining email to someone and just started casually writing out an smtp transaction over telnet
2022-09-09 01:39:41 +0200 <hpc> i go "and there you go" and the look on his face was amazing :D
2022-09-09 01:39:45 +0200mmhat(~mmh@p200300f1c728cc94ee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: WeeChat 3.6)
2022-09-09 01:40:10 +0200 <darkling> I'm starting to realise that I need to lean into the greybeard feeling these days.
2022-09-09 01:40:19 +0200mmhat(~mmh@p200300f1c728cc94ee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-09-09 01:40:45 +0200 <hpc> definitely
2022-09-09 01:40:51 +0200 <geekosaur> 🙂
2022-09-09 01:40:59 +0200 <darkling> It's npt even grey yet1
2022-09-09 01:41:03 +0200 <hpc> also make sure you learn a little bit of everything, and at the most fundamental level you can manage
2022-09-09 01:41:06 +0200 <darkling> It's not even grey yet!
2022-09-09 01:41:27 +0200 <hpc> i mainly do sysadmin, but had a bit of work that needed a bunch of async code
2022-09-09 01:41:32 +0200 <geekosaur> mine starts to gray when I'm stressed, then regains its color whne I recover
2022-09-09 01:41:36 +0200 <darkling> If you know the most fundamental levels, you can learn a little bit of everything. :)
2022-09-09 01:41:40 +0200 <geekosaur> I figure that means it won't be long
2022-09-09 01:41:41 +0200 <hpc> so i toss it over to a dev to make sure it's working right, he asks "i thought you were a sysadmin"
2022-09-09 01:41:48 +0200 <hpc> i say "ppppf, async is a monad, anyone can do it"
2022-09-09 01:42:13 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 01:42:14 +0200 <hpc> (this was in javascript)
2022-09-09 01:42:17 +0200 <darkling> "You can't do that, it's not a regular language!"
2022-09-09 01:42:36 +0200 <darkling> "Wait, what do you mean by 'regular language'?"
2022-09-09 01:42:54 +0200 <geekosaur> *eyeroll
2022-09-09 01:42:55 +0200 <darkling> Hold my beer...
2022-09-09 01:43:02 +0200 <hpc> then i got the argument order for join wrong in python, but i don't think that one was my fault
2022-09-09 01:43:15 +0200 <darkling> join in python is... odd?
2022-09-09 01:43:19 +0200 <geekosaur> python is wrong 🙂
2022-09-09 01:43:29 +0200 <hpc> ",".join(["word", "word", "word"])
2022-09-09 01:43:40 +0200 <darkling> *bits* of python are wrong.
2022-09-09 01:43:58 +0200 <hpc> bytes of python are wrong
2022-09-09 01:44:30 +0200 <darkling> I came over to the FP side when I realised that I'd written multiple Python programmes without classes, and that the functional way was the True Path. :)
2022-09-09 01:44:39 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 01:44:48 +0200Sylvo(~Sylvo@110-174-240-221.static.tpgi.com.au) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 01:45:05 +0200 <hpc> i like to tell people i learned haskell after realizing i was too stupid for python
2022-09-09 01:45:13 +0200 <hpc> the only other language that's ever made as much sense for me is perl
2022-09-09 01:45:20 +0200 <darkling> I came through Erlang on the way.
2022-09-09 01:45:28 +0200 <hpc> ah, that's a nice detour
2022-09-09 01:46:16 +0200 <monochrom> Dijkstra said that the reason you use algebra and let the symbols do the work is because your intuition is too stupid.
2022-09-09 01:46:35 +0200 <jackdk> hpc: I'm not smart enough to use anything but Haskell either
2022-09-09 01:48:04 +0200 <darkling> I had a pure maths lecturer who sometimes came down to: "OK, so we can't use the definitions... let's try to think a bit..."
2022-09-09 01:48:17 +0200 <darkling> I'm starting to realise, 30 years later, what he meant.
2022-09-09 01:48:21 +0200 <darkling> Bright lad. :)
2022-09-09 01:48:39 +0200 <monochrom> I believe a bit of that myself. I use statically typed FP because I am too stupid to use untyped OOP, unlike Alan Kay.
2022-09-09 01:48:56 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-09-09 01:49:24 +0200 <monochrom> Everything Alan Kay says about the benefits of his way requires a programmer as smart as him, otherwise it wouldn't work.
2022-09-09 01:51:00 +0200 <darkling> hpc: At the time, I was doing some things that looked like distributed systems, so Erlang was a good choice. Haskell and Lisp were the other options, but I've never found a Lisp tutorial I liked, and Haskell didn't fit with the CSP/Actor/multiprocess stuff going on in my life at the time.
2022-09-09 01:51:53 +0200 <darkling> I still need to spend a couple of years on Haskell to work out where I am, but it resonates. :)
2022-09-09 01:52:00 +0200 <hpc> yeah, i have found the best way to write lisp is like you're just writing haskell instead
2022-09-09 01:52:59 +0200 <darkling> (In other news, I had a slightly embarrasssing moment in the rum bar this evening, where I mis-heard "Haskell" as "Pascal")
2022-09-09 01:53:19 +0200 <hpc> i noticed after a few years of haskell that i got really good at noticing the patterns of things in other languages
2022-09-09 01:53:29 +0200 <hpc> like that async is a monad joke, but for real
2022-09-09 01:53:35 +0200 <darkling> ROFL
2022-09-09 01:53:45 +0200 <darkling> async is appalling.
2022-09-09 01:54:04 +0200 <hpc> it's fine
2022-09-09 01:54:32 +0200 <hpc> you just have to understand that it's baked into $language, and they don't have a generic facility for monads so they have to pick and choose the best ones for syntax
2022-09-09 01:54:42 +0200 <darkling> But yes, even with my minimal Haskell, I can kind of see where the theory is trying to unify things.
2022-09-09 01:54:48 +0200 <hpc> like rust's ? syntax
2022-09-09 01:55:53 +0200 <darkling> My approach so far is to write things as I see them from JS/Python/Erlang and then generalise to the algebras that are made explicit in Haskell.
2022-09-09 01:56:08 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 01:57:40 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:7fec:5b1f:15d9:87be)
2022-09-09 01:57:58 +0200 <darkling> (Where I can see them)
2022-09-09 01:58:27 +0200 <jackdk> I remain fascinated by Erlang, but have not had reason to dig into it. Alas.
2022-09-09 01:58:34 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2022-09-09 01:58:37 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 01:58:51 +0200 <darkling> The CSP/Actor thing is quite attractive.
2022-09-09 01:59:03 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2022-09-09 01:59:21 +0200 <darkling> I'm glad I found it before Haskell.
2022-09-09 01:59:52 +0200 <darkling> As I see it, there's a profound thread of pragmatism running through Erlang,
2022-09-09 02:00:06 +0200 <jackdk> The original Armstrong thesis is a goldmine
2022-09-09 02:00:21 +0200 <darkling> compared to the elegant theoretical viewpoint of Haskell.
2022-09-09 02:00:56 +0200 <darkling> Both are valuable, but (personally) if I'd hit Haskell first, I'd have lost the pragmatism.
2022-09-09 02:01:03 +0200 <hpc> darkling: have you ever tried perl?
2022-09-09 02:01:37 +0200 <darkling> I was a maintainer of a 140kloc MMORPG written in perl, about 15 years ago. :)/
2022-09-09 02:01:46 +0200 <hpc> nice
2022-09-09 02:02:07 +0200 <hpc> every language should pick a thing to do as well as perl does strings
2022-09-09 02:02:30 +0200 <darkling> My Haskell goal is to write the successor to that. :)
2022-09-09 02:04:36 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:213:7200:cc36:a556:b1e8:b340) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-09-09 02:04:47 +0200 <darkling> Aaah, /feurque/, I need to check out of this hotel in 10 hours. Ta-ta, one and all.
2022-09-09 02:04:56 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv)
2022-09-09 02:05:25 +0200 <jackdk> darkling: Awesome on many levels. However, I just went "15 years ago? So, like, a MUD?" and now I'm going to sulk about how old I am.
2022-09-09 02:05:40 +0200 <geekosaur> heh
2022-09-09 02:05:59 +0200mmhat(~mmh@p200300f1c728cc94ee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: WeeChat 3.6)
2022-09-09 02:06:24 +0200 <hpc> jackdk: !! i did the same thing
2022-09-09 02:06:30 +0200sammelweis(~quassel@c-68-48-18-140.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 02:06:55 +0200 <hpc> 15 years ago, wow was already old
2022-09-09 02:06:57 +0200 <darkling> jackdk: Web-based. It's still occasionally up.
2022-09-09 02:07:41 +0200 <jackdk> I remember not seeing my friends for months when WoW first came out, because they all got on and I didn't.
2022-09-09 02:07:42 +0200 <darkling> ... although not right now, apparently. I should talk to Andy more often.
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2022-09-09 03:51:01 +0200drlkf(~drlkf@chat.drlkf.net) (Quit: drlkf)
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2022-09-09 03:52:00 +0200bgamari(~bgamari@64.223.132.120) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-09-09 03:52:02 +0200 <Clinton[m]> is there a `readEither` function for `Text`, that dispatches like `Read` based on target class? I know I can go though `String` but breaking something into a linked list of characters first seems rather round about way of doing things.
2022-09-09 03:52:04 +0200Teacup_(~teacup@user/teacup) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2022-09-09 03:52:20 +0200 <Clinton[m]> s/round/roundabout/, s/about//
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2022-09-09 03:55:19 +0200OpenSource(~kernel@user/OpenSource)
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2022-09-09 03:57:36 +0200nij-(~jin@2600:1700:5ac0:8520:31cf:b7a1:e61b:d7d7)
2022-09-09 03:58:21 +0200 <nij-> In FP, theoretically, we only care about compositions of functions. Something like
2022-09-09 03:58:28 +0200 <nij-> f5(f4(f3(f2(f1(f0(x))))))
2022-09-09 03:58:41 +0200 <nij-> However, what if each fi takes a LONG time to compute?
2022-09-09 03:58:56 +0200 <nij-> Even if it's a pure function, I cannot help but saving its result somewhere and then proceed.
2022-09-09 04:01:14 +0200 <pavonia> Are you talking about saving results to disk and continue evaluation at a later time?
2022-09-09 04:01:59 +0200 <nij-> Or to memory with a name (e.g. variable or memoized function)
2022-09-09 04:02:43 +0200fr33domlover[m](~fr33domlo@2001:470:69fc:105::1:3bb6)
2022-09-09 04:03:35 +0200 <drlkf> Clinton[m]: the Read typeclass is purely based on String so i doubt you can avoid going through this type
2022-09-09 04:05:05 +0200 <pavonia> nij-: What problems do you see with splitting long expression into smaller pieces using variables? It doesn't introduce side effects or so
2022-09-09 04:05:29 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 04:06:12 +0200 <nij-> It doesn't count as side effects if I store the value in a variable that is later callable by some other functions?
2022-09-09 04:06:59 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2022-09-09 04:07:38 +0200root4(~root@ec2-107-22-56-196.compute-1.amazonaws.com)
2022-09-09 04:07:51 +0200 <pavonia> No
2022-09-09 04:08:39 +0200 <pavonia> The point is, function will not be able to alter the value of that variable
2022-09-09 04:10:44 +0200root4hippoid
2022-09-09 04:14:12 +0200sjanssen(~sjanssenm@2001:470:69fc:105::1:61d8)
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2022-09-09 04:18:12 +0200vaibhavsagar[m](~vaibhavsa@2001:470:69fc:105::ffe)
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2022-09-09 04:21:16 +0200 <qrpnxz> do you guys know of any situation where it's ever advantagous to implement `mapM` directly? Any example instance?
2022-09-09 04:21:41 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
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2022-09-09 05:05:32 +0200TravisAthougies[(~tathougie@2001:470:69fc:105::2:6fbd)
2022-09-09 05:11:21 +0200 <dolio> qrpnxz: It's sometimes possible to use less stack in mapM. However, it's questionable how much that matters.
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2022-09-09 05:19:03 +0200 <pareto-optimal-d> Why does my conduit only return one item in the list? `runConduit $ sequenceSources [ yieldMany [ Left ()], yieldMany [ Right "a", Right "b" ]] .| concat .| (awaitForever $ \x -> case x of Left () -> liftIO (putStrLn "hi"); Right _ -> yield x) .| printC`
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2022-09-09 05:31:23 +0200the-coot[m](~the-cootm@2001:470:69fc:105::95f)
2022-09-09 05:31:25 +0200 <pareto-optimal-d> <pareto-optimal-d> "Why does my conduit only..." <- context: https://github.com/domdere/cassava-conduit/issues/30
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2022-09-09 05:48:13 +0200 <johnjaye> what is a "top-level declaration" in haskell
2022-09-09 05:48:16 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3ad-40.dhcp.inet.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-09-09 05:48:57 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3ad-40.dhcp.inet.fi)
2022-09-09 05:49:57 +0200 <monochrom> Like when your declaration is not nested inside an outer one.
2022-09-09 05:50:43 +0200 <johnjaye> ok. i was writing hello world and i noticed if i did 'main putStrLn "hello world"' i got that error
2022-09-09 05:51:02 +0200 <johnjaye> so it seems to be a general error
2022-09-09 05:51:28 +0200 <johnjaye> i.e. expected import, module header, or top-level declaration
2022-09-09 05:52:20 +0200 <dolio> If you typed in exactly what you quoted, it's missing an =
2022-09-09 05:52:43 +0200 <johnjaye> right. i'm more trying to figure out what the error messages mean. since i read they are very specific in haskell
2022-09-09 05:53:03 +0200 <johnjaye> is every haskell program expected to be imports followed by declarations?
2022-09-09 05:53:19 +0200 <monochrom> For hello world there needs no import.
2022-09-09 05:53:39 +0200 <johnjaye> ok. but the main = ... part is a declaration, right
2022-09-09 05:53:45 +0200 <monochrom> Yes.
2022-09-09 05:53:54 +0200 <johnjaye> are all haskell programs declarations
2022-09-09 05:54:38 +0200 <monochrom> Not sure where we're going with this, but sure.
2022-09-09 05:56:13 +0200 <johnjaye> ok.
2022-09-09 05:56:46 +0200 <johnjaye> nowhere lol. i'm deleting characters from hello world and seeing what the error messages are
2022-09-09 05:56:57 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 05:57:08 +0200 <johnjaye> right now when i mispell putStrLn it reports this as a wrong variable, not a wrong function. interesting
2022-09-09 05:58:52 +0200jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon)
2022-09-09 05:59:06 +0200 <johnjaye> the white space handling is also pretty amazing
2022-09-09 05:59:21 +0200 <johnjaye> i can write putStrLn"hello world" and ghc accepts that just fine
2022-09-09 05:59:55 +0200 <dolio> The Haskell Report is even more amazing, unless it's been fixed.
2022-09-09 06:01:10 +0200 <dolio> There are certain examples where it's specified to technically split up a word.
2022-09-09 06:02:00 +0200 <johnjaye> is that the official language spec from 98
2022-09-09 06:02:06 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 06:02:34 +0200 <dolio> Something like `let impor x y = x + y ; t = 5 in import 4` evaluates to 9.
2022-09-09 06:03:00 +0200 <dolio> Yeah.
2022-09-09 06:03:18 +0200 <johnjaye> meaning import gets recognized? @_@
2022-09-09 06:03:52 +0200 <dolio> import is a reserved word, so that would be illegal, and it's possible to read the report as saying that it should instead tokenize as `impor t 4`.
2022-09-09 06:04:10 +0200 <dolio> GHC doesn't implement that, though, because it's ridiculous.
2022-09-09 06:04:17 +0200 <johnjaye> i see
2022-09-09 06:04:34 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net)
2022-09-09 06:04:44 +0200 <johnjaye> i guess i can't take this thought experiment much farther
2022-09-09 06:04:59 +0200 <johnjaye> because if i random *add* characters instead of deleting them i would get the same types of error
2022-09-09 06:05:18 +0200 <johnjaye> e.g. complaining there's no main if instead it's amain or bmain
2022-09-09 06:06:47 +0200 <dolio> It's possible to tell the compiler to look for another name.
2022-09-09 06:07:03 +0200 <johnjaye> oh ok
2022-09-09 06:07:22 +0200 <johnjaye> i guess in general though when i think of typical syntax errors you'd make in a program, usually it's omitting a character
2022-09-09 06:07:25 +0200 <johnjaye> like a missing " or ;
2022-09-09 06:07:39 +0200 <johnjaye> or like mispelling a name
2022-09-09 06:08:51 +0200 <johnjaye> well at least i got to see a few types of errors
2022-09-09 06:09:08 +0200 <johnjaye> whenever i learn a new language i always try to make simple syntax errors just to get a rough idea of the compiler-speak
2022-09-09 06:09:37 +0200siraben(~siraben@user/siraben)
2022-09-09 06:09:38 +0200 <johnjaye> e.g. omitting the last " gives an error about a lexical error in a string/character literal
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2022-09-09 07:37:43 +0200OpenSourceUNIX
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2022-09-09 07:49:29 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 07:54:49 +0200jpds1(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds)
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2022-09-09 08:04:31 +0200 <dminuoso> pareto-optimal-d: Check the documentation on https://hackage.haskell.org/package/conduit-1.3.4.2/docs/Data-Conduit.html#v:sequenceSources
2022-09-09 08:05:15 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2022-09-09 08:05:48 +0200 <dminuoso> pareto-optimal-d: You might have meant sequence_ rather.
2022-09-09 08:07:36 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
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2022-09-09 08:28:23 +0200drlkf(~drlkf@chat.drlkf.net)
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2022-09-09 08:41:45 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 08:44:41 +0200 <dminuoso> I want to write a very tight loop with an unboxed counter. `f :: Int# -> Int#`, what's the right way to test whether the argument has reached a given size?
2022-09-09 08:46:44 +0200 <dminuoso> Something like `f x | x <# l = ...` does not work because <# produces an Int# rather than a Bool
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2022-09-09 08:54:13 +0200 <dolio> You can do `f x | 1# <- x <# l = ...`
2022-09-09 08:55:51 +0200andreabedini(~andreabed@host-87-18-207-240.retail.telecomitalia.it)
2022-09-09 08:55:56 +0200 <dolio> Writing things like this is not really necessary, though.
2022-09-09 08:57:50 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
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2022-09-09 09:20:39 +0200ccntrq(~Thunderbi@exit-1.office.han.de.mhd.medondo.com)
2022-09-09 09:22:50 +0200twb(~twb@203.7.155.73)
2022-09-09 09:23:24 +0200ccntrq1(~Thunderbi@exit-3.office.han.de.mhd.medondo.com)
2022-09-09 09:23:44 +0200 <twb> This might be too OT, but... I'm trying to find where in the _login HTML is in https://github.com/jgm/gitit
2022-09-09 09:24:02 +0200 <twb> I want to change <input type=password> to <input type=hidden value=fake-password1234>
2022-09-09 09:24:27 +0200 <dminuoso> dolio: Ah I think I figured out the official GHC way: tagToEnum# (and specialized ifTrue#)
2022-09-09 09:24:42 +0200 <dminuoso> so something like `f x | ifTrue# (x <# l) = ...`
2022-09-09 09:25:01 +0200ccntrq(~Thunderbi@exit-1.office.han.de.mhd.medondo.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 09:25:01 +0200ccntrq1ccntrq
2022-09-09 09:26:02 +0200billykv(~billy@86.99.96.142)
2022-09-09 09:26:23 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 09:27:11 +0200 <twb> I think it's this bit? https://github.com/jgm/gitit/blob/e27bd3ff684d8e864f2b04d22bbfc1810ec74967/src/Network/Gitit/Authe…
2022-09-09 09:27:44 +0200billykv(~billy@86.99.96.142) (Quit: leaving)
2022-09-09 09:28:12 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2022-09-09 09:28:30 +0200 <[exa]> twb: looks like it, yes
2022-09-09 09:29:18 +0200 <twb> Thanks
2022-09-09 09:29:33 +0200billy_(~billy@86.99.96.142)
2022-09-09 09:29:35 +0200 <twb> Most of the rest is done via templates, but this one... apparently needs the .hs to be recompiled :/
2022-09-09 09:29:47 +0200 <[exa]> like, the easiest way is to change it a bit and check in a browser if it changed the right part :D
2022-09-09 09:29:50 +0200billy_(~billy@86.99.96.142) (Client Quit)
2022-09-09 09:30:26 +0200 <twb> Yeah I didn't feel like sitting through a full ghc :-)
2022-09-09 09:30:30 +0200 <[exa]> login code might be a bit too critical to be offloaded to templates (and borked by users)
2022-09-09 09:30:43 +0200 <twb> [exa]: indeed - I suspect exactly that
2022-09-09 09:30:45 +0200 <[exa]> shouldn't be that long imo
2022-09-09 09:30:48 +0200frost(~frost@user/frost)
2022-09-09 09:31:24 +0200 <twb> well gitit sits on top of pandoc which has to download all these "kate" syntax highlighting templates which -- last time -- took like 1GB of space
2022-09-09 09:31:34 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c9571091002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-09-09 09:31:46 +0200 <[exa]> ah pandoc, yes, okay.
2022-09-09 09:31:49 +0200 <twb> I haven't done haskell since the Standard Platform was invented so maybe it is different no w:-)
2022-09-09 09:32:02 +0200billy_(~billy@86.99.96.142)
2022-09-09 09:32:04 +0200billy_(~billy@86.99.96.142) (Client Quit)
2022-09-09 09:32:08 +0200 <twb> I think you can opt-out of kate with cabal use flags
2022-09-09 09:32:15 +0200 <twb> Aaaanyway
2022-09-09 09:32:16 +0200son0p(~ff@181.136.122.143)
2022-09-09 09:32:17 +0200 <[exa]> I thought they invested into making pandoc a bit more sane, yes
2022-09-09 09:34:50 +0200billykv(~billykv@86.99.96.142)
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2022-09-09 10:21:14 +0200pie_(~pie_bnc@user/pie/x-2818909) ()
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2022-09-09 10:44:50 +0200 <dminuoso> Mmm, unboxed gives me more headache that this might really be worth it.
2022-09-09 10:45:05 +0200 <dminuoso> Is there a way to specify Word8# literals?
2022-09-09 10:45:23 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
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2022-09-09 11:22:26 +0200shriekingnoise(~shrieking@186.137.167.202) (Quit: Quit)
2022-09-09 11:23:19 +0200 <AndreasK> I don't think so.
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2022-09-09 12:54:24 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 12:56:33 +0200 <nshepperd2> dminuoso: wasn't edwardk doing stuff with this
2022-09-09 12:56:41 +0200 <nshepperd2> like https://github.com/ekmett/unboxed
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2022-09-09 13:18:37 +0200 <dminuoso> Interesting, I did not realize Num was polykinded
2022-09-09 13:18:41 +0200 <dminuoso> % :k Num
2022-09-09 13:18:41 +0200 <yahb2> Num :: * -> Constraint
2022-09-09 13:18:47 +0200 <dminuoso> Mmm, looks mono-kinded to me
2022-09-09 13:19:29 +0200 <twb> [exa]: FYI here is how I did it: https://github.com/trentbuck/gitit-bootstrap-theme/blob/debian/v0.1.0/debian/patches/cyber-disable…
2022-09-09 13:19:42 +0200 <twb> It is Good EnoughTM for government work
2022-09-09 13:19:49 +0200 <dminuoso> nshepperd2: but yeah interesting to look at thanks. Im not *that* desperate to warrant this package though.
2022-09-09 13:25:20 +0200`2jt(~jtomas@86.red-88-17-188.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 13:25:42 +0200`2jt(~jtomas@86.red-88-17-188.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
2022-09-09 13:25:55 +0200twb(~twb@203.7.155.73) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 13:27:18 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-09-09 13:29:25 +0200lyle(~lyle@104.246.145.85)
2022-09-09 13:32:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: https://github.com/ekmett/unboxed/blob/main/internal/Unboxed/Internal/Class.hs#L147
2022-09-09 13:32:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> he redefined Num
2022-09-09 13:32:31 +0200 <dminuoso> Ah okay that makes sense now
2022-09-09 13:33:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> see also the juicy kind specialisation of the class directly below
2022-09-09 13:33:15 +0200 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: By the way, my unboxed experience is growing: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/KCDL07fq
2022-09-09 13:33:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> not enough #
2022-09-09 13:33:33 +0200 <dminuoso> There *was* a lot more before.
2022-09-09 13:35:03 +0200 <dminuoso> Im not entirely sure whether the construction of the Builder via nested function application is such a smart thing
2022-09-09 13:35:08 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 13:35:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: you have this to live up to https://github.com/tmcdonell/lockfree-array-queue/blob/master/src/Data/Concurrent/Queue/Array/FAA.hs
2022-09-09 13:36:00 +0200 <dminuoso> reallyUnsafePtrEquality#
2022-09-09 13:36:06 +0200 <dminuoso> Neat name
2022-09-09 13:37:24 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-09-09 13:37:55 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 13:38:49 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-09-09 13:41:08 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 13:41:34 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 13:42:00 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-09-09 13:42:50 +0200superbil(~superbil@1-34-176-171.hinet-ip.hinet.net)
2022-09-09 13:44:09 +0200jmdaemon(~jmdaemon@user/jmdaemon) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-09-09 13:45:27 +0200 <int-e> well, it is unsafe. really.
2022-09-09 13:45:47 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-09-09 13:46:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> I figured
2022-09-09 13:46:17 +0200 <int-e> mostlyHarmlessPtrEquality, but that reference may be lost on younger people :P
2022-09-09 13:46:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> as in, earthly pointer equality?
2022-09-09 13:47:01 +0200 <tomsmeding> I actually have that book
2022-09-09 13:47:07 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv)
2022-09-09 13:47:11 +0200 <int-e> That's a bit too far.
2022-09-09 13:47:15 +0200 <int-e> But yes.
2022-09-09 13:48:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> the novel, that is, not the encyclopedia
2022-09-09 13:48:27 +0200superbil(~superbil@1-34-176-171.hinet-ip.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-09-09 13:48:40 +0200 <int-e> There's an encyclopedia? Hmm. I guess there was, but I never was interested.
2022-09-09 13:49:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> I mean that the phrase in question was from the encyclopedia galactica, or what was it called, right?
2022-09-09 13:49:37 +0200 <int-e> Yes.
2022-09-09 13:49:39 +0200 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: The book? I have the 5-part trilogy as a leather-bound volume with gold edge.
2022-09-09 13:49:43 +0200 <int-e> But I didn't follow :)
2022-09-09 13:50:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> 5-part trilogy?
2022-09-09 13:50:12 +0200 <dminuoso> Yes. A trilogy in five parts.
2022-09-09 13:50:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> sounds fishy
2022-09-09 13:51:05 +0200jinsun(~jinsun@user/jinsun) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-09-09 13:51:05 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c9571091002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-09-09 13:51:20 +0200jinsun(~jinsun@user/jinsun)
2022-09-09 13:53:19 +0200superbil(~superbil@1-34-176-171.hinet-ip.hinet.net)
2022-09-09 13:55:23 +0200jinsun(~jinsun@user/jinsun) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-09-09 13:55:35 +0200akegalj_(~akegalj@93-139-146-68.adsl.net.t-com.hr) (Quit: leaving)
2022-09-09 13:55:40 +0200jinsun(~jinsun@user/jinsun)
2022-09-09 13:57:27 +0200 <dminuoso> I wonder, why doesnt StateT use unboxed tuples?
2022-09-09 13:58:10 +0200 <Hecate> dminuoso: I sent an email to Ross about the space leaks of State
2022-09-09 13:58:15 +0200 <Hecate> never got an answer
2022-09-09 13:58:43 +0200 <Franciman> are the space leak due to laziness misusage?
2022-09-09 13:58:53 +0200 <Franciman> or because of some logic bug?
2022-09-09 14:00:48 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-09-09 14:02:14 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 14:04:12 +0200 <Hecate> Franciman: laziness mis-use IIRC
2022-09-09 14:04:32 +0200 <Hecate> Franciman: https://github.com/haskell-effectful/effectful/blob/master/transformers.md#controlmonadtranswriter…
2022-09-09 14:04:35 +0200 <Franciman> thanks
2022-09-09 14:04:39 +0200 <Franciman> yes that happens quite a lot
2022-09-09 14:04:51 +0200tcard(~tcard@p945242-ipngn9701hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-09-09 14:05:07 +0200nschoe(~quassel@178.251.84.79) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-09-09 14:08:39 +0200 <AndreasK> dminuoso: GHCi used to not support unboxed tuples for example. So probably compability concerns with ghci and other compilers
2022-09-09 14:08:56 +0200coot(~coot@213.134.176.158) (Quit: coot)
2022-09-09 14:10:51 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:1004:c2ae:c6b3:b9c2:8d75)
2022-09-09 14:11:08 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:1004:c2ae:c6b3:b9c2:8d75) (Client Quit)
2022-09-09 14:14:27 +0200Midjak(~Midjak@82.66.147.146)
2022-09-09 14:15:25 +0200toeffel(~toeffel@user/toeffel) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 14:17:20 +0200twb(~twb@159-196-230-25.9fc4e6.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net)
2022-09-09 14:17:51 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-09-09 14:19:19 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2022-09-09 14:20:34 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:7afb:e146:b361:288c)
2022-09-09 14:21:31 +0200alternateved(~user@staticline-31-183-146-203.toya.net.pl)
2022-09-09 14:22:33 +0200yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@162.96-78-194.adsl-static.isp.belgacom.be)
2022-09-09 14:23:50 +0200Successus(~Successus@user/Successus)
2022-09-09 14:25:38 +0200toeffel(~toeffel@user/toeffel)
2022-09-09 14:26:41 +0200 <dminuoso> Ah I think I see a technical problem. `class Monad m` wouldn't allow for it as long as PolyKinds is disabled on that module.
2022-09-09 14:26:41 +0200nschoe(~quassel@178.251.84.79)
2022-09-09 14:26:56 +0200 <dminuoso> Otherwise you couldn't write `instance Monad (StateT# m s)`
2022-09-09 14:27:06 +0200 <dminuoso> I guess an unboxed non-transformer version could exist
2022-09-09 14:27:45 +0200ShalokShalom(~ShalokSha@mobiledyn-62-240-134-78.mrsn.at)
2022-09-09 14:35:13 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@145.224.94.248) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 14:35:39 +0200Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea)
2022-09-09 14:44:06 +0200ShalokShalom(~ShalokSha@mobiledyn-62-240-134-78.mrsn.at) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-09-09 14:47:08 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 14:49:26 +0200riverside(~guyst@213.205.241.185)
2022-09-09 14:49:44 +0200 <riverside> hi, i have quite a difficult function, im not sure how to define
2022-09-09 14:49:55 +0200 <riverside> i have a type lengthed list i want to spllit over an arbitrary tuple
2022-09-09 14:50:26 +0200 <riverside> i have implementations of take and chunksOf at type level
2022-09-09 14:50:40 +0200 <riverside> but im not sure how to perform the recursion for the arbitrary tuple
2022-09-09 14:51:15 +0200 <riverside> ill put together the code i have, hang on
2022-09-09 14:51:47 +0200ccntrq(~Thunderbi@exit-3.office.han.de.mhd.medondo.com) (Quit: ccntrq)
2022-09-09 14:52:12 +0200jonathanx_(~jonathan@h-178-174-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se)
2022-09-09 14:52:27 +0200jonathanx(~jonathan@h-178-174-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 14:52:30 +0200 <riverside> fwiw the reason for it is because if i combine two functions that require list params
2022-09-09 14:52:36 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-09-09 14:52:51 +0200 <riverside> then i need to be able to a tuple to patten match on
2022-09-09 14:53:22 +0200 <riverside> so if i want all composite nets to take their params from a list, then i should first be able to tuple it
2022-09-09 14:53:42 +0200 <riverside> the good thing is that type inference should allow the destination type to completely specify the computation
2022-09-09 14:53:55 +0200 <riverside> the lengths in all the tuple positions
2022-09-09 14:54:01 +0200twb(~twb@159-196-230-25.9fc4e6.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Killed buffer)
2022-09-09 14:54:19 +0200 <riverside> im not sure if i should use a tree instead
2022-09-09 14:54:36 +0200 <riverside> probably save having to write different instances for 3 tuples for example
2022-09-09 14:54:58 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-09-09 14:54:59 +0200 <riverside> or at least i should provide the insteances for pairs
2022-09-09 14:55:22 +0200 <riverside> sorry, i think i answered my own question by understanding the difficulty i was having conceptually was that there are many tuples
2022-09-09 14:56:25 +0200 <riverside> basically, because of type lengthing, i can match on a lengthed list as if it were a tuple, knowing exactly how many elements it has
2022-09-09 14:56:42 +0200merijndr_merijn
2022-09-09 14:57:06 +0200yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@162.96-78-194.adsl-static.isp.belgacom.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 14:57:39 +0200 <riverside> youd think that would be a kind of standard function
2022-09-09 14:58:01 +0200 <riverside> its the inverse of tree catenation
2022-09-09 14:58:27 +0200 <riverside> it exists with the lengthed list while it does not for the regular list
2022-09-09 14:59:04 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 3.6)
2022-09-09 14:59:51 +0200 <riverside> now im stuck because basically i need to unfold a tree, something a lack of type lengthing has never enabled
2022-09-09 15:00:11 +0200 <riverside> i know i could traverse over it easily enough, and use the elngths encountered
2022-09-09 15:00:35 +0200 <riverside> maybe better to do that at value level than to grapple with the full beast
2022-09-09 15:01:29 +0200 <riverside> so i can generate a tree... er, or i need to fold from the right
2022-09-09 15:02:21 +0200 <riverside> do i have to initialize a null tree and then map elements into it? i cant figure out how to unfold it
2022-09-09 15:03:20 +0200 <riverside> i guess however i would end up implementing the "make a tree full of null leafs" would have the esesence of the recursion
2022-09-09 15:03:35 +0200luffy(~chenqisu1@183.217.201.192) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:04:05 +0200 <riverside> kind of annoyed at having to use the traversable instance of type lengthed tree though
2022-09-09 15:04:17 +0200 <riverside> means having to actually use the proper default machinery
2022-09-09 15:05:08 +0200 <riverside> SO, asside from just rambling, i could ask at that point about making a library
2022-09-09 15:05:14 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 15:05:20 +0200 <riverside> since is shows me at least that it would need both value and type level
2022-09-09 15:05:36 +0200jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net)
2022-09-09 15:06:10 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:06:23 +0200 <riverside> a few years back a couple of us tried various abstractions to express it
2022-09-09 15:07:17 +0200 <riverside> recently, since i started working with length typing more, i realised fold and unfold are a special case of scanner
2022-09-09 15:07:31 +0200 <riverside> with null outputs or null inputs respectively
2022-09-09 15:07:55 +0200 <riverside> this unifies 3 lower order derived functions
2022-09-09 15:08:25 +0200 <riverside> modulo handling some null lists
2022-09-09 15:08:26 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-09-09 15:09:12 +0200 <riverside> particularly, having fold and unfold be basically the same except with different null list placements
2022-09-09 15:09:23 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7137a5075b6a377115cf07f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:09:23 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7137a5075b6a377115cf07f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:09:57 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.240.50.185)
2022-09-09 15:10:05 +0200 <riverside> i guess then even map, which is slightly different by having a null basecase
2022-09-09 15:10:22 +0200 <riverside> but yeah, having scanners as this central object
2022-09-09 15:10:30 +0200 <riverside> that then sections into fold unfold and map
2022-09-09 15:10:57 +0200 <riverside> so im mentioning because it really simplifies a previous attempt at an implementation/expression of the seti formalism
2022-09-09 15:11:14 +0200 <riverside> since it used code duplication (the part we were having difficulty abstracting away)
2022-09-09 15:12:49 +0200 <riverside> basically, its not apparent until you start working with lengthed lists where the empty list can represent null, distinguishable at type level (unlike list)
2022-09-09 15:13:18 +0200 <riverside> that shows all these inputs *are* of the same datatype
2022-09-09 15:13:52 +0200 <riverside> that nul inputs for sectioning scanners into maps folds and unfolds can simply be handled as lists, when they are type lengthed
2022-09-09 15:14:26 +0200 <riverside> then, you *can* follow the same design pattern at value level, since the zero vectors are no more difficult to produce or match on
2022-09-09 15:14:33 +0200alternateved(~user@staticline-31-183-146-203.toya.net.pl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 15:14:43 +0200 <riverside> only, then we cant say at type level that one of the input lists *has* to be empty the whole time
2022-09-09 15:15:29 +0200 <riverside> essentially making map fold and unfold simply basecases! matching on the empty list.. well not actually basecase since they are never reached under recursion
2022-09-09 15:16:17 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@91.240.50.185) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:16:18 +0200 <riverside> and you cant specify the null output of fold by patten matching (empty) lists on inputs
2022-09-09 15:16:24 +0200 <riverside> as*
2022-09-09 15:17:15 +0200 <riverside> if we follow the lengthed list approach, the result at value level is something id have never have thought of
2022-09-09 15:17:49 +0200 <riverside> and it solves a "cannonical formalism" debate which was, i dont think ever really "raging" in the haskell community
2022-09-09 15:17:57 +0200 <riverside> but certainly took a lot of my time
2022-09-09 15:18:03 +0200razetime(~quassel@117.254.34.220) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:18:44 +0200 <riverside> a result valuble enough so i guess i dont actually have to finish my code, and can just go back to sleep and continue being poor forever!
2022-09-09 15:18:57 +0200razetime(~quassel@117.193.3.234)
2022-09-09 15:21:19 +0200nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-09-09 15:21:20 +0200 <riverside> also! very nicely, it also gives us a strange form of argument length polymorphicity, but then you have to start using typed and not just lengthed lists -*if* you want argument type hetrogenity
2022-09-09 15:22:34 +0200 <riverside> however, in my application, everything encountered is a list of doubles, as the "argument length polymorphic" functions are nets
2022-09-09 15:23:21 +0200jonathanx(~jonathan@h-178-174-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se)
2022-09-09 15:23:25 +0200 <riverside> not requiering type hetroginaity and allowing for simple lengthd lists to be used
2022-09-09 15:23:35 +0200 <riverside> i guess thats lucky
2022-09-09 15:24:14 +0200 <riverside> but the point is the proper "concequential formalism" actually results from a consideration of the hetrogenus version
2022-09-09 15:24:33 +0200andreabedini(~andreabed@host-87-18-207-240.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Quit: WeeChat 3.6)
2022-09-09 15:24:43 +0200Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-09-09 15:24:57 +0200 <riverside> ie, map fold and unfold as sections of scanner by input argument number
2022-09-09 15:25:35 +0200 <riverside> and it wouldnt have been obvious you would need any number of arguments, since the types are scary!
2022-09-09 15:25:51 +0200 <riverside> so i guess i had to come at this from ML
2022-09-09 15:26:11 +0200nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:26:13 +0200 <riverside> makes me wonder if anything im *actually* doing is *actually worth doing*... damn rabithole
2022-09-09 15:26:39 +0200 <riverside> (worth it for me at least ...)
2022-09-09 15:26:59 +0200jonathanx_(~jonathan@h-178-174-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:27:28 +0200 <riverside> can someone else at least write it up for me
2022-09-09 15:28:31 +0200zxx7529(~Thunderbi@user/zxx7529) (Quit: zxx7529)
2022-09-09 15:31:46 +0200 <riverside> having a dialect of haskell where you dont use whitespace to seperate arguments, but are forced to supply them in lists would shortcut this "rediscovery" process
2022-09-09 15:32:11 +0200 <riverside> which is a weird but perhaps awesome motivation for a language feature
2022-09-09 15:32:14 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7137a5075b6a377115cf07f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-09-09 15:32:14 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d6e7137a5075b6a377115cf07f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-09-09 15:32:28 +0200 <riverside> that it unifies map fold unfold and scanner
2022-09-09 15:33:18 +0200adanwan_(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2022-09-09 15:33:20 +0200 <riverside> also then probably forching the language to properly contend with the representation of type polymorphic lists as a language aspect
2022-09-09 15:33:38 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan) (Quit: _)
2022-09-09 15:34:36 +0200 <riverside> and as its an "other than that, keep everything else the same" kind of thing, its not a bad language! just parses differently to haskell
2022-09-09 15:34:43 +0200 <riverside> very easy to compile to haskell
2022-09-09 15:35:41 +0200 <riverside> thought it could also work the other way round
2022-09-09 15:35:59 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 15:36:00 +0200adanwan_(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan) (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-09-09 15:36:02 +0200 <riverside> weird cross expression of compilers at a duality on ommiting whitespace!
2022-09-09 15:36:27 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 15:36:35 +0200dr_merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:36:40 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2022-09-09 15:36:53 +0200 <riverside> probably users wouldnt like the "all your arguments have to go in one list!" style, but if it makes this central connction more succincly expressible then it might work as an intermediate language in compilation
2022-09-09 15:37:02 +0200 <riverside> thought for that pupose its pretty terrible
2022-09-09 15:37:28 +0200 <riverside> unless all the rest of it used these kind of core higher order functions enough to make it worth it
2022-09-09 15:38:48 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-09-09 15:39:01 +0200 <riverside> basically then the comment is "if your making a core language, consider argument bunching, since it unifies streaming, and provides a set of higher order functions useful from within the rest of the (possibly not turing complete) intermediate language"
2022-09-09 15:39:45 +0200 <riverside> "do you enjoy what you do?"
2022-09-09 15:40:46 +0200 <riverside> which part of lisp didnt you understand! we need lisps god damnit!!
2022-09-09 15:41:49 +0200 <riverside> tldr "can we have argument lists please"
2022-09-09 15:42:22 +0200 <riverside> they say "no, youd have spent the whole time trying to map over them"
2022-09-09 15:42:26 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:43:08 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck)
2022-09-09 15:43:10 +0200 <riverside> and then they say something quite strange about needing pointers into them, and this causing speech defects
2022-09-09 15:43:10 +0200ChanServ+o geekosaur
2022-09-09 15:43:15 +0200 <riverside> bye!
2022-09-09 15:43:17 +0200 <geekosaur> that's enough
2022-09-09 15:43:28 +0200fhn(~fhn@p200300ef971835a3e1b13651e3e353a6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:45:21 +0200Colere(~colere@about/linux/staff/sauvin) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:46:19 +0200odnes(~odnes@5-203-254-246.pat.nym.cosmote.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-09-09 15:46:32 +0200odnes(~odnes@5-203-254-246.pat.nym.cosmote.net)
2022-09-09 15:47:08 +0200frost(~frost@user/frost) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:48:00 +0200`2jt(~jtomas@86.red-88-17-188.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:48:21 +0200 <riverside> is it possible to write uncurryN using type annotated lists?
2022-09-09 15:48:44 +0200Colere(~colere@about/linux/staff/sauvin)
2022-09-09 15:49:20 +0200`2jt(~jtomas@86.red-88-17-188.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
2022-09-09 15:50:11 +0200Furor(~colere@about/linux/staff/sauvin)
2022-09-09 15:51:39 +0200 <riverside> id call it STAMA "haskell uncurried"
2022-09-09 15:51:50 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-09-09 15:54:08 +0200Colere(~colere@about/linux/staff/sauvin) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-09-09 15:57:16 +0200[-n3W7-](~q_q@user/-d0t-/x-7915216)
2022-09-09 15:57:24 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 15:57:27 +0200Me-me(~me-me@user/me-me) (Quit: Disconnecting on purpose.)
2022-09-09 15:57:43 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> ohai! Is there a manual somewhere on how to manually implement a Lens? I can't find anything useful from the first glance :(
2022-09-09 15:58:05 +0200 <dminuoso> [-n3W7-]: You can use `lens` for starters
2022-09-09 15:58:10 +0200 <dminuoso> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.2/docs/Control-Lens-Combinators.html#v:lens
2022-09-09 15:58:21 +0200Me-me(~me-me@v.working.name)
2022-09-09 15:59:05 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> oh.. wow. This feels embarassing a bit :D
2022-09-09 15:59:08 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> Thank you!
2022-09-09 16:03:55 +0200dr_merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
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2022-09-09 16:04:55 +0200geekosaur-o geekosaur
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2022-09-09 17:12:46 +0200 <c_wraith> You can also just write one by hand. It's almost completely formulaic when you follow the types
2022-09-09 17:16:35 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> c_wraith: `lens` worked just fine, thank you. I prefer abstaining from using lens altogether. This time I'm just fixing some broken code.
2022-09-09 17:17:28 +0200 <c_wraith> so you don't use traverse or mapM either?
2022-09-09 17:17:55 +0200 <c_wraith> .... ok, that was a little on the snarky side. But lens is the same idea as those functions.
2022-09-09 17:18:34 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> c_wraith: lens the idea is. My problem is with lens the library.
2022-09-09 17:19:05 +0200 <geekosaur> o.O
2022-09-09 17:19:25 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> it feels like an entirely different language at times and not Haskell. Overall, to me it seems like a child of a solution in search of a problem and an overly complex attempt to plug the language deficiencies (kinda like Boost for C++)
2022-09-09 17:20:06 +0200 <geekosaur> I think most of us feel the opposite: it's a more Haskelly way to fix things like records than e.g. RecordDotSyntax
2022-09-09 17:20:49 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 17:20:50 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> Basically, I subscribe to ro-che's opinion about lens
2022-09-09 17:20:51 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> https://ro-che.info/articles/2014-04-24-lens-unidiomatic
2022-09-09 17:21:13 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 17:22:07 +0200nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-09-09 17:22:14 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> and since you mentioned RecordDotSyntax, my favorite thing about newcomers learning haskell is their first question often being "How come this advanced language still doesn't have normal records?"
2022-09-09 17:22:25 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> And then I tell them about lens, and they often never come back
2022-09-09 17:22:28 +0200 <Rembane> Historical reasons! :D
2022-09-09 17:22:34 +0200 <Rembane> Hm... how is optics vs lens in this regard?
2022-09-09 17:22:55 +0200`2jt(~jtomas@86.red-88-17-188.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-09-09 17:23:11 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> I personally don't care, since my small mind panics when it sees more than two type parameters in a type.
2022-09-09 17:23:59 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> that's why I prefer RecordDotSyntax and everything that comes with it.
2022-09-09 17:24:21 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> If I wanted to implement anything and everything either myself or via some library, I'd use Common Lisp.
2022-09-09 17:24:46 +0200 <c_wraith> oh hey. "backwards composition". I haven't heard that argument in ages.
2022-09-09 17:25:12 +0200 <c_wraith> lenses don't compose backwards. Their type *explicitly* says that they transform a small modifier into a bigger modifier.
2022-09-09 17:25:31 +0200 <c_wraith> they compose the same direction as everything else
2022-09-09 17:26:03 +0200 <c_wraith> which makes sense, given that they use the same composition operator as everything else.
2022-09-09 17:26:32 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> that's literally the least significant part of that argument :)
2022-09-09 17:26:49 +0200nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 17:26:54 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> Not being able to even remotely tell what the code does by looking at types is much more important
2022-09-09 17:26:58 +0200 <EvanR> lens was discovered not invented. You can tell
2022-09-09 17:27:15 +0200dr_merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-09-09 17:27:49 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> You can also tell that no other language has anything even remotely similar to lens. Probably because none is needed.
2022-09-09 17:27:57 +0200 <Rembane> dr_merijn: Good evening! Have you been levelling up lately?
2022-09-09 17:28:12 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> except maybe Perl and their weird OOP-in-a-library implementation.
2022-09-09 17:28:42 +0200 <c_wraith> [-n3W7-]: but... why does that claim the type of "below" is unreadable? it's... trivial...
2022-09-09 17:28:54 +0200`2jt(~jtomas@86.red-88-17-188.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
2022-09-09 17:28:58 +0200 <EvanR> like you can hate lens if I can hate group theory
2022-09-09 17:29:07 +0200 <EvanR> it kind of makes no sense argue with math
2022-09-09 17:29:42 +0200 <EvanR> you can only take it or leave xD
2022-09-09 17:29:42 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> c_wraith: more like abstract nonsense to me, honestly
2022-09-09 17:29:48 +0200 <EvanR> it
2022-09-09 17:29:52 +0200 <c_wraith> Like, there *are* unreadable types in lens
2022-09-09 17:29:54 +0200 <c_wraith> :t confusing
2022-09-09 17:29:55 +0200 <lambdabot> Applicative f => LensLike (Data.Functor.Day.Curried.Curried (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f) (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f)) s t a b -> LensLike f s t a b
2022-09-09 17:30:08 +0200 <c_wraith> What's that mean? heck if I know!
2022-09-09 17:30:18 +0200 <c_wraith> but below? That one's obvious.
2022-09-09 17:30:25 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> :t below
2022-09-09 17:30:26 +0200 <lambdabot> (Traversable f1, Choice p, Applicative f2) => APrism' s a -> p (f1 a) (f2 (f1 a)) -> p (f1 s) (f2 (f1 s))
2022-09-09 17:30:30 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> ugh.. right
2022-09-09 17:30:32 +0200 <EvanR> what's funny is that lens comes with a bunch of OOP-like subtyping features
2022-09-09 17:30:47 +0200 <EvanR> which are great... but why I don't use OOP
2022-09-09 17:30:49 +0200razetime(~quassel@117.193.3.234) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 17:31:04 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-09-09 17:31:16 +0200 <EvanR> but I've come to accept OOP just like accepting actual math
2022-09-09 17:31:38 +0200 <c_wraith> well. lens has subtyping, but it doesn't have anything as bizarre as OOP's subclassing.
2022-09-09 17:31:50 +0200 <EvanR> no it actually makes way more sense
2022-09-09 17:32:34 +0200 <EvanR> after seeing lens in action you can go back to industrial OOP and identify things that could be better
2022-09-09 17:32:43 +0200 <EvanR> after seeing lens (and many other haskell things)
2022-09-09 17:32:47 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> my favorite feature of lens is that they often give the second longest type errors. First place here belongs to servant, of course.
2022-09-09 17:32:47 +0200 <Rembane> +1
2022-09-09 17:32:56 +0200dr_merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-09-09 17:33:08 +0200 <Rembane> Argh, wrong timing on my part. I'm missing so much from Haskell when I code in other languages.
2022-09-09 17:33:20 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> Rembane: same. But definitely not lens.
2022-09-09 17:33:39 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> I actually miss normal records in Haskell after writing code in other languages.
2022-09-09 17:34:01 +0200 <EvanR> other people want haskell in their language. Hence the current proposal on elixir to add <- syntax... to basically do a State
2022-09-09 17:34:07 +0200 <EvanR> of all things
2022-09-09 17:34:22 +0200 <EvanR> so that something like mapAccumL is easier for noobs
2022-09-09 17:34:27 +0200pieguy128(~pieguy128@bras-base-mtrlpq5031w-grc-37-70-24-250-37.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 17:34:38 +0200 <EvanR> so it's a very backwards thing to want from haskell
2022-09-09 17:35:26 +0200 <kaol> > join (,) 1
2022-09-09 17:35:28 +0200 <lambdabot> (1,1)
2022-09-09 17:35:36 +0200 <kaol> I think this is enough Haskell for me today.
2022-09-09 17:35:44 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> :D
2022-09-09 17:35:55 +0200 <EvanR> definitely a lot going on there
2022-09-09 17:36:03 +0200 <EvanR> "one haskell a day calendar"
2022-09-09 17:36:10 +0200 <Rembane> [-n3W7-]: I think Haskell records work quite well
2022-09-09 17:36:19 +0200ft(~ft@p4fc2a0f5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-09-09 17:36:33 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> Rembane: like the fact that you couldn't have two fields with the same name in the same module until recently?
2022-09-09 17:36:42 +0200pieguy128(~pieguy128@bras-base-mtrlpq5031w-grc-37-70-24-250-230.dsl.bell.ca)
2022-09-09 17:36:45 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> wouldn't exactly call this "well"
2022-09-09 17:37:08 +0200 <Rembane> [-n3W7-]: YMMV
2022-09-09 17:37:08 +0200 <EvanR> among the reasons being it would auto produce accessor functions
2022-09-09 17:37:18 +0200razetime(~quassel@117.254.34.220)
2022-09-09 17:37:18 +0200 <EvanR> fields = accessors is an issue
2022-09-09 17:37:21 +0200zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag)
2022-09-09 17:37:24 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> I know the reasons. This doesn't make them good.
2022-09-09 17:37:55 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> Honestly, this part of Haskell is just bad language design that managed to survive for 30 years.
2022-09-09 17:38:24 +0200 <EvanR> there was a time when haskell could rapid change things and break everyone's code
2022-09-09 17:38:48 +0200 <EvanR> it's time to move to the next 700 languages and use what we learned xD
2022-09-09 17:38:57 +0200 <EvanR> hopefully
2022-09-09 17:39:13 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> or maybe make Haskell 2.0 (or whatever the number is) and just break it once for good
2022-09-09 17:39:32 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> although, python has taught us why this probably is even worse idea
2022-09-09 17:39:35 +0200 <EvanR> that's just asking for punishment
2022-09-09 17:39:46 +0200 <EvanR> like how C++ is "C done right"
2022-09-09 17:40:04 +0200 <EvanR> no it's better to just do a paradigm shift
2022-09-09 17:40:17 +0200 <kaol> I want a language where every record is a profunctor.
2022-09-09 17:40:20 +0200toeffel(~toeffel@user/toeffel) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-09-09 17:40:22 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> c++ isn't c done right. It's a different language.
2022-09-09 17:40:52 +0200 <dolio> The problem with the above comparison is that what is interesting about lens isn't record accessors.
2022-09-09 17:40:56 +0200 <EvanR> we now know that with hindsight and 3.5 decades of additions
2022-09-09 17:40:57 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> it doesn't even fix anything from c whatsoever. Just adds a bunch of stuff.
2022-09-09 17:41:20 +0200 <EvanR> if haskell 2.0 is a different language in a good way, why call it that
2022-09-09 17:41:33 +0200 <dolio> It's composable traversals and such, which are way more widely useful than record accessors.
2022-09-09 17:41:46 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> EvanR: i never said it should be a different language altogether. Just fix what's broken and move on.
2022-09-09 17:41:59 +0200gdown(~gavin@h69-11-149-231.kndrid.broadband.dynamic.tds.net)
2022-09-09 17:42:13 +0200 <geekosaur> stealing syntax is not fixing what's broken
2022-09-09 17:42:33 +0200 <[-n3W7-]> i digress
2022-09-09 17:42:37 +0200 <EvanR> that's a ridiculously huge project for these goals lol
2022-09-09 17:43:01 +0200 <geekosaur> . already has several meanings including an entirely valid meaning for the one RecordDotSyntax stole
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2022-09-09 17:45:09 +0200dtman34(~dtman34@c-73-62-246-247.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
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2022-09-09 17:46:54 +0200dr_merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-09-09 17:50:43 +0200econo(uid147250@user/econo)
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2022-09-09 17:57:20 +0200nschoe(~quassel@178.251.84.79) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2022-09-09 17:59:52 +0200BusConscious(~martin@ip5f5acc36.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
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2022-09-09 18:00:05 +0200 <BusConscious> can you concat a Data.Set of Data.Sets ?
2022-09-09 18:00:09 +0200Player-205[m](~sashaserp@2001:470:69fc:105::2:30b8) (Quit: You have been kicked for being idle)
2022-09-09 18:02:36 +0200 <geekosaur> not as such. you could fold a union across it though, I think
2022-09-09 18:02:54 +0200 <BusConscious> ah makes sense
2022-09-09 18:03:17 +0200 <BusConscious> thank you
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2022-09-09 18:39:44 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2022-09-09 18:44:26 +0200rockymarine(~rocky@user/rockymarine)
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2022-09-09 18:57:46 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-09-09 18:57:55 +0200dr_merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-09-09 18:59:01 +0200Null_A_(~null_a@c-73-93-244-42.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2022-09-09 18:59:46 +0200coot(~coot@213.134.176.158)
2022-09-09 19:02:28 +0200weeezes[m](~weeezesma@2001:470:69fc:105::1:da65)
2022-09-09 19:02:48 +0200Null_A(~null_a@c-73-93-244-42.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 19:03:06 +0200dr_merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-09-09 19:05:18 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2022-09-09 19:08:25 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-09-09 19:09:17 +0200 <EvanR> :t unions
2022-09-09 19:09:18 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2022-09-09 19:09:18 +0200 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: unions
2022-09-09 19:09:18 +0200 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant one of these:
2022-09-09 19:11:37 +0200 <geekosaur> :t Set.unions
2022-09-09 19:11:39 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2022-09-09 19:11:39 +0200 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘Set.unions’
2022-09-09 19:11:39 +0200 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
2022-09-09 19:11:41 +0200 <geekosaur> bah
2022-09-09 19:11:47 +0200 <geekosaur> :t Data.Set.unions
2022-09-09 19:11:48 +0200 <lambdabot> (Foldable f, Ord a) => f (S.Set a) -> S.Set a
2022-09-09 19:12:01 +0200 <[exa]> colaterally I find there's no package that would contain onions
2022-09-09 19:12:52 +0200 <EvanR> onions :: Chef -> Tears
2022-09-09 19:12:53 +0200 <[exa]> we've got lenses and plates and zooms and whatnot but y no onions, so layerish :(
2022-09-09 19:13:11 +0200 <geekosaur> or a garden to go with the aviary
2022-09-09 19:20:07 +0200gurkenglas(~gurkengla@p548ac72e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 19:20:10 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 19:21:00 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 19:21:11 +0200[-n3W7-](~q_q@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-09-09 19:21:43 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
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2022-09-09 19:25:53 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
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2022-09-09 19:31:47 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-09-09 19:32:26 +0200dr_merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-09-09 19:35:32 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 19:35:59 +0200raym(~raym@user/raym) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 19:36:16 +0200losfair[m](~losfairma@2001:470:69fc:105::2:7ca3)
2022-09-09 19:36:42 +0200gurkenglas(~gurkengla@p548ac72e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-09-09 19:39:15 +0200Ram-Z(~Ram-Z@li1814-254.members.linode.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-09-09 19:39:23 +0200 <monochrom> We have garden-variety monads, implying that we do have a garden in the first place. -XImpllicitGarden
2022-09-09 19:39:46 +0200 <AndreasK> If you dive deep enough you can find some https://hackage-search.serokell.io/?q=%5Csonion%5Cs
2022-09-09 19:40:01 +0200Ram-Z(~Ram-Z@li1814-254.members.linode.com)
2022-09-09 19:40:45 +0200 <monochrom> Is that a typo for union? Or even a pun on union?
2022-09-09 19:43:07 +0200 <monochrom> Speaking of AVL trees, I like lenses for being first-class references, i.e., recall that in AVL trees (or all balanced BSTs) you write one copy of code for left rotation and another copy for right rotation. That begs for parameterization, and the solution is to parameterize by first-class references such as lenses.
2022-09-09 19:44:09 +0200 <[exa]> AndreasK: oh lovable
2022-09-09 19:44:26 +0200raym(~raym@user/raym)
2022-09-09 19:46:10 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-09-09 19:50:39 +0200thyriaen(~thyriaen@2a02:8109:8340:686c:9288:a09f:e70d:853f) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-09-09 19:53:19 +0200simendsjo(~user@84.211.91.241)
2022-09-09 19:56:15 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-09-09 19:57:30 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-09-09 20:00:33 +0200razetime(~quassel@117.254.34.220) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 20:00:38 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-12.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2022-09-09 20:03:23 +0200dr_merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 20:06:05 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 20:09:03 +0200 <BusConscious> :w
2022-09-09 20:09:08 +0200 <BusConscious> sorry
2022-09-09 20:09:16 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-09-09 20:10:45 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-09-09 20:21:40 +0200 <carbolymer> BusConscious: still stranded in vim?
2022-09-09 20:22:27 +0200 <BusConscious> yes
2022-09-09 20:23:15 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 20:24:23 +0200yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@2a02:2788:224:71c:af11:6897:cb69:6e51)
2022-09-09 20:27:41 +0200 <__monty__> Quick un-asked-for Vim tip. Use `:up` or `:update` instead of `:w(rite)`. It avoids doing disk I/O if the file hasn't changed. Also, use `ZZ` instead of `:wq`, it basically does `:update` `:quit`.
2022-09-09 20:28:32 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-09-09 20:30:34 +0200coot(~coot@213.134.176.158) (Quit: coot)
2022-09-09 20:33:05 +0200 <c_wraith> and if you remember when Epic was still Epic Megagames, use ZZT
2022-09-09 20:36:03 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-09-09 20:38:27 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 20:39:00 +0200yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@2a02:2788:224:71c:af11:6897:cb69:6e51) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 20:39:17 +0200 <BusConscious> Can I Set.filter with an IO action?
2022-09-09 20:39:41 +0200toeffel(~toeffel@user/toeffel) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 20:40:00 +0200 <BusConscious> (a -> Bool) is expected, but I have FilePath -> IO Bool
2022-09-09 20:40:16 +0200khumba(~khumba@user/khumba) ()
2022-09-09 20:40:26 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 20:40:57 +0200 <c_wraith> Looks like not without going via an intermediate list
2022-09-09 20:41:56 +0200 <BusConscious> So does it work for lists at least?
2022-09-09 20:42:06 +0200 <c_wraith> oh, not true
2022-09-09 20:42:17 +0200 <c_wraith> If you want something mind-bending... Set.alterF
2022-09-09 20:42:43 +0200 <c_wraith> Oh, that doesn't map. nevermind
2022-09-09 20:43:12 +0200Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
2022-09-09 20:43:26 +0200 <BusConscious> I have a set of FilePaths and I want to filter for only those that are directories
2022-09-09 20:44:05 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 20:44:08 +0200 <BusConscious> isDir = (not <$>) . doesFileExist isDir is of type FilePath -> IO Bool
2022-09-09 20:44:18 +0200 <BusConscious> not -> Bool which is kind of the issue here
2022-09-09 20:44:28 +0200Lord_of_Life_Lord_of_Life
2022-09-09 20:44:35 +0200 <monochrom> There is possibly filterM somewhere in base, possibly Control.Monad
2022-09-09 20:45:06 +0200 <BusConscious> ah
2022-09-09 20:45:11 +0200 <c_wraith> I don't see anything better than this
2022-09-09 20:45:12 +0200 <c_wraith> :t \f s -> S.fromList <$> filterM f (S.toList s)
2022-09-09 20:45:13 +0200 <lambdabot> (Ord a, Applicative f) => (a -> f Bool) -> S.Set a -> f (S.Set a)
2022-09-09 20:45:31 +0200 <BusConscious> but this does sound exactly like what I asked for
2022-09-09 20:45:34 +0200 <BusConscious> time to try out
2022-09-09 20:45:46 +0200benin0(~benin@183.82.179.76) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2022-09-09 20:45:48 +0200 <c_wraith> though I suppose there's a good chance you might need need to make it back into a set
2022-09-09 20:46:32 +0200 <monochrom> You can use fromAscList in this case.
2022-09-09 20:46:46 +0200 <c_wraith> also, (not <$>) is fmap not, if you want to remove some parens from the composition
2022-09-09 20:47:07 +0200AlexNoo_(~AlexNoo@178.34.161.129)
2022-09-09 20:47:21 +0200AlexNoo_(~AlexNoo@178.34.161.129) (Client Quit)
2022-09-09 20:50:34 +0200 <monochrom> Perhaps there is something in the lens library haha
2022-09-09 20:50:55 +0200yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@2a02:2788:224:71c:b617:1eb0:9002:596f)
2022-09-09 20:51:26 +0200 <BusConscious> problem solved: I don't actually need sets
2022-09-09 20:52:09 +0200 <c_wraith> Nothing in lens - it doesn't have tools for filtering in general
2022-09-09 20:53:05 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-09-09 20:54:01 +0200 <c_wraith> oddly, nothing in Witherable either. It's all about filtering, but skips Set in favor of Traversable types
2022-09-09 20:59:53 +0200 <BusConscious> [IO a] -> IO [a] what was that again? I forgot
2022-09-09 20:59:59 +0200 <c_wraith> sequence
2022-09-09 21:00:19 +0200 <c_wraith> but you can probably avoid it with an early use of mapM or traverse instead of map
2022-09-09 21:02:36 +0200Ram-Z(~Ram-Z@li1814-254.members.linode.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-09-09 21:02:57 +0200 <BusConscious> I have to keep these _M variants in mind
2022-09-09 21:06:34 +0200dr_merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-09-09 21:06:49 +0200jespada(~jespada@cpc121060-nmal24-2-0-cust249.19-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 21:06:53 +0200 <tomsmeding> (mapM == traverse)
2022-09-09 21:07:06 +0200jespada_(~jespada@cpc121060-nmal24-2-0-cust249.19-2.cable.virginm.net)
2022-09-09 21:07:49 +0200yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@2a02:2788:224:71c:b617:1eb0:9002:596f) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 21:08:08 +0200yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@2a02:2788:224:71c:bcb0:1d71:c49:8e54)
2022-09-09 21:08:59 +0200 <c_wraith> is there any library out there that integrates property testing with the Distribution.TestSuite stuff in Cabal?
2022-09-09 21:09:16 +0200 <c_wraith> (any of the property checking libraries would be fine)
2022-09-09 21:10:26 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-09-09 21:11:05 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-09-09 21:11:50 +0200 <c_wraith> Oh. Hah. There's a super-minimal option called cabal-test-quickcheck. It would certainly work..
2022-09-09 21:12:08 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf)
2022-09-09 21:12:19 +0200gurkenglas(~gurkengla@p548ac72e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 21:12:58 +0200 <c_wraith> Though it hasn't been touched in a long time, and doesn't officially build against current Cabal
2022-09-09 21:13:04 +0200eikke(~NicolasT@user/NicolasT)
2022-09-09 21:13:08 +0200yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@2a02:2788:224:71c:bcb0:1d71:c49:8e54) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 21:13:26 +0200 <lyle> I'm getting the dreaded "There are files missing" when I try to build with cabal. What should I do? Here's a minimal project that reproduces the problem: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/96kCW5Tz
2022-09-09 21:13:45 +0200 <eikke> Is there a way to force GHC to use UTF-8 on default file handles, on a system where locale files are not present, and without making code modifications?
2022-09-09 21:13:54 +0200 <lyle> I'm trying to make the switch from stack to cabal.
2022-09-09 21:14:49 +0200 <c_wraith> lyle: what version of cabal-install (that is, the cabal executable)
2022-09-09 21:15:38 +0200jespada_(~jespada@cpc121060-nmal24-2-0-cust249.19-2.cable.virginm.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-09-09 21:16:07 +0200 <c_wraith> lyle: though... it might be worth noting the library it's reporting problems with claims to be deprecated anyway
2022-09-09 21:16:10 +0200 <lyle> cabal-install version 3.6.2.0. I installed it via ghcup.
2022-09-09 21:16:17 +0200jespada(~jespada@cpc121060-nmal24-2-0-cust249.19-2.cable.virginm.net)
2022-09-09 21:16:59 +0200nbms^(~nbms@96-86-241-229-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
2022-09-09 21:17:01 +0200alternateved(~user@staticline-31-183-146-203.toya.net.pl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 21:20:46 +0200simendsjo(~user@84.211.91.241) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-09-09 21:23:38 +0200nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-09-09 21:27:07 +0200justachejustJingo
2022-09-09 21:27:47 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:213:7200:cc36:a556:b1e8:b340)
2022-09-09 21:28:27 +0200nate1(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-09-09 21:28:47 +0200 <geekosaur> eikke, you can still set the environment variables and they will be used by ghc the RTS has its own Unicode support tables which are regularly updated, rather than using locale files)
2022-09-09 21:28:54 +0200gurkenglas(~gurkengla@p548ac72e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-09-09 21:29:04 +0200 <geekosaur> *(the RTS
2022-09-09 21:30:18 +0200Ram-Z(~Ram-Z@li1814-254.members.linode.com)
2022-09-09 21:30:22 +0200 <Noinia> hmm, I guess it isn't possible to define bidirectional type synonyms as part of a typeclass..... Maybe that was a too strange thing to hope for. Is there an obvious reason why that should not be possible?
2022-09-09 21:30:49 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 21:31:04 +0200 <Noinia> (or any pattern synonym for that matter)
2022-09-09 21:32:19 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx)
2022-09-09 21:33:08 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:edd:a862:45c5:dfa2)
2022-09-09 21:33:55 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-09-09 21:35:26 +0200 <geekosaur> typeclasses are open, whereas bidirectionality requires that the "universe" of types on both sides be closed
2022-09-09 21:35:33 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 21:36:21 +0200 <geekosaur> and I'm not sure what ypu mean by the reference to pattern synonyms, but there's nowhere meaningful to put one in a typeclass instance's witness record
2022-09-09 21:36:28 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2022-09-09 21:36:54 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-09-09 21:37:54 +0200mastarija(~mastarija@46.188.135.255)
2022-09-09 21:39:43 +0200 <mastarija> Why is GHC bugging me about this `m` being the `IO`?
2022-09-09 21:39:51 +0200 <mastarija> genCode :: MonadIO m => m Natural
2022-09-09 21:39:57 +0200 <mastarija> genCode = fmap fromIntegral $ getStdRandom $ randomR (0, 9999 :: Int)
2022-09-09 21:40:22 +0200dr_merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-09-09 21:40:38 +0200 <dolio> Most functions aren't overloaded to MonadIO.
2022-09-09 21:40:54 +0200 <mastarija> I see nothing that would specialize `m` to `IO`
2022-09-09 21:41:03 +0200 <geekosaur> :t getStdRandom
2022-09-09 21:41:04 +0200 <lambdabot> MonadIO m => (StdGen -> (a, StdGen)) -> m a
2022-09-09 21:41:15 +0200 <geekosaur> :t randomR
2022-09-09 21:41:16 +0200 <lambdabot> (Random a, RandomGen g) => (a, a) -> g -> (a, g)
2022-09-09 21:41:23 +0200 <eikke> geekosaur: that's not what I'm seeing sadly enough :( I set LC_CTYPE/LC_ALL/LANG, and the localeEncodingName is/remains ANSI_X3.4-1968. Reading GHC sources, that seems kinda expected.
2022-09-09 21:41:24 +0200 <mastarija> Right, that shouldn't interfere
2022-09-09 21:41:44 +0200 <lyle> Figured it out--I had had .cabal/config set up to use shared libaries from some earlier attempt to switch to cabal that I forgot about. I deleted ~/.cabal and started over with the default config.
2022-09-09 21:42:26 +0200 <dolio> Wow, guess I haven't used the random package in a while.
2022-09-09 21:42:44 +0200 <mastarija> Hm.. maybe I'm on an old version...
2022-09-09 21:43:00 +0200 <mastarija> How do I check my packages again, is it ghc-packages or something
2022-09-09 21:43:02 +0200 <dolio> Yeah, in 1.1 it's IO.
2022-09-09 21:43:18 +0200 <geekosaur> ghc-pkg list, but it won't show stuff you installed with cabal or stack
2022-09-09 21:43:26 +0200 <mastarija> I'm in nix shell
2022-09-09 21:43:28 +0200 <dolio> 1.2 is 2 years old, though.
2022-09-09 21:43:29 +0200toeffel(~toeffel@user/toeffel)
2022-09-09 21:43:31 +0200 <mastarija> it should show
2022-09-09 21:43:40 +0200 <Noinia> geekosaur: I was trying to do something like this: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/o7mCW7kU
2022-09-09 21:43:51 +0200 <Noinia> I would think that could potentially make sense no?
2022-09-09 21:44:13 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-09-09 21:44:48 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx)
2022-09-09 21:44:54 +0200 <geekosaur> that would definitely require compiler changes. I guess you could file a proposal
2022-09-09 21:45:18 +0200 <[Leary]> You might want ... was it data families? data instances?
2022-09-09 21:45:22 +0200 <geekosaur> but currently I think a pattern has to apply to a concrete type, not a typeclass instance
2022-09-09 21:45:45 +0200 <mastarija> Yeah.. I have random-1.1 package
2022-09-09 21:45:53 +0200 <mastarija> lift it is
2022-09-09 21:46:09 +0200 <Noinia> yes I realized tat; and it does seem like a somewat niche thing to ask for
2022-09-09 21:47:12 +0200 <Noinia> maybe I sould first figure out if what I currently have (i.e. the pattern synonym outside the class) produces reasonable core anyway, or that there is actual performance to be gained
2022-09-09 21:47:22 +0200 <[Leary]> Noinia: The other possibility is to just write the pattern synonym outside the class, with the implementation for one direction in the class.
2022-09-09 21:48:18 +0200 <eikke> geekosaur: from what I see, RTS init calls setlocale(LC_CTYPE, ""), then the locales used are set to the one retrieved by c_localeEncoding, which calls either libcharset or glibc, i.e., nl_langinfo, which needs the database or falls back to ANSI_X3.4-1968
2022-09-09 21:48:33 +0200 <geekosaur> oh. sigh
2022-09-09 21:48:41 +0200 <geekosaur> then I think you're stuck
2022-09-09 21:49:49 +0200 <Noinia> [Leary]: hmm, yes I guess I'll try and play with that a bit more as well.
2022-09-09 21:50:10 +0200 <geekosaur> unless you can LD_PRELOAD a dummy setlocale and such
2022-09-09 21:51:32 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2022-09-09 21:51:36 +0200 <eikke> geekosaur: hackish, but yeah. May give that a try.
2022-09-09 21:51:48 +0200yvan-sraka(~yvan-srak@2a02:2788:224:71c:aa67:189e:803f:f691)
2022-09-09 21:51:54 +0200 <monochrom> Is there a way to externally point glibc to locale files that you prepare? :)
2022-09-09 21:51:57 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv)
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2022-09-09 21:52:33 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:edd:a862:45c5:dfa2) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-09-09 21:54:26 +0200MoC(~moc@user/moc) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2022-09-09 21:54:41 +0200 <geekosaur> looks like LOCPATH might be a thingt
2022-09-09 21:55:23 +0200 <geekosaur> see `man 1 locale`; `setlocale(3)` doesn't document it
2022-09-09 21:56:19 +0200eikke(~NicolasT@user/NicolasT) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2022-09-09 21:56:47 +0200 <geekosaur> mmm, guess they missed it 😞
2022-09-09 21:57:29 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2022-09-09 21:58:21 +0200Guest15(~Guest15@93.171.102.207)
2022-09-09 21:58:35 +0200 <monochrom> Oh, man 7 locale has LOCPATH :)
2022-09-09 21:59:32 +0200 <monochrom> But yeah if it has "used by newlocale(3) and setlocale(3)" then seriously newlocale(3) and setlocale(3) should also bring it up.
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2022-09-09 22:44:36 +0200eikke(~NicolasT@user/NicolasT)
2022-09-09 22:46:56 +0200 <eikke> monochrom: yes, but that won't solve my issue where I simply don't have locale files available in the env :) doesn't really matter where
2022-09-09 22:48:07 +0200 <geekosaur> but there are tools to make locale files and you could conceivably make the necessary ones for Unicode as one way around it
2022-09-09 22:48:26 +0200 <geekosaur> less hacky than LD_PRELOAD
2022-09-09 22:48:52 +0200 <geekosaur> (or not even make them, just copy the UTF8 ones you need from somewhere)
2022-09-09 22:51:22 +0200jargon(~jargon@184.101.66.251)
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2022-09-09 23:05:18 +0200 <eikke> geekosaur: yeah including the file technically works. Not sure it's the right approach given the build system I'll need to adapt somehow. Will figure it out.
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