2022/07/15

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2022-07-15 01:27:55 +0200 <Logio> they are nice for calculus, specifically
2022-07-15 01:28:43 +0200quarkyalice_(~alice@172.77.29.178)
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2022-07-15 01:28:43 +0200quarkyalice_(~alice@user/quarkyalice/x-8092822)
2022-07-15 01:28:51 +0200 <dolio> Yeah, they are sort of exactly what you'd come up with to make ε-δ work.
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2022-07-15 02:26:35 +0200mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5ce3:8500::909a)
2022-07-15 02:29:04 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
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2022-07-15 02:30:59 +0200 <Axman6> > map sort $ permutations [0/0, 1, 0/0, -1]
2022-07-15 02:31:01 +0200 <lambdabot> [[-1.0,NaN,1.0,NaN],[-1.0,NaN,NaN,1.0],[-1.0,NaN,1.0,NaN],[-1.0,NaN,NaN,1.0]...
2022-07-15 02:31:22 +0200 <Axman6> > all (== sort [0/0, 1, 0/0, -1]) $ map sort $ permutations [0/0, 1, 0/0, -1]
2022-07-15 02:31:24 +0200 <lambdabot> False
2022-07-15 02:31:27 +0200 <Axman6> D:
2022-07-15 02:33:35 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-07-15 02:33:43 +0200 <hpc> > floor (0/0)
2022-07-15 02:33:45 +0200 <lambdabot> -269653970229347386159395778618353710042696546841345985910145121736599013708...
2022-07-15 02:33:50 +0200 <Axman6> oh right. that equality won't work =) Thanks NaN
2022-07-15 02:34:04 +0200 <hpc> floats are terrible
2022-07-15 02:34:41 +0200 <geekosaur> my favorite NaN story is still http://calculist.blogspot.com/2006/02/nancy-typing.html
2022-07-15 02:35:13 +0200geekosaurwonders if that should work as https these days…
2022-07-15 02:35:42 +0200quarkyalice_(~alice@user/quarkyalice/x-8092822) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-15 02:35:47 +0200 <geekosaur> yes, it turns out
2022-07-15 02:35:53 +0200 <geekosaur> just an ancient bookmark
2022-07-15 02:41:01 +0200pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
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2022-07-15 02:43:40 +0200 <hpc> that quirk of perl always gets people
2022-07-15 02:43:48 +0200 <hpc> and for extra fun, it's the opposite of in bash
2022-07-15 02:43:59 +0200 <hpc> == in bash is stringy, and numbery in perl
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2022-07-15 02:50:09 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-15 02:51:16 +0200 <Axman6> I'm annoyed with myself for not seeing where that article was going sooner; I assumed Nancy was just a cute name for something involving NaNs. Nice story
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2022-07-15 03:01:50 +0200 <jackdk> Does this newtype exist anywhere? `newtype P a b = P (a -> a -> b)`; `instance Profunctor p`
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2022-07-15 03:39:15 +0200 <jackdk> Also, is there an optic that represents a function f and its section, or f and its retraction, rather than a true isomorphism?
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2022-07-15 03:52:16 +0200 <jackdk> Also also, is anyone aware of a way to get an indexed fold or traversal out of `[(a, b)]` that treats `a` as its index?
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2022-07-15 04:04:04 +0200 <jackdk> I suppose I should stop X-Y probleming this channel. Here's what I'm trying to help a colleague with: given `f :: a -> a -> b` and `i :: Iso s t a b`, is there a compact way to create `g :: s -> s -> t`? Best I've found is `withIso i $ \sa bt -> curry $ bt . uncurry f . join bimap sa` or `withIso i $ \sa bt s1 s2 -> bt $ f (sa s1) (sa s2)`.
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2022-07-15 04:07:07 +0200frost(~frost@user/frost)
2022-07-15 04:08:00 +0200 <dibblego> withIso i $ \sa bt s1 s2 -> bt (on f sa s1 s2)
2022-07-15 04:09:43 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
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2022-07-15 04:24:37 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
2022-07-15 04:24:45 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
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2022-07-15 04:34:08 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-21-122.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2022-07-15 04:36:53 +0200 <jackdk> thanks dibblego , still feels like there should be a simpler way to do this somewhere
2022-07-15 04:37:16 +0200lys(sid194105@user/lys) ()
2022-07-15 04:39:37 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@d55hl97hl1tfww5gtby-4.rev.dnainternet.fi)
2022-07-15 04:39:47 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2022-07-15 04:43:22 +0200 <somniad> silly small question, I know you can do `cabal run` but how do you actually specify the location of the built executable? I've tried searching cabal's docs but I must be using the wrong words or otherwise screwing something up
2022-07-15 04:44:02 +0200 <dibblego> you shouldn't have to
2022-07-15 04:45:05 +0200 <somniad> is it somewhere obvious and I'm not seeing it?
2022-07-15 04:45:12 +0200mzan(~quassel@mail.asterisell.com) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2022-07-15 04:45:13 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-15 04:46:29 +0200mzan(~quassel@mail.asterisell.com)
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2022-07-15 04:48:49 +0200 <dibblego> does it run if you use cabal run?
2022-07-15 04:49:40 +0200 <somniad> okay so I *found the executable* but it's so deep in really weird folders that I thought it must have been looping with a symlink and I wasn't noticing
2022-07-15 04:50:14 +0200 <somniad> and yes, it does
2022-07-15 04:53:54 +0200inversed(~inversed@05412f44.skybroadband.com)
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2022-07-15 04:58:10 +0200 <dibblego> why do you need to know the location of the exe?
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2022-07-15 05:23:53 +0200 <somniad> dibblego: sorry for late response, I was curious how big it was and also wanted to try passing arguments to it - though I imagine I can do that second one with cabal
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2022-07-15 05:30:21 +0200 <Axman6> does cabal run which myExe work? I can't remember how run works
2022-07-15 05:31:05 +0200 <sclv> use cabal list-bin
2022-07-15 05:31:41 +0200 <sclv> to get the full path
2022-07-15 05:31:44 +0200 <Axman6> ah nice
2022-07-15 05:32:04 +0200dos__^^(~user@user/dos/x-1723657) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-07-15 05:38:54 +0200bajskorfven00(~bajskorfv@90-231-13-185-no3430.tbcn.telia.com)
2022-07-15 05:41:05 +0200 <somniad> ah,neat
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2022-07-15 06:17:36 +0200 <jackdk> ah noice
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2022-07-15 07:43:46 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
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2022-07-15 08:10:44 +0200Nolrai(~Nolrai@c-73-240-99-51.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2022-07-15 08:16:24 +0200 <Nolrai> So stack and Haskell Language Server seem not to work together, should I learn to use the "cabal" tool?
2022-07-15 08:16:54 +0200 <Axman6> I think irrespective of the first part of that sentense you should learn to use cabal
2022-07-15 08:19:09 +0200mima(~mmh@aftr-62-216-210-53.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-07-15 08:20:22 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
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2022-07-15 08:23:21 +0200 <Nolrai> Hmm.
2022-07-15 08:23:27 +0200zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2022-07-15 08:23:29 +0200 <Nolrai> Well okay.
2022-07-15 08:24:56 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-07-15 08:28:11 +0200 <Athas> Nolrai: I agree; cabal is better than stack nowadays.
2022-07-15 08:28:35 +0200 <Athas> It has a slightly higher startup cost, because it doesn't install GHC for you, but I think it otherwise works better with modern tooling.
2022-07-15 08:28:57 +0200 <Axman6> which is a moot point with ghcup these days
2022-07-15 08:28:59 +0200 <Athas> By the way, does anyone know if it's possible for cabal to produce timings for how long it takes to compile the various modules in my program?
2022-07-15 08:29:18 +0200 <Axman6> I'm sure there are GHC flags you can pass
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2022-07-15 09:10:20 +0200PiDelport(uid25146@id-25146.lymington.irccloud.com)
2022-07-15 09:15:05 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
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2022-07-15 09:23:50 +0200gensyst(gensyst@user/gensyst)
2022-07-15 09:24:29 +0200 <gensyst> Hi, if I have just a binary (executable) GHC compiled with -O2, I can be certain it can't be reverse engineered to the Haskell code right?
2022-07-15 09:24:54 +0200 <Athas> You can never be certain, but I don't think decompiling Haskell is easy at all.
2022-07-15 09:25:08 +0200 <gensyst> Athas, comments and types will definitely be gone?
2022-07-15 09:25:30 +0200 <Axman6> Planning to cheat on an assignment? XD
2022-07-15 09:25:31 +0200 <Athas> Yes, but remember to use 'strip' to remove symbols if you're worried. I don't know how much GHC leaves in my default.
2022-07-15 09:25:45 +0200 <Athas> Comments _definitely_ gone; that's the case for any language.
2022-07-15 09:26:35 +0200 <Hecate> https://dogbolt.org/
2022-07-15 09:26:38 +0200 <Hecate> let's find out!
2022-07-15 09:26:48 +0200 <Axman6> running strings on the app afterwards will reveal a lot about what's left. chucking it in something like Ghidra would tell you what the code actually looks like. GHC's output is _extremely_ confusing to decompilation tools - it would be perfect for writing obfuscated malware IMO
2022-07-15 09:27:07 +0200 <Axman6> godbolt.org*
2022-07-15 09:27:18 +0200 <Axman6> oh, that's actually a thing, amazing
2022-07-15 09:27:31 +0200 <Axman6> I've spent the last three days deep in godbolt.org
2022-07-15 09:27:51 +0200 <gensyst> Athas, can you find any strip option here? https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/intro.html
2022-07-15 09:27:53 +0200 <Athas> The binary code produced by GHC is absolutely littered with indirect calls. I think it would be a nightmare to decompile.
2022-07-15 09:28:02 +0200 <Axman6> Good luck getting the HAskell binary under 2MB to test it
2022-07-15 09:28:07 +0200 <Hecate> expect that a 14 lines program compiles to 3.2MB here, so fuck me
2022-07-15 09:28:10 +0200 <Athas> gensyst: 'strip' is a standard Unix tool, not a part of GHC. You likely already have it installed.
2022-07-15 09:28:16 +0200 <gensyst> ah!
2022-07-15 09:28:21 +0200 <Hecate> although if I strip it, it's 756k
2022-07-15 09:28:24 +0200 <Hecate> WHAT THE FUCK
2022-07-15 09:28:31 +0200 <Hecate> WHAT DO WE STORE IN THE STRIPPED SECTIONS
2022-07-15 09:28:33 +0200 <[exa]> Hecate: static linking
2022-07-15 09:28:37 +0200son0p(~ff@181.136.122.143)
2022-07-15 09:28:42 +0200 <[exa]> Hecate: ah and the debug info and symbols
2022-07-15 09:28:44 +0200 <Axman6> Aren't you a GHC dev? :p
2022-07-15 09:28:52 +0200 <[exa]> lol
2022-07-15 09:28:55 +0200 <Athas> Hecate: if you pass Haskell helloworld to a decompiler, won't 99% of the output be the Haskell RTS?
2022-07-15 09:29:06 +0200 <Hecate> Axman6: I am a developer for the GHC project, but I'm not a compiler engineer
2022-07-15 09:29:10 +0200 <Athas> gensyst: it will probably be very obvious that the program was originally written in Haskell.
2022-07-15 09:29:15 +0200 <albet70> is anyone using scotty? how to upload a large file with chunked data to scotty?
2022-07-15 09:29:27 +0200 <Hecate> Athas: well, now that I have a reasonably-sized binary I can see
2022-07-15 09:29:59 +0200 <Hecate> https://dogbolt.org/?id=2c3b3183-72b0-4bb3-966b-c3678e0d79ce
2022-07-15 09:30:04 +0200 <[exa]> albet70: you need a piece of javascript that manages it on the browser side. There are pretty nice ones for react and all other frameworks
2022-07-15 09:31:42 +0200 <Athas> Hecate: what's up with those "tailcalls" in BinaryNinja?
2022-07-15 09:32:10 +0200 <gensyst> Athas, stripping reduced size from 3MB to 1.5MB
2022-07-15 09:32:16 +0200 <gensyst> so now, how to automatically strip?
2022-07-15 09:32:19 +0200 <gensyst> possible in cabal?
2022-07-15 09:32:23 +0200 <Hecate> Athas: yeah I was wondering as well
2022-07-15 09:32:44 +0200 <gensyst> (is that not done by default for profiling reasons?)
2022-07-15 09:33:23 +0200 <Hecate> no, profiling is its own set of options
2022-07-15 09:33:48 +0200 <Hecate> that being said if we had a "release" mode in cabal, we would strip and upx the shit out of the binary ;-D
2022-07-15 09:34:31 +0200 <Axman6> Hecate: this is amazing, thanks for the link. I have been getting a long way with godbolt.org and llvm-mca
2022-07-15 09:35:45 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2022-07-15 09:36:09 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2022-07-15 09:36:17 +0200 <Axman6> Back in the day I managed to ship a haskell app in an 8MB docker container doing things like that and statically linking
2022-07-15 09:36:26 +0200 <Hecate> Axman6: you're welcome :)
2022-07-15 09:36:35 +0200 <Hecate> yes, alpine linux as a compilation host is 👍
2022-07-15 09:36:47 +0200 <Axman6> Athas: Why wouldn't you expect to see lots of tailcalls? GHC is all about tail calls, everything is a tail call
2022-07-15 09:36:49 +0200 <gensyst> So even if something could be reverse engineered (unlikely to begin with), it's still useless/unreadable because types are gone right?
2022-07-15 09:37:32 +0200 <Axman6> if you know what you're looking at you might be able to make some inferences, and IIRC the symbols tell you a hell of a lot, but I'm not sure how much of that is stripped when you strip
2022-07-15 09:37:36 +0200 <Hecate> it depends? If you are reverse-engineering a program, you're interested in the behaviour, the implementation comes from you :P
2022-07-15 09:37:52 +0200 <Hecate> you can also use `rr` if the binary segfaults
2022-07-15 09:37:53 +0200 <Axman6> like if you've spent any time looking at Core, you'll be used to how it mangles names
2022-07-15 09:39:44 +0200 <Axman6> huh, all the recursive tailcalls are weird though
2022-07-15 09:40:12 +0200 <Axman6> free(mem) { return free(mem); } is very odd
2022-07-15 09:40:40 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-07-15 09:41:30 +0200chele(~chele@user/chele)
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2022-07-15 09:42:26 +0200 <Axman6> (uh, in one of the examples, not the link above)
2022-07-15 09:42:37 +0200jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d437cf.access.ecotel.net)
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2022-07-15 09:58:27 +0200merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-023.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-07-15 10:04:14 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> If I want to improve the handling of Show Char for Unicode: where should I propose that?
2022-07-15 10:08:22 +0200ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Quit: ec)
2022-07-15 10:09:58 +0200 <albet70> "🟢 [exa] :albet70: you need a piece of javascript that manages it on the browser side. There are pretty nice ones for react and all other frameworks", on the server side, how it handle it? I'm reading the scotty docs, there's no "chunck-data" function under the request section, but there's "bodyReader", is that what I need?
2022-07-15 10:11:41 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-15 10:12:47 +0200chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-07-15 10:15:10 +0200Nolrai(~Nolrai@c-73-240-99-51.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2022-07-15 10:15:46 +0200gurkenglas(~gurkengla@dslb-002-203-144-112.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
2022-07-15 10:16:07 +0200 <Nolrai> So any thoughts on if gnuplot or Chart is easier to get running (on windows)?
2022-07-15 10:16:37 +0200vpan(~0@212.117.1.172)
2022-07-15 10:19:49 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2022-07-15 10:22:59 +0200ccntrq(~Thunderbi@2a01:c23:8888:4200:5ba1:209e:3ae1:962a)
2022-07-15 10:26:02 +0200TMA(tma@twin.jikos.cz)
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2022-07-15 10:28:59 +0200 <merijn> JensPetersen[m]: Define "improve"
2022-07-15 10:30:13 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> Thanks I already got pointed to https://github.com/haskell/core-libraries-committee/issues/26
2022-07-15 10:31:09 +0200TMA(tma@twin.jikos.cz)
2022-07-15 10:32:00 +0200shriekingnoise(~shrieking@201.212.175.181) (Quit: Quit)
2022-07-15 10:34:30 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-62-240-134-33.mrsn.at)
2022-07-15 10:34:48 +0200 <merijn> JensPetersen[m]: That issue indeed address a lot of problems I have with the word "improving", because arguably a lots of suggested improvements are (in my view) actually regressions :p
2022-07-15 10:35:58 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> merijn: ya it would be a breaking change - maybe there is a another way
2022-07-15 10:36:08 +0200alp(~alp@user/alp)
2022-07-15 10:37:32 +0200 <merijn> JensPetersen[m]: Generally the solution is "don't use show on text" ;)
2022-07-15 10:38:15 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> merijn: don't use show on error messages? :)
2022-07-15 10:38:34 +0200 <merijn> JensPetersen[m]: What error messages are you referring too?
2022-07-15 10:38:46 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> Show is everywhere
2022-07-15 10:39:13 +0200 <merijn> Ah, as in when ouputting data for inside an error message, you mean?
2022-07-15 10:39:22 +0200Nolrai(~Nolrai@c-73-240-99-51.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-15 10:39:31 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> Anyway I see your point - I prefer to these things at a more core level
2022-07-15 10:39:45 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> to fix these *
2022-07-15 10:39:56 +0200 <merijn> JensPetersen[m]: tbh, for outputting data in error messages I would personally use pretty-simple anyway: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pretty-simple
2022-07-15 10:40:08 +0200 <merijn> JensPetersen[m]: Which also does fancy indenting layout of complex data types
2022-07-15 10:40:09 +0200zxx7529(~Thunderbi@user/zxx7529)
2022-07-15 10:40:13 +0200alp(~alp@user/alp) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-15 10:40:15 +0200 <maerwald[m]> merijn: you're aware that can crash your program on windows?
2022-07-15 10:40:19 +0200 <maerwald[m]> Not using show
2022-07-15 10:40:29 +0200 <maerwald[m]> Because of encoding issues
2022-07-15 10:41:06 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> I guess I am only arguing that the solution should be part of ghc, not from outside
2022-07-15 10:41:45 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> Any external lib is just a workaround and nothing more IMO
2022-07-15 10:42:33 +0200 <merijn> On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, making everything a part of GHC makes it a massive monolith that's very brittle, because then you can't upgrade stuff without upgrading GHC
2022-07-15 10:42:52 +0200 <merijn> And upgrading GHC is not always trivial
2022-07-15 10:43:40 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> well hopefully in GHC2032 ;o)
2022-07-15 10:44:14 +0200alp(~alp@user/alp)
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2022-07-15 10:44:56 +0200mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
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2022-07-15 10:47:12 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> Anyway hard problems I agree - guess people will continue to prode anyway at improving things text-2 is a big step forward at least
2022-07-15 10:48:24 +0200 <maerwald[m]> Show using escaping is a smart trick when you want to e.g. print the result, because it ensures everything is in the ascii range. Search for 'commitBuffer' errors on windows.
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2022-07-15 10:49:04 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> You may be right that is it "too late" to change Show, I dunno...
2022-07-15 10:49:07 +0200 <maerwald[m]> It's possible that the new windows IO manager fixes that, but it's still not the default I think
2022-07-15 10:49:20 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2022-07-15 10:49:44 +0200jpds(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds)
2022-07-15 10:50:12 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> We have too much legacy baggage overall I feel
2022-07-15 10:50:36 +0200chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2022-07-15 10:51:30 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> At the same time people are understandably pushing back at too much change - it is really hard to manage
2022-07-15 10:51:40 +0200 <maerwald[m]> No one is interested in fixing legacy baggage unless it's completely for free and someone else does all the work for everyone
2022-07-15 10:51:47 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> Right
2022-07-15 10:52:19 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> So it doesn't get fixed
2022-07-15 10:52:53 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> I am still primarily using ghc-8.10... :-)
2022-07-15 10:53:00 +0200 <merijn> I mean Show isn't really even wrong or legacy. It's just a trade-off between safety (ensuring everything is ascii) and convenience. And Show made one specific (reasonable) trade off there
2022-07-15 10:53:37 +0200 <merijn> And now there's an influx of people who value convenience over safety and wanna change it. But is it worth breaking a whole bunch of existing code for that?
2022-07-15 10:54:05 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> Lot of interesting discussion in the ticket for sure
2022-07-15 10:54:09 +0200 <maerwald[m]> Yes, everyone loves IsString, but it's an utterly broken class interface
2022-07-15 10:54:27 +0200 <merijn> I'd be more open to a new/extra function that does "prettier" printing
2022-07-15 10:54:45 +0200 <merijn> like "showUtf8 :: Show a => a -> String" over changing show
2022-07-15 10:54:59 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> That was also suggested as an alternative
2022-07-15 10:55:12 +0200 <merijn> maerwald[m]: tbh, I argued all the OverloadedX classes should support partial conversions at runtime
2022-07-15 10:55:41 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-07-15 10:55:58 +0200 <merijn> maerwald[m]: That's why I made validated-literals in the first place. I was trying to get OverloadedX more reasonable and was told that was unnecessary and people should only write total instances >.>
2022-07-15 10:56:17 +0200 <merijn> If we had compile time errors for conversions in GHC this whole problem would be a non-issue
2022-07-15 10:57:15 +0200 <maerwald[m]> Even the Text instance is not total, in the sense that it drops information
2022-07-15 10:57:55 +0200 <merijn> maerwald[m]: What does Text drop?
2022-07-15 10:58:31 +0200 <maerwald[m]> Surrogates
2022-07-15 10:58:56 +0200 <maerwald[m]> Or rather: uses replacement char for it
2022-07-15 10:59:14 +0200 <maerwald[m]> So roundtripping with fromString wouldn't work
2022-07-15 10:59:47 +0200 <maerwald[m]> And you can't restrict IsString to a subset of Char
2022-07-15 11:00:11 +0200lambda451[m](~lambda451@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1097) (Quit: You have been kicked for being idle)
2022-07-15 11:00:17 +0200 <merijn> maerwald[m]: You can if you support partial conversions with compile time errors ;)
2022-07-15 11:00:33 +0200lambda451[m](~lambda451@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1097)
2022-07-15 11:00:34 +0200lambda451[m](~lambda451@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1097) ()
2022-07-15 11:00:53 +0200tomku(~tomku@user/tomku)
2022-07-15 11:01:05 +0200 <maerwald[m]> ByteString just truncates to a byte
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2022-07-15 11:02:23 +0200 <maerwald[m]> So your options are: use `error` and "butcher the input"
2022-07-15 11:02:57 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-21-122.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2022-07-15 11:02:58 +0200fserucas(~fserucas@1.75.114.89.rev.vodafone.pt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2022-07-15 11:04:44 +0200 <merijn> maerwald[m]: You're skipping over the context of: "I was campaigning to add support for compile time partial conversions into GHC"
2022-07-15 11:04:48 +0200 <merijn> but that idea got shot down
2022-07-15 11:05:10 +0200tomku(~tomku@user/tomku) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-15 11:05:27 +0200 <merijn> maerwald[m]: That was my entire point: We want to be able to generate compile time errors for partial conversions for the OverloadedX classes
2022-07-15 11:05:56 +0200zxx7529(~Thunderbi@user/zxx7529) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-15 11:06:54 +0200 <maerwald[m]> Yes, I think OverloadedStrings should not use IsString instance
2022-07-15 11:07:41 +0200 <maerwald[m]> And IsString instance should be restricted to Unicode scalar values or some other subset
2022-07-15 11:07:51 +0200 <maerwald[m]> Then we'd need another Char type
2022-07-15 11:09:40 +0200gensyst(gensyst@user/gensyst) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-07-15 11:10:24 +0200 <maerwald[m]> OverloadedStrings can easily behave like a TH-free quasiquoter
2022-07-15 11:10:36 +0200 <maerwald[m]> Because it's a GHC extension
2022-07-15 11:13:35 +0200 <merijn> I mean, at that point you can just deprecate IsString, since it only really exists for OverloadedStrings :p
2022-07-15 11:14:03 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
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2022-07-15 11:19:34 +0200 <maerwald[m]> merijn: i've used the class on dynamic values in the past. Because then I don't have to import lots of stuff and type T.pack
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2022-07-15 15:23:54 +0200Guest|41(~Guest|41@37-147-251-246.broadband.corbina.ru)
2022-07-15 15:24:02 +0200 <Guest|41> hello
2022-07-15 15:24:27 +0200Guest|41(~Guest|41@37-147-251-246.broadband.corbina.ru) (Client Quit)
2022-07-15 15:24:48 +0200 <geekosaur> quick visit…
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2022-07-15 15:53:31 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> merijn: Could you say more on why you say ascii is safer?
2022-07-15 15:55:07 +0200 <merijn> JensPetersen[m]: Because show (being pure) *cannot* know which encoding the output expects
2022-07-15 15:55:54 +0200 <merijn> JensPetersen[m]: Most (but far from all!) linux terminals use UTF-8, sure. But what if you're outputting to a windows terminal? MacOS terminal? A file on a system where you don't know the system encoding?
2022-07-15 15:57:04 +0200 <merijn> JensPetersen[m]: So Show maps every non ascii (maybe it's non-latin-1? not sure?) to a safe subset that you expect *any* terminal/system to handle and escape the rest
2022-07-15 15:58:52 +0200MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@2a02-a461-129d-1-6d4c-38a4-18b7-4b48.fixed6.kpn.net) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-07-15 15:59:19 +0200 <geekosaur> every non-ascii, per the Report
2022-07-15 15:59:33 +0200 <geekosaur> which is another complication
2022-07-15 15:59:48 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> geekosaur: right
2022-07-15 16:00:06 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> merijn: okay right I see thanks
2022-07-15 16:00:31 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> Sadly that does make quite some sense hmm
2022-07-15 16:01:46 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> Everything above \127 I believe yep
2022-07-15 16:02:04 +0200jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net)
2022-07-15 16:02:10 +0200 <geekosaur> in part because you don't know whether what's above \127 needs to be encoded latin-1 or utf-8
2022-07-15 16:02:14 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> @merjin
2022-07-15 16:02:14 +0200 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
2022-07-15 16:02:21 +0200 <merijn> putStrLn, for example, doesn't have this problem (which is why strings going through putStrLn look fine, but print looks escaped)
2022-07-15 16:02:27 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> oops
2022-07-15 16:02:36 +0200 <merijn> because putStrLn is in IO and checks the encoding specified by the environment and uses that
2022-07-15 16:03:32 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> merijn: I suppose I could ask Devil's advocate what if you are? You may lose 🤷‍♂️
2022-07-15 16:03:41 +0200 <merijn> Compare: putStrLn "λ"
2022-07-15 16:03:48 +0200 <merijn> And: print "λ"
2022-07-15 16:03:53 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> I see
2022-07-15 16:04:25 +0200 <JensPetersen[m]> Hmm
2022-07-15 16:04:47 +0200 <merijn> I mean, Show for String/Char is usually not what you want anyway, since it adds quotes
2022-07-15 16:05:16 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2022-07-15 16:05:37 +0200 <merijn> > text "λ"
2022-07-15 16:05:40 +0200 <lambdabot> λ
2022-07-15 16:05:46 +0200 <merijn> > text $ show "λ"
2022-07-15 16:05:47 +0200 <lambdabot> "\955"
2022-07-15 16:05:48 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:181f:21e0:9b42:e654)
2022-07-15 16:06:01 +0200 <merijn> (text just bypasses the implicit call to "show" inside lambdabot)
2022-07-15 16:07:14 +0200 <geekosaur> you could also show print vs. show in yahb2
2022-07-15 16:07:36 +0200 <geekosaur> % print "λ"
2022-07-15 16:07:36 +0200 <yahb2> "\955"
2022-07-15 16:07:42 +0200 <geekosaur> % putStrLn "λ"
2022-07-15 16:07:42 +0200 <yahb2> λ
2022-07-15 16:10:08 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-62-240-134-33.mrsn.at)
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2022-07-15 16:28:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> :t text
2022-07-15 16:28:44 +0200 <lambdabot> String -> Doc
2022-07-15 16:29:24 +0200 <geekosaur> it's from a prettyprinting combinator package, and the fact that it renders directly like that is arguably a bug — but a useful one
2022-07-15 16:30:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> I guess not a bug, because it does the same thing as usual: Show of Doc is defined to render the document, which of course doesn't escape
2022-07-15 16:30:49 +0200 <geekosaur> yes, but that's an abuse of Show
2022-07-15 16:31:20 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-07-15 16:31:37 +0200 <geekosaur> although the Report I think doesn't explicitly specify that, the expected contract is that Show instances (a) produce Haskell expressions (b) produce something acceptable to Read instances, when they exist
2022-07-15 16:32:31 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-07-15 16:32:37 +0200 <geekosaur> but that argument is essentially the same as the "Show for String should produce utf-8" argument
2022-07-15 16:37:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> "Show for String should produce utf-8" is a nonsensical statement
2022-07-15 16:37:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> `show` produces a String, which is [Char], which is encoding independent
2022-07-15 16:37:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> This doesn't discount the previous discussion about what Show on String should do, by the way
2022-07-15 16:38:56 +0200alp(~alp@user/alp) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-15 16:39:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: I agree on the expected behaviour of Show by the way
2022-07-15 16:41:58 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2022-07-15 17:04:42 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-15 17:05:51 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
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2022-07-15 17:19:23 +0200 <yin> relying on that behaviour is a big mistake
2022-07-15 17:21:03 +0200 <Athas> Relying on any Show behaviour is dubious.
2022-07-15 17:24:43 +0200coot(~coot@213.134.190.95) (Quit: coot)
2022-07-15 17:26:36 +0200wenjie(~nut@roc37-h01-176-170-197-243.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-07-15 17:27:27 +0200 <geekosaur> yet people do it
2022-07-15 17:27:53 +0200 <Athas> The next controversial library proposal should be to remove Show.
2022-07-15 17:30:45 +0200 <yin> > show (1/0 :: Double)
2022-07-15 17:30:47 +0200 <lambdabot> "Infinity"
2022-07-15 17:31:18 +0200 <Athas> > read "Infinity" :: Double
2022-07-15 17:31:19 +0200 <lambdabot> Infinity
2022-07-15 17:31:25 +0200 <Athas> Looks fine to me.
2022-07-15 17:32:07 +0200 <geekosaur> > show (0/0 :: Double)
2022-07-15 17:32:09 +0200 <lambdabot> "NaN"
2022-07-15 17:32:22 +0200 <geekosaur> > read "NaN" :: Double
2022-07-15 17:32:24 +0200 <lambdabot> NaN
2022-07-15 17:32:39 +0200 <Athas> > read "NAN" :: Double
2022-07-15 17:32:41 +0200 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
2022-07-15 17:34:11 +0200 <yin> point being, NaN and Infinity are not expressions
2022-07-15 17:34:22 +0200 <yin> @type Infinity
2022-07-15 17:34:23 +0200 <lambdabot> error: Data constructor not in scope: Infinity
2022-07-15 17:34:52 +0200 <Athas> Is that supposed to hold for Show instances?
2022-07-15 17:35:29 +0200 <geekosaur> the point of what I said earlier is it's an informal contract; the Report is annoyingly silent about it
2022-07-15 17:36:48 +0200 <yin> i would imagine that there are cases where deriving a "legal" show instance is impossible
2022-07-15 17:39:25 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:181f:21e0:9b42:e654)
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2022-07-15 18:10:44 +0200Jeanne-Kamikaze(~Jeanne-Ka@static-198-54-134-108.cust.tzulo.com)
2022-07-15 18:13:32 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-07-15 18:16:21 +0200 <qrpnxz> I don't see why it needs to be constructor. In that example (read . show = id) as expected
2022-07-15 18:17:10 +0200 <geekosaur> > M.fromList [('a',1)]
2022-07-15 18:17:13 +0200 <lambdabot> fromList [('a',1)]
2022-07-15 18:22:37 +0200ccntrq1(~Thunderbi@2a01:c23:8c0e:d00:b9c7:8deb:b374:6205)
2022-07-15 18:23:07 +0200 <dsal> That works with other letters, too:
2022-07-15 18:23:08 +0200 <dsal> > S.fromList [('a',1)]
2022-07-15 18:23:10 +0200 <lambdabot> fromList [('a',1)]
2022-07-15 18:23:14 +0200szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
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2022-07-15 18:26:20 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
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2022-07-15 18:28:50 +0200 <yin> qrpnxz: that's because read also doesn't require expressions
2022-07-15 18:29:36 +0200 <geekosaur> yeh, one thing Read can't do is tell about imports
2022-07-15 18:31:28 +0200 <geekosaur> these are things that are considered desirable, not hard rules.
2022-07-15 18:31:45 +0200 <geekosaur> being able to paste the output of show into ghci as an expression is useful
2022-07-15 18:32:03 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-07-15 18:32:09 +0200 <yin> > read "undefined"
2022-07-15 18:32:10 +0200 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
2022-07-15 18:32:16 +0200 <geekosaur> but trying to rules-lawyer it will get you nowhere because there are (sadly) no rules
2022-07-15 18:32:26 +0200 <dsal> It didn't seem like a *huge* deal for me until I started using `UTCTime` in data structures. So frustrating.
2022-07-15 18:32:30 +0200 <geekosaur> ^
2022-07-15 18:32:40 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@157-131-253-58.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-07-15 18:32:48 +0200 <geekosaur> (also that last worked, since it bottomed)
2022-07-15 18:32:58 +0200 <yin> ha!
2022-07-15 18:33:07 +0200 <geekosaur> go check the Report, there's nothing specifying *which* bottom you get
2022-07-15 18:33:38 +0200 <Rembane> > read "undefined" :: Int
2022-07-15 18:33:39 +0200 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
2022-07-15 18:33:41 +0200 <Rembane> :(
2022-07-15 18:34:03 +0200 <yin> so i raise you laziness
2022-07-15 18:34:12 +0200 <yin> > read "Just undefined"
2022-07-15 18:34:14 +0200 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
2022-07-15 18:35:30 +0200sektor[m](~sektor@2001:470:69fc:105::2:3f60) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-15 18:35:50 +0200elvishjerricco(~elvishjer@2001:470:69fc:105::6172) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-15 18:36:07 +0200 <yin> oh no wait, that would work
2022-07-15 18:36:52 +0200 <yin> Read a => a
2022-07-15 18:37:02 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@157-131-253-58.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)
2022-07-15 18:37:07 +0200 <geekosaur> read isn't required to produce lazy expressions, either. in particular its behavior with respect to self-referential values is undefined
2022-07-15 18:37:56 +0200 <yin> geekosaur: can you give an example?
2022-07-15 18:38:37 +0200 <geekosaur> not off the top of my head. but neither Show nor Read handle expressions in which you've "tied the knot"
2022-07-15 18:38:51 +0200Guest74(~Guest74@83.6.25.188.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl)
2022-07-15 18:38:59 +0200 <geekosaur> (https://wiki.haskell.org/Tying_the_Knot)
2022-07-15 18:39:15 +0200 <geekosaur> abusing laziness to achieve self-referentiality
2022-07-15 18:39:20 +0200 <merijn> eh, how about "show (repeat 1)" :p
2022-07-15 18:39:27 +0200Guest74(~Guest74@83.6.25.188.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl) (Client Quit)
2022-07-15 18:39:45 +0200 <geekosaur> but how do you phrase that as something for Read?
2022-07-15 18:40:37 +0200coot(~coot@213.134.190.95) (Quit: coot)
2022-07-15 18:40:50 +0200Guest74(~Guest74@83.6.25.188.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl)
2022-07-15 18:43:54 +0200 <yin> yeah that was my douby
2022-07-15 18:44:06 +0200 <yin> $rt
2022-07-15 18:47:53 +0200sektor[m](~sektor@2001:470:69fc:105::2:3f60)
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2022-07-15 18:49:03 +0200elvishjerricco(~elvishjer@2001:470:69fc:105::6172)
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2022-07-15 18:54:00 +0200chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-07-15 18:56:10 +0200chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
2022-07-15 18:56:38 +0200adanwan_(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2022-07-15 18:57:05 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2022-07-15 18:59:01 +0200 <tomsmeding> Read can't really be lazy because it needs to report an error on parse failure
2022-07-15 18:59:27 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d172-219-86-154.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-07-15 18:59:33 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-21-122.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2022-07-15 18:59:52 +0200ccntrq(~Thunderbi@2a01:c23:8c0e:d00:b9c7:8deb:b374:6205) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-15 19:00:10 +0200ccntrq(~Thunderbi@2a01:c23:8c0e:d00:b9c7:8deb:b374:6205)
2022-07-15 19:00:44 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-07-15 19:01:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> > take 3 $ read "[1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1🧀]" :: [Int]
2022-07-15 19:01:06 +0200 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
2022-07-15 19:02:19 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2022-07-15 19:03:50 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-21-122.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-15 19:05:10 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-15 19:05:30 +0200zaquest(~notzaques@5.130.79.72) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-15 19:06:47 +0200alp(~alp@user/alp)
2022-07-15 19:07:33 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn)
2022-07-15 19:09:59 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:181f:21e0:9b42:e654)
2022-07-15 19:10:59 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-21-122.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2022-07-15 19:12:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> Show can99,99 handle values with bottoms or loops, in a sense, in that the string it produces is usually lazy
2022-07-15 19:12:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> > take 20 $ show (replicate 10 2 ++ [undefined])
2022-07-15 19:12:31 +0200 <lambdabot> "[2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2"
2022-07-15 19:14:22 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:181f:21e0:9b42:e654) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-07-15 19:14:30 +0200lottaquestions(~nick@2604:3d08:7a79:1d00:8361:4a5e:36f7:ad4f) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2022-07-15 19:24:17 +0200Guest66(~Guest66@79.97.193.58)
2022-07-15 19:24:39 +0200vpan(~0@212.117.1.172) (Quit: Leaving.)
2022-07-15 19:25:11 +0200 <pavonia> tomsmeding: Nor sure if my or your client is wrong here, but whenever you use italics text, the rest of the line is green text on green background for me :o
2022-07-15 19:25:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> ._. does anybody else have that?
2022-07-15 19:25:41 +0200 <geekosaur> worked here
2022-07-15 19:26:00 +0200 <geekosaur> does this work for you, pavonia?
2022-07-15 19:26:13 +0200 <pavonia> geekosaur: Yes
2022-07-15 19:26:48 +0200 <tomsmeding> Hm it seems (looking in ircbrowse) that Revolution IRC (android) does send some wacky stuff
2022-07-15 19:27:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> Perhaps some reset-colour-to-default thing?
2022-07-15 19:27:21 +0200Guest66(~Guest66@79.97.193.58) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-15 19:27:33 +0200Guest66(~Guest66@79.97.193.58)
2022-07-15 19:27:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> pavonia: there might be some unnecessary codes there but it looks a bit like your client is the one that's off
2022-07-15 19:27:44 +0200 <__monty__> I thought italics wasn't part of the (m)IRC protocol? Just bold and colors and maybe underline?
2022-07-15 19:27:58 +0200yax__(~yax__@user/yax/x-9576643)
2022-07-15 19:28:25 +0200 <Rembane> I hope that marquee is!
2022-07-15 19:28:43 +0200 <pavonia> tomsmeding: Hhm, okay
2022-07-15 19:28:52 +0200 <tomsmeding> https://modern.ircdocs.horse/formatting.html#italics
2022-07-15 19:29:41 +0200mbuf(~Shakthi@122.165.55.71) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-07-15 19:29:42 +0200amonowy(uid560952@id-560952.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2022-07-15 19:29:43 +0200 <geekosaur> https://www.mirc.com/help/html/index.html?control_codes.html seems to think it's from mirc
2022-07-15 19:30:01 +0200jespada(~jespada@200.123.141.222)
2022-07-15 19:30:23 +0200 <yin> isn't that just convention and not part of irc?
2022-07-15 19:30:47 +0200 <monochrom> Which IRC? >:)
2022-07-15 19:30:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> pavonia: seems I'm sending 1D for italics, 0F 03 "99,99" for reset
2022-07-15 19:31:03 +0200 <monochrom> or rather whose
2022-07-15 19:31:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> 03 "99,99" is default colours according to the page I sent
2022-07-15 19:31:50 +0200 <Franciman> I'm curious about the specs the computers you run ghc on have
2022-07-15 19:32:16 +0200Guest66(~Guest66@79.97.193.58) (Client Quit)
2022-07-15 19:32:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> Wtf revolution irc? 0x0F is indeed reset, you don't need to reset the colours to default afterwards!
2022-07-15 19:32:22 +0200 <pavonia> tomsmeding: Ah thanks, I will patch my client then
2022-07-15 19:32:28 +0200 <yin> this one? https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1459
2022-07-15 19:32:42 +0200yax__(~yax__@user/yax/x-9576643) (Quit: Iridium IRC Client)
2022-07-15 19:32:46 +0200 <Franciman> i was trying it on a intel core 2 duo from uhm like ~2008, with 4gb ram, and the pc got a bit stressed on a small sized cabal project like vabal
2022-07-15 19:32:48 +0200 <geekosaur> yin, that would be why we've been calling them mirc codes. (mirc is a client for Windows) they've become a de facto standard for formatting
2022-07-15 19:33:02 +0200 <yin> i see
2022-07-15 19:33:06 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-07-15 19:33:07 +0200 <Franciman> but otherwise it works quite alrighto
2022-07-15 19:33:20 +0200 <monochrom> Does even libera's server software strictly conform to RFC1459?
2022-07-15 19:33:42 +0200 <geekosaur> rfc1459 supports extensions, including nonstandard ones
2022-07-15 19:33:45 +0200 <monochrom> Right? Last I heard every IRC network uses server software that adds their own extensions.
2022-07-15 19:33:54 +0200 <yin> monochrom: i hear a lot of talk about IRCv3 on #libera
2022-07-15 19:34:00 +0200 <monochrom> I mean is DCC even in RFC1459?
2022-07-15 19:34:03 +0200 <geekosaur> I get 3 lines of extensions listed when I connect, several of which atr tagged as specific to the solanum server
2022-07-15 19:34:19 +0200 <geekosaur> *are tagged
2022-07-15 19:35:16 +0200 <geekosaur> oh, sorry, the tagged one are capabilities, not extensions
2022-07-15 19:35:19 +0200 <yin> anyways, i just get inverted colors on my terminal client when you do italics
2022-07-15 19:36:11 +0200 <yin> i usually use _underline_ and *bold* and most clients stylize it one way or another
2022-07-15 19:36:37 +0200 <monochrom> "is that just convention or... oh right"
2022-07-15 19:37:06 +0200 <monochrom> It's always only conventions.
2022-07-15 19:37:11 +0200 <geekosaur> in any case, the server knows nothing about any of this, it just relays what it's given. clients interpret the codes
2022-07-15 19:37:58 +0200 <geekosaur> (there is a channel mode to strip them, but it just strips all control codes, it still doesn't know what they do)
2022-07-15 19:38:38 +0200 <monochrom> I imposed that channel mode for a little while >:)
2022-07-15 19:38:52 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2022-07-15 19:39:36 +0200 <geekosaur> better yet, there's no definition anywhere of how color controls work, meaning you're at the mercy of random clients if you use single digit colors, or color codes followed by digits, etc.
2022-07-15 19:39:56 +0200 <yin> hence _underline_ and *bold*, everyone[citation needed] will understand it
2022-07-15 19:40:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> Hm, I've found the issue (?) in my mobile client's source: it thinks it must always set the colour to _something_ after a formatting reset code
2022-07-15 19:40:18 +0200 <monochrom> Actually I didn't understand _ or * for two months.
2022-07-15 19:40:40 +0200 <monochrom> Especially *
2022-07-15 19:40:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> Heh, look at me using _ for italics
2022-07-15 19:41:22 +0200 <yin> irssi underlines your italics
2022-07-15 19:41:39 +0200fserucas(~fserucas@166.65.114.89.rev.vodafone.pt) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-07-15 19:41:59 +0200 <yin> so does Textual
2022-07-15 19:42:25 +0200econo(uid147250@user/econo)
2022-07-15 19:42:42 +0200 <monochrom> Is this a pissing war on how many clients use the same "non"-"standard" "convention" as yours?
2022-07-15 19:43:02 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-15 19:43:09 +0200 <yin> yes :D
2022-07-15 19:43:35 +0200 <__monty__> yin: You might not be getting italics then because not all terminals and fonts support italics.
2022-07-15 19:43:47 +0200 <yin> this is a (show . read = id) problem
2022-07-15 19:43:47 +0200merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-023.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-07-15 19:44:17 +0200 <yin> __monty__: i _know_ that's why i'm not getting italics!
2022-07-15 19:44:43 +0200 <__monty__> I'm not getting any italics either though and my terminal and font do support it.
2022-07-15 19:45:09 +0200 <__monty__> So I think Irssi may not adhere to that particular convention?
2022-07-15 19:45:34 +0200nek0(~nek0@2a01:4f8:222:2b41::12) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2022-07-15 19:45:37 +0200 <yin> also there's that
2022-07-15 19:45:39 +0200 <monochrom> Although, I somehow suspected that italics are not as common as bold, so I avoided italics, while I feel free to use bold when I really want bold.
2022-07-15 19:45:50 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-62-240-134-33.mrsn.at)
2022-07-15 19:46:10 +0200 <tomsmeding> Up to and including Mountain Lion or something, the macos built-in terminal app didn't even support italics at all
2022-07-15 19:46:32 +0200kaskal(~kaskal@089144220061.atnat0029.highway.webapn.at) (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
2022-07-15 19:46:46 +0200 <yin> __monty__: i bet even your nick is confusing some clients
2022-07-15 19:46:58 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-15 19:47:06 +0200 <monochrom> haha
2022-07-15 19:47:18 +0200adanwan(~adanwan@gateway/tor-sasl/adanwan)
2022-07-15 19:47:20 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-07-15 19:47:29 +0200 <yin> tomsmeding: wasn't Terminal basically iTerm at that point?
2022-07-15 19:47:30 +0200alp(~alp@user/alp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-15 19:47:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> If so that would be a bug :p
2022-07-15 19:47:34 +0200 <geekosaur> apparently you have to enable them in irssi
2022-07-15 19:47:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> yin: Terminal and iTerm2 are completely different things by completely different authors
2022-07-15 19:48:10 +0200 <tomsmeding> I don't know anything about iTerm(1) if that ever existed
2022-07-15 19:48:22 +0200 <geekosaur> it did
2022-07-15 19:49:30 +0200 <geekosaur> there was iTerm, then it went silent and someone forked it to make iTerm2, then that went silent and someone forked it to make iTerm, then that renamed itself back to iTerm2 with the blessing of the original iTerm2 forker/author
2022-07-15 19:49:50 +0200 <yin> not confusing at all
2022-07-15 19:50:22 +0200 <monochrom> haha that's epic
2022-07-15 19:50:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> Lol I had no idea
2022-07-15 19:50:42 +0200 <monochrom> The iTerm of Theseus.
2022-07-15 19:51:02 +0200 <yin> well in my mind i had some recollection from ~20yrs ago that Terminal was based on iTerm
2022-07-15 19:51:13 +0200 <yin> or maybe xTerm? but that doesn't seem right
2022-07-15 19:51:26 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@157-131-253-58.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)
2022-07-15 19:51:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> Terminal is an apple thing, so I would highly doubt it being based on something written by a non-apple person
2022-07-15 19:51:37 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2022-07-15 19:51:50 +0200 <geekosaur> neither although it's su[pposed to be xterm compatible. that said it's based on next's terminal
2022-07-15 19:51:59 +0200 <yin> lol most apple things are based on something written by non-apple people :p
2022-07-15 19:52:05 +0200 <tomsmeding> (this is all recollection for me too, I've been using linux for a couple years at this point)
2022-07-15 19:52:19 +0200kaskal(~kaskal@089144220061.atnat0029.highway.webapn.at)
2022-07-15 19:53:01 +0200 <geekosaur> remember that steve jobs came from next, he just recycled most of next's stuff replacing display postscript with what amounted to display pdf
2022-07-15 19:53:04 +0200 <monochrom> I'm somewhat grateful that I didn't have money for a macbook actually
2022-07-15 19:53:58 +0200 <yin> tbf apple's terminal is a pretty good emulator
2022-07-15 19:54:35 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2022-07-15 19:55:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> Sure, but if apple assimilates some distinctiveness into its own, surely the result is not available for forking into iTerm2 anymore? :P
2022-07-15 19:55:11 +0200 <__monty__> Display PostScript/PDF?
2022-07-15 19:55:26 +0200 <yin> tomsmeding: i would bet on that
2022-07-15 19:57:50 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@157-131-253-58.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-15 19:57:58 +0200 <__monty__> geekosaur: The Irssi setting is for rendering this style of /italics/. Not the mIRC format code.
2022-07-15 19:58:26 +0200 <__monty__> Not enabling that because it seems like it might be triggered by paths.
2022-07-15 19:58:38 +0200 <yin> yeah was about to point that out
2022-07-15 19:59:18 +0200 <monochrom> Solution: Use \italics\
2022-07-15 19:59:33 +0200 <yin> windows' paths
2022-07-15 20:01:57 +0200 <yin> apparently irc sends clear text and it's up to each client to interpret the encoding, as "there is no support of encoding by the protocol"
2022-07-15 20:01:58 +0200 <__monty__> monochrom: You monster, italics don't lean that way.
2022-07-15 20:02:08 +0200 <yin> i think they're trying to solve that in v3
2022-07-15 20:02:37 +0200 <Franciman> why is it called italics and not cursive?
2022-07-15 20:02:55 +0200 <Franciman> ah maybe you mean something idfferent by cursive
2022-07-15 20:03:07 +0200 <Rembane> I prefer |straight italics|
2022-07-15 20:03:25 +0200mixfix41(~sdenynine@user/mixfix41) (Quit: loggin off chao)
2022-07-15 20:03:33 +0200 <geekosaur> it's surprising how bad that usually looks
2022-07-15 20:03:41 +0200geekosaurremembers that one from the metafont book
2022-07-15 20:04:03 +0200PiDelport(uid25146@id-25146.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2022-07-15 20:04:07 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2022-07-15 20:04:24 +0200 <monochrom> tail-cursive italics
2022-07-15 20:04:33 +0200alp(~alp@user/alp)
2022-07-15 20:04:58 +0200 <yin> Franciman: italics comes from the fact that the man who popularized writing it that way (leaning) was italian
2022-07-15 20:05:21 +0200 <yin> cursive comes from cursus, meaning path. the path the ink makes when writing by hand
2022-07-15 20:05:33 +0200 <yin> two different things
2022-07-15 20:06:21 +0200 <yin> (course would be a more obvious english translation than path :p)
2022-07-15 20:06:31 +0200Cale(~cale@cpef48e38ee8583-cm30b7d4b3fc20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
2022-07-15 20:07:01 +0200 <geekosaur> ought to be called meander instead :þ
2022-07-15 20:07:25 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-07-15 20:07:53 +0200chele(~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-15 20:07:53 +0200 <yin> "stroke" according to my handwriting
2022-07-15 20:11:02 +0200shailangsa(~shailangs@host109-152-9-231.range109-152.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-07-15 20:12:20 +0200jinsun(~jinsun@user/jinsun) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-15 20:15:15 +0200merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-023.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
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2022-07-15 20:23:25 +0200 <darkling> "squiggle", named after the tree-dwelling rodents...
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2022-07-15 22:13:36 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-46-226.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2022-07-15 22:14:07 +0200Jeanne-Kamikaze(~Jeanne-Ka@static-198-54-134-108.cust.tzulo.com) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-07-15 22:15:44 +0200matijja(~matijja@193.77.181.201) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2022-07-15 22:15:54 +0200haritz(~hrtz@82-69-11-11.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk)
2022-07-15 22:15:54 +0200haritz(~hrtz@82-69-11-11.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) (Changing host)
2022-07-15 22:15:54 +0200haritz(~hrtz@user/haritz)
2022-07-15 22:16:55 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2022-07-15 22:17:25 +0200matijja(~matijja@193.77.181.201)
2022-07-15 22:18:19 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-46-226.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-07-15 22:20:08 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-07-15 22:21:52 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d172-219-86-154.abhsia.telus.net)
2022-07-15 22:25:15 +0200img(~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2022-07-15 22:27:49 +0200sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10)
2022-07-15 22:28:06 +0200sammelweis_(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-15 22:28:08 +0200img(~img@user/img)
2022-07-15 22:31:30 +0200merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-023.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-15 22:32:25 +0200christiansen(~christian@83-95-137-75-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-07-15 22:34:09 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@157-131-253-58.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-07-15 22:37:01 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2022-07-15 22:38:31 +0200takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-15 22:39:06 +0200ccntrq(~Thunderbi@2a01:c23:8c0e:d00:b9c7:8deb:b374:6205) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-15 22:48:46 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91)
2022-07-15 22:53:22 +0200dsp(~dsp@cpc152107-haye27-2-0-cust227.17-4.cable.virginm.net)
2022-07-15 22:58:50 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@157-131-253-58.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)
2022-07-15 22:59:42 +0200_ht(~quassel@231-169-21-31.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-15 23:02:12 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-07-15 23:03:17 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-07-15 23:06:50 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-15 23:12:30 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-15 23:17:10 +0200dsp(~dsp@cpc152107-haye27-2-0-cust227.17-4.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-15 23:18:04 +0200mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-15 23:18:51 +0200pgass(~pg@190.247.245.154) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-15 23:19:30 +0200alp(~alp@user/alp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-15 23:20:23 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-07-15 23:21:29 +0200wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
2022-07-15 23:21:46 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-07-15 23:25:50 +0200mstksg(~jle`@cpe-23-240-75-236.socal.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-15 23:27:28 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-07-15 23:28:08 +0200mstksg(~jle`@cpe-23-240-75-236.socal.res.rr.com)
2022-07-15 23:29:35 +0200zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-07-15 23:35:38 +0200alp(~alp@user/alp)
2022-07-15 23:42:25 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e70586618de76952f976022e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-07-15 23:43:56 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2022-07-15 23:52:59 +0200matthewmosior(~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-07-15 23:55:25 +0200Katarushisu(~Katarushi@cpc147334-finc20-2-0-cust27.4-2.cable.virginm.net)
2022-07-15 23:57:28 +0200thatcher(lp0@heathens.club) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2022-07-15 23:58:06 +0200thatcher(lp0@heathens.club)
2022-07-15 23:59:03 +0200zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag)