IRCBrowse

2022/07/04

2022-07-04 00:01:48 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
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2022-07-04 00:53:11 +0200sunarch(sid526836@user/sunarch) ()
2022-07-04 00:53:42 +0200sunarch(sid526836@user/sunarch)
2022-07-04 00:55:12 +0200is7s(~is7s@2a01:4b00:895f:3d00:7d21:5e77:2c62:7a18) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-07-04 01:02:25 +0200slaydr_(~slaydr@75.164.63.238) (Leaving)
2022-07-04 01:02:31 +0200jao(~jao@guest2.nyenrode.nl)
2022-07-04 01:12:54 +0200acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@dynamic-046-114-168-149.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-07-04 01:16:31 +0200 <hololeap> monochrom: btw, I did manage to write that parser using megaparsec: https://github.com/hololeap/cabal-portage/blob/main/portage-hs/src/Distribution/Portage/Types/Inte…
2022-07-04 01:17:13 +0200 <hololeap> it does have an imperative/"choose your adventure" kinda feel to it
2022-07-04 01:17:27 +0200is7s(~is7s@2a01:4b00:895f:3d00:7d21:5e77:2c62:7a18)
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2022-07-04 01:28:20 +0200henninb(~henninb@63-231-187-148.mpls.qwest.net)
2022-07-04 01:28:41 +0200 <monochrom> heh
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2022-07-04 03:53:05 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
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2022-07-04 04:03:55 +0200lemonsnicks(~lemonsnic@cpc159519-perr18-2-0-cust114.19-1.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
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2022-07-04 05:05:14 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@135-180-3-34.static.sonic.net)
2022-07-04 05:05:41 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> please feel free to mark this as offtopic, but i know you folks do some ml/statistics type work, and this is relevant to algebraic constructions as well:
2022-07-04 05:06:10 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i was doing some coding to calculate the entropy of something and accidentally defined the "vector entropy"
2022-07-04 05:06:36 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i can't find "vector entropy" defined in the literature or anywhere else, and it is simply the contribution of each outcome to the total entropy
2022-07-04 05:07:24 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> that is to say that if you have some event probabilities p_i, conventionally you talk about the (scalar) total entropy - sum p_i*log(p_i)
2022-07-04 05:07:58 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and i am using the vector entropy to be e_i = -p_i*log(p_i) (no sum)
2022-07-04 05:09:29 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> anyway so my question is, does this have a name somewhere
2022-07-04 05:09:35 +0200vandit(~vandit@84-236-40-211.pool.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-07-04 05:10:05 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i kinda think that the vector entropy should have some nice properties as compared to an ordinary vector of probabilities
2022-07-04 05:11:11 +0200vandit(~vandit@84-236-60-90.pool.digikabel.hu)
2022-07-04 05:15:36 +0200 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i think this is maybe re-defining entropy here as a functor... and now i am finding a few search results on that but still don't have a clear picture
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2022-07-04 11:26:39 +0200davidOhNo(~davidOhNo@d24-150-176-203.home.cgocable.net)
2022-07-04 11:27:08 +0200 <davidOhNo> hello. is this the channel where haskell beginners can ask stupid questions when we run into confusion?
2022-07-04 11:28:23 +0200atwm(~atwm@212-147-33-101.fix.access.vtx.ch)
2022-07-04 11:29:03 +0200kuribas(~user@silversquare.silversquare.eu)
2022-07-04 11:29:53 +0200 <yushyin> yes, ask away, someone will answer eventually
2022-07-04 11:30:11 +0200 <davidOhNo> oh, i just saw ten seconds ago that there is a #haskell-beginners channel somewhere, too
2022-07-04 11:30:18 +0200 <davidOhNo> maybe i should be in that chatroom instead?
2022-07-04 11:30:30 +0200alp(~alp@user/alp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-04 11:30:47 +0200 <davidOhNo> (oh wait, haskell-beginners is a mailing list, not a chatroom)
2022-07-04 11:31:49 +0200 <davidOhNo> i am going through the Haskell wikibook. in section 14.1.5 , there is an example that is my first encounter with an "unnamed function".
2022-07-04 11:31:53 +0200 <davidOhNo> the line looks like:
2022-07-04 11:32:10 +0200vandit(~vandit@92-249-193-162.pool.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 11:32:15 +0200 <davidOhNo> echoes = foldr (\ x xs -> (replicate x x) ++ xs) []
2022-07-04 11:32:17 +0200 <yushyin> davidOhNo: you can ask in both channels, sometimes this channel has a lot of traffic and your question can then sometimes get lost. -beginners is a more low-traffic channel
2022-07-04 11:32:37 +0200 <davidOhNo> and i got a little worried because there is no type signature!
2022-07-04 11:32:43 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-22-150.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2022-07-04 11:32:46 +0200 <davidOhNo> (ie no type signature for the unnamed function)
2022-07-04 11:33:01 +0200 <yushyin> however, it is perfectly ok to ask beginner questions here
2022-07-04 11:33:13 +0200 <davidOhNo> so my questions are 1) is there a way for a Haskell programmer to add a type signature to an unnamed function?
2022-07-04 11:33:16 +0200 <davidOhNo> and 2)
2022-07-04 11:33:27 +0200 <merijn> davidOhNo: Yes, but it's a bit inconvenient
2022-07-04 11:33:40 +0200 <merijn> > (\x -> x) True
2022-07-04 11:33:42 +0200 <lambdabot> True
2022-07-04 11:33:51 +0200 <merijn> > ((\x -> x) :: Int -> Int) True
2022-07-04 11:33:53 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2022-07-04 11:33:53 +0200 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Int’ with actual type ‘Bool’
2022-07-04 11:33:53 +0200 <lambdabot> • In the first argument of ‘(\ x -> x) :: Int -> Int’, namely
2022-07-04 11:33:56 +0200 <merijn> > ((\x -> x) :: Int -> Int) 5
2022-07-04 11:33:57 +0200 <lambdabot> 5
2022-07-04 11:34:07 +0200vandit(~vandit@193-226-233-54.pool.digikabel.hu)
2022-07-04 11:34:22 +0200dknite(~dknite@49.37.45.188)
2022-07-04 11:34:23 +0200 <davidOhNo> when a programmer sees an unnamed function like the one i typed out, is it really true that they have to look at the function definition in order to make a guess of what the type signature is?
2022-07-04 11:34:39 +0200 <davidOhNo> that is, i'm guessing xs has to be a list, because, um .. maybe ++ only works for lists?
2022-07-04 11:35:06 +0200 <merijn> davidOhNo: yeah
2022-07-04 11:35:19 +0200 <merijn> (for both questions ;))
2022-07-04 11:35:34 +0200 <davidOhNo> oh wow. my poor brain.
2022-07-04 11:35:40 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:12be:accf:d6c3:d87:7820)
2022-07-04 11:35:49 +0200 <davidOhNo> my brain feels like it's already melting when i'm given the type signature, haha.
2022-07-04 11:36:02 +0200 <merijn> in practice unnamed functions that aren't trivial are fairly rare
2022-07-04 11:36:07 +0200 <davidOhNo> ok, what can i google to find out how to give a type signature when writing out an anonymous function?
2022-07-04 11:36:18 +0200 <davidOhNo> (i tried googling it but i failed)
2022-07-04 11:36:39 +0200 <merijn> davidOhNo: Realistically, the easiest solution was "turn it into a named function and add a type to that" (that's what I would do(
2022-07-04 11:36:48 +0200 <dknite> If you have to put a type signature on an unnamed function, its time to name it :)
2022-07-04 11:36:59 +0200 <merijn> davidOhNo: You can simply add parentheses with a type annotation like I did a few lines back
2022-07-04 11:37:10 +0200 <merijn> but I wouldn't generally consider doing that
2022-07-04 11:37:10 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-22-150.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 11:37:17 +0200 <davidOhNo> merijn: oh sorry, i didn't know that a response! i'll read it now.
2022-07-04 11:37:29 +0200 <dknite> Unnamed functions work well only with really simply functions
2022-07-04 11:37:31 +0200atwm(~atwm@212-147-33-101.fix.access.vtx.ch) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-07-04 11:38:21 +0200 <davidOhNo> ah, i see. it doesn't seem messy at all, actually
2022-07-04 11:38:39 +0200 <davidOhNo> dknite: what is "simple" to the writer might not be so "simple" to a beginner ;)
2022-07-04 11:38:55 +0200 <davidOhNo> certainly, the example in the wikibook that they gave for the first introduction to unnamed functions .. wasn't so simple for me.
2022-07-04 11:39:34 +0200 <Lears> davidOhNo: an anonymous function is generally an argument to another function (like foldr here). That being the case, you can focus on the type of foldr, which contains the type of the function it expects (in its most general form).
2022-07-04 11:39:40 +0200 <davidOhNo> [actually, the book just threw the concept in, as if it would be trivial to understand, when talking about a /different/ and new concept. it's so hard for dummies like me to keep up, when textbooks introduce more than one concept at a time...]
2022-07-04 11:40:36 +0200 <dknite> davidOhNo: I'd say that if you're new to Haskell, then "Learn You a Haskell" (http://learnyouahaskell.com/chapters) is better for learning
2022-07-04 11:40:40 +0200 <davidOhNo> @Lears: oh, that does make some sense, for at least to help me see what the "rightmost" type would be in the type signature of the unnamed function.
2022-07-04 11:40:40 +0200 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
2022-07-04 11:40:44 +0200 <dknite> The wikibook is a bit terse
2022-07-04 11:40:54 +0200 <davidOhNo> Lears: oh, that does make some sense, for at least to help me see what the "rightmost" type would be in the type signature of the unnamed function.
2022-07-04 11:41:10 +0200 <davidOhNo> i also notice you all are calling it an "anonymous function", while the book is calling it an "unnamed function".
2022-07-04 11:41:23 +0200 <Lears> They're synonyms.
2022-07-04 11:41:26 +0200 <davidOhNo> [i find the wikibook a /lot/ more easy to understand than Haskell From First Principles, though, which i'm kind of sad i bought]
2022-07-04 11:42:10 +0200 <davidOhNo> i wonder if the wikibook is still open to taking suggestions for edits. i do mostly like their organization, but there are a few places where programming jargon, or even unusual English words, make it hard to understand.
2022-07-04 11:42:19 +0200 <davidOhNo> (ie, hard to understand for someone who has never done programming in their life)
2022-07-04 11:42:30 +0200 <davidOhNo> the recursion section took me a while to understand, for example, haha
2022-07-04 11:45:48 +0200 <davidOhNo> thanks for your help everyone. bye.
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2022-07-04 12:11:35 +0200 <sm> isn't it editable ?
2022-07-04 12:11:50 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.102.174) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 12:12:20 +0200 <sm> ..yes, go for it !
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2022-07-04 12:19:38 +0200 <kuribas> most haskell material assumes some other programming knowledge.
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2022-07-04 13:00:24 +0200 <Profpatsch> I’m searching for a Constraint IsElem (e :: k) (ls :: '[k])
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2022-07-04 13:44:56 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
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2022-07-04 14:03:01 +0200NaturalNumber(~monadam@137.229.82.64)
2022-07-04 14:03:08 +0200NaturalNumber123(~monadam@137.229.82.64)
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2022-07-04 14:04:49 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-07-04 14:05:39 +0200 <NaturalNumber123> does anyone have any advice for installing emacs with native compilation?
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2022-07-04 14:08:01 +0200 <NaturalNumber123> oops, i now see that the emacswiki recommends a channel.
2022-07-04 14:08:49 +0200`2jt(~jtomas@141.red-88-17-65.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
2022-07-04 14:09:28 +0200 <geekosaur> was wondering. last time I installed emacs compiling it myself was 1988 >.>
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2022-07-04 14:15:09 +0200 <Axman6> Profpatsch: it;'s pretty easy to wright - I'm sure there's agood library which provides it but I can never remember what it or they are
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2022-07-04 14:15:57 +0200NN123(~monadam@137.229.82.64)
2022-07-04 14:16:36 +0200 <Axman6> write even
2022-07-04 14:16:47 +0200 <Axman6> shouldn't IRC after cocktails
2022-07-04 14:17:38 +0200 <merijn> That's one of the best times :p
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2022-07-04 14:20:53 +0200 <Profpatsch> Axman6: I found one in HList, but it’s too much over my head
2022-07-04 14:21:06 +0200 <Profpatsch> I noticed I actually want to have some values as well, not just a list of Symbol
2022-07-04 14:21:24 +0200 <Profpatsch> So what I’m gonna do is just (ab)use the type level list stuff from superrecord
2022-07-04 14:21:44 +0200 <Profpatsch> And have all the value level primitives be `undefined`
2022-07-04 14:21:49 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-62-240-134-178.mrsn.at)
2022-07-04 14:22:10 +0200 <Profpatsch> (I just need it for having a list of permissions on the type level, for a capability-inspired system)
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2022-07-04 14:33:18 +0200 <mon_aaraj> I'm having an issue with the sdl2 bindings in haskell. I'm trying to 1. paint a different background color 2. introduce a sprite using sdl2_image. The issue is that the result I'm getting is kind of a seizure generator. So, be warned. Compiling and running this code could result in epilepsy https://bpa.st/GNDQ
2022-07-04 14:34:25 +0200 <mon_aaraj> What this does is first, set the background to be blue; secondly, it puts in the breaker.png image.. the issue is that when it puts the image, the background becomes black again. And then the background is set to blue, then the breaker.png with a black bg; and it repeats.
2022-07-04 14:35:13 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
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2022-07-04 14:36:40 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Excess Flood)
2022-07-04 14:36:46 +0200 <merijn> mon_aaraj: Quickly going over the SDL graphics it looks like you're asking it to "blank the screen", then immediately render an image, then loop back
2022-07-04 14:36:54 +0200 <merijn> Which, uh, sounds like a seizure generator, sure
2022-07-04 14:37:00 +0200 <merijn> So "don't do that then"?
2022-07-04 14:37:06 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
2022-07-04 14:37:47 +0200 <mon_aaraj> well, i assume by "blank the screen", you mean the "clear renderer" function; but if I don't call that, then the background color is never printed
2022-07-04 14:37:55 +0200 <mon_aaraj> how else would i paint the bg color?
2022-07-04 14:38:07 +0200 <merijn> mon_aaraj: present docs say: "Update the screen with any rendering performed since the previous call."
2022-07-04 14:38:20 +0200 <merijn> mon_aaraj: So present is rendering the freshly cleared screen
2022-07-04 14:38:27 +0200 <merijn> And then you add an image an render that too
2022-07-04 14:38:38 +0200atwm(~atwm@212-147-33-101.fix.access.vtx.ch)
2022-07-04 14:38:47 +0200toluene0(~toluene@user/toulene) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2022-07-04 14:38:48 +0200 <merijn> so you're updating to a completely blank, coloured background, rendering that, *then* rendering an image
2022-07-04 14:39:05 +0200 <merijn> Which sounds (to me like) "alternating between showing an image and a blank screen every other frame"
2022-07-04 14:39:22 +0200 <mon_aaraj> so you're saying i need to `present renderer` after putting the image onto the screen?
2022-07-04 14:39:37 +0200NaturalNumber(~monadam@137.229.82.64) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-04 14:39:37 +0200NN123(~monadam@137.229.82.64) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-04 14:39:42 +0200 <merijn> I haven't read the docs in enough detail to know the correct answer
2022-07-04 14:39:49 +0200 <merijn> but my intuition says "yes"
2022-07-04 14:40:07 +0200 <mon_aaraj> yeah, figured as much. because i already tried `present renderer` *after* drawing the image, which provides the exact same result
2022-07-04 14:40:18 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-04 14:40:19 +0200toluene(~toluene@user/toulene)
2022-07-04 14:40:38 +0200 <mon_aaraj> here's the code where the line is moved: https://bpa.st/WDHA
2022-07-04 14:41:02 +0200 <mon_aaraj> i in-fact moved my code a lot, not one combination made it any better
2022-07-04 14:41:12 +0200 <merijn> But also, that seems...a very tight loop for rendering
2022-07-04 14:42:47 +0200 <mon_aaraj> how do you mean?
2022-07-04 14:43:22 +0200 <merijn> mon_aaraj: The recursion in appLoop *immediately* redoes the rendering you just did
2022-07-04 14:43:27 +0200 <merijn> That...sounds wrong :)
2022-07-04 14:44:01 +0200 <mon_aaraj> yes, because if i don't run it as a loop the window will close immediately
2022-07-04 14:44:48 +0200 <mon_aaraj> which i could add a delay like.. im not sure, of 10 seconds by default? but generally an apploop seems like a better way to do things, in my very unexperienced and likely incorrect opinion
2022-07-04 14:45:03 +0200 <mon_aaraj> but if you do have any ideas, i'll be very thankful if you do tell
2022-07-04 14:46:01 +0200 <merijn> I mean, it's not wrong to loop. But you'd ideally wait until you actually have to change something :p
2022-07-04 14:46:21 +0200 <merijn> Redrawing the same picture "as fast as your CPU will allow" is generally "suboptimal" ;)
2022-07-04 14:46:42 +0200 <mon_aaraj> yep, i know! this isn't exactly production quality software currently
2022-07-04 14:46:46 +0200 <merijn> You'd normally sleep until something needs updating
2022-07-04 14:46:59 +0200 <mon_aaraj> it's just me trying things the easy way until i get how this works
2022-07-04 14:47:20 +0200 <merijn> If you add a "threadDelay 10e9" before the recursion, does it still turn into a seizure generator? :p
2022-07-04 14:47:36 +0200 <mon_aaraj> a very slow one, but that doesn't solve the problem either way..
2022-07-04 14:47:44 +0200 <merijn> hmm
2022-07-04 14:49:50 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@135-180-3-34.static.sonic.net)
2022-07-04 14:53:49 +0200 <mon_aaraj> would you happen to know any place to get help with GUI things in haskell?
2022-07-04 14:54:36 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@135-180-3-34.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2022-07-04 15:04:00 +0200mjs2600(~mjs2600@c-24-91-3-49.hsd1.vt.comcast.net) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2022-07-04 15:05:35 +0200mjs2600(~mjs2600@c-24-91-3-49.hsd1.vt.comcast.net)
2022-07-04 15:07:18 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.102.174) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-07-04 15:07:30 +0200Guest27(~Guest27@h-98-128-228-171.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
2022-07-04 15:08:29 +0200 <Guest27> Hey! I recently wrote a simple hangman game in Haskell (https://codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/277633/hangman-game-in-haskell-written-using-a-stat…) but wasn't very pleased with how it looked. Has anybody tried using Denotational Design when creating a project? Would it benefit me?
2022-07-04 15:12:26 +0200AlexZenon(~alzenon@178.34.160.206)
2022-07-04 15:12:56 +0200AlexNoo(~AlexNoo@178.34.160.206)
2022-07-04 15:14:20 +0200Alex_test(~al_test@178.34.160.206)
2022-07-04 15:21:34 +0200Guest2776(~Guest27@h-98-128-228-171.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
2022-07-04 15:21:41 +0200Guest2776(~Guest27@h-98-128-228-171.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Client Quit)
2022-07-04 15:29:27 +0200surobaki(~surobaki@user/surobaki)
2022-07-04 15:33:19 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-62-240-134-178.mrsn.at) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-07-04 15:35:02 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@d5331k9bbn7t3s8-n-k-4.rev.dnainternet.fi)
2022-07-04 15:41:43 +0200 <Profpatsch> Hrm, now I have a way of passing an open record of permissions as a constraint, but GHC thinks it’s a redundant constraint
2022-07-04 15:41:54 +0200 <Profpatsch> Which is bad if you really want the permissions to exist :)
2022-07-04 15:43:54 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@135-180-3-34.static.sonic.net)
2022-07-04 15:47:58 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@135-180-3-34.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 15:51:07 +0200dknite(~dknite@49.37.45.188)
2022-07-04 15:55:58 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:c881:8121:4ac3:5267)
2022-07-04 15:57:50 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-62-240-134-178.mrsn.at)
2022-07-04 15:57:52 +0200Guest27(~Guest27@h-98-128-228-171.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-04 15:59:36 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@d5331k9bbn7t3s8-n-k-4.rev.dnainternet.fi) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-04 16:00:21 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@dynamic-046-114-168-070.46.114.pool.telefonica.de)
2022-07-04 16:00:42 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:c881:8121:4ac3:5267) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-07-04 16:03:10 +0200acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@dynamic-046-114-168-070.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 16:03:30 +0200vandit(~vandit@94-21-174-89.pool.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-04 16:04:25 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.16.3)
2022-07-04 16:04:39 +0200vandit(~vandit@92-249-179-93.pool.digikabel.hu)
2022-07-04 16:08:01 +0200 <surobaki> Is there any way to tell Haskell in fewer lines that this pattern match is commutative? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/BT3rm4HC
2022-07-04 16:08:35 +0200 <merijn> no
2022-07-04 16:09:22 +0200 <lortabac> you can use a sorted list instead of matching on the arguments, but it's inefficient
2022-07-04 16:09:37 +0200 <surobaki> merijn: I see, thank you :)
2022-07-04 16:09:40 +0200 <surobaki> lortabac: Good to know
2022-07-04 16:09:42 +0200`2jt(~jtomas@141.red-88-17-65.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-07-04 16:12:27 +0200 <merijn> Yeah, you can do some hacky workarounds mapping both cases to a single case and operating on that. But nothing generic like "this is commutative"
2022-07-04 16:12:36 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-62-240-134-178.mrsn.at) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2022-07-04 16:46:05 +0200Guest27(~Guest27@h-98-128-228-171.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
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2022-07-04 17:01:09 +0200tromp(~textual@84-106-209-5.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-07-04 17:02:39 +0200moonsheep(~user@user/moonsheep)
2022-07-04 17:03:07 +0200 <maerwald> what can inhibit list fusion?
2022-07-04 17:03:29 +0200codedmart(codedmart@2600:3c01::f03c:92ff:fefe:8511)
2022-07-04 17:03:54 +0200 <c_wraith> sharing, not using functions that fuse, or a lack of inlining
2022-07-04 17:06:33 +0200moonsheep(~user@user/moonsheep) (Client Quit)
2022-07-04 17:07:11 +0200raym(~raym@user/raym)
2022-07-04 17:08:50 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 17:09:48 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@dynamic-046-114-168-070.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-04 17:09:48 +0200pleo(~pleo@user/pleo)
2022-07-04 17:11:02 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-07-04 17:17:05 +0200 <c_wraith> (or interactions between them, like inlining differently causing more or less things to be shared..)
2022-07-04 17:18:28 +0200pseigo(~pseigo@user/pseigo) (Quit: left)
2022-07-04 17:19:33 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.16.3) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-04 17:20:52 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2022-07-04 17:21:46 +0200 <maerwald> context: https://github.com/haskell/bytestring/pull/526
2022-07-04 17:22:27 +0200 <kuribas> or using more general functions, like fold, instead of concatMap
2022-07-04 17:22:29 +0200 <maerwald> it seems -fexpose-all-unfoldings doesn't work well
2022-07-04 17:23:50 +0200merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-028.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 17:25:58 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:5081:f59:6378:2cfd) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2022-07-04 17:26:15 +0200 <c_wraith> that's even called out as an inlining issue
2022-07-04 17:26:27 +0200 <c_wraith> remember, list fusion is implemented as RULES
2022-07-04 17:26:35 +0200 <c_wraith> and RULES very specifically match syntax
2022-07-04 17:26:43 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-07-04 17:26:56 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@135-180-3-34.static.sonic.net)
2022-07-04 17:27:11 +0200 <c_wraith> If your code doesn't inline to an application of foldr to the result of a call to build, list fusion won't happen
2022-07-04 17:27:53 +0200 <maerwald> c_wraith: what do you mean with "that's even called out as an inlining issue"?
2022-07-04 17:28:34 +0200zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag)
2022-07-04 17:28:34 +0200 <c_wraith> hasufell's comment from 7 minutes ago says that adding an INLINE pragma fixes it...
2022-07-04 17:28:51 +0200 <maerwald> yeah, that's me :D
2022-07-04 17:28:59 +0200 <c_wraith> well that's confusing! :P
2022-07-04 17:29:23 +0200 <maerwald> the idea was that -fexpose-all-unfoldings makes INLINE pragmas obsolete
2022-07-04 17:29:30 +0200 <maerwald> apparently it doesn't
2022-07-04 17:29:39 +0200 <c_wraith> sadly, nothing has made INLINE pragmas obsolete yet
2022-07-04 17:29:52 +0200 <maerwald> unpack not fusing is a pretty huge bug imo
2022-07-04 17:31:11 +0200 <maerwald> c_wraith: what's more confusing is that the old strict foldr' version is faster
2022-07-04 17:31:18 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@135-180-3-34.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-07-04 17:31:48 +0200 <c_wraith> for a strict foldr' with bytestring, don't you benefit from actually traversing it in reverse?
2022-07-04 17:32:09 +0200 <maerwald> hmm... so the old version is strict in chunks of 100 bytes
2022-07-04 17:32:22 +0200 <maerwald> (the old unpack, that is)
2022-07-04 17:32:42 +0200 <maerwald> the new unpack dropped this strategy (because it makes no sense for ShortByteString) and then strict foldr' got a lot slower
2022-07-04 17:33:40 +0200 <maerwald> which seems confusing if it has to traverse the entire thing anyway
2022-07-04 17:34:00 +0200 <dolio> It's hard to tell from the doc, but -fexpose-all-unfoldings doesn't sound like it'd replace INLINE, because the latter tells GHC to actually inline the function, regardless of what it thinks.
2022-07-04 17:34:10 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 17:34:43 +0200 <maerwald> ah, so it makes INLINEABLE obsolete, but not INLINE
2022-07-04 17:34:52 +0200is7s(~is7s@2a01:4b00:895f:3d00:7d21:5e77:2c62:7a18)
2022-07-04 17:35:21 +0200 <dolio> I mean, it's only obsolete if you want everything in your entire file to be inlineable, assuming there isn't some other discrepancy.
2022-07-04 17:36:29 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-07-04 17:36:30 +0200 <dolio> Inlineable has some other effects that I'm not sure are tied to the unfolding being available.
2022-07-04 17:36:44 +0200 <dolio> But perhaps they are.
2022-07-04 17:38:29 +0200alexhandy2(~trace@user/trace)
2022-07-04 17:41:10 +0200alexhandy(~trace@user/trace) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 17:44:02 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@dynamic-046-114-168-070.46.114.pool.telefonica.de)
2022-07-04 17:44:17 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-62-240-134-178.mrsn.at)
2022-07-04 17:44:25 +0200 <maerwald> c_wraith: is it possible that the GC slows it down? So traversing is faster without chunks of strictness, but there are more allocations... when it bounces back, then maybe there's GC pressure?
2022-07-04 17:50:12 +0200 <c_wraith> for which function?
2022-07-04 17:51:01 +0200merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-028.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-07-04 17:51:33 +0200Haskelytic(~Haskelyti@118.179.211.17)
2022-07-04 17:53:21 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:213:7200:cc36:a556:b1e8:b340) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-04 17:53:24 +0200 <c_wraith> like... your foldr' implementation in the comment from an hour ago probably should be the version implied by the TODO
2022-07-04 17:54:23 +0200 <c_wraith> (also, that bang pattern on n does nothing at all. But GHC should notice that and optimize it out, instead of having it slow anything down.)
2022-07-04 17:54:39 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-04 17:54:39 +0200 <maerwald> c_wraith: https://gist.github.com/hasufell/c9614df236bf0a0a78ecf45d52df08b8
2022-07-04 17:54:58 +0200 <maerwald> the confusion is not about the manual implementation of foldr'
2022-07-04 17:55:41 +0200 <c_wraith> ok
2022-07-04 17:55:45 +0200 <maerwald> here, old is faster than new
2022-07-04 17:56:01 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-07-04 17:56:03 +0200 <maerwald> although the old unpack is slower when traversing
2022-07-04 17:56:08 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-07-04 17:56:26 +0200 <maerwald> so either it's an optimization quirk, or something with GC
2022-07-04 17:56:34 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2022-07-04 17:56:41 +0200 <carbolymer> how do I make typechecker happy here with this Monoid instance https://ideone.com/eztMdO ?
2022-07-04 17:57:07 +0200 <c_wraith> wait, so what case is old faster in?
2022-07-04 17:57:19 +0200moonsheep(~user@user/moonsheep)
2022-07-04 17:57:56 +0200 <moonsheep> Is it possible to build GHC for armv6l? Or at least crosscompile for it?
2022-07-04 17:58:39 +0200 <maerwald> c_wraith: S.foldr' (\x acc -> fromIntegral x + acc) (0 :: Int)) s (map (\k -> S.pack $ if k <= 6 then take (2 ^ k) [32..95] else concat (replicate (2 ^ (k - 6)) [32..95])) [0..16])
2022-07-04 17:59:19 +0200 <maerwald> so the inner function is just (+)
2022-07-04 18:00:59 +0200EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-04 18:01:18 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@p548c90fa.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-07-04 18:01:20 +0200 <c_wraith> oh, and the call to unpack is inside S.foldr' ?
2022-07-04 18:01:21 +0200EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr)
2022-07-04 18:01:29 +0200 <maerwald> yeah
2022-07-04 18:01:49 +0200 <maerwald> foldr' k v = Foldable.foldr' k v . unpack
2022-07-04 18:02:24 +0200 <c_wraith> huh, I'd really expect foldr' to perform horribly on lists in every case...
2022-07-04 18:03:52 +0200 <c_wraith> which makes going via list a really weird choice.
2022-07-04 18:04:03 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@135-180-3-34.static.sonic.net)
2022-07-04 18:04:10 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 18:05:23 +0200 <maerwald> yeah, but that's not the question... I want to know why a faster unpack can degrade performance for a strict foldr
2022-07-04 18:06:26 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-07-04 18:06:30 +0200MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@wlan-145-94-167-213.wlan.tudelft.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 18:10:15 +0200tromp(~textual@84-106-209-5.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-07-04 18:10:42 +0200 <c_wraith> ok. step 1 is that [] seems to use the default implementation of foldr', which is.. in terms of foldl? oh no, this is going very bad already
2022-07-04 18:10:54 +0200vandit(~vandit@92-249-179-93.pool.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-04 18:11:33 +0200segfaultfizzbuzz(~segfaultf@135-180-3-34.static.sonic.net) (Quit: segfaultfizzbuzz)
2022-07-04 18:12:14 +0200vandit(~vandit@84-236-40-151.pool.digikabel.hu)
2022-07-04 18:13:09 +0200surobaki(~surobaki@user/surobaki) (Quit: Goodbye!)
2022-07-04 18:14:17 +0200 <c_wraith> hmm. Ok, whatever, it's calling the same function on both versions. Are you sure this is a fusion issue? Just looking at the code, I'd question the user of unsafeIndex vs indexWord8Array
2022-07-04 18:14:26 +0200 <c_wraith> *use of
2022-07-04 18:15:02 +0200dsrt^(~dsrt@128-092-173-067.biz.spectrum.com)
2022-07-04 18:15:10 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@207.228.78.131) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 18:15:21 +0200 <c_wraith> mostly because I have no clue how unsafeIndex is implemented
2022-07-04 18:16:34 +0200 <c_wraith> Ok, nevermind. those are the same thing.
2022-07-04 18:16:38 +0200elkcl(~elkcl@broadband-37-110-156-162.ip.moscow.rt.ru) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 18:17:56 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-22-150.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2022-07-04 18:18:42 +0200 <c_wraith> still.. I'm curious if fusion is the real culprit.
2022-07-04 18:19:10 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@dynamic-046-114-168-070.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 18:19:25 +0200reda(~reda@user/reda)
2022-07-04 18:20:42 +0200 <c_wraith> If it is, I'm suspicious of the interaction between map and enumFromTo there
2022-07-04 18:21:20 +0200 <c_wraith> I wonder if things can inline such that RULES get applied in the "wrong" order and an opportunity for fusion is lost...
2022-07-04 18:22:36 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-22-150.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-04 18:25:51 +0200merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-028.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-04 18:26:04 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
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2022-07-04 18:29:08 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@dynamic-046-114-168-070.46.114.pool.telefonica.de)
2022-07-04 18:29:29 +0200zaquest(~notzaques@5.130.79.72)
2022-07-04 18:30:00 +0200 <maerwald> c_wraith: no, I don't think this has to do anything with fusion
2022-07-04 18:30:10 +0200 <maerwald> fusion is only relevant for lazy foldr
2022-07-04 18:32:31 +0200szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2022-07-04 18:32:37 +0200 <maerwald> what I'm thinking is that maybe the old version with the chunks advances to the end of the list, then when the first strict function application happens, it evaluates 100 elements strictly (indexWord8Array), then bounces back in chunks of 100... so maybe that's less thunks?
2022-07-04 18:35:14 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2022-07-04 18:36:42 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-07-04 18:36:47 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-07-04 18:37:46 +0200merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-028.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-07-04 18:38:23 +0200kuribas(~user@silversquare.silversquare.eu) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-04 18:39:24 +0200 <maerwald> unpackAppendBytesStrict sbs off sz remainder where remainder = go (off+sz) (len-sz) ws
2022-07-04 18:39:29 +0200 <maerwald> this recurses like a foldr...
2022-07-04 18:40:45 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2022-07-04 18:41:00 +0200 <c_wraith> unpackAppendBytesLazy traverses front to back. unpackAppendBytesStrict traverses back to front.
2022-07-04 18:41:57 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-07-04 18:42:03 +0200quarkyalice_(~alice@user/quarkyalice/x-8092822) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-04 18:42:10 +0200merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-028.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 18:42:11 +0200 <c_wraith> the net result is that it's going to have a lazy tail of the list with 100 Word8s from the bytestring ahead of it.
2022-07-04 18:42:39 +0200 <maerwald> yeah, so globally, it evaluates the list right to left in chunks of 100
2022-07-04 18:43:24 +0200 <maerwald> which seems beneficial for a strict foldr', which also kinda goes that direction
2022-07-04 18:43:54 +0200quarkyalice(~alice@172.79.64.198)
2022-07-04 18:43:54 +0200quarkyalice(~alice@172.79.64.198) (Changing host)
2022-07-04 18:43:54 +0200quarkyalice(~alice@user/quarkyalice)
2022-07-04 18:43:56 +0200 <c_wraith> a strict foldr' should be written to work only from back to front when possible, to minimize stack use
2022-07-04 18:46:20 +0200 <c_wraith> the performance you've described only makes sense if the cost of thunks is high
2022-07-04 18:46:54 +0200 <c_wraith> and if unpackAppendBytesStrict only puts one thunk into the list per 100 entries
2022-07-04 18:47:53 +0200agumonkey(~user@2a01:e0a:8f9:d3e0:b117:81a8:33f6:93e7)
2022-07-04 18:47:55 +0200 <c_wraith> well, only one unevaluated thunk.
2022-07-04 18:48:08 +0200 <c_wraith> Which is... actually quite plausible, given that (:) is a constructor.
2022-07-04 18:49:12 +0200 <c_wraith> the new version should actually be friendlier to GC. though chunks of 100 aren't a big deal anyway.
2022-07-04 18:49:49 +0200gurkenglas(~gurkengla@dslb-002-203-144-112.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
2022-07-04 18:50:06 +0200 <maerwald> well, let's hope people don't actually use foldr' lol
2022-07-04 18:50:23 +0200 <c_wraith> foldr' should have a different implementation anyway
2022-07-04 18:50:40 +0200 <c_wraith> it definitely shouldn't be going through [], that's just wasting stack space
2022-07-04 18:51:21 +0200 <c_wraith> even if that isn't a problem for ShortByteString, it's still just backwards. the strictness should allow using less stack!
2022-07-04 18:51:25 +0200tromp(~textual@84-106-209-5.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
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2022-07-04 19:11:19 +0200Topsi(~Topsi@host-88-217-154-179.customer.m-online.net)
2022-07-04 19:11:39 +0200 <Haskelytic> Does the `join` implementation for a monad `m` necessarily induce a monoid for `m a`?
2022-07-04 19:11:58 +0200 <Haskelytic> or am I way off base here
2022-07-04 19:11:59 +0200 <dolio> Yes.
2022-07-04 19:12:55 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2022-07-04 19:13:06 +0200 <Haskelytic> dolio: I see. Is that the "monoid" in the "monad is a *monoid* is the category of endofunctors"
2022-07-04 19:13:12 +0200 <c_wraith> err. well. sort of. it necessarily means m is a monoid.
2022-07-04 19:13:17 +0200 <c_wraith> but that's not m a
2022-07-04 19:13:32 +0200 <c_wraith> and yes, it's that monoid
2022-07-04 19:13:43 +0200 <Haskelytic> Hm...I seem to have internalized the idea that a monoid is necesarily a type constant
2022-07-04 19:14:06 +0200 <Haskelytic> as in, you can say `m a` is a monoid for all a
2022-07-04 19:14:13 +0200 <dolio> Oh wait. It's only a monoid if a is a monoid.
2022-07-04 19:14:41 +0200 <Haskelytic> where `m` has kind `* -> *`
2022-07-04 19:14:47 +0200 <c_wraith> the Monoid in the category of endofunctors thing is M x M -> M
2022-07-04 19:14:51 +0200mbuf(~Shakthi@122.164.15.134) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-07-04 19:14:57 +0200 <c_wraith> Which is exactly what join is an implementation of
2022-07-04 19:15:06 +0200jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d45f48.access.ecotel.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-07-04 19:15:06 +0200 <c_wraith> But it's not exactly haskell
2022-07-04 19:15:10 +0200 <Haskelytic> dolio: what about list w.resp to append? it doesn't need the list members `a` to be monoid
2022-07-04 19:15:37 +0200 <dolio> That uses other structure on lists.
2022-07-04 19:15:51 +0200christiansen(~christian@83-95-137-75-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net)
2022-07-04 19:15:55 +0200 <c_wraith> In Haskell, you can't type about functors as arguments to ->
2022-07-04 19:16:06 +0200 <c_wraith> so you end up with M (M a) -> M a
2022-07-04 19:16:13 +0200pleo(~pleo@user/pleo) (Quit: quit)
2022-07-04 19:16:14 +0200 <c_wraith> instead of M x M -> M
2022-07-04 19:17:03 +0200 <c_wraith> But that is what "monoid in the category of endofunctors" means
2022-07-04 19:17:09 +0200 <Haskelytic> Ah, I see. So if I squint there really hard I can see the implicit M x M
2022-07-04 19:17:14 +0200 <c_wraith> yeah
2022-07-04 19:18:04 +0200 <c_wraith> as always, category theory is much more general than the tiny bits of it realized in Haskell code. :)
2022-07-04 19:19:37 +0200 <Haskelytic> Haha yeah I'm starting to notice that now
2022-07-04 19:19:39 +0200 <Haskelytic> Thanks fellas!
2022-07-04 19:20:18 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2022-07-04 19:20:42 +0200 <dolio> Note that every type with a decidable value (like, you can tell if any other value is or is not equal to the particular value) can be given a monoid structure.
2022-07-04 19:21:37 +0200 <dolio> By using the distinguished value as a unit, and otherwise taking the first non-unit value.
2022-07-04 19:21:44 +0200 <c_wraith> Or the last!
2022-07-04 19:21:48 +0200 <dolio> Yeah.
2022-07-04 19:21:58 +0200 <c_wraith> or... the middlest? wait, no. that probably doesn't work. :)
2022-07-04 19:22:32 +0200 <c_wraith> (middleness is not associative!)
2022-07-04 19:22:37 +0200 <dolio> Right.
2022-07-04 19:23:23 +0200quarkyalice(~alice@172.79.64.198)
2022-07-04 19:23:23 +0200quarkyalice(~alice@172.79.64.198) (Changing host)
2022-07-04 19:23:23 +0200quarkyalice(~alice@user/quarkyalice)
2022-07-04 19:23:47 +0200 <Haskelytic> dolio: Oh wow I never thought of it that way :)
2022-07-04 19:24:25 +0200 <dolio> You can relax that to having a semigroup on every type, just by taking the first/last, and you can make that a monoid by adding a distinguished value with Maybe.
2022-07-04 19:27:07 +0200newsham(~newsham@2603-800c-2d00-e994-057b-eded-874b-b8f5.res6.spectrum.com) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-07-04 19:27:14 +0200is7s(~is7s@2a01:4b00:895f:3d00:7d21:5e77:2c62:7a18) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-07-04 19:27:39 +0200quarkyalice(~alice@user/quarkyalice) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-07-04 19:28:54 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-07-04 19:30:38 +0200 <dolio> Anyhow, one common observation is that this means `m ()` is a monoid for any monad m.
2022-07-04 19:30:42 +0200mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-07-04 19:37:30 +0200coot(~coot@213.134.190.95) (Quit: coot)
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2022-07-04 19:41:04 +0200tromp(~textual@84-106-209-5.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-07-04 19:42:26 +0200dknite(~dknite@49.37.45.188) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2022-07-04 19:43:59 +0200dknite(~dknite@49.37.45.188)
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2022-07-04 19:53:47 +0200turlando(~turlando@user/turlando) ()
2022-07-04 19:54:07 +0200 <dolio> Also, you might think that every type has a distinguished value, ⊥, but you cannot make the first/last monoid with ⊥ as the unit.
2022-07-04 19:54:12 +0200turlando(~turlando@user/turlando)
2022-07-04 20:00:50 +0200fweht(uid404746@id-404746.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2022-07-04 20:02:39 +0200edinwood(~edinwood@109.249.184.205)
2022-07-04 20:03:15 +0200 <edinwood> do linear types include linear functions?
2022-07-04 20:03:41 +0200 <edinwood> since my functions have parameters supplied in a shaped thing, they are only used "in that position" if that makes sense
2022-07-04 20:03:52 +0200 <edinwood> ie, one function per params in the container
2022-07-04 20:04:08 +0200Raito_Bezarius(~Raito@wireguard/tunneler/raito-bezarius) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-07-04 20:04:16 +0200 <edinwood> i guess you could think of it as applicative zipWith
2022-07-04 20:04:29 +0200 <edinwood> so, in that case, all those functions are only run once
2022-07-04 20:04:36 +0200 <edinwood> can we use linear types to say that?
2022-07-04 20:04:43 +0200benin0(~benin@183.82.26.81) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2022-07-04 20:04:54 +0200 <dminuoso> Mmm I forgot. How were uniqueness types like in Clean dual to linear types as they are in Haskell again?
2022-07-04 20:05:14 +0200 <edinwood> idk Clean sry
2022-07-04 20:05:46 +0200merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-028.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-07-04 20:05:47 +0200 <edinwood> linear types just have an annotation on the arguments to the arrow saying if this input is "consumed"
2022-07-04 20:05:56 +0200pwug(~pwug@user/pwug)
2022-07-04 20:06:04 +0200 <edinwood> and strictly destroyed upon its first use
2022-07-04 20:06:13 +0200quarkyalice(~alice@172.79.64.198)
2022-07-04 20:06:13 +0200quarkyalice(~alice@172.79.64.198) (Changing host)
2022-07-04 20:06:13 +0200quarkyalice(~alice@user/quarkyalice)
2022-07-04 20:06:32 +0200chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc17:ef00:b970:eb1f:3e6:5c29) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-07-04 20:07:18 +0200 <edinwood> or was this uniquesness question trying to comunicate more than just whats a linear type?
2022-07-04 20:07:36 +0200 <edinwood> like, is the duality you mention of any relavence here in particular?
2022-07-04 20:07:39 +0200 <dminuoso> No, Im just trying to remember a previous discussion.
2022-07-04 20:07:45 +0200 <edinwood> fair
2022-07-04 20:08:04 +0200 <dminuoso> I do not have logs any longer. @tomsmeding any chance I can get hold of ircbrowse logs for #haskell?
2022-07-04 20:08:23 +0200 <edinwood> sure there still at tunes?
2022-07-04 20:08:25 +0200 <dminuoso> The old site exposed them via simple http file browser
2022-07-04 20:08:35 +0200 <dminuoso> Nope, not any longer
2022-07-04 20:08:40 +0200 <edinwood> we lost all the logs! god damn freenode
2022-07-04 20:08:51 +0200 <dminuoso> Nothing to do with freenode
2022-07-04 20:08:55 +0200 <edinwood> sure enough pppl had snapshots
2022-07-04 20:09:27 +0200 <edinwood> dminuoso, changing the access from freenode to libera will have knocked off a load of trackers
2022-07-04 20:09:50 +0200 <edinwood> i dont understand whats going on atall
2022-07-04 20:10:13 +0200 <edinwood> some kind of moral panic, idk, the dork web took over or something?
2022-07-04 20:10:30 +0200 <geekosaur[m]> Tunes died before freenode
2022-07-04 20:10:30 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@mobiledyn-62-240-134-178.mrsn.at) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 20:10:44 +0200 <edinwood> forshaddowing
2022-07-04 20:11:13 +0200 <edinwood> something weird was happening with haskell ecosystem forward facing something
2022-07-04 20:11:31 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2022-07-04 20:11:33 +0200 <geekosaur[m]> And I'm not sure we'll ever know the truth about Andrew Lee
2022-07-04 20:11:34 +0200 <edinwood> maybe ructions as it reaches critical mass
2022-07-04 20:11:44 +0200 <edinwood> lol, the ** is andrew lee?
2022-07-04 20:12:10 +0200 <geekosaur[m]> The whackjob that took over freenode
2022-07-04 20:12:33 +0200 <dminuoso> geekosaur[m]: Based on some recent evidence, I think he may have either lost control of freenode, sold it, or lost interest completely
2022-07-04 20:12:49 +0200 <geekosaur[m]> Ah
2022-07-04 20:13:01 +0200 <edinwood> not just some grand reset shakeup
2022-07-04 20:13:35 +0200 <edinwood> i like how your actual explanations seem less likely
2022-07-04 20:13:58 +0200 <dolio> dminuoso: x is unique if it hasn't been shared yet. x is affine if it may not be further shared (but it's possible it's already shared).
2022-07-04 20:14:03 +0200 <edinwood> i think i can use linear types at a constructor to a list of functions anyway maybe
2022-07-04 20:14:06 +0200 <geekosaur[m]> First a big reset then a bad reddit clone then something else then back to irc
2022-07-04 20:14:50 +0200 <edinwood> nope, the past was where the future was at, now we have to live through its crumbling as its design is played in reverse
2022-07-04 20:15:20 +0200 <dolio> Linear includes a condition on necessary use that doesn't enter in to uniqueness, really.
2022-07-04 20:15:33 +0200 <dminuoso> dolio: Oh I see. So with linear types you couldn't know its previous history. Is there a mechanism to turn non-linear things into linear things then?
2022-07-04 20:15:56 +0200 <dolio> Yeah, you can pass non-linear values to linear functions, I think.
2022-07-04 20:15:57 +0200 <edinwood> you have to
2022-07-04 20:16:11 +0200 <edinwood> it means you load them up at some concrete copying stage
2022-07-04 20:16:30 +0200 <edinwood> having that clear in the program graph can be helpful to the compiler during optimisation i presume
2022-07-04 20:17:00 +0200 <edinwood> have to "to turn non-linear things into linear things then"
2022-07-04 20:17:08 +0200Raito_Bezarius(~Raito@wireguard/tunneler/raito-bezarius)
2022-07-04 20:17:11 +0200 <dminuoso> dolio: So I guess similarly, a unique thing may be shared in the future.
2022-07-04 20:17:23 +0200 <edinwood> dolio: that sounds wrong
2022-07-04 20:17:35 +0200 <edinwood> and what do you mean by linear function?
2022-07-04 20:17:54 +0200 <edinwood> if you mean an arrow that specifies the input argument is linear, no you cant supply something nonlinear
2022-07-04 20:18:22 +0200 <dolio> Yeah, if you share a unique thing it becomes non-unique. Although I don't exactly know how the checker operated.
2022-07-04 20:18:28 +0200 <edinwood> what i want is that a *function* is used only once, and im not sure if i can express that
2022-07-04 20:18:45 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-07-04 20:18:50 +0200 <edinwood> i guess it just is suppled as a linear type, but i didnt know if functions are still first class citizens in this case
2022-07-04 20:19:16 +0200 <edinwood> and basically, the partial application of a function, even that takes nonlinear type in its first arg, should produce then a "linear function"
2022-07-04 20:19:36 +0200 <dolio> edinwood: f :: A -o B means that f uses its argument exactly once. There's no problem with providing it a value that needn't be used exactly once.
2022-07-04 20:19:38 +0200 <edinwood> unless it somehow intrinsically copys the parameters for its reuse or something
2022-07-04 20:19:56 +0200 <edinwood> so A is a linear type
2022-07-04 20:20:05 +0200 <edinwood> in not sure you should say f is a linear function
2022-07-04 20:20:10 +0200 <dminuoso> dolio: Would that imply that if you had uniqueness and affine types for sharing at the same time, you could identify the largest possible region in which mutation was safe to do?
2022-07-04 20:20:55 +0200 <edinwood> so if i have a list with linear cons...
2022-07-04 20:21:03 +0200 <dminuoso> That is, a region in which all operations on that value can be expressed as mutation
2022-07-04 20:21:04 +0200 <edinwood> then i have a bunch of linear values
2022-07-04 20:21:21 +0200 <edinwood> now if i map any function over them, they would hide the linearity
2022-07-04 20:21:49 +0200 <edinwood> i get a nonlinear value as a result!
2022-07-04 20:21:51 +0200 <dolio> dminuoso: I'm not sure about that. :)
2022-07-04 20:22:22 +0200 <edinwood> how am i supposed to do a partial application which doesnt ruin the linearity of the undelying first argument, by allowing a function which has it partially applied to be reused
2022-07-04 20:22:43 +0200 <edinwood> seems like its copying it under the hood
2022-07-04 20:23:19 +0200 <edinwood> and i wanted to be able to say this wasnt possible, to avoid a branching computation specified on one of the intermediate value types or inputs
2022-07-04 20:23:50 +0200 <edinwood> "i have given you a linear value, you will do no copy branching in the program graph after this"
2022-07-04 20:26:07 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@207.228.78.155)
2022-07-04 20:31:11 +0200 <edinwood> ok, this doesnt work because the linear types thing we have is just linearity on inputs
2022-07-04 20:31:26 +0200 <edinwood> i was wondering how you could insist the return type was linear also
2022-07-04 20:31:38 +0200 <edinwood> i think you can return a linear continuation
2022-07-04 20:31:55 +0200 <edinwood> and then what i want is some kind of free extension of this
2022-07-04 20:32:28 +0200 <edinwood> so it returns a linear continuation that returns a linear continuation and so on
2022-07-04 20:32:42 +0200 <edinwood> thereby insisting the rest of the program graph is a line
2022-07-04 20:33:04 +0200 <edinwood> idk how you would write the free linear continuation though
2022-07-04 20:33:17 +0200 <edinwood> can anyone easily terll how that would be written?
2022-07-04 20:34:48 +0200tromp(~textual@84-106-209-5.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-07-04 20:35:57 +0200 <edinwood> right, so my problem with not being able to express a "linear function", was to do with this lack of support for outputing linear values?
2022-07-04 20:36:29 +0200 <dolio> Yeah. My understanding is that you need to write in continuation passing style for that.
2022-07-04 20:36:32 +0200 <edinwood> and if you want to say that you have to use a free linear continuation!?
2022-07-04 20:36:50 +0200 <dolio> Which seems a bit annoying.
2022-07-04 20:36:53 +0200 <edinwood> its hellish!
2022-07-04 20:37:39 +0200 <troydm> quick dumb question, I have [IO ()] how can I turn it into IO (), e.g run all IO monads in a list
2022-07-04 20:37:46 +0200 <troydm> forgot it :(
2022-07-04 20:37:46 +0200 <edinwood> but allows to say; "consuming this value makes you linear, making that value ... like, more linear"
2022-07-04 20:37:56 +0200 <dminuoso> troydm: Use `sequence_`
2022-07-04 20:38:03 +0200 <troydm> dminuoso: thx
2022-07-04 20:38:11 +0200 <dminuoso> troydm: Also, chances are the spot you produced it in should have used traverse_ or for_ instead
2022-07-04 20:38:43 +0200 <dminuoso> `sequence/sequence_` is usually an indicator for this. :)
2022-07-04 20:38:43 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@207.228.78.155) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-07-04 20:39:28 +0200 <troydm> dminuoso: worked, thx
2022-07-04 20:39:41 +0200 <edinwood> hmm, if you want to have a function you only use once that does not output a more-linear value, then you dont need to use the free continuation
2022-07-04 20:40:24 +0200merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-028.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2022-07-04 20:40:35 +0200 <edinwood> so what i want to say is "consumption of the linear value by partial application results in a function which can only be used one"
2022-07-04 20:40:50 +0200dknite(~dknite@49.37.45.188) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2022-07-04 20:42:48 +0200 <edinwood> partiallyApplyLinearly :: (p -o a -o b) -> p -o (a -o b)
2022-07-04 20:42:51 +0200 <edinwood> does not do this
2022-07-04 20:43:11 +0200 <edinwood> the resulting function (a -o b) can be reused
2022-07-04 20:43:32 +0200 <edinwood> duplicating p under the hood, which it is desired to forbid
2022-07-04 20:43:58 +0200 <edinwood> how do i do this continuation thing?
2022-07-04 20:44:17 +0200 <edinwood> its because its a "linear continuation" so its first arg is linear
2022-07-04 20:44:57 +0200vandit(~vandit@84-236-40-151.pool.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-07-04 20:45:00 +0200 <edinwood> i forget what continuations look like; ((a -> x) -> x) is a continuation on `a' right?
2022-07-04 20:45:33 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@207.228.78.156)
2022-07-04 20:45:58 +0200 <edinwood> looks like i should return; (((a -o b) -> x) -o x)
2022-07-04 20:46:02 +0200 <edinwood> does that seem right?
2022-07-04 20:46:15 +0200vandit(~vandit@92-249-141-171.pool.digikabel.hu)
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2022-07-04 20:46:46 +0200 <edinwood> argh, but there is nothing stopping this being copied!
2022-07-04 20:46:57 +0200 <edinwood> so it looks like you might need the free thing afterall
2022-07-04 20:47:13 +0200 <edinwood> im lost at this point
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2022-07-04 20:48:38 +0200 <edinwood> all i can do is require another function which consumes that linearly
2022-07-04 20:48:54 +0200 <edinwood> cant see how to handle this free extension
2022-07-04 20:49:56 +0200 <edinwood> it doesnt seem like i can do anything else except keep asking for more linear functions to consume the outputs
2022-07-04 20:50:19 +0200 <edinwood> i wonder if actually what i need is a good way to express *that*
2022-07-04 20:50:57 +0200 <edinwood> more functions to consume the outputs linearly*
2022-07-04 20:52:23 +0200pleo(~pleo@user/pleo)
2022-07-04 20:52:31 +0200 <edinwood> its just a typed list with tied neighbouring types, of linear functions
2022-07-04 20:52:50 +0200 <edinwood> functions specifying linear arguments*
2022-07-04 20:53:58 +0200 <edinwood> this is kinda clunky, the free extension sounds nicer because you could pass it around, maybe you could make one that uses this list
2022-07-04 20:54:25 +0200agumonkey(~user@2a01:e0a:8f9:d3e0:b117:81a8:33f6:93e7)
2022-07-04 20:54:30 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@207.228.78.156) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 20:56:09 +0200 <edinwood> partially applied constructor (of a list with a linear constructor)?
2022-07-04 20:56:38 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@207.228.78.80)
2022-07-04 21:00:41 +0200 <edinwood> "i will consume the value linearly, and the argument (tail) i require to return, is of functions that will consume this value subsequently, in the same linear way"
2022-07-04 21:01:06 +0200 <edinwood> the linear constructor of a linear dotlist
2022-07-04 21:01:19 +0200 <edinwood> (a dot-list of linear functions)
2022-07-04 21:01:49 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.16.3)
2022-07-04 21:02:47 +0200 <edinwood> so wrapped in the partially applied linear constructor of the "linear-dot linear-list", all the functions consume the subsequently resulting values linearly
2022-07-04 21:02:51 +0200 <edinwood> whew
2022-07-04 21:03:05 +0200 <edinwood> no continuations
2022-07-04 21:04:01 +0200 <edinwood> so if i return a value wrapped in the partially applied linear constructor, the only way to retrive it is to provide the tail
2022-07-04 21:05:54 +0200 <edinwood> you could have a continuation where you supply this tail (which should be a datatype which stores the output at the "last" constructor (instead of an empty basecase)
2022-07-04 21:06:45 +0200 <edinwood> (Tail moreTypeData o -> o)
2022-07-04 21:07:44 +0200 <edinwood> not sure where the value wrapped in the partially appled constructor goes
2022-07-04 21:09:30 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@207.228.78.80) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-07-04 21:11:43 +0200 <edinwood> instead of (a -o b), its `a -o (Tail b xs o -o o)'
2022-07-04 21:11:52 +0200 <edinwood> does this seem alright result?
2022-07-04 21:12:48 +0200 <edinwood> it returns the type of the partially applied constructor by the looks of it
2022-07-04 21:13:05 +0200 <edinwood> encouraging you to do so, thereby consuming the value linearly!
2022-07-04 21:13:49 +0200 <edinwood> oh, this is literally the type of the constructor
2022-07-04 21:13:53 +0200 <edinwood> duh
2022-07-04 21:15:14 +0200 <edinwood> or would that be; (a -o b) -o (Tail b xs o -o o)
2022-07-04 21:15:37 +0200 <edinwood> im not sure why it evaluates the tail, some confusion with the continuation, i have no idea what im doing and so will stop
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2022-07-04 23:49:41 +0200 <shapr> Do any of the db libraries make it easy to generate a bunch of test data that follows the db schema?
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