IRCBrowse

2022/06/29

2022-06-29 00:01:46 +0200pleo(~pleo@user/pleo) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-06-29 00:04:26 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-06-29 00:07:12 +0200Psybur(~Psybur@c-76-123-45-25.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
2022-06-29 00:09:36 +0200meinside(uid24933@id-24933.helmsley.irccloud.com)
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2022-06-29 00:15:02 +0200 <Psybur> How would you create a framework that expresses your business logic in pure code, possibly with its own dialect of SQL or SQL like DSL, and then implement each piece in multiple backends, that each have their own objects (DataFrames etc) and dialect of SQL?
2022-06-29 00:16:28 +0200 <ARJ0019> I have found this talk to be useful and relevant to the problem you are trying to solve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US8QG9I1XW0
2022-06-29 00:16:51 +0200 <ARJ0019> I would try to explain it myself, but I am still new to haskell
2022-06-29 00:17:16 +0200 <ARJ0019> the talk is not haskell specific, but it covers the concepts
2022-06-29 00:17:26 +0200Natch(~natch@c-9e07225c.038-60-73746f7.bbcust.telenor.se)
2022-06-29 00:18:30 +0200 <Psybur> thanks, watching
2022-06-29 00:20:41 +0200pleo(~pleo@user/pleo)
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2022-06-29 00:56:56 +0200 <EvanR> my bumbling path: OO concepts => forget OO concepts => learn algebraic concepts => go back and see what OO could look like algebraically => dust off the aftermath and see if anything useful remains of OO that's not just algebra
2022-06-29 00:58:40 +0200 <EvanR> shoot that convo is way in the past
2022-06-29 00:59:14 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:a4ff:9938:ec1d:a54a:6688)
2022-06-29 01:00:11 +0200 <hpc> heh, i had the advantage of not learning the OO concepts "properly"
2022-06-29 01:01:31 +0200 <hpc> whenever i look at OOP design patterns now, i just keep thinking "that's just a function" about one pattern, and "that's just a function" about a completely different pattern
2022-06-29 01:02:56 +0200 <EvanR> "that would be just a function if we even had functions here"
2022-06-29 01:03:26 +0200 <EvanR> "if only I had a function"
2022-06-29 01:03:53 +0200 <dsal> I learned OO from "Object Oriented Software Construction" (Eiffel) and then tried to do stuff in Java which was philosophically completely opposite.
2022-06-29 01:04:35 +0200 <dsal> IN OOSC, you'd have methods that either let you get information from an object or altered the object, but never both. In java, you just changed all the things all the time.
2022-06-29 01:06:04 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-97.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
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2022-06-29 01:08:56 +0200 <EvanR> sounds great on paper, then you get hit with stuff like... check if the file exists, if so, open it! (and before you manage to open it, the file is moved by someone else)
2022-06-29 01:10:02 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-28-31.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2022-06-29 01:10:17 +0200 <dsal> Sure, that's why you skip the first part.
2022-06-29 01:11:21 +0200 <EvanR> so "alter the object" could return information!
2022-06-29 01:12:59 +0200 <EvanR> I wonder what other arbitrary principles like those in eiffel there are
2022-06-29 01:13:18 +0200jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d45f48.access.ecotel.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-06-29 01:13:48 +0200 <EvanR> weird stuff like all expressions are referentially transparent
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2022-06-29 01:24:40 +0200 <yin> what does this mean?: ghc: can't find a package database at /home/yin/seis/dist-newstyle/packagedb/ghc-8.10.7
2022-06-29 01:26:52 +0200lottaquestions(~nick@S0106a84e3f794893.ca.shawcable.net)
2022-06-29 01:27:03 +0200 <yin> hm... nvm i think i get what i did wrong
2022-06-29 01:27:45 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2022-06-29 01:28:59 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
2022-06-29 01:33:08 +0200 <dsal> "alter the object" changes the state. You ask for the state separately. It's a similar concept to returning a record with a bunch of fields.
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2022-06-29 02:20:24 +0200 <Psybur> ARJ0019, heh so that video just boils down to "Just write pure functions bro" >.>
2022-06-29 02:23:51 +0200 <Axman6> I shared this yesterday, which basically boils down to "Use types and make the immutable" https://roman.pt/posts/dont-let-dicts-spoil-your-code/
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2022-06-29 07:13:44 +0200slack1256(~slack1256@191.125.99.208)
2022-06-29 07:16:22 +0200 <slack1256> I have been reading the literature on fusion/deforestation optimization passes. Most of the papers work on a non-strict setting, but what I have seen seems valid for a pure strict language. Is my intuition right?
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2022-06-29 07:53:34 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-06-29 07:53:54 +0200 <Axman6> I think a lot of it boild down to the case of known case optimisation - inspecting a value that was just created in a case statement means you can inline the creating and the inspection and eliminate allocating the intermediate value all together
2022-06-29 07:54:41 +0200 <Axman6> and I can't off the top of my head think of any reason why strictness would play a role there, unless the fileds in the data were strict, and even then you'd just need to inset the appropriate `seq`s
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2022-06-29 08:01:21 +0200 <mon_aaraj> what do you guys think about arrows? and furthermore, arrowized functional reactive programming?
2022-06-29 08:01:41 +0200 <mon_aaraj> from what i've seen, a lot of people seem to think that they're rather awkward, most notably the creator of reactive bananas
2022-06-29 08:02:12 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-06-29 08:02:14 +0200 <mon_aaraj> by "they", i specifically mean arrows
2022-06-29 08:08:06 +0200ollenurb[m](~ollenurbm@2001:470:69fc:105::2:39d2)
2022-06-29 08:08:49 +0200yrlnry(~yrlnry@pool-108-2-150-109.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
2022-06-29 08:09:05 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2022-06-29 08:10:54 +0200 <Franciman> interesting question. mon_aaraj apparently this paper http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psznhn/Publications/afp2002.pdf says that the arrow based programming allows to avoid some space and time leaks
2022-06-29 08:12:54 +0200 <mon_aaraj> yep, i know. that's generally why it's used, and it's a common abstraction that's more useful than monads in these scenarios
2022-06-29 08:13:03 +0200 <mon_aaraj> i have read that paper already
2022-06-29 08:13:17 +0200yrlnry(~yrlnry@pool-108-2-150-109.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-06-29 08:13:28 +0200 <mon_aaraj> i guess i am just wondering what people with experinece think about it
2022-06-29 08:13:44 +0200 <Franciman> at page 5 of the pdf there is an example of such leaks
2022-06-29 08:14:14 +0200 <Franciman> i think reactive-banana found other ways to solve the issue
2022-06-29 08:14:34 +0200 <Franciman> and in general the non arrowised version seems easier to work with at the beginning
2022-06-29 08:15:40 +0200 <Axman6> jackdk: do you have thoughts on ^ and FRP/Reflex?
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2022-06-29 09:00:06 +0200 <jackdk> Axman6: I am not familiar enough with FRP implementation details and/or arrowised FRP to say anything useful here, sorry
2022-06-29 09:00:11 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-06-29 09:01:46 +0200 <merijn> mon_aaraj: arrows are a mostly dead abstraction that have been obsoleted by a combination of other, more useful classes/abstractions
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2022-06-29 09:01:58 +0200 <merijn> mon_aaraj: Specifically: Applicative, Profunctor, and Category
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2022-06-29 09:12:37 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net)
2022-06-29 09:13:32 +0200 <chreekat> There's still somebody (was it the opaleye author?) who argues for the value of arrows, but yeah not a lot of use in the wild
2022-06-29 09:14:33 +0200Polo(~Gambino@user/polo)
2022-06-29 09:15:27 +0200 <merijn> I mean, the fact that the only libraries using arrows that I'm aware of predate arrows and are, like, over a decade old seems to suggest the consensus is they're dead :p
2022-06-29 09:15:47 +0200 <merijn> Meanwhile, Profunctor has spread across large swathes of libraries in a handful of years
2022-06-29 09:16:48 +0200 <merijn> There's a reason Monad and Applicative where, effectively, *everywhere* within a handful of years of being introduced and arrows are not :p
2022-06-29 09:17:06 +0200 <merijn> I think Arrow adoption would've been bigger if "arr" had not existed
2022-06-29 09:20:20 +0200 <mon_aaraj> merijn: Alright... that's an interesting response
2022-06-29 09:20:38 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2022-06-29 09:21:19 +0200 <merijn> mon_aaraj: basically, the combination of Category, Profunctor, and Applicative can be used to implement nearly (if not literally? ask edwardk :p) everything you can do with Arrow. Except with more flexible and general interfaces
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2022-06-29 09:22:01 +0200 <mon_aaraj> yeah, i do know that they can be used to implement the entirety of arrows
2022-06-29 09:22:19 +0200 <merijn> Also, nobody understands ArrowSyntax :p
2022-06-29 09:22:45 +0200 <mon_aaraj> but why would you re-implement them when arrows were already implemented (using the same ADTs you just listed) with great support from the haskell side?
2022-06-29 09:23:20 +0200 <merijn> Well, they don't really ahve great support in the ecosystem (nothing uses them), the other classes do
2022-06-29 09:23:23 +0200 <mon_aaraj> but it's interesting, i thought arrows were pretty much general and useful enough. what would you improve by re-implementing them with "more flexible and general interfaces"? what's the upside?
2022-06-29 09:23:44 +0200yrlnry(~yrlnry@pool-108-2-150-109.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
2022-06-29 09:24:02 +0200 <merijn> mon_aaraj: They're actually not so general. 90% of the times I wanted to use arrows I got screwd by "arr :: Arrow arr => (a -> b) -> arr a b" being unimplementable
2022-06-29 09:24:34 +0200 <mon_aaraj> well isn't that the only useful manner you could use arrows while keeping them as profunctors?
2022-06-29 09:24:59 +0200coot(~coot@213.134.190.95)
2022-06-29 09:26:01 +0200 <mon_aaraj> i'm assuming you mean that you had a function with arity of >1, so you couldn't use `arr` on that function. unless you mean something else?
2022-06-29 09:28:06 +0200 <c_wraith> nah, it's about cases that can't be profunctors either
2022-06-29 09:28:28 +0200 <mon_aaraj> cases?
2022-06-29 09:29:20 +0200Polo(~Gambino@user/polo) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-06-29 09:29:54 +0200 <mon_aaraj> oh, nevermind, you can have any function be `arr`d, even if it has more than 1 arity
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2022-06-29 09:30:43 +0200 <c_wraith> like... arr is a natural consequence of category + functor. Usually if you have a type where that's a problem, it's the functor instance that's the problem
2022-06-29 09:31:33 +0200 <mon_aaraj> that's very interestinhg
2022-06-29 09:33:31 +0200coot(~coot@213.134.190.95) (Quit: coot)
2022-06-29 09:34:17 +0200 <chreekat> Apparently there are also problems with arrows other than ergonomics. I thought https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pull/303 was interesting
2022-06-29 09:35:06 +0200 <mon_aaraj> oh, wow, lexilambda again, i guess the haskell world is a very very small one
2022-06-29 09:35:16 +0200 <mon_aaraj> i was just looking at eff and their twitch clip of algebraic effects
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2022-06-29 09:37:25 +0200 <mon_aaraj> hm... very interersting read, but it looks like it isn't a fundamental issue with arrows, just GHC optimization issues?
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2022-06-29 09:39:06 +0200 <mon_aaraj> if you can't tell already, i personally believe arrows are decent abstractions. i don't really use them a lot, i find them nice in FRP.. but that's mostly it. i've recently discovered that arrows might have some big design issue and i've been asking around to see what the issue with them was
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2022-06-29 10:00:12 +0200 <maerwald[m]> mon_aaraj: no one knows what they are for, mostly
2022-06-29 10:00:31 +0200 <maerwald[m]> The blockchain of category theory
2022-06-29 10:01:18 +0200liz(~liz@host86-159-158-175.range86-159.btcentralplus.com)
2022-06-29 10:01:39 +0200 <merijn> So they're for duping people with only superificial understanding? ;)
2022-06-29 10:01:53 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-97.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2022-06-29 10:03:05 +0200fserucas(~fserucas@1.64.114.89.rev.vodafone.pt)
2022-06-29 10:03:24 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald[m]: Re cabal flags. If another package depends on aeson being in scope *implicitly*, I say they deserve all their breakage.
2022-06-29 10:04:24 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-06-29 10:05:10 +0200 <maerwald[m]> dminuoso: I'm not sure I understand
2022-06-29 10:05:32 +0200 <dminuoso> "When another package/import provides the disabled API"
2022-06-29 10:05:36 +0200 <dminuoso> Maybe I misunderstood.
2022-06-29 10:06:31 +0200 <maerwald[m]> I'm talking about your own package. It might only compile with the flag turned off, because with it turned on you may get ambiguous imports or so
2022-06-29 10:06:36 +0200 <dminuoso> Do you mean if I have a diamond shaped dependency, where dependency *depends* on the API being present, but I disable it anyway?
2022-06-29 10:06:44 +0200zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a301:3d00:39df:1c4b:8a55:48d3)
2022-06-29 10:07:08 +0200 <maerwald[m]> So you should make sure your package compiles with the flag on and off
2022-06-29 10:07:22 +0200 <dminuoso> Ah yes
2022-06-29 10:07:27 +0200 <maerwald[m]> It's not guaranteed, evev if the flag just disables api
2022-06-29 10:09:24 +0200Haskelytic(~Haskelyti@118.179.211.17) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-06-29 10:09:41 +0200 <maerwald[m]> merijn: arrows are a scam, making use of your greedy dopamine system, yes
2022-06-29 10:11:37 +0200 <dminuoso> Can I have have continuations with arrows?
2022-06-29 10:11:42 +0200 <dminuoso> I want non-local goto.
2022-06-29 10:12:15 +0200ccntrq(~Thunderbi@2a02:3100:7043:e800:3eb9:8031:7f7:7beb)
2022-06-29 10:12:18 +0200 <mon_aaraj> maerwald[m]: very true. i find that there are way too little resources for arrows and working with them
2022-06-29 10:12:34 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:a18e:bc95:1523:62c)
2022-06-29 10:12:50 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.52.133)
2022-06-29 10:13:01 +0200 <mon_aaraj> i am responding to the "no one knows what they are for" message
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2022-06-29 10:42:35 +0200umbra87(~umbra@2804:3b0:9650:d158:bc38:c0b5:5660:3a71) ()
2022-06-29 10:45:28 +0200 <mon_aaraj> huh, i might've found something to solve the issues you guys said arrows had: https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2014/EECS-2014-130.pdf
2022-06-29 10:45:41 +0200coot(~coot@213.134.190.95)
2022-06-29 10:46:37 +0200 <maerwald> mon_aaraj: a 90 pages paper?
2022-06-29 10:46:55 +0200 <mon_aaraj> yeah, it tries to generalize arrows and it looks very interesting
2022-06-29 10:47:58 +0200 <maerwald> so maybe 2% of Haskellers will read that and half of those will decide that Arrows are still not interesting
2022-06-29 10:48:48 +0200Kevin578(~Kevin578@pool-173-76-179-30.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-06-29 10:49:22 +0200 <mon_aaraj> lol
2022-06-29 10:52:04 +0200 <mon_aaraj> It is very interesting though, the fact that Applicative+Category is much more expressive than arrows
2022-06-29 10:52:18 +0200 <mon_aaraj> it looks like it might be a better solution to the problem
2022-06-29 10:53:06 +0200 <mon_aaraj> and with something like category-syntax (though it hasn't had a commit since 2017, but it at least proves it's possible) has an alternative to proc syntax implemented
2022-06-29 10:54:05 +0200shriekingnoise(~shrieking@201.212.175.181) (Quit: Quit)
2022-06-29 10:56:56 +0200umbriel89(~umbriel89@2804:3b0:9650:d158:bc38:c0b5:5660:3a71)
2022-06-29 11:00:27 +0200Kevin578(~Kevin578@pool-173-76-179-30.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2022-06-29 11:01:08 +0200mbuf(~Shakthi@122.164.9.69)
2022-06-29 11:02:42 +0200 <umbriel89> Hello, Im having a bad time with VSCode and modules, can anyone try to help me? Im following a book, a book, and one of the exercises asked me to use System.Random, problem was, VSCode displays an error saying that "could not find the module" but the code compiles and run ok, same happens if I create a new project using stack new, VSCode says that
2022-06-29 11:02:42 +0200 <umbriel89> module Lib does not export someFunc, but it works just fine, something similar happened when I tried to use hspec, VSCode go crazy but the code runs just fine... is there something that I can do to fix this?
2022-06-29 11:04:38 +0200 <sm> #haskell-language-server is the best place to help with this
2022-06-29 11:05:42 +0200 <umbriel89> thanks
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2022-06-29 15:39:11 +0200ccntrq1(~Thunderbi@dynamic-077-001-196-087.77.1.pool.telefonica.de)
2022-06-29 15:39:24 +0200azimut(~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
2022-06-29 15:39:25 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx)
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2022-06-29 15:43:09 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
2022-06-29 15:43:09 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
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2022-06-29 15:49:31 +0200coot(~coot@213.134.190.95) (Quit: coot)
2022-06-29 15:50:17 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-06-29 15:50:21 +0200ccntrq1(~Thunderbi@2a01:c23:8c3e:fa00:d77f:2d6c:8d0d:65c6)
2022-06-29 15:50:31 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx)
2022-06-29 15:51:04 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-06-29 15:51:46 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-06-29 15:52:47 +0200ccntrq(~Thunderbi@dynamic-077-001-196-087.77.1.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-06-29 15:52:47 +0200ccntrq1ccntrq
2022-06-29 15:54:33 +0200ph88(~ph88@tmo-087-135.customers.d1-online.com)
2022-06-29 15:54:38 +0200Guest51(~Guest51@2a01cb040b7e9b00b5310dc404387ac8.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2022-06-29 15:55:17 +0200 <Guest51> @pl let f x = 5 + 8 / x in f
2022-06-29 15:55:17 +0200 <lambdabot> (5 +) . (8 /)
2022-06-29 15:55:26 +0200cosimone(~user@2001:b07:ae5:db26:57c7:21a5:6e1c:6b81) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-06-29 15:56:17 +0200cosimone(~user@2001:b07:ae5:db26:57c7:21a5:6e1c:6b81)
2022-06-29 15:56:23 +0200 <Guest51> @pl let f t = g t (y t) in f
2022-06-29 15:56:24 +0200 <lambdabot> ap g y
2022-06-29 15:56:49 +0200 <Surobaki> Hi, I´ve been working on my substitution engine for a program working in first order logic and skolemizing it. I think I´m not understanding the way pattern matching works in my usage of it on the final lines of thge program, could anyone with the time explain why the last three patterns do not allow for a `Sum _ _` to get passed in as `u´? Thanks! https://paste.tomsmeding.com/75w4zuHF
2022-06-29 15:59:08 +0200flinner(~flinner@user/flinner)
2022-06-29 15:59:50 +0200 <geekosaur> I would first add a catch-all case that printed out what it was passed; it's possible you're not getting what you think you are
2022-06-29 16:02:10 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-06-29 16:02:10 +0200 <Surobaki> geekosaur: Great idea, thanks!
2022-06-29 16:03:32 +0200Haskelytic(~Haskelyti@118.179.211.17)
2022-06-29 16:03:55 +0200flinner-(~user@user/flinner)
2022-06-29 16:04:15 +0200 <Guest51> @pl let f t = g (y t) t in f
2022-06-29 16:04:16 +0200 <lambdabot> g =<< y
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2022-06-29 16:06:01 +0200sagax(~sagax_nb@user/sagax) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2022-06-29 16:16:05 +0200ph88^(~ph88@2a01:598:d010:f83c:aca2:af1a:f07c:1cf)
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2022-06-29 16:24:03 +0200shriekingnoise(~shrieking@201.212.175.181)
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2022-06-29 16:30:04 +0200benin0(~benin@183.82.28.242) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
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2022-06-29 16:34:50 +0200ccntrq1ccntrq
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2022-06-29 16:36:59 +0200quarkyalice(~alice@user/quarkyalice) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-06-29 16:44:13 +0200arjun(~arjun@user/arjun) (Client Quit)
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2022-06-29 16:49:53 +0200quarkyalice(~alice@172.77.24.253)
2022-06-29 16:49:53 +0200quarkyalice(~alice@172.77.24.253) (Changing host)
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2022-06-29 16:50:59 +0200yrlnry(~yrlnry@pool-108-2-150-109.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
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2022-06-29 16:54:02 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-28-31.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2022-06-29 16:55:40 +0200ph88^(~ph88@tmo-087-135.customers.d1-online.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-06-29 16:57:46 +0200Haskelytic(~Haskelyti@118.179.211.17)
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2022-06-29 17:07:24 +0200dsrt^(~dsrt@50.238.66.238)
2022-06-29 17:07:54 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-06-29 17:13:22 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:fd7f:8a24:ea99:bd9b)
2022-06-29 17:14:05 +0200Surobaki(~surobaki@79.77.128.17) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-06-29 17:14:36 +0200slack1256(~slack1256@186.11.62.168)
2022-06-29 17:20:04 +0200dsrt^(~dsrt@50.238.66.238) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-06-29 17:22:37 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:8800:2d14:899c:667e) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2022-06-29 17:25:37 +0200cosimone(~user@2001:b07:ae5:db26:57c7:21a5:6e1c:6b81) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-06-29 17:56:26 +0200christiansen(~christian@83-95-137-75-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net)
2022-06-29 17:59:57 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
2022-06-29 18:00:02 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-06-29 18:00:14 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net)
2022-06-29 18:05:24 +0200merijn(~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-06-29 18:05:55 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-06-29 18:06:40 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net)
2022-06-29 18:07:05 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net) (Client Quit)
2022-06-29 18:08:11 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net)
2022-06-29 18:10:17 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net) (Client Quit)
2022-06-29 18:11:46 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@2a02:8109:abc0:6434:eff2:97d1:bc75:3a29) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-06-29 18:14:29 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-06-29 18:16:21 +0200mbuf(~Shakthi@122.164.9.69) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-06-29 18:17:33 +0200dcoutts_(~duncan@host86-150-18-54.range86-150.btcentralplus.com)
2022-06-29 18:17:33 +0200dcoutts(~duncan@host86-150-18-54.range86-150.btcentralplus.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-06-29 18:17:34 +0200Flonk(~Flonk@vps-zap441517-1.zap-srv.com) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2022-06-29 18:17:54 +0200Flonk(~Flonk@vps-zap441517-1.zap-srv.com)
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2022-06-29 18:24:42 +0200Unicorn_Princess(~Unicorn_P@93-103-228-248.dynamic.t-2.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-06-29 18:33:27 +0200coot(~coot@213.134.190.95) (Quit: coot)
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2022-06-29 18:35:01 +0200mcglk(~mcglk@131.191.49.120)
2022-06-29 18:35:01 +0200gurkenglas(~gurkengla@dslb-002-203-144-112.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
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2022-06-29 18:55:47 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
2022-06-29 18:55:47 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2022-06-29 18:56:44 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-06-29 18:58:29 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:fd7f:8a24:ea99:bd9b)
2022-06-29 18:59:56 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.52.133)
2022-06-29 19:00:44 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-06-29 19:04:34 +0200ARJ0019(~arj0019@162.218.254.7)
2022-06-29 19:05:41 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2022-06-29 19:10:06 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2022-06-29 19:11:40 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
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2022-06-29 19:17:42 +0200phma(~phma@2001:5b0:2144:56f8:f543:9add:d16f:4fe4)
2022-06-29 19:18:41 +0200ptrcmd(~ptrcmd@user/ptrcmd) (Quit: leaving)
2022-06-29 19:24:52 +0200pseigo(~pseigo@d108-173-20-33.abhsia.telus.net)
2022-06-29 19:30:00 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-06-29 19:32:27 +0200merijn(~merijn@86.86.29.250)
2022-06-29 19:32:38 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:fd7f:8a24:ea99:bd9b) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-06-29 19:39:00 +0200Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@156.34.47.253) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-06-29 19:39:06 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-28-31.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-06-29 19:39:44 +0200Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@156.34.47.253)
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2022-06-29 19:42:55 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-06-29 19:46:04 +0200Kaipei(~Kaiepi@156.34.47.253)
2022-06-29 19:49:35 +0200Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@156.34.47.253) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-06-29 19:50:36 +0200mima(~mmh@aftr-62-216-210-7.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
2022-06-29 19:51:16 +0200MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@2a02-a461-129d-1-193d-75d8-745d-e91e.fixed6.kpn.net)
2022-06-29 19:53:04 +0200ARJ0019(~arj0019@162.218.254.7) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-06-29 19:53:28 +0200ARJ0019(~arj0019@162.218.254.7)
2022-06-29 19:56:22 +0200pseigo(~pseigo@d108-173-20-33.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2022-06-29 20:04:38 +0200zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a301:3d00:39df:1c4b:8a55:48d3)
2022-06-29 20:05:38 +0200merijn(~merijn@86.86.29.250) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2022-06-29 21:50:12 +0200Guest3(~Guest3@43.21.135.77.rev.sfr.net)
2022-06-29 22:04:12 +0200EvanR_(~EvanR@user/evanr)
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2022-06-29 22:05:09 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.52.133)
2022-06-29 22:06:02 +0200EvanR(~EvanR@user/evanr) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-06-29 22:07:51 +0200Profpatsch(~Profpatsc@static.88-198-193-255.clients.your-server.de)
2022-06-29 22:08:15 +0200 <Profpatsch> Is it possible that a race (threadDelay 1000) (takeMVar varFromOtherThread) could hang on the mvar indefinitely?
2022-06-29 22:10:06 +0200 <Profpatsch> I’m not waiting that long, maybe 100ms
2022-06-29 22:11:29 +0200 <EvanR_> threadDelay and mvars should work together flawlessly
2022-06-29 22:11:42 +0200 <Profpatsch> when I set it to 1000 it seems to fire the threadDelay
2022-06-29 22:11:52 +0200 <Profpatsch> When I set it to 10000 (microsecs), it hangs on the mvar
2022-06-29 22:11:59 +0200 <Profpatsch> which is really weird
2022-06-29 22:12:12 +0200 <Profpatsch> as far as I know, this is the threaded rts
2022-06-29 22:12:36 +0200 <Profpatsch> EvanR_: maybe a weird interaction with Async?
2022-06-29 22:12:41 +0200 <Profpatsch> I can’t reproduce in ghci
2022-06-29 22:12:42 +0200Guest3(~Guest3@43.21.135.77.rev.sfr.net) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-06-29 22:13:01 +0200 <Profpatsch> EvanR_: but the MVar is written from a different Async thread
2022-06-29 22:13:16 +0200 <EvanR_> it hangs even if you write to the MVar from another thread?
2022-06-29 22:13:28 +0200 <Profpatsch> EvanR_: No, only if I don’t write
2022-06-29 22:13:33 +0200 <Profpatsch> if I write it continues
2022-06-29 22:13:35 +0200 <EvanR_> at least there's that xD
2022-06-29 22:13:37 +0200 <Profpatsch> lol
2022-06-29 22:13:48 +0200 <Profpatsch> I have two nested Async.race’s maybe that’s the reason
2022-06-29 22:14:01 +0200 <EvanR_> well that's what async was designed for
2022-06-29 22:14:11 +0200 <EvanR_> composing thread shenanigans properly
2022-06-29 22:14:28 +0200 <Profpatsch> Async.race_ (… do some stuff and write to mvar) (Async.race (threadDelay 10000) (takeMVar) >>= …)
2022-06-29 22:14:38 +0200 <EvanR_> oh
2022-06-29 22:14:39 +0200 <EvanR_> lol
2022-06-29 22:14:46 +0200 <EvanR_> do you see it yet
2022-06-29 22:14:51 +0200 <Profpatsch> not … really?
2022-06-29 22:14:57 +0200 <Profpatsch> the mvar is created outside of both
2022-06-29 22:15:15 +0200 <Profpatsch> the leftmost one is a long-running child process
2022-06-29 22:15:28 +0200 <EvanR_> hmm
2022-06-29 22:15:49 +0200 <Profpatsch> Mayybe I can get a repro going
2022-06-29 22:15:59 +0200 <EvanR_> the leftmost one is long running? it's going to get killed if it loses the race
2022-06-29 22:16:02 +0200 <Profpatsch> Just stripping away everything that’s unrelated
2022-06-29 22:16:17 +0200 <Profpatsch> EvanR_: that’s okay, it has a subprocess which should be killed as well
2022-06-29 22:16:39 +0200 <EvanR_> it can't be any longer running that the thread delay
2022-06-29 22:16:40 +0200 <Profpatsch> EvanR_: The mvar contains a (Chan a), maybe that’s related
2022-06-29 22:16:43 +0200 <EvanR_> than
2022-06-29 22:16:59 +0200 <Profpatsch> Maybe I need to be more specific
2022-06-29 22:17:07 +0200 <Profpatsch> Async.race_ (… do some stuff and write to mvar) $ Async.race (threadDelay 10000) (takeMVar) >>= …
2022-06-29 22:17:32 +0200 <Profpatsch> They are nested (longRunning, (delay, consumeLongRunning))
2022-06-29 22:18:00 +0200 <Profpatsch> So the whole right section has to finish (or the subprocess dies first then everything dies but that’s okay)
2022-06-29 22:18:16 +0200 <Profpatsch> lemme try to get a repro going
2022-06-29 22:18:43 +0200 <EvanR_> are any threads doing a tight loop that doesn't allow interruption
2022-06-29 22:19:04 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:a4ff:9938:ec1d:a54a:6688)
2022-06-29 22:19:20 +0200 <Profpatsch> EvanR_: that’s a good question, the other side uses some Conduit stuff
2022-06-29 22:19:21 +0200PiDelport(uid25146@id-25146.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2022-06-29 22:19:26 +0200 <EvanR_> in which case you need N=2 maybe
2022-06-29 22:19:28 +0200 <Profpatsch> let’s see if that’s still causing troubles if I remove it
2022-06-29 22:19:36 +0200 <Profpatsch> EvanR_: N=2?
2022-06-29 22:19:54 +0200pleo(~pleo@user/pleo) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2022-06-29 22:19:56 +0200EvanR_EvanR
2022-06-29 22:20:21 +0200 <Profpatsch> I mean
2022-06-29 22:20:25 +0200 <Profpatsch> > There is no guarantee that the thread will be rescheduled promptly when the delay has expired
2022-06-29 22:20:27 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2022-06-29 22:20:27 +0200 <lambdabot> Data constructor not in scope:
2022-06-29 22:20:27 +0200 <lambdabot> There
2022-06-29 22:20:31 +0200 <Profpatsch> from threadDelay docs
2022-06-29 22:20:43 +0200 <Profpatsch> So “not promptly” might mean indefinite :)
2022-06-29 22:20:53 +0200 <EvanR> not ime
2022-06-29 22:21:14 +0200lyle(~lyle@104.246.145.85) (Quit: WeeChat 3.5)
2022-06-29 22:21:25 +0200 <EvanR> N is the number of threads the threaded runtime uses
2022-06-29 22:21:39 +0200 <Profpatsch> oh! Maybe that’s it
2022-06-29 22:21:49 +0200 <Profpatsch> EvanR: hm, should I be using threadDelay in the first place then?
2022-06-29 22:21:54 +0200 <Profpatsch> I thought the delay was related to green threads
2022-06-29 22:21:56 +0200 <Profpatsch> not actual threads
2022-06-29 22:21:56 +0200 <EvanR> with N=1, one (forkIO) thread can hog the system if it doesn't do any memory allocation (?)
2022-06-29 22:22:35 +0200 <EvanR> threadDelay suspends the forkIO thread
2022-06-29 22:22:56 +0200 <Profpatsch> Can I suspend just the green thread?
2022-06-29 22:23:03 +0200 <EvanR> that's what forkIO is
2022-06-29 22:23:11 +0200 <Profpatsch> oh, right
2022-06-29 22:23:39 +0200 <EvanR> make sure you're using -threaded at all
2022-06-29 22:24:15 +0200mvanderhallen[m](~mvanderha@2001:470:69fc:105::2:3a88)
2022-06-29 22:24:41 +0200 <Profpatsch> I’m def using -threaded, because without it this already hanged itself: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/conduit-extra-1.3.6/docs/Data-Conduit-Process.html#v:sourcePro…
2022-06-29 22:27:26 +0200 <Profpatsch> Hm, increasing the cores doesn’t seem to help
2022-06-29 22:27:44 +0200 <Profpatsch> If +RTS -N2 -RTS is what increases the cores
2022-06-29 22:27:50 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:a4ff:9938:ec1d:a54a:6688) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-06-29 22:28:19 +0200 <geekosaur> the OS makes no guarantees that a given timeout will be strictly obeyed, unless it's a realtime thread
2022-06-29 22:28:51 +0200 <Profpatsch> geekosaur: But, like, it differs by a few ms at most
2022-06-29 22:28:55 +0200 <Profpatsch> not by indefinite
2022-06-29 22:29:14 +0200 <geekosaur> right
2022-06-29 22:29:16 +0200 <Profpatsch> I get a deadlock if the mvar is still empty
2022-06-29 22:29:19 +0200 <Profpatsch> which sounds … bad?
2022-06-29 22:29:37 +0200 <geekosaur> it shouldn't be indefinite, it's just not guaranteed to be exactly 10000 usec
2022-06-29 22:29:53 +0200 <Profpatsch> the timeout is arbitrary anyway
2022-06-29 22:29:53 +0200gustik(~gustik@2a01:c844:2457:2220:475d:34f:d571:996f)
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2022-06-29 22:31:00 +0200 <EvanR> in my experience, threadDelay wakes up a short time after you asked. with -threaded the accuracy is better. And when threadDelay never wakes up, it's a problem with my runtime options
2022-06-29 22:31:33 +0200 <geekosaur> yes
2022-06-29 22:32:11 +0200 <Profpatsch> Is there any other options besides -N that I should set?
2022-06-29 22:32:33 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-28-31.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2022-06-29 22:33:00 +0200 <geekosaur> or with one thread "hogging the system" which could be a deadlock, a failure to allocate (try -fno-omit-yields), or an FFI incorrectly marked "unsafe" (God help you)
2022-06-29 22:35:27 +0200jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d45f48.access.ecotel.net)
2022-06-29 22:37:19 +0200yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-28-31.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-06-29 22:38:42 +0200 <Profpatsch> okay lol, I had this passed to https://hackage.haskell.org/package/conduit-extra-1.3.6/docs/Data-Conduit-Process.html#v:sourcePro…
2022-06-29 22:38:50 +0200 <Profpatsch> (liftIO $ putMVar firstEvent sendEventChan)
2022-06-29 22:38:52 +0200 <Profpatsch> >> (Cond.mapM_ (\ev -> writeChan sendEventChan ev))
2022-06-29 22:39:06 +0200 <Profpatsch> The idea was that I want to fill the mvar when the process is booted up
2022-06-29 22:39:08 +0200Topsi(~Topsi@dyndsl-095-033-018-160.ewe-ip-backbone.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-06-29 22:39:26 +0200 <Profpatsch> But now I’m like: what if the conduit is only executed when the process starts sending data
2022-06-29 22:39:46 +0200 <Profpatsch> And the whole idea here was, as long as the process is not yet sending data, do the race on threadDelay
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2022-06-29 22:45:01 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@187.201.91.195)
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2022-06-29 22:49:05 +0200 <EvanR> I've never used conduit and don't know how it interacts with concurrency
2022-06-29 22:49:07 +0200pleo(~pleo@user/pleo)
2022-06-29 22:55:27 +0200shapr(~user@2600:4040:2d31:7100:3ad0:84b6:f5f:d1d0)
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2022-06-29 22:57:45 +0200 <Profpatsch> Hm, I think it was just a logic problem
2022-06-29 22:58:37 +0200fweht(uid404746@id-404746.lymington.irccloud.com)
2022-06-29 22:59:14 +0200 <Profpatsch> I need to send an initial message (this can be getting the chan from the MVar) and then race on the second message (the first message in the chan that I passed)
2022-06-29 22:59:19 +0200 <Profpatsch> Instead of racing on the mvar
2022-06-29 22:59:52 +0200 <Profpatsch> Cause the mvar will always be filled immediately (with the chan), but I want to wait on the first actual message of course
2022-06-29 23:01:22 +0200vglfr(~vglfr@88.155.52.133) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-06-29 23:04:25 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2022-06-29 23:04:51 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@187.201.91.195) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-06-29 23:05:54 +0200 <Profpatsch> hah, now it works
2022-06-29 23:06:44 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:a4ff:9938:ec1d:a54a:6688)
2022-06-29 23:07:48 +0200Flow(~none@gentoo/developer/flow) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2022-06-29 23:07:59 +0200 <EvanR> elementary dear watson
2022-06-29 23:08:29 +0200Flow(~none@gentoo/developer/flow)
2022-06-29 23:13:14 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16)
2022-06-29 23:16:47 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@dynamic-046-114-169-191.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-06-29 23:18:14 +0200nate4(~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-06-29 23:18:48 +0200 <Profpatsch> Is there a good reason Control.Concurrent.Chan doesn’t implement Functor?
2022-06-29 23:18:52 +0200 <Profpatsch> Kinda annoying
2022-06-29 23:19:26 +0200 <monochrom> Is it an immutable data structure?
2022-06-29 23:19:48 +0200polo(~Gambino@user/polo)
2022-06-29 23:21:49 +0200 <EvanR> IO is a functor, but you can't write to an IO
2022-06-29 23:22:30 +0200 <EvanR> if you fmap a Chan, there's no way to write anymore
2022-06-29 23:23:11 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@esm-84-240-99-143.netplaza.fi) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2022-06-29 23:24:22 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@esm-84-240-99-143.netplaza.fi)
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2022-06-29 23:25:35 +0200 <EvanR> it's crazy often haskell does something for a "good reason" xD
2022-06-29 23:25:45 +0200sgillespie[m](~sgillespi@2001:470:69fc:105::2:3a9d)
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2022-06-29 23:42:54 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2022-06-29 23:48:55 +0200DGMrKong(~arj0019@162.218.254.7) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-06-29 23:54:33 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@esm-84-240-99-143.netplaza.fi) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2022-06-29 23:59:30 +0200king_gs(~Thunderbi@187.201.91.195) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-06-29 23:59:38 +0200king_gs1(~Thunderbi@2806:103e:29:a4ff:9938:ec1d:a54a:6688)
2022-06-29 23:59:48 +0200Kevin578(~Kevin578@pool-173-76-179-30.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)