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2022/02/18

2022-02-18 00:02:30 +0100LiaoTao_(~LiaoTao@gateway/tor-sasl/liaotao)
2022-02-18 00:02:36 +0100LiaoTao(~LiaoTao@gateway/tor-sasl/liaotao) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-18 00:04:06 +0100sagax(~sagax_nb@user/sagax) (Excess Flood)
2022-02-18 00:04:37 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:fd00:8e82:1c4b:4222) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 00:06:58 +0100 <romesrf> is anyone feeling like helping me in an existential crisis?
2022-02-18 00:07:18 +0100 <romesrf> existential instanciation to be more precise :P
2022-02-18 00:07:24 +0100 <romesrf> instantiation*
2022-02-18 00:07:29 +0100 <geekosaur> best to just ask your question
2022-02-18 00:07:37 +0100 <romesrf> :)
2022-02-18 00:07:49 +0100 <monochrom> If TH is involved, I can't do it.
2022-02-18 00:08:10 +0100 <romesrf> monochrom: TH was an attempt to do this but I gave up on it
2022-02-18 00:08:13 +0100 <monochrom> But I'm up for both quantifiers, "for all" and "exist", I love them.
2022-02-18 00:08:20 +0100 <romesrf> that's just what I need
2022-02-18 00:08:23 +0100 <monochrom> "Good riddance" >:)
2022-02-18 00:08:23 +0100`2jt(~jtomas@130.red-88-22-46.staticip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-18 00:08:25 +0100 <romesrf> i'm setting up the minimal example
2022-02-18 00:08:27 +0100 <romesrf> AHAH
2022-02-18 00:09:43 +0100Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-02-18 00:10:55 +0100 <dminuoso> monochrom: Re: join as a method of Monad, shouldn't that be possible with QuantifiedConstraints now?
2022-02-18 00:11:12 +0100michalz(~michalz@185.246.204.57) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 00:11:24 +0100 <monochrom> Let me take a look at that extension again...
2022-02-18 00:11:41 +0100burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-021.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2022-02-18 00:11:47 +0100 <geekosaur> it may enable it in some sense but it doesn'tcause join to become a method
2022-02-18 00:12:05 +0100burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-021.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 00:12:12 +0100burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-021.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2022-02-18 00:14:18 +0100lambdabot(~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 00:14:30 +0100 <monochrom> I think I don't see how to use it for join, heh.
2022-02-18 00:14:31 +0100orcus(~orcus@user/brprice) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2022-02-18 00:14:53 +0100dispater(~dispater@user/brprice) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 00:14:58 +0100 <dminuoso> https://ryanglscott.github.io/2018/03/04/how-quantifiedconstraints-can-let-us-put-join-back-in-mon…
2022-02-18 00:15:43 +0100 <dminuoso> It's a subtle story why join isn't already part of Monad.
2022-02-18 00:15:53 +0100alx741(~alx741@181.199.42.143)
2022-02-18 00:16:00 +0100 <monochrom> For now I just have a top-level adaptor that converts join to bind. Then when I define a local join for my free monad definition, and give it to the adaptor to obtain >>=.
2022-02-18 00:16:02 +0100 <Inst[m]> okay, now i'm interested
2022-02-18 00:16:16 +0100lbseale(~ep1ctetus@user/ep1ctetus) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-02-18 00:16:37 +0100mniip(mniip@libera/staff/mniip) (Ping timeout: 606 seconds)
2022-02-18 00:19:03 +0100 <monochrom> No worries dminuoso, the incovenience to me is very very minor, and my current context is a fringe theoretical one. "This is fine." :)
2022-02-18 00:19:03 +0100alp_(~alp@user/alp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-02-18 00:19:48 +0100 <monochrom> But thanks too, I can see how the type of join is very difficult for automatic deriving mechanisms.
2022-02-18 00:20:15 +0100alx741(~alx741@181.199.42.143) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 00:20:26 +0100lambdabot(~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu)
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2022-02-18 00:20:38 +0100orcus(~orcus@user/brprice)
2022-02-18 00:22:32 +0100 <monochrom> Yeah you need to think at the level of "I have a natural transformation from Compose m m to m", which needs a "forall x".
2022-02-18 00:23:09 +0100dispater(~dispater@user/brprice)
2022-02-18 00:24:25 +0100mniip(mniip@libera/staff/mniip)
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2022-02-18 00:33:03 +0100 <romesrf> hahah, i fixed the existential thing on my own
2022-02-18 00:33:25 +0100cynomys(~cynomys@user/cynomys)
2022-02-18 00:33:41 +0100 <romesrf> woohoo! nothing beats the clarity of explaining your own problem in its minimal form
2022-02-18 00:35:28 +0100 <romesrf> If anyone's curious: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Z4PXyu6K
2022-02-18 00:36:04 +0100jackson99(~bc8147f2@cerf.good1.com) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout))
2022-02-18 00:37:17 +0100alx741(~alx741@181.199.42.143)
2022-02-18 00:38:03 +0100 <monochrom> heh
2022-02-18 00:39:00 +0100Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:890f:d3a0:aab0:f3f) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-18 00:39:38 +0100 <ski> ok, rank-2
2022-02-18 00:40:39 +0100waleee(~waleee@h-98-128-229-110.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
2022-02-18 00:41:35 +0100alx741(~alx741@181.199.42.143) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 00:41:44 +0100 <ski> romesrf : did you mean to only call `unThing thing2 x', but not `unThing thing1 x' ?
2022-02-18 00:42:12 +0100 <romesrf> ski: rank-2 :)
2022-02-18 00:42:23 +0100 <romesrf> i meant to call both unthings with the same x
2022-02-18 00:42:35 +0100 <ski> (or perhaps you don't have a pair there, in your real code)
2022-02-18 00:42:59 +0100 <romesrf> I do have a pair, unfortunately I could not do a heterogeneous list (i tried ahah)
2022-02-18 00:43:05 +0100 <ski> % forM_ (0,1) print
2022-02-18 00:43:06 +0100 <yahb> ski: 1
2022-02-18 00:43:10 +0100 <ski> % forM_ [0,1] print
2022-02-18 00:43:10 +0100 <romesrf> OOPS
2022-02-18 00:43:10 +0100 <yahb> ski: 0; 1
2022-02-18 00:43:16 +0100 <romesrf> well, that's a great bug
2022-02-18 00:43:51 +0100 <romesrf> ski: if somehow you can do a list instead of a pair in my example, by all means let me know :)
2022-02-18 00:44:19 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@24.105.81.50) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-02-18 00:44:22 +0100 <ski> you could pass `[exists i b. Thing (Thing i CommonThing) b]' ?
2022-02-18 00:44:53 +0100 <monochrom> existential crisis turned into universal crisis
2022-02-18 00:45:19 +0100 <ski> (btw, i have no idea at all what this code is supposed to do (or rather, the code it's some kind of condensed example from))
2022-02-18 00:45:33 +0100 <Sqaure> i was playing around a bit here. I had this simple record "Moo" that i extended with a type function like this : data Moo (a :: * -> *) = Moo { fld1 :: a Int, fld2 :: a Bool } . Now can i write StandaloneDeriving Show instance for this?
2022-02-18 00:45:55 +0100 <Sqaure> ...and Eq for that matter
2022-02-18 00:47:00 +0100 <ski> deriving instance (forall a. Show a => Show (f a)) => Show (Moo f) -- maybe ?
2022-02-18 00:47:34 +0100 <ski> deriving instance (Show (f Int),Show (f Bool)) => Show (Moo f) -- or ? (leaks more details)
2022-02-18 00:48:31 +0100 <Sqaure> ski, thanks. The first one worked great
2022-02-18 00:49:50 +0100 <ski> romesrf : hm, i guess you'd be looking for something `zip'py ..
2022-02-18 00:49:58 +0100 <ski> @yow
2022-02-18 00:49:58 +0100 <lambdabot> JAPAN is a WONDERFUL planet -- I wonder if we'll ever reach their level
2022-02-18 00:49:58 +0100 <lambdabot> of COMPARATIVE SHOPPING ...
2022-02-18 00:50:15 +0100 <Axman6> makes you think
2022-02-18 00:50:38 +0100 <ski> hm. the later versions didn't zip, though
2022-02-18 00:52:16 +0100 <romesrf> ski: but `exists` doesn't exist right? (oh, the irony)
2022-02-18 00:52:22 +0100 <ski> so ?
2022-02-18 00:52:44 +0100 <Axman6> (forall exists. exists -> r)
2022-02-18 00:52:56 +0100 <ski> you'll just have to encode it, in the usual way
2022-02-18 00:53:12 +0100 <Inst[m]> what the fuck at lambdabot
2022-02-18 00:53:13 +0100 <romesrf> I haven't done it before, what's the path to enlightnment?
2022-02-18 00:53:19 +0100 <ski> (the CPS way doesn't really make sense here .. unless you'd want to CPS the list as well, which you presumably don't)
2022-02-18 00:53:45 +0100 <Inst[m]> what's the use of CPS? IIRC, CPS is a syntactical pattern where you design functions to take another function that takes the result
2022-02-18 00:53:53 +0100 <Inst[m]> bleh, i can always harass colin about it
2022-02-18 00:53:58 +0100 <ski> you want a type, say `SomeThing', which amounts to `exists i b. Thing (Thing i CommonThing) b'
2022-02-18 00:54:05 +0100 <ski> so, let's say you want a data constructor
2022-02-18 00:54:17 +0100 <ski> MkSomeThing :: (exists i b. Thing (Thing i CommonThing) b) -> SomeThing
2022-02-18 00:54:25 +0100 <ski> bow, logically speaking, this is equivalent to
2022-02-18 00:54:34 +0100 <ski> MkSomeThing :: forall i b. Thing (Thing i CommonThing) b -> SomeThing
2022-02-18 00:54:43 +0100 <ski> or, if you prefer being more explicit
2022-02-18 00:54:47 +0100 <ski> MkSomeThing :: forall i b. (Thing (Thing i CommonThing) b -> SomeThing)
2022-02-18 00:55:01 +0100 <ski> so, using `GADTSyntax', you can now declare
2022-02-18 00:55:04 +0100 <ski> data SomeThing
2022-02-18 00:55:06 +0100 <ski> where
2022-02-18 00:55:13 +0100 <ski> MkSomeThing :: forall i b. Thing (Thing i CommonThing) b -> SomeThing
2022-02-18 00:55:23 +0100 <ski> or you can elide the `forall' here, so just
2022-02-18 00:55:29 +0100 <ski> MkSomeThing :: Thing (Thing i CommonThing) b -> SomeThing
2022-02-18 00:55:33 +0100 <romesrf> ski: that's really interesting, I'm going to play around with it
2022-02-18 00:55:40 +0100 <romesrf> thank you for the explanation
2022-02-18 00:55:44 +0100 <ski> or, you can use the `ExistentialQuantification' syntax, which looks like
2022-02-18 00:55:59 +0100 <ski> data SomeThing = forall i b. MkSomeThing (Thing (Thing i CommonThing) b)
2022-02-18 00:56:26 +0100 <ski> (perhaps you'd like to make that `CommonThing' a parameter of `SomeThing' .. i dunno)
2022-02-18 00:56:51 +0100 <romesrf> ic ic
2022-02-18 00:57:14 +0100 <ski> Inst[m] : with CPS, if you want to encode
2022-02-18 00:57:45 +0100 <ski> computeSomeThing :: Foo -> exists i b. Thing (Thing i CommonThing) b
2022-02-18 00:57:47 +0100 <romesrf> btw, ski, this example comes from my chat bots: a Bot is i -> m o, and a BotServer is just a Bot that takes a bot and produces a runnable application :P
2022-02-18 00:57:51 +0100 <ski> you'd do that as
2022-02-18 00:58:11 +0100 <ski> withSomeThing :: Foo -> (forall i b. Thing (Thing i CommonThing) b -> o) -> o
2022-02-18 00:58:39 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 01:00:32 +0100 <ski> (seeing as `a' is equivalent to `forall o. (a -> o) -> o' (the `forall o.' was implicit in the type signature above), and so `exists x. ..x..' is equivalent to `forall o. ((exists x. ..x..) -> o) -> o', which is equivalent to `forall o. (forall x. ..x.. -> o) -> o', because `(exists x. ..x..) -> ...' is equivalent to `forall x. ..x.. -> ...' (which i used with `MkSomeThing' above))
2022-02-18 01:00:49 +0100waleee(~waleee@h-98-128-229-110.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-18 01:01:22 +0100 <romesrf> wow :-)
2022-02-18 01:02:28 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 01:02:49 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-027.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-02-18 01:02:55 +0100 <ski> the CPS way of encoding existentials tends to be more useful, when the caller wants to unpack the existential right away, while the "existential data constructor" way (using `ExistentialQuantification' (a misnomer) or `GADTs') tends to be more useful when you want to put the abstracted value(s) away in a data structure
2022-02-18 01:03:04 +0100 <ski> (in your case, you're putting them inside a list)
2022-02-18 01:03:25 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2022-02-18 01:03:35 +0100 <ski> @help yow
2022-02-18 01:03:35 +0100 <lambdabot> yow. The zippy man.
2022-02-18 01:03:37 +0100 <ski> Inst[m] ^
2022-02-18 01:04:32 +0100 <geekosaur> look up "zippy the pinhead"
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2022-02-18 01:09:42 +0100 <romesrf> I've got an extension of my original problem: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/o1cdybzw
2022-02-18 01:10:27 +0100doyougnu(~doyougnu@cpe-67-249-83-190.twcny.res.rr.com)
2022-02-18 01:10:54 +0100 <romesrf> now my higher order function is restricted by a runThings'' :: (forall a. Constr a => Thing a CommonThing) -> (Thing (Thing i CommonThing) b, Thing (Thing i' CommonThing) b') -> IO ()
2022-02-18 01:11:16 +0100 <romesrf> in the body I instantiate that `a` to both `i` and `i'`
2022-02-18 01:11:32 +0100 <ski> you forgot to mention (Constr i,Constr i') =>
2022-02-18 01:11:37 +0100 <romesrf> so I added the constraints `(Constr i, Constr i') => `
2022-02-18 01:12:07 +0100 <romesrf> what's interesting is that it seems to solve the problem for `i'`, but it remains for `i`
2022-02-18 01:12:39 +0100 <ski> how do you mean ?
2022-02-18 01:12:44 +0100 <romesrf> try to compile the program
2022-02-18 01:12:57 +0100 <ski> you're only using the second component of the pair
2022-02-18 01:13:03 +0100 <romesrf> AH
2022-02-18 01:13:10 +0100 <romesrf> I'm sorry
2022-02-18 01:13:29 +0100 <ski> forM_ ((thing1, x), (thing2, x)) (uncurry unThing) = unThing thing2 x
2022-02-18 01:13:31 +0100 <romesrf> Thank you one more time, I was still trying to fix the function type so I forgot about that
2022-02-18 01:15:33 +0100waleee(~waleee@h-98-128-229-110.na.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-18 01:15:39 +0100 <ski> forM_ things (\(MkSomeThing thing) -> unThing thing x) -- you want something along these lines ?
2022-02-18 01:15:57 +0100 <romesrf> yes, I'm typing it out :-)
2022-02-18 01:16:22 +0100 <ski> (no need to muck about with pairing each of them with `x', prior to the `forM_')
2022-02-18 01:16:39 +0100 <romesrf> I'll even write it point-free ;)
2022-02-18 01:16:50 +0100skiglances around nervously
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2022-02-18 02:43:09 +0100 <alexfmpe[m]> are injective type families (TypeFamilyDependencies) on associated type families a thing?
2022-02-18 02:44:45 +0100 <edwardk> i've used injectivity annotations on class associated type families
2022-02-18 02:45:05 +0100 <edwardk> alexfmpe[m]: https://github.com/ekmett/linear-logic/blob/main/src/Linear/Logic/Internal.hs#L58
2022-02-18 02:45:19 +0100 <edwardk> alexfmpe[m]: does that help?
2022-02-18 02:45:25 +0100lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2022-02-18 02:46:21 +0100 <alexfmpe[m]> huh yeah that's exactly what I wanted
2022-02-18 02:46:31 +0100 <alexfmpe[m]> could have sworn I had tried this exact syntax and got told to take a hike by ghc
2022-02-18 02:46:51 +0100 <alexfmpe[m]> ah, think I had missed the `= c` bit
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2022-02-18 03:04:28 +0100 <edwardk> the main thing that annoys me about them is that i really want type family dependencies to be able to refer to some of the parameters.
2022-02-18 03:04:38 +0100 <edwardk> type Foo a b = c | c a -> b
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2022-02-18 03:05:17 +0100 <edwardk> this isn't just an academic ask, because when you start mucking around with polykinds, you often don't have a choice
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2022-02-18 06:48:26 +0100dons(~dons@202-153-213-48.ca99d5.syd.static.aussiebb.net)
2022-02-18 06:48:35 +0100 <dons> @yow
2022-02-18 06:48:35 +0100 <lambdabot> Well, here I am in AMERICA.. I LIKE it. I HATE it. I LIKE it. I
2022-02-18 06:48:36 +0100 <lambdabot> HATE it. I LIKE it. I HATE it. I LIKE it. I HATE it. I LIKE ...
2022-02-18 06:48:36 +0100 <lambdabot> EMOTIONS are SWEEPING over me!!
2022-02-18 06:50:19 +0100dons(~dons@202-153-213-48.ca99d5.syd.static.aussiebb.net) (Changing host)
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2022-02-18 06:51:06 +0100slowButPresent(~slowButPr@user/slowbutpresent) (Quit: leaving)
2022-02-18 06:51:59 +0100 <sm> dons attack!
2022-02-18 06:52:06 +0100 <sm> tcard: hi! thanks for the great https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books list. I think https://pragprog.com/titles/rshaskell/effective-haskell is one you don't have.
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2022-02-18 07:04:15 +0100 <dons> back doing some open source haskell again, so thought best to pop in the chan.
2022-02-18 07:04:33 +0100 <glguy> neat, welcome back
2022-02-18 07:05:03 +0100 <dons> whehey glguy
2022-02-18 07:05:33 +0100takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
2022-02-18 07:05:46 +0100 <glguy> What corner of the open source haskell world will be lucky enough to have your attention? :)
2022-02-18 07:08:14 +0100 <dons> i'm working on code search, code navigation things on top of glean. currently all in the fb/meta ecosystem (in particular https://github.com/facebookincubator/Glean/tree/main/glean/glass/Glean/Glass ). most likely IDE things (LSPs, vs code plugins)
2022-02-18 07:08:32 +0100 <dons> "applied" open source
2022-02-18 07:08:44 +0100[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 07:09:16 +0100 <dons> so the main thing would be navigation and search support on top of glean for very large code bases that can't be navigated by normal LSPs
2022-02-18 07:09:32 +0100 <dons> poking around that sort of area. probably need to write some typescript
2022-02-18 07:09:43 +0100 <glguy> How big are the very-large code bases you're targetting?
2022-02-18 07:09:59 +0100 <dolio> Whoa.
2022-02-18 07:10:23 +0100 <Axman6> How exciting. I'd love to have glean working for DAML (which is basically just Haskell++) - our codebase is massive and navigating it sucks
2022-02-18 07:10:37 +0100 <dons> i guess anywhere 'find-refs' takes >5s or jump-to-definition takes >1s. depends a bit on the LSP. "large" (i.e. >10M loc?)
2022-02-18 07:10:59 +0100 <dons> its a bit dependent on the language/LSP support where performance breaks down + how many users. the obivous target is v. large C++ code base
2022-02-18 07:11:19 +0100 <dons> right, daml wouldn't be too hard. there's already a well used haskell schema in glean
2022-02-18 07:11:34 +0100 <Axman6> god if only it took 5s to jump to def for us!
2022-02-18 07:11:52 +0100echoreply(~echoreply@2001:19f0:9002:1f3b:5400:ff:fe6f:8b8d) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2022-02-18 07:11:54 +0100 <dons> so that's another angle -> just do basic IDE support for a language that doesn't have it already, or as a backend for editors without good stuff (imagine vim navigation backend)
2022-02-18 07:11:58 +0100 <Axman6> is the haskell schema open source? I feel like I couldn't find it when I went looking... or I'm just dumb
2022-02-18 07:12:08 +0100texasmynsted_(~texasmyns@99.96.221.112)
2022-02-18 07:12:18 +0100 <dons> all the schemas are. the indexers aren't (only flow/js and hack i think, c++ is in the works)
2022-02-18 07:12:43 +0100 <dons> https://github.com/facebookincubator/Glean/blob/main/glean/schema/source/hs.angle
2022-02-18 07:12:48 +0100echoreply(~echoreply@45.32.163.16)
2022-02-18 07:13:02 +0100 <dons> the haskell indexer is basically a script to process .hie files
2022-02-18 07:13:13 +0100 <dons> similar in rust. you just dump compiler knowledge to json
2022-02-18 07:13:17 +0100texasmynsted(~texasmyns@99.96.221.112) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-18 07:13:18 +0100_xor(~xor@dsl-50-5-233-169.fuse.net)
2022-02-18 07:13:19 +0100 <Axman6> pretty sure the DAML compiler can output .hie files too...
2022-02-18 07:13:24 +0100drdo(~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2022-02-18 07:13:29 +0100 <Axman6> hmm, would have to check that
2022-02-18 07:13:43 +0100hueso(~root@user/hueso) (Quit: hueso)
2022-02-18 07:13:50 +0100 <Axman6> anyway, it's good to see you around dons, your blog was a huge inspiration to me when I was learning Haskell at ANU
2022-02-18 07:14:07 +0100 <dons> :)
2022-02-18 07:15:15 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 07:15:17 +0100drdo(~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu)
2022-02-18 07:15:19 +0100codolio(~dolio@130.44.130.54)
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2022-02-18 07:16:17 +0100 <chronon> Which blog is that? I shold check it out for myself if it comes so highly reommended.
2022-02-18 07:20:52 +0100hueso(~root@user/hueso)
2022-02-18 07:23:00 +0100lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
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2022-02-18 07:31:51 +0100 <Axman6> pretty sure this has all the archives still: https://donsbot.com
2022-02-18 07:42:34 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
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2022-02-18 07:56:35 +0100 <sm> Axman6: how long does jump to reference take you now ?
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2022-02-18 07:57:10 +0100 <Axman6> references, or jump to definition?
2022-02-18 07:57:11 +0100 <sm> s/ref/def/
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2022-02-18 07:57:24 +0100 <Axman6> it depends a lot on the file, can be like 10 seconds
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2022-02-18 08:02:30 +0100 <Axman6> but I thnk a lot of that is because the daml ide, which has fed into haskell-ide-engine hasn't kept up with HIE, so some of the important performance improvements its had haven't been ported back across
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2022-02-18 08:25:10 +0100 <tcard> sm: Thank you!
2022-02-18 08:25:17 +0100 <tcard> sm: The index only includes books that have been published (are complete).
2022-02-18 08:25:24 +0100 <tcard> sm: Effective Haskell is currently in beta, with the final version expected in October 2022.
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2022-02-18 08:49:38 +0100 <ski> oh, a wild dons appeared !
2022-02-18 08:49:59 +0100 <ski> @quote dons
2022-02-18 08:49:59 +0100 <lambdabot> dons says: Haskell more popular than Lisp, Scheme, OCaml and SML put together!
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2022-02-18 11:10:06 +0100wonko-(~wjc@user/wonko)
2022-02-18 11:11:31 +0100 <dminuoso> glguy: There's one missing feature about config-value: A suitable nix config generator. It turns out even with your most recent addition, some YAML formatters generate plain JSON, others feed JSON into yq which removes all double quotes..
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2022-02-18 11:14:03 +0100 <dminuoso> One compromise Im thinking of is to introduce a new PrimValueSpec `SpecificTextSpec :: Text -> PrimValueSpec ()`, so we can do atoms but with strings instead. Then, we just need a YAML formatter that consistently puts out double quotes.
2022-02-18 11:14:14 +0100 <dminuoso> That would also seamingly fit into nix
2022-02-18 11:14:21 +0100 <dminuoso> *seamingless
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2022-02-18 11:46:11 +0100 <chronon> dminuoso, there's more than one yq. Which one are you referring to?
2022-02-18 11:46:25 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 11:49:38 +0100dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net)
2022-02-18 11:55:00 +0100 <chronon> Wow, there are a *lot* of books on Haskell. Which books would people here recommend for an experienced programmer with little to no experience of functional programming?
2022-02-18 11:55:18 +0100 <chronon> You'll probably say that's an oxymoron, right? :-)
2022-02-18 11:59:58 +0100 <merijn> chronon: tbh, the same ones as for complete beginners :)
2022-02-18 12:01:12 +0100 <chronon> I often find books aimed at complete beginners spend too much time labouring the point on basic stuff, which is fine, but if boredom sets in then the book won't get read.
2022-02-18 12:01:36 +0100 <chronon> I like a fast paced and challenging read, because the very challenge of it keeps me motivated.
2022-02-18 12:01:59 +0100 <merijn> chronon: In many ways learning Haskell as exerpeinced feels the opposite to other languages. Where normally you get a "head start" where you get to reuse a lot you know, you can't really reuse anything you know at the start, but as you get further you get more use out of your experience (arrays, maps, etc. and advanced data structures are the same everywhere)
2022-02-18 12:02:27 +0100 <chronon> Right.
2022-02-18 12:02:43 +0100 <chronon> Does it count that I am pretty good at jq?
2022-02-18 12:02:46 +0100 <merijn> chronon: tbh, if you like it "fast and painful" and are somewhat used to like, browsing/scanning specs like the C spec, etc. you could try the tutorial + report way :p
2022-02-18 12:03:07 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 12:03:14 +0100 <merijn> But...
2022-02-18 12:03:17 +0100 <merijn> @quote Brend whoever
2022-02-18 12:03:17 +0100 <lambdabot> Brend says: Whoever chose the title "A Gentle Introduction to Haskell" is obviously accustomed to wrestling bears in piranha pits or something.
2022-02-18 12:03:25 +0100 <merijn> @where tutorial
2022-02-18 12:03:25 +0100 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/tutorial/
2022-02-18 12:03:28 +0100 <merijn> @where report
2022-02-18 12:03:28 +0100 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/ (more: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Definition)
2022-02-18 12:03:53 +0100 <merijn> As far as language specs go, the Haskell Report is one of the most readable ones ever written :p
2022-02-18 12:04:52 +0100 <chronon> Yes, I must say I often prefer leaning heavily on spec to get the nitty gritty that books tend to gloss over. But it is still valuable to have a book take you through the core concepts in the right order so you don't get lost during the botostepping phase.
2022-02-18 12:05:00 +0100off^(~off@12.163.216.98) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-18 12:05:02 +0100 <chronon> boot strapping
2022-02-18 12:05:05 +0100 <[exa]> chronon: you might experience fast-paced and challenging removal of no-longer-valid habits from other programming languages
2022-02-18 12:05:08 +0100 <merijn> "Haskell from First Principles" is comprehensive, but, eh, rather verbose
2022-02-18 12:05:08 +0100 <maerwald> merijn: I think the Go "spec" is more readable
2022-02-18 12:05:14 +0100 <merijn> and slow
2022-02-18 12:05:31 +0100 <merijn> Possiblye the Bird and Hutton books are better, since I think they're fairly short in comparison?
2022-02-18 12:05:39 +0100 <merijn> @where books
2022-02-18 12:05:39 +0100 <lambdabot> https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books, see also @where LYAH, RWH, YAHT, SOE, HR, PIH, TFwH, wikibook, PCPH, HPFFP, HTAC, TwT, FoP, PFAD, WYAH, non-haskell-books
2022-02-18 12:05:41 +0100 <chronon> Verbose is a kill, it should be tight and focussed, and demonstrate exciting things along the way.
2022-02-18 12:05:43 +0100 <merijn> @where tfwh
2022-02-18 12:05:44 +0100 <lambdabot> "Thinking Functionally with Haskell" by Richard Bird in Oct 2014 at <http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/publications/books/functional/>
2022-02-18 12:05:52 +0100 <merijn> @where PIH
2022-02-18 12:05:52 +0100 <lambdabot> "Programming in Haskell" by Graham Hutton in 2007-01-15,2016-09-01 at <http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/pih.html>
2022-02-18 12:06:35 +0100 <merijn> chronon: Sadly, the things that are (long-term) exciting appear very boring in the short term :p
2022-02-18 12:06:42 +0100Kaipi(~Kaiepi@156.34.47.253) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-02-18 12:06:56 +0100 <merijn> Except maybe recursive fibonacci, which stays exciting foreve :p
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2022-02-18 12:07:04 +0100Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@156.34.47.253)
2022-02-18 12:07:22 +0100jonathanx(~jonathan@h-178-174-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se)
2022-02-18 12:07:24 +0100 <merijn> > let fibonacci = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibonacci (drop 1 fibonacci) in fibonacci
2022-02-18 12:07:25 +0100 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
2022-02-18 12:07:26 +0100 <chronon> You mean doubly recursive Fibbonacci? I thought that was a known tarpit.
2022-02-18 12:07:31 +0100off^(~off@12.163.216.98)
2022-02-18 12:07:42 +0100 <merijn> chronon: Naah, double recursive fibonacci is boring and slow :)
2022-02-18 12:08:16 +0100 <chronon> Singly recursive fibbonacci is just a disguised loop though.
2022-02-18 12:08:18 +0100 <merijn> > let fibonacci = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibonacci (drop 1 fibonacci) in drop 10000 fibonacci
2022-02-18 12:08:20 +0100 <lambdabot> [336447648764317832666216120051075433103021484606800639065647699746800814421...
2022-02-18 12:08:24 +0100 <merijn> hmm
2022-02-18 12:08:34 +0100 <merijn> I seem to have underestimated how fast fibonacci numbers get big xD
2022-02-18 12:08:46 +0100 <merijn> Can't even fit a single result
2022-02-18 12:08:55 +0100 <merijn> Pleasantly fast, though!
2022-02-18 12:09:05 +0100 <chronon> Cool indeed.
2022-02-18 12:09:12 +0100 <byorgey> F(n) is approximately phi^n, where phi = (1 + sqrt 5)/2
2022-02-18 12:09:38 +0100 <byorgey> phi^10000 is going to have... thousands of digits, I guess
2022-02-18 12:09:43 +0100 <chronon> Which of the two books you recommended do you think is the more motivational read, keeping the pace and excitement up?
2022-02-18 12:09:55 +0100 <[exa]> chronon: what languages do you know now?
2022-02-18 12:10:17 +0100 <merijn> chronon: tbh, I read neither of them. But both are written by people who've been teaching Haskell at uni for ages, so...
2022-02-18 12:10:18 +0100 <chronon> Well, jq is the only functional language and it's obviously nothing like Haskell.
2022-02-18 12:10:36 +0100 <[exa]> jq?
2022-02-18 12:10:43 +0100 <[exa]> oh the json query tool?
2022-02-18 12:10:53 +0100 <[exa]> I mean also non-functional languages :]
2022-02-18 12:11:20 +0100 <chronon> I know quite a wide range of different languages with different approaches, some quite esoteric by today's standards. I've done a smattering of all the common modern general purpose langauges.
2022-02-18 12:11:48 +0100 <chronon> Yes, jq the json based language.
2022-02-18 12:13:14 +0100 <chronon> Actualy I enjoy learning odd languages. I wrote a mini Turing maching language, and then wrote some programs in it, for example. I have high confidence that I can program in anything.
2022-02-18 12:13:37 +0100 <[exa]> I'd give a shot to LYAH, you can skip the first few sections and you should be able to make your own small exercises as well I guess, and it's a quick read with pictures
2022-02-18 12:14:07 +0100 <chronon> So yes, a book recommendation that never talks down to the reader, keeps the pace up, throws in a bit of humour and excitement, would all be good.
2022-02-18 12:14:19 +0100 <[exa]> oh yes it has funny pictures
2022-02-18 12:16:22 +0100 <chronon> So final recommendation for a fast fun read would be "Learn You a Haskell"????
2022-02-18 12:16:36 +0100 <[exa]> if you need examples/exercises for anything, it's useful to pick them from another book or typeclassopaedia or something. the point of LYAH is that it throws you over the initial learning shock quite quickly, and if you struggle you can always come here :D
2022-02-18 12:16:56 +0100 <chronon> Ok, sounds good.
2022-02-18 12:17:15 +0100jalil(~jalil@2a01:e0a:277:4100:5321:349f:8c6a:80f8)
2022-02-18 12:17:36 +0100 <[exa]> just remember to try everything, lyah unfortunately doesn't come with many exercises that would make the stuff 'intuitive'
2022-02-18 12:17:43 +0100 <chronon> 290 pages. Nice.
2022-02-18 12:17:44 +0100 <merijn> LYAH is kinda bad, imo
2022-02-18 12:17:50 +0100 <[exa]> I expected this ^
2022-02-18 12:17:51 +0100 <[exa]> D
2022-02-18 12:17:53 +0100 <[exa]> :D
2022-02-18 12:18:01 +0100 <merijn> It's great at showing some fun things
2022-02-18 12:18:03 +0100 <chronon> Oh really, what is your view on it?
2022-02-18 12:18:17 +0100 <merijn> but bad at teaching you how to *do* something with those things
2022-02-18 12:18:20 +0100 <chronon> That's a good start. Showing off fun things creates motivation.
2022-02-18 12:18:48 +0100 <chronon> So if you had to choose one, other than LYAH, which would it be?
2022-02-18 12:19:21 +0100 <merijn> The Hutton or Bird books are probably a safe bet and should be fairly short too
2022-02-18 12:19:26 +0100 <merijn> But a bit more rigorous
2022-02-18 12:19:58 +0100Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-02-18 12:20:22 +0100 <chronon> Ok, I'll check out all three and see how I go. Thanks guys!
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2022-02-18 12:23:08 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 12:24:22 +0100 <dminuoso> chronon: Okay, I skipped some gory details because they were not relevant to the discussion
2022-02-18 12:25:04 +0100 <dminuoso> chronon: Right now the best path I have is using json2yaml (the deprecated haskell package), and then into yq-go
2022-02-18 12:25:05 +0100ph88^(~ph88@ip5f5af71f.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2022-02-18 12:25:30 +0100 <dminuoso> This is because yc-go with `.. style="double"` will keep double quots around the attribute names
2022-02-18 12:25:42 +0100 <dminuoso> If the input is just json
2022-02-18 12:26:26 +0100 <dminuoso> Or I guess I could use yq-go twice
2022-02-18 12:26:41 +0100 <dminuoso> Yes that would actually work out nicely
2022-02-18 12:26:41 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 12:27:16 +0100 <chronon> But isn't the point of YAML that is drops all such unnecessary verbosity? I would only wish to quote keys with spaces or other special chars in them, and who names their keys like that anyway?
2022-02-18 12:27:32 +0100 <dminuoso> chronon: So my target config language is not YAML but config-value
2022-02-18 12:27:53 +0100 <dminuoso> Which due to a recent request accepts one style that happens to be valid YAML.
2022-02-18 12:28:15 +0100 <chronon> Ah.
2022-02-18 12:28:43 +0100 <dminuoso> So if you can make your YAML formatter output that exact format, then you can use nix `builtins.toJSON`, feed it into jq-go first to get the "unacceptable" yaml with double quotes removed on both attr names and values, and then into yq-go again to put quotes on the values back
2022-02-18 12:28:54 +0100ph88_(~ph88@2a02:8109:9e00:71d0:885b:9523:dc87:45b3) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-02-18 12:29:01 +0100 <dminuoso> chronon: THe thing is, in config-value `foo` and `"foo"` are separate things. the first is considered an atom, the latter a text.
2022-02-18 12:29:19 +0100 <dminuoso> So strictly speaking the casual YAML output is syntactically valid config-value, but most likely not what you want
2022-02-18 12:30:07 +0100 <chronon> I see.
2022-02-18 12:30:41 +0100 <chronon> I always liked what YAML was trying to achieve, but disliked the complexity that they came up with.
2022-02-18 12:30:45 +0100 <dminuoso> Are you familiar with nix/nixos?
2022-02-18 12:31:05 +0100 <chronon> Only in passing. I'm very curious about it though.
2022-02-18 12:31:37 +0100 <chronon> Perhpas once I am up to speed with Haskell I shall start to "get" what nixos is all about.
2022-02-18 12:32:07 +0100 <dminuoso> Skipping loads of information, but broadly you can define an nested attribute set comfortably by just saying `{ foo.bar.quux = [1 2]; foo.bar.baz = "foobar"; }`
2022-02-18 12:33:19 +0100 <dminuoso> And not only that, but in nixos modules you get merging semantics, so you can define dafault values, and simply "update" some nested config by just saying `{ foo.settings.my.config = "I want this instead"; }`. So if we could say `settings` is an arbitrary nix type that is just turned into the correct output format
2022-02-18 12:33:26 +0100szkl(uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2022-02-18 12:33:44 +0100 <chronon> Sounds nice.
2022-02-18 12:33:48 +0100 <dminuoso> So now I dont need to keep the nixos settings in sync with whatever my program accepts, and I can directly match my nix expressions in
2022-02-18 12:34:18 +0100 <dminuoso> config-schema/config-value gets me the benefit of applicatively parsing and automatically verifying it against a schema
2022-02-18 12:34:40 +0100 <dminuoso> so yeah.. Im just missing out on atoms right now
2022-02-18 12:34:59 +0100 <chronon> I am intrigued to see tha Bird's book Programming Haskell went from just 171 pages to 318 between 1st and 2nd edition. That's a lot to add that hadn't seemed essential first time round.
2022-02-18 12:35:11 +0100 <dminuoso> (their usecase is usually for enums where you know the possbile values beforehand, so the doc generator or error diagnostics can tell you about it)
2022-02-18 12:36:03 +0100 <dminuoso> i.e. `mode: sensitive` where mode might be any of `min`, `max`, `sensitive`, `interactive`, moderate`
2022-02-18 12:36:09 +0100jpds(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 12:36:13 +0100 <chronon> Oh, time passed, I gotta go, sorry. Bye.
2022-02-18 12:36:33 +0100jpds(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds)
2022-02-18 12:37:40 +0100 <absence> occasionally i stumble across "fmap join . traverse f" or "fmap join . sequenceA", and i wonder if this is a structure/concept that has a name, or if it's just one of those coincidental patterns?
2022-02-18 12:38:03 +0100 <dminuoso> absence: in your own code?
2022-02-18 12:39:18 +0100jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2022-02-18 12:44:32 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 12:46:17 +0100 <absence> i haven't kept a tally, but mostly at work i guess
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2022-02-18 13:54:14 +0100 <romesrf> o/
2022-02-18 13:55:16 +0100 <[exa]> \o
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2022-02-18 14:02:51 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-027.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-02-18 14:05:57 +0100w1n5t0n(~w1n5t0n@87.74.143.200)
2022-02-18 14:07:08 +0100mbuf(~Shakthi@223.178.123.144) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-02-18 14:07:28 +0100 <w1n5t0n> Hello peeps, I have an issue getting Stack to build a project that, as far as I remember, used to build fine a year or two ago
2022-02-18 14:08:02 +0100 <w1n5t0n> There is a dependency on the package hsndfile, which in turn depends on the C library libsndfile, and during `stack build` I get this:
2022-02-18 14:08:03 +0100 <w1n5t0n> hsndfile > configure
2022-02-18 14:08:03 +0100 <w1n5t0n> hsndfile > Configuring hsndfile-0.8.0...
2022-02-18 14:08:04 +0100 <w1n5t0n> hsndfile > build
2022-02-18 14:08:04 +0100 <w1n5t0n> hsndfile > Preprocessing library for hsndfile-0.8.0..
2022-02-18 14:08:05 +0100 <w1n5t0n> hsndfile > c2hs: C header contains errors:
2022-02-18 14:08:05 +0100 <w1n5t0n> hsndfile >
2022-02-18 14:08:06 +0100 <w1n5t0n> hsndfile > .stack-work/dist/x86_64-linux-tinfo6/Cabal-2.4.0.1/build/Sound/File/Sndfile/Interface.i:1: (column 1) [ERROR]  >>> Lexical error !
2022-02-18 14:08:06 +0100 <w1n5t0n> hsndfile >   The character '#' does not fit here.
2022-02-18 14:08:07 +0100 <w1n5t0n> hsndfile >
2022-02-18 14:08:07 +0100 <w1n5t0n> Progress 1/2
2022-02-18 14:08:08 +0100 <w1n5t0n> --  While building package hsndfile-0.8.0 (scroll up to its section to see the error) using:
2022-02-18 14:08:08 +0100 <w1n5t0n>       /home/w1n5t0n/.stack/setup-exe-cache/x86_64-linux-tinfo6/Cabal-simple_mPHDZzAJ_2.4.0.1_ghc-8.6.5 --builddir=.stack-work/dist/x86_64-linux-tinfo6/Cabal-2.4.0.1 build --ghc-options " -fdiagnostics-color=always"
2022-02-18 14:08:09 +0100 <w1n5t0n>     Process exited with code: ExitFailure 1
2022-02-18 14:08:11 +0100 <[exa]> w1n5t0n: oh please do not paste code here
2022-02-18 14:08:21 +0100 <[exa]> there's pastebin in the /topic :]
2022-02-18 14:08:24 +0100 <merijn> technically that's an error, but yeah :p
2022-02-18 14:08:28 +0100 <w1n5t0n> There is a dependency on the package hsndfile, which in turn depends on the C library libsndfile, and during `stack build` I get this
2022-02-18 14:08:38 +0100 <w1n5t0n> Sorry, tried to edit the message but apparently that's not possible
2022-02-18 14:08:52 +0100 <[exa]> no, sent stuff is sent
2022-02-18 14:09:09 +0100 <w1n5t0n> https://pastebin.com/ZbbHwhHC
2022-02-18 14:09:37 +0100 <w1n5t0n> Sorry I'm a bit stressed at the moment and wasn't thinking straight :(
2022-02-18 14:09:45 +0100 <[exa]> no problem
2022-02-18 14:09:57 +0100 <w1n5t0n> My question is, how can this not work when everything else in the Stack package's configuration has remained the same?
2022-02-18 14:10:12 +0100 <w1n5t0n> Could it have something to do with my local version of the library?
2022-02-18 14:10:24 +0100 <[exa]> are you sure that both c2hs and libsndfile "source" is the same version?
2022-02-18 14:10:27 +0100 <merijn> ah, I see the problem
2022-02-18 14:10:34 +0100 <merijn> c2hs isn't robust
2022-02-18 14:10:40 +0100 <romesrf> (is there an Id for constraints? Id m => m would be the same as m)
2022-02-18 14:10:44 +0100 <merijn> It was never intended as automated translation
2022-02-18 14:10:54 +0100 <merijn> It was a "first pass you fix up manually" kinda tool
2022-02-18 14:10:56 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
2022-02-18 14:11:06 +0100 <merijn> (or was that c2hsc?)
2022-02-18 14:11:13 +0100 <c_wraith> romesrf: there's the empty constraint, ()
2022-02-18 14:11:20 +0100 <merijn> Anyway, looks like it's barfing on the syntax of the libsndfile headers
2022-02-18 14:11:35 +0100 <merijn> So your system probably has a newer libsndfile with different headers
2022-02-18 14:12:06 +0100 <c_wraith> romesrf: if you need something with the kind Type -> Constraint you could write a type family that returns () for anything
2022-02-18 14:12:14 +0100 <romesrf> ty c_wraith :)
2022-02-18 14:12:58 +0100 <w1n5t0n> merijn Yes that's what I get from it too. If I were to get an older version of the library locally and add it to the `extra-lib-dirs`, would that take precedence over the system-installed version?
2022-02-18 14:13:20 +0100 <merijn> If you fiddle with all the flags, yes
2022-02-18 14:14:03 +0100 <w1n5t0n> what flags would those be?
2022-02-18 14:14:04 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 14:14:25 +0100 <merijn> It Depends (TM)
2022-02-18 14:14:29 +0100erisco(~erisco@d24-57-249-233.home.cgocable.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-18 14:15:08 +0100 <w1n5t0n> hehe
2022-02-18 14:15:40 +0100erisco(~erisco@d24-57-249-233.home.cgocable.net)
2022-02-18 14:15:43 +0100 <w1n5t0n> oh god this is turning into a nightmare
2022-02-18 14:15:52 +0100 <w1n5t0n> all I wanted was to be able to write arbitrary floating numbers to a wav file :(
2022-02-18 14:16:18 +0100 <w1n5t0n> I tried using the WAVE library which is Haskell-only and it works well, but doesn't do floats
2022-02-18 14:16:35 +0100 <merijn> tbh, WAVE files are pretty simple
2022-02-18 14:16:54 +0100 <merijn> I recall writing my own implementation in C for a university project
2022-02-18 14:17:04 +0100 <merijn> took less than an afternoon, I think
2022-02-18 14:17:10 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 14:17:54 +0100 <w1n5t0n> Yes I've heard that, the problem is I haven't written anything like that before and I definitely don't have the time to try my hand at it now if I want to be able to deliver this workshop tomorrow morning
2022-02-18 14:22:47 +0100 <leah2> cant you prescale them?
2022-02-18 14:24:01 +0100 <w1n5t0n> how do you mean?
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2022-02-18 14:24:08 +0100dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net)
2022-02-18 14:24:11 +0100 <leah2> if the library old does, say, 16-bit WAV
2022-02-18 14:24:30 +0100 <leah2> just multiply the float with 65536 and truncate to integer?
2022-02-18 14:25:18 +0100o-90(~o-90@gateway/tor-sasl/o-90)
2022-02-18 14:25:34 +0100 <w1n5t0n> What I basically want is to be able to take arbitrary Haskell lists, like [1..5000] or [5.1, 5.2..10.0] and write them into wav files in a way that another program (SuperCollider) can read them back and get those exact values
2022-02-18 14:26:12 +0100 <w1n5t0n> This used to work fine with hsndfile, but now with this solution not only will I have to set a fixed range and prescale them, but also change the SuperCollider code so that it knows how to interpret them
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2022-02-18 14:33:01 +0100 <[exa]> w1n5t0n: there might be other libraries for writing wavs, have a look at Codec.Wav, Codec.Audio.Wave (looks newer), and perhaps Sound.Sox.Format
2022-02-18 14:35:34 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
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2022-02-18 14:45:57 +0100 <w1n5t0n> [exa] I can't find Codec.Wav or Codec.Audio.Wave - there's a codec package on hackage but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with wavs
2022-02-18 14:46:01 +0100Inoperable(~PLAYER_1@fancydata.science) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-02-18 14:46:34 +0100 <w1n5t0n> It's quite likely that I just don't understand how hackage works
2022-02-18 14:46:57 +0100sprout(~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:3d23:94e0:3c0f:8df3)
2022-02-18 14:49:42 +0100kritzefitz(~kritzefit@debian/kritzefitz) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-02-18 14:49:48 +0100 <leah2> Data.WAVE has a doubleToSample, dont you think that will do the job
2022-02-18 14:50:18 +0100dwt_(~dwt_@c-98-198-103-176.hsd1.tx.comcast.net)
2022-02-18 14:50:34 +0100 <[exa]> w1n5t0n: I meant this pkg https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wave
2022-02-18 14:50:43 +0100 <[exa]> (use hoogle to match packages to modules)
2022-02-18 14:51:30 +0100 <w1n5t0n> leah2 I tried it, it assumes that the doubles are normalised bipolar waves in the range of -1 to 1
2022-02-18 14:51:48 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@200116b8677273009c8f7d913250827a.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2022-02-18 14:51:59 +0100 <w1n5t0n> which mine are most often not, so it just chops off everything else
2022-02-18 14:52:04 +0100 <leah2> tbh i dont see much sense in having full floats for a waveform oO
2022-02-18 14:53:20 +0100 <w1n5t0n> It's not for a waveform meant to represent audio, it's for a waveform meant to represent arbitrary signals
2022-02-18 14:53:31 +0100 <w1n5t0n> which are then used to control various arbitrary synthesis parameters
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2022-02-18 14:54:04 +0100 <w1n5t0n> [exa] thanks, that seems like it should work
2022-02-18 14:54:59 +0100xkuru(~xkuru@user/xkuru)
2022-02-18 14:56:58 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 14:59:36 +0100 <merijn> How's GHC 9.2 support? Should I have any hope of stuff compiling with 9.2 without too much pain yet?
2022-02-18 14:59:49 +0100chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc15:800:4308:c5a2:39b7:2fb7)
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2022-02-18 15:07:18 +0100deadmarshal(~deadmarsh@95.38.231.188)
2022-02-18 15:08:54 +0100 <w1n5t0n> [exa] so apparently Codec.Audio.Wave.writeWaveFile needs me to provide a (Handle -> IO ()) to do the actual writing of the data
2022-02-18 15:09:29 +0100vpan(~0@212.117.1.172) (Quit: Leaving.)
2022-02-18 15:09:53 +0100 <w1n5t0n> Assuming that all the info I passed in the header is correct, would that function just take a float array and write the raw bytes to the handle?
2022-02-18 15:09:58 +0100 <w1n5t0n> I'm just a bit confused as to how to use it
2022-02-18 15:11:12 +0100Topsi(~Tobias@dyndsl-095-033-091-109.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
2022-02-18 15:14:00 +0100 <w1n5t0n> float list*, sorry
2022-02-18 15:14:13 +0100 <geekosaur> that doesn't look like a writing function. that type looks like all it could do is closethe Handle
2022-02-18 15:14:30 +0100AkechiShiro(~licht@user/akechishiro)
2022-02-18 15:14:50 +0100 <w1n5t0n> Yes it's a bit confusing, I don't see another "proper" writing function though
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2022-02-18 15:18:35 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 15:18:59 +0100 <merijn> geekosaur: Yeah, I saw that API and was like "??"
2022-02-18 15:19:03 +0100 <merijn> I tried looking at the source
2022-02-18 15:19:08 +0100 <merijn> I am still very confused
2022-02-18 15:19:53 +0100jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d4b9df.access.ecotel.net)
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2022-02-18 15:24:17 +0100 <[exa]> ah looks like you're supposed to do the writing of the raw data yourself, presumably for efficiency
2022-02-18 15:25:19 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b580:ab83:1b56:af3b)
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2022-02-18 15:30:20 +0100ubert(~Thunderbi@5.253.207.46)
2022-02-18 15:31:26 +0100 <w1n5t0n> Yes, but how does that work?
2022-02-18 15:31:42 +0100 <w1n5t0n> Do I just provide a function that takes the handle and dumps the raw bytes for all the floats in a list?
2022-02-18 15:31:56 +0100coot(~coot@213.134.190.95) ()
2022-02-18 15:31:59 +0100 <w1n5t0n> I haven't done anything like that before so I'm not really sure how it's meant to work
2022-02-18 15:33:47 +0100coot(~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba)
2022-02-18 15:34:04 +0100fef(~thedawn@user/thedawn)
2022-02-18 15:38:16 +0100jtomas(~jtomas@210.red-88-24-179.staticip.rima-tde.net)
2022-02-18 15:39:44 +0100 <janus> merijn: there is one compiler crash that is fixed in 9.0.2 but not in 9.2.1, and it bit swagger2: https://github.com/GetShopTV/swagger2/pull/233#issuecomment-1029462730
2022-02-18 15:39:58 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 15:40:33 +0100CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c95737a2002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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2022-02-18 15:41:04 +0100 <janus> funny how that bug appeared just as GHC 9.2.1 enabled PolyKinds by default
2022-02-18 15:41:11 +0100 <maerwald[m]> merijn: i haven't even tried and have little interest in testing any of the 9.x series :o
2022-02-18 15:41:41 +0100 <maerwald[m]> I think only M1 users are excited about ghc 9
2022-02-18 15:42:22 +0100 <merijn> maerwald[m]: 9 has -XNoFieldSelectors!
2022-02-18 15:42:43 +0100Typedfern(~Typedfern@75.red-88-22-25.staticip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2022-02-18 15:42:43 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 15:42:49 +0100 <merijn> And 9.0 had a bunch of performance improvements
2022-02-18 15:43:07 +0100 <yushyin> -XNoFieldSelectors is ♥
2022-02-18 15:43:09 +0100 <janus> anybody who hates a the giant list of language extensions should love GHC2021 and therefore GHC9.2.1
2022-02-18 15:43:17 +0100 <geekosaur> and gc improvements
2022-02-18 15:43:19 +0100 <merijn> janus:
2022-02-18 15:43:25 +0100texasmynsted_(~texasmyns@99.96.221.112) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2022-02-18 15:43:28 +0100 <merijn> GHC2021 I find rather unappealing, tbh
2022-02-18 15:43:56 +0100 <merijn> geekosaur: For the normal one or just the new low-latency one?
2022-02-18 15:44:02 +0100vorpuni(~pvorp@2001:861:3881:c690:d322:f659:136d:eef6) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 15:44:16 +0100 <geekosaur> they fixed a shitton of performance issues witrh the parallel gc
2022-02-18 15:44:21 +0100 <janus> everybody disagrees with some part of GHC2021. but i choose to be an optimist ;)
2022-02-18 15:44:28 +0100 <merijn> I don't use the paralle GC anyway, tbh
2022-02-18 15:45:28 +0100 <maerwald[m]> This is why we need --std=haskell2020 flag, so you can update GHC to get platform support improvements, without buying into all the language breaking changes
2022-02-18 15:45:53 +0100 <merijn> maerwald[m]: cabal already does that for you?
2022-02-18 15:46:04 +0100 <maerwald[m]> Huh?
2022-02-18 15:46:16 +0100 <merijn> You can specify default language and just use Haskell2010
2022-02-18 15:46:33 +0100 <merijn> Just like Haskell98 (and now GHC2021) are options
2022-02-18 15:47:02 +0100 <maerwald[m]> I don't think that does what I meant
2022-02-18 15:47:10 +0100burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-022.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2022-02-18 15:47:12 +0100 <merijn> What did you mean, then?
2022-02-18 15:47:28 +0100 <maerwald[m]> E.g. in c compilers, compilation will fail if a source file doesn't adhere to the standard
2022-02-18 15:48:39 +0100doyougnu(~doyougnu@cpe-67-249-83-190.twcny.res.rr.com)
2022-02-18 15:48:42 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
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2022-02-18 15:48:43 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2022-02-18 15:48:50 +0100 <maerwald[m]> I want to opt out of ALL language changes
2022-02-18 15:50:17 +0100 <maerwald[m]> E.g. simplified subsumption in ghc 9.0.1
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2022-02-18 15:53:33 +0100shriekingnoise(~shrieking@201.231.16.156)
2022-02-18 15:54:11 +0100 <janus> is simplified subsumption something haskell98 users can encounter?
2022-02-18 15:54:57 +0100jpds(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 15:54:58 +0100 <geekosaur> yes
2022-02-18 15:55:02 +0100jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d4b9df.access.ecotel.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-02-18 15:55:05 +0100 <maerwald[m]> I think it's just underspecified
2022-02-18 15:55:08 +0100Typedfern(~Typedfern@170.red-88-24-162.staticip.rima-tde.net)
2022-02-18 15:55:20 +0100jpds(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds)
2022-02-18 15:55:43 +0100 <janus> ooh, so with a sufficiently specified language, you'd get what you want, maerwald?
2022-02-18 15:55:58 +0100chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc15:800:4308:c5a2:39b7:2fb7) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2022-02-18 15:56:09 +0100 <janus> but nobody is interested in pinning down these aspects, i guess
2022-02-18 15:56:20 +0100 <maerwald[m]> Yes, I want to get bugfixes and platform improvements, but I don't care for any of the language changes
2022-02-18 15:56:39 +0100 <maerwald[m]> I thinl there is interest, it's just an insane amount of work
2022-02-18 15:57:22 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
2022-02-18 15:57:37 +0100 <geekosaur> simplified subsumption and parsing changes are things that aren't hidden behind LANGUAGE pragmas
2022-02-18 15:57:57 +0100 <geekosaur> (spaces are significant in more places)
2022-02-18 15:59:29 +0100 <maerwald[m]> The alternative would be to do GHC LTS and burn out backporting things between GHC HEAD and 8.10.x
2022-02-18 16:00:28 +0100alx741(~alx741@181.199.42.143)
2022-02-18 16:01:55 +0100 <janus> maerwald[m]: which is the most haskell-like language that is totally specified as you wish for? you mentioned C but i wonder which others there are
2022-02-18 16:02:23 +0100 <maerwald[m]> C is not really well specified xD
2022-02-18 16:03:13 +0100 <merijn> maerwald[m]: It is "well specified", it's just not specified "well" :p
2022-02-18 16:03:30 +0100 <maerwald[m]> Afair even pointers are implementation defined
2022-02-18 16:03:47 +0100 <merijn> Ah...persistent doesn't support GHC 9.0, lemme nope the fuck out of supporting 9.x for this code...
2022-02-18 16:05:39 +0100 <maerwald[m]> merijn: https://github.com/yesodweb/persistent/pull/1265
2022-02-18 16:05:49 +0100 <maerwald[m]> Seems supported
2022-02-18 16:06:30 +0100alx741(~alx741@181.199.42.143) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 16:06:47 +0100 <maerwald[m]> janus: well, I don't care for specifications much, except that they are a proxy for stability
2022-02-18 16:07:18 +0100 <merijn> maerwald[m]: No, because it doesn't support template-haskell 2.18, which ships with 9.2
2022-02-18 16:07:38 +0100 <merijn> oh, I typed 9.0 instead of 9.2
2022-02-18 16:07:43 +0100 <maerwald[m]> merijn: https://github.com/yesodweb/persistent/pull/1338
2022-02-18 16:08:15 +0100 <merijn> Yeah, but I spent 5 years babysitting persistent updates until things were fixed for me
2022-02-18 16:08:20 +0100 <hud> Hello, trying to create haddock docs according to https://github.com/coot/haddock-example - does anyone know where ghcup installs the haddock-api resource directory
2022-02-18 16:08:38 +0100 <merijn> I'll just deem GHC 8.10 the canonical only supported GHC version before archiving this stuff
2022-02-18 16:08:42 +0100 <maerwald[m]> hud: which ghc version?
2022-02-18 16:11:28 +0100w1n5t0n(~w1n5t0n@87.74.143.200) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-18 16:12:25 +0100 <hud> 8.10.7
2022-02-18 16:12:25 +0100 <maerwald[m]> hud: here is a list of installed files https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/blob/master/.gitlab/ghc-8.10.3-linux.files
2022-02-18 16:13:01 +0100 <maerwald[m]> So somewhere in ~/.ghcup/ghc/8.10.7
2022-02-18 16:14:01 +0100hololeap(~hololeap@user/hololeap)
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2022-02-18 16:21:49 +0100 <hud> cheers maerwald!
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2022-02-18 17:48:02 +0100geekosaursequell-clippy
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2022-02-18 17:54:03 +0100 <justsomeguy> I couldn't figure out how to implement reverse without using (++), so I looked it up, and now I feel dumb for not coming up with it on my own.
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2022-02-18 18:04:17 +0100ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2022-02-18 18:05:42 +0100 <merijn> It happens :)
2022-02-18 18:05:51 +0100 <vaibhavsagar[m]> there are several things in Haskell that make me feel like this, such as implementing continuations and implementing `foldl` in terms of `foldr`
2022-02-18 18:05:51 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b580:ab83:1b56:af3b) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 18:06:07 +0100 <merijn> vaibhavsagar[m]: "staring at ContT"?
2022-02-18 18:06:15 +0100jcob(~jcob@207.38.150.86) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-02-18 18:06:48 +0100 <vaibhavsagar[m]> yeah, I mean rewriting it on my own without looking at the source beforehand
2022-02-18 18:07:14 +0100 <vaibhavsagar[m]> and then when I finally reference it it's like "oh, of course"
2022-02-18 18:07:21 +0100 <merijn> I will never not be confused by ContT :p
2022-02-18 18:07:43 +0100 <geekosaur> I worked it through once.I plan to not need to do so again
2022-02-18 18:08:28 +0100lottaquestions_(~nick@2607:fa49:5041:a200:60ac:5115:d501:c1e2)
2022-02-18 18:08:33 +0100 <merijn> geekosaur: For me it's just an infinite loop of "I don't understand this" -> "oh, this makes sense" -> '...wait' -> "????" -> repeat
2022-02-18 18:08:35 +0100alx741(~alx741@181.199.42.143)
2022-02-18 18:08:42 +0100 <vaibhavsagar[m]> https://www.haskellforall.com/2014/04/how-continuation-monad-works.html is my farouvite
2022-02-18 18:08:53 +0100 <vaibhavsagar[m]> typed holes are nice too for this https://vaibhavsagar.com/blog/2017/05/22/discovering-continuations/
2022-02-18 18:11:38 +0100zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag)
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2022-02-18 18:15:36 +0100 <sm> merijn: argh that's too familiar
2022-02-18 18:16:15 +0100 <sm> sounds like my week
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2022-02-18 18:32:40 +0100bjobjo(~bjobjo@user/bjobjo)
2022-02-18 18:33:05 +0100 <chronon> As I am just starting out on my Haskell learning adventure, I am wondering what I actually need to install to be able to try out tutorial examples.
2022-02-18 18:33:30 +0100 <chronon> On my Ubuntu system I see packages for ghc and also haskell-platform and similar.
2022-02-18 18:33:34 +0100gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2022-02-18 18:34:04 +0100 <chronon> What would be a good starting point for a hassle-free batteries included kind of experience.
2022-02-18 18:34:44 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
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2022-02-18 18:35:33 +0100 <geekosaur> there isn't really a batteries-included setup, but both stack and cabal manage the batteries for you so you usually don't need to care
2022-02-18 18:35:36 +0100Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:890f:d3a0:aab0:f3f)
2022-02-18 18:35:40 +0100 <vaibhavsagar[m]> chronon: `ghcup`
2022-02-18 18:36:14 +0100 <geekosaur> we usually start with ghcup. install a ghc version (typically 8.10.7 as the ecosystem is still adapting to 9.x) and either stack or cabal (which is up to personal taste)
2022-02-18 18:36:15 +0100 <vaibhavsagar[m]> it should install `ghc` and `cabal-install` (or `stack`) for you, and then you're off to the races
2022-02-18 18:36:26 +0100 <geekosaur> stack and cabal both manage libraries for ypu
2022-02-18 18:37:11 +0100 <geekosaur> personally I prefer cabal-install. others prefer stack. (it's about a 50-50 split)
2022-02-18 18:37:12 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 18:37:15 +0100 <chronon> Ok, I see a debian package called haskell-stack.
2022-02-18 18:37:30 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@200116b8677273009c8f7d913250827a.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-02-18 18:37:36 +0100 <chronon> There is no package called ghcup
2022-02-18 18:37:55 +0100dyeplexer(~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer)
2022-02-18 18:38:01 +0100 <[exa]> chronon: ghcup is like a rustup, a small maintenance thingy that manages your local installation of the ghc and tooling around
2022-02-18 18:38:30 +0100 <geekosaur> and debian is as usualancient and won't have it
2022-02-18 18:38:49 +0100 <Clint> and doesn't need to because you can just `apt install ghc cabal-install `
2022-02-18 18:39:03 +0100 <geekosaur> https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/install/
2022-02-18 18:39:14 +0100 <[exa]> chronon: this way it dodges the concerns of debian packaging (that usually prefers to have an older ghc and a different management of packages)
2022-02-18 18:39:23 +0100euandreh(~euandreh@2804:14c:33:9fe5:a0be:91d2:ac63:61de)
2022-02-18 18:39:31 +0100 <chronon> I see. I'm folloing that link now..
2022-02-18 18:40:11 +0100 <[exa]> otoh honestly, ghc and cabal-install from debian could work at least for the first few days... at least until you hit the first packaging incompatibility with debian :D
2022-02-18 18:40:12 +0100 <chronon> I generally prefer to lean on my package manager for an easy life, but if it's all too out of date...
2022-02-18 18:40:39 +0100justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
2022-02-18 18:40:42 +0100 <Clint> depends how you define "out of date"
2022-02-18 18:41:29 +0100 <chronon> Wait, is this ghcup thing going to create containers, and manage different versions of ghc in a way that prevents me from just maintaining a single version system-wide?
2022-02-18 18:41:53 +0100 <sclv> it installs ghc versions in ~/.ghcup
2022-02-18 18:42:01 +0100 <[exa]> chronon: it installs a single-user version into a single well-maintainable directory
2022-02-18 18:42:05 +0100 <sclv> and lets you manage which version is in your path
2022-02-18 18:42:09 +0100 <Clint> there's also https://launchpad.net/~hvr/+archive/ubuntu/ghc if you need "bleeding edge"
2022-02-18 18:43:04 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-027.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-02-18 18:43:06 +0100 <sclv> the hvr ppa used to be good, but it no longer gets bleeding edge updates
2022-02-18 18:43:18 +0100 <sclv> so its no longer a top choice pick, sadly
2022-02-18 18:43:32 +0100 <chronon> I've traditionally preferred to maintain a single stable version (of nearly everything) system wide rather than try to have special bleeding edge stuff in different environments. I'm not a bleeding edge kinda guy by nature.
2022-02-18 18:44:00 +0100 <Clint> i'm still on 8.8 since more than one of my dependencies doesn't work with newer ghc yet
2022-02-18 18:45:33 +0100 <chronon> What is the main difference between cabal and stack, and how does ghcup relate? (Sorry if these are dumb questions.)
2022-02-18 18:45:45 +0100 <geekosaur> ghcup is just an installer
2022-02-18 18:45:48 +0100 <sclv> ghcup is just a tool to ease installation and management of other tools
2022-02-18 18:45:54 +0100 <sclv> the core choice is cabal and stack
2022-02-18 18:46:03 +0100 <chronon> Ok
2022-02-18 18:46:18 +0100 <sclv> stack is designed to use only a fixed set of libraries at fixed versions (stackage)
2022-02-18 18:46:21 +0100 <chronon> And the difference? The reasons one might choose one over the other?
2022-02-18 18:46:36 +0100 <sclv> cabal is designed to let you use all libraries, at all versions, and runs a solver to figure out compatible plans.
2022-02-18 18:47:02 +0100 <chronon> Wow, you need a solver to make things compatible?
2022-02-18 18:47:14 +0100 <sclv> chronon: well that's no different than any os distro
2022-02-18 18:47:32 +0100 <sclv> all modern package managers run solvers under the ood
2022-02-18 18:47:57 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-027.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-02-18 18:48:22 +0100 <chronon> Typically, a Linux package manager is able to use the latest versions of packages, because typically people don't break backwards compatibility (or at least only do so temprarily)
2022-02-18 18:49:04 +0100 <sclv> "typically" is because the distro packages are all maintained by a huge team of volunteers.
2022-02-18 18:49:07 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b580:ab83:1b56:af3b)
2022-02-18 18:49:17 +0100 <sclv> and they still mainly use solvers because "typical" isn't always.
2022-02-18 18:49:31 +0100 <chronon> But if cabal is going to let this total newb get things done without having to fix complex module compatibility issues, I guess I should place my trust in it.
2022-02-18 18:49:35 +0100trriplex(~trriplex@user/trriplex)
2022-02-18 18:49:38 +0100burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-022.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2022-02-18 18:49:48 +0100 <geekosaur> and if you pay attention you''ll notice that for example a lot of distros took a lot of time to move to ncurses 6 because of all the breakage
2022-02-18 18:49:56 +0100 <sclv> cabal is the easiest way if you want to use any old (not bitrotted) package off the main package repository to experiment.
2022-02-18 18:50:43 +0100 <chronon> Ok, so do I apt install the package called cabal-install first?
2022-02-18 18:51:14 +0100 <sclv> chronon: if you want to stick to just what your system provides without newer versions, then just apt installing ghc and cabal-install will suffice.
2022-02-18 18:51:42 +0100 <chronon> It seems to have dpendencies on ghc v8.8.1 and libncurses5 amongst a few other things.
2022-02-18 18:51:46 +0100yauhsienhuangtw(~Yau-Hsien@61-231-37-106.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 18:51:59 +0100 <sclv> ok so then it'll pull in ghc for you too, which is fine.
2022-02-18 18:52:05 +0100 <geekosaur> that sounds very debian :)
2022-02-18 18:52:18 +0100 <sclv> note that 8.8 is at the tail end of "ghc that people still actively use and support"
2022-02-18 18:52:19 +0100 <chronon> Ok, I'll start there. Thanks.
2022-02-18 18:52:26 +0100 <sclv> but for learning it should be fine!
2022-02-18 18:52:42 +0100Guest89(~Guest89@2a01:41e1:45f8:d600:cf73:c87f:80cc:d6bb) (Quit: Client closed)
2022-02-18 18:53:11 +0100CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c95737a2002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-02-18 18:54:29 +0100econo(uid147250@user/econo)
2022-02-18 18:54:36 +0100 <chronon> It's installed. Do I need any further step, libraries, docs, etc?
2022-02-18 18:55:01 +0100 <sclv> nope.
2022-02-18 18:55:14 +0100alx741(~alx741@181.199.42.143)
2022-02-18 18:55:16 +0100 <sclv> if you have ghci in your path, try to launch it, and you'll have a repl
2022-02-18 18:55:30 +0100 <sclv> you can enter a new project directory and run `cabal init` to create a project, and start experimenting.
2022-02-18 18:56:03 +0100 <sclv> chronon: which version of cabal-install did you get by the way?
2022-02-18 18:56:41 +0100 <chronon> It says 2.4.0
2022-02-18 18:56:44 +0100whatsupdoc(uid509081@id-509081.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2022-02-18 18:56:46 +0100 <chronon> Is that good enough?
2022-02-18 18:57:23 +0100 <sclv> errr... i'd recommend something in the 3.0 series
2022-02-18 18:57:33 +0100 <chronon> Yes, I have ghc and ghci in my path. What's the difference?
2022-02-18 18:57:52 +0100 <sclv> ghc is a compiler, ghci launches a python-style interactive repl
2022-02-18 18:58:04 +0100alx741(~alx741@181.199.42.143) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 18:58:25 +0100 <sclv> you can always just download a generic unix compat cabal-install binary from https://www.haskell.org/cabal/download.html
2022-02-18 18:58:42 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 18:58:53 +0100 <chronon> Is it possible to run Haskell as an interpreter, ie. using shebang lines #!/usr/bin/ghc or similar?
2022-02-18 18:59:02 +0100 <[exa]> yes, there's ghci
2022-02-18 18:59:11 +0100 <geekosaur> sounds more like runhaskell
2022-02-18 18:59:25 +0100 <chronon> So that would be #!/usr/bin/ghci at the top of the script?
2022-02-18 18:59:28 +0100 <geekosaur> cabal and stack also have "script mode"
2022-02-18 18:59:45 +0100 <sclv> (using cabal 2.4, the commands people describe as modern cabal commands are still going to need to be prefixed with `v2` so you'll need to run `v2-build` instead of `build` etc to get more modern behavior)
2022-02-18 19:00:01 +0100 <chronon> Oh.
2022-02-18 19:00:05 +0100alp(~alp@user/alp) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-18 19:00:25 +0100 <sclv> not ghci. ghci is an interactive setting where you type and it responds. you would put runhaskell at the top of the script, iirc.
2022-02-18 19:00:27 +0100 <chronon> Hmm, is there a PPA fr more up to date package versions maybe?
2022-02-18 19:00:33 +0100 <sclv> yes -- somebody linked above
2022-02-18 19:00:50 +0100 <sclv> https://launchpad.net/~hvr/+archive/ubuntu/ghc
2022-02-18 19:01:04 +0100 <chronon> Ah, ok. Then perhaps that's my best approach.
2022-02-18 19:01:05 +0100 <sclv> its not super up to date, but certainly more up to date than what you're going to get from debian directly
2022-02-18 19:03:52 +0100 <chronon> I notice there's a ghc-doc tool that was not brought in as a dependency. I assume that's a perldoc, pydoc kind of tool that I would likely need. Right?
2022-02-18 19:04:03 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
2022-02-18 19:04:04 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
2022-02-18 19:04:04 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2022-02-18 19:04:27 +0100trriplex(~trriplex@user/trriplex) (Quit: Leaving)
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2022-02-18 19:05:49 +0100 <sclv> i think that's just docs for ghc
2022-02-18 19:05:51 +0100 <sclv> you can find them online
2022-02-18 19:06:01 +0100 <sclv> the tool we use for documentation is called "haddock" and it should come with ghc?
2022-02-18 19:06:23 +0100 <sclv> or cabal should be able to pull it in for builds as needed
2022-02-18 19:06:43 +0100 <sclv> i think its much better at this point if you just start doing stuff and learning
2022-02-18 19:06:49 +0100 <sclv> and then discover what else you may want as you go.
2022-02-18 19:07:04 +0100alp(~alp@user/alp)
2022-02-18 19:08:00 +0100 <sm> stack's shebang support is the most mature, see "stack script interpreter" in manual
2022-02-18 19:08:18 +0100 <sclv> at this point i think cabal's is just as nice as stacks's
2022-02-18 19:08:54 +0100 <sclv> the differences that exist are in philosophy not features
2022-02-18 19:08:54 +0100 <sm> does it avoid compiling each time, sclv ?
2022-02-18 19:09:05 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-18 19:09:09 +0100 <sclv> we have a pr merged that does that now.
2022-02-18 19:09:23 +0100 <sm> ok.. not released yet ?
2022-02-18 19:09:24 +0100CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c95737a2002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-18 19:09:32 +0100 <sclv> released in HEAD :-P
2022-02-18 19:09:53 +0100 <sm> 👍🏻😎
2022-02-18 19:10:14 +0100eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b580:ab83:1b56:af3b) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 19:14:57 +0100 <chronon> I prefer having local docs. I don't like to be too dependent on an internet connection for getting work done. Also local docs can be grepped and scanned in ways that someone else's website can't.
2022-02-18 19:15:18 +0100 <monochrom> haddock comes with GHC, and you are really better off using the haddock that comes with GHC as a matter of pairing.
2022-02-18 19:17:11 +0100 <chronon> Ok, and I see that the PPA contains cabal-install various versions, then cabal-install-head which I presume to be latest. Is that the one I want?
2022-02-18 19:17:37 +0100 <sclv> no, just pick the latest actually numbered version.
2022-02-18 19:18:02 +0100 <sclv> head would, I believe, be the one from the github repo, last time the ppa actually was updated (which is not continously)
2022-02-18 19:18:08 +0100 <chronon> The PPA has various versions of GHC up to 9.0.1 what might be the problem with the latest?
2022-02-18 19:18:25 +0100 <sclv> on linux you're fine with the that
2022-02-18 19:18:43 +0100Major_Biscuit(~MajorBisc@c-001-017-054.client.tudelft.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-18 19:18:51 +0100 <sclv> a lot of production code is still stabilized on 8.10.7 too
2022-02-18 19:19:06 +0100 <geekosaur> the main feature of 9.2.1 is native support for Apple M1
2022-02-18 19:19:17 +0100 <chronon> And you would recommend cabal-install-3.4 rather than cabal-install-latest?
2022-02-18 19:19:26 +0100 <sclv> latest is fine, should be an alias
2022-02-18 19:19:54 +0100deadmarshal(~deadmarsh@95.38.231.188)
2022-02-18 19:20:16 +0100 <chronon> Right.
2022-02-18 19:20:46 +0100 <chronon> Actually I meant ..-head not ..-latest but same thing I presume.
2022-02-18 19:21:49 +0100alphabeta(~kilolympu@31.205.200.235)
2022-02-18 19:21:52 +0100 <sclv> no, don't use head.
2022-02-18 19:22:04 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 19:22:06 +0100 <sclv> head is not a named release. it is built directly from the github development repo
2022-02-18 19:22:07 +0100kilolympus(~kilolympu@vpn-fn-230.net.ed.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-18 19:22:25 +0100 <sclv> use the latest numbered release
2022-02-18 19:22:30 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@200116b8677273009c8f7d913250827a.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2022-02-18 19:22:31 +0100 <chronon> Oh, I'll rollback...
2022-02-18 19:23:21 +0100ProfSimm(~ProfSimm@87.227.196.109)
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2022-02-18 19:28:05 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-027.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
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2022-02-18 19:28:56 +0100 <chronon> I now have /opt/cabal/bin containing cabal, and /opt/ghc/bin contining ghc AND cabal. Presumably it is sufficient to add only /opt/ghc/bin to my $PATH
2022-02-18 19:29:54 +0100 <sclv> yes, this is what the documentation describes on the ppa page.
2022-02-18 19:30:40 +0100 <chronon> Ah, so it does. :)
2022-02-18 19:30:55 +0100 <chronon> I should rtfm clearly.
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2022-02-18 19:43:33 +0100 <chronon> All setup nicely now. Thanks all.
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2022-02-18 20:46:06 +0100shiraeeshi(~shiraeesh@109.166.56.8)
2022-02-18 20:50:07 +0100romesrf(~romes@44.190.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt)
2022-02-18 20:50:27 +0100 <romesrf> hi
2022-02-18 20:50:29 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 20:50:47 +0100fef(~thedawn@user/thedawn) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-02-18 20:50:51 +0100 <romesrf> i'm trying to make a Digest SHA256 out of a hash, but I always get "Nothing"
2022-02-18 20:51:06 +0100 <romesrf> digestFromByteString ("f9c5215545f1ab634bfed5e795815395840fac03848fb59d095ba32d12b061dca" :: ByteString) :: Maybe (Digest SHA256)
2022-02-18 20:51:22 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 20:55:03 +0100 <joel135> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cryptonite-0.29/docs/Crypto-Hash.html ?
2022-02-18 20:55:36 +0100 <tomsmeding> romesrf: perhaps you need to hex decode first?
2022-02-18 20:56:00 +0100 <tomsmeding> the fact that it is a bytestring and not a String or Text makes it likely that it expects the digest in byte form
2022-02-18 20:56:37 +0100shailangsa(~shailangs@host86-186-127-164.range86-186.btcentralplus.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 20:59:01 +0100 <romesrf> ah! right, f9 should be f9 not ascii values for f9
2022-02-18 20:59:07 +0100 <romesrf> ty :)
2022-02-18 21:01:09 +0100jao(~jao@static-68-235-44-54.cust.tzulo.com)
2022-02-18 21:01:46 +0100 <tomsmeding> sclv: is that https://github.com/haskell/cabal/pull/7851 ?
2022-02-18 21:02:12 +0100tomsmedingis excited for caching script support
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2022-02-18 21:47:09 +0100jgeerds(~jgeerds@55d4b9df.access.ecotel.net)
2022-02-18 21:49:11 +0100pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2022-02-18 21:50:31 +0100 <shiraeeshi> btw
2022-02-18 21:51:15 +0100 <shiraeeshi> every time I run "stack new some-project" stack downloads something
2022-02-18 21:51:39 +0100alx741(~alx741@181.199.42.143)
2022-02-18 21:51:47 +0100 <shiraeeshi> is there a way to cache that thing that it downloads?
2022-02-18 21:52:34 +0100 <shiraeeshi> so that I can create projects even with no internet connection
2022-02-18 21:53:00 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@200116b86772730041d55f290efc04ff.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2022-02-18 21:53:55 +0100alx741(~alx741@181.199.42.143) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 21:54:52 +0100 <janus> shiraeeshi: looks like no: https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/issues/1594
2022-02-18 21:55:35 +0100shriekingnoise(~shrieking@201.231.16.156) (Quit: Quit)
2022-02-18 21:57:08 +0100 <shiraeeshi> that's weird
2022-02-18 21:57:35 +0100shriekingnoise(~shrieking@201.231.16.156)
2022-02-18 21:58:26 +0100alMalsamo(~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)
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2022-02-18 21:59:50 +0100 <shiraeeshi> I guess I can create a project using "stack new", then stash it somewhere, that way I can copy a folder and replace the project name using sed or something
2022-02-18 22:01:54 +0100 <shiraeeshi> or I can create a folder and then run "stack init", right?
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2022-02-18 22:16:10 +0100 <maerwald> wouldn't be surprised if stack also uploads usage statistics
2022-02-18 22:16:15 +0100c209e6dc-4d76-47(~aditya@2601:249:4300:1296:195:dac6:592c:a55a) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2022-02-18 22:22:29 +0100 <shiraeeshi> lol
2022-02-18 22:22:55 +0100 <shiraeeshi> also shows a dialog window informing about cookie usage
2022-02-18 22:24:36 +0100prolic(~prolic@181.122.131.227) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 22:24:39 +0100 <maerwald> yeah, european law basically broke the internet with those annoying cookie popups
2022-02-18 22:24:55 +0100prolic(~prolic@181.122.131.227)
2022-02-18 22:25:59 +0100chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc15:800:fd31:6830:eca:6aa3)
2022-02-18 22:26:10 +0100hueso(~root@user/hueso)
2022-02-18 22:28:59 +0100dolio(~dolio@130.44.130.54) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-02-18 22:31:06 +0100prolic(~prolic@181.122.131.227) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 22:31:25 +0100prolic(~prolic@181.122.131.227)
2022-02-18 22:31:27 +0100c209e6dc-4d76-47(~aditya@2601:249:4300:1296:195:dac6:592c:a55a)
2022-02-18 22:32:22 +0100alx741(~alx741@181.199.42.143)
2022-02-18 22:32:35 +0100alp(~alp@user/alp) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-18 22:35:11 +0100dolio(~dolio@130.44.130.54)
2022-02-18 22:35:49 +0100alx741(~alx741@181.199.42.143) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 22:39:16 +0100tremon(~tremon@83-84-18-241.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2022-02-18 22:39:28 +0100takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 22:41:52 +0100prolic(~prolic@181.122.131.227) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 22:42:11 +0100prolic(~prolic@181.122.131.227)
2022-02-18 22:42:57 +0100dolio(~dolio@130.44.130.54) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2022-02-18 22:48:23 +0100 <hpc> let's be honest, it was already broken
2022-02-18 22:49:05 +0100jtomas(~jtomas@210.red-88-24-179.staticip.rima-tde.net)
2022-02-18 22:50:49 +0100prolic(~prolic@181.122.131.227) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 22:51:08 +0100prolic(~prolic@181.122.131.227)
2022-02-18 22:52:05 +0100hueso(~root@user/hueso) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-18 22:52:38 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 22:54:54 +0100prolic(~prolic@181.122.131.227) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 23:00:11 +0100zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a30d:1300:51a3:bcfc:6cda:9fc5) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2022-02-18 23:03:59 +0100bontaq(~user@ool-45779fe5.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-18 23:05:17 +0100chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc15:800:fd31:6830:eca:6aa3) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-18 23:06:23 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 23:07:13 +0100wootehfoot(~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 23:09:48 +0100Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:a4fb:481a:7fa9:b909) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-18 23:10:43 +0100polezaivsani(~polezaivs@orangeshoelaces.net) (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.2)
2022-02-18 23:19:24 +0100Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-18 23:19:50 +0100zer0bitz(~zer0bitz@2001:2003:f74d:b800:252f:1c34:e1bf:7de2) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-02-18 23:19:55 +0100gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)
2022-02-18 23:20:37 +0100lottaquestions_(~nick@2607:fa49:5041:a200:60ac:5115:d501:c1e2) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-18 23:21:26 +0100sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2022-02-18 23:22:24 +0100Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon)
2022-02-18 23:22:32 +0100shapr(~user@pool-173-73-44-186.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 23:22:45 +0100shapr(~user@pool-173-73-44-186.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2022-02-18 23:23:15 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@200116b86772730041d55f290efc04ff.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2022-02-18 23:23:19 +0100Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:890f:d3a0:aab0:f3f)
2022-02-18 23:23:25 +0100coot(~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba) (Quit: coot)
2022-02-18 23:24:14 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 23:26:48 +0100ccntrq(~Thunderbi@2a01:e34:eccb:b060:9be7:a233:2613:fd84) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 23:28:12 +0100cyphase_eviltwin(~cyphase@user/cyphase) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-18 23:28:37 +0100Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:890f:d3a0:aab0:f3f) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-18 23:28:37 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 23:31:14 +0100jackson99(~bc8147f2@cerf.good1.com) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout))
2022-02-18 23:31:30 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@200116b86772730041d55f290efc04ff.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-02-18 23:32:19 +0100zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-02-18 23:33:21 +0100zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag)
2022-02-18 23:34:23 +0100yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-37-106.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
2022-02-18 23:35:22 +0100cyphase_eviltwin(~cyphase@user/cyphase)
2022-02-18 23:38:10 +0100jao(~jao@static-68-235-44-54.cust.tzulo.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 23:38:29 +0100chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc15:800:53f7:4b4c:ef86:ecad)
2022-02-18 23:39:12 +0100sammelweis(~quassel@2601:401:8200:2d4c:bd9:d04c:7f69:eb10)
2022-02-18 23:42:56 +0100romesrf(~romes@44.190.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt)
2022-02-18 23:43:02 +0100michalz(~michalz@185.246.204.61) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 23:43:52 +0100irishman(~vshev4enk@178.151.117.243)
2022-02-18 23:46:46 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240)
2022-02-18 23:49:36 +0100alx741(~alx741@157.100.197.240) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2022-02-18 23:50:09 +0100irishman(~vshev4enk@178.151.117.243) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-18 23:52:35 +0100deadmarshal(~deadmarsh@95.38.231.188) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-02-18 23:53:36 +0100prolic(~prolic@181.122.131.227)
2022-02-18 23:55:16 +0100prolic(~prolic@181.122.131.227) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-18 23:55:34 +0100prolic(~prolic@181.122.131.227)
2022-02-18 23:55:45 +0100cheater(~Username@user/cheater) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2022-02-18 23:57:27 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d0c71a5a00cca7d468eb16bc46.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2022-02-18 23:59:08 +0100acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d0c71a5a00a926c52c5a33de35.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)