2022/02/11

2022-02-11 00:00:42 +0100 <EvanR> also, it builds character
2022-02-11 00:01:00 +0100wavemode(~wavemode@2601:241:0:fc90:12bc:6a75:8601:ea04)
2022-02-11 00:01:06 +0100 <monochrom> I know that feeling.
2022-02-11 00:02:03 +0100 <monochrom> When I was a young math enthusiasist, I questioned the tradition math curriculum order of <natural numbers, integers, rationals, reals, complex, rings and fields, universal algebra> too.
2022-02-11 00:02:30 +0100 <monochrom> I opined that it should be reversed. Kindergarten should start with universal algebra and maybe rings and fields.
2022-02-11 00:02:46 +0100 <monochrom> You must be thankful that back then I hadn't herad of category theory yet.
2022-02-11 00:02:55 +0100CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c95737a2002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-11 00:02:58 +0100 <monochrom> Either that, or thankful that no one listened to me.
2022-02-11 00:03:53 +0100 <monochrom> Except that someone did listen to someone else about New Math and did a bit of that. They tried to do set theory in kindergarten or something.
2022-02-11 00:04:22 +0100 <dolio> Yeah, they'd alreaday tried your idea.
2022-02-11 00:04:51 +0100`2jt(~jtomas@130.red-88-22-46.staticip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-11 00:05:23 +0100 <Franciman> bourbaki
2022-02-11 00:06:05 +0100 <dolio> Teaching universal algebra is probably a better idea than set theory, though.
2022-02-11 00:06:12 +0100 <monochrom> haha
2022-02-11 00:06:17 +0100ravella(~ravella@user/ryanavella)
2022-02-11 00:06:45 +0100 <Franciman> do they still teach ZF axiomatic set theory?
2022-02-11 00:10:22 +0100zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a30d:1300:51a3:bcfc:6cda:9fc5) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2022-02-11 00:12:17 +0100 <dolio> I don't think it was ZF, per se. It was a lot less formal than that.
2022-02-11 00:12:32 +0100 <dolio> Apparently abstract algebra was in the list of topics.
2022-02-11 00:13:09 +0100jao(~jao@211.68.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es)
2022-02-11 00:13:12 +0100nunggu(~q@user/nunggu) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-11 00:13:12 +0100 <monochrom> Näive set theory that only covers finite sets and doesn't bring up the tough questions so it's OK.
2022-02-11 00:13:37 +0100nunggu(~q@user/nunggu)
2022-02-11 00:13:46 +0100 <monochrom> In fact, only at the level of what most programmers think of as "containers".
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2022-02-11 00:14:34 +0100anon66200164(~anon66200@host-92-19-99-147.as13285.net)
2022-02-11 00:15:57 +0100 <EvanR> we were forced to answer the question "what is a line (or circle)" with "a set of points"
2022-02-11 00:16:13 +0100 <monochrom> Oh, damn.
2022-02-11 00:16:36 +0100 <EvanR> now i see that's a crazy intersection of ideas
2022-02-11 00:17:01 +0100FragByte(~christian@user/fragbyte) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-02-11 00:17:21 +0100geekosaurnow wonders how much insanity he managed to miss
2022-02-11 00:17:23 +0100FragByte(~christian@user/fragbyte)
2022-02-11 00:17:37 +0100zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag)
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2022-02-11 00:20:19 +0100geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2022-02-11 00:21:59 +0100geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2022-02-11 00:22:12 +0100Inst(~delicacie@c-98-208-218-119.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
2022-02-11 00:24:06 +0100 <dolio> Yeah, see, that kind of answer is exactly the kind of reason the set theory part would be useless.
2022-02-11 00:25:34 +0100cynomys(~cynomys@user/cynomys) (Quit: leaving)
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2022-02-11 00:27:01 +0100jao(~jao@211.68.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-02-11 00:27:10 +0100 <dolio> 'All mathematical objects are built out of sets,' isn't an idea that actually makes understanding the objects any easier.
2022-02-11 00:29:14 +0100jao(~jao@static-68-235-44-40.cust.tzulo.com)
2022-02-11 00:31:44 +0100 <EvanR> today they probably have to do homotopy type theory and say sets are made out of shapes
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2022-02-11 00:34:55 +0100jao(~jao@static-68-235-44-40.cust.tzulo.com) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2022-02-11 00:37:09 +0100jao(~jao@68.235.43.85)
2022-02-11 00:43:38 +0100 <janus> what would be a neat name for `flip foldMap`. my coworker suggested `summarize`. and monoids are, according to cdsmith 'composable list summarizers'
2022-02-11 00:44:20 +0100 <janus> maybe that is too 'smart'. but mapMconcat makes it looks like mapM, which it is not
2022-02-11 00:44:33 +0100 <janus> mconcatMap? seems bulky
2022-02-11 00:44:55 +0100vysn(~vysn@user/vysn)
2022-02-11 00:44:58 +0100 <EvanR> flippedFoldMap = flip foldMap
2022-02-11 00:45:10 +0100 <janus> ;)
2022-02-11 00:45:36 +0100 <EvanR> should clear up any confusion
2022-02-11 00:46:10 +0100 <monochrom> @type flip foldMap
2022-02-11 00:46:11 +0100 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid c) => t a -> (a -> c) -> c
2022-02-11 00:46:21 +0100 <monochrom> reduceBy
2022-02-11 00:46:30 +0100ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-02-11 00:46:50 +0100 <monochrom> Example: [1,23] `reduceBy` Sum >:)
2022-02-11 00:47:13 +0100 <jackdk> janus: `paMdolf`
2022-02-11 00:47:28 +0100 <janus> haha :D
2022-02-11 00:47:45 +0100ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2022-02-11 00:47:51 +0100 <janus> pamDolf... it has a certain ring to it..
2022-02-11 00:47:58 +0100 <ephemient> (<&>/)
2022-02-11 00:48:02 +0100 <jackdk> > (`foldMap` [1, 2, 3]) Sum
2022-02-11 00:48:03 +0100 <lambdabot> Sum {getSum = 6}
2022-02-11 00:48:05 +0100 <monochrom> This is strange, flip foldMap feels like the wrong order of arguments.
2022-02-11 00:48:25 +0100 <monochrom> or s/wrong/very unusual/
2022-02-11 00:48:28 +0100dysfigureddfg
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2022-02-11 00:48:33 +0100dfg(~dfg@user/dfg)
2022-02-11 00:48:38 +0100 <janus> monochrom: it's just like for is flipped traverse
2022-02-11 00:48:45 +0100briandaed(~root@109.95.143.81.r.toneticgroup.pl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-11 00:49:01 +0100alMalsam1alMalsamo
2022-02-11 00:49:03 +0100 <jackdk> monochrom: I think it's because imperative programmers tend not to use it, whereas `for_ = flip traverse_` and `for = flip traverse`map onto ad-hoc for-each-style constructs in other languages
2022-02-11 00:49:24 +0100 <Axman6> :t \f xs = getDual (foldMap (Dual . f) xs)
2022-02-11 00:49:25 +0100 <lambdabot> error: parse error on input ‘=’
2022-02-11 00:49:26 +0100 <jackdk> it's like a gap in the conceptual toolbox that you didn't know you had until you see foldMap
2022-02-11 00:49:31 +0100 <Axman6> :t \f xs -> getDual (foldMap (Dual . f) xs)
2022-02-11 00:49:32 +0100 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid a1) => (a2 -> a1) -> t a2 -> a1
2022-02-11 00:49:36 +0100 <janus> monochrom: often when you have a maybe, the function will be way larger than the Maybe. this is where i'd use for/pamDolf
2022-02-11 00:50:18 +0100 <jackdk> % :set -XBlockArguments
2022-02-11 00:50:18 +0100 <yahb> jackdk:
2022-02-11 00:50:21 +0100 <Axman6> > (\f xs -> getDual (foldMap (Dual . f) xs)) show [1..10]
2022-02-11 00:50:23 +0100 <lambdabot> "10987654321"
2022-02-11 00:50:53 +0100FragByte_(~christian@user/fragbyte)
2022-02-11 00:51:02 +0100 <jackdk> % Just 3 & foldMap \m -> Sum (m + 1)
2022-02-11 00:51:02 +0100 <yahb> jackdk: Sum {getSum = 4}
2022-02-11 00:51:03 +0100 <monochrom> The for-loop analogy may inspire very good names. forFold? foldFor?
2022-02-11 00:51:11 +0100FragByte(~christian@user/fragbyte) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022-02-11 00:51:21 +0100FragByte_FragByte
2022-02-11 00:51:21 +0100 <jackdk> I tend not to use blockarguments but find it compelling here
2022-02-11 00:51:24 +0100 <monochrom> forReduce?
2022-02-11 00:51:49 +0100cynomys(~cynomys@user/cynomys) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2022-02-11 00:51:59 +0100 <jackdk> % :set -XNoBlockArguments
2022-02-11 00:51:59 +0100 <yahb> jackdk:
2022-02-11 00:52:17 +0100 <Axman6> BlockArguments is one of the other extensions turned on by default in DAML that makes it feel just a little less cumbersome to write, and I should probably use it more in Haskell
2022-02-11 00:52:53 +0100 <janus> chris smith just posted some suggestions at https://github.com/ndmitchell/extra/issues/87#issuecomment-1035645114
2022-02-11 00:53:15 +0100 <monochrom> Lately I took a look at Koka and found a syntax sugar even better than BlockArguments.
2022-02-11 00:54:39 +0100 <monochrom> Suppose you have "f :: Foo -> Bar -> (() -> X) -> X", and you would normally use it like "f foo bar \() -> xxx"
2022-02-11 00:55:03 +0100 <monochrom> The Koka syntax sugar is "with f foo bar { xxx }". So you even omit the lambda.
2022-02-11 00:55:32 +0100 <monochrom> (Why is ()->X a useful type in Koka? Because that X is usually an effectful type, e.g., IO Y)
2022-02-11 00:56:06 +0100 <monochrom> (And Koka is call-by-value like SML and Scheme so you do want a \()-> wrapper.)
2022-02-11 00:57:55 +0100 <Axman6> what do you do if you have f :: Foo -> Bar -> (() -> Y) -> (() -> X) -> X?
2022-02-11 00:58:25 +0100 <monochrom> Ah, no nicer syntax sugar for that.
2022-02-11 00:58:30 +0100alp(~alp@user/alp)
2022-02-11 00:59:46 +0100 <monochrom> But types like the type of f are way more pervasive in Koka because it presents its effect system and library in terms of those types.
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2022-02-11 01:19:16 +0100 <Unicorn_Princess> has anyone had any luck setting up spacemacs for haskell using lsp?
2022-02-11 01:19:32 +0100deadmarshal(~deadmarsh@95.38.117.65)
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2022-02-11 01:27:45 +0100 <geekosaur> I thought it came pre-setup
2022-02-11 01:28:29 +0100 <Unicorn_Princess> alas
2022-02-11 01:28:37 +0100Inst(~delicacie@2603:3017:80:0:e0f0:ede7:d35a:3a22) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-11 01:31:38 +0100 <Unicorn_Princess> there is a 'haskell' layer, and a 'lsp' layer, and you can tell the haskell layer to use lsp as the completion back-end (i guess it doesn't use it as default? what about other, non-completion tasks?).. and there's also the auto-completion layer, which the haskell layer installation instructions claim is necessary for completion, but i in c++ where i have lsp working i didn't need auto-completion layer, and anyway after
2022-02-11 01:31:38 +0100 <Unicorn_Princess> installing hls with ghcup, something is still not working, and describe-lsp-session gives blank output
2022-02-11 01:31:50 +0100 <Unicorn_Princess> in general things are a mess :)
2022-02-11 01:32:31 +0100 <Unicorn_Princess> (and i am not remotely sure i am doing the right thing)
2022-02-11 01:33:58 +0100Inst(~delicacie@2603:3017:80:0:5cf3:2e04:7922:1ae5)
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2022-02-11 01:38:21 +0100 <shapr> Does cabal support an hpc stanza or something? How do I automate running tests with included hpc output?
2022-02-11 01:38:35 +0100 <shapr> cdsmith: How do you handle hpc with HMock?
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2022-02-11 01:49:10 +0100benin(~benin@183.82.31.24)
2022-02-11 01:50:21 +0100 <mjrosenb> I have an object that I derived Show and Binary instances for. Is it reasonable that show foo produces a 500 megabyte string, but encodeFile "bar" foo produces a 5.3 gigabyte file?
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2022-02-11 01:55:11 +0100Katarushisu(~Katarushi@cpc147334-finc20-2-0-cust27.4-2.cable.virginm.net)
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2022-02-11 02:05:28 +0100 <monochrom> Depends on the type but I can see how to design a type that causes derived Binary to be huge.
2022-02-11 02:06:10 +0100Midjak(~Midjak@may53-1-78-226-116-92.fbx.proxad.net)
2022-02-11 02:06:37 +0100 <monochrom> Consider the fact that if you have so much as "data X = C1 Int | C2 Int" then first of all every value incurs some bytes that derived Binary needs to tell itself whether the tag is C1 or C2.
2022-02-11 02:07:49 +0100jgeerds_(~jgeerds@55d4a547.access.ecotel.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-11 02:08:02 +0100 <monochrom> Next thing IIRC is that even the Int part is not simply the bytes of Int. For some reason of being general, more bytes are devoted for "the length of the next field".
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2022-02-11 02:11:35 +0100 <monochrom> Ah nevermind but it always uses 8 bytes for Int.
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2022-02-11 02:16:52 +0100 <mjrosenb> it looks like it doesn't always use 8 bytes for Word16 or Word8 :-)
2022-02-11 02:17:14 +0100 <mjrosenb> that being said, it is still 1.3 gigabytes, and I don't think I'm doing anythign all that bad
2022-02-11 02:17:46 +0100 <mjrosenb> unless it also uses a header for newtype
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2022-02-11 02:22:59 +0100 <neverwas> Unicorn_Princess: hls appears to have made significant progress since that README.org was last updated, or at least those portions characterizing it as rough around the edges and more difficult to get going (August 2020)
2022-02-11 02:25:26 +0100meer(~delicacie@2603:3017:80:0:16b:f1cd:e4c0:5b40) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2022-02-11 02:26:44 +0100wombat875(~wombat875@pool-72-89-24-154.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2022-02-11 02:27:39 +0100abhinav(~abhinav@c-67-169-139-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2022-02-11 02:31:32 +0100epolanski(uid312403@id-312403.helmsley.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2022-02-11 02:34:30 +0100 <Unicorn_Princess> neverwas, unfortunately i can't get it to work at all
2022-02-11 02:35:07 +0100 <Unicorn_Princess> but i have no idea which instructions to follow, so, maybe there's an easy way and i'm doing something stupid
2022-02-11 02:36:13 +0100waleee(~waleee@h-98-128-229-110.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-11 02:38:03 +0100abhinav(~abhinav@c-67-169-139-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: leaving)
2022-02-11 02:39:14 +0100ProfSimm(~ProfSimm@87.227.196.109)
2022-02-11 02:39:57 +0100lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2022-02-11 02:40:53 +0100waleee(~waleee@h-98-128-229-110.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
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2022-02-11 02:42:19 +0100 <Unicorn_Princess> the more i try to fix it the more broken it gets. now it doesn't even recognize the file as haskell anymore ; ;
2022-02-11 02:44:39 +0100lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2022-02-11 02:52:12 +0100waleee(~waleee@h-98-128-229-110.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
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2022-02-11 02:52:20 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
2022-02-11 02:52:20 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2022-02-11 02:53:17 +0100emf_(~emf@2620:10d:c090:400::5:83f2) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-11 02:59:14 +0100deer(~delicacie@2603:3017:80:0:9cf2:41b7:8929:babb) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2022-02-11 03:00:53 +0100 <Unicorn_Princess> i'll try and enable it in plain emacs tomorrow, no spacemacs. wish me luck.
2022-02-11 03:01:59 +0100alp(~alp@user/alp) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-11 03:02:57 +0100deer(~delicacie@2603:3017:80:0:fc91:e6a2:3374:ab63)
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2022-02-11 04:31:57 +0100[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2022-02-11 04:36:11 +0100[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2022-02-11 04:39:01 +0100FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
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2022-02-11 08:22:31 +0100anon66200164(~anon66200@host-92-19-99-147.as13285.net)
2022-02-11 08:23:50 +0100anon66200164(~anon66200@host-92-19-99-147.as13285.net) ()
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2022-02-11 10:38:08 +0100 <dminuoso> Mmm, strange we dont have `altMap :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t a -> (a -> f b) -> f b` in base
2022-02-11 10:38:27 +0100 <dminuoso> asum feels awkward to use for the same reason sequence does
2022-02-11 10:40:20 +0100 <dminuoso> % :t getAlt . foldMap Alt
2022-02-11 10:40:20 +0100 <yahb> dminuoso: forall {k} {t :: * -> *} {f :: k -> *} {a :: k}. (Foldable t, Monoid (Alt f a)) => t (f a) -> f a
2022-02-11 10:40:29 +0100`2jt(~jtomas@130.red-88-22-46.staticip.rima-tde.net)
2022-02-11 10:40:47 +0100 <dminuoso> % :set -XNoPolyKinds
2022-02-11 10:40:47 +0100 <yahb> dminuoso:
2022-02-11 10:40:48 +0100 <dminuoso> % :t getAlt . foldMap Alt
2022-02-11 10:40:48 +0100 <yahb> dminuoso: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
2022-02-11 10:40:52 +0100 <dminuoso> Guess this works
2022-02-11 10:41:36 +0100caimeo(uid540603@id-540603.lymington.irccloud.com)
2022-02-11 10:42:11 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-027.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
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2022-02-11 10:42:41 +0100 <reactormonk[m]> % :t ala Alt foldMap
2022-02-11 10:42:41 +0100 <yahb> reactormonk[m]: (Foldable t, Alternative g) => t (g b) -> g b
2022-02-11 10:43:28 +0100 <reactormonk[m]> dminuoso: ^
2022-02-11 10:43:31 +0100Vajb(~Vajb@2001:999:274:c862:3b86:e1e1:5bff:355e) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2022-02-11 10:43:34 +0100nunggu(~q@user/nunggu)
2022-02-11 10:43:38 +0100 <reactormonk[m]> Basically the same, but "fancy"
2022-02-11 10:43:47 +0100 <dminuoso> Yeah, its just I dont like depending on coercible-utils for this
2022-02-11 10:44:04 +0100 <reactormonk[m]> Understandable
2022-02-11 10:44:06 +0100 <dminuoso> `... altMap ... where altMap = getAlt . foldMap Alt` seems more sensible than fancy ala. :)
2022-02-11 10:44:30 +0100 <dminuoso> Plus it saves me from explaining yet-another fancy trick to my coworkers when they look at this
2022-02-11 10:45:29 +0100MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@wlan-145-94-218-48.wlan.tudelft.nl)
2022-02-11 10:47:12 +0100 <dminuoso> Ah hold on, getAlt . foldMap is not quite the same
2022-02-11 10:47:35 +0100 <dminuoso> % altMap f = getAlt . foldMap (Alt . f)
2022-02-11 10:47:35 +0100 <yahb> dminuoso:
2022-02-11 10:47:38 +0100 <dminuoso> Here we go
2022-02-11 10:48:07 +0100 <dminuoso> reactormonk[m]: I think coercible-utils has something for this too, right?
2022-02-11 10:48:41 +0100 <dminuoso> % :t ala' Alt foldMap
2022-02-11 10:48:41 +0100 <yahb> dminuoso: ; <interactive>:1:1: error:; * Variable not in scope: ala' :: (f0 a0 -> Alt f0 a0) -> ((a1 -> m0) -> t0 a1 -> m0) -> t; * Perhaps you meant one of these: `ala' (imported from Control.Lens), `alaf' (imported from Control.Lens)
2022-02-11 10:49:03 +0100alMalsamo(~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022-02-11 10:49:06 +0100 <dminuoso> % :t alaf Alt foldMap
2022-02-11 10:49:06 +0100 <yahb> dminuoso: (Foldable t, Alternative g) => (a -> g b) -> t a -> g b
2022-02-11 10:49:11 +0100 <dminuoso> Yeah that
2022-02-11 10:49:33 +0100alMalsamo(~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)
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2022-02-11 11:00:13 +0100Graham31415(~Graham314@130.226.236.6)
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2022-02-11 11:04:36 +0100lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:4e4d:3167:781a:2a42) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2022-02-11 11:08:26 +0100 <Graham31415> To what extent should I be worried about things in base being marked as "experimental"? Right now I'm looking at Control.Concurrency. Also, what does it mean to be "non-portable"? OS portability? Hardware platform portability? Compiler portability?
2022-02-11 11:09:11 +0100FragByte(~christian@user/fragbyte) (Quit: Quit)
2022-02-11 11:09:39 +0100ardell(~ardell@user/ardell)
2022-02-11 11:09:47 +0100 <Graham31415> Looking at the ghc git repo, https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/libraries/base/Control/Concurrent.hs hasn't been modified in 4 years.
2022-02-11 11:10:13 +0100drdo(~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu)
2022-02-11 11:11:12 +0100FragByte(~christian@user/fragbyte)
2022-02-11 11:15:00 +0100 <dminuoso> Graham31415: Not at all
2022-02-11 11:15:49 +0100mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2022-02-11 11:16:38 +0100 <Franciman> Graham31415: non portable usually means that it only works with GHC
2022-02-11 11:16:44 +0100whatsupdoc(uid509081@id-509081.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2022-02-11 11:16:56 +0100 <dminuoso> Graham31415: So some guidance can be found if you dig around hierarchial haskell libraries https://web.archive.org/web/20070629214525/http://www.haskell.org/hierarchical-modules/libraries/r…
2022-02-11 11:16:59 +0100cynomys(~cynomys@user/cynomys)
2022-02-11 11:17:10 +0100 <dminuoso> Which outlines the original intent of these wordings.
2022-02-11 11:17:34 +0100 <dminuoso> Note that `experimental`, even if adhering to that original intent, does not mean it *will* break, but merely that it will not make any promises.
2022-02-11 11:17:43 +0100mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-02-11 11:18:05 +0100 <Franciman> so you should take into account that it can break
2022-02-11 11:18:21 +0100 <Franciman> but in my experience, this happens extremely rarely
2022-02-11 11:18:26 +0100 <Franciman> for core libraries
2022-02-11 11:18:34 +0100 <dminuoso> The reality of the stability field is, its relatively meaningless
2022-02-11 11:18:51 +0100 <Graham31415> Ok, thanks. I'm guess that there's fairly little choice if one wants comparable functionality with a "stable" gaurantee?
2022-02-11 11:18:58 +0100 <dminuoso> There's a lot of libraries that promise PVP (our equivalent of SemVer), but put "stability experimental" into the cabal packages
2022-02-11 11:19:19 +0100 <dminuoso> Graham31415: Well, these fields are poorly managed - if at all.
2022-02-11 11:19:46 +0100max22-(~maxime@2a01cb08833598003ad46ecd074981ca.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2022-02-11 11:20:03 +0100 <Graham31415> Yeah, I'm getting that impression. Like the dead links all over haskell.org wiki.
2022-02-11 11:20:08 +0100yauhsien(~yauhsien@61-231-32-103.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2022-02-11 11:20:47 +0100 <dminuoso> Graham31415: But if its in base libraries, they are likely meaningful
2022-02-11 11:20:49 +0100 <dminuoso> The thing is
2022-02-11 11:21:11 +0100 <dminuoso> base is a complicated package, so per-module guarantees are probably more sensible anyway
2022-02-11 11:21:45 +0100merijn(~merijn@c-001-001-027.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
2022-02-11 11:21:48 +0100 <dminuoso> And like we pointed out, experimental does not mean "its notoriously unstable", but merely that a base version update of any kind *can* induce breaking changes
2022-02-11 11:21:57 +0100 <dminuoso> But that's unrelated to how likely that is
2022-02-11 11:24:52 +0100 <Graham31415> Cool, I think I have a better intuition about this now. I see from https://packdeps.haskellers.com/reverse/base that most packages depend on base < 5.
2022-02-11 11:25:01 +0100 <Graham31415> I'll read the PVP...
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2022-02-11 13:02:38 +0100ProfSimm(~ProfSimm@87.227.196.109)
2022-02-11 13:02:59 +0100 <ProfSimm> Are all Haskell functions technically single expression that returns (i.e. is substitued in the call)
2022-02-11 13:03:07 +0100cosimone(~user@93-47-230-95.ip115.fastwebnet.it)
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2022-02-11 13:03:40 +0100 <dminuoso> ProfSimm: The question is phrased a bit weirdly, let me rephrase what I understood
2022-02-11 13:04:04 +0100 <dminuoso> Are you asking whether `calling a function` merely constitutes `substituting with its definition`?
2022-02-11 13:04:05 +0100 <[exa]> "referential transparency" maybe?
2022-02-11 13:04:17 +0100mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-11 13:04:46 +0100vglfr(~vglfr@coupling.penchant.volia.net)
2022-02-11 13:06:15 +0100 <dminuoso> If you apply a function to its arguments, the semantics of that is the same as if you had replaced the function with its definition (modulo some desugaring for pattern matching or multiple function definitions)
2022-02-11 13:06:36 +0100 <dminuoso> Which makes it easy to understand what any code does. Just substitute in any order you like
2022-02-11 13:06:42 +0100mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-02-11 13:06:55 +0100 <dminuoso> And in fact, in principle we dont impose any order in which that substitution even happens
2022-02-11 13:06:59 +0100Akiva(~Akiva@user/Akiva) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2022-02-11 13:07:12 +0100 <dminuoso> (In the absence of certain vodoo primitives that we shall ignore for the purpose of this discussion)
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2022-02-11 13:14:16 +0100 <dminuoso> So if we have `f x = <body>`, then an expression `f 1` can be substituted with <body>, with any occurence of a free-variable `x` replaced with 1.
2022-02-11 13:14:17 +0100alp(~alp@user/alp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2022-02-11 13:26:48 +0100 <iphy> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/timers-0.2.0.4 seems dead (it's not in stackage), is there any similar package I can use?
2022-02-11 13:27:11 +0100zer0bitz(~zer0bitz@2001:2003:f74d:b800:9ab:4940:4574:a1f8)
2022-02-11 13:28:06 +0100mstksg(~jle`@cpe-23-240-75-236.socal.res.rr.com)
2022-02-11 13:29:37 +0100 <geekosaur> "notin stackage" may simply mean nobody'srequested it yet
2022-02-11 13:29:51 +0100 <geekosaur> it's not like stackage actively searches out packages to include
2022-02-11 13:30:59 +0100DNH(~DNH@2a02:8108:1100:16d8:95db:50d7:7eec:328d)
2022-02-11 13:31:09 +0100tdammers(~tdammers@77.109.72.177.res.static.edpnet.net)
2022-02-11 13:32:26 +0100 <iphy> I see
2022-02-11 13:33:49 +0100polyphem_polyphem
2022-02-11 13:36:15 +0100kfj_(~kfj@94.198.43.75)
2022-02-11 13:36:17 +0100 <iphy> I'll do extra-deps then
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2022-02-11 13:52:19 +0100 <ProfSimm> dminuoso: this question came from me wondering when does order of expressions matter and when not. For example I don't need to define a variable before i use it, but pattern matching order matters
2022-02-11 13:52:50 +0100 <dminuoso> ProfSimm: The order only matters in pattern matching.
2022-02-11 13:53:03 +0100 <dminuoso> (That and in certain magic voodoo primitives)
2022-02-11 13:53:25 +0100 <dminuoso> Those voodoo primities (seq, pseq, !) exist precisely for when one wants to control evaluation order for performance reasons.
2022-02-11 13:53:57 +0100 <dminuoso> But other than that the evaluation is left unspecified because it really doesnt matter
2022-02-11 13:54:26 +0100 <dminuoso> It's similar to math where, say if you have `(1 + 2) * (3 + 4)` it really doesnt matter whether you first reduce 1 + 3, or 3 + 4
2022-02-11 13:54:44 +0100 <dminuoso> It makes no difference, so the reader is free to do it in any way they prefer. Same story with Haskell
2022-02-11 13:55:28 +0100 <dminuoso> ontop we have non-strict semantics, which means that in reality things are only reduced if they are needed, and only up to a certain point
2022-02-11 13:55:38 +0100 <dminuoso> @src cycle
2022-02-11 13:55:38 +0100 <lambdabot> cycle [] = undefined
2022-02-11 13:55:38 +0100 <lambdabot> cycle xs = xs' where xs' = xs ++ xs'
2022-02-11 13:55:55 +0100 <dminuoso> % take 10 (cycle [1,2,3])
2022-02-11 13:55:55 +0100 <yahb> dminuoso: [1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1]
2022-02-11 13:56:32 +0100 <dminuoso> While in principle the second argument to `take` is an infinite list, because we only evaluate on demand and only up until we see a data constructor (and some other cases), this does not end up in an infinite loop
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2022-02-11 14:07:42 +0100 <ProfSimm> dminuoso: ooo, magic voodoo primitives :) ? Like what
2022-02-11 14:07:54 +0100 <ProfSimm> Oh stil reading
2022-02-11 14:08:24 +0100 <ProfSimm> dminuoso: when is order of execution for performance reasons?
2022-02-11 14:08:31 +0100 <ProfSimm> rather than semantics
2022-02-11 14:09:49 +0100alp(~alp@user/alp)
2022-02-11 14:11:41 +0100 <dminuoso> ProfSimm: So in GHC haskell we have lazyness. That means, if you write `let x = ...` there must be some representation in the implementation, and that costs memory.
2022-02-11 14:12:34 +0100 <dminuoso> So let's say we have a list of things, all of which would automatically be lazy (and thus have some memory representation for that lazyness), that means we have to keep all those representations in memory
2022-02-11 14:13:25 +0100 <dminuoso> But if we, as a programmer, know we are going to need each value regardless, then we can give additional hints to force evaluating these elements when you demand that list.
2022-02-11 14:13:42 +0100 <dminuoso> Such that this list will not contain a list of lazy things, but a list of already computed values
2022-02-11 14:14:04 +0100 <dminuoso> So as a simple example, lets say we have a tuple of three elements
2022-02-11 14:14:46 +0100 <ProfSimm> dminuoso: ah I was aware of lazy eval, but I didn't know you can force eval outside IO monad and the like
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2022-02-11 17:15:11 +0100shailangsa(~shailangs@host217-39-45-199.range217-39.btcentralplus.com)
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2022-02-11 17:18:08 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
2022-02-11 17:18:08 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2022-02-11 17:29:29 +0100 <reactormonk[m]> What's the type/name of overM, which is kinda like over, except it also uses a monad?
2022-02-11 17:30:27 +0100boxscape_(~boxscape_@p4ff0b60b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Connection closed)
2022-02-11 17:30:37 +0100wombat875(~wombat875@pool-72-89-24-154.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-11 17:31:11 +0100 <c_wraith> it has a bunch of names. mapMOf, (%%~), id, etc
2022-02-11 17:32:54 +0100wombat875(~wombat875@pool-72-89-24-154.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
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2022-02-11 17:54:18 +0100MajorBiscuit(~MajorBisc@wlan-145-94-218-48.wlan.tudelft.nl) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
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2022-02-11 18:00:40 +0100c209e6dc-4d76-47(~aditya@2601:249:4300:1296:195:dac6:592c:a55a) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2022-02-11 18:25:36 +0100 <gaff> there is a `guard` function you can use inside a do block ... i have used it before but now can not find it. where is this function defined?
2022-02-11 18:25:53 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-02-11 18:26:14 +0100 <ski> @index guard
2022-02-11 18:26:15 +0100 <lambdabot> Control.Monad
2022-02-11 18:26:25 +0100 <gaff> any link etc would be nice
2022-02-11 18:26:30 +0100 <gaff> ah
2022-02-11 18:26:32 +0100 <gaff> thanks
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2022-02-11 20:04:40 +0100califax(~califax@user/califx)
2022-02-11 20:05:20 +0100 <shapr> Is there some way to ask hoogle for all indexed instances of a typeclass? I want to stuff a value into postgres so I want "all instances of To{Row,Field}"
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2022-02-11 20:21:08 +0100 <monochrom> I don't know hoogle. But in ghci or cabal repl, :info! ToRow can help.
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2022-02-11 20:35:38 +0100 <Sqaure> So i've created this Tree like, but a fair bit more complex (3 separate types to model different parent-child relations), data type and now i realize i want it to have insert/update/delete. What would be good way to add this functionality to it? Manual hammering or implement Monad / Applicative and use some standard procedure?
2022-02-11 20:36:37 +0100mstksg(~jle`@cpe-23-240-75-236.socal.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2022-02-11 20:38:44 +0100mstksg(~jle`@cpe-23-240-75-236.socal.res.rr.com)
2022-02-11 20:39:30 +0100 <ski> i don't see how `Monad' or `Applicative' would give you insertion, update, or deletion
2022-02-11 20:39:55 +0100mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-02-11 20:40:15 +0100 <ski> (`Monad' could give you substitution. `Applicative' would give you "cartesian product")
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2022-02-11 20:41:20 +0100 <Sqaure> oh, I found som SO answer and a quick skim made me believe they relied on that. Might have been wrong there.
2022-02-11 20:43:00 +0100 <EvanR> for updating subparts of the tree you could use lenses / functional references
2022-02-11 20:44:16 +0100dcoutts(~duncan@host213-122-143-132.range213-122.btcentralplus.com)
2022-02-11 20:44:27 +0100 <EvanR> or just write a few recursive routines yourself
2022-02-11 20:44:36 +0100 <EvanR> esp if it's for practice
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2022-02-11 20:55:38 +0100 <Sqaure> EvanR, thanks. Its not for practice, it should be "optimal choice" if there is such =D.
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2022-02-11 21:12:31 +0100 <hololeap> I think I screwed up my environment, and I'm just wondering what I can do to try to debug it: http://sprunge.us/d82nVV
2022-02-11 21:16:15 +0100whatsupdoc(uid509081@id-509081.hampstead.irccloud.com)
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2022-02-11 21:21:28 +0100 <Cale> hololeap: does ghc-pkg check tell you anything?
2022-02-11 21:21:38 +0100mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-02-11 21:23:39 +0100 <hololeap> yeah, there are a ton of broken packages. I just haven't seen ghc panic before, but fixing the breakages will likely help?
2022-02-11 21:26:37 +0100slowtyper(~slowtyper@user/slowtyper)
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2022-02-11 21:26:53 +0100justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
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2022-02-11 21:30:48 +0100trccc(~trccc@2-104-60-169-cable.dk.customer.tdc.net)
2022-02-11 21:31:56 +0100 <trccc> Is there a way to get the path to where cabal put its compiled executable? e.g. I know it is here: ./dist-newstyle/build/x86_64-linux/ghc-8.10.7/hs-hello-sleep-0.1.0.0/x/hs-hello-sleep/build/hs-hello-sleep/hs-hello-sleep but can I issue some cabal command to print the path so I can get it in my scripts?
2022-02-11 21:32:32 +0100alp(~alp@user/alp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022-02-11 21:34:24 +0100 <monochrom> cabal list-bin can help. Something along the line of cabal list-bin hs-hello-sleep
2022-02-11 21:34:59 +0100 <trccc> perfect thanks!
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2022-02-11 21:37:03 +0100 <sm> hololeap: sounds like a good move
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2022-02-11 21:44:45 +0100mon_aaraj(~MonAaraj@user/mon-aaraj/x-4416475)
2022-02-11 21:48:29 +0100slowtyper(~slowtyper@user/slowtyper) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2022-02-11 21:49:07 +0100slowtyper(~slowtyper@user/slowtyper)
2022-02-11 21:50:45 +0100 <janus> hololeap: that package also takes forever to build for me
2022-02-11 21:51:07 +0100 <janus> hololeap: i did 'cabal repl -b lsp-types -w ghc-9.0.2' and i have waited a while now
2022-02-11 21:51:48 +0100 <janus> and then i get "warning: no exposed modules"
2022-02-11 21:52:29 +0100 <hololeap> hm, I don't know about that. This panic happens almost immediately for me. I tried it in another environment and it at least begins to compile, so it seems like cleaning up that env is the best idea
2022-02-11 21:52:53 +0100 <janus> well it does compile
2022-02-11 21:52:57 +0100 <janus> and it did finish just now
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