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| 2021-11-21 00:39:14 +0100 | hololeap | (~hololeap@user/hololeap) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-11-21 00:40:00 +0100 | <timCF_> | Is there the way to unlift somehow name of the type (just normal kind *) from type level (in case of usage from generic function) to value level (for example a String)? |
| 2021-11-21 00:41:01 +0100 | <geekosaur> | not entirely sure what you're talking about |
| 2021-11-21 00:41:14 +0100 | <geekosaur> | types don't exist at runtime so their names normally aren't known |
| 2021-11-21 00:42:07 +0100 | <geekosaur> | there is Data.Typeable which carries type information in a dictionary at runtime, but (a) it won't work for polymorphic types (b) you need to carry it around in your types |
| 2021-11-21 00:42:07 +0100 | <timCF_> | Something like `showType :: forall a. a -> String` |
| 2021-11-21 00:42:34 +0100 | <EvanR> | that type doesn't have enough information to work |
| 2021-11-21 00:42:36 +0100 | <geekosaur> | :t typeOf |
| 2021-11-21 00:42:38 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Typeable a => a -> TypeRep |
| 2021-11-21 00:42:42 +0100 | <awpr> | > show (typeRep (Proxy @Int)) |
| 2021-11-21 00:42:43 +0100 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:22: error: parse error on input ‘@’ |
| 2021-11-21 00:42:46 +0100 | <EvanR> | :t show . typeOf |
| 2021-11-21 00:42:47 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Typeable a => a -> String |
| 2021-11-21 00:43:06 +0100 | <timCF_> | Exactly what I wanted |
| 2021-11-21 00:43:11 +0100 | <timCF_> | Thanks! |
| 2021-11-21 00:43:44 +0100 | <EvanR> | interested to see how you end up with an unknown type at runtime xD |
| 2021-11-21 00:44:35 +0100 | <timCF_> | hmmm |
| 2021-11-21 00:44:50 +0100 | <geekosaur> | betting it's polymorphic, in which case as I said this won't work |
| 2021-11-21 00:45:02 +0100 | <timCF_> | actually why I do even need a value of "a"? |
| 2021-11-21 00:45:06 +0100 | <geekosaur> | you can't find out the actual type it was called at |
| 2021-11-21 00:45:33 +0100 | <timCF_> | why just not `showType :: forall a. String` |
| 2021-11-21 00:45:35 +0100 | <awpr> | you don't need a value; there's a Proxy version, or `undefined` will work |
| 2021-11-21 00:45:59 +0100 | <awpr> | `base` tends to avoid using ambiguous types that need TypeApplications to work |
| 2021-11-21 00:46:03 +0100 | <timCF_> | and then `showType @a` from some generic function |
| 2021-11-21 00:46:11 +0100 | <timCF_> | aa |
| 2021-11-21 00:46:14 +0100 | <geekosaur> | also Typeable predates Proxy and TypeApplications |
| 2021-11-21 00:46:24 +0100 | <EvanR> | forall a . String is a constant |
| 2021-11-21 00:46:41 +0100 | <timCF_> | it's kinda a function on types |
| 2021-11-21 00:46:42 +0100 | myShoggoth | (~myShoggot@97-120-85-195.ptld.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 00:46:50 +0100 | <awpr> | you can write that API, though: `showType :: forall a. Typeable a => String` `showType = show (typeRep @a Proxy)` |
| 2021-11-21 00:46:52 +0100 | <timCF_> | but on value level it's a constant |
| 2021-11-21 00:46:54 +0100 | <EvanR> | your're mixing levels now |
| 2021-11-21 00:47:01 +0100 | Jing | (~hedgehog@2604:a840:3::1094) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 2021-11-21 00:47:43 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) |
| 2021-11-21 00:47:56 +0100 | <awpr> | type parameters don't exist at runtime (at least until `foreach` from distant-future dependent haskell becomes a thing), so there needs to be something passed in to identify the type at runtime if it's going to be something other than a constant (in this case, a `Typeable` instance) |
| 2021-11-21 00:49:17 +0100 | kayvank | (~soostone@52-119-115-185.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-11-21 00:56:13 +0100 | <timCF_> | Yeah, typeRep works perfectly with Proxy type. Cool stuff! |
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| 2021-11-21 01:34:11 +0100 | Lord_of_Life_ | Lord_of_Life |
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| 2021-11-21 02:04:47 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@24.105.81.50) |
| 2021-11-21 02:06:12 +0100 | <arahael> | maerwald: just had a look for the missing libraries... libtinfo.so.6 does not exist in alpine. it's a transitional package, too. |
| 2021-11-21 02:06:40 +0100 | <arahael> | maerwald: so it's looking very unlikely that there is an easy way for me to get haskell going in this environmenr. |
| 2021-11-21 02:07:01 +0100 | <geekosaur> | symlink to libncurses.so.6 |
| 2021-11-21 02:08:06 +0100 | <geekosaur> | ideally configure would detect lack of libtinfo and use libncurses instead |
| 2021-11-21 02:09:43 +0100 | <arahael> | hmm. what about libnuma? |
| 2021-11-21 02:09:54 +0100 | <geekosaur> | that one I don't know |
| 2021-11-21 02:11:13 +0100 | <geekosaur> | on my ubuntu it's from libnuma1, but that probably doesn't help |
| 2021-11-21 02:11:23 +0100 | albet70 | (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-11-21 02:12:25 +0100 | alx741 | (~alx741@186.178.109.242) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 02:14:11 +0100 | <arahael> | i think i have it in the numacl package so lets try that... |
| 2021-11-21 02:14:13 +0100 | <geekosaur> | https://pkgs.alpinelinux.org/contents?branch=edge&name=numactl-dev&arch=x86&repo=main |
| 2021-11-21 02:14:19 +0100 | <arahael> | that! :) |
| 2021-11-21 02:14:51 +0100 | <geekosaur> | lso I just noticed you pointed to a .so but you won't find those on alpine iirc, it's all static |
| 2021-11-21 02:15:00 +0100 | <geekosaur> | so you still have a problem |
| 2021-11-21 02:15:52 +0100 | <geekosaur> | I thought we had a static/alpine build of ghc somewhere though |
| 2021-11-21 02:15:59 +0100 | geekosaur | digs |
| 2021-11-21 02:16:29 +0100 | whatsupdoc | (uid509081@hampstead.irccloud.com) |
| 2021-11-21 02:17:11 +0100 | <arahael> | No, there's .so files too. |
| 2021-11-21 02:17:18 +0100 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.10.7/ghc-8.10.7-x86_64-alpine3.10-linux-integer-simple.tar.xz ? |
| 2021-11-21 02:17:29 +0100 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2021-11-21 02:17:30 +0100 | <arahael> | Yeah, but I'm on aarch64 |
| 2021-11-21 02:17:30 +0100 | albet70 | (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) |
| 2021-11-21 02:17:34 +0100 | <geekosaur> | oh |
| 2021-11-21 02:17:43 +0100 | <geekosaur> | dunno about that one |
| 2021-11-21 02:18:00 +0100 | <arahael> | It's been confirmed you guys don't have it. |
| 2021-11-21 02:18:26 +0100 | wroathe | (~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 2021-11-21 02:18:26 +0100 | wroathe | (~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Changing host) |
| 2021-11-21 02:18:26 +0100 | wroathe | (~wroathe@user/wroathe) |
| 2021-11-21 02:18:40 +0100 | <geekosaur> | and if you need a libnuma.so then numactl won't have iot, it's only got a static library |
| 2021-11-21 02:18:53 +0100 | <arahael> | No, I've got it now, had to install that. |
| 2021-11-21 02:19:27 +0100 | <arahael> | Hmm... What's teh difference between libncursesw and libncurses, I have the former... |
| 2021-11-21 02:19:58 +0100 | <geekosaur> | there isn't one in api level 6 |
| 2021-11-21 02:20:02 +0100 | mimmy | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:1f:67de:401b:c472) |
| 2021-11-21 02:20:13 +0100 | <geekosaur> | used to be that ncursesw was wide character (unicode) support |
| 2021-11-21 02:20:16 +0100 | <arahael> | Ah. |
| 2021-11-21 02:20:26 +0100 | burnsidesLlama | (~burnsides@dhcp168-012.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-11-21 02:20:44 +0100 | <arahael> | Hmm, ok, so I think it just don't work - I have now satisfied all libraries but still three missing symbols. |
| 2021-11-21 02:21:00 +0100 | <arahael> | Missing symbols: gnu_dev_makedev, gnu_dev_major, gnu_dev_minor |
| 2021-11-21 02:21:20 +0100 | <geekosaur> | uh. that's a libc issue |
| 2021-11-21 02:21:44 +0100 | <arahael> | Seems like ghcup's binary isn't compiled for my system at all then. |
| 2021-11-21 02:22:05 +0100 | <geekosaur> | sounds like somehow they got a few glibc headers mixed in with musl? |
| 2021-11-21 02:22:22 +0100 | <geekosaur> | because I'd expect those to be macros |
| 2021-11-21 02:23:05 +0100 | <arahael> | maerwald: Has pointed out there's no bindist for this system, though I assumed he was referring to the static bindists. |
| 2021-11-21 02:23:13 +0100 | <arahael> | But I guess there isn't one at all. |
| 2021-11-21 02:23:38 +0100 | <arahael> | s/:/, :) |
| 2021-11-21 02:23:44 +0100 | jushur | (~human@user/jushur) |
| 2021-11-21 02:24:22 +0100 | <arahael> | I think I may be best investigating rust instead if I want to support this system. |
| 2021-11-21 02:26:20 +0100 | alx741 | (~alx741@186.178.108.219) |
| 2021-11-21 02:26:47 +0100 | mimmy | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:1f:67de:401b:c472) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 02:27:10 +0100 | <arahael> | (Especially since I haven't actually written this yet, though, I do really like the idea of using haskell's network-simple-tls.) |
| 2021-11-21 02:33:35 +0100 | <arahael> | I could consider compiling haskell, but I've no other compiler to bootstrap it, so it's still back to cross compiling, and I'm not really keen to get into that with haskell. |
| 2021-11-21 02:59:25 +0100 | deadmarshal | (~deadmarsh@95.38.116.117) |
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| 2021-11-21 03:15:43 +0100 | <danso> | is (->) mathematically a bifunctor, but isn't in haskell for practical computery reasons? |
| 2021-11-21 03:18:03 +0100 | <awpr> | the Bifunctor class is a very specific form of bifunctor that (->) isn't |
| 2021-11-21 03:18:11 +0100 | zaquest | (~notzaques@5.130.79.72) |
| 2021-11-21 03:18:23 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) |
| 2021-11-21 03:18:53 +0100 | <awpr> | Bifunctor is Hask x Hask -> Hask bifunctors, but (->) is Hask_op x Hask -> Hask. for that, there's Profunctor |
| 2021-11-21 03:20:57 +0100 | <danso> | hm ok thanks |
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| 2021-11-21 04:14:35 +0100 | lagash | Guest7361 |
| 2021-11-21 04:14:35 +0100 | Guest7361 | (lagash@lagash.freeirc.org) (Killed (calcium.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services))) |
| 2021-11-21 04:14:48 +0100 | lagash_ | (lagash@lagash.freeirc.org) |
| 2021-11-21 04:15:22 +0100 | jbox | (~jbox@user/jbox) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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| 2021-11-21 05:01:05 +0100 | dsamperi | (~dsamperi@2603-7000-3b42-5400-696c-e6d5-a38c-bff7.res6.spectrum.com) |
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| 2021-11-21 05:03:53 +0100 | <dsamperi> | Have recent revisions of GHC provided a work-around for the fact that field names have file/module scope? SPJ says something about this in his lecture on Lenses. |
| 2021-11-21 05:05:06 +0100 | mimmy | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:c9bb:e46c:7fac:4568) |
| 2021-11-21 05:07:01 +0100 | wei2912 | (~wei2912@138.75.71.147) |
| 2021-11-21 05:07:37 +0100 | xkuru | (~xkuru@user/xkuru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2021-11-21 05:08:31 +0100 | <dsal> | There's nothing special about field names in that regard. You can choose to or choose not to export those symbols. |
| 2021-11-21 05:08:45 +0100 | <dsal> | There are new features that allow you to have records without generating the accessor functions. |
| 2021-11-21 05:08:52 +0100 | <dsal> | And a few other weird record hacks. |
| 2021-11-21 05:09:59 +0100 | mimmy | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:c9bb:e46c:7fac:4568) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 05:10:42 +0100 | jbox | (~jbox@user/jbox) |
| 2021-11-21 05:11:41 +0100 | <sm> | a growing number of weird record hacks |
| 2021-11-21 05:14:57 +0100 | <dsamperi> | Simon suggested a future release might include a work-around for field name conflicts in the same module using Lens library. |
| 2021-11-21 05:15:17 +0100 | ralu | (~ralu@static.211.245.203.116.clients.your-server.de) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) |
| 2021-11-21 05:20:17 +0100 | helby | (helby@alpine/moderator/helby) |
| 2021-11-21 05:22:42 +0100 | <helby> | Hey, I am not familiar with cabal/ghc, trying to build HsOpenSSL on OpenBSD and had some errors ;/ https://envs.sh/E2h.log |
| 2021-11-21 05:23:45 +0100 | ralu | (~ralu@static.211.245.203.116.clients.your-server.de) |
| 2021-11-21 05:29:51 +0100 | <dsal> | dsamperi: It's unclear what you mean. lens can do this with "classy" lenses, but you can't just make a function mean different things. |
| 2021-11-21 05:30:50 +0100 | <dsal> | You can always qualify symbols to the module that's exporting them. |
| 2021-11-21 05:31:47 +0100 | <helby> | it would help if at least I know what these errors means ;/ |
| 2021-11-21 05:32:52 +0100 | <awpr> | this kinda looks like an incompatibility between some low-level Haskell/C interface code and the C headers your system provides |
| 2021-11-21 05:33:24 +0100 | <awpr> | the error is coming from C land, where something is trying to find the offset of a struct field, in a type that's not been defined yet, only forward-declared |
| 2021-11-21 05:33:27 +0100 | rtsn | (~nstr@c-c7fe225c.07-59-7570703.bbcust.telenor.se) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 05:33:46 +0100 | rtsn | (~nstr@c-c7fe225c.07-59-7570703.bbcust.telenor.se) |
| 2021-11-21 05:34:56 +0100 | <helby> | well openbsd uses libressl, not openssl, don't know if it can be related, but I assume |
| 2021-11-21 05:35:14 +0100 | <awpr> | that sounds like it's probably the issue |
| 2021-11-21 05:38:15 +0100 | <awpr> | from skimming the issue tracker, it looks like it intends to support libressl, maybe on a best-effort basis. it might be worth filing a bug report https://github.com/vshabanov/HsOpenSSL/issues |
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| 2021-11-21 05:41:07 +0100 | dsamperi | (~dsamperi@2603-7000-3b42-5400-696c-e6d5-a38c-bff7.res6.spectrum.com) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
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| 2021-11-21 08:12:11 +0100 | cheater1__ | cheater |
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| 2021-11-21 09:54:12 +0100 | <albet70> | what's the relationship between json and yaml? |
| 2021-11-21 09:58:09 +0100 | <sm> | four letter names, plain text, popular, overused, hard to displace |
| 2021-11-21 09:58:19 +0100 | <pavonia> | JSON is a subset of YAML |
| 2021-11-21 10:01:00 +0100 | burnsidesLlama | (~burnsides@dhcp168-012.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-11-21 10:01:27 +0100 | <[exa]> | also, parsing json is afaik decidable |
| 2021-11-21 10:01:37 +0100 | <[exa]> | albet70: you meant the packages right? :D |
| 2021-11-21 10:02:16 +0100 | <albet70> | "🟢 [exa] :albet70: you meant the packages right? :D", just the name |
| 2021-11-21 10:03:02 +0100 | <albet70> | "pavonia :JSON is a subset of YAML", aha |
| 2021-11-21 10:05:15 +0100 | MoC | (~moc@user/moc) |
| 2021-11-21 10:07:21 +0100 | <albet70> | is that simple to use parsec to parse yaml? I tried json at once |
| 2021-11-21 10:07:56 +0100 | <albet70> | or megaparsec? |
| 2021-11-21 10:10:45 +0100 | jonathanx_ | (~jonathan@h-178-174-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se) |
| 2021-11-21 10:14:36 +0100 | deadmarshal | (~deadmarsh@95.38.116.117) |
| 2021-11-21 10:17:33 +0100 | geekosaur | (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by allbery_b))) |
| 2021-11-21 10:17:33 +0100 | allbery_b | (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) |
| 2021-11-21 10:17:36 +0100 | allbery_b | geekosaur |
| 2021-11-21 10:18:06 +0100 | Tuplanolla | (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-50.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 2021-11-21 10:21:48 +0100 | <[exa]> | albet70: there's the specialized parser in `yaml` package that can be recommended, but if you are okay with parsing a decent safe subset of yaml, megaparsec should just work |
| 2021-11-21 10:22:37 +0100 | <[exa]> | there's even some support for autoparsing the indentation blocks, which well, you know, helps a lot. |
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| 2021-11-21 11:12:16 +0100 | phma_ | phma |
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| 2021-11-21 11:45:53 +0100 | DNH | (~DNH@2a02:8108:1100:16d8:7892:4ebf:89a7:d96) |
| 2021-11-21 11:46:00 +0100 | m4lvin_ | (~m4lvin@w4eg.de) (Quit: m4lvin_) |
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| 2021-11-21 11:48:08 +0100 | linkedlistist | (uid528169@lymington.irccloud.com) |
| 2021-11-21 11:48:12 +0100 | <smunix> | modified |
| 2021-11-21 11:48:38 +0100 | [exa] | welcomes the change |
| 2021-11-21 11:48:50 +0100 | chisui | (~chisui@2001:16b8:666f:100:7a17:7081:22e6:bcd) |
| 2021-11-21 11:49:37 +0100 | <linkedlistist> | Hey, folks, does anyone have any experience of calling Haskell from Rust? |
| 2021-11-21 11:50:08 +0100 | yushyin | (XNontZhIIh@karif.server-speed.net) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3) |
| 2021-11-21 11:50:18 +0100 | yushyin | (3RNeQpThcJ@karif.server-speed.net) |
| 2021-11-21 11:53:57 +0100 | jgeerds | (~jgeerds@55d45b75.access.ecotel.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 11:57:51 +0100 | kupi | (uid212005@hampstead.irccloud.com) |
| 2021-11-21 11:58:23 +0100 | lavaman | (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) |
| 2021-11-21 12:00:51 +0100 | alx741 | (~alx741@186.178.108.219) |
| 2021-11-21 12:01:15 +0100 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) |
| 2021-11-21 12:02:58 +0100 | lavaman | (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 12:06:04 +0100 | MoC | (~moc@user/moc) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 2021-11-21 12:07:14 +0100 | drownbes | (~drownbes@200-149-20-81.sta.estpak.ee) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 12:08:46 +0100 | pfurla | (~pfurla@2804:14d:5c81:4104:d41b:9326:c4d8:9f2a) (Quit: gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2021-11-21 12:13:28 +0100 | <[exa]> | linkedlistist: it should be possible using the "reverse FFI" as from C, given Rust can call C symbols with ccall. |
| 2021-11-21 12:14:01 +0100 | mimmy | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:e15c:d2bc:9fea:d850) |
| 2021-11-21 12:15:06 +0100 | <[exa]> | i.e., just simulate what's happening in here https://wiki.haskell.org/Calling_Haskell_from_C |
| 2021-11-21 12:15:29 +0100 | <[exa]> | you'll just need to take the `test.rs` and compile it yourself to `.o` |
| 2021-11-21 12:15:52 +0100 | <albet70> | haha, calling haskell from rust |
| 2021-11-21 12:16:18 +0100 | <[exa]> | like, honestly I'd expect the other way around. |
| 2021-11-21 12:16:19 +0100 | <[exa]> | :D |
| 2021-11-21 12:16:27 +0100 | <albet70> | nowadays, people always compare those two |
| 2021-11-21 12:16:46 +0100 | <albet70> | which one is better or harder to learn |
| 2021-11-21 12:17:40 +0100 | <[exa]> | yeah comparing the incomparable is a popular fun. :D |
| 2021-11-21 12:18:29 +0100 | yauhsien | (~yauhsien@118-167-40-224.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) |
| 2021-11-21 12:18:33 +0100 | <[exa]> | nyway rust is pretty good, at least for beginners who require the tooling, esp. compared to the other languages in that niche |
| 2021-11-21 12:18:39 +0100 | <[exa]> | seriously looking forward to how that develops |
| 2021-11-21 12:18:55 +0100 | mimmy | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:e15c:d2bc:9fea:d850) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 12:19:01 +0100 | <albet70> | I saw there was a rust book in the library, and it's so big I mean there're too many pages, so I didn't learn rust from there |
| 2021-11-21 12:20:27 +0100 | <albet70> | and then I saw learn yourself a haskell for good, it doesn't have so many pages, so I buy it and learn haskell |
| 2021-11-21 12:21:31 +0100 | <sshine> | albet70, I started solving the Rustlings tutorial. it's a nice alternative to reading a book. |
| 2021-11-21 12:21:33 +0100 | <albet70> | it's a good book for beginners, but it lacks lots of concepts |
| 2021-11-21 12:21:55 +0100 | <albet70> | sshine, does it have so many pages? |
| 2021-11-21 12:22:04 +0100 | <sshine> | it's not a book. |
| 2021-11-21 12:22:32 +0100 | lavaman | (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) |
| 2021-11-21 12:23:07 +0100 | <sshine> | it's a git repository. you download it, set up a development environment, enable "file watch" (turn the compiler to recompile the tutorial project every time a file is changed), and start fixing intentional bugs left in each tutorial file. when you're done with one file, the next file complains. |
| 2021-11-21 12:23:11 +0100 | yauhsien | (~yauhsien@118-167-40-224.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 12:23:25 +0100 | <albet70> | also there's another language that comes to compare with haskell, scala |
| 2021-11-21 12:23:31 +0100 | <sshine> | eventually, when you get to the stuff about borrowed pointers, I do feel the need to read up. but I can still use just online resources. |
| 2021-11-21 12:23:52 +0100 | chisui | (~chisui@2001:16b8:666f:100:7a17:7081:22e6:bcd) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2021-11-21 12:24:25 +0100 | <albet70> | haskell, rust, scala those three are very argued |
| 2021-11-21 12:24:59 +0100 | <sshine> | they're argued? |
| 2021-11-21 12:25:03 +0100 | <albet70> | the pointers, is like C or C++? |
| 2021-11-21 12:25:15 +0100 | <sshine> | yes, but stronger typed pointers. |
| 2021-11-21 12:26:29 +0100 | <albet70> | C's pointers are not typed? |
| 2021-11-21 12:26:50 +0100 | <sshine> | they're loosely typed. you almost always have to cast things eventually. |
| 2021-11-21 12:26:54 +0100 | <albet70> | I totally forget how to write C |
| 2021-11-21 12:26:55 +0100 | lavaman | (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 12:27:36 +0100 | <yushyin> | good old voidpointers ;) |
| 2021-11-21 12:27:38 +0100 | <sshine> | and function pointers in C are somewhat of a hack. |
| 2021-11-21 12:27:40 +0100 | <albet70> | I most use python or kotlin at work |
| 2021-11-21 12:27:42 +0100 | <sshine> | yeah :) |
| 2021-11-21 12:28:17 +0100 | waleee | (~waleee@2001:9b0:216:8200:d457:9189:7843:1dbd) |
| 2021-11-21 12:28:49 +0100 | <sshine> | rust differentiates between references, pointers, whether they're mutable/immutable, and several kinds of smart pointers: https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch15-00-smart-pointers.html -- depending on the use-case. |
| 2021-11-21 12:29:11 +0100 | chomwitt | (~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc2d:ec00:12c3:7bff:fe6d:d374) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 12:35:53 +0100 | mimmy | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:e15c:d2bc:9fea:d850) |
| 2021-11-21 12:39:32 +0100 | <albet70> | could >> implement in other languages? |
| 2021-11-21 12:39:40 +0100 | <albet70> | be implemented |
| 2021-11-21 12:40:49 +0100 | mimmy | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:e15c:d2bc:9fea:d850) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 12:45:45 +0100 | ubert | (~Thunderbi@p548c9fcb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: ubert) |
| 2021-11-21 12:46:06 +0100 | ubert | (~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf0ba2db387348ed975200f7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2021-11-21 12:49:00 +0100 | Midjak | (~Midjak@82-65-111-221.subs.proxad.net) |
| 2021-11-21 12:53:36 +0100 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@2001:16b8:6774:9a00:78e5:1df2:55f8:981b) |
| 2021-11-21 12:58:30 +0100 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@2001:16b8:6774:9a00:78e5:1df2:55f8:981b) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 13:00:00 +0100 | wei2912 | (~wei2912@138.75.71.147) (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 2021-11-21 13:00:08 +0100 | <geekosaur> | it has been implemented, although it has shortcomings because very few languages are polymorphic in the way Haskell is |
| 2021-11-21 13:00:19 +0100 | <geekosaur> | usually it's called "andthen" |
| 2021-11-21 13:00:58 +0100 | zer0bitz | (~zer0bitz@2001:2003:f6bc:f00:5be:28c2:b3af:e641) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 13:01:22 +0100 | zer0bitz | (~zer0bitz@dsl-hkibng31-54fabc-15.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 2021-11-21 13:06:17 +0100 | lavaman | (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) |
| 2021-11-21 13:07:14 +0100 | nf | (~n@monade.li) (Quit: Fairfarren.) |
| 2021-11-21 13:07:19 +0100 | <albet70> | geekosaur, has it been implemented in python? |
| 2021-11-21 13:07:29 +0100 | AlexNoo_ | AlexNoo |
| 2021-11-21 13:07:35 +0100 | <albet70> | and what it looks like? |
| 2021-11-21 13:07:48 +0100 | <geekosaur> | I don't do python so I don't know |
| 2021-11-21 13:07:55 +0100 | <geekosaur> | probably someone has |
| 2021-11-21 13:09:01 +0100 | nf | (~n@monade.li) |
| 2021-11-21 13:09:05 +0100 | Pickchea | (~private@user/pickchea) |
| 2021-11-21 13:09:42 +0100 | <albet70> | ok |
| 2021-11-21 13:10:14 +0100 | notzmv | (~zmv@user/notzmv) |
| 2021-11-21 13:11:26 +0100 | Feuermagier_ | (~Feuermagi@154.28.188.151) |
| 2021-11-21 13:11:34 +0100 | vgtw | (~vgtw@c-6a60205c.07-348-756d651.bbcust.telenor.se) (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) |
| 2021-11-21 13:11:59 +0100 | vgtw | (~vgtw@c-6a60205c.07-348-756d651.bbcust.telenor.se) |
| 2021-11-21 13:12:02 +0100 | <albet70> | geekosaur, I googled python andThen, and it gives me "compose"... |
| 2021-11-21 13:12:07 +0100 | Feuermagier_ | (~Feuermagi@154.28.188.151) (Client Quit) |
| 2021-11-21 13:12:13 +0100 | <albet70> | composing functions |
| 2021-11-21 13:12:53 +0100 | <geekosaur> | mm, that may mean it's as close as it gets then |
| 2021-11-21 13:12:53 +0100 | Feuermagier_ | (~Feuermagi@154.28.188.151) |
| 2021-11-21 13:13:18 +0100 | <geekosaur> | like I said, most languages aren't as polymorphic as Haskell is, the whole concept of "monad" is difficult for them |
| 2021-11-21 13:13:19 +0100 | <albet70> | I saw some python code using >>, I was very curious it, because I know what it's doing in haskell, then I wonder why someone in python would use it |
| 2021-11-21 13:13:39 +0100 | Feuermagier_ | (~Feuermagi@154.28.188.151) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-11-21 13:13:40 +0100 | Feuermagier | (~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-11-21 13:13:52 +0100 | Feuermagier | (~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) |
| 2021-11-21 13:14:22 +0100 | <albet70> | and then I read the code in python, it makes no sense |
| 2021-11-21 13:14:54 +0100 | <yushyin> | maybe something similar in the future/promises api of python |
| 2021-11-21 13:15:22 +0100 | <albet70> | so I wonder the author write that, it seems he/she knowing >> like haskell, but they implement it wrong |
| 2021-11-21 13:15:42 +0100 | <yushyin> | https://docs.python.org/3/library/asyncio-future.html?#asyncio.Future.add_done_callback |
| 2021-11-21 13:21:47 +0100 | burnsidesLlama | (~burnsides@dhcp168-012.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 2021-11-21 13:54:08 +0100 | MidAutumnMoon | (~MidAutumn@user/midautumnmoon) (Quit: Leaving for a break - theLounge) |
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| 2021-11-21 13:54:45 +0100 | pretty_dumm_guy | (trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) |
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| 2021-11-21 13:58:44 +0100 | burnsidesLlama | (~burnsides@dhcp168-012.wadham.ox.ac.uk) |
| 2021-11-21 14:00:58 +0100 | Feuermagier | (~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2021-11-21 14:01:32 +0100 | max22- | (~maxime@lfbn-ren-1-762-224.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 14:02:32 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 14:03:44 +0100 | slowButPresent | (~slowButPr@user/slowbutpresent) |
| 2021-11-21 14:04:12 +0100 | <albet70> | is >> related to . ? |
| 2021-11-21 14:04:23 +0100 | burnsidesLlama | (~burnsides@dhcp168-012.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 14:05:09 +0100 | <albet70> | when m~ r->, <$> equal to . |
| 2021-11-21 14:05:34 +0100 | <albet70> | what about >> ? |
| 2021-11-21 14:05:35 +0100 | <geekosaur> | you could say >>= is . on a higher level. Arrowes were intended to capture that abstraction but it never quite worked in practice |
| 2021-11-21 14:05:54 +0100 | <geekosaur> | >> is just >>= discarding the input but keeping any effects |
| 2021-11-21 14:06:02 +0100 | <geekosaur> | *Arrows |
| 2021-11-21 14:06:31 +0100 | mikoto-chan | (~mikoto-ch@esm-84-240-99-143.netplaza.fi) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 14:07:27 +0100 | <albet70> | :t (>>) |
| 2021-11-21 14:07:28 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => m a -> m b -> m b |
| 2021-11-21 14:07:40 +0100 | <albet70> | :t (>>=) |
| 2021-11-21 14:07:41 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b |
| 2021-11-21 14:08:13 +0100 | <albet70> | :t (.) |
| 2021-11-21 14:08:14 +0100 | <lambdabot> | (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c |
| 2021-11-21 14:09:41 +0100 | <geekosaur> | % :t (>>) @((->) _) -- let's see if this works |
| 2021-11-21 14:09:41 +0100 | <yahb> | geekosaur: (w -> a) -> (w -> b) -> w -> b |
| 2021-11-21 14:10:13 +0100 | <geekosaur> | not quite the same, but you can see the similarity |
| 2021-11-21 14:10:35 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2001:1a81:526f:1d00:936b:4a50:cc7a:54ee) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 14:10:43 +0100 | <albet70> | "geekosaur :% :t (>>) @((->) _) -- let's see if this works", what this mean? |
| 2021-11-21 14:10:55 +0100 | <albet70> | that @ |
| 2021-11-21 14:11:05 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2001:1a81:526f:1d00:2bb4:8855:a1a6:d69e) |
| 2021-11-21 14:11:17 +0100 | <geekosaur> | it's a type application. I had to direct it to yahb because lambdabot doesn't understand type applications |
| 2021-11-21 14:11:48 +0100 | <geekosaur> | so I in effect told it to expand the type of (>>) using ((->) r) (function application) as the monad |
| 2021-11-21 14:12:32 +0100 | <albet70> | alright, when m~ (w->) |
| 2021-11-21 14:13:25 +0100 | <albet70> | but >> is similarity to >>=, not (.) |
| 2021-11-21 14:13:48 +0100 | <albet70> | (.) would be like (b -> c) -> m b -> m c |
| 2021-11-21 14:14:08 +0100 | <albet70> | >> like m a -> m b -> m b |
| 2021-11-21 14:14:44 +0100 | <geekosaur> | % :t (>>=) @((->) _) |
| 2021-11-21 14:14:44 +0100 | <yahb> | geekosaur: (w -> a) -> (a -> w -> b) -> w -> b |
| 2021-11-21 14:15:10 +0100 | <geekosaur> | this is closer to (.) but has that extra parameter in the middle |
| 2021-11-21 14:15:25 +0100 | mimmy | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:8ce9:9a4:40aa:9fe2) |
| 2021-11-21 14:15:46 +0100 | <geekosaur> | this is part of why Arrows never quite worked; there is a strong abstract similarity to (.) but not even Haskell can quite capture it |
| 2021-11-21 14:16:35 +0100 | <geekosaur> | actually we have a sort-of way now via Control.Category, but I think that requires you understand some category theory to work with it |
| 2021-11-21 14:16:52 +0100 | <geekosaur> | since it's modeling categories to capture the abstraction |
| 2021-11-21 14:17:46 +0100 | <albet70> | "yahb :geekosaur: (w -> a) -> (a -> w -> b) -> w -> b", (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c I don't see how this similarity |
| 2021-11-21 14:18:13 +0100 | <albet70> | not just the extra parameter in the middle |
| 2021-11-21 14:19:45 +0100 | <albet70> | when b~w, c~a, it would like (w->a) -> (x ->w) -> (x -> a) |
| 2021-11-21 14:20:42 +0100 | <geekosaur> | right, it's thrown off because the ((->) r) monad always injects that extra "r" (we call it "r" by convention but yahb called it "w") |
| 2021-11-21 14:21:12 +0100 | <geekosaur> | I used it because it comes closest to looking like (.) but the extra "w" complicates things |
| 2021-11-21 14:23:40 +0100 | <geekosaur> | Arrows make things fit together more directly by wrapping Monad in Kleisli, but at the cost that you have to use `arr` which strongly limits its usefulness |
| 2021-11-21 14:24:12 +0100 | Guest17 | (~Guest17@eth-west-pareq2-46-193-4-100.wb.wifirst.net) |
| 2021-11-21 14:26:28 +0100 | ProfSimm | (~ProfSimm@87.227.196.109) |
| 2021-11-21 14:26:46 +0100 | <geekosaur> | and the problem with showing this is (.) has only one type fitting its "type schema" which is not *quite* the same as ((->) r), but Monad has many that fit; and it's not easy to see how the two relate without using some category theory |
| 2021-11-21 14:26:52 +0100 | mimmy | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:8ce9:9a4:40aa:9fe2) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 14:26:58 +0100 | deadmarshal | (~deadmarsh@95.38.116.117) |
| 2021-11-21 14:27:15 +0100 | <geekosaur> | Control.Category defines its own version of (.) which makes it a bit clearer |
| 2021-11-21 14:27:18 +0100 | <geekosaur> | hm |
| 2021-11-21 14:27:31 +0100 | mimmy | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:45d3:5172:e85f:c128) |
| 2021-11-21 14:27:45 +0100 | <geekosaur> | % :t (Control.Category..) |
| 2021-11-21 14:27:45 +0100 | <yahb> | geekosaur: forall {k} {cat :: k -> k -> *} {b :: k} {c :: k} {a :: k}. Category cat => cat b c -> cat a b -> cat a c |
| 2021-11-21 14:28:04 +0100 | <geekosaur> | clear as mud :( |
| 2021-11-21 14:28:14 +0100 | <hpc> | just ignore everything before "." |
| 2021-11-21 14:32:07 +0100 | [itchyjunk] | (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) |
| 2021-11-21 14:35:34 +0100 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@2001:16b8:6774:9a00:78e5:1df2:55f8:981b) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 14:40:52 +0100 | burnsidesLlama | (~burnsides@dhcp168-012.wadham.ox.ac.uk) |
| 2021-11-21 14:43:50 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@24.105.81.50) |
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| 2021-11-21 14:46:43 +0100 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!) |
| 2021-11-21 14:47:25 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2001:1a81:526f:1d00:2bb4:8855:a1a6:d69e) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 14:48:16 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2001:1a81:526f:1d00:d375:c485:c62f:a6f6) |
| 2021-11-21 14:52:14 +0100 | DNH | (~DNH@2a02:8108:1100:16d8:7892:4ebf:89a7:d96) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2021-11-21 14:58:25 +0100 | mikoto-chan | (~mikoto-ch@esm-84-240-99-143.netplaza.fi) |
| 2021-11-21 15:00:27 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) |
| 2021-11-21 15:06:59 +0100 | waleee | (~waleee@2001:9b0:216:8200:d457:9189:7843:1dbd) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 15:08:19 +0100 | mimmy_ | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:2c71:f3a7:2628:f681) |
| 2021-11-21 15:08:39 +0100 | waleee | (~waleee@h-82-196-111-63.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) |
| 2021-11-21 15:11:17 +0100 | mimmy | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:45d3:5172:e85f:c128) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 15:16:47 +0100 | dawdler | (~dawdler@user/dawdler) |
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| 2021-11-21 15:21:27 +0100 | Pickchea | (~private@user/pickchea) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2021-11-21 15:23:25 +0100 | <hololeap> | what would be an example of a profunctor in haskell that is not strong? |
| 2021-11-21 15:24:15 +0100 | mmhat | (~mmh@55d438c0.access.ecotel.net) |
| 2021-11-21 15:26:33 +0100 | jassob1 | (~jassob@h-98-128-167-112.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 15:30:25 +0100 | <xdej> | /9 |
| 2021-11-21 15:30:29 +0100 | <xdej> | sorry |
| 2021-11-21 15:30:37 +0100 | alzgh | (~alzgh@user/alzgh) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-11-21 15:30:58 +0100 | alzgh | (~alzgh@user/alzgh) |
| 2021-11-21 15:31:20 +0100 | NinjaTrappeur | (~ninja@user/ninjatrappeur) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3) |
| 2021-11-21 15:32:00 +0100 | <hololeap> | from the looks of it, Op is a Category, but not an Arrow, so it would be a profunctor that is not strong, right? |
| 2021-11-21 15:32:09 +0100 | NinjaTrappeur | (~ninja@user/ninjatrappeur) |
| 2021-11-21 15:33:00 +0100 | <hololeap> | although it's probably costrong |
| 2021-11-21 15:36:20 +0100 | mimmy_ | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:2c71:f3a7:2628:f681) |
| 2021-11-21 15:36:48 +0100 | pfurla | (~pfurla@2804:14d:5c81:4104:d41b:9326:c4d8:9f2a) |
| 2021-11-21 15:38:10 +0100 | <hololeap> | % unfirst (Op (f :: forall d. (b,d) -> (a,d))) = Op $ \b -> fst $ f (b,undefined) |
| 2021-11-21 15:38:10 +0100 | <yahb> | hololeap: ; <interactive>:12:14: error:; * Couldn't match expected type: b -> a; with actual type: forall d. (b1, d) -> (a1, d); * When checking that the pattern signature: forall d. (b1, d) -> (a1, d); fits the type of its context: b -> a; In the pattern: f :: forall d. (b, d) -> (a, d); In the pattern: Op (f :: forall d. (b, d) -> (a, d)); * Relevant bindings incl |
| 2021-11-21 15:39:20 +0100 | jassob1 | (~jassob@h-98-128-166-172.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) |
| 2021-11-21 15:41:09 +0100 | mimmy_ | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:2c71:f3a7:2628:f681) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 15:42:45 +0100 | son0p | (~ff@181.136.122.143) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-11-21 15:43:57 +0100 | <hololeap> | % unfirst (Op (f :: (b,d) -> (a,d))) = Op $ \b -> fst $ f (b, undefined) |
| 2021-11-21 15:43:57 +0100 | <yahb> | hololeap: |
| 2021-11-21 15:44:02 +0100 | <hololeap> | % :t unfirst |
| 2021-11-21 15:44:02 +0100 | <yahb> | hololeap: Op (a, d) (b, d) -> Op a b |
| 2021-11-21 15:44:07 +0100 | <hololeap> | so yeah, it's costrong |
| 2021-11-21 15:47:10 +0100 | <ProfSimm> | Hey anyone here know physics theoreticians who wanna brainstorm about things with me? |
| 2021-11-21 15:50:28 +0100 | yauhsien | (~yauhsien@118-167-40-224.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) |
| 2021-11-21 15:51:22 +0100 | deadmarshal | (~deadmarsh@95.38.116.117) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
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| 2021-11-21 15:51:44 +0100 | eggplantade | (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b4a8:9431:5c1:c0e0) |
| 2021-11-21 15:56:02 +0100 | eggplantade | (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b4a8:9431:5c1:c0e0) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 15:56:02 +0100 | yauhsien | (~yauhsien@118-167-40-224.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 15:56:34 +0100 | ThatLinuxGuy | (~sand49@2001:8003:8431:d200:220b:84b2:a334:cbad) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 2021-11-21 15:57:47 +0100 | justsomeguy | (~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3) |
| 2021-11-21 15:58:01 +0100 | raehik | (~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) |
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| 2021-11-21 16:05:49 +0100 | unit73e | (~emanuel@2001:818:e8dd:7c00:32b5:c2ff:fe6b:5291) |
| 2021-11-21 16:07:53 +0100 | _ht_ | (~quassel@82-169-194-8.biz.kpn.net) |
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| 2021-11-21 16:12:39 +0100 | max22- | (~maxime@2a01cb0883359800ebf1dbb598d360cc.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 2021-11-21 16:16:33 +0100 | lavaman | (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-11-21 16:25:16 +0100 | <Hecate> | :27 |
| 2021-11-21 16:25:18 +0100 | <Hecate> | eh |
| 2021-11-21 16:27:30 +0100 | burnsidesLlama | (~burnsides@dhcp168-012.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-11-21 16:27:56 +0100 | burnsidesLlama | (~burnsides@dhcp168-012.wadham.ox.ac.uk) |
| 2021-11-21 16:28:57 +0100 | renzhi | (~xp@2607:fa49:6500:b100::6e7f) |
| 2021-11-21 16:29:02 +0100 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@2001:16b8:6774:9a00:78e5:1df2:55f8:981b) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 16:29:48 +0100 | hololeap | (~hololeap@user/hololeap) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 2021-11-21 16:33:36 +0100 | <jiribenes> | hololeap: Tagged :: Type -> Type -> Type from `tagged` has a Profunctor instance but not a Strong instance in `profunctors` |
| 2021-11-21 16:34:00 +0100 | <jiribenes> | (as far as I can tell) |
| 2021-11-21 16:36:48 +0100 | Vajb | (~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a8-176.dhcp.inet.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 2021-11-21 17:27:48 +0100 | mimmy_ | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:100e:941d:330:91e9) |
| 2021-11-21 17:28:11 +0100 | zer0bitz | (~zer0bitz@dsl-hkibng31-54fabc-15.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
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| 2021-11-21 17:31:28 +0100 | <EvanR> | would you say that in foldr the f happens first, and in foldl the recursion happens first |
| 2021-11-21 17:31:42 +0100 | <EvanR> | and is this typical of right fold and left fold in general |
| 2021-11-21 17:33:23 +0100 | mimmy_ | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:100e:941d:330:91e9) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 17:35:52 +0100 | xff0x | (~xff0x@2001:1a81:526f:1d00:d375:c485:c62f:a6f6) |
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| 2021-11-21 17:40:40 +0100 | ubert | (~Thunderbi@p548c9fcb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2021-11-21 17:40:44 +0100 | <Lycurgus> | how is "recursion" different from "f"? |
| 2021-11-21 17:42:46 +0100 | mbuf | (~Shakthi@223.178.74.138) (Quit: Leaving) |
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| 2021-11-21 18:12:04 +0100 | Lord_of_Life_ | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) |
| 2021-11-21 18:12:45 +0100 | <dsal> | dante stopped working for me a while ago and I just finally got around to looking into the issue. It's trying to run some kind of pure nix shell to run a cabal repl or something that was just not going to happen. I told it to run `nix-shell -p stack --run 'stack ghci'` and suddenly everything works again. |
| 2021-11-21 18:13:11 +0100 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 18:13:24 +0100 | Lord_of_Life_ | Lord_of_Life |
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| 2021-11-21 18:25:53 +0100 | TimWolla | (~timwolla@2a01:4f8:150:6153:beef::6667) (Quit: Bye) |
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| 2021-11-21 18:30:46 +0100 | TimWolla | (~timwolla@2a01:4f8:150:6153:beef::6667) |
| 2021-11-21 18:32:01 +0100 | <Sqaure> | I wonder if theres commonly used i18n library for haskell. Id be fine with a key-value with some sort of replacement mechanism for parameterized strings (that allows a replacement mechanism)? |
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| 2021-11-21 18:37:01 +0100 | jakalx | (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client) |
| 2021-11-21 18:41:49 +0100 | pfurla | (~pfurla@2804:14d:5c81:4104:d09a:3c35:dab9:95ad) (Quit: gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2021-11-21 18:41:54 +0100 | fjmorazan | (~quassel@user/fjmorazan) (Quit: fjmorazan) |
| 2021-11-21 18:42:31 +0100 | fjmorazan | (~quassel@user/fjmorazan) |
| 2021-11-21 18:44:03 +0100 | <sm> | there's something in the shakespeare family of packages |
| 2021-11-21 18:44:11 +0100 | werneta | (~werneta@70-142-214-115.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 18:44:12 +0100 | <sm> | and an i18n section on hackage I believe |
| 2021-11-21 18:44:37 +0100 | myShoggoth | (~myShoggot@97-120-85-195.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 2021-11-21 18:45:04 +0100 | <sshine> | The i18n packages was unfortunately last released in 2016. |
| 2021-11-21 18:47:43 +0100 | <sshine> | Sqaure, there's a section on i18n in the Yesod book. https://www.yesodweb.com/book/internationalization -- but it seems like they didn't pick language-agnostic standards like gettext. |
| 2021-11-21 18:48:23 +0100 | <sm> | oh wow, people are really not using the https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/#cat:I18n category |
| 2021-11-21 18:48:49 +0100 | jakalx | (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) |
| 2021-11-21 18:48:50 +0100 | <Sqaure> | I checked out shakespear and i18. I felt the former had too many dependencies. The latter seemed a bit too specialized |
| 2021-11-21 18:49:21 +0100 | <Sqaure> | ...and had no built in replacement. |
| 2021-11-21 18:49:33 +0100 | malc | (~malc@2a00:1370:8117:7bb5:31d2:4ba8:5ed4:b0d0) |
| 2021-11-21 18:49:51 +0100 | malc | (~malc@2a00:1370:8117:7bb5:31d2:4ba8:5ed4:b0d0) (ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) |
| 2021-11-21 18:49:52 +0100 | <sm> | hgettext ? |
| 2021-11-21 18:49:53 +0100 | <sshine> | I guess the i18n package is a standard wrapper around gettext .po files. that's pretty neat, no? |
| 2021-11-21 18:50:26 +0100 | deadmarshal | (~deadmarsh@95.38.116.117) |
| 2021-11-21 18:50:41 +0100 | <Sqaure> | i guess i can work around it |
| 2021-11-21 18:51:58 +0100 | <hololeap> | it looks like pandoc rolled their own as well: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/blob/master/src/Text/Pandoc/Translations.hs |
| 2021-11-21 18:53:26 +0100 | <maerwald> | pretty basic |
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| 2021-11-21 19:41:03 +0100 | <EvanR> | is there a name for this pattern: your monad code is polymorphic in the monad but includes a subclass monad constraint to provide "API calls" |
| 2021-11-21 19:42:01 +0100 | <EvanR> | or this one: your code is in some custom monad, but is parameterized by an known monad m and there is a record of m actions in the context |
| 2021-11-21 19:42:12 +0100 | Lord_of_Life_ | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) |
| 2021-11-21 19:42:37 +0100 | <EvanR> | (I see these accomplish very similar things) |
| 2021-11-21 19:42:41 +0100 | Successus | (~Successus@gateway/tor-sasl/successus) () |
| 2021-11-21 19:43:10 +0100 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 19:43:31 +0100 | <EvanR> | I've only ever seen it referred to by these long winded explanations xD |
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| 2021-11-21 19:45:00 +0100 | Lord_of_Life_ | Lord_of_Life |
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| 2021-11-21 19:55:10 +0100 | edwardk | (sid47016@haskell/developer/edwardk) |
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| 2021-11-21 19:55:23 +0100 | myShoggoth | (~myShoggot@97-120-85-195.ptld.qwest.net) |
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| 2021-11-21 19:55:47 +0100 | ProofTechnique | (sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com) |
| 2021-11-21 19:56:18 +0100 | <sshine> | EvanR, if I understand correctly, what you're describing are similar to what Matt Parsons calls "capabilities" here: https://www.parsonsmatt.org/2018/03/22/three_layer_haskell_cake.html -- or? |
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| 2021-11-21 19:59:12 +0100 | parseval | (sid239098@id-239098.helmsley.irccloud.com) |
| 2021-11-21 19:59:18 +0100 | <sshine> | EvanR, or rather, that's one way to parameterise your monad over certain things... https://github.com/parsonsmatt/cardano-sl/blob/10e55bde9a5c0d9d28bca25950a8811407c5fc8c/docs/monad… -- but I've seen other, simpler approaches related to free effect systems where you have simpler Has* classes. |
| 2021-11-21 19:59:42 +0100 | <sshine> | EvanR, I was gonna call that "has-style" type classes. but I can't find a reference to anyone calling them that. I'm sure I didn't come up with it, though. |
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| 2021-11-21 20:05:08 +0100 | nrr__ | (sid20938@id-20938.lymington.irccloud.com) |
| 2021-11-21 20:05:25 +0100 | <EvanR> | heh.... nice post. I'm not sure what capability refers to there. At the end they give up and call the three layers imperative, object oriented, and functional xD |
| 2021-11-21 20:05:30 +0100 | joel135 | (sid136450@id-136450.hampstead.irccloud.com) |
| 2021-11-21 20:05:36 +0100 | sclv | (sid39734@haskell/developer/sclv) |
| 2021-11-21 20:05:39 +0100 | pjlsergeant | (sid143467@id-143467.hampstead.irccloud.com) |
| 2021-11-21 20:05:44 +0100 | <EvanR> | but they are covering what I'm talking about basically |
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| 2021-11-21 20:09:19 +0100 | <[exa]> | EvanR: re first one if you say "mtl-like HasMonads" everyone will know :] the second is much closer to actual effect systems and interpreters, perhaps some naming from the effect packages would fit |
| 2021-11-21 20:09:24 +0100 | Adeon_ | (sid418992@id-418992.lymington.irccloud.com) |
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| 2021-11-21 20:09:40 +0100 | burnsidesLlama | (~burnsides@dhcp168-012.wadham.ox.ac.uk) |
| 2021-11-21 20:09:54 +0100 | Boarders_ | (sid425905@id-425905.lymington.irccloud.com) |
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| 2021-11-21 20:09:56 +0100 | taktoa[c] | (sid282096@id-282096.tinside.irccloud.com) |
| 2021-11-21 20:09:59 +0100 | Adeon_ | Adeon |
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| 2021-11-21 20:10:43 +0100 | <EvanR> | mtl-like is like class Monad m => MonadCoolThing m where ? |
| 2021-11-21 20:10:55 +0100 | shdw | (~shdw@23-233-101-24.cpe.pppoe.ca) |
| 2021-11-21 20:11:07 +0100 | burnside_ | (~burnsides@dhcp168-012.wadham.ox.ac.uk) |
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| 2021-11-21 20:13:18 +0100 | <[exa]> | yes, MonadState MonadReader MonadWhatever |
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| 2021-11-21 20:13:53 +0100 | Pent | (sid313808@id-313808.lymington.irccloud.com) |
| 2021-11-21 20:14:10 +0100 | <EvanR> | is that naming scheme really common or is there something less Monady xD |
| 2021-11-21 20:14:27 +0100 | jackdk | (sid373013@cssa/jackdk) |
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| 2021-11-21 20:15:11 +0100 | whatsupdoc | (uid509081@id-509081.hampstead.irccloud.com) |
| 2021-11-21 20:15:20 +0100 | <[exa]> | not sure, AFAIK everyone who goes with typeclasses just goes with that |
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| 2021-11-21 20:19:04 +0100 | nattiestnate | (~nate@2001:448a:20a0:4134:25e:715f:d637:5263) |
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| 2021-11-21 20:23:27 +0100 | deadmarshal | (~deadmarsh@95.38.116.117) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 20:26:02 +0100 | euouae | (~euouae@user/euouae) |
| 2021-11-21 20:26:11 +0100 | <sshine> | EvanR, yeah so I think you can discuss granularity here. "has-style" could also be finer, e.g. HasLog, HasDatabase. and the particular example from cardano-sl was one degree more parameterised, e.g. Has LoggingParams. but here's a similar approach with GADTs: https://github.com/hasura/eff#eff-in-action |
| 2021-11-21 20:28:41 +0100 | <EvanR> | oh, here Effect is a datakind? |
| 2021-11-21 20:29:20 +0100 | <EvanR> | hmm no |
| 2021-11-21 20:29:55 +0100 | <EvanR> | the m out of nowhere in Filesystem is weird |
| 2021-11-21 20:31:17 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) |
| 2021-11-21 20:32:12 +0100 | <sshine> | hmm, yeah. |
| 2021-11-21 20:32:42 +0100 | <sshine> | I'm not sure about that, either. |
| 2021-11-21 20:33:29 +0100 | <[exa]> | freer? (there the "logging" of actions is the default though) |
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| 2021-11-21 21:09:44 +0100 | machinedgod | (~machinedg@135-23-192-217.cpe.pppoe.ca) |
| 2021-11-21 21:14:16 +0100 | <nf> | guess i'll cross-post from #haskell-lens: is there some way to combine the indices of two indexed folds? for example, i'd want something like ["ab","cd"] ^@.. ifolded . ifolded to return [((0, 0), 'a'), ((0, 1), 'b'), ((1, 0), 'c'), ((1, 1), 'd')] |
| 2021-11-21 21:16:24 +0100 | unit73e | (~emanuel@2001:818:e8dd:7c00:32b5:c2ff:fe6b:5291) |
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| 2021-11-21 21:26:03 +0100 | kayvank | (~user@52-119-115-185.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) |
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| 2021-11-21 21:31:48 +0100 | <[exa]> | nf: icompose (,) ? |
| 2021-11-21 21:32:23 +0100 | <[exa]> | (wild guess) |
| 2021-11-21 21:33:58 +0100 | <nf> | ah, that looks like what i want |
| 2021-11-21 21:34:10 +0100 | <nf> | or <.> |
| 2021-11-21 21:34:46 +0100 | kayvank | (~user@52-119-115-185.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) |
| 2021-11-21 21:34:50 +0100 | <nf> | yep, ifolded <.> ifolded |
| 2021-11-21 21:34:55 +0100 | <nf> | thanks [exa] ! |
| 2021-11-21 21:35:39 +0100 | <[exa]> | oh wow, wild guess worked |
| 2021-11-21 21:35:42 +0100 | <[exa]> | \o/ |
| 2021-11-21 21:38:10 +0100 | burnside_ | (~burnsides@dhcp168-012.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-11-21 21:38:12 +0100 | <nf> | weirdly enough, folded <.> folded seems to work too |
| 2021-11-21 21:38:41 +0100 | cjb | (~cjb@user/cjb) |
| 2021-11-21 21:39:59 +0100 | [exa] | stumped |
| 2021-11-21 21:40:00 +0100 | <nf> | seems like folded indexes any foldable generically, whereas ifolded has a separate typeclass |
| 2021-11-21 21:41:49 +0100 | <[exa]> | yeah possibly with better index types |
| 2021-11-21 21:42:39 +0100 | <[exa]> | ooh yeah, `FoldableWithIndex k (Map k)` |
| 2021-11-21 21:43:25 +0100 | y04n45402 | (~y04nn@nayon.fr) |
| 2021-11-21 21:43:33 +0100 | <[exa]> | wuw, some useful stuff there, `FoldableWithIndex [Int] Tree` |
| 2021-11-21 21:44:17 +0100 | mimmy_ | (~mimmy@cpef81d0f857c83-cmf81d0f857c80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 2021-11-21 21:44:24 +0100 | <nf> | nice |
| 2021-11-21 21:45:41 +0100 | <nf> | it gets weirder: TraversableWithIndex i f => TraversableWithIndex [i] (Free f) |
| 2021-11-21 21:45:54 +0100 | y04nn | (~y04nn@92.223.89.196) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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| 2021-11-21 21:47:05 +0100 | quintasan | (~quassel@quintasan.pl) |
| 2021-11-21 21:47:22 +0100 | <[exa]> | Free monads are basically trees with some piping around, so yeah, good :] |
| 2021-11-21 21:47:56 +0100 | <[exa]> | the one for Compose is nice too |
| 2021-11-21 21:48:23 +0100 | <[exa]> | I need some indexed bikeshedding project to play with all this stuff |
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| 2021-11-21 22:21:08 +0100 | <euouae> | I'm looking into the Alloy analyzer, https://alloytools.org/ does Haskell have any tools like this? |
| 2021-11-21 22:22:03 +0100 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) |
| 2021-11-21 22:22:13 +0100 | jinsun | (~quassel@user/jinsun) |
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| 2021-11-21 22:22:41 +0100 | <dsal> | euouae: That's kind of a different class of thing, but I guess you could write such a thing in Haskell. I use TLA+ some which is written in Java, so if it can be done there, it can be done anywhere. |
| 2021-11-21 22:23:59 +0100 | trcc | (~trcc@2-104-60-169-cable.dk.customer.tdc.net) |
| 2021-11-21 22:24:36 +0100 | <euouae> | what do you use TLA+ for? |
| 2021-11-21 22:25:02 +0100 | whatsupdoc | (uid509081@id-509081.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2021-11-21 22:25:11 +0100 | <dsal> | Describing whether a concept is even possible given known primitives. |
| 2021-11-21 22:25:43 +0100 | raehik | (~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2021-11-21 22:27:15 +0100 | <dsal> | Place I'm working has this thing written in some hacky node stuff with MongoDB. I modeled it in TLA+ to prove that it's completely impossible to guarantee it can any of the things they'd expect it to do (except for special cases where everything goes perfect). |
| 2021-11-21 22:27:35 +0100 | <euouae> | got'em |
| 2021-11-21 22:28:21 +0100 | <euouae> | I am starting with Alloy to test a design of a backend thing I want to write |
| 2021-11-21 22:28:32 +0100 | <euouae> | I don't know if this will be a waste of time or not but I'm giving it a shot |
| 2021-11-21 22:28:37 +0100 | <dsal> | I started by modeling my idea, which was really boring because my idea was fairly simple and just kind of worked. Makes that type of tool pretty confusing because like, yeah, the thing I thought works the way I think it might. |
| 2021-11-21 22:30:34 +0100 | pfurla | (~pfurla@2804:14d:5c81:4104:d41b:9326:c4d8:9f2a) |
| 2021-11-21 22:32:08 +0100 | abhixec_ | (~abhixec@c-67-169-139-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2021-11-21 22:33:00 +0100 | <trcc> | I am trying to write a simple CLI using optparse-applicative. The first argument has to be a string, without any option. I.e. ./program hello -arg1 -arg2 -arg3 where hello is the first argument and a string |
| 2021-11-21 22:33:48 +0100 | <dsal> | trcc: you can build named subcommand parsers like that. |
| 2021-11-21 22:34:19 +0100 | <trcc> | dsal: subcommand. That was the keyword I was after. Thank you, I will try and find it. |
| 2021-11-21 22:34:20 +0100 | zincy_ | (~zincy@2a00:23c8:970c:4801:78f3:43f3:fd48:5ac3) |
| 2021-11-21 22:34:38 +0100 | <dsal> | Yeah. optparse-applicative does a lot of stuff. |
| 2021-11-21 22:34:40 +0100 | deadmarshal | (~deadmarsh@95.38.116.117) |
| 2021-11-21 22:35:10 +0100 | <dsal> | trcc, e.g.: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/5MOYg4gI/sink.txt |
| 2021-11-21 22:36:36 +0100 | <trcc> | dsal: ye makes sense. In this case I want to create a file. I.e. ./program hello creates a file called hello. ./program hello_world creates a file called hello_world etc |
| 2021-11-21 22:36:54 +0100 | <trcc> | so it is not really fixed like in that exampe |
| 2021-11-21 22:37:06 +0100 | <dsal> | Ah, then you probably don't want to do that. heh |
| 2021-11-21 22:37:49 +0100 | <dsal> | I do have a command to interact with s3 that works a bit like cp: |
| 2021-11-21 22:37:52 +0100 | <euouae> | trcc you can leave the argumetns unparsed, pop one out and then parse them |
| 2021-11-21 22:37:53 +0100 | <dsal> | dsmac:tesla dustin$ s3up create *.md blah |
| 2021-11-21 22:37:53 +0100 | <dsal> | E: Invalid paths for create: final parameter must be an object ending in / |
| 2021-11-21 22:38:27 +0100 | <dsal> | (i.e., if there are two arguments, the second can be anything, but if there are more than two, the last has to end in /) |
| 2021-11-21 22:38:47 +0100 | <trcc> | euouae: can you elaborte? |
| 2021-11-21 22:39:06 +0100 | deadmarshal | (~deadmarsh@95.38.116.117) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 22:39:16 +0100 | <trcc> | dsal: something like that. I need the first argument to be a string and then whatever optional arguments are next |
| 2021-11-21 22:40:41 +0100 | myShoggoth | (~myShoggot@97-120-85-195.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 2021-11-21 22:44:03 +0100 | mimmy_ | (~mimmy@cpef81d0f857c83-cmf81d0f857c80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 2021-11-21 22:45:24 +0100 | <euouae> | trcc https://blog.ocharles.org.uk/posts/2012-12-17-24-days-of-hackage-optparse-applicative.html |
| 2021-11-21 22:45:36 +0100 | <trcc> | thanks |
| 2021-11-21 22:45:59 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | Hi, i wanted to mod some number with %. i wrote a function and from what haskell told me realized that my signature should be (Integral a) => a -> String |
| 2021-11-21 22:46:22 +0100 | <trcc> | ye exactly euouae. thanks |
| 2021-11-21 22:46:39 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | Now i wanted to `iterate` this function on numbers 1 through 10. but `iterate f [1 .. 10]` doesn't work because i think these are Num and not Integrals |
| 2021-11-21 22:46:42 +0100 | <trcc> | actually just found the argument parser here hehe https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optparse-applicative-0.16.1.0#builders |
| 2021-11-21 22:47:02 +0100 | myShoggoth | (~myShoggot@97-120-85-195.ptld.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 22:48:25 +0100 | <euouae> | [itchyjunk], what do you mean by "iterate"? |
| 2021-11-21 22:48:38 +0100 | Feuermagier | (~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) |
| 2021-11-21 22:48:45 +0100 | pavonia | (~user@user/siracusa) |
| 2021-11-21 22:48:48 +0100 | <euouae> | Because the iterate function will apply f multiple times, and the signature doesn't match |
| 2021-11-21 22:48:53 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | i wanted to repeatedly apply function f to natural numbers between 1 and n. google recommended iterate :s maybe i misread |
| 2021-11-21 22:48:54 +0100 | mimmy_ | (~mimmy@cpef81d0f857c83-cmf81d0f857c80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 22:48:57 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | oh |
| 2021-11-21 22:48:59 +0100 | <geekosaur> | this whole thing sounds confused. in particular % is not mod |
| 2021-11-21 22:49:31 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | oops, right % is not mod, `mod` is mod. i've fixed that part already, sorry |
| 2021-11-21 22:49:40 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | let me post the code as well |
| 2021-11-21 22:49:47 +0100 | <euouae> | > take 10 $ iterate (*2) 1 |
| 2021-11-21 22:49:48 +0100 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512] |
| 2021-11-21 22:50:09 +0100 | <geekosaur> | > take 10 $ iterate (*2) 1.0 |
| 2021-11-21 22:50:11 +0100 | <lambdabot> | [1.0,2.0,4.0,8.0,16.0,32.0,64.0,128.0,256.0,512.0] |
| 2021-11-21 22:50:12 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | https://bpa.st/QQSQ |
| 2021-11-21 22:50:22 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | this is my helper function that i wanted to apply to a list of natural numbers |
| 2021-11-21 22:51:04 +0100 | <geekosaur> | hm. is there a point to making it any Integral instead of just specializing to Int or Integer? |
| 2021-11-21 22:51:27 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | i loaded the function without a signature and checked with :t |
| 2021-11-21 22:51:37 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | i originally had (Num a) which gave me errors |
| 2021-11-21 22:51:50 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | :t was using Integral so i used that |
| 2021-11-21 22:51:50 +0100 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 2021-11-21 22:51:50 +0100 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: |
| 2021-11-21 22:51:50 +0100 | <lambdabot> | was :: t0 -> (a0 -> Integer) -> t1 -> Expr -> t2 -> t3 -> t |
| 2021-11-21 22:51:59 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | oops sorry |
| 2021-11-21 22:52:00 +0100 | <geekosaur> | usually you don't need or want the fully generalized type, to be honest |
| 2021-11-21 22:52:09 +0100 | <geekosaur> | it just complicates things later |
| 2021-11-21 22:53:02 +0100 | <geekosaur> | but, in any case, you misunderstand the problem. specifically, this is valid: |
| 2021-11-21 22:53:11 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | changing it to Int and Integer both generate error |
| 2021-11-21 22:53:32 +0100 | shdw | (~shdw@23-233-101-24.cpe.pppoe.ca) |
| 2021-11-21 22:53:51 +0100 | <geekosaur> | :t [1 .. 10] :: Integral a => [a] |
| 2021-11-21 22:53:52 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Integral a => [a] |
| 2021-11-21 22:54:06 +0100 | <geekosaur> | maybe you should show the actual code and actual error |
| 2021-11-21 22:54:09 +0100 | <geekosaur> | @where paste |
| 2021-11-21 22:54:09 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 2021-11-21 22:54:18 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | the code i posted is the actual error |
| 2021-11-21 22:54:22 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | code* |
| 2021-11-21 22:55:02 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/7hmCUEA6 |
| 2021-11-21 22:55:16 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | Int, Integer and Integral in signature respectively |
| 2021-11-21 22:55:31 +0100 | <geekosaur> | ok, that one is because you misunderstand the difference between a type and a constraint |
| 2021-11-21 22:55:47 +0100 | <geekosaur> | Int and Integer are types. Integral and Num are constraints |
| 2021-11-21 22:56:08 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | oh i thought you contained it to a type |
| 2021-11-21 22:56:27 +0100 | <geekosaur> | (Integral a => a) means "any type a which has an Integral instance" |
| 2021-11-21 22:56:56 +0100 | <geekosaur> | if you wanted to use Int you'd just say Int instead of (Integral a) => … a … |
| 2021-11-21 22:57:47 +0100 | <euouae> | Integral can be thought of as an interface. It's the things that you can demand of a type |
| 2021-11-21 22:58:30 +0100 | <geekosaur> | ^ |
| 2021-11-21 22:59:44 +0100 | trcc | (~trcc@2-104-60-169-cable.dk.customer.tdc.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-11-21 22:59:49 +0100 | <EvanR> | the implementation for that type is sitting in some pile somewhere, and putting the constraint lets you grab the right one without explicitly find it and passing it around |
| 2021-11-21 23:00:03 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | hmmm |
| 2021-11-21 23:00:16 +0100 | trcc | (~trcc@2-104-60-169-cable.dk.customer.tdc.net) |
| 2021-11-21 23:00:31 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | So what does the Integral interface give me that Num interface doesn't? Because seems to not work with Num interface, right? |
| 2021-11-21 23:00:36 +0100 | <EvanR> | division |
| 2021-11-21 23:00:40 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | ahhh |
| 2021-11-21 23:00:43 +0100 | <geekosaur> | :t mod |
| 2021-11-21 23:00:44 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Integral a => a -> a -> a |
| 2021-11-21 23:00:53 +0100 | <geekosaur> | :t divMod |
| 2021-11-21 23:00:54 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Integral a => a -> a -> (a, a) |
| 2021-11-21 23:01:30 +0100 | <EvanR> | > :t 0 `div` 0 |
| 2021-11-21 23:01:32 +0100 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ |
| 2021-11-21 23:01:36 +0100 | <EvanR> | :t 0 `div` 0 |
| 2021-11-21 23:01:37 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Integral a => a |
| 2021-11-21 23:01:38 +0100 | <geekosaur> | divMod is actually the more fundamental one on most CPUs including x86; you get division and remainder at the same time from a single machine opcode |
| 2021-11-21 23:01:55 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) |
| 2021-11-21 23:02:03 +0100 | <EvanR> | is divMod actually implemented that way? sounds too good to be true xD |
| 2021-11-21 23:02:06 +0100 | <geekosaur> | so div and mod do divMod at machien level and throw halfd of it away |
| 2021-11-21 23:02:11 +0100 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 2021-11-21 23:02:27 +0100 | <geekosaur> | there is no specific "div" or "mod" machine op iirc |
| 2021-11-21 23:02:32 +0100 | <geekosaur> | just a div+mod op |
| 2021-11-21 23:02:48 +0100 | <geekosaur> | which puts the div part in one register and the mod in another |
| 2021-11-21 23:02:48 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | oh interesting |
| 2021-11-21 23:02:53 +0100 | <EvanR> | how about multiply with the excess |
| 2021-11-21 23:03:15 +0100 | jpds | (~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 23:03:44 +0100 | jpds | (~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds) |
| 2021-11-21 23:04:31 +0100 | <EvanR> | that gets throw away too I think |
| 2021-11-21 23:04:39 +0100 | trcc | (~trcc@2-104-60-169-cable.dk.customer.tdc.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 23:04:44 +0100 | <dsal> | Yay, I finally used Finite for the first time in a real program. |
| 2021-11-21 23:04:52 +0100 | <geekosaur> | anyway the machine op requires types that are Integral, so div, mod, and divMod have that constraint |
| 2021-11-21 23:05:08 +0100 | <EvanR> | congratz, you're now a finitist |
| 2021-11-21 23:05:12 +0100 | <geekosaur> | the Num constraint gives you (+), (-), and (*) but no division |
| 2021-11-21 23:05:28 +0100 | <geekosaur> | Integral gives you divMod and friends; Fractional gives you (/) which is real division |
| 2021-11-21 23:06:50 +0100 | mimmy_ | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:818b:d7ec:141a:89c5) |
| 2021-11-21 23:07:14 +0100 | <geekosaur> | ("real" in the sense of (a simulation of) mathematical "real numbers" as distinct from mathematical integers) |
| 2021-11-21 23:08:00 +0100 | <EvanR> | > (5 :+ 0) / (0 :+ 1) |
| 2021-11-21 23:08:02 +0100 | <lambdabot> | 0.0 :+ (-5.0) |
| 2021-11-21 23:08:26 +0100 | <EvanR> | unreal division |
| 2021-11-21 23:08:37 +0100 | <geekosaur> | I was going to leave the complex plane out of it, this is already confusing enough :) |
| 2021-11-21 23:09:23 +0100 | jmorris | (uid433911@id-433911.hampstead.irccloud.com) |
| 2021-11-21 23:09:46 +0100 | <geekosaur> | anyway haskell tends to get somewhat precise about these kinds of things (although not precise enough for some; revisions of the Num hierarchy are requested somewhat regularly and there are some implementations on Hackage) |
| 2021-11-21 23:10:59 +0100 | <geekosaur> | … so enough with that diversion. you said even with the Integral constraint you were getting an error? |
| 2021-11-21 23:11:26 +0100 | <geekosaur> | the only thing I see in your paste is a tabs warning |
| 2021-11-21 23:11:35 +0100 | mimmy_ | (~mimmy@2607:fea8:6e0:7f90:818b:d7ec:141a:89c5) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 23:11:59 +0100 | <euouae> | You also mentioned 'iterate' and I think you mean 'map' |
| 2021-11-21 23:12:00 +0100 | <geekosaur> | much like python, haskell is indentation sensitive and editors don't always agree with each other or the compiler about what a tab means, so it's best to avoid them |
| 2021-11-21 23:12:04 +0100 | <geekosaur> | yeh |
| 2021-11-21 23:12:20 +0100 | pfurla | (~pfurla@2804:14d:5c81:4104:d41b:9326:c4d8:9f2a) (Quit: gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2021-11-21 23:12:36 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | so Num is like natural numbers |
| 2021-11-21 23:12:46 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | with no division |
| 2021-11-21 23:12:57 +0100 | <geekosaur> | it's the set of operations that are meaningful on any kind of number |
| 2021-11-21 23:13:01 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | so Integral must be like.. something else. Z ring? |
| 2021-11-21 23:13:20 +0100 | <geekosaur> | remember, these are essentially interfaces |
| 2021-11-21 23:13:47 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | right |
| 2021-11-21 23:13:56 +0100 | <geekosaur> | so Num is the set of operations you can define on any kind of number (integers, reals, complex, quaternion, you name it) |
| 2021-11-21 23:14:28 +0100 | <geekosaur> | Integral is the operations you can define on specifically integer-like numbers, namely integer division / modulus |
| 2021-11-21 23:14:55 +0100 | <geekosaur> | Fractional is (floating point) division and related operations |
| 2021-11-21 23:15:10 +0100 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@2001:16b8:6774:9a00:69ab:ea7f:c2d0:49e0) |
| 2021-11-21 23:15:25 +0100 | <geekosaur> | Floating is trigonometric operations and other things that can result in transcendental numbers |
| 2021-11-21 23:15:49 +0100 | eggplantade | (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b4a8:9431:5c1:c0e0) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-11-21 23:16:17 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | hmm i've never come across Floating type data structure i think |
| 2021-11-21 23:16:25 +0100 | <geekosaur> | :t sin |
| 2021-11-21 23:16:26 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Floating a => a -> a |
| 2021-11-21 23:16:26 +0100 | Adeon | (sid418992@id-418992.lymington.irccloud.com) () |
| 2021-11-21 23:16:38 +0100 | <geekosaur> | :t sqrt |
| 2021-11-21 23:16:39 +0100 | <lambdabot> | Floating a => a -> a |
| 2021-11-21 23:17:18 +0100 | Adeon | (sid418992@id-418992.lymington.irccloud.com) |
| 2021-11-21 23:17:20 +0100 | <geekosaur> | usually this distinction doesn't mean much because you're almost always using Double or occasionally Complex Double, which is both Fractional and Floating |
| 2021-11-21 23:17:35 +0100 | shdw | (~shdw@23-233-101-24.cpe.pppoe.ca) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2021-11-21 23:19:10 +0100 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
| 2021-11-21 23:19:11 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | Ah, things can implement multiple interfaces |
| 2021-11-21 23:19:18 +0100 | <geekosaur> | yep |
| 2021-11-21 23:19:27 +0100 | <geekosaur> | % :info Int |
| 2021-11-21 23:19:28 +0100 | <yahb> | geekosaur: type Int :: *; data Int = I# Int#; -- Defined in `GHC.Types'; instance Eq Int -- Defined in `GHC.Classes'; instance Ord Int -- Defined in `GHC.Classes'; instance Enum Int -- Defined in `GHC.Enum'; instance Num Int -- Defined in `GHC.Num'; instance Real Int -- Defined in `GHC.Real'; instance Show Int -- Defined in `GHC.Show'; instance [safe] PrintfArg Int -- Defined in `Text.Printf'; instance Data Int -- |
| 2021-11-21 23:19:48 +0100 | <geekosaur> | you can ask ghci for the full set |
| 2021-11-21 23:20:32 +0100 | acidjnk | (~acidjnk@2001:16b8:6774:9a00:69ab:ea7f:c2d0:49e0) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 23:20:54 +0100 | rtsn | (~nstr@c-c7fe225c.07-59-7570703.bbcust.telenor.se) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 23:21:03 +0100 | <geekosaur> | so as to your earlier comment about the Z ring, the standard Haskell numeric typeclasses don't really capture the notion of rings. there are alternative typeclasses that do |
| 2021-11-21 23:21:27 +0100 | <EvanR> | Num isn't the same as a ring just because haskell likes to take laws seriously, which would make Double for instance not Nummable |
| 2021-11-21 23:21:32 +0100 | <geekosaur> | although those have their own problems because Int, for example, doesn't fit them well because it's secretly a quotient type |
| 2021-11-21 23:21:32 +0100 | rtsn | (~nstr@c-c7fe225c.07-59-7570703.bbcust.telenor.se) |
| 2021-11-21 23:22:00 +0100 | <geekosaur> | which you can't truly capture within Haskell |
| 2021-11-21 23:22:24 +0100 | <EvanR> | Int is a cromulent ring though isn't it |
| 2021-11-21 23:22:34 +0100 | zebrag | (~chris@user/zebrag) |
| 2021-11-21 23:22:55 +0100 | <geekosaur> | Int is Z/2^64, which is a perfecly fine ring but not one you can describe in Haskell |
| 2021-11-21 23:23:15 +0100 | <EvanR> | that's Word |
| 2021-11-21 23:23:19 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | hmm |
| 2021-11-21 23:23:39 +0100 | <geekosaur> | mm, yes, sorry |
| 2021-11-21 23:24:07 +0100 | <EvanR> | if it obeys laws... to hell with describing it in haskell XD |
| 2021-11-21 23:25:47 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | I thought math people liked haskell because of math axioms being carried over :D |
| 2021-11-21 23:25:49 +0100 | ees | (~user@pool-108-18-30-46.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2021-11-21 23:26:00 +0100 | <EvanR> | you can use other types that obey your laws if you want |
| 2021-11-21 23:26:01 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | at least, proof assistance seems to be popularly written in FP |
| 2021-11-21 23:26:17 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | ah true, i guess the laws don't generally matter |
| 2021-11-21 23:26:19 +0100 | hololeap_ | (~hololeap@user/hololeap) |
| 2021-11-21 23:26:35 +0100 | <EvanR> | haskell doesn't check your laws, unfortunately |
| 2021-11-21 23:26:39 +0100 | hololeap | (~hololeap@user/hololeap) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 23:27:03 +0100 | <EvanR> | though it may rely on them sometimes |
| 2021-11-21 23:27:15 +0100 | <EvanR> | Functor laws, Monad laws |
| 2021-11-21 23:27:22 +0100 | dolio | (~dolio@130.44.130.54) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) |
| 2021-11-21 23:30:10 +0100 | <euouae> | I like Haskell because I can very quickly dish out programs that do what I want :P |
| 2021-11-21 23:30:14 +0100 | ees | (~user@pool-108-18-30-46.washdc.fios.verizon.net) () |
| 2021-11-21 23:31:37 +0100 | wootehfoot | (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2021-11-21 23:32:31 +0100 | dolio | (~dolio@130.44.130.54) |
| 2021-11-21 23:32:40 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | People using Py say the same :D |
| 2021-11-21 23:32:47 +0100 | <[itchyjunk]> | I wonder if people who use asm say the same also |
| 2021-11-21 23:33:53 +0100 | <EvanR> | yeah, menuetOS (OS by/for asm programmers) |
| 2021-11-21 23:36:02 +0100 | merijn | (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 23:38:30 +0100 | Codaraxis__ | (~Codaraxis@user/codaraxis) |
| 2021-11-21 23:42:07 +0100 | eggplantade | (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b4a8:9431:5c1:c0e0) |
| 2021-11-21 23:42:23 +0100 | Codaraxis_ | (~Codaraxis@user/codaraxis) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2021-11-21 23:46:16 +0100 | jakalx | (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client) |
| 2021-11-21 23:49:49 +0100 | ees | (~user@pool-108-18-30-46.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2021-11-21 23:58:27 +0100 | myShoggoth | (~myShoggot@97-120-85-195.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 2021-11-21 23:59:06 +0100 | econo | (uid147250@user/econo) |