IRCBrowse

2021/10/07

2021-10-07 00:02:08 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-10-07 00:02:13 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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2021-10-07 00:15:59 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250)
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2021-10-07 00:19:14 +0200tomboy64(~tomboy64@user/tomboy64)
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2021-10-07 00:20:54 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2021-10-07 00:22:18 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d192-24-122-179.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-10-07 00:25:10 +0200bitmapper(uid464869@id-464869.lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 00:25:39 +0200 <Axman6> dminuoso: what's the type of summing there?
2021-10-07 00:26:21 +0200 <Axman6> dminuoso: ... also keen to hear more about the SDN thing!
2021-10-07 00:26:28 +0200DNH(~DNH@2a02:8108:1100:16d8:a11a:d19d:8c20:4068) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-10-07 00:27:11 +0200emf(~emf@2620:10d:c090:400::5:9760) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 00:29:23 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-10-07 00:29:30 +0200spider(~spider@vps-951ce37a.vps.ovh.ca)
2021-10-07 00:31:21 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2021-10-07 00:36:55 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250)
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2021-10-07 00:55:31 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 00:58:01 +0200CiaoSen(~Jura@p200300c9571e34002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 01:01:26 +0200emf(~emf@2620:10d:c090:400::5:9760)
2021-10-07 01:02:11 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250)
2021-10-07 01:02:40 +0200Cajun(~Cajun@user/cajun)
2021-10-07 01:03:06 +0200econo(uid147250@user/econo)
2021-10-07 01:03:39 +0200lbseale(~lbseale@user/ep1ctetus)
2021-10-07 01:06:22 +0200jumper149(~jumper149@80.240.31.34) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2.1)
2021-10-07 01:06:39 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:5322:8500:eff4:1133:1236:ed4a) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 01:07:21 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:5322:8500:3dbc:62b9:b7d:93a4)
2021-10-07 01:08:15 +0200 <lbseale> Does anyone have a recommendation for a library for deriving Arbitrary for a record type? All I have found is this: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/derive
2021-10-07 01:09:07 +0200 <Axman6> Can't it be done for any Generic?
2021-10-07 01:09:10 +0200 <Morrow> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/generic-arbitrary ?
2021-10-07 01:09:52 +0200 <Axman6> ah - "There is no generic arbitrary implementation included because we don't know how to make a high-quality one. If you want one, consider using the testing-feat or generic-random packages."
2021-10-07 01:10:04 +0200 <Axman6> from the docs for Arbitrary
2021-10-07 01:11:19 +0200 <byorgey> sadly, testing-feat seems unmaintained and doesn't build with latest GHCs
2021-10-07 01:11:23 +0200 <byorgey> you can also try https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dragen
2021-10-07 01:12:47 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 01:12:52 +0200 <lbseale> These are all good, thanks
2021-10-07 01:12:59 +0200 <dmj`> I think people usually avoid Generic Arbitrary because they don't implement the shrinking properly for lists and other recursive data types. You need to shrink at least logarithmically to keep your program from hanging during generation.
2021-10-07 01:14:29 +0200 <lbseale> maybe I should back up and ask a broader question: Our program takes a huge record with many fields of input, we were hoping to just generate this randomly and see if it works, is this a good idea?
2021-10-07 01:17:03 +0200 <dmj`> lbseale: It depends, is your program expected to work for all random combinations of input? If not, you can get bespoke with how you generate the data, and only generate random cases that are expected.
2021-10-07 01:17:04 +0200 <geekosaur> huge record? sounds like you would either have a very slow thorough test or a fast inadequate one
2021-10-07 01:17:28 +0200 <geekosaur> but that depends on how random the randomness has to be
2021-10-07 01:18:47 +0200 <lbseale> ok these are good questions, it's not expected to work for all random combinations of input
2021-10-07 01:19:12 +0200 <lbseale> it might be good to make sure that it doesn't do something unexpected if it got a completely random input, but that's not my greatest concern
2021-10-07 01:19:42 +0200 <lbseale> so we should focus on writing our own `arbitrary` that generates random but reasonable input
2021-10-07 01:20:13 +0200 <lbseale> geekosaur: you mean slow because it would take a long time to generate truly random data for every field of input?
2021-10-07 01:20:31 +0200 <geekosaur> to test every possible combination across all fields
2021-10-07 01:20:42 +0200 <geekosaur> even with shrinking
2021-10-07 01:20:59 +0200 <lbseale> yeah, doing that is unreasonable
2021-10-07 01:27:27 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250)
2021-10-07 01:28:39 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 01:29:51 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a8-176.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 01:30:12 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 01:33:14 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 01:34:04 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@n8vwdu04eps78g521-2.v6.elisa-mobile.fi)
2021-10-07 01:37:15 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
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2021-10-07 01:40:41 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250)
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2021-10-07 01:42:30 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-10-07 01:43:13 +0200 <monochrom> My impression is that the best known technique for this is fuzzing, and it is meant to run for hours.
2021-10-07 01:45:05 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 01:45:35 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2021-10-07 01:45:55 +0200 <monochrom> But regarding a tree-like ADT and so generating random trees, it is very easy to make a very dumb mistake, I made it once.
2021-10-07 01:46:07 +0200acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d0c703cb14e484f2ea659578d3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-10-07 01:46:40 +0200 <monochrom> I had a binary tree type. So I went "how about 0.5 chance leaf, 0.5 chance branch-and-recurse".
2021-10-07 01:46:40 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@n8vwdu04eps78g521-2.v6.elisa-mobile.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 01:47:16 +0200 <monochrom> It ran for a long time building a very large tree. Actually I didn't wait for it to stop.
2021-10-07 01:47:20 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a8-176.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-10-07 01:47:31 +0200nvmd(~nvmd@user/nvmd)
2021-10-07 01:48:05 +0200 <monochrom> Someone here pointed out the obvious: So at every node, the expected number of children is 1?
2021-10-07 01:48:54 +0200 <monochrom> That explains why the algorithm is trying to generate an infinite tree.
2021-10-07 01:49:01 +0200 <lbseale> XD
2021-10-07 01:49:34 +0200 <monochrom> That incident inspired me to take a look at a few papers and learn some related math.
2021-10-07 01:49:52 +0200 <awpr> it's interesting that it has a decent chance of fizzling out right away, but once it gets going, it's probably not going to terminate
2021-10-07 01:50:29 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@8.6.144.117) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 01:51:10 +0200dajoer(~david@user/gvx)
2021-10-07 01:52:05 +0200 <monochrom> For example, if you have decided "p chance of leaf, 1-p chance of branch-and-recurse", there is a formula about expected total size, and the theory involves some beautiful combinatoric techniques such as generating functions.
2021-10-07 01:52:11 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 01:53:37 +0200 <monochrom> (And of course you invert that formula to find out: If you want an expected number of 100 nodes, what should p be.)
2021-10-07 01:54:39 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d192-24-122-179.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-10-07 01:54:44 +0200 <awpr> something like p/2^(k*depth) to branch would reign in the exponential growth
2021-10-07 01:55:34 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-10-07 01:55:37 +0200 <monochrom> And then there is a series of papers investigating: Suppose you use that algorithm plus this: In case you end up with a tree too large/small, you throw it away and try again. How many times will you have to try?
2021-10-07 01:56:02 +0200 <monochrom> And then the proof wanders into complex analysis land.
2021-10-07 01:56:14 +0200 <monochrom> This can be a very deep rabbit hole.
2021-10-07 01:56:18 +0200emf(~emf@2620:10d:c090:400::5:9760) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 01:59:21 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2021-10-07 02:01:11 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d192-24-122-179.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-10-07 02:04:10 +0200Gurkenglas(~Gurkengla@dslb-002-203-144-204.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 02:06:05 +0200 <monochrom> If you want this rabbit hole, the search term is "Boltzmann sampler"
2021-10-07 02:07:41 +0200Guest82(~Guest82@eth-west-pareq2-46-193-4-100.wb.wifirst.net)
2021-10-07 02:08:58 +0200 <monochrom> I think some of the early contributors of quickcheck and Arbitrary tried to dive into that literature too, precisely because they hoped to give you a derive-Generic solution to user-defined ADTs.
2021-10-07 02:09:28 +0200 <Guest82> I asked here earlier today about Megaparsec not accepting '\/' in charLiteral and it turned out this is according to the haskell report of 2010
2021-10-07 02:10:59 +0200 <Guest82> but any parser primitives I put my hands on reference readLitChar in Data.Char. Even anySingle
2021-10-07 02:11:15 +0200P1RATEZ(piratez@user/p1ratez)
2021-10-07 02:12:53 +0200 <Guest82> Sorry but I reaaally don't see where to go from here, I have the general idea (thanks to a kind person here) of using lookAhead to check the char after `\` but that's about it
2021-10-07 02:13:06 +0200nvmd(~nvmd@user/nvmd) (Quit: Later, nerds.)
2021-10-07 02:13:17 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 02:15:02 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2021-10-07 02:15:30 +0200 <monochrom> So don't use charLiteral?
2021-10-07 02:16:20 +0200 <Guest82> monochrom: umm but what do I replace it with? I can't even read the backslashes in a "raw way" to handle them how I need
2021-10-07 02:17:56 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-10-07 02:18:00 +0200 <monochrom> anySingle can. char '\\' can.
2021-10-07 02:18:34 +0200 <awpr> maybe there's a lexer in the mix that's already rejecting the escapes before the "real" parser sees them?
2021-10-07 02:18:46 +0200 <monochrom> anySingleBut '\\' can accept a non-\ character, in case you're also looking for somthing to <|> with.
2021-10-07 02:20:18 +0200pfurla_(~pfurla@176.67.85.207)
2021-10-07 02:21:23 +0200phma(~phma@host-67-44-209-33.hnremote.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 02:23:14 +0200pfurla(~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 02:23:50 +0200 <Guest82> monochrom: so I would for example keep parsing with anySingleBut '\\' and fallback to getting my escape sequences if that fails?
2021-10-07 02:24:40 +0200 <monochrom> Or keep parsing with char '\\' and fall back to getting non-escape sequences if that fails
2021-10-07 02:25:22 +0200 <monochrom> Or keep parsing with anySingle and have an if-then-else
2021-10-07 02:25:45 +0200concrete-houses(~g@209.6.150.53) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-10-07 02:25:55 +0200 <monochrom> Or roll your own charLiteral
2021-10-07 02:26:24 +0200 <Guest82> in that case I would need to lookAhead of '\\' to make sure there is actually a valid escape char, won't I?
2021-10-07 02:26:42 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-50.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-10-07 02:26:43 +0200 <monochrom> Depends on the rest of your code.
2021-10-07 02:27:07 +0200z0k(~zarak@39.40.56.110)
2021-10-07 02:28:01 +0200 <awpr> if there's an invalid escape char, should it try consuming the backslash as something other than an escape, or should it be an error?
2021-10-07 02:28:11 +0200 <monochrom> I have never needed lookAhead.
2021-10-07 02:28:34 +0200 <monochrom> Including those cases when someone thinks they need lookAhead.
2021-10-07 02:29:17 +0200pfurla(~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net)
2021-10-07 02:29:23 +0200 <monochrom> But the overall organization of the parser has to be done to centre around <|> rather than centre around lookAhead.
2021-10-07 02:29:34 +0200azeem(~azeem@2a00:801:2d6:ef11:512b:756c:612a:d872) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-10-07 02:29:50 +0200 <monochrom> That is, following a carefully designed grammar.
2021-10-07 02:30:02 +0200 <monochrom> Have you ever written down your grammar somewhere?
2021-10-07 02:30:27 +0200 <Guest82> Well my parser has no lookAhead up until now. I only have choice and optional
2021-10-07 02:30:55 +0200 <Guest82> monochrom: https://github.com/kdl-org/kdl/blob/main/SPEC.md#full-grammar
2021-10-07 02:31:09 +0200alzgh(~alzgh@user/alzgh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 02:31:26 +0200mmhat(~mmh@55d43024.access.ecotel.net) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
2021-10-07 02:31:29 +0200 <monochrom> I think every question I've seen on this channel that resulted in lookAhead happens to be also a case of someone pulling their parser code out of the blue.
2021-10-07 02:31:29 +0200alzgh(~alzgh@user/alzgh)
2021-10-07 02:31:46 +0200pfurla_(~pfurla@176.67.85.207) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 02:32:13 +0200 <awpr> doesn't look like that string literal grammar needs lookahead: it doesn't accept backslashes except as the start of an escape
2021-10-07 02:32:40 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-10-07 02:32:41 +0200phma(~phma@host-67-44-208-121.hnremote.net)
2021-10-07 02:33:04 +0200azeem(~azeem@2a00:801:42c:d139:9d0f:28fb:e46a:c37b)
2021-10-07 02:33:31 +0200 <awpr> um, unless the second backslash in `character := '\' escape | [^\"]` is escaping the quote
2021-10-07 02:34:04 +0200 <monochrom> Looks like simply character = (char '\' >> escape) <|> noneOf "\\\"" and since they don't have a common prefix, you don't even need "try".
2021-10-07 02:34:48 +0200 <monochrom> I think ^ says \ is \ itself :)
2021-10-07 02:35:02 +0200stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 02:35:03 +0200 <awpr> yeah, I think so, too. just not really sure
2021-10-07 02:35:27 +0200stiell(~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
2021-10-07 02:36:33 +0200 <monochrom> escape = oneOf "\"\\/bfnrt" <|> (string "u{" >> ...)
2021-10-07 02:36:43 +0200 <monochrom> or whatever "string" is called in megaparsec.
2021-10-07 02:37:20 +0200 <Guest82> what is the (string "u{" >> ...) part for?
2021-10-07 02:37:33 +0200 <monochrom> escape := ["\\/bfnrt] | 'u{' hex-digit{1, 6} '}' You saw that?
2021-10-07 02:37:39 +0200 <c_wraith> if that's perlish, [^\"] is "any character except backslash or double-quote"
2021-10-07 02:37:49 +0200myShoggoth(~myShoggot@97-120-70-214.ptld.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-10-07 02:38:08 +0200 <awpr> "perlish", is that like "churlish"?
2021-10-07 02:38:26 +0200 <c_wraith> that sounds like a trap. :P
2021-10-07 02:38:34 +0200 <monochrom> How this very readily directly-codable grammar led to the conclusion of charLiteral, I don't want to know.
2021-10-07 02:38:45 +0200 <Guest82> monochrom: oh I recall now. I had so much trouble with bfnrt that I forgot about the unicode escapes haha
2021-10-07 02:39:55 +0200 <Guest82> monochrom: you mean why I chose charLiteral instead of writing it myself? I had no idea how to use megaparsec
2021-10-07 02:40:09 +0200 <monochrom> So don't use megaparsec?
2021-10-07 02:40:40 +0200 <Guest82> well I wanted to learn as I also can't use anything else :^)
2021-10-07 02:40:47 +0200 <monochrom> "Hi I need to write a webapp, so I decided arbitrarily to write it in javascript, except I don't know how to write in javascript"
2021-10-07 02:40:54 +0200brainfreeze(~brainfree@2a03:1b20:4:f011::20d) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 02:41:30 +0200 <Guest82> Fair enough, thanks for the useful descriptions
2021-10-07 02:43:27 +0200pfurla_(~pfurla@176.67.85.208)
2021-10-07 02:43:36 +0200 <Guest82> I didn't know you could write things so directly like this
2021-10-07 02:44:07 +0200 <Guest82> the grammar translates almost perfectly
2021-10-07 02:45:36 +0200libertyprime(~libertypr@121.99.51.17)
2021-10-07 02:45:44 +0200pfurla(~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 02:47:45 +0200 <libertyprime> just for posterity: i figured out the source of my problems with hls unable to find imports. i had to make a simple hie.yaml that pointed to cabal. my breadcrumb trail started at simply running haskell-language-server-wrapper in my project directory.
2021-10-07 02:48:15 +0200 <libertyprime> but now that i've done that, hls is working brilliantly.
2021-10-07 02:53:23 +0200hiruji(~hiruji@user/hiruji)
2021-10-07 02:54:42 +0200abarbu(~user@c-66-31-23-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
2021-10-07 02:57:27 +0200 <abarbu> Am I doing something wrong or does doing a nix-build with a buildStackProject derivation never hit cachix?
2021-10-07 02:57:53 +0200bdaed(~bdaed@185.234.208.208.r.toneticgroup.pl)
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2021-10-07 03:13:13 +0200AndrewYuAndrew
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2021-10-07 03:14:14 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-10-07 03:22:59 +0200lbseale(~lbseale@user/ep1ctetus)
2021-10-07 03:23:28 +0200 <dsal> I use haskell.nix and have an OK time with cachix.
2021-10-07 03:26:30 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2)
2021-10-07 03:29:52 +0200bitmapper(uid464869@id-464869.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-10-07 03:36:38 +0200P1RATEZ(piratez@user/p1ratez) (Quit: kdrama time ;)
2021-10-07 03:40:37 +0200alzgh(~alzgh@user/alzgh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 03:41:09 +0200lbseale(~lbseale@user/ep1ctetus) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-10-07 03:44:49 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-10-07 03:46:07 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 03:48:14 +0200libertyprime(~libertypr@121.99.51.17) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 03:48:41 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2021-10-07 03:48:47 +0200myShoggoth(~myShoggot@97-120-70-214.ptld.qwest.net)
2021-10-07 03:49:02 +0200xiongxin(~quassel@113.116.33.66)
2021-10-07 03:49:23 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 03:50:18 +0200libertyprime(~libertypr@118.149.86.94)
2021-10-07 03:54:32 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com)
2021-10-07 04:03:20 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2021-10-07 04:03:20 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d192-24-122-179.try.wideopenwest.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 04:04:01 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d192-24-122-179.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-10-07 04:06:46 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d192-24-122-179.try.wideopenwest.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 04:07:38 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d192-24-122-179.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-10-07 04:10:20 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 04:11:35 +0200ezzieyguywuf(~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf)
2021-10-07 04:13:25 +0200jespada(~jespada@2803:9800:9842:7a62:24b8:8bfb:be5c:585b) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-10-07 04:13:53 +0200jespada(~jespada@2803:9800:9842:7a62:24b8:8bfb:be5c:585b)
2021-10-07 04:14:02 +0200jespada(~jespada@2803:9800:9842:7a62:24b8:8bfb:be5c:585b) (Client Quit)
2021-10-07 04:14:36 +0200jespada(~jespada@2803:9800:9842:7a62:24b8:8bfb:be5c:585b)
2021-10-07 04:15:01 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com) (Quit: daylily)
2021-10-07 04:15:13 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com)
2021-10-07 04:15:15 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 04:15:24 +0200daylily_(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com)
2021-10-07 04:15:24 +0200daylily_daylily
2021-10-07 04:15:32 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 04:15:44 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com)
2021-10-07 04:15:46 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com) (Client Quit)
2021-10-07 04:15:58 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com)
2021-10-07 04:16:08 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 04:20:34 +0200jespada(~jespada@2803:9800:9842:7a62:24b8:8bfb:be5c:585b) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-10-07 04:21:04 +0200jespada(~jespada@host196.190-3-30.dynamic.telmex.net.ar)
2021-10-07 04:21:44 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2021-10-07 04:22:46 +0200jjhoo(~jahakala@user/jjhoo)
2021-10-07 04:23:10 +0200yinghua(~yinghua@2800:2121:1400:900:550d:5356:b600:ab96) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-10-07 04:23:14 +0200geranim0(~geranim0@modemcable242.171-178-173.mc.videotron.ca) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 04:26:03 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com) (Quit: daylily)
2021-10-07 04:26:22 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com)
2021-10-07 04:30:10 +0200pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
2021-10-07 04:30:38 +0200Psybur(~Psybur@mobile-166-170-32-197.mycingular.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 04:30:45 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 04:31:10 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 04:32:41 +0200jesscatoshi_nyakamot
2021-10-07 04:32:54 +0200catoshi_nyakamotCatoshiNyakamoto
2021-10-07 04:34:20 +0200myShoggoth(~myShoggot@97-120-70-214.ptld.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 04:35:55 +0200abhixec(~abhixec@c-67-169-139-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2021-10-07 04:36:24 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com) (Quit: daylily)
2021-10-07 04:36:36 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com)
2021-10-07 04:36:47 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com) (Client Quit)
2021-10-07 04:36:59 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com)
2021-10-07 04:37:03 +0200daylily(~daylily@89.208.245.45.16clouds.com) (Client Quit)
2021-10-07 04:41:05 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 04:41:09 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 04:41:29 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 04:46:28 +0200bdaed(~bdaed@185.234.208.208.r.toneticgroup.pl)
2021-10-07 04:50:31 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 04:50:48 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-10-07 04:50:49 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Changing host)
2021-10-07 04:50:49 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2021-10-07 04:50:56 +0200bdaed(~bdaed@185.234.208.208.r.toneticgroup.pl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 04:51:25 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 04:51:49 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 04:52:46 +0200myShoggoth(~myShoggot@97-120-70-214.ptld.qwest.net)
2021-10-07 04:55:52 +0200td_(~td@94.134.91.91) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-10-07 04:56:47 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 04:57:51 +0200td_(~td@94.134.91.74)
2021-10-07 04:58:17 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2021-10-07 05:01:45 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-10-07 05:02:24 +0200abhixec(~abhixec@c-67-169-139-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 05:03:28 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-10-07 05:06:06 +0200danso(~danso@23-233-111-52.cpe.pppoe.ca)
2021-10-07 05:10:13 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250)
2021-10-07 05:12:05 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 05:12:31 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 05:12:40 +0200abhixec(~abhixec@c-67-169-139-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2021-10-07 05:22:26 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 05:22:52 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 05:23:09 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 05:23:24 +0200mbuf(~Shakthi@136.185.79.30)
2021-10-07 05:28:57 +0200abhixec(~abhixec@c-67-169-139-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 05:30:03 +0200abhixec(~abhixec@c-67-169-139-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2021-10-07 05:30:56 +0200z0k(~zarak@39.40.56.110) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 05:31:36 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2)
2021-10-07 05:32:48 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 05:33:14 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 05:36:46 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@135-23-192-217.cpe.pppoe.ca) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 05:38:08 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 05:38:27 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-10-07 05:42:05 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck)
2021-10-07 05:43:10 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 05:43:16 +0200ormaaj(~ormaaj@user/ormaaj) (Quit: Reconnecting)
2021-10-07 05:43:35 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 05:43:51 +0200ormaaj(~ormaaj@user/ormaaj)
2021-10-07 05:47:51 +0200abhixec(~abhixec@c-67-169-139-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 05:49:16 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:216:8200:d457:9189:7843:1dbd) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 05:52:01 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 05:52:25 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
2021-10-07 05:53:31 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 05:53:57 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 05:56:25 +0200danso(~danso@23-233-111-52.cpe.pppoe.ca) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 05:56:51 +0200danso(~danso@23-233-111-52.cpe.pppoe.ca)
2021-10-07 05:57:15 +0200CatoshiNyakamotojess
2021-10-07 06:01:40 +0200abhixec(~abhixec@c-67-169-139-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2021-10-07 06:03:51 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-10-07 06:04:29 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 06:07:25 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck)
2021-10-07 06:08:01 +0200zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 06:14:12 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 06:14:37 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 06:21:21 +0200libertyprime(~libertypr@118.149.86.94) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 06:24:32 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-10-07 06:33:34 +0200libertyprime(~libertypr@118.149.86.94)
2021-10-07 06:33:42 +0200libertyprime(~libertypr@118.149.86.94) (Client Quit)
2021-10-07 06:34:25 +0200bdaed(~bdaed@185.234.208.208.r.toneticgroup.pl)
2021-10-07 06:34:33 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250)
2021-10-07 06:34:52 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-10-07 06:38:51 +0200bdaed(~bdaed@185.234.208.208.r.toneticgroup.pl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 06:45:11 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 06:45:27 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-10-07 06:45:37 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 06:49:28 +0200slowButPresent(~slowButPr@user/slowbutpresent) (Quit: leaving)
2021-10-07 06:49:41 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 06:55:33 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-10-07 06:57:52 +0200Amras(~Amras@user/Amras) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-10-07 07:03:05 +0200abrantesasf(~abrantesa@187.36.170.211) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 07:04:53 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 07:05:53 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 07:06:15 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 07:06:18 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 07:07:33 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 07:11:53 +0200chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc18:b400:12c3:7bff:fe6d:d374)
2021-10-07 07:13:25 +0200zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00) (Quit: Gone.)
2021-10-07 07:15:59 +0200zmt00(~zmt00@user/zmt00)
2021-10-07 07:16:01 +0200sleblanc(~sleblanc@user/sleblanc)
2021-10-07 07:16:13 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 07:16:38 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 07:24:17 +0200Nahra``(~user@static.161.95.99.88.clients.your-server.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 07:24:57 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 07:26:33 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-10-07 07:27:52 +0200Nahra``(~user@static.161.95.99.88.clients.your-server.de)
2021-10-07 07:33:19 +0200Nahra``(~user@static.161.95.99.88.clients.your-server.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 07:33:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-10-07 07:36:54 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 07:37:19 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 07:41:56 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-10-07 07:41:56 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Changing host)
2021-10-07 07:41:56 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2021-10-07 07:45:58 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.204.87)
2021-10-07 07:46:21 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 07:47:14 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 07:47:39 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 07:48:53 +0200mei(~mei@user/mei)
2021-10-07 07:53:24 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250)
2021-10-07 07:55:51 +0200 <dminuoso> Axman6: summing :: (Is k A_Fold, Is l A_Fold) => Optic' k is s a -> Optic' l js s a -> Fold s a
2021-10-07 07:56:38 +0200 <dminuoso> In lens you can simply use <> to achieve the same, which is yet another of those "you have to be a wizard to recognize and know about this interface". :p
2021-10-07 07:57:29 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:5214:3f00:ae6e:7be1:7e40:7547) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 07:57:35 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 07:57:55 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-10-07 07:58:01 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
2021-10-07 07:58:17 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:5214:3f00:6100:edb4:46e4:4e62)
2021-10-07 08:04:08 +0200vicfred(~vicfred@user/vicfred) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-10-07 08:04:33 +0200rembo10(~rembo10@remulis.com) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-10-07 08:04:54 +0200libertyprime(~libertypr@118.149.86.94)
2021-10-07 08:05:32 +0200rembo10(~rembo10@remulis.com)
2021-10-07 08:06:14 +0200rtjure(~rtjure@bras-79-132-17-74.comnet.bg)
2021-10-07 08:06:46 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@user/motherfsck) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 08:07:18 +0200fendor(~fendor@178.115.78.172.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2021-10-07 08:07:56 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-10-07 10:10:36 +0200ocramz(~user@c80-216-51-213.bredband.tele2.se)
2021-10-07 10:10:43 +0200 <ocramz> hullo o/
2021-10-07 10:11:22 +0200phma_phma
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2021-10-07 10:17:58 +0200libertyprime(~libertypr@118.149.86.94)
2021-10-07 10:21:29 +0200 <libertyprime> has anyone here tried compiling cardano-node with default.nix? Just wondering because I have started nix-build but several hours and several 10s of GBs later haskell is still compiling the project. *pulling hair out*
2021-10-07 10:21:40 +0200 <maerwald> libertyprime: use cabal
2021-10-07 10:21:42 +0200 <maerwald> trash nix
2021-10-07 10:21:50 +0200 <maerwald> cardano-node is developed via cabal
2021-10-07 10:21:58 +0200 <maerwald> deployment/CI is nix
2021-10-07 10:22:43 +0200 <maerwald> or set up the IOHK nix cache
2021-10-07 10:22:50 +0200 <libertyprime> ... *cries*. shouldve done that
2021-10-07 10:23:04 +0200 <maerwald> https://github.com/input-output-hk/cardano-node/blob/master/doc/getting-started/building-the-node-…
2021-10-07 10:25:00 +0200 <libertyprime> maerwald: thank you so much
2021-10-07 10:25:03 +0200bdaed(~bdaed@185.234.208.208.r.toneticgroup.pl)
2021-10-07 10:25:29 +0200 <maerwald> but I don't see why you'd want to download the size of 3 operating systems instead of just using cabal
2021-10-07 10:26:02 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
2021-10-07 10:26:32 +0200 <libertyprime> hmm. indeed... i actually do want to use cabal. i just dont want to admit im falling for the sunken costs fallacy
2021-10-07 10:28:08 +0200 <libertyprime> hmm. since when does cabal do projects
2021-10-07 10:28:18 +0200acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d0c703cb15c01e6432704cfc21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-10-07 10:28:18 +0200 <maerwald> a while
2021-10-07 10:28:22 +0200 <merijn> libertyprime: Since roughly 2015-2016? :p
2021-10-07 10:28:34 +0200 <merijn> Which is when I started using the development release to use those :p
2021-10-07 10:28:47 +0200 <libertyprime> sheet. i see
2021-10-07 10:29:23 +0200 <merijn> Realistically "production" release of it probably 2017-2018ish
2021-10-07 10:29:29 +0200bdaed(~bdaed@185.234.208.208.r.toneticgroup.pl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 10:29:56 +0200 <libertyprime> im the guy who invested in cardano in 2017 and sold when it went lower. also the guy who has been using stack for the last couple years which i think is responsible for making my haskell learning a living hell
2021-10-07 10:30:54 +0200hnOsmium0001(uid453710@id-453710.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-10-07 10:31:34 +0200 <kuribas> libertyprime: what do you not like about stack?
2021-10-07 10:32:10 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2021-10-07 10:33:12 +0200 <libertyprime> http://ix.io/3B50
2021-10-07 10:33:20 +0200 <libertyprime> here's my stack wrapper script
2021-10-07 10:34:02 +0200 <libertyprime> i put fork bomb protection in it among other things. i may be responsible since i tried to make stack do things i probably shouldnt have
2021-10-07 10:34:26 +0200 <libertyprime> theres something in there about globalexec too
2021-10-07 10:34:40 +0200 <libertyprime> ah yeah, thats was kinda annoyin
2021-10-07 10:35:00 +0200 <libertyprime> say i want to run a ghci or ghcid or ghcide inside a project
2021-10-07 10:35:20 +0200 <libertyprime> or outside. idk, as a beginner im very confused when things continually cant compile
2021-10-07 10:35:30 +0200 <libertyprime> though i am probably responsible for messing around
2021-10-07 10:36:01 +0200ocramz(~user@c80-216-51-213.bredband.tele2.se) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 10:37:56 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2021-10-07 10:38:13 +0200 <libertyprime> ther's also a note in there "Stack doesn't usually return output unless something changes". as a beginner that confused me
2021-10-07 10:38:33 +0200 <libertyprime> something on stderr saying, "all is well", would probably alleviate that confusion.
2021-10-07 10:38:48 +0200 <libertyprime> i know it's technically UNIXy correct to do nothing
2021-10-07 10:41:00 +0200 <libertyprime> all said and done stack is a million times better than npm
2021-10-07 10:41:44 +0200azeem(~azeem@2a00:801:42c:d139:9d0f:28fb:e46a:c37b) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 10:41:54 +0200 <libertyprime> oh there's also a note in the script about finding a particular binary, whcih is installed in a local project
2021-10-07 10:41:58 +0200azeem(~azeem@2a00:801:42c:d139:9d0f:28fb:e46a:c37b)
2021-10-07 10:41:58 +0200 <libertyprime> that was difficult to work out, too
2021-10-07 10:42:06 +0200Nahra(~user@static.161.95.99.88.clients.your-server.de)
2021-10-07 10:43:48 +0200 <dminuoso> libertyprime: To build cardano-node with nix, you *really* should use the supplied binary cache.
2021-10-07 10:44:56 +0200 <dminuoso> It's quite a lengthy experience, otherwise.
2021-10-07 10:45:36 +0200 <libertyprime> lol. yes. after several hours -- surely 6 hours or something, i cancelled it and it took about 5 mins to compile with cabal just then
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2021-10-07 10:46:15 +0200 <dminuoso> libertyprime: The thing with nix is, without binary caches, this will bootstrap everything including say GHC.
2021-10-07 10:46:21 +0200 <libertyprime> they really should have a message or something, which says -- this will take a hell of a long time
2021-10-07 10:46:34 +0200 <libertyprime> *just use cabal, seriously*
2021-10-07 10:46:56 +0200 <dminuoso> And the entirety of the transitive dependency tree, not just the haskell packages.
2021-10-07 10:46:59 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 10:47:11 +0200 <maerwald> nix is unergonomic
2021-10-07 10:47:16 +0200 <dminuoso> Think the default installations use the regular cachix, but that wont have everything that is dependend upon in the iohk packages
2021-10-07 10:47:38 +0200 <dminuoso> libertyprime: Well, there is a note saying that using a binary cache will significant improve the speed... :P
2021-10-07 10:47:48 +0200azeem(~azeem@emp-183-4.eduroam.uu.se)
2021-10-07 10:49:21 +0200 <merijn> Sometimes I think "I should use Nix", then I look at it for 10s and come to my senses :p
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2021-10-07 10:49:45 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250)
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2021-10-07 10:50:14 +0200 <maerwald> merijn: but you could invest several years in pain and then it becomes easier
2021-10-07 10:50:43 +0200 <dminuoso> I invested about a year, and yeah, after that year nix has become a wonderful tool.
2021-10-07 10:50:52 +0200 <dminuoso> Even though I hate parts of it, nixos has made our life much much easier.
2021-10-07 10:51:00 +0200 <libertyprime> merijn: all u need is cardano and a language model, i think. that can be the entire computing experience, maybe
2021-10-07 10:51:23 +0200 <maerwald> investing 1 year in a tool is a LOT... and nix in no way is able to pay off one year of investment
2021-10-07 10:51:33 +0200 <dminuoso> Well, it wasnt a year full time.
2021-10-07 10:52:20 +0200 <maerwald> investment/gain ratio just isn't there
2021-10-07 10:52:24 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald: For infrastructure management, I think its worth it. You'd spend just as much time with ansible, chef, puppet, kubernetes, or anything else that might utilize to get manage or deploy infrastructure.
2021-10-07 10:52:47 +0200 <maerwald> I happily removed nix from infrastructure before in a company and everything was more smooth.
2021-10-07 10:52:59 +0200 <dminuoso> Just nix or nixos?
2021-10-07 10:53:08 +0200 <maerwald> nix and nixops
2021-10-07 10:53:19 +0200 <dminuoso> We're very happy with nixos so far for deploying large scale clusters
2021-10-07 10:53:42 +0200brettgilio7(~brettgili@x-node.gq)
2021-10-07 10:54:13 +0200 <maerwald> if you control the deployment, there's very little point in nix
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2021-10-07 10:54:27 +0200brettgilio7brettgilio
2021-10-07 10:54:35 +0200 <dminuoso> We get to fully declaratively describe our serers *shrugs*
2021-10-07 10:54:36 +0200 <maerwald> the only real advantage of nix is that you can share configuration, without sharing binaries or environment
2021-10-07 10:54:55 +0200 <maerwald> if you control the deployment, you don't need to share configuration
2021-10-07 10:54:58 +0200 <maerwald> you control everything anyway
2021-10-07 10:55:03 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald: by the way, much of the long time was due to not having some expert that was able to mentor me. We have 2 folks that Im guiding, and they rapidly pick up nix/nixos.
2021-10-07 10:55:09 +0200 <dminuoso> They're not taking a year. :)
2021-10-07 10:55:28 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald: I dont quite understand the statement wrt to "controlling the deployment"
2021-10-07 10:55:29 +0200 <maerwald> sure, you can also use gentoo for your deployments or anything else and it might be awesome
2021-10-07 10:55:39 +0200hendursa1(~weechat@user/hendursaga) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-10-07 10:55:43 +0200 <dminuoso> Im not talking about deploying a package, but deploying the entire machine
2021-10-07 10:56:03 +0200 <maerwald> dminuoso: well, in some cases, you're not able to actually deploy yourself, so someone else either needs instructions or a configuration that's reproducible
2021-10-07 10:56:09 +0200 <maerwald> in that case, nix has *some* benefit
2021-10-07 10:56:14 +0200 <maerwald> yes, me too
2021-10-07 10:56:17 +0200hendursa1(~weechat@user/hendursaga)
2021-10-07 10:56:18 +0200 <dminuoso> Between the ssh configuration, firewall configuration, motd on login, lets encrypt with either DNS-01 or HTTP-01 challenge, the software that runs on it, the configuration..
2021-10-07 10:56:29 +0200 <maerwald> that can also be done reproducibly without nix
2021-10-07 10:56:36 +0200 <maerwald> with much less complexity
2021-10-07 10:56:38 +0200 <dminuoso> Reproducibly? How?
2021-10-07 10:56:46 +0200 <maerwald> e.g. with gentoo :)
2021-10-07 10:57:04 +0200 <dminuoso> Gentoo has fully declarative configuration management?
2021-10-07 10:57:16 +0200 <maerwald> no, but that has nothing to do with "reproducibly"
2021-10-07 10:57:29 +0200 <dminuoso> What does "reproducibly" even mean?
2021-10-07 10:57:37 +0200 <dminuoso> I have some config snippet that configures SSH a particular way.
2021-10-07 10:57:43 +0200 <dminuoso> How do you distribute this bit onto your entire server fleet?
2021-10-07 10:57:47 +0200 <dminuoso> Assuming they all run gentoo
2021-10-07 10:57:49 +0200 <maerwald> reproducibly means you can deploy one gentoo machine like another
2021-10-07 10:57:53 +0200 <maerwald> and you can easily
2021-10-07 10:57:57 +0200 <dminuoso> And how does that deployment work?
2021-10-07 10:57:59 +0200fendor_(~fendor@178.165.191.25.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2021-10-07 10:58:09 +0200 <maerwald> sorry, I'm not gonna write it for you now
2021-10-07 10:58:09 +0200 <dminuoso> How do you push that SSH config bit onto every server?
2021-10-07 10:58:15 +0200 <maerwald> but you can
2021-10-07 10:58:20 +0200 <dminuoso> Well.. you say you can. Im asking, using what?
2021-10-07 10:58:24 +0200 <dminuoso> I genuinely dont know
2021-10-07 10:58:33 +0200 <maerwald> you check in your config into a git repo?
2021-10-07 10:58:48 +0200 <maerwald> nix doesn't do any magic, really
2021-10-07 10:59:10 +0200 <maerwald> gentoo packages is in a git repo, you just freeze the commit
2021-10-07 10:59:14 +0200 <dminuoso> With nixops the entirety of systemd is declaratively controlled. So no machine runs systemd units that I dont declare, you cant even backdoor this.
2021-10-07 10:59:15 +0200 <maerwald> and you get the same packages always
2021-10-07 10:59:17 +0200 <dminuoso> *nixos
2021-10-07 10:59:26 +0200 <maerwald> nix again does the same
2021-10-07 10:59:26 +0200 <dminuoso> I see
2021-10-07 10:59:28 +0200 <maerwald> nothing special
2021-10-07 10:59:32 +0200 <maerwald> old approach
2021-10-07 10:59:48 +0200 <maerwald> just better marketing
2021-10-07 11:00:03 +0200 <dminuoso> Yeah no, I think you're greatly mischaracterizing nixos
2021-10-07 11:00:13 +0200sky_lounge[m](~skylounge@2001:470:69fc:105::efa6) (Quit: You have been kicked for being idle)
2021-10-07 11:00:31 +0200fendor(~fendor@178.115.78.172.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 11:00:39 +0200 <dminuoso> The stuff we're building, you cant trivially do with manually written config stored in a git repo
2021-10-07 11:00:46 +0200 <dminuoso> Or rather, it'd be a major pain in the butt
2021-10-07 11:00:51 +0200 <maerwald> gentoo even supports binary packages, so you can have pretty much an equivalent of nix cache
2021-10-07 11:01:01 +0200 <maerwald> I doubt that
2021-10-07 11:01:12 +0200 <dminuoso> Let me give you an example:
2021-10-07 11:01:21 +0200 <maerwald> but I'm not paid to convince your company otherwise, so.. :p
2021-10-07 11:01:46 +0200 <maerwald> the declarativeness of nix isn't particularly reliable either
2021-10-07 11:01:53 +0200 <maerwald> it easily breaks when you bump the commit
2021-10-07 11:02:24 +0200 <maerwald> you have similar issues when using upstream config format
2021-10-07 11:03:03 +0200 <maerwald> there are a lot of tools that abstract over that too, without nix
2021-10-07 11:03:24 +0200 <maerwald> you pin their versions and pin the distro state
2021-10-07 11:03:26 +0200 <maerwald> and you have the same
2021-10-07 11:03:36 +0200 <dminuoso> https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/6fadc3855d2dd9f69b8d33e5f756fbea
2021-10-07 11:03:39 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net)
2021-10-07 11:03:57 +0200 <dminuoso> So this is the type of thing that is very hard to obtain without a fully declarative configuration
2021-10-07 11:04:26 +0200 <maerwald> Odd... I managed
2021-10-07 11:04:27 +0200 <dminuoso> This automatically provides a http service discovery endpoint, that names *all* hosts and URIs to all configured Prometheus exporters
2021-10-07 11:05:10 +0200 <dminuoso> You can probably roll something similar with puppet
2021-10-07 11:05:16 +0200 <maerwald> I guess configuring a full jenkins with automatic pipelines, dnyamic amazon runners, docker builds, deployments, 3-4 test instances etc etc is too hard without nix?
2021-10-07 11:05:21 +0200 <maerwald> It took me 2 weeks
2021-10-07 11:05:24 +0200 <maerwald> the nix config took months
2021-10-07 11:05:33 +0200 <dminuoso> I have no experience with jenkins, so I cant say
2021-10-07 11:05:46 +0200 <maerwald> and I didn't have to mentor anyone afterwards
2021-10-07 11:05:49 +0200 <maerwald> documentation was enough
2021-10-07 11:06:24 +0200 <maerwald> so yeah, I consider nix a danger to your startup
2021-10-07 11:06:41 +0200DNH(~DNH@2a02:8108:1100:16d8:a11a:d19d:8c20:4068)
2021-10-07 11:07:11 +0200 <maerwald> but I'm not a devops really, so let them do whatever they want :p
2021-10-07 11:07:12 +0200 <dexterfoo> jenkins config is a tangled mess of XML files that can only reasonably be configured via the GUI. how did you automate that?
2021-10-07 11:07:15 +0200 <merijn> oh, maybe I should promote Nix to ruin startups!
2021-10-07 11:07:23 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald: the ability to intermix code and configuration is just too useful. And yeah, I mean you can start using jinja and dynamically generate config.
2021-10-07 11:07:47 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald: but then you get to the problem of "how does that description also assert that software is present and running", or how do you assure that its "not present and not running"
2021-10-07 11:08:15 +0200 <dminuoso> And the reality is, if you have long running servers, sooner or later someone is going to logon to the system and do something like `apt install nginx` for some bizarre reason, and forget about it
2021-10-07 11:08:44 +0200 <maerwald> dexterfoo: you configure via the GUI
2021-10-07 11:09:03 +0200 <maerwald> and the relevant files get checked into the git repo
2021-10-07 11:09:20 +0200 <maerwald> usually, you have *one* jenkins btw ;)
2021-10-07 11:10:40 +0200 <maerwald> dminuoso: chef, puppet, ansible, propellor, ....
2021-10-07 11:10:53 +0200 <maerwald> there's tons of tools to pick from
2021-10-07 11:11:00 +0200 <maerwald> all of them are more sane than nix
2021-10-07 11:11:08 +0200 <dminuoso> Okay, you hate nix. I get it. :)
2021-10-07 11:11:13 +0200 <dminuoso> We love nix.
2021-10-07 11:11:36 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn)
2021-10-07 11:11:46 +0200 <dminuoso> And by the way, out of that list, only puppet can reasonably do what i suggested above.
2021-10-07 11:12:05 +0200 <dminuoso> ansible/chef/propellor all cant deal with people bypassing your automation
2021-10-07 11:12:29 +0200 <maerwald> dminuoso: I was on a similar trip like nix boys are now. I introduced a high-complexity gentoo config to a "customer" (friend I knew from university). He told me he'll never be able to upgrade this thing on his own. I said "naah"
2021-10-07 11:12:36 +0200 <maerwald> and 5 years later we met again and that happened
2021-10-07 11:12:44 +0200 <dminuoso> and they also dont declare the machine, they're just automated imperative commands - so you always have some precondition on the current state
2021-10-07 11:12:50 +0200 <dminuoso> which means deploying to a fresh machine might produce a different result
2021-10-07 11:13:25 +0200arjun_(~Srain@user/arjun) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 11:13:30 +0200 <maerwald> people using nix seems to have very little concerns about *updates*
2021-10-07 11:13:44 +0200edwtjo(~edwtjo@h-109-228-137-133.A213.priv.bahnhof.se)
2021-10-07 11:13:45 +0200edwtjo(~edwtjo@h-109-228-137-133.A213.priv.bahnhof.se) (Changing host)
2021-10-07 11:13:45 +0200edwtjo(~edwtjo@user/edwtjo)
2021-10-07 11:14:21 +0200phma(~phma@host-67-44-208-121.hnremote.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 11:14:34 +0200 <maerwald> nix has no abstraction... you have to understand everything
2021-10-07 11:14:45 +0200 <dminuoso> Well nix does have abstractions
2021-10-07 11:14:48 +0200 <maerwald> otherwise you can't maintain it
2021-10-07 11:14:57 +0200benin0369323016(~benin@183.82.176.241)
2021-10-07 11:15:00 +0200 <maerwald> no, it doesn't distinguish between code and config
2021-10-07 11:15:06 +0200 <maerwald> so you have to understand the code
2021-10-07 11:15:08 +0200 <maerwald> all of it
2021-10-07 11:15:20 +0200hexagoxel(~hexagoxel@hexagoxel.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-10-07 11:15:20 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald: at the very least you *can* maintain it in a singular simple language. If I want to package something for say centos, I have to first figure out how to use ancient and antiquated rpm
2021-10-07 11:15:33 +0200 <maerwald> dminuoso: again, there are abstractions for it
2021-10-07 11:15:35 +0200 <dminuoso> Packaging up software for nixos is really trivial in comparison.. :p
2021-10-07 11:15:38 +0200 <maerwald> since decades
2021-10-07 11:15:39 +0200barrucadu(~barrucadu@carcosa.barrucadu.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 11:15:40 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald: *horrible* abstractions.
2021-10-07 11:15:50 +0200 <maerwald> not much different from nix then
2021-10-07 11:16:08 +0200barrucadu(~barrucadu@carcosa.barrucadu.co.uk)
2021-10-07 11:16:19 +0200 <dminuoso> Anyway. We update our nixos machines regularly.
2021-10-07 11:16:42 +0200hexagoxel(~hexagoxel@2a01:4f8:c0c:e::2)
2021-10-07 11:17:24 +0200 <dminuoso> Our mail cluster has a duplicate, using the exact same configuration (it's the same files, even!), with just IP addresses and hostnames swapped out. We just bump nixpkgs, deploy to the cluster, run integration tests, and if all is green, we deploy to production.
2021-10-07 11:17:41 +0200 <dminuoso> And because its nixos, we have a high confidence production will behave exactly the same
2021-10-07 11:18:06 +0200 <maerwald> I'd love to know how many man-hours IOHK put into their nix infrastructure. And I'm confident the numbers would be so high that from a business/financial perspective, it's a loss compared to other solutions.
2021-10-07 11:19:05 +0200 <dminuoso> Im probably somewhere around 100 hours, and for one coworker we spend maybe 10 hours total, and he has enough competency to fully dissect and rebuild nixos modules.
2021-10-07 11:19:08 +0200 <maerwald> but now other people benefit from it too it seems, so
2021-10-07 11:19:12 +0200 <dminuoso> So I dont know..
2021-10-07 11:19:40 +0200 <dminuoso> If it takes just 10 hours of investment to get someone with enough competency to package up custom software, modify official nixos modules..
2021-10-07 11:19:52 +0200 <dminuoso> I mean yeah, much of the subtlety in nix is for touching derivations
2021-10-07 11:19:59 +0200 <dminuoso> So that's far more complicated
2021-10-07 11:20:11 +0200 <dminuoso> But in case of just regular "we wanna use standard software" that's not even remotely needed.
2021-10-07 11:20:48 +0200 <maerwald> usual nix use case: "Just do this..." -> 5 hours later reading through humongous reddit threads, where someone is desparately looking for a solution and the answer took several nix maintainers several weeks to figure out there's a bug in their config
2021-10-07 11:21:35 +0200 <maerwald> because when you config language is turing complete
2021-10-07 11:21:37 +0200 <maerwald> you get more bugs
2021-10-07 11:21:40 +0200 <maerwald> who knew?
2021-10-07 11:23:14 +0200 <dminuoso> What can I say, this prometheus service discovery is either going to be very error prone if done by hand, or Im not sure you can trivially do this without a programmatic configuration language
2021-10-07 11:23:47 +0200 <dminuoso> But we havent encountered any such "takes several weeks" bugs yet.
2021-10-07 11:24:47 +0200 <dminuoso> I mean yeah, there's the odd "whoops, why I cant refer to pkgs in imports in a nixos module" moment, that requires a nix expert to explain. But that one is solved after a few minutes on matrix/irc/mailing list if you cared enough about it.
2021-10-07 11:25:06 +0200 <dminuoso> Generally we try to do minimalistic nixos modules, which are largely trivial
2021-10-07 11:25:15 +0200 <dminuoso> So we dont even invite these situations
2021-10-07 11:31:59 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 11:35:23 +0200phma(~phma@host-67-44-208-17.hnremote.net)
2021-10-07 11:40:06 +0200enoq(~enoq@2a05:1141:1f5:5600:b9c9:721a:599:bfe7)
2021-10-07 11:42:54 +0200mmhat(~mmh@55d4f475.access.ecotel.net)
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2021-10-07 11:43:25 +0200mmhat(~mmh@55d4f475.access.ecotel.net)
2021-10-07 11:43:41 +0200chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc18:b400:12c3:7bff:fe6d:d374) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 11:44:29 +0200benin03693230163(~benin@183.82.176.241)
2021-10-07 11:44:56 +0200 <__monty__> dminuoso: Wait, that can't be solved, can it?
2021-10-07 11:45:33 +0200 <dminuoso> __monty__: No it cant.
2021-10-07 11:45:42 +0200 <dminuoso> But it's really not a big deal.
2021-10-07 11:45:53 +0200 <__monty__> The main advantage of Nix to me is the ease of rollbacks. You don't have to worry as much about messing things up because it's so easy to just pretend nothing happened.
2021-10-07 11:46:03 +0200 <dminuoso> I noticed it when I tried to do something like `imports = [ (pkgs.fetchFromGitHub { ... }) ];`
2021-10-07 11:46:10 +0200 <__monty__> Yeah, me too.
2021-10-07 11:46:29 +0200 <__monty__> I'd prefer it was possible though, builtins.fetchurl is so limited.
2021-10-07 11:46:32 +0200 <dminuoso> But its not a big deal since you can simply use builtins.fetchGit instead.
2021-10-07 11:46:34 +0200cheater(~Username@user/cheater) (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 11:48:02 +0200benin0369323016(~benin@183.82.176.241) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 11:48:02 +0200benin03693230163benin0369323016
2021-10-07 11:48:19 +0200 <__monty__> Right, but doesn't that always clone the repo? (Didn't intend to turn this into #nixos though >.<)
2021-10-07 11:48:34 +0200 <dminuoso> __monty__: "always"?
2021-10-07 11:48:41 +0200 <dminuoso> Well the real solution is to use nix flakes. :P
2021-10-07 11:48:47 +0200 <dminuoso> In our case we made a mono repo, so that worked too
2021-10-07 11:49:12 +0200 <dminuoso> And no, actually that's one of those subtle things. If I understand it correctly, the specified sha256 hash is used as the hash in the generated store path.
2021-10-07 11:49:19 +0200 <dminuoso> (This is just based on observation)
2021-10-07 11:50:06 +0200 <dminuoso> This is why simply changing the url will surprisingly not refetch that repository (and generate a possibly expected sha mismatch error for trust-on-first-use)
2021-10-07 11:50:21 +0200 <__monty__> Yeah, it's a FOD. Maybe the difference I'm remembering is that you *have* to specify the sha256 to make it a FOD while the revision is enough for fetchFromGithub? There was some subtle difference.
2021-10-07 11:50:24 +0200benin03693230163(~benin@183.82.176.241)
2021-10-07 11:50:45 +0200 <dminuoso> FOD?
2021-10-07 11:51:42 +0200 <__monty__> Fixed output derivation.
2021-10-07 11:52:10 +0200Guest82(~Guest82@eth-west-pareq2-46-193-4-100.wb.wifirst.net) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-10-07 11:52:50 +0200 <dminuoso> Ah yeah
2021-10-07 11:53:01 +0200benin0369323016(~benin@183.82.176.241) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2021-10-07 12:33:19 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
2021-10-07 12:33:45 +0200nl3dee(~nl3dee@ns388898.ip-176-31-255.eu)
2021-10-07 12:36:24 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
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2021-10-07 12:40:47 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 12:42:01 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 12:42:32 +0200olibiera(~olibiera@194.117.40.220)
2021-10-07 12:42:37 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2021-10-07 12:43:13 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-10-07 12:43:53 +0200rtjure(~rtjure@bras-79-132-17-74.comnet.bg)
2021-10-07 12:44:26 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 12:44:31 +0200 <olibiera> raizes a b c = (r1, r2)
2021-10-07 12:44:31 +0200 <olibiera> where r1 = ((-b) + sqrt(b * b - 4 * a * c)) / (2 * a) r2 = ((-b) - sqrt(b * b - 4 * a * c)) / (2 * a)
2021-10-07 12:44:39 +0200 <olibiera> raizes 1.0 1.0 1.0
2021-10-07 12:44:40 +0200hiruji`(~hiruji@72.74.190.75)
2021-10-07 12:44:53 +0200 <olibiera> how can i use the bot
2021-10-07 12:45:02 +0200 <maerwald> PM
2021-10-07 12:45:10 +0200 <_________> > "How to use bot?"
2021-10-07 12:45:12 +0200 <lambdabot> "How to use bot?"
2021-10-07 12:45:14 +0200hiruji(~hiruji@user/hiruji) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 12:45:17 +0200 <olibiera> oh
2021-10-07 12:45:24 +0200 <maerwald> please don't post random code in the channel, use PM for it
2021-10-07 12:45:35 +0200 <olibiera> i have a question
2021-10-07 12:45:55 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250)
2021-10-07 12:46:05 +0200 <olibiera> why doing raizes 1.0 1.0 1.0 it returns (NaN,NaN)?
2021-10-07 12:46:53 +0200 <olibiera> > raizes a b c = (r1, r2)
2021-10-07 12:46:54 +0200 <olibiera> where r1 = ((-b) + sqrt(b * b - 4 * a * c)) / (2 * a) r2 = ((-b) - sqrt(b * b - 4 * a * c)) / (2 * a)
2021-10-07 12:46:55 +0200 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:14: error: parse error on input ‘=’
2021-10-07 12:48:26 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 12:48:51 +0200hiruji`(~hiruji@72.74.190.75) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 12:48:52 +0200 <_________> olibiera: because b²-4ac is less than 0
2021-10-07 12:49:24 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-10-07 12:49:29 +0200 <olibiera> > got it thx
2021-10-07 12:49:31 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2021-10-07 12:49:31 +0200 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: got :: t0 -> t1 -> t
2021-10-07 12:49:31 +0200 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant one of these:
2021-10-07 12:55:04 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 12:55:14 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-10-07 12:56:21 +0200Morrow(~Morrow@bzq-110-168-31-106.red.bezeqint.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 13:00:19 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 13:00:39 +0200geranim0(~geranim0@modemcable242.171-178-173.mc.videotron.ca)
2021-10-07 13:00:42 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
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2021-10-07 13:06:25 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-10-07 13:11:39 +0200echoone(~echoone@2a02:8109:a1c0:5d05:8012:cb01:f26e:d32c)
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2021-10-07 13:12:00 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net)
2021-10-07 13:12:08 +0200 <echoone> In the language of recursion schemes, catamorphisms correspond to Church encodings and paramorphisms correspond to Parigot encodings. There does not seems to a recursion scheme corresponding to Scott encodings though. Why is that?
2021-10-07 13:12:25 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-10-07 13:13:49 +0200olibiera(~olibiera@194.117.40.220) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-10-07 13:14:04 +0200 <opqdonut> scott-encodings are non-recursive
2021-10-07 13:14:57 +0200 <echoone> That's true.
2021-10-07 13:15:09 +0200 <opqdonut> church encodind represents a recursive datatype with its catamorphism, scott encodig represents a recursive datatype with its destructor
2021-10-07 13:15:26 +0200 <opqdonut> church/catamorphism is fold, scott is uncons/case-of
2021-10-07 13:15:27 +0200phma(~phma@host-67-44-208-17.hnremote.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 13:15:32 +0200 <echoone> That's right.
2021-10-07 13:16:02 +0200phma(~phma@host-67-44-209-44.hnremote.net)
2021-10-07 13:16:10 +0200 <echoone> Maybe if we had something called "elimantor schemes", it would show up there.
2021-10-07 13:16:17 +0200 <echoone> *eliminator
2021-10-07 13:16:19 +0200 <opqdonut> yeah
2021-10-07 13:16:40 +0200 <opqdonut> haskell has some eliminators like maybe and either but it's not a commonly used pattern
2021-10-07 13:17:11 +0200 <opqdonut> case-of is usually more ergonomic
2021-10-07 13:17:24 +0200 <echoone> Yes. I find that also to be the case.
2021-10-07 13:17:38 +0200 <echoone> Except when I want to write something point-free.
2021-10-07 13:17:42 +0200 <opqdonut> :)
2021-10-07 13:18:27 +0200 <echoone> Alright. Thanks for the input.
2021-10-07 13:20:05 +0200Teacup(~teacup@user/teacup) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-10-07 13:23:40 +0200jmfcomo1(~jmfcomo@174.34.39.213.reverse.socket.net) ()
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2021-10-07 13:30:37 +0200 <libertyprime> "catamorphism" reminded me that my cat isnt home yet :'( i hope she's ok
2021-10-07 13:33:01 +0200darkstardevx(~darkstard@c-24-21-53-33.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 13:33:39 +0200 <echoone> Does anyone know of attempts of doing recursion schemes using containers?
2021-10-07 13:33:44 +0200darkstardevx(~darkstard@c-24-21-53-33.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2021-10-07 13:34:21 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2021-10-07 13:35:50 +0200 <merijn> Not quite sure what you mean by that?
2021-10-07 13:40:41 +0200 <maerwald> how do you check what code TH produces again?
2021-10-07 13:40:56 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 13:41:45 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2021-10-07 13:41:56 +0200 <merijn> -ddump-splices
2021-10-07 13:41:56 +0200 <echoone> By containers, I mean these guys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_(type_theory)
2021-10-07 13:42:01 +0200chomwitt(~chomwitt@94.66.61.137)
2021-10-07 13:42:02 +0200 <merijn> Or something along those lines
2021-10-07 13:42:18 +0200 <merijn> echoone: Ah...probably helps to clarify you're not referring to
2021-10-07 13:42:21 +0200 <merijn> @hackage containers
2021-10-07 13:42:21 +0200 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/containers
2021-10-07 13:42:23 +0200 <merijn> :p
2021-10-07 13:42:35 +0200 <echoone> Indeed. Sorry about that.
2021-10-07 13:42:46 +0200 <merijn> I was very confused for a bit
2021-10-07 13:43:02 +0200 <merijn> I am, possibly, even more confused looking at that wikipedia page, but hey!
2021-10-07 13:43:53 +0200 <maerwald> merijn: where do they get dumped?
2021-10-07 13:44:48 +0200 <merijn> maerwald: In the build dir, so if you're using cabal under dist-newstyle. I think there's a flag to override the output dir in GHC, though
2021-10-07 13:54:35 +0200 <maerwald> if you put it as GHC_OPTIONS in the module, it's stderr
2021-10-07 13:54:41 +0200 <maerwald> can't be bothered to look for the files
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2021-10-07 14:53:29 +0200Maxdamantus(~Maxdamant@user/maxdamantus)
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2021-10-07 14:59:06 +0200 <kuribas> is there an easy permutations function that I can copy?
2021-10-07 14:59:41 +0200 <kuribas> oh Data.List.permutations :)
2021-10-07 14:59:44 +0200 <kuribas> :t permutations
2021-10-07 14:59:45 +0200 <lambdabot> [a] -> [[a]]
2021-10-07 15:00:18 +0200ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
2021-10-07 15:02:15 +0200Amras(~Amras@user/Amras)
2021-10-07 15:02:20 +0200Inoperable(~PLAYER_1@fancydata.science)
2021-10-07 15:03:23 +0200 <maerwald> dminuoso: https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/jobs/811151 nix-cache busted (for whatever reason) and now it's compiling random stuff, probably for hours ;)
2021-10-07 15:03:52 +0200 <maerwald> it's a plague
2021-10-07 15:04:27 +0200fuzzypixelz(~fuzzypixe@eth-west-pareq2-46-193-4-100.wb.wifirst.net)
2021-10-07 15:04:28 +0200chomwitt(~chomwitt@94.66.61.137)
2021-10-07 15:07:28 +0200 <maerwald> oddly, never happened on ubuntu :p
2021-10-07 15:09:44 +0200 <jackdk> I am trying to test some amazonka patches against https://github.com/gilt/kms-s3 . I created a cabal.project file, listed my commit sha in source-repository-package stanzas, and despite `cabal build` downloading and building the amazonka libs, they aren't found when it starts compiling files from `kms-s3`. This is despite `amazonka` being listed in`build-depends`
2021-10-07 15:10:49 +0200 <jackdk> This is the cabal.project I'm using. https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/9q3l4xUX/cabal.project
2021-10-07 15:12:20 +0200 <Hecate> maerwald: do you think it's time to revive cabal-cache maybe?
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2021-10-07 15:12:46 +0200 <maerwald> this is a problem with darwin sucking so hard that no one knows how to make it work without nix
2021-10-07 15:14:57 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@2607:fb90:1d3b:cd26:310d:742c:3337:de71)
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2021-10-07 15:21:41 +0200 <maerwald> dminuoso: and now I bumped nixpkgs because the cache is busted and guess what... my entire config is broken
2021-10-07 15:21:55 +0200 <maerwald> so already an hour wasted
2021-10-07 15:22:19 +0200libertyprime(~libertypr@118.149.86.94) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-10-07 15:24:57 +0200alzgh(~alzgh@user/alzgh)
2021-10-07 15:25:27 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald: Which nixpkgs do you use exactly?
2021-10-07 15:25:48 +0200 <maerwald> some random hash?
2021-10-07 15:25:52 +0200 <dminuoso> https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/blob/master/.gitlab/shell.nix contains a commented out reference to angerman/nixpkgs, is that the one?
2021-10-07 15:26:11 +0200 <dminuoso> No I meant, is this the official nixpkgs, or some fork of it?
2021-10-07 15:26:13 +0200 <maerwald> https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/blob/master/.gitlab-ci.yml#L169
2021-10-07 15:27:39 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> looks like a fork
2021-10-07 15:28:01 +0200Gurkenglas(~Gurkengla@dslb-002-203-144-204.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 15:28:20 +0200 <angerman> It’s a fork with a binary AArch64 ghc. Recent nixpkgs have those as well thanks to domen.
2021-10-07 15:28:24 +0200 <dminuoso> Yeah no clue, you're using someone elses nixpkgs - so its hard to say why cachix might be missing store paths for this fork..
2021-10-07 15:28:29 +0200 <dminuoso> Ah
2021-10-07 15:29:09 +0200 <dminuoso> Well, you're probably better off using the official nixpkgs because then you have the guaranteed hydra > cachix workflow.
2021-10-07 15:29:10 +0200dschrempf(~dominik@070-207.dynamic.dsl.fonira.net)
2021-10-07 15:33:19 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
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2021-10-07 15:35:27 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald: but presumably the cache was hit before. I just checked on matrix and mailing lists, it seems there's no cache retention
2021-10-07 15:35:31 +0200 <dminuoso> So this is curious indeed.
2021-10-07 15:35:50 +0200max22-(~maxime@2a01cb088335980046e4815fde386135.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2021-10-07 15:37:48 +0200 <angerman> maerwald: is building this on the ghc ci infra. The M1s are fairly disk space constrained and GC fairly often. they also reboot once a day to clear out apples x86_64 Rosetta caches.
2021-10-07 15:38:46 +0200 <dminuoso> Ah yes, I recall that story about rosetta caches..
2021-10-07 15:39:16 +0200 <dminuoso> angerman: So what you're saying is, you need some big 16TiB disks connected via USB 3.0 to run the store on?
2021-10-07 15:39:36 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:216:8200:d457:9189:7843:1dbd)
2021-10-07 15:39:38 +0200 <dminuoso> Maybe 16TiB is a bit overkill, evenb
2021-10-07 15:39:41 +0200 <angerman> Something like that.
2021-10-07 15:40:35 +0200 <angerman> It’s probably going to be some NAS for caching. But it’s probably going to take a few weeks to have that all sorted.
2021-10-07 15:42:27 +0200 <maerwald[m]> And now the nix build failed
2021-10-07 15:42:28 +0200 <maerwald[m]> Gg
2021-10-07 15:42:36 +0200 <maerwald[m]> Such reproducible
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2021-10-07 15:53:46 +0200 <Drew[m]> I'm trying to revive a dead library. Is there any reason not to jump directly to cabal file spec 3.0 or above?
2021-10-07 15:54:40 +0200 <Drew[m]> If a user's tools are up to date, they should all be compatible, right?
2021-10-07 15:55:21 +0200 <fendor[m]> you can lower if someone complains, but otherwise I start at a high cabal file spec version, too
2021-10-07 15:55:27 +0200 <fendor[m]> you get such nice features
2021-10-07 15:55:46 +0200 <Drew[m]> Yeah I really want that sweet set notation
2021-10-07 15:56:25 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald[m]: honestly, you're not even using nix to build it..
2021-10-07 15:56:43 +0200 <dminuoso> So not sure why you feel entitled to deterministic builds if you just build inside a shell.. :p
2021-10-07 15:56:55 +0200Lorra(~lorenzo@2001:a61:be4:201:ad0b:4d75:e3f6:65ba)
2021-10-07 15:57:08 +0200 <Drew[m]> Doesn't the latest version of cabal (for now) still support GHC versions since before GHC 8?
2021-10-07 15:57:25 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-10-07 15:57:25 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Changing host)
2021-10-07 15:57:25 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2021-10-07 15:57:32 +0200 <merijn> Yes
2021-10-07 15:57:46 +0200 <merijn> Cabal supports everything from something like early 7.x onwards
2021-10-07 15:57:50 +0200 <merijn> 7.2 or 7.4 I think?
2021-10-07 15:58:50 +0200 <merijn> Drew[m]: Cabal only drops support for (using) old GHCs when forced
2021-10-07 15:59:21 +0200norias(~jaredm@c-98-219-195-163.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
2021-10-07 15:59:24 +0200 <maerwald[m]> dminuoso: what?
2021-10-07 15:59:25 +0200 <Drew[m]> Yeah I found the RFC on dropping support for GHC 7
2021-10-07 15:59:47 +0200 <maerwald[m]> dminuoso: creating the nix shell failed
2021-10-07 15:59:49 +0200 <merijn> Drew[m]: Note there's 2 forms of support
2021-10-07 15:59:59 +0200 <maerwald[m]> So yes, it's nix
2021-10-07 16:00:00 +0200 <merijn> Drew[m]: 1) "can you build Cabal with old GHCs?"
2021-10-07 16:00:10 +0200 <merijn> Drew[m]: 2) "can you use Cabal to build stuff with old GHCs"
2021-10-07 16:00:29 +0200 <merijn> Drew[m]: There was recently an accepted proposal to drop GHC 7 support for case 1
2021-10-07 16:00:38 +0200 <merijn> i.e. you won't be able to compile Cabal using old GHCs
2021-10-07 16:00:51 +0200 <merijn> There is (currently) no plan to drop support for 7 for case 2
2021-10-07 16:00:56 +0200 <Drew[m]> Ah, makes sense
2021-10-07 16:01:04 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald[m]: in a gitlab ci job there?
2021-10-07 16:01:13 +0200 <merijn> Since there's no reason why Cabal should be build with the GHC version it uses
2021-10-07 16:01:32 +0200doyougnu(~user@c-73-25-202-122.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2021-10-07 16:03:08 +0200 <maerwald[m]> dminuoso: yes
2021-10-07 16:03:26 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald[m]: Which one?
2021-10-07 16:04:02 +0200yinghua(~yinghua@2800:2121:1400:900:1cc4:2cdf:e341:3f10)
2021-10-07 16:04:32 +0200 <dminuoso> Are you talking about this one? https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/jobs/811215#L31
2021-10-07 16:06:45 +0200robosexual(~spaceoyst@88.85.216.62) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-10-07 16:06:59 +0200 <maerwald[m]> No
2021-10-07 16:07:26 +0200 <maerwald[m]> That's the one where the config is busted after update
2021-10-07 16:07:40 +0200Morrow(~Morrow@147.161.8.127)
2021-10-07 16:09:37 +0200timCF(~timCF@200-149-20-81.sta.estpak.ee)
2021-10-07 16:09:52 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
2021-10-07 16:11:45 +0200Heisen(~Heisen@77.240.67.20)
2021-10-07 16:13:10 +0200Heisen(~Heisen@77.240.67.20) (Client Quit)
2021-10-07 16:13:14 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2021-10-07 16:13:55 +0200Psybur(~Psybur@mobile-166-170-32-197.mycingular.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 16:14:57 +0200Farzad(~FarzadBek@151.238.114.149)
2021-10-07 16:15:53 +0200 <kuribas> who do you run ghci on the test directory?
2021-10-07 16:18:55 +0200agoraphobic_(~agoraphob@ip11-173.bon.riksnet.se) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb2+b1 - https://znc.in)
2021-10-07 16:19:24 +0200fuzzypixelz(~fuzzypixe@eth-west-pareq2-46-193-4-100.wb.wifirst.net) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-10-07 16:21:13 +0200agoraphobic(~agoraphob@ip11-173.bon.riksnet.se)
2021-10-07 16:21:34 +0200 <dminuoso> kuribas: Think that english is slightly garbled.
2021-10-07 16:21:35 +0200Psybur(~Psybur@mobile-166-170-32-197.mycingular.net)
2021-10-07 16:21:47 +0200 <kuribas> s/who/how
2021-10-07 16:22:14 +0200timCF(~timCF@200-149-20-81.sta.estpak.ee) (Quit: leaving)
2021-10-07 16:22:17 +0200 <maerwald> cabal repl --enable-tests?
2021-10-07 16:24:22 +0200 <Drew[m]> Is it reasonable to write a constraint like this?
2021-10-07 16:24:23 +0200 <Drew[m]> some-package (>= 0.15 && < 0.18) || ^>= 0.18
2021-10-07 16:24:27 +0200 <Drew[m]> I want the semantics of ^>= without having to mention every version between the earliest tested version and the latest.
2021-10-07 16:24:47 +0200 <kuribas> maerwald: thanks that works :) Now only if emacs had a way to run that...
2021-10-07 16:24:52 +0200timCF(~timCF@254-149-20-81.sta.estpak.ee)
2021-10-07 16:26:08 +0200Gurkenglas(~Gurkengla@dslb-002-203-144-204.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
2021-10-07 16:26:31 +0200 <timCF> Hello! I have a question about `bracket` function. There are multiple versions of it from different packages, for example `base` or `safe-exceptions` or `unliftio`. What's the difference and which one I should use?
2021-10-07 16:26:53 +0200chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc18:b400:12c3:7bff:fe6d:d374)
2021-10-07 16:27:11 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:5214:3f00:3f98:aae6:4554:8065) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2021-10-07 16:28:33 +0200 <merijn> the unliftio and safe-exceptions function try to deal with async exceptions and lifting monad stacks through it. Whether their way of dealing with those is sensible...depends on your point of view and what you want
2021-10-07 16:30:24 +0200abarbu(~user@c-66-31-23-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: No route to host)
2021-10-07 16:33:41 +0200 <timCF> merijn: so it's basically `base` version, but it just can run in any monad which implements some classes (for example UnliftIO class)?
2021-10-07 16:34:22 +0200acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d0c703cb15c01e6432704cfc21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-10-07 16:34:46 +0200 <timCF> maybe you know is there some principle difference between `safe-exceptions` version and `unliftio` version (except different class monad should implement)?
2021-10-07 16:35:39 +0200dfg(dfg@2600:3c00::f03c:92ff:feb4:be75)
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2021-10-07 16:38:28 +0200byorgey(~byorgey@155.138.238.211)
2021-10-07 16:39:31 +0200 <merijn> timCF: safe-exceptions handles async exceptions differently
2021-10-07 16:39:40 +0200 <merijn> Whether it should is a matter of personal opinion
2021-10-07 16:39:42 +0200 <merijn> Or rather
2021-10-07 16:39:53 +0200 <merijn> It *tries* to handle async exceptions differently
2021-10-07 16:40:03 +0200 <merijn> but that only really works if you use the safe-exceptions library everywhere
2021-10-07 16:40:41 +0200dudek(~dudek@185.150.236.103)
2021-10-07 16:41:57 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250)
2021-10-07 16:43:29 +0200 <timCF> Ehh, I'm writing in Haskell more than a year, but async exceptions are still pain in a butt. As far as I understood from the source code `unliftio` catches async exception, doing uninterrupable cleanup and then throwing it again. Not so sure about other 2 bracket versions.
2021-10-07 16:47:58 +0200 <merijn> async exception are always a pain in the butt
2021-10-07 16:48:19 +0200 <merijn> We haven't found any way (in any language) to do async exceptions well
2021-10-07 16:49:08 +0200 <dminuoso> timCF: The mind model of unliftio is that you cannot recover from an async exception using its interface.
2021-10-07 16:49:24 +0200 <dminuoso> Not that its not possible, but you have to be very explicit should you ever want this.
2021-10-07 16:51:45 +0200 <dminuoso> The state with `mask` is even more annoying
2021-10-07 16:53:27 +0200 <dminuoso> Rather than calling it `interruptibleMask` and `mask`, they called them `mask` and `uninterruptibleMask`, such that it's not dead obvious from `mask` that its still interruptible in some situations.
2021-10-07 16:53:35 +0200 <ldlework> i mean try { await foo(); } catch () { //... } is ok
2021-10-07 16:54:09 +0200 <dminuoso> ldlework: Its not okay in any language. The moment you allow for this, resource management becomes near impossible to do right.
2021-10-07 16:54:22 +0200 <dminuoso> Or with the right masking you risk dead locking
2021-10-07 16:54:46 +0200 <timCF> dminuoso: so to do cleanup **and** recovery I should do something like `catch (bracket x y z) h`?
2021-10-07 16:54:57 +0200 <dminuoso> timCF: well no. so here's the thing:
2021-10-07 16:55:22 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
2021-10-07 16:55:29 +0200 <merijn> ldlework: THat's not really async exceptions
2021-10-07 16:55:39 +0200 <merijn> ldlework: async exceptions are more like posix signals
2021-10-07 16:55:53 +0200DNH(~DNH@2a02:8108:1100:16d8:a11a:d19d:8c20:4068) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-10-07 16:55:55 +0200 <dminuoso> Except posix signals require cooperation to receive them... :p
2021-10-07 16:56:14 +0200 <dminuoso> And the ones that dont, you cant recover from anyway
2021-10-07 16:56:14 +0200 <merijn> ldlework: Your example is just "an exception that happened in a primitive that happens to be called async"
2021-10-07 16:57:25 +0200 <dminuoso> timCF: bracket before after thing = mask $ \restore -> do a <- before; r <- restore (thing a) `onException` after a; _ <- after a; return r
2021-10-07 16:57:50 +0200 <dminuoso> timCF: So if you just stare at it, naively you might say "oh this is great. so my resource acquisition and release is in a critical section, I cant get interrupted" right?
2021-10-07 16:58:39 +0200rtjure(~rtjure@bras-79-132-17-74.comnet.bg) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 16:58:53 +0200 <dminuoso> That is, if we assume mask to mask async exceptions.
2021-10-07 16:59:02 +0200 <timCF> dminuoso: looks ok then, yes
2021-10-07 16:59:08 +0200 <dminuoso> timCF: Except it's not true!
2021-10-07 16:59:20 +0200 <dminuoso> You *can* get interrupted by async exceptions in some situations.
2021-10-07 17:00:11 +0200 <dminuoso> Which makes for a hilarious mind model. Once you're in whats called "an interruptible operation", async exceptions can pierce your mask and interrupt you.
2021-10-07 17:00:31 +0200 <dminuoso> So whether brackets protects you from async exceptions really depends on what you're doing inside the resource/release stage.
2021-10-07 17:00:48 +0200hnOsmium0001(uid453710@id-453710.hampstead.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 17:00:58 +0200 <timCF> dminuoso: So `unliftio` version fixes this?
2021-10-07 17:01:16 +0200 <dminuoso> Well "fixes" fsvo of fixes.
2021-10-07 17:01:18 +0200DNH(~DNH@2a02:8108:1100:16d8:a11a:d19d:8c20:4068)
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2021-10-07 17:01:22 +0200 <dminuoso> timCF: Lets have a look at why this is
2021-10-07 17:01:48 +0200 <dminuoso> The main concern now is: what is an "interruptible" action. Well, most IO for starters.
2021-10-07 17:02:04 +0200 <dminuoso> Or rather some IO.
2021-10-07 17:03:23 +0200 <dminuoso> There are places where receiving async exceptions is needed due to the internal implementation. Say `takeMVar`
2021-10-07 17:04:06 +0200 <dminuoso> So if you had something like `mask $ \restore -> do { a <- takeMVar m; .... }` this could actually dead lock if `mask` fully masked off async exceptions.
2021-10-07 17:04:18 +0200 <dminuoso> But due to the way things work, a lot of things happen to be "interruptible"
2021-10-07 17:05:45 +0200 <timCF> dminuoso: So if I'm using `unliftio` version - I should be extremely aware of things I'm using on cleanup function?
2021-10-07 17:06:27 +0200 <dminuoso> timCF: Heh well so unliftio uses uninterruptibleMask, which properly masks async exceptions.. except now you have to be extremely careful to not deadlock!
2021-10-07 17:06:39 +0200 <dminuoso> Say if you used unliftio mask/bracket, and used takeMVar, you'd deadlock
2021-10-07 17:07:05 +0200 <timCF> dminuoso: but with `safe-exceptions` version it's not the case I guess, as well as `base` version?
2021-10-07 17:07:35 +0200 <dminuoso> timCF: the safe-exceptions version is the same
2021-10-07 17:08:46 +0200 <dminuoso> or at least in that respect.
2021-10-07 17:09:06 +0200 <timCF> dminuoso: ok, so unliftio and safe-exceptions are full-masked (just using different monad classes) and base version - is not fully masked
2021-10-07 17:09:09 +0200 <dminuoso> That is, both unliftio and safe-exceptions use the interruptibleMask inside bracket
2021-10-07 17:09:15 +0200 <dminuoso> well they're not fully masked
2021-10-07 17:09:32 +0200 <dminuoso> its rather, that some of their primitives use uninterruptibleMask rather than mask
2021-10-07 17:09:36 +0200 <dminuoso> See following issues:
2021-10-07 17:09:46 +0200 <dminuoso> https://github.com/fpco/safe-exceptions/issues/3
2021-10-07 17:09:47 +0200 <dminuoso> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/18899
2021-10-07 17:10:19 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 17:11:21 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 17:12:14 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250)
2021-10-07 17:13:03 +0200 <dminuoso> timCF: A far more pressing difference is that base lets you accidentally recover from async exceptions.
2021-10-07 17:13:13 +0200 <timCF> dminuoso: thanks! But anyway, if I really know that cleanup function is safe, but I still want to recover, is `catch (bracket a c x) h` way to go? As far as I understood all brackets by design should re-throw exception? It's a bit confusing because not reflected in a types
2021-10-07 17:14:57 +0200 <dminuoso> timCF: and both safe-exceptions, and in the "newer version of it" in unliftio, both by design dont let you recover from async exceptions implicitly/by accident. All the primitives that allow you to do cleanup (say onException) will still operate on async exceptions, but something like catch will not.
2021-10-07 17:16:25 +0200 <dminuoso> timCF: And yes, this would work.
2021-10-07 17:18:38 +0200lortabac(~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:1dfb:18c4:d7d4:8722) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
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2021-10-07 17:24:20 +0200 <timCF> dminuoso: this a bit remings me Erlang process exit signals, like :kill will allow process to terminate, but :brutal_kill signal will not. Brobably similar way it works in Linux in general
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2021-10-07 17:41:13 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:7419:a622:3a5a:ee04)
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2021-10-07 17:44:54 +0200arjun(~Srain@user/arjun)
2021-10-07 17:45:26 +0200 <arjun> so i've been helping a friend, and that involves me writing clojure
2021-10-07 17:45:49 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-10-07 17:45:54 +0200 <arjun> didn't realize how much i missed the type system untill it's gone
2021-10-07 17:46:11 +0200m1dnight(~christoph@188.ip-51-91-158.eu) (Quit: WeeChat 3.1)
2021-10-07 17:46:46 +0200m1dnight(~christoph@188.ip-51-91-158.eu)
2021-10-07 17:46:55 +0200 <maerwald> clojure will never die out I think
2021-10-07 17:47:07 +0200 <maerwald> not many people love it
2021-10-07 17:47:13 +0200 <maerwald> but those who do, do so radically
2021-10-07 17:47:19 +0200 <maerwald> it's scary
2021-10-07 17:47:21 +0200 <arjun> so, like emacs
2021-10-07 17:49:01 +0200 <arjun> you know any scary people maerwald ? : O
2021-10-07 17:49:39 +0200 <arjun> scary clojure people&
2021-10-07 17:49:43 +0200 <arjun> people*
2021-10-07 17:49:44 +0200 <arjun> ffs
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2021-10-07 17:54:08 +0200 <kuribas> What's the command to load a test file into ghci using cabal or stack?
2021-10-07 17:54:56 +0200 <sclv> `:load` or `:add`
2021-10-07 17:55:13 +0200 <sclv> that's just a straight ghci command, regardless of cabal or stack or whatever invokes it
2021-10-07 17:55:31 +0200rkrishnan(~user@2402:e280:215c:2cd:93af:e0ef:60d6:2dc5) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2021-10-07 17:57:32 +0200[itchyjunk](~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-10-07 17:59:22 +0200 <kuribas> sclv: how would that know I want the test modules?
2021-10-07 17:59:35 +0200 <sclv> well you have to pass it explicitly those modules
2021-10-07 17:59:51 +0200 <sclv> i'm not sure what exactly you're asking to do
2021-10-07 18:00:04 +0200 <sclv> load all the modules of the test stanza from a cabal file if you don't have them loaded?
2021-10-07 18:00:17 +0200 <kuribas> :l tests/ActList.hs worked...
2021-10-07 18:00:23 +0200 <sclv> great
2021-10-07 18:00:50 +0200 <kuribas> sadly not from emacs...
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2021-10-07 18:03:07 +0200fuzzypixelz(~fuzzypixe@eth-west-pareq2-46-193-4-100.wb.wifirst.net)
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2021-10-07 18:04:09 +0200kupi(uid212005@id-212005.hampstead.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 18:04:34 +0200 <kupi> hi, is there a way in haskell to generate code like this: https://gist.github.com/theqp/9a450ffdc6dbb3de77a275c8debfb1eb
2021-10-07 18:04:37 +0200 <kupi> to this: https://gist.github.com/theqp/bf5061b6e9202b70a97133888e770550
2021-10-07 18:04:41 +0200 <kupi> at compile time?
2021-10-07 18:05:21 +0200 <kuribas> ugh, why is the documentation for hspec smallcheck so terrible?
2021-10-07 18:05:30 +0200 <kuribas> Nothing on how to change the depth.
2021-10-07 18:05:50 +0200shapr`(~user@pool-100-36-247-68.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2021-10-07 18:05:53 +0200 <kuribas> Not even a google search shows anything useful.
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2021-10-07 18:07:05 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
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2021-10-07 18:07:24 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@n8vwdu04eps78g521-2.v6.elisa-mobile.fi)
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2021-10-07 18:08:37 +0200dmwit(~dmwit@pool-173-73-185-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2021-10-07 18:08:51 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250)
2021-10-07 18:09:36 +0200 <kuribas> "The packages http://hackage.haskell.org/package/tasty-smallcheck and http://hackage.haskell.org/package/hspec-smallcheck provide integration with Tasty and HSpec, two popular testing frameworks."
2021-10-07 18:09:43 +0200 <kuribas> Not even a little example of how to use it.
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2021-10-07 18:22:09 +0200[exa](exa@user/exa/x-3587197) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 18:22:17 +0200benin03693230163(~benin@183.82.176.241) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 18:22:26 +0200typedfern_(~Typedfern@171.red-83-51-60.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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2021-10-07 18:22:33 +0200berberman(~berberman@user/berberman)
2021-10-07 18:24:04 +0200Cajun(~Cajun@user/cajun) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-10-07 18:24:38 +0200[exa](exa@srv3.blesmrt.net)
2021-10-07 18:28:24 +0200absence_absence
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2021-10-07 18:31:44 +0200 <absence> anyone know how i can make this TH code compile? https://pastebin.com/zEjN3TiL
2021-10-07 18:32:12 +0200jjhoo(~jahakala@user/jjhoo)
2021-10-07 18:32:26 +0200azeem(~azeem@emp-183-4.eduroam.uu.se) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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2021-10-07 18:34:28 +0200ub(~Thunderbi@77.119.205.6.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
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2021-10-07 18:34:49 +0200shapr`shapr
2021-10-07 18:34:52 +0200typedfern_(~Typedfern@171.red-83-51-60.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
2021-10-07 18:35:09 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-10-07 18:35:09 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Changing host)
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2021-10-07 18:35:16 +0200Tisoxin(~ikosit@user/ikosit)
2021-10-07 18:35:46 +0200 <dsal> Does anyone here use persistent and can help convince me it's a good idea?
2021-10-07 18:35:52 +0200Franciman(~Franciman@mx1.fracta.dev)
2021-10-07 18:35:58 +0200zfnmxt(~zfnmxtzfn@2001:470:69fc:105::2b32)
2021-10-07 18:36:15 +0200reza[m](~rezaphone@2001:470:69fc:105::3eda)
2021-10-07 18:37:13 +0200voldial(~user@195.179.201.175)
2021-10-07 18:39:19 +0200reddishblue[m](~reddishbl@2001:470:69fc:105::21eb)
2021-10-07 18:39:50 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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2021-10-07 18:40:00 +0200 <byorgey> absence: does it help if you add A(..) to the import list on line 12?
2021-10-07 18:40:11 +0200hjulle[m](~hjullemat@2001:470:69fc:105::1dd)
2021-10-07 18:40:28 +0200slack1256(~slack1256@45.4.2.52)
2021-10-07 18:41:27 +0200 <absence> byorgey: unfortunately not
2021-10-07 18:41:35 +0200ServerStatsDisco(~serversta@2001:470:69fc:105::1a)
2021-10-07 18:42:05 +0200 <byorgey> absence: hmm, I don't know then
2021-10-07 18:42:57 +0200sm(~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
2021-10-07 18:43:17 +0200peddie(~peddie@2001:470:69fc:105::25d)
2021-10-07 18:43:17 +0200 <monochrom> I wonder if it is one of those TH's "declaration groups" business.
2021-10-07 18:43:25 +0200 <absence> i can work around it by pattern matching on the A instead of using the accessor, but it seems weird that it shouldn't work
2021-10-07 18:43:49 +0200ixlun(~ixlun@2001:470:69fc:105::41b3)
2021-10-07 18:43:52 +0200wysteriary[m](~wysteriar@2001:470:69fc:105::a42e)
2021-10-07 18:43:58 +0200soft(~soft-matr@2001:470:69fc:105::c75)
2021-10-07 18:44:14 +0200oak-(~oakuniver@2001:470:69fc:105::fcd)
2021-10-07 18:44:18 +0200 <int-e> meh, missing extensions, missing imports
2021-10-07 18:44:36 +0200Christoph[m](~hpotsirhc@2001:470:69fc:105::2ff8)
2021-10-07 18:44:38 +0200fcortesi(~fcortesi@2001:470:69fc:105::f3a9)
2021-10-07 18:45:13 +0200 <monochrom> And yeah it's a bit difficult to reproduce the error given non-self-contained example. :)
2021-10-07 18:45:15 +0200hsek[m](~hsekmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::d18f)
2021-10-07 18:45:56 +0200wonko(~wjc@2a01:e0a:4fa:a50:5bdf:2e17:5922:f711)
2021-10-07 18:46:36 +0200 <absence> sorry about that, i copied it out from a bigger project
2021-10-07 18:46:38 +0200 <int-e> absence: it compiles with 8.10 and 9.0?
2021-10-07 18:48:20 +0200 <absence> int-e: oh really? i'm on 8.10.7.. perhaps there's some unfortunate interaction with any of the other stuff in the project i copied the code from
2021-10-07 18:48:45 +0200 <int-e> *checks* 8.10 is 8.10.7
2021-10-07 18:49:38 +0200Tavi[m](~factoidde@2001:470:69fc:105::1:819)
2021-10-07 18:50:37 +0200Codaraxis(~Codaraxis@user/codaraxis) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 18:50:38 +0200 <absence> int-e: thanks for the info, it's good to know it should've worked. must be something weird about the project, i'll fiddle around with it
2021-10-07 18:50:38 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@n8vwdu04eps78g521-2.v6.elisa-mobile.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 18:50:53 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
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2021-10-07 18:50:53 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe)
2021-10-07 18:51:11 +0200 <int-e> absence: I shouldn't be upset but I am a little... I mean, your paste lies.
2021-10-07 18:51:31 +0200 <monochrom> On bad days I would be upset too.
2021-10-07 18:51:42 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a8-176.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-10-07 18:52:06 +0200ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-10-07 18:52:13 +0200 <monochrom> Whenever you see me harping again "see, programmers are unscientific", that's when I'm upset about this. :)
2021-10-07 18:52:23 +0200kevin[m]1(~pnotequal@2001:470:69fc:105::a54)
2021-10-07 19:01:12 +0200 <danso> i find gabriel gonzalez's post "scrap your typeclasses" really informative and compelling: https://www.haskellforall.com/2012/05/scrap-your-type-classes.html
2021-10-07 19:01:23 +0200 <danso> has there been much follow-up discussion to this, beyond the comments there?
2021-10-07 19:01:47 +0200 <danso> specifically, i'm wondering how haskell could support polymorphic operators without typeclasses
2021-10-07 19:02:46 +0200 <monochrom> I think "Edit: My opinion on type classes has mellowed since I wrote this post" sums it up.
2021-10-07 19:03:26 +0200 <danso> i saw that line, but there's no information there
2021-10-07 19:03:57 +0200 <monochrom> In practice, only beginners, and only the subset of beginners coming from OOP, go overboard with classes, and would need to know this alternative.
2021-10-07 19:04:59 +0200 <monochrom> Ah, I guess I have a life-long experience to help me understand the weight of that one single sentence.
2021-10-07 19:05:07 +0200emf(~emf@2620:10d:c090:400::5:fdfa)
2021-10-07 19:05:39 +0200 <dminuoso> Honestly typeclasses are weird in that it's not quite obvious how or when they are useful.
2021-10-07 19:05:56 +0200 <dminuoso> And it's really difficult to give precise advise to newcomers when to use them or when not.
2021-10-07 19:06:07 +0200 <monochrom> When I was young and arrogant and thought I knew it all, I wrote similar articles too. Articles that say "this thing that everyone does is overrated. here is the simpler better alternative I use."
2021-10-07 19:06:56 +0200 <dminuoso> So now you are old, grumpy, still think you know better than your students, but instead you hold lectures now?
2021-10-07 19:06:57 +0200 <int-e> danso: if your code relies in instantiation a lot (as printf type of things do) it'll be a minor nightmare to use
2021-10-07 19:07:04 +0200 <int-e> danso: you'll be like _printf (make'PrintF'Double (make'PrintF'Float (make'PrintF'String (make'PrintF'Base)))) "%s %f %f" "abc" 1.0 42.0
2021-10-07 19:07:14 +0200 <int-e> Which is kind of what GHC does under the hood when finding the PrintFArg (or whatever that class is called) instance to use for printf "%s %f %f" "abc" 1.0 42.0 :: IO ()
2021-10-07 19:07:24 +0200 <dminuoso> monochrom: Seems like not much has changed. :p
2021-10-07 19:07:29 +0200 <monochrom> Haha
2021-10-07 19:07:51 +0200 <monochrom> I don't think I know better than my students.
2021-10-07 19:07:59 +0200fuzzypixelz(~fuzzypixe@eth-west-pareq2-46-193-4-100.wb.wifirst.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-10-07 19:08:11 +0200 <monochrom> I have observed cases when I outwit my students, and cases when they outwit me.
2021-10-07 19:08:11 +0200 <int-e> . o O ( Back in my days we respected our elders. )
2021-10-07 19:08:16 +0200 <dminuoso> I know, but I had to sound snarky for the humor.
2021-10-07 19:08:32 +0200 <monochrom> Statistically the former is more frequent but I no longer assume. I listen.
2021-10-07 19:08:42 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah heehee
2021-10-07 19:10:18 +0200 <monochrom> Here is an example of young arrogant dismissive me: https://www.vex.net/~trebla/stuff/TeX.html
2021-10-07 19:11:15 +0200 <int-e> dvips, have not seen that in a long long time
2021-10-07 19:12:24 +0200 <[exa]> dvips the mark of elders
2021-10-07 19:13:21 +0200 <dminuoso> Backslash is a elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
2021-10-07 19:13:36 +0200 <int-e> there were dedicated dvi viewers too :)
2021-10-07 19:14:19 +0200 <Franciman> monochrom: how do you deal with the cases when you get outwitted?
2021-10-07 19:14:51 +0200 <monochrom> At any rate, Gonzalez's article can be understood from the technical POV as rediscovering that classes can be implemented by dictionary passing. Dictionary passing is well-known, so no further discussion.
2021-10-07 19:15:09 +0200 <int-e> . o O ( and direct dvi to dot matrix printing )
2021-10-07 19:15:38 +0200 <monochrom> "hahaha beautiful/cool/awesome"
2021-10-07 19:15:46 +0200mbuf(~Shakthi@136.185.79.30) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-10-07 19:15:47 +0200 <[exa]> dotmatrix printer the music of the elders
2021-10-07 19:16:02 +0200 <geekosaur> and indirecting through gs for the cases there wasn't a direct dvi to dot matrix for
2021-10-07 19:16:25 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-10-07 19:16:46 +0200 <int-e> well, gs survived and is still part of modern printing pipelines
2021-10-07 19:16:55 +0200 <Skyfire> int-e: Does GHC has hardcoded magic to handle “printf”, just like OCaml?
2021-10-07 19:17:05 +0200 <int-e> Skyfire: no
2021-10-07 19:17:57 +0200 <geekosaur> and there's several printf implementations, from the arcane to the truly complex
2021-10-07 19:17:57 +0200 <int-e> Skyfire: there's a type-classed based implementation in Text.Printf which is driven by the types of the printed values; it checks the format string at runtime.
2021-10-07 19:17:59 +0200 <[exa]> Skyfire: you can utilize typeclasses to make a function that swallows a variable number of arguments, which is basically the haskell `printf`.
2021-10-07 19:18:19 +0200 <Skyfire> Oh, the format string is checked at runtime. I see.
2021-10-07 19:18:23 +0200 <int-e> There's probably a couple of TemplateHaskell based ones that check types statically.
2021-10-07 19:18:27 +0200 <Skyfire> Thanks, int-e and [exa].
2021-10-07 19:20:00 +0200 <[exa]> honestly this is one of the few usecases where TH makes sense for me, there's even a nice package called roughly "string interpolation" that does this stuff.. (The other major usecase is the codegen for lenses)
2021-10-07 19:20:42 +0200 <[exa]> uh seems like it's just `interpolate`. Skyfire that might be a nice alternative to printf.
2021-10-07 19:20:50 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 19:21:48 +0200 <int-e> [exa]: Oh I wasn't judging. I just never investigated the situation because usually either Text.Printf is good enough or I want fully fledged pretty-printing anyway.
2021-10-07 19:22:55 +0200 <[exa]> int-e: ah I didn't want to imply you were judging :] sorry if it looked so
2021-10-07 19:24:11 +0200 <mortemeur> is it normal for haskell-language-server to cause issues?
2021-10-07 19:24:38 +0200 <geekosaur> yes, it's still a bit unstable at times
2021-10-07 19:24:48 +0200 <geekosaur> still under heavy development
2021-10-07 19:25:09 +0200 <geekosaur> sometimes you just have to kill and restart it because it becomes very confused
2021-10-07 19:25:15 +0200 <[exa]> int-e: (probably mixed too much of my dislike of TH and like of the interpolate package together :D )
2021-10-07 19:25:20 +0200 <dminuoso> [exa]: TH is in my opinion underused.
2021-10-07 19:25:38 +0200 <int-e> [exa]: yeah we should stop apologizing to each other then :)
2021-10-07 19:25:44 +0200 <dminuoso> There's too much Generic code that should either have received a regular code generator or TH instead. Or if TH helpers do exist like in aeson, they're weirdly never used.
2021-10-07 19:25:46 +0200 <mortemeur> geekosaur: thank you. do you use it? are you used to restarting it?
2021-10-07 19:25:46 +0200 <[exa]> :]
2021-10-07 19:26:54 +0200 <geekosaur> I don't use it because I don't have alot of Haskell code and it's all simple enough that I don't need it, plus I come from a time before IDEs (see /nick :) I have seen people here who are fighting with a confused HLS and end up needing to kill and restart it
2021-10-07 19:26:56 +0200 <[exa]> dminuoso: likely true, actually I might be biased by the sight of historical misuses
2021-10-07 19:27:37 +0200 <geekosaur> my biggest code base is xmonad-contrib and I know it well enough that I don't really need an IDE at this point
2021-10-07 19:28:00 +0200 <geekosaur> it's large but mostly simple
2021-10-07 19:28:19 +0200 <int-e> I wish TH could separate compile time and runtime dependencies, but it's a hard problem.
2021-10-07 19:30:09 +0200 <[exa]> that's more of a cabal job right?
2021-10-07 19:30:27 +0200 <[exa]> ah no, you actually need a special include for that
2021-10-07 19:30:32 +0200 <dminuoso> int-e: Yeah, Ive stumbled over linker bugs that could not clearly be attributed to GHC or Cabal, things that would simply panic GHC, and its simply because of the way TH works..
2021-10-07 19:30:40 +0200 <int-e> [exa]: A bit of both
2021-10-07 19:32:24 +0200arjun(~Srain@user/arjun) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2021-10-07 19:35:24 +0200 <int-e> [exa]: what I meant is that you easily end up with heavy dependencies (say you want to support some custom splices, so you need to do your own parsing of Haskell code (using a quasi-quoter) and that means depending on haskell-src-exts or ghc-as-a-library...) and while that stuff is only needed at compile time, these dependencies will be linked with the final program
2021-10-07 19:35:30 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d192-24-122-179.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-10-07 19:36:30 +0200 <dminuoso> int-e: I think this could be avoided if GHC had an additional TH mode, one that would splice into the AST, modify the source files, and then be done.
2021-10-07 19:36:38 +0200 <int-e> So we'd need a variant of `import` just for compile time, for TH.
2021-10-07 19:36:50 +0200 <dminuoso> Which is something I'd really want for a couple reasons.
2021-10-07 19:36:52 +0200 <geekosaur> sadly zeroth turned out to be unmaintainable
2021-10-07 19:37:03 +0200emf(~emf@2620:10d:c090:400::5:fdfa) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 19:37:05 +0200 <int-e> dminuoso: that's not addressing the root cause
2021-10-07 19:37:12 +0200 <geekosaur> (TH as a preprocessor)
2021-10-07 19:37:21 +0200emf(~emf@2620:10d:c090:400::5:fdfa)
2021-10-07 19:37:27 +0200 <c_wraith> int-e: there's already a proposal for that in the works
2021-10-07 19:37:39 +0200 <c_wraith> wait, you're the one implementing it, aren't you?
2021-10-07 19:37:40 +0200 <int-e> c_wraith: yeah I think I saw at least one of those
2021-10-07 19:38:03 +0200 <sclv> is there a proposal for exposing ghc being able to directly parse to and emit th ast?
2021-10-07 19:38:05 +0200 <int-e> and it'll be exciting if it ever manifests :P
2021-10-07 19:38:07 +0200 <c_wraith> Or am I misremembering the discussion badly? :)
2021-10-07 19:38:14 +0200 <sclv> that's what I'd _really_ like
2021-10-07 19:38:24 +0200 <int-e> c_wraith: I'm not. Maybe int-index?
2021-10-07 19:38:31 +0200 <c_wraith> ah, yes. that's it.
2021-10-07 19:39:29 +0200 <c_wraith> sclv: Well, there's a project in the works to unify the template-haskell AST with the AST ghc uses internally
2021-10-07 19:39:46 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:f513:8be8:adee:de02) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 19:40:03 +0200 <c_wraith> sclv: though IIUC that is sort of on pause due to performance issues with the approach they were trying
2021-10-07 19:40:05 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 19:40:16 +0200 <int-e> oh https://hackage.haskell.org/package/derive looks pretty dead :/
2021-10-07 19:40:19 +0200Skyfire(~pyon@user/pyon) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
2021-10-07 19:40:49 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-10-07 19:41:13 +0200 <int-e> pointing to generics as an alternative, which kind of brings this discussion around a full circle
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2021-10-07 20:30:41 +0200 <zwro[m]> is there a class for "unliftable" types? eg: class Unliftable w where unlift :: w a -> a
2021-10-07 20:31:09 +0200 <dminuoso> What would "unlift" even mean?
2021-10-07 20:31:14 +0200 <dminuoso> What does that do?
2021-10-07 20:31:21 +0200 <int-e> "extract" ala comonads?
2021-10-07 20:31:33 +0200 <dminuoso> There is Copointed I guess then.
2021-10-07 20:31:40 +0200 <dminuoso> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pointed-5.0.2/docs/Data-Copointed.html#t:Copointed
2021-10-07 20:32:56 +0200 <zwro[m]> nice, thanks!
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2021-10-07 22:22:32 +0200 <Athas> Is there a good way to write megaparsec-based parsers that parse text where every line has a certain prefix?
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2021-10-07 22:22:56 +0200 <Athas> For example, consider parsing markup inside blocks of Haskell line comments.
2021-10-07 22:23:36 +0200 <Athas> (Assuming for simplicity that the line comments all start in the first column.)
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2021-10-07 22:26:58 +0200 <jackdk> can someone please help me fetch an updated version of a package using cabal.project? I checked out https://github.com/gilt/kms-s3 , added https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/9q3l4xUX/cabal.project and ran `cabal build`. After fetching the repository and building the packages in cabal.project, it claims to be unable to find modules provided by those packages (which are definitely listed in build-depends)
2021-10-07 22:27:45 +0200 <dsal> Athas: thats just `parsePrefix *> parsething`
2021-10-07 22:28:07 +0200 <Athas> dsal: I want the main part of the parser to be ignorant of the fact that a prefix might exist.
2021-10-07 22:28:33 +0200 <Athas> E.g. I want to write an expression parser that just skips "whitespace" or whatever, which also transparently would skip the prefix, if any.
2021-10-07 22:28:51 +0200 <Athas> Also, I want the parser to be configurable in whether there is a prefix or not.
2021-10-07 22:29:07 +0200 <dsal> I'm sure you could make that part of your whitespace consumer. It seems slightly weird.
2021-10-07 22:29:32 +0200 <dsal> Any horizontal spaces or a newline and an optional prefix and any horizontal whitespace.
2021-10-07 22:29:46 +0200 <Athas> What I have done now is parameterise my parser on what it considers whitespace, but this is verbose and clumsy.
2021-10-07 22:30:06 +0200 <sclv> c_wraith: even without that approach, just being able to get the th ast directly would bypass the need for haskell-src-meta, which would obviate the biggest source of why people have huge TH-time deps not linked in
2021-10-07 22:30:13 +0200 <dsal> Sure, but that's exactly what you're asking for. "whitespace" just means "the part you shouldn't pay attention to"
2021-10-07 22:30:13 +0200chomwitt(~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc18:b400:12c3:7bff:fe6d:d374) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-10-07 22:30:20 +0200 <sclv> and furthermore, it would make the whole quoting ecosystem much more robust
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2021-10-07 22:32:07 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-10-07 22:32:53 +0200 <Athas> Maybe the easiest solution is to write a separate parser that reads the entire block, strips the prefixes, passes the result to megaparsec, and then messes with any parse errors that occur to add back the prefix.
2021-10-07 22:32:57 +0200 <c_wraith> I mean, that's what I was getting at. When those are unified, the GHC parser could in theory be used directly in TH code, which would be nicer than having separate packages that need to be kept in sync with ghc and TH
2021-10-07 22:33:13 +0200 <Athas> Looks like megaparsec has a pstateLinePrefix in PosState to help with this.
2021-10-07 22:33:34 +0200acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d0c703cb15c01e6432704cfc21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-10-07 22:34:16 +0200 <sclv> right, i don't disagree. i'm just suggesting that well short of unification we could still have a win :-)
2021-10-07 22:34:47 +0200 <sclv> although maybe without unification the code bloat to ghc would be too high (if it implmemented the translation internally while keeping two asts)
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2021-10-07 22:36:34 +0200libertyprime(~libertypr@118.149.85.55)
2021-10-07 22:38:29 +0200 <jackdk> (This is on cabal 3.4)
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2021-10-07 22:42:15 +0200 <sclv> jackdk: do you see the whole "cloning into" thing where it fetches and builds the clones?
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2021-10-07 22:43:36 +0200 <jackdk> sclv: I do, and then I realise like a dummy that the old code I'm trying to save was trying to import modules that have moved into `other-modules:`. PEBCAK
2021-10-07 22:43:47 +0200 <jackdk> ty, though
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2021-10-07 23:24:23 +0200iphy(sid67735@id-67735.lymington.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:27 +0200pjlsergeant(sid143467@id-143467.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:32 +0200ephemient(uid407513@id-407513.lymington.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:32 +0200hamishmack(sid389057@id-389057.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:32 +0200stevenxl(sid133530@id-133530.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:32 +0200alanz(sid110616@id-110616.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:34 +0200_0x47(sid508683@id-508683.tinside.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:40 +0200supersven(sid501114@id-501114.ilkley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:41 +0200mcfilib(sid302703@user/mcfilib) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:44 +0200gonz___(sid304396@id-304396.lymington.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:44 +0200mrianbloom(sid350277@id-350277.ilkley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:46 +0200kaizen(sid501599@id-501599.helmsley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:46 +0200gmc(sid58314@id-58314.ilkley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:46 +0200hook54321(sid149355@user/hook54321) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:46 +0200ysh(sid6017@id-6017.ilkley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:46 +0200sa(sid1055@id-1055.tinside.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:56 +0200astra`(sid289983@user/amish) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:56 +0200tnks(sid412124@id-412124.helmsley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:56 +0200teehemkay(sid14792@id-14792.lymington.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:56 +0200SethTisue__(sid14912@id-14912.ilkley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:24:56 +0200ehamberg(sid18208@id-18208.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:00 +0200evertedsphere(sid434122@hampstead.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:25:01 +0200edwardk_(sid47016@haskell/developer/edwardk)
2021-10-07 23:25:02 +0200etrepum(sid763@uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:25:03 +0200dmj`(sid72307@hampstead.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:25:05 +0200degraafk(sid71464@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:25:06 +0200_0x47(sid508683@5.254.36.57)
2021-10-07 23:25:08 +0200sa1(sid7690@ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:25:09 +0200SanchayanMaity(sid478177@id-478177.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:09 +0200aarchi(sid486183@id-486183.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:09 +0200vito(sid1962@user/vito) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:14 +0200alinab(sid468903@id-468903.helmsley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:14 +0200tapas(sid467876@id-467876.ilkley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:14 +0200meinside(uid24933@id-24933.helmsley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:14 +0200eruditass(uid248673@id-248673.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:14 +0200amir(sid22336@user/amir) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:14 +0200S11001001(sid42510@2a03:5180:f:3::a60e) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:17 +0200edwardk(sid47016@haskell/developer/edwardk) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:17 +0200JSharp(sid4580@id-4580.lymington.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:17 +0200typetetris(sid275937@id-275937.tinside.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:17 +0200edwardk_edwardk
2021-10-07 23:25:20 +0200pjlsergeant(sid143467@hampstead.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:25:23 +0200rubin55(sid175221@hampstead.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:25:24 +0200astra`(sid289983@user/amish)
2021-10-07 23:25:25 +0200gmc(sid58314@ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:25:33 +0200nrr(sid20938@id-20938.lymington.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:33 +0200agander_m(sid407952@id-407952.tinside.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:33 +0200kristjansson_(sid126207@id-126207.tinside.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:33 +0200NiKaN(sid385034@id-385034.helmsley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:33 +0200rtpg(sid443069@id-443069.ilkley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:33 +0200jonrh(sid5185@id-5185.ilkley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:33 +0200parseval(sid239098@id-239098.helmsley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:33 +0200rune(sid21167@id-21167.ilkley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:33 +0200mustafa(sid502723@rockylinux/releng/mustafa) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:33 +0200davetapley(sid666@id-666.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:25:45 +0200PotatoGim(sid99505@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:25:49 +0200hubvu(sid495858@user/hubvu)
2021-10-07 23:25:54 +0200taktoa[c](sid282096@5.254.36.57)
2021-10-07 23:26:01 +0200scav(sid309693@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:07 +0200sclv(sid39734@haskell/developer/sclv)
2021-10-07 23:26:08 +0200sa(sid1055@5.254.36.57)
2021-10-07 23:26:13 +0200iphy(sid67735@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:13 +0200typetetris(sid275937@5.254.36.57)
2021-10-07 23:26:14 +0200gonz___(sid304396@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:14 +0200rune(sid21167@ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:15 +0200jonrh(sid5185@ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:17 +0200angerman(sid209936@ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:18 +0200bdaed(~bdaed@185.234.208.208.r.toneticgroup.pl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:26:21 +0200ehamberg(sid18208@hampstead.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:21 +0200hamishmack(sid389057@hampstead.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:23 +0200davetapley(sid666@uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:26 +0200gaze___(sid387101@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:30 +0200meinside(uid24933@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:36 +0200caasih(sid13241@ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:39 +0200Firedancer(sid336191@hampstead.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:41 +0200acertain(sid470584@hampstead.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:48 +0200nrr(sid20938@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:26:52 +0200carter(sid14827@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:27:05 +0200vito(sid1962@user/vito)
2021-10-07 23:27:06 +0200jackdk(sid373013@cssa/jackdk)
2021-10-07 23:27:12 +0200elvishjerricco(sid237756@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:27:31 +0200tnks(sid412124@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:27:35 +0200lightandlight(sid135476@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:27:37 +0200NiKaN(sid385034@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:27:41 +0200conjunctive(sid433686@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:27:44 +0200mustafa(sid502723@rockylinux/releng/mustafa)
2021-10-07 23:27:47 +0200eruditass(uid248673@uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:27:48 +0200enemeth79(sid309041@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:27:48 +0200teehemkay(sid14792@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:27:51 +0200cbarrett(sid192934@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:27:57 +0200S11001001(sid42510@ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:28:08 +0200cln(sid336875@ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:28:12 +0200tritlo(sid58727@user/tritlo)
2021-10-07 23:28:22 +0200Boarders(sid425905@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:28:27 +0200hendi(sid489601@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:28:27 +0200bw(sid2730@user/betawaffle)
2021-10-07 23:28:30 +0200JSharp(sid4580@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:28:31 +0200jakesyl(sid56879@hampstead.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:28:44 +0200econo(uid147250@user/econo)
2021-10-07 23:28:45 +0200alanz(sid110616@uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:28:49 +0200bjs(sid190364@user/bjs)
2021-10-07 23:28:49 +0200systemfault(sid267009@uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:28:50 +0200obviyus(sid415299@user/obviyus)
2021-10-07 23:29:11 +0200alinab(sid468903@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:29:13 +0200edmundnoble(sid229620@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:29:13 +0200idnar(sid12240@debian/mithrandi)
2021-10-07 23:29:17 +0200whez(sid470288@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:29:17 +0200SethTisue__(sid14912@ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:29:18 +0200ProofTechnique(sid79547@ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:29:18 +0200ephemient(uid407513@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:29:22 +0200mrianbloom(sid350277@ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:29:25 +0200supersven(sid501114@ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:29:41 +0200amir(sid22336@user/amir)
2021-10-07 23:29:46 +0200SanchayanMaity(sid478177@hampstead.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:29:58 +0200integral(sid296274@user/integral)
2021-10-07 23:29:58 +0200ystael(~ystael@user/ystael) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-10-07 23:29:59 +0200philpax_(sid516926@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:30:01 +0200Adeon(sid418992@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:30:05 +0200Pent(sid313808@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:30:20 +0200aarchi(sid486183@uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:30:21 +0200glowcoil(sid3405@5.254.36.57)
2021-10-07 23:30:22 +0200agander_m(sid407952@5.254.36.57)
2021-10-07 23:30:24 +0200SrPx(sid108780@uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:30:24 +0200stevenxl(sid133530@uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:30:32 +0200kristjansson_(sid126207@5.254.36.57)
2021-10-07 23:30:57 +0200truckasaurus(sid457088@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:31:01 +0200ysh(sid6017@ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:31:12 +0200rtpg(sid443069@ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:31:19 +0200hnOsmium0001(uid453710@hampstead.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:31:30 +0200NemesisD(sid24071@lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:32:23 +0200kaizen(sid501599@helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:35:09 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@77.119.205.6.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:37:08 +0200hongminhee(sid295@id-295.tinside.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:37:44 +0200b20n(sid115913@id-115913.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:38:08 +0200christiaanb(sid84827@id-84827.lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:38:10 +0200T_S_(sid501726@id-501726.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:38:12 +0200dsal(sid13060@id-13060.lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:38:28 +0200kaychaks__(sid236345@id-236345.helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:38:28 +0200pfurla(~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net)
2021-10-07 23:38:35 +0200aria(sid380617@id-380617.lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:38:35 +0200bbhoss(sid18216@id-18216.tinside.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:38:41 +0200awpr(uid446117@id-446117.lymington.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:38:42 +0200Megant_Megant
2021-10-07 23:38:44 +0200bradparker(sid262931@id-262931.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:38:56 +0200hook54321(sid149355@user/hook54321)
2021-10-07 23:39:00 +0200gregberns__(sid315709@id-315709.helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:39:01 +0200grfn(sid449115@id-449115.helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:39:08 +0200jmct_(sid160793@id-160793.tinside.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:39:13 +0200dpratt_(sid193493@id-193493.helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:39:48 +0200tapas(sid467876@id-467876.ilkley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:40:40 +0200mcfilib(sid302703@user/mcfilib)
2021-10-07 23:40:51 +0200doyougnu(~user@c-73-25-202-122.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 23:41:00 +0200parseval(sid239098@id-239098.helmsley.irccloud.com)
2021-10-07 23:41:26 +0200pfurla_(~pfurla@176.67.85.207) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:42:57 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a8-176.dhcp.inet.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 23:43:03 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.204.87) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-10-07 23:43:45 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a8-176.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-10-07 23:44:55 +0200dudek(~dudek@185.150.236.103) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-10-07 23:45:56 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:48:14 +0200rtjure(~rtjure@bras-79-132-17-74.comnet.bg) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:51:27 +0200Cajun(~Cajun@user/cajun)
2021-10-07 23:55:41 +0200emf_(~emf@2620:10d:c090:400::5:fdfa)
2021-10-07 23:58:01 +0200emf(~emf@2620:10d:c090:400::5:fdfa) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-10-07 23:59:35 +0200libertyprime(~libertypr@118.149.85.55) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-10-07 23:59:39 +0200beka(~beka@104.193.170.240)
2021-10-07 23:59:40 +0200jtomas_(~jtomas@95.red-88-11-64.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)