IRCBrowse

2021/07/23

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2021-07-23 02:35:23 +0200romes24(~romes@44.190.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt)
2021-07-23 02:35:31 +0200 <romes24> hey everyone :)
2021-07-23 02:36:06 +0200 <geekosaur> ohai
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2021-07-23 02:57:03 +0200hiruji(~hiruji@user/hiruji) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-23 02:57:37 +0200 <romes24> is there a way to forcefully terminate a program after x seconds ? I've seen System.Timeout however it doesn't interrupt my non terminating program :)
2021-07-23 02:57:52 +0200 <Axman6> all exit?
2021-07-23 02:57:56 +0200 <Axman6> call*
2021-07-23 02:58:02 +0200 <romes24> oh im going to try -fomit-yields wait
2021-07-23 02:58:18 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-23 02:58:24 +0200 <geekosaur> if your program doesn't allocate even that might not work
2021-07-23 02:58:31 +0200 <c_wraith> you probably want -fno-omit-yields
2021-07-23 02:58:36 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-07-23 02:58:56 +0200 <Axman6> yeah... you want to emmit yeilds, not omit them
2021-07-23 02:59:06 +0200zeenk(~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a008:d600:18f2:3421:bac6:8f38) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2021-07-23 02:59:54 +0200 <romes24> thank you :), ahaha
2021-07-23 03:00:24 +0200 <Axman6> ields too
2021-07-23 03:00:41 +0200 <Axman6> argh, why isn't my first key registering
2021-07-23 03:00:55 +0200 <Axman6> I have enough trouble typing without my keyboard betraying me
2021-07-23 03:02:17 +0200zaquest(~notzaques@5.128.210.178)
2021-07-23 03:02:24 +0200 <romes24> it doesn't stop indeed :) the program is a lambda calculus interpreter that I want to quit after x seconds if doesn't terminate
2021-07-23 03:03:12 +0200 <dsal> I think you just solved the halting problem.
2021-07-23 03:03:22 +0200 <romes24> LOL :)
2021-07-23 03:03:40 +0200 <romes24> but I don't want to know whether it halts or not, I want to timeout
2021-07-23 03:03:53 +0200phma(phma@2001:5b0:212a:a908:914b:947b:7a62:29b3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-23 03:04:02 +0200 <Axman6> "Does it halt?" "It bloody well better!"
2021-07-23 03:04:13 +0200 <romes24> hahahahaha
2021-07-23 03:04:19 +0200 <dsal> I actually have a similar problem that ended up being painfully complicated because of exception handlers and stuff. I haven't looked at it in a year or so, but I was having trouble getting my watchdog to actually terminate my process.
2021-07-23 03:04:19 +0200cjb(~cjb@user/cjb)
2021-07-23 03:04:42 +0200 <Axman6> os, if it were me, I would run the evaluation in another thread, and using something like the async library to kill that thread after n seconds
2021-07-23 03:04:44 +0200 <dsal> I was forced to, instead, fix the bug that made me want the watchdog.
2021-07-23 03:05:14 +0200 <romes24> Axman6 that's kind of what I was looking for here :) can you point me to some docs ?
2021-07-23 03:05:26 +0200 <romes24> what's a watchdog
2021-07-23 03:05:27 +0200 <Axman6> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/async-2.2.3/docs/Control-Concurrent-Async.html#v:race
2021-07-23 03:05:36 +0200 <romes24> thank you kindly Axman6
2021-07-23 03:05:46 +0200 <Axman6> stick timeout in the left thread, then check the result
2021-07-23 03:05:51 +0200mnrmnaughBMCC
2021-07-23 03:06:15 +0200 <Axman6> "The loser of the race is cancelled" bloody cancel culture
2021-07-23 03:06:31 +0200BMCCawk
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2021-07-23 03:09:14 +0200 <romes24> ahahaha just now I got the joke. what a useful utility actually
2021-07-23 03:09:34 +0200 <Axman6> lso, you should read parallel and concurrent programming in haskell
2021-07-23 03:09:50 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-07-23 03:09:51 +0200 <Axman6> it
2021-07-23 03:10:01 +0200ukari(~ukari@user/ukari)
2021-07-23 03:10:03 +0200 <Axman6> it's very approachable and explains all the nuances of concurrency in haskell
2021-07-23 03:10:10 +0200 <romes24> yeah I haven't gotten into it at all but sounds wonderful
2021-07-23 03:10:11 +0200 <dsal> +1 but also `race` is brilliant.
2021-07-23 03:10:32 +0200meinside_(uid24933@id-24933.brockwell.irccloud.com)
2021-07-23 03:10:33 +0200 <romes24> it does look like it ahah +1
2021-07-23 03:11:09 +0200 <dsal> @hoogle timeout
2021-07-23 03:11:09 +0200 <lambdabot> System.Timeout timeout :: Int -> IO a -> IO (Maybe a)
2021-07-23 03:11:09 +0200 <lambdabot> System.Directory.Internal.Prelude timeout :: () => Int -> IO a -> IO (Maybe a)
2021-07-23 03:11:09 +0200 <lambdabot> System.Timeout.Lifted timeout :: MonadBaseControl IO m => Int -> m a -> m (Maybe a)
2021-07-23 03:11:17 +0200 <dsal> I use that in a few places
2021-07-23 03:11:29 +0200 <dsal> (the first one, anyway)
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2021-07-23 03:31:48 +0200 <slack1256> Do any of you use any haskell library to interface to the gpio pins on a RPi?
2021-07-23 03:31:58 +0200nate1(~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-23 03:32:00 +0200 <slack1256> Tried `HPi` but didn't build.
2021-07-23 03:35:19 +0200 <monochrom> I don't, someone else did, you'll have to wait for them, but they exist.
2021-07-23 03:35:39 +0200 <monochrom> Then again, IIRC they just use FFI and write to I/O ports.
2021-07-23 03:36:17 +0200 <slack1256> Mmm yeah, I better follow that route.
2021-07-23 03:37:00 +0200 <zzz> when a language extension says it implies another does it mean we can ommit the latter?
2021-07-23 03:37:08 +0200 <c_wraith> yes
2021-07-23 03:37:22 +0200 <zzz> got it
2021-07-23 03:37:37 +0200 <monochrom> "omit" and "emit" are easy to mix up. :)
2021-07-23 03:38:00 +0200 <monochrom> -femit-yield and fno-omit-yield and -fno-emit-yield
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2021-07-23 04:00:53 +0200 <romes24> can't make it work even with race unfortunately
2021-07-23 04:01:01 +0200 <romes24> I'm probably doing something about concurrency wrong in general :P
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2021-07-23 04:04:45 +0200 <Axman6> we'd love to help, but we're blind without the code ;)
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2021-07-23 04:20:53 +0200romes85(~romes@44.190.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt)
2021-07-23 04:21:14 +0200 <romes85> Axman6 that'd be nice, let me do a paste
2021-07-23 04:24:06 +0200 <romes85> I've tried some different things but I'm clearly doing it wrong. it seems that if I kill the program before it enters a loop it works but as soon as the program is in an infinite loop no kill signal can stop it ahaha
2021-07-23 04:24:07 +0200 <romes85> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/uVe1GGLk
2021-07-23 04:24:17 +0200 <romes85> this is what i was trying now
2021-07-23 04:24:27 +0200 <romes85> perhaps I gave up on the Async too soon
2021-07-23 04:24:41 +0200motle(~motle@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust506.18-2.cable.virginm.net)
2021-07-23 04:27:10 +0200 <motle> Hi, i wrote a description of part of the graph API im trying to implement here; https://pastebin.com/raw/8u7g3gUP
2021-07-23 04:27:46 +0200 <motle> and was wondering if anyone would be up for discussing it as part of a full interface
2021-07-23 04:27:54 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-23 04:28:18 +0200 <romes85> (my attempt at async was like this https://paste.tomsmeding.com/SCuAwkTI)
2021-07-23 04:28:57 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-07-23 04:29:45 +0200MorrowM(~Morrow@bzq-110-168-31-106.red.bezeqint.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-07-23 04:30:10 +0200Morrow(~Morrow@bzq-110-168-31-106.red.bezeqint.net)
2021-07-23 04:32:40 +0200finn_elija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2021-07-23 04:32:40 +0200FinnElijaGuest3789
2021-07-23 04:32:40 +0200finn_elijaFinnElija
2021-07-23 04:35:05 +0200 <slycelote_> romes85, have you tried System.Timeout?
2021-07-23 04:35:32 +0200 <h98> is "infinite program" external or is it a haskell function?
2021-07-23 04:35:34 +0200Guest3789(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-23 04:35:40 +0200 <romes85> it's a haskell function!
2021-07-23 04:36:05 +0200 <romes85> that recurses infinitely
2021-07-23 04:36:10 +0200 <motle> something liek forever $ do ?
2021-07-23 04:36:15 +0200 <romes85> slycelote_ I've tried without results
2021-07-23 04:36:24 +0200 <romes85> I might have screwed it up tho ^
2021-07-23 04:36:31 +0200Atum_(~IRC@user/atum/x-2392232) (Quit: Atum_)
2021-07-23 04:36:36 +0200 <romes85> yea motle, in fact its a lambda-calculus interpreter
2021-07-23 04:36:44 +0200 <motle> nice
2021-07-23 04:37:15 +0200 <motle> could you do like; infinite (unfold stateProgram) ?
2021-07-23 04:37:49 +0200 <romes85> im synthesising linear functional programs, but couldn't create good enough heuristics to avoid synthesising some recursive functions. so when the programs are run they loop forever lol
2021-07-23 04:38:01 +0200 <motle> whats the functor your program terms are supported on?
2021-07-23 04:38:14 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-23 04:38:33 +0200 <slycelote_> Are you sure the interpreter doesn't do any I/O behind the scenes? Can you try a simpler "infinite" program?
2021-07-23 04:38:44 +0200 <motle> romes85: yeah, what youv done there is chosen to make "1-loop" programs from linear programs by feeding the output into the next layer
2021-07-23 04:38:52 +0200 <motle> simple architecture
2021-07-23 04:38:58 +0200 <motle> you can run them in parallel too..
2021-07-23 04:39:13 +0200 <motle> like bike vs car wheels
2021-07-23 04:39:16 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-07-23 04:39:46 +0200 <slycelote_> also, try changing between threaded and non-threaded runtimes (a shot in the dark...)
2021-07-23 04:39:48 +0200 <motle> generally all recursive programs can be made into such a shape
2021-07-23 04:40:22 +0200 <romes85> I'll attempt a simpler infinite program slycelote, that's a good idea.
2021-07-23 04:40:33 +0200 <romes85> I couldn't follow motle :)
2021-07-23 04:40:55 +0200 <motle> if you kind of think of the propegation of function calls dereferencing along a kind of "front" and placing these neatly as layers that can be treated as linear nodes
2021-07-23 04:40:57 +0200 <motle> basically...
2021-07-23 04:41:16 +0200phma_(~phma@host-67-44-208-68.hnremote.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-23 04:41:30 +0200 <romes85> oh never mind the linear, I think I might have made it more confusing , it doesn't matter :) the essence is "how do I stop an infinite program from running after x seconds"
2021-07-23 04:42:01 +0200 <romes85> I don't think I'm doing it correctly, I just experimented the concurrency modules for the first time
2021-07-23 04:42:10 +0200ablutor(~quassel@wasscher.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-23 04:42:21 +0200 <romes85> (meaning I'm new to them)
2021-07-23 04:43:00 +0200 <motle> ah, so you want something like an open handle containing the running program that you can apply a function to to stop and maybe restart it or something like that?
2021-07-23 04:43:24 +0200 <romes85> yeah, no need to restart, just stop the "infinity"
2021-07-23 04:43:26 +0200 <motle> what you have seems like a good way to start with though
2021-07-23 04:43:39 +0200 <romes85> perhaps even timeout works, if used correctly..
2021-07-23 04:44:09 +0200 <slycelote_> timeout 1000 $ return $ fromADTBool $ evalModule $ infinite program
2021-07-23 04:44:10 +0200 <motle> not sure how youd factor it into a "running IO variable" that you could pass and then have a way to use this as an argument to the stopping function
2021-07-23 04:44:14 +0200 <slycelote_> should just work...
2021-07-23 04:44:14 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-07-23 04:44:59 +0200 <motle> oh right, timeout does something like that? :: Int -> IO ValueHandleThing -> result
2021-07-23 04:45:07 +0200 <h98> when you tried timeout, did you consume the value?
2021-07-23 04:46:00 +0200 <romes85> what does "consuming the value mean"? thank you :)
2021-07-23 04:46:22 +0200 <romes85> slycelote_ it didn't, but perhaps its a combination of emit omit threaded I did wrong...
2021-07-23 04:46:23 +0200 <h98> just a shot in the dark, but binding the result to an a and printing it or something
2021-07-23 04:46:40 +0200 <romes85> I see :)
2021-07-23 04:46:57 +0200 <romes85> I'll put it inside a case
2021-07-23 04:47:38 +0200phma_(phma@2001:5b0:211f:6ab8:d4bc:dc6f:9391:c76c)
2021-07-23 04:48:14 +0200falafel(~falafel@pool-96-255-70-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
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2021-07-23 04:53:06 +0200 <romes85> it worked that's genius :)
2021-07-23 04:53:42 +0200 <romes85> h98 you shoot in the dark but you have night vision goggles :)
2021-07-23 04:53:56 +0200falafel(~falafel@pool-96-255-70-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-23 04:54:22 +0200 <romes85> I'm going to try it again just to see if I missed something the last time around, or if it really is from the forcing the strict evaluation with `case`
2021-07-23 04:55:23 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2021-07-23 04:56:36 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-07-23 04:57:00 +0200 <romes85> ACTUALLY AMAZING :)
2021-07-23 04:57:47 +0200 <romes85> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/3IuASlTo
2021-07-23 04:59:23 +0200 <slycelote_> ah, well, that's lazy IO :)
2021-07-23 04:59:51 +0200 <slycelote_> in the first example return "returns" immediately I guess
2021-07-23 05:00:48 +0200 <romes85> :) I'm very happy, thank you for your insights
2021-07-23 05:02:41 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:b5ac:63df:d679:fb5d) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-23 05:03:25 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:b5ac:63df:d679:fb5d)
2021-07-23 05:04:20 +0200 <Axman6> romes85: using "return !$ doo" is often a good way to force things, at least to WHNF
2021-07-23 05:04:49 +0200 <Axman6> so you should be able to say return !$ y which would ensure that y is evaluated before being passed to return
2021-07-23 05:05:04 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-07-23 05:05:29 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-07-23 05:06:14 +0200 <romes85> I still don't understand WHNF completely, but I'll look into it soon and remember what you said. I'll also attempt to use that operator
2021-07-23 05:06:44 +0200 <Axman6> it's when a value is evaluated enough to know which constructor it is
2021-07-23 05:07:44 +0200 <romes85> did you mean $! ?
2021-07-23 05:07:46 +0200 <Axman6> in the case of Bool, that means fully evaluating it. but if you have return $! (undefined :: Either String Bool) then this will blow up right away, if you have return $! (Left undefined) this won't blow up until someone looks at that value in the Left
2021-07-23 05:07:57 +0200 <Axman6> uh yeah
2021-07-23 05:08:03 +0200 <romes85> oh, that's a good explanation
2021-07-23 05:09:21 +0200m7zs3gzw(~m7zs3gzw@188.170.195.101)
2021-07-23 05:09:40 +0200 <romes85> yep, $! also works
2021-07-23 05:09:55 +0200 <romes85> thank you everyone, it's 4AM, I'm logging off
2021-07-23 05:10:26 +0200 <Axman6> D:
2021-07-23 05:10:38 +0200 <romes85> ahahahah I've been at this timeout problem for hours
2021-07-23 05:11:10 +0200 <romes85> lazy IO, who would've thought, here I was thinking that's the kind of thing "that only happens to others" hahahah
2021-07-23 05:11:22 +0200 <Axman6> I don't think this is lazy IO
2021-07-23 05:11:26 +0200 <romes85> oh
2021-07-23 05:11:27 +0200 <romes85> :)
2021-07-23 05:11:39 +0200 <romes85> it's just general lazy ? ahaha
2021-07-23 05:11:54 +0200 <Axman6> lazy IO generally refers to things like how readFile works, where it reads from the String it produces as you demant more characters
2021-07-23 05:12:09 +0200 <romes85> understood :)
2021-07-23 05:12:15 +0200 <Axman6> yeah just normal laziness, in that values returned by IO may not have been evaluated when they're returned
2021-07-23 05:12:43 +0200 <romes85> got it, good night!
2021-07-23 05:12:49 +0200romes85(~romes@44.190.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-07-23 05:12:51 +0200 <slycelote_> yeah, lazy in IO would be better way to put it :)
2021-07-23 05:13:02 +0200m7zs3gzw(~m7zs3gzw@188.170.195.101) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-23 05:13:16 +0200m7zs3gzw(~m7zs3gzw@188.170.195.101)
2021-07-23 05:13:20 +0200 <h98> i'm honestly surprised that could be a thing..is it actually a thing?
2021-07-23 05:13:37 +0200 <h98> when I do an IO (), I expect an IO action to be performed
2021-07-23 05:14:10 +0200 <slycelote_> not when you ignore the result
2021-07-23 05:14:44 +0200 <slycelote_> > return undefined >> return 5
2021-07-23 05:14:45 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2021-07-23 05:14:45 +0200 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘m0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M555254866422...
2021-07-23 05:14:46 +0200 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show (m0 Integer))’ from being solved.
2021-07-23 05:14:49 +0200 <monochrom> (Sarcasm) Right, for example, the result of putStrLn "hello" is (). If you ignore the () result, hello is not printed.
2021-07-23 05:15:04 +0200 <slycelote_> > return undefined >> return (5 :: Int)
2021-07-23 05:15:06 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2021-07-23 05:15:06 +0200 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘m0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M288721645296...
2021-07-23 05:15:06 +0200 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show (m0 Int))’ from being solved.
2021-07-23 05:15:21 +0200 <slycelote_> > return (undefined :: Int) >> return (5 :: Int)
2021-07-23 05:15:22 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2021-07-23 05:15:22 +0200 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘m0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M141220481975...
2021-07-23 05:15:22 +0200 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show (m0 Int))’ from being solved.
2021-07-23 05:15:35 +0200 <slycelote_> grr, why? :-D
2021-07-23 05:15:42 +0200 <monochrom> If you have "getLine >> putStrLn "hello"", you are ignoring both the result of getLine and putStrLn, so nothing happens at all.
2021-07-23 05:16:39 +0200 <monochrom> If that is contrary to what you actually observe, then it means the model "nothing happens when you ignore the result" is wrong.
2021-07-23 05:17:36 +0200 <c_wraith> > let x = putStrLn "hi" in 3
2021-07-23 05:17:37 +0200nate1(~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-07-23 05:17:37 +0200 <lambdabot> 3
2021-07-23 05:17:43 +0200 <c_wraith> I ignored the result. :)
2021-07-23 05:17:46 +0200 <monochrom> haha
2021-07-23 05:18:20 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2021-07-23 05:18:25 +0200 <monochrom> I have a student who is trying very hard to code up "newvalue = foo >>= \x -> return x" to set newvalue to that x.
2021-07-23 05:18:41 +0200dtman34(~dtman34@c-73-62-246-247.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-07-23 05:19:10 +0200 <slycelote_> I mean in your examples there's actual I/O
2021-07-23 05:19:20 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:b5ac:63df:d679:fb5d) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-23 05:19:27 +0200 <motle> ah, the old teaching by example...
2021-07-23 05:19:34 +0200Null_A(~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:b5ac:63df:d679:fb5d)
2021-07-23 05:19:50 +0200 <motle> eg. \x -> ...
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2021-07-23 05:24:13 +0200 <h98> I've just been using Ptrs too much lately...though malloc and free have never misled me :)
2021-07-23 05:24:36 +0200 <motle> h98: what language?
2021-07-23 05:24:45 +0200 <h98> haskell hah
2021-07-23 05:24:57 +0200 <motle> no, they never misled me either!?
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2021-07-23 08:15:52 +0200Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
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2021-07-23 09:40:04 +0200cjb(~cjb@user/cjb) (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 28.0.50)
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2021-07-23 10:10:14 +0200delYsid(~user@84-115-55-45.cable.dynamic.surfer.at) (ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1.50))
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2021-07-23 10:11:18 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-239.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
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2021-07-23 10:17:30 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-23 10:18:18 +0200jneira_(~jneira_@28.red-80-28-169.staticip.rima-tde.net) (Quit: Connection closed)
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2021-07-23 10:24:53 +0200Gurkenglas(~Gurkengla@dslb-002-203-144-156.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
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2021-07-23 10:25:37 +0200dunj3(~dunj3@2001:16b8:3037:a600:fd3a:4df5:b1ce:d427)
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2021-07-23 10:44:39 +0200aegon(~mike@174.127.249.180) ()
2021-07-23 10:45:46 +0200sim590(~simon@modemcable090.207-203-24.mc.videotron.ca) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-23 10:46:03 +0200hpc(~juzz@ip98-169-35-13.dc.dc.cox.net)
2021-07-23 10:47:44 +0200octeep(~octeep@n219077208088.netvigator.com)
2021-07-23 10:50:02 +0200Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-23 10:51:36 +0200delYsid(~user@84-115-55-45.cable.dynamic.surfer.at)
2021-07-23 10:57:45 +0200shutdown_-h_now(~arjan@82-75-187-100.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-07-23 11:01:42 +0200enoq(~enoq@194-208-179-35.lampert.tv)
2021-07-23 11:02:09 +0200 <enoq> so I think I finally understood the reader monad yesterday and it looks like a very shitty way to do dependency injection
2021-07-23 11:02:14 +0200ukari(~ukari@user/ukari) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-23 11:02:56 +0200 <enoq> more aking to a service locator where you need to pass around a whole context to each function
2021-07-23 11:03:10 +0200shutdown_-h_now(~arjan@82-75-187-100.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2021-07-23 11:03:21 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2021-07-23 11:03:22 +0200ukari(~ukari@user/ukari)
2021-07-23 11:03:32 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-23 11:03:33 +0200 <dibblego> haha
2021-07-23 11:03:41 +0200hpc(~juzz@ip98-169-35-13.dc.dc.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-23 11:03:41 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-23 11:06:42 +0200 <enoq> also monads seem a lot less useful without do notation
2021-07-23 11:07:20 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2021-07-23 11:07:21 +0200 <dibblego> it's all figured guys!
2021-07-23 11:08:50 +0200jippiedoe(~david@2a02-a44c-e14e-1-59d6-1288-7c50-1f49.fixed6.kpn.net)
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2021-07-23 11:18:58 +0200wallymathieu(~wallymath@81-234-151-21-no94.tbcn.telia.com)
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2021-07-23 11:23:39 +0200jippiedoe(~david@2a02-a44c-e14e-1-59d6-1288-7c50-1f49.fixed6.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-07-23 11:34:47 +0200agua(~agua@2804:18:44:46ad:1:0:480e:2382)
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2021-07-23 11:39:59 +0200aplainze1akindaplainzetakind
2021-07-23 11:44:19 +0200Katarushisu(~Katarushi@cpc147334-finc20-2-0-cust27.4-2.cable.virginm.net)
2021-07-23 11:49:26 +0200econo(uid147250@user/econo) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
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2021-07-23 11:51:11 +0200azeem(~azeem@dynamic-adsl-84-220-213-65.clienti.tiscali.it) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-23 11:52:17 +0200jippiedoe(~david@2a02-a44c-e14e-1-315b-248c-f439-9989.fixed6.kpn.net) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-07-23 11:58:10 +0200viluon(uid453725@id-453725.brockwell.irccloud.com)
2021-07-23 11:58:55 +0200azeem(~azeem@dynamic-adsl-84-220-213-65.clienti.tiscali.it)
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2021-07-23 12:07:52 +0200nate1(~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
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2021-07-23 12:18:12 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2)
2021-07-23 12:18:48 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
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2021-07-23 12:25:27 +0200nate1(~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
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2021-07-23 12:29:29 +0200nsilv(~nsilv@212.103.198.210) (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1)
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2021-07-23 12:37:13 +0200mnrmnaugh(~mnrmnaugh@pool-96-252-87-182.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2021-07-23 12:37:34 +0200mnrmnaugh(~mnrmnaugh@pool-96-252-87-182.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Client Quit)
2021-07-23 12:38:59 +0200anandprabhu(~anandprab@185.195.233.165) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-07-23 12:49:00 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d0c72b9578109cf675b5466e47.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-07-23 12:49:15 +0200motle(~motle@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust506.18-2.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: Client closed)
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2021-07-23 12:51:54 +0200acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d0c72b958874b654708e10a316.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-23 12:52:04 +0200mnrmnaugh(~mnrmnaugh@pool-96-252-87-182.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
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2021-07-23 12:56:22 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a1-224.dhcp.inet.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-23 12:56:33 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a1-224.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-07-23 12:58:52 +0200delYsid(~user@84-115-55-45.cable.dynamic.surfer.at) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-07-23 13:00:26 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-011.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-07-23 13:02:38 +0200hololeap_(~hololeap@user/hololeap) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-07-23 13:10:35 +0200curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net)
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2021-07-23 13:20:16 +0200anandprabhu(~anandprab@94.202.243.198)
2021-07-23 13:26:18 +0200chexum(~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-07-23 13:26:34 +0200enoq(~enoq@194-208-179-35.lampert.tv) (Quit: enoq)
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2021-07-23 14:43:56 +0200 <Orbstheorem> enoq: I think there's a whole new grammar possible only with monadic types. For instance I frequently use `>>=`, `<$>` and `<=<`.
2021-07-23 14:44:18 +0200 <Orbstheorem> TBH, I often first write my expression in do notation and the reduce it applicative-style.
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2021-07-23 16:56:32 +0200 <maerwald> do notation is proof that even in functional languages, we think imperatively :p
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2021-07-23 16:58:10 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> haskell is the best imperative language ;p
2021-07-23 17:00:33 +0200 <c_wraith> I don't really think of do-notation as more imperative than (>>=), but that's just because I've internalized the desugaring
2021-07-23 17:00:44 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com)
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2021-07-23 17:02:40 +0200ahri(~ahri@185.108.168.17.default.telcom.network)
2021-07-23 17:02:52 +0200 <ahri> I have a Haskell webserver and something is going horribly wrong - it clearly has a massive memory leak and ends up being killed by the OS. I've recompiled via "stack build --profile" and I tried some RTS config (via the env var) - these do produce .hp files, and I have converted them to pretty graphs via hp2ps and hp2pretty. All good except that
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2021-07-23 17:02:53 +0200 <ahri> they only capture the first 10-15 seconds of the run
2021-07-23 17:02:58 +0200peterhil(~peterhil@mobile-access-b04801-219.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-07-23 17:03:04 +0200 <ahri> unfortunately my massive memory leak is happening later than that (it depends on some interaction from me). what's going on and how can I capture the data I need? is it because it's a multi-threaded server? or because the OS is killing it?
2021-07-23 17:03:45 +0200 <c_wraith> I've definitely had .hp files contain data from much more time than that, so it's not some sort of internal limit.
2021-07-23 17:03:58 +0200Vajb(~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a1-224.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-07-23 17:04:24 +0200 <c_wraith> it's probably due to IO buffering
2021-07-23 17:04:46 +0200sedeki(~textual@user/sedeki) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-07-23 17:05:14 +0200 <maerwald> ahri: StrictData
2021-07-23 17:05:19 +0200 <maerwald> thank me later
2021-07-23 17:05:29 +0200 <ahri> I'm not familiar with profiling in GHC, is it possible to force a flush on a regular basis?
2021-07-23 17:06:05 +0200 <ahri> maerwald: yeah, I suspect that'll fix it, but I was trying to use this as an opportunity to learn about profiling too :)
2021-07-23 17:06:07 +0200 <c_wraith> ugh, StrictData is a band-aid that rarely fixes actual problems but does create a bunch of new ones
2021-07-23 17:06:11 +0200gzj(~GZJ0X@199.193.127.138.16clouds.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2021-07-23 17:06:14 +0200 <c_wraith> why do people like it?
2021-07-23 17:06:30 +0200 <maerwald> huh?
2021-07-23 17:06:41 +0200 <maerwald> it fixes a lot of problem in production *all the time*
2021-07-23 17:06:52 +0200 <maerwald> to the point that many projects enable it unconditinally
2021-07-23 17:06:58 +0200 <maerwald> including network packages
2021-07-23 17:07:00 +0200 <c_wraith> I've never had it do anything except create problems
2021-07-23 17:07:25 +0200 <maerwald> even Snoyman agrees on it
2021-07-23 17:07:37 +0200 <maerwald> it is the better default
2021-07-23 17:07:37 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-07-23 17:07:41 +0200 <c_wraith> that's a weird use of "even"
2021-07-23 17:07:51 +0200 <maerwald> if you need laziness in your data, you can still annotate it
2021-07-23 17:08:00 +0200 <c_wraith> That's the problem
2021-07-23 17:08:17 +0200 <c_wraith> What if you don't know your users need laziness?
2021-07-23 17:08:19 +0200delYsid(~user@84-115-55-45.cable.dynamic.surfer.at)
2021-07-23 17:08:27 +0200 <c_wraith> They can't fix your mistake
2021-07-23 17:08:50 +0200 <maerwald> provide two APIs?
2021-07-23 17:08:52 +0200 <maerwald> easy
2021-07-23 17:08:57 +0200 <maerwald> see bytestring etc :)
2021-07-23 17:09:00 +0200 <c_wraith> or provide one correct API
2021-07-23 17:09:11 +0200 <maerwald> this isn't about correctness
2021-07-23 17:09:30 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> clearly not if snoyman agrees on it
2021-07-23 17:09:49 +0200 <c_wraith> almost every function has one correct laziness
2021-07-23 17:10:05 +0200 <Clint> how do you annotate for laziness?
2021-07-23 17:10:13 +0200 <c_wraith> throw a ~ on the field
2021-07-23 17:10:31 +0200 <Clint> ah
2021-07-23 17:11:46 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-23 17:11:49 +0200 <c_wraith> and yeah... Ever since bytestring added unnecessary strictness and broke one of my programs, I've been rather against making things strict just in case.
2021-07-23 17:12:06 +0200 <ahri> so ummm, are we saying that I don't have a good way to get a useful .hp file?
2021-07-23 17:12:18 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-07-23 17:13:26 +0200 <EvanR> specifically which bytestring thing did that?
2021-07-23 17:13:27 +0200 <maerwald> c_wraith: what?
2021-07-23 17:14:22 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-23 17:14:34 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-23 17:14:41 +0200 <c_wraith> Data.Bytestring.Lazy.foldr was changed to be strict in all 3 arguments somewhere around 2009, and that broke some knot-tying I was doing
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2021-07-23 17:15:44 +0200 <maerwald> haha
2021-07-23 17:15:48 +0200 <EvanR> seems like an odd decision on their part
2021-07-23 17:15:51 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-23 17:16:06 +0200 <maerwald> well, that's haskell... not everything is in the types
2021-07-23 17:16:42 +0200 <maerwald> with inlining it's even harder
2021-07-23 17:16:45 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.204.61) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-23 17:16:51 +0200 <maerwald> if your library depends on inlining semantics
2021-07-23 17:18:02 +0200 <maerwald> I am still missing a comprehensive blog post that clearly explains all the cases that can break inlining and how to get around it
2021-07-23 17:18:42 +0200 <maerwald> it seems you end up reading GHC source code etc in order to figure that out
2021-07-23 17:18:58 +0200 <maerwald> quite inaccessible
2021-07-23 17:20:20 +0200 <c_wraith> But that's what I was getting at. Most functions have exactly one correct amount of strictness that allows users full control over resulting evaluation dependencies. And it's never "force everything"
2021-07-23 17:20:43 +0200 <maerwald> that's a very weird use of "correct"
2021-07-23 17:20:54 +0200 <c_wraith> It shouldn't be
2021-07-23 17:21:04 +0200 <maerwald> well, it seems rather arbitrary
2021-07-23 17:21:10 +0200 <maerwald> unless you can formalise it
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2021-07-23 17:46:53 +0200pfurla_(~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net)
2021-07-23 17:48:06 +0200 <arkanoid> how can I take element 0,2,4,6,... of a list?
2021-07-23 17:49:01 +0200 <glguy> arkanoid: just write a little recursive function to do it with pattern matching
2021-07-23 17:49:18 +0200 <arkanoid> well, I've rolled my own, but isn't it better to use existing functions?
2021-07-23 17:49:24 +0200pfurla(~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-23 17:49:27 +0200 <arkanoid> I mean, I feel like there should be one
2021-07-23 17:49:44 +0200ahri(~ahri@185.108.168.17.default.telcom.network) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-07-23 17:49:59 +0200 <glguy> I wouldn't expect it to exist anywhere common. I'm sure it's been written before.
2021-07-23 17:50:17 +0200nate1(~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2021-07-23 17:50:29 +0200ph88(~ph88@2a02:8109:9e00:7e5c:4c3:7ef8:c703:fb12)
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2021-07-23 17:52:01 +0200 <arkanoid> ok
2021-07-23 17:54:24 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-07-23 17:55:32 +0200hyiltiz(~quassel@31.220.5.250)
2021-07-23 17:55:48 +0200aerona(~aerona@2600:6c54:4600:f300:8c49:c590:8f74:ccf2)
2021-07-23 17:56:07 +0200 <EvanR> even splitting a list into chunks requires pulling in a library
2021-07-23 17:56:44 +0200 <EvanR> or writing your own, but it seems to come up a lot.
2021-07-23 17:57:23 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-23 17:57:47 +0200 <xsperry> > let f = map snd . filter (even . fst) . zip [0..] in f "abcdef"
2021-07-23 17:57:48 +0200 <lambdabot> "ace"
2021-07-23 17:58:38 +0200 <delYsid> :t fmap head . chunksOf 2
2021-07-23 17:58:39 +0200 <lambdabot> [b] -> [b]
2021-07-23 17:59:12 +0200 <delYsid> > (fmap head . chunksOf 2) [0,1,2,3,4,5]
2021-07-23 17:59:13 +0200 <lambdabot> [0,2,4]
2021-07-23 17:59:34 +0200 <EvanR> i feel more fuzzy writing the recursion
2021-07-23 18:00:38 +0200ub(~Thunderbi@77.119.196.49.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2021-07-23 18:01:20 +0200 <xerox> > takeWhile (not . null) . unfoldr (Just . splitAt 3) $ ['a'..'z']
2021-07-23 18:01:22 +0200 <lambdabot> ["abc","def","ghi","jkl","mno","pqr","stu","vwx","yz"]
2021-07-23 18:03:55 +0200wei2912(~wei2912@112.199.250.21) (Quit: Lost terminal)
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2021-07-23 18:06:25 +0200gensyst(gensyst@user/gensyst)
2021-07-23 18:07:41 +0200 <gensyst> I see 0.8.0 as latest for streamly on Hackage, however after "cabal update" my index still only has 0.7.3 in it. I.e. the ~/.cabal/packages/hackage.haskell.org/streamly dir only contains the 0.7.3 dir. Why?
2021-07-23 18:09:25 +0200 <maerwald> gensyst: are you in a project dir?
2021-07-23 18:10:00 +0200 <gensyst> maerwald, i was, but i just tried again outside a project dir. still no 0.8.0 dir
2021-07-23 18:10:28 +0200slycelote_(~slycelote@user/slycelote) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-23 18:10:32 +0200 <c_wraith> uh. those directories only exist if you install the package. Have you done anything that would install version 0.8.0.0
2021-07-23 18:11:02 +0200nate1(~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-23 18:11:50 +0200 <maerwald> the index is 01-index.tar
2021-07-23 18:12:26 +0200 <janus> what does "user target" mean in a cabal resolution error message? thinking about this one https://github.com/haskell-hvr/missingh/issues/54#issuecomment-882805817
2021-07-23 18:12:44 +0200 <janus> sorry, not that one, but the last comment
2021-07-23 18:12:58 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-23 18:13:05 +0200slycelote(~slycelote@user/slycelote)
2021-07-23 18:13:31 +0200 <c_wraith> "user goal" means the thing you asked it to install, rather than an inferred (transitive) dependency
2021-07-23 18:14:28 +0200 <janus> but hackage doesn't show the constraint random==1.2 for MissingH, so how can that person get that error message?
2021-07-23 18:14:31 +0200 <gensyst> maerwald, c_wraith ok, i didn't realize this
2021-07-23 18:14:35 +0200 <gensyst> thanks
2021-07-23 18:14:48 +0200 <janus> @package MissingH
2021-07-23 18:14:48 +0200 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/MissingH
2021-07-23 18:15:45 +0200haskl(~haskl@98.37.78.63)
2021-07-23 18:15:48 +0200 <c_wraith> wow. That's an odd kitchen sink
2021-07-23 18:16:51 +0200chele(~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-23 18:17:02 +0200 <janus> it's required for ftphs, i am trying to get Goerzen hand ftphs over to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Goerzen
2021-07-23 18:17:51 +0200curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-23 18:17:53 +0200 <c_wraith> oh, that's cabal install --lib
2021-07-23 18:18:02 +0200 <janus> i was wondering whether stuart-little (person with the error message) may have an existing package that makes MissingH not be installable? but if global packages don't exist anymore surely that wouldn't be the case
2021-07-23 18:18:05 +0200 <Boarders> in lens are their variants on <=+ but which return the previous result?
2021-07-23 18:18:07 +0200 <c_wraith> So it's also treating things you already have installed
2021-07-23 18:18:16 +0200 <Boarders> ah found it just as I asked
2021-07-23 18:18:17 +0200 <Boarders> <<
2021-07-23 18:18:19 +0200ub(~Thunderbi@77.119.196.49.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2021-07-23 18:18:20 +0200 <Boarders> <<+=
2021-07-23 18:18:20 +0200 <sclv> with --lib you have "global packages" with regards to everything specified in an existing file
2021-07-23 18:18:26 +0200 <sclv> er an existing ghc environment file
2021-07-23 18:18:44 +0200 <c_wraith> err. treating things already in the env file as user goals
2021-07-23 18:18:57 +0200 <janus> oh :O so they'd have to remove their existing random==1.2.0 first. and the "user target" is including the global package set implied by --lib ?
2021-07-23 18:19:13 +0200 <c_wraith> sad conclusion: cabal install --lib can never be used twice without deleting the env file in between :)
2021-07-23 18:19:34 +0200 <dminuoso> c_wraith: yeah :)
2021-07-23 18:19:39 +0200 <sclv> there's a big ongoing discussion on how to fix --lib or supplant it
2021-07-23 18:19:54 +0200 <sclv> i commented on the ticket for now at least
2021-07-23 18:20:11 +0200 <janus> thanks a lot sclv
2021-07-23 18:20:37 +0200 <sclv> goerzen hasn't been around foreverish
2021-07-23 18:20:59 +0200 <sclv> if you can't reach him in a reasonable amount of time i'd suggest you initiate a package takeover request
2021-07-23 18:22:00 +0200 <janus> yes. i'll give him a few more weeks, he already kinda agreed to it
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2021-07-23 18:25:02 +0200lbseale(~lbseale@user/ep1ctetus)
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2021-07-23 18:43:07 +0200 <maerwald> "kinda" as in "didn't reply"? :p
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2021-07-23 19:12:03 +0200 <janus> maerwald: maybe he thought i was the author of the PR and then when he found out i wasn't, he had his doubts https://github.com/jgoerzen/ftphs/pull/23
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2021-07-23 20:05:25 +0200curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net)
2021-07-23 20:10:07 +0200 <zzz> I'm using FlexibleInstances for the first time and have a question. i'm {-# OVERLAPPING #-} Ord (Int,Int) and then doing M.elems on a M.Map (Int,Int) a. Should I expect M.elems to respect my overlapping Ord?
2021-07-23 20:10:44 +0200 <c_wraith> :t M.elems
2021-07-23 20:10:45 +0200 <lambdabot> M.Map k a -> [a]
2021-07-23 20:10:54 +0200 <c_wraith> You see the total lack of Ord requirement?
2021-07-23 20:11:01 +0200 <c_wraith> elems doesn't care how things are ordered
2021-07-23 20:11:10 +0200 <c_wraith> It just does an in-order traversal of the binary tree
2021-07-23 20:11:14 +0200 <zzz> O(n). Return all elements of the map in the ascending order of their keys. Subject to list fusion.
2021-07-23 20:11:17 +0200 <zzz> ^from the docs
2021-07-23 20:11:26 +0200 <c_wraith> Types are docs, too
2021-07-23 20:11:39 +0200 <c_wraith> The lack of an Ord constraint in the type tells you something
2021-07-23 20:11:44 +0200fendor_fendor
2021-07-23 20:12:06 +0200 <zzz> right...
2021-07-23 20:12:09 +0200 <c_wraith> what matters is the Ord instance used when inserting values
2021-07-23 20:12:28 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-07-23 20:12:38 +0200 <c_wraith> elems just does the trivial in-order tree traversal you'd expect. No order comparisons at all
2021-07-23 20:13:09 +0200 <zzz> so the answer is "no"
2021-07-23 20:13:32 +0200 <zzz> because I'm using M.insert
2021-07-23 20:13:39 +0200 <EvanR> the implementation happens to be able to deliver the documented order without using Ord (at that point) heh
2021-07-23 20:13:52 +0200 <EvanR> *magic hands*
2021-07-23 20:14:37 +0200 <zzz> how can i achieve the order i intend?
2021-07-23 20:14:39 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2021-07-23 20:14:40 +0200 <c_wraith> In general you probably shouldn't use OverlappingInstances. It just doesn't do what you think it does
2021-07-23 20:14:53 +0200 <c_wraith> You should create your own data type with an Ord instance that does what you want
2021-07-23 20:15:29 +0200platz(~platz@40.122.118.113)
2021-07-23 20:15:30 +0200 <EvanR> which could just be a newtype over another type for the purposes of changing 1 instance
2021-07-23 20:15:54 +0200 <EvanR> and then you can newtype wrap, operate, and unwrap
2021-07-23 20:15:59 +0200 <platz> Just upgraded Esqueleto to use the latest syntax, works well
2021-07-23 20:17:10 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-07-23 20:18:05 +0200 <h98> zzz read https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/instances.html carefully
2021-07-23 20:18:25 +0200 <h98> it's actually very clear and takes out a lot of guesswork with overlapping/overlappable etc once you understand how instance resolution works
2021-07-23 20:19:55 +0200 <zzz> i think my misundertanding here has more to do with Data.Map
2021-07-23 20:20:59 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-23 20:20:59 +0200 <zzz> no?
2021-07-23 20:21:20 +0200 <zzz> :t M.insert
2021-07-23 20:21:21 +0200 <lambdabot> Ord k => k -> a -> M.Map k a -> M.Map k a
2021-07-23 20:21:43 +0200 <zzz> oh i see
2021-07-23 20:21:56 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-07-23 20:22:03 +0200 <zzz> nevermind
2021-07-23 20:22:08 +0200 <davean> zzz: Don't use overlapping instances, create the nominal type you want
2021-07-23 20:22:44 +0200Matthias1(~Matthias1@cpe-76-170-236-166.socal.res.rr.com)
2021-07-23 20:22:48 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.69.87)
2021-07-23 20:23:19 +0200bitmapper(uid464869@id-464869.tooting.irccloud.com)
2021-07-23 20:23:47 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-07-23 20:25:18 +0200 <EvanR> having at most 1 instance of a given class for a given type is really nice for logic reasons
2021-07-23 20:25:50 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2021-07-23 20:26:36 +0200 <EvanR> and since that relationship is global, it really simplifies a lot of stuf
2021-07-23 20:26:53 +0200 <monochrom> I do best of both worlds: Create both the nominal class and the nominal type I want. https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2017-May/127147.html >:)
2021-07-23 20:27:18 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-23 20:28:27 +0200 <EvanR> this post seems short enough for me to determine if it's a joke before I have to get on this plane!
2021-07-23 20:28:28 +0200dajoer(~david@user/gvx) (Quit: leaving)
2021-07-23 20:28:58 +0200 <monochrom> Hell, even I, the author, can't determine whether it's a joke or not.
2021-07-23 20:29:20 +0200 <monochrom> I would love to use that system, and at the same time it is funny.
2021-07-23 20:29:33 +0200 <EvanR> where does p come from in the MyOrd class
2021-07-23 20:29:54 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-23 20:29:54 +0200 <monochrom> Usually you would use Proxy. I would.
2021-07-23 20:30:20 +0200 <monochrom> mycmp (Proxy :: Proxy Rev) "ab" "xy"
2021-07-23 20:30:32 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-07-23 20:31:11 +0200 <monochrom> It's a "forall p".
2021-07-23 20:31:31 +0200 <EvanR> i see
2021-07-23 20:31:59 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-07-23 20:32:13 +0200 <EvanR> this goes against typeclasses vs the world, in a way that makes me sympathetic to 'the world'
2021-07-23 20:34:08 +0200agua(~agua@2804:18:44:46ad:1:0:480e:2382)
2021-07-23 20:34:09 +0200 <davean> EvanR: hum? How so? This keeps the properties
2021-07-23 20:36:07 +0200 <EvanR> i was under the impression that the desire to mix and match instances on the same type was 'the problem'
2021-07-23 20:36:40 +0200 <EvanR> how can i do this, you can't do this, you shouldn't even want to do this, sort of thing
2021-07-23 20:37:08 +0200 <davean> EvanR: Except it doesn't mix them here - that "solution" keeps them seperate
2021-07-23 20:37:13 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-23 20:37:22 +0200 <EvanR> yeah i see that
2021-07-23 20:37:42 +0200 <EvanR> so i don't understand the original issue now xD
2021-07-23 20:37:53 +0200pesada(~agua@191.177.175.57) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-07-23 20:37:57 +0200 <davean> EvanR: you never get the "Wrong" instance with this
2021-07-23 20:38:32 +0200pesada(~agua@2804:14c:8793:8e2f:8013:a595:bc17:299d)
2021-07-23 20:38:47 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-23 20:39:02 +0200 <monochrom> The desire is that sometimes you want one hash function for String, sometimes you want a different hash function. You can do newtyping, but it becomes annoying.
2021-07-23 20:39:07 +0200pavonia(~user@user/siracusa)
2021-07-23 20:39:36 +0200 <davean> Right, this creates an index on the type class, and assigns instances to types inside said index
2021-07-23 20:39:46 +0200 <davean> this is a way of producing a matrix of type classes
2021-07-23 20:41:20 +0200 <davean> EvanR: Efectively this is a higher kinded type class
2021-07-23 20:41:20 +0200 <monochrom> And the same time, once you have chosen one hash function for a hash table, you don't want accidental switching to a different hash function.
2021-07-23 20:41:20 +0200 <davean> just like Maybe is a higher kinded type
2021-07-23 20:41:20 +0200 <davean> the actual "realish" instance is after you plug in a parameter
2021-07-23 20:41:20 +0200agua(~agua@2804:18:44:46ad:1:0:480e:2382) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-07-23 20:41:20 +0200 <EvanR> and if you didn't use type classes at all, nothing stops you from having the wrong hash function at the wrong place
2021-07-23 20:41:20 +0200 <monochrom> So I said, if I don't newtype, then I need a type marker to mark which hash function my table is using.
2021-07-23 20:41:20 +0200Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@nwcsnbsc03w-47-54-173-93.dhcp-dynamic.fibreop.nb.bellaliant.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-07-23 20:41:20 +0200 <davean> EvanR: Whats good about type classes is coherence - this doesn't sacrifice that at all
2021-07-23 20:41:20 +0200Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@nwcsnbsc03w-47-54-173-93.dhcp-dynamic.fibreop.nb.bellaliant.net)
2021-07-23 20:41:22 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-23 20:41:55 +0200 <EvanR> yeah
2021-07-23 20:42:18 +0200 <davean> This is basicly a way to introduce type classes "on the fly" sorta, while knowing their laws still
2021-07-23 20:42:20 +0200 <davean> for example
2021-07-23 20:42:35 +0200 <davean> the same way we have higher kinded laws for Maybe
2021-07-23 20:43:48 +0200 <EvanR> i want this to be an instance of generally stating whatever you want in type classes
2021-07-23 20:43:55 +0200 <monochrom> You can still sympathize with the world because the world uses OOP in which a hash table object comes with its own insert and delete methods and those two methods have already linked to one hash function at table creation time, not switchable, the problem doesn't even exist in the first place.
2021-07-23 20:43:58 +0200 <EvanR> and having it be checked
2021-07-23 20:46:50 +0200 <EvanR> encoding what you want directly, hinging on this one resolver, seems better than hoping you wrote to abstract data type correctly... but also requires a different mentality
2021-07-23 20:47:01 +0200 <EvanR> wrote the*
2021-07-23 20:50:45 +0200ralu(~ralu@static.211.245.203.116.clients.your-server.de) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-07-23 20:50:54 +0200p3n(~p3n@217.198.124.246) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-07-23 20:50:59 +0200ralu(~ralu@static.211.245.203.116.clients.your-server.de)
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2021-07-23 20:51:52 +0200p3n(~p3n@217.198.124.246)
2021-07-23 20:52:07 +0200 <davean> EvanR: I think they both have their place
2021-07-23 20:53:05 +0200 <monochrom> :)
2021-07-23 20:53:36 +0200Obo(~roberto@70.pool90-171-81.dynamic.orange.es)
2021-07-23 20:56:42 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-07-23 20:57:51 +0200 <EvanR> yeah... important to see 'the world' for it's virtues or no one hires you! xD
2021-07-23 20:59:06 +0200 <davean> Being hired sounds like one of the world's virtues
2021-07-23 21:00:37 +0200 <davean> Bit of circular logic there.
2021-07-23 21:00:37 +0200thmprover(~user@047-042-215-236.res.spectrum.com)
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2021-07-23 21:01:23 +0200Matthias1(~Matthias1@cpe-76-170-236-166.socal.res.rr.com)
2021-07-23 21:01:44 +0200Lycurguspities a wage slave
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2021-07-23 21:28:43 +0200stefan-_(~cri@42dots.de)
2021-07-23 21:29:06 +0200 <arkanoid> is Char a byte? Is "FOO" 24 bytes long?
2021-07-23 21:30:40 +0200 <swistak> do you mean 24 bits?
2021-07-23 21:30:47 +0200 <arkanoid> yeah, sorry
2021-07-23 21:31:05 +0200 <monochrom> Char is not a byte. "FOO" is 24*(length "FOO") bytes.
2021-07-23 21:31:13 +0200 <ixlun> Hi all, I'm trying to use ghc 8.10.5 on arm64 darwin and I keep getting errors from clang that it can't assemble the file. Interestingly, it's trying to assemble X86 code. I don't unserstand why it's not generating arm64 code. Any ideas?
2021-07-23 21:31:54 +0200 <monochrom> Or let's be more candid. 'F' : ('O' : ('O' : []) has three (:) nodes, each note is 24 bytes.
2021-07-23 21:32:42 +0200chris_(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-23 21:32:57 +0200curiousgay(~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net)
2021-07-23 21:33:18 +0200 <arkanoid> monochrom: ok, but if each node is 24 bytes, how many of these bytes are for the value (Char) and which for the linked list?
2021-07-23 21:33:38 +0200 <monochrom> All 3*24 bytes are for the linked list.
2021-07-23 21:33:47 +0200 <davean> monochrom: uh, I think you have you "FOO" calculations wrong. Theres pointers, etc
2021-07-23 21:34:00 +0200 <monochrom> GHC provides a flyweight table for the individual Chars, so no extra cost.
2021-07-23 21:34:06 +0200 <davean> oh, you said bytes, not bits
2021-07-23 21:34:39 +0200 <monochrom> well, for the ascii ones or a small subset, but it covers 'F" and 'O'.
2021-07-23 21:35:18 +0200 <monochrom> But if you're interested in the cost of that flyweight table, it's 8 bytes per Char.
2021-07-23 21:35:32 +0200zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag)
2021-07-23 21:35:50 +0200 <monochrom> or rather if a character is not in the table and must be made at run time.
2021-07-23 21:36:25 +0200oxide(~lambda@user/oxide) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-07-23 21:37:09 +0200arthurxavierx(~arthurxav@201.17.157.69)
2021-07-23 21:37:14 +0200 <arkanoid> ah ok, so a String is a linked list of Char that are pointers to a flyweight table of 1 Byte Unicode characters or possibly a runtime multibyte Unicode rune
2021-07-23 21:37:26 +0200 <monochrom> 8 byte
2021-07-23 21:37:31 +0200 <monochrom> I.e., s/1/8/
2021-07-23 21:37:58 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-07-23 21:38:24 +0200oxide(~lambda@user/oxide)
2021-07-23 21:38:50 +0200 <arkanoid> 8 Bytes for each character? There unicode runes are 143859
2021-07-23 21:39:06 +0200alx741(~alx741@186.178.108.210) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-07-23 21:39:40 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-011.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-07-23 21:39:41 +0200 <monochrom> Welcome to lazy evaluation, which necessitates more bytes for marking "I am a value" vs "I am a piece of code, run me!"
2021-07-23 21:39:53 +0200arthurxavierx(~arthurxav@201.17.157.69) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-23 21:40:00 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-07-23 21:40:08 +0200 <arkanoid> :D now it makes sense. I was missing that point
2021-07-23 21:40:10 +0200 <arkanoid> thanks a lot
2021-07-23 21:40:52 +0200arthurxavierx(~arthurxav@201.17.157.69)
2021-07-23 21:41:06 +0200 <monochrom> In fact welcome to the STG machine, which nicely unifies those two cases by "if it takes k bytes to store a code pointer, let's also use the same 8 bytes space to say I'm a value".
2021-07-23 21:41:07 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn)
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2021-07-23 21:41:37 +0200burnsidesLlama(~burnsides@dhcp168-011.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
2021-07-23 21:42:38 +0200 <monochrom> And I still made a mistake. Char is 16 bytes. 8 bytes for "I am a value, not a code pointer, but I use the same 8 bytes anyway", followed by 8 bytes for the actual value.
2021-07-23 21:42:54 +0200 <monochrom> Unicode doesn't need 8 bytes but alignment does.
2021-07-23 21:43:22 +0200arthurxavierx(~arthurxav@201.17.157.69) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-07-23 21:43:41 +0200 <arkanoid> I need to read about STG now, actually I know nothing about how haskell managed lazyness
2021-07-23 21:43:47 +0200 <platz> Is all that talk about "initial" and "final" encodings really just mean data constructors vs typeclasses, or is there value in using the former terms beyond that
2021-07-23 21:43:58 +0200 <monochrom> This is the weight of the simplistic code "data Char = C# Char#"
2021-07-23 21:44:28 +0200 <arkanoid> STG = "spineless, tagless, G-machine", really? :D
2021-07-23 21:44:40 +0200 <monochrom> yes
2021-07-23 21:44:54 +0200 <monochrom> G for graph but meh
2021-07-23 21:44:54 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-07-23 21:45:02 +0200 <Rembane> platz: I would use the initial encodings and final encodings names because they carry more information.
2021-07-23 21:45:15 +0200 <Rembane> platz: And if you google them you find at least one only slightly confusing paper. :)
2021-07-23 21:45:54 +0200 <platz> Rembane: well that's the issue, the terms seem to confuse more than what they actually signify in haskell code
2021-07-23 21:47:33 +0200 <Rembane> platz: What main sources of confusion have you encountered so far?
2021-07-23 21:47:35 +0200 <platz> "tagless" seems like historical baggage.
2021-07-23 21:47:53 +0200 <platz> the term i mean
2021-07-23 21:48:40 +0200aegon(~mike@174.127.249.180)
2021-07-23 21:48:46 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-07-23 21:49:22 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-07-23 21:50:06 +0200 <arkanoid> what's the general use of haskell in real-world? Is it used more as a standalone system or to build system libraries to be called by FFI? I mean, when a large imperative program requires refactor to get back some control over complexity, is porting pure logic to haskell and calling back it from original project a viable (I mean applied in production) solution?
2021-07-23 21:50:11 +0200thmprover(~user@047-042-215-236.res.spectrum.com) (Quit: And Let's Away, to Part the Glories of This Happy Day)
2021-07-23 21:50:36 +0200arthurxavierx(~arthurxav@201.17.157.69)
2021-07-23 21:50:50 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-07-23 21:51:13 +0200 <monochrom> standalone system
2021-07-23 21:51:23 +0200 <davean> I only see the second in a few cases
2021-07-23 21:51:28 +0200 <davean> It occures, but its rare
2021-07-23 21:51:47 +0200 <davean> platz: whats historical about it?
2021-07-23 21:51:58 +0200 <adamse> platz: intial vs final have meaning beyond data constructors and tc's. i got a lot from attending http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psznhn/MGS2018/MGS2018-courses.html#COA, perhaps the lecture notes are useful
2021-07-23 21:52:27 +0200 <arkanoid> thanks
2021-07-23 21:53:13 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-07-23 21:53:13 +0200 <davean> platz: Many current designs are tagged
2021-07-23 21:53:31 +0200 <dminuoso> arkanoid: "standalone systems" rarely exist. Most of the time systems are an integrated part of some larger architecture.
2021-07-23 21:53:37 +0200alx741(~alx741@186.178.108.59)
2021-07-23 21:54:40 +0200 <adamse> arkanoid: i use haskell for both parts at $work, final application and various libraries called from other (non-haskell) apps
2021-07-23 21:55:21 +0200 <janus> does making a web server count as "being called by FFI" ?
2021-07-23 21:55:49 +0200 <monochrom> I think people call that "called by API".
2021-07-23 21:56:17 +0200 <dminuoso> Arguably, calling into a C library from Haskell is calling by API too.
2021-07-23 21:56:22 +0200 <arkanoid> dminuoso: if you put it down like that, like janus says, you can consider every IPC or API
2021-07-23 21:56:31 +0200 <monochrom> I would not be unhappy if they at least clarified that to "web API".
2021-07-23 21:56:45 +0200 <dminuoso> arkanoid: My point is, we're incrementally replacing parts of a larger architecture here by Haskell parts.
2021-07-23 21:57:01 +0200 <dminuoso> But none of that is through what one would ordinarily call FFI.
2021-07-23 21:57:26 +0200 <davean> dminuoso: no, thats via ABI :-p
2021-07-23 21:57:42 +0200 <arkanoid> so you're integrating haskell by replacing services
2021-07-23 21:57:45 +0200 <dminuoso> Perhaps part of why FFI is unsuitable in general, is that the common denominator here is C, and that's a fairly ugly low level where mapping your high level parts might be really cumbersome.
2021-07-23 21:57:50 +0200Guest70(~Guest70@192.75.101.164)
2021-07-23 21:58:06 +0200 <platz> davean: i'll take a look, thanks
2021-07-23 21:58:27 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-07-23 21:58:59 +0200m4lvin(~m4lvin@w4eg.de) (Quit: m4lvin)
2021-07-23 21:59:22 +0200m4lvin(~m4lvin@w4eg.de)
2021-07-23 21:59:57 +0200favonia(~favonia@user/favonia)
2021-07-23 22:00:06 +0200 <arkanoid> the haskell wiki on the FFI page says "Note that to call a Haskell function, the runtime system must have been initialized with a call to "hs_init". It must be released with a call to "hs_exit" when it is no longer required. See the user guide for more details" but the link is broken https://wiki.haskell.org/Foreign_Function_Interface
2021-07-23 22:00:33 +0200 <janus> arkanoid: the link at the top works, i'll fix the other
2021-07-23 22:00:37 +0200 <dminuoso> And worse, if the other language is not C, you will end up needing C wrappers - which makes for very annoying semantics. If either of those languages has things like memory management, lifetime tracking, non-trivial concepts of threads/processes, signal management, you get into a whole world of pain.
2021-07-23 22:02:05 +0200 <janus> fixed now
2021-07-23 22:02:25 +0200 <arkanoid> woa, that was quick! thanks
2021-07-23 22:04:05 +0200 <arkanoid> dminuoso: ccall would be perfect in my case. I wonder what will be the memory footprint, I intend to do experiments on low-end devices
2021-07-23 22:04:46 +0200 <dsal> I read that as call/cc
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2021-07-23 22:05:39 +0200 <dminuoso> arkanoid: So one of my first worries would be, what effects does calling into hs_init have exactly? What signal handlers does it install?
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2021-07-23 22:06:46 +0200 <arkanoid> exactly, but I wonder why they should be installed
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2021-07-23 22:15:13 +0200 <janus> arkanoid: phadej recommended using capi over ccall
2021-07-23 22:17:08 +0200 <adamse> i've proposed a change to the ghc users guide: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/6234, but i'm not sure if someone other than me would find it better. any thoughts?
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2021-07-23 22:19:48 +0200 <arkanoid> janus: isn't capi to call C code from haskell?
2021-07-23 22:19:50 +0200 <dminuoso> adamse: To keep the form correct, perhaps just "Runtime System Options" (such that the abbreviation (RTS) is introduced in the text below). Alternatively, I'd write it as "Runtime System (RTS) Options", and then not introduce the abbreviation in the text below.
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2021-07-23 22:20:11 +0200 <arkanoid> I plan to do the other way arount (but actually unsure, actually)
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2021-07-23 22:21:37 +0200 <janus> ooh i dunno if capi can do exports, sorry, i missed that
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2021-07-23 22:27:58 +0200 <adamse> dminuoso: thanks, i like your second suggestion (i want to put RTS in the title to simplify searching and scanning the toc)
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2021-07-23 22:42:58 +0200 <maerwald> janus: yes use capi
2021-07-23 22:43:23 +0200 <maerwald> ccall often breaks on darwin, where you have lots of dark header CPP magic
2021-07-23 22:44:17 +0200 <maerwald> example https://github.com/biegunka/terminal-size/pull/16
2021-07-23 22:44:45 +0200 <maerwald> (that bug took an entire day to find)
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2021-07-23 23:02:58 +0200 <monochrom> capi is close to being a case of "those who have learned from history are doomed to helplessly watch people repeat it" :)
2021-07-23 23:04:00 +0200 <monochrom> A long long time ago if you wrote "foreign import ccall "header.h" ..." the idea was that the compiler may read and care about header.h for sanity checks.
2021-07-23 23:04:44 +0200 <monochrom> The operative word here is "may" because it is also OK if the compiler doesn't. Indeed when GHC switched to native codegen it stopped doing that.
2021-07-23 23:05:03 +0200 <monochrom> Now we have capi which restored that old tradition.
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