IRCBrowse

2021/06/27

2021-06-27 00:01:34 +0200 <geekosaur> > let f :: [Int]; f = do { return 2; return 3; }
2021-06-27 00:01:35 +0200 <lambdabot> <no location info>: error:
2021-06-27 00:01:35 +0200 <lambdabot> not an expression: ‘let f :: [Int]; f = do { return 2; return 3; }’
2021-06-27 00:01:41 +0200 <geekosaur> > let f :: [Int]; f = do { return 2; return 3; } in f
2021-06-27 00:01:42 +0200 <lambdabot> [3]
2021-06-27 00:01:50 +0200 <geekosaur> return is not a statement;
2021-06-27 00:02:03 +0200 <geekosaur> @undo do { return 2; return 3 }
2021-06-27 00:02:03 +0200 <lambdabot> return 2 >> return 3
2021-06-27 00:02:12 +0200 <geekosaur> the 2 is discarded
2021-06-27 00:02:13 +0200 <a6a45081-2b83> I was expecting it to inject the value in the monad
2021-06-27 00:02:19 +0200 <a6a45081-2b83> more like >>=
2021-06-27 00:02:21 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2021-06-27 00:02:34 +0200 <a6a45081-2b83> yeah you are right
2021-06-27 00:02:39 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-06-27 00:04:06 +0200 <dsal> `return` is a confusing function and is best avoided.
2021-06-27 00:07:12 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-27 00:07:42 +0200gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-06-27 00:08:27 +0200 <hpc> it's best to just rename return to something even more confusing
2021-06-27 00:08:36 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2021-06-27 00:08:38 +0200 <hpc> foo = do {this; that; the other thing; exit();}
2021-06-27 00:08:46 +0200 <a6a45081-2b83> rofl
2021-06-27 00:09:12 +0200 <janus> > let exit() = pure
2021-06-27 00:09:13 +0200 <lambdabot> <no location info>: error: not an expression: ‘let exit() = pure’
2021-06-27 00:09:19 +0200 <hpc> @let exit = pure
2021-06-27 00:09:20 +0200 <lambdabot> Defined.
2021-06-27 00:09:25 +0200 <hpc> :t exit()
2021-06-27 00:09:26 +0200 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f ()
2021-06-27 00:09:42 +0200falafel(~falafel@pool-96-255-70-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-27 00:09:51 +0200 <hpc> :t exit(1)
2021-06-27 00:09:52 +0200 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Num a) => f a
2021-06-27 00:09:54 +0200 <hpc> :D
2021-06-27 00:10:16 +0200 <janus> maybe one could use aboriginal brackets like they do in go for generics and have it not be an unit..
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2021-06-27 02:50:04 +0200 <qrpnxz> importing category is really annoying because of (.) in the prelude, why isn't category in the prelude
2021-06-27 02:50:26 +0200jlombera(~jlombera@187.177.181.166) (Quit: WeeChat 3.2)
2021-06-27 02:50:33 +0200 <qrpnxz> well ig you can just use <<< nvm
2021-06-27 02:51:21 +0200betelgeuse(~john2gb@94-225-47-8.access.telenet.be)
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2021-06-27 03:10:32 +0200neurocyte578neurocyte57
2021-06-27 03:19:11 +0200 <qrpnxz> dang, id also clashes
2021-06-27 03:19:13 +0200 <qrpnxz> terrible
2021-06-27 03:19:25 +0200acarrico(~acarrico@dhcp-68-142-39-249.greenmountainaccess.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-27 03:19:43 +0200Deide(~Deide@user/deide) (Quit: Seeee yaaaa)
2021-06-27 03:23:01 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:5302:7b00:a26f:1df0:afaa:6dfd) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-27 03:23:45 +0200 <yushyin> qrpnxz: you can hide some imports from prelude e.g. import Prelude hiding (id, (.))
2021-06-27 03:24:30 +0200 <qrpnxz> idk how to do that in ghci. Regardless i think cat in prelude would be better no?
2021-06-27 03:24:57 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:533e:6d00:fca2:116b:2879:8d6d)
2021-06-27 03:26:28 +0200 <janus> % set -XNoImplicitPrelude
2021-06-27 03:26:28 +0200 <yahb> janus: ; <interactive>:109:6: error:; * Data constructor not in scope: XNoImplicitPrelude :: ASetter s t a b -> b -> s -> t; * Perhaps you meant `ImplicitPrelude' (imported from Language.Haskell.TH)
2021-06-27 03:26:59 +0200 <janus> % :set -XNoImplicitPrelude
2021-06-27 03:26:59 +0200 <yahb> janus:
2021-06-27 03:27:31 +0200 <janus> qrpnxz: yahb is ghci, so if it works here...
2021-06-27 03:28:00 +0200Morrow(~MorrowM_@147.161.12.168) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-27 03:28:29 +0200sheepduck(~sheepduck@cpe98524a8cef7c-cm98524a8cef7a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
2021-06-27 03:28:54 +0200jespada(~jespada@90.254.247.46) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-06-27 03:29:16 +0200 <qrpnxz> unfortunately i also have the problem that i keep having to import the universe every time i want to play around, so if i do that I'll have to import even more stuff probably, but maybe it'll be around the same
2021-06-27 03:29:36 +0200jespada(~jespada@90.254.247.46)
2021-06-27 03:30:18 +0200 <qrpnxz> and it still clashes with Data.Function, so i have to especially import that as well
2021-06-27 03:31:57 +0200 <qrpnxz> I can't even do the hiding syntax with :m + 😩️
2021-06-27 03:32:07 +0200 <yushyin> you can create a cabal project with a single source file, where you import/hide all you want and start a repl with that source file
2021-06-27 03:32:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-27 03:32:13 +0200 <qrpnxz> was just about to say lol
2021-06-27 03:32:17 +0200 <qrpnxz> gonna have to do that
2021-06-27 03:32:35 +0200sheepduck(~sheepduck@cpe98524a8cef7c-cm98524a8cef7a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Client Quit)
2021-06-27 03:32:52 +0200 <nshepperd> i have a big pile of imports in ~/.ghci
2021-06-27 03:32:55 +0200 <geekosaur> you can also use import syntax in ghci
2021-06-27 03:33:13 +0200 <geekosaur> :m predates that
2021-06-27 03:34:44 +0200 <qrpnxz> is .ghci just a file that gets loaded every time
2021-06-27 03:34:52 +0200sheepduck(~sheepduck@user/sheepduck)
2021-06-27 03:34:53 +0200 <geekosaur> yes
2021-06-27 03:35:21 +0200 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/ghci.html#the-ghci-and-haskeline-fi…
2021-06-27 03:35:21 +0200 <qrpnxz> cool i'll put it there then thx
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2021-06-27 03:52:04 +0200_________(~nobody@user//x-7881368) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-27 03:57:55 +0200 <qrpnxz> #haskellmoment https://termbin.com/obf5
2021-06-27 03:58:18 +0200pfurla(~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net)
2021-06-27 04:00:42 +0200bilegeek(~bilegeek@2600:1008:b015:3e96:6f34:1a42:6ac5:3b86)
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2021-06-27 04:05:32 +0200mpt(~tom@2a02:908:1862:49e0::6)
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2021-06-27 04:06:16 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-27 04:06:27 +0200 <qrpnxz> looks like ghci can even pull some data structures, but not data.vector
2021-06-27 04:16:45 +0200mpt(~tom@2a02:908:1862:49e0::6) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2021-06-27 04:25:01 +0200hrnz(~ulli@irc.plumbing) (Quit: das ist mir zu bld hier; bb)
2021-06-27 04:25:23 +0200hrnz(~ulli@irc.plumbing)
2021-06-27 04:27:05 +0200 <jophish> <qrpnxz "#haskellmoment https://termbin.c"> hahahaha
2021-06-27 04:27:19 +0200 <qrpnxz> 😁️
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2021-06-27 04:32:36 +0200finn_elija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2021-06-27 04:32:36 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (cadmium.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services)))
2021-06-27 04:32:36 +0200finn_elijaFinnElija
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2021-06-27 04:39:34 +0200 <shachaf> Matrix replies in IRC are the worst. I really wish they'd disable it or people stopped doing it.
2021-06-27 04:41:09 +0200 <qrpnxz> can you give an example
2021-06-27 04:41:28 +0200_________(~nobody@user//x-7881368) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-27 04:42:06 +0200 <shachaf> The above.
2021-06-27 04:42:59 +0200 <qrpnxz> ah, seemed fine to me but alright
2021-06-27 04:43:30 +0200ph88(~ph88@2a02:8109:9e00:7e5c:7c55:3c65:74e1:3dc5)
2021-06-27 04:43:34 +0200 <geekosaur> I've seen worse (how editing messages shows up, for example. May be element.io instead of matrix in general)
2021-06-27 04:49:51 +0200vicfred_(~vicfred@89.46.114.138)
2021-06-27 04:50:46 +0200td_(~td@muedsl-82-207-238-164.citykom.de) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-27 04:51:42 +0200_________(~nobody@user//x-7881368)
2021-06-27 04:52:38 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
2021-06-27 04:52:39 +0200vicfred(~vicfred@user/vicfred) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 04:52:41 +0200td_(~td@94.134.91.75)
2021-06-27 04:57:12 +0200Morrow(~MorrowM_@147.161.14.179)
2021-06-27 04:57:29 +0200Guest79(~Guest79@202.83.104.81)
2021-06-27 04:57:34 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-27 04:57:37 +0200 <hrnz> I recommend using https://paste.xinu.at/eiUvJX/ with weechat
2021-06-27 04:57:44 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2021-06-27 04:58:05 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@188.71.193.140)
2021-06-27 04:59:06 +0200 <jophish> <shachaf "Matrix replies in IRC are the wo"> I guess there's no idiomatic way of replying to specific messages in plain IRC
2021-06-27 04:59:12 +0200 <jophish> (doing it once more so I can see what it's like)
2021-06-27 04:59:26 +0200 <jophish> oh, that's not too bad...
2021-06-27 05:01:13 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-06-27 05:01:33 +0200 <shachaf> It looks like you're attributing what you're saying to me.
2021-06-27 05:02:57 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-06-27 05:02:58 +0200 <sm> it could be refined a bit
2021-06-27 05:03:16 +0200 <sm> but at least they keep it to one line now
2021-06-27 05:06:00 +0200 <jophish> well, it's got a closing `>`
2021-06-27 05:06:03 +0200 <sm> maybe it looks different in shachaf's irc client
2021-06-27 05:06:49 +0200Guest79(~Guest79@202.83.104.81) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-06-27 05:08:45 +0200derelict(~derelict@user/derelict) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-27 05:08:59 +0200 <nshepperd> it's IRC convention for quotes to be rendered as "<bob> what bob said" (because that's how many clients render chat logs)
2021-06-27 05:09:16 +0200 <nshepperd> using triangle brackets as a form of address is completely backward
2021-06-27 05:09:47 +0200 <nshepperd> given that
2021-06-27 05:11:31 +0200gregberns_(sid315709@id-315709.brockwell.irccloud.com)
2021-06-27 05:14:01 +0200MorrowM(~MorrowM_@147.161.9.139)
2021-06-27 05:15:43 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@188.71.193.140) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-06-27 05:15:56 +0200Morrow(~MorrowM_@147.161.14.179) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2021-06-27 05:23:31 +0200dyeplexer(~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer)
2021-06-27 05:33:17 +0200pfurla(~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-06-27 05:33:41 +0200 <qrpnxz> TIL that haskell doesn't optimized by default RIP
2021-06-27 05:33:55 +0200 <qrpnxz> i've been missing out man
2021-06-27 05:34:42 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:c4e3:f231:bc2a:37da) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-27 05:36:19 +0200 <qrpnxz> ah fuck, it's a beast
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2021-06-27 07:42:38 +0200ubuntu(~ubuntu@ec2-54-201-230-197.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com)
2021-06-27 07:42:38 +0200ubuntueco
2021-06-27 07:42:53 +0200alx741(~alx741@181.196.69.41) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2021-06-27 07:46:05 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2021-06-27 07:46:11 +0200 <eco> Are there ways to make ghc use less memory when compiling? Even just compiling lens on a 2GB VPS results in a linux kernel hang.
2021-06-27 07:47:39 +0200Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@nwcsnbsc03w-47-54-173-93.dhcp-dynamic.fibreop.nb.bellaliant.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-27 07:47:40 +0200 <c_wraith> usually the major memory use is linking
2021-06-27 07:47:58 +0200Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@nwcsnbsc03w-47-54-173-93.dhcp-dynamic.fibreop.nb.bellaliant.net)
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2021-06-27 07:59:05 +0200gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2021-06-27 08:02:50 +0200matsurago(~matsurago@nttkyo1534237.tkyo.nt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp)
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2021-06-27 08:07:07 +0200sleym(~sleym@209.58.128.51) (Quit: sleym)
2021-06-27 08:09:17 +0200 <dsal> eco: You're going to have a hard time without RAM. For that type of scenario, I tend to use cachix on nixos.
2021-06-27 08:13:10 +0200sleym(~sleym@209.58.128.51)
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2021-06-27 08:16:43 +0200Gurkenglas(~Gurkengla@dslb-002-203-144-156.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
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2021-06-27 09:13:16 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@188.71.193.140)
2021-06-27 09:15:11 +0200bitmapper(uid464869@id-464869.tooting.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
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2021-06-27 09:23:50 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d0c72b9515dd29d5fa98a40466.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-06-27 09:26:31 +0200jneira_(~jneira_@131.red-79-155-1.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-06-27 09:32:00 +0200Erutuon(~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 09:32:04 +0200 <qrpnxz> I'm trying to do a parallel fold, but i'm getting some spooky unfusing where somehow where one computation finished before another even though they are both supposed to be happening in the same pass, and the result of both should happen at the same time. I suppose somehow the ghc could figure out that they are parallel, separate the computation, then actually like put them in separate coroutines and then s
2021-06-27 09:32:05 +0200 <qrpnxz> omehow one finished first. But that sounds way too fancy. I got no other explanation though 😄️
2021-06-27 09:32:50 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@188.71.193.140) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-27 09:33:21 +0200 <sm[m]> eco: -j1 to build one thing at a time. --ghc-options='+RTS -M1G -RTS' to encourage ghc to use that much heap
2021-06-27 09:34:09 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-06-27 09:34:47 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@188.71.193.140)
2021-06-27 09:35:25 +0200a6a45081-2b83(~aditya@122.163.205.132)
2021-06-27 09:35:43 +0200 <a6a45081-2b83> what is the technical name for operators such as (5+) or (*2)?
2021-06-27 09:37:25 +0200 <c_wraith> "sections" is probably what you're looking for
2021-06-27 09:38:09 +0200shutdown_-h_now(~arjan@82-75-187-100.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2021-06-27 09:40:31 +0200 <a6a45081-2b83> c_wraith: thanks!
2021-06-27 09:40:42 +0200a6a45081-2b83(~aditya@122.163.205.132) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2021-06-27 09:45:40 +0200tinwood(~tinwood@general.default.akavanagh.uk0.bigv.io)
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2021-06-27 09:45:40 +0200tinwood(~tinwood@canonical/tinwood)
2021-06-27 09:45:42 +0200delYsid(~user@84-115-55-45.cable.dynamic.surfer.at)
2021-06-27 09:46:26 +0200fendor(~fendor@178.115.128.40.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2021-06-27 09:47:11 +0200 <tomsmeding> eco: no, add swap :p
2021-06-27 09:47:13 +0200 <delYsid> How does haskell treat pattern matches of constant types passed to a function. I.e., say I have data Foo = Foo | Bar and a function f Foo = 1; f Bar = 2 Is calling "f Foo" somewhere equivalent to a function fFoo = 1, or does the matching happen at runtime?
2021-06-27 09:47:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> there are some things you can try but in my experience, 2GB is just not enough
2021-06-27 09:47:46 +0200 <tomsmeding> (for the heaviest packages like lens/aeson/vector)
2021-06-27 09:48:09 +0200 <c_wraith> delYsid: when compiled with optimizations, that should be inlined/simplified at compile time
2021-06-27 09:48:23 +0200 <c_wraith> delYsid: but to make sure, examine the core ghc generates
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2021-06-27 10:49:31 +0200Eoco(~ian@x-160-94-179-157.acm.umn.edu)
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2021-06-27 10:52:21 +0200Hecate(~mariposa@163.172.211.189) (Changing host)
2021-06-27 10:52:21 +0200Hecate(~mariposa@user/hecate)
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2021-06-27 11:02:08 +0200mniip(mniip@libera/staff/mniip) (*.net *.split)
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2021-06-27 11:21:12 +0200mastarija(~mastarija@31.217.22.187)
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2021-06-27 11:37:34 +0200 <qrpnxz> ok i managed to do the parallel fold really nicely with arrows cool!
2021-06-27 11:38:52 +0200gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
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2021-06-27 11:53:52 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2021-06-27 11:53:52 +0200img(~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-06-27 11:55:25 +0200img(~img@user/img)
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2021-06-27 11:59:18 +0200Ariakenom(~Ariakenom@c83-255-154-140.bredband.tele2.se)
2021-06-27 12:00:10 +0200img(~img@user/img) (Client Quit)
2021-06-27 12:01:53 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:7930:a54c:f178:5c1a)
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2021-06-27 12:03:46 +0200xsperry(~as@user/xsperry) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-27 12:04:33 +0200 <zzz> what does safe mean in 'instance [safe] Monad (State s)' ?
2021-06-27 12:05:03 +0200madep(~madep@ptr-823eojuutabnmmm63sa.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2021-06-27 12:06:59 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:7930:a54c:f178:5c1a) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-27 12:07:01 +0200Guest5091(~Meh@202.14.120.46) (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-06-27 12:12:23 +0200madep(~madep@ptr-823eojuutabnmmm63sa.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-06-27 12:15:19 +0200 <int-e> Apparently it means that the instance was defined in a Safe module, which affects resolving overlapping instances in Safe mode: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/compiler/GHC/Core/InstEnv.hs#L917-926
2021-06-27 12:18:20 +0200Morrow(~MorrowM_@147.161.9.139) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-27 12:20:53 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
2021-06-27 12:21:11 +0200oxide(~lambda@user/oxide)
2021-06-27 12:30:24 +0200mastarija(~mastarija@31.217.22.187) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-27 12:31:51 +0200mastarija(~mastarija@31.217.22.187)
2021-06-27 12:34:04 +0200 <juri_> so, i've come to the conclusion that stan is very good for forcing you to handle error conditions with error.
2021-06-27 12:34:15 +0200xsperry(~as@user/xsperry)
2021-06-27 12:35:44 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2021-06-27 12:35:58 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@188.71.193.140)
2021-06-27 12:39:53 +0200 <zzz> int-e: thans
2021-06-27 12:41:21 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@188.71.193.140) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-06-27 12:41:24 +0200 <zzz> so should i be using Control.Monad.State instead of State?
2021-06-27 12:42:53 +0200 <zzz> really confusing to have a safe tag for "code that is untrusted by the ghc user"
2021-06-27 12:45:07 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-27 12:45:09 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:216:8200:d457:9189:7843:1dbd)
2021-06-27 12:53:01 +0200Ariakenom(~Ariakenom@c83-255-154-140.bredband.tele2.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-06-27 12:54:59 +0200hegstal(~hegstal@2a02:c7f:7604:8a00:c6b4:633:2502:e963)
2021-06-27 12:59:41 +0200Meh(~Meh@202.14.120.46)
2021-06-27 13:00:05 +0200MehGuest3668
2021-06-27 13:00:14 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-27 13:00:24 +0200Guest3668(~Meh@202.14.120.46) (Client Quit)
2021-06-27 13:07:27 +0200hendursa1(~weechat@user/hendursaga) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-27 13:09:21 +0200 <int-e> zzz: Well, the safety is ensured by the compiler. It's a matter of perspective. (One of my favorite definitions from security is "a trusted system is a system that can break security")
2021-06-27 13:10:09 +0200hendursa1(~weechat@user/hendursaga)
2021-06-27 13:12:44 +0200Topsi(~Tobias@dyndsl-037-138-064-045.ewe-ip-backbone.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-27 13:13:14 +0200pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655)
2021-06-27 13:14:06 +0200mastarija(~mastarija@31.217.22.187) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-27 13:14:11 +0200 <qrpnxz> what does it mean that there's a tilde before a tuple in parameter lists? e.g. swap ~(x, y) = (y, x)
2021-06-27 13:17:02 +0200img(~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-06-27 13:18:35 +0200img(~img@user/img)
2021-06-27 13:18:56 +0200 <Rembane> qrpnxz: It's a lazy pattern match, with all it entails. :)
2021-06-27 13:19:18 +0200 <qrpnxz> hmm, ok. i guess that term is easier to google
2021-06-27 13:19:32 +0200jneira_(~jneira_@131.red-79-155-1.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-06-27 13:19:40 +0200 <Rembane> qrpnxz: There's a Haskell wiki page about it: https://wiki.haskell.org/Lazy_pattern_match
2021-06-27 13:20:46 +0200 <qrpnxz> mm, nice
2021-06-27 13:23:01 +0200matsurago(~matsurago@nttkyo1534237.tkyo.nt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving)
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2021-06-27 13:33:23 +0200mastarija(~mastarija@31.217.22.187)
2021-06-27 13:34:58 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 13:46:23 +0200derelict(~derelict@user/derelict)
2021-06-27 13:48:35 +0200Ariakenom(~Ariakenom@c83-255-154-140.bredband.tele2.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-27 13:48:50 +0200Ariakenom(~Ariakenom@c83-255-154-140.bredband.tele2.se)
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2021-06-27 13:55:52 +0200tremon(~tremon@217-63-61-89.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2021-06-27 14:03:34 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:7930:a54c:f178:5c1a)
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2021-06-27 14:11:01 +0200 <zzz> qrpnxz: "irrefutable patterns"
2021-06-27 14:13:33 +0200Ariakenom(~Ariakenom@c83-255-154-140.bredband.tele2.se) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2021-06-27 14:25:58 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
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2021-06-27 15:01:07 +0200Nahra(~user@static.161.95.99.88.clients.your-server.de)
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2021-06-27 15:32:54 +0200PotatoGim_(sid99505@id-99505.tooting.irccloud.com) ()
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2021-06-27 15:49:29 +0200slowButPresent(~slowButPr@user/slowbutpresent)
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2021-06-27 16:34:17 +0200Morrow(~MorrowM_@147.161.9.139)
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2021-06-27 17:27:35 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-06-27 17:28:15 +0200 <heath> slack
2021-06-27 17:28:19 +0200 <heath> womp :)
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2021-06-27 18:00:36 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-27 18:01:00 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-06-27 18:03:02 +0200mc47(~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
2021-06-27 18:03:25 +0200sekun(~sekun@180.190.208.125)
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2021-06-27 18:03:41 +0200 <sekun> Anyone know if this is any good? https://academy.mondaymorninghaskell.com/p/practical-haskell
2021-06-27 18:03:52 +0200 <sekun> There are no reviews for that. Hard to really gauge if the $297 is worth it
2021-06-27 18:06:02 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 18:06:34 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:7930:a54c:f178:5c1a)
2021-06-27 18:07:39 +0200 <[exa]> sekun: I've heard mixed opinions on that here
2021-06-27 18:07:55 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@ip-213-49-189-31.dsl.scarlet.be) (Read error: No route to host)
2021-06-27 18:08:40 +0200 <[exa]> imo you can get more practical haskell just by idling here :D
2021-06-27 18:08:40 +0200shredder(~user@user/shredder) (Quit: quitting)
2021-06-27 18:08:52 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@188.71.193.140)
2021-06-27 18:08:59 +0200shredder(~user@user/shredder)
2021-06-27 18:09:29 +0200 <[exa]> OTOH if you need to jump to industry and start spewing servant apps with elm frontends ASAP, $300 ain't that much, right?
2021-06-27 18:10:57 +0200 <[exa]> (kinda wondering about the added value above the standard tutorials of the libraries referenced there)
2021-06-27 18:11:09 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:7930:a54c:f178:5c1a) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-27 18:11:39 +0200 <sekun> hmmm yeah i think that's a good point
2021-06-27 18:12:12 +0200 <sekun> i do try to idle here hahah sometimes i forget to open hexchat
2021-06-27 18:12:33 +0200 <[exa]> sekun: anything specific you need to learn btw?
2021-06-27 18:12:56 +0200Chooch(~Cakeface@216.162.110.89) (Leaving)
2021-06-27 18:13:45 +0200 <sekun> it's pretty much elm + servant, or elm + scotty if none exist. just wanna try out making somewhat useful to experiment
2021-06-27 18:14:35 +0200 <sekun> i noticed materials about building (and finishing) a simple app (db, front-end, back-end) don't exist
2021-06-27 18:15:02 +0200 <sekun> at least, not easily accessible without shelling out money for books and whatnot
2021-06-27 18:16:35 +0200acarrico(~acarrico@dhcp-68-142-39-249.greenmountainaccess.net)
2021-06-27 18:17:06 +0200fendor(~fendor@178.165.168.249.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2021-06-27 18:17:20 +0200 <[exa]> well, everyone kinda assumes that hs programmers have already tried that in other languages and don't need guidance on what should do what
2021-06-27 18:17:33 +0200 <sekun> ah that makes a lot of sense
2021-06-27 18:17:42 +0200 <[exa]> which is bad for tutorials right. :D
2021-06-27 18:18:21 +0200 <[exa]> so technically it boils down to design of the "glue parts", ie. API and SQL queries
2021-06-27 18:18:26 +0200 <[exa]> (and well, schema)
2021-06-27 18:18:46 +0200Nahra(~user@static.161.95.99.88.clients.your-server.de)
2021-06-27 18:18:53 +0200Guest33(~textual@c-107-4-204-12.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-27 18:19:04 +0200 <[exa]> once you get these, just following scotty + selda + elm tutorial should be pretty easy
2021-06-27 18:20:27 +0200jao(~jao@cpc103048-sgyl39-2-0-cust502.18-2.cable.virginm.net)
2021-06-27 18:21:18 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-27 18:21:32 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@8.21.10.15)
2021-06-27 18:22:46 +0200 <sekun> i was wondering why they named it selda, if it had any reference to legend of zelda. turns out yeah
2021-06-27 18:22:55 +0200 <sekun> cool looks like a thin sql wrapper
2021-06-27 18:23:10 +0200 <sekun> i'll check it out
2021-06-27 18:23:22 +0200TranquilEcho(~grom@user/tranquilecho)
2021-06-27 18:23:28 +0200 <sekun> i'll probably abstain from purchasing that for now and see if i can fumble my way to something functional
2021-06-27 18:23:46 +0200warnz(~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:eca1:bc9d:4345:931f)
2021-06-27 18:24:38 +0200 <sekun> i usually see you online every time i hop on here hahah
2021-06-27 18:26:02 +0200mastarija(~mastarija@31.217.22.187) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2021-06-27 18:36:43 +0200chomwitt(~Pitsikoko@athedsl-16082.home.otenet.gr)
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2021-06-27 18:43:28 +0200brandonh(~brandonh@151.46.93.174)
2021-06-27 18:45:21 +0200ikex1(ash@user/ikex)
2021-06-27 18:45:53 +0200 <c_wraith> oh yeah. I wanted to try out rel8. But... I don't actually have a database. Makes it awkward.
2021-06-27 18:46:45 +0200ikex(ash@user/ikex) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-06-27 18:46:45 +0200ikex1ikex
2021-06-27 18:46:50 +0200warnz(~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:eca1:bc9d:4345:931f)
2021-06-27 18:47:18 +0200 <sm[m]> @sekun:libera.chat: have you read the yesod book ?
2021-06-27 18:47:18 +0200 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
2021-06-27 18:47:21 +0200MorrowM(~MorrowM_@bzq-110-168-31-106.red.bezeqint.net)
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2021-06-27 18:49:32 +0200 <sm[m]> also IHP probably has a nice tutorial; also there have been random posts describing full real world web apps which are a bit hard to find of course
2021-06-27 18:50:26 +0200amahl(~amahl@dsl-jklbng12-54fbca-64.dhcp.inet.fi)
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2021-06-27 18:57:57 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:7930:a54c:f178:5c1a)
2021-06-27 18:59:38 +0200 <dminuoso> c_wraith: Nobody is going to convince me that their "fancy pants SQL abstraction is better than SQL"
2021-06-27 18:59:54 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv)
2021-06-27 19:01:00 +0200 <c_wraith> I don't "better than SQL". I want convenient for common cases and easy enough to switch to SQL outside of them.
2021-06-27 19:01:41 +0200 <dminuoso> The overhead of learning "a completely custom and strange abstraction" usually beats using SQL that you already know.
2021-06-27 19:01:55 +0200 <c_wraith> the big thing I want library support for, especially in Haskell, is marshalling query parameters and unmarshalling results.
2021-06-27 19:02:00 +0200 <dminuoso> I find that with these database layers you end up studying these DSLs to know how to make them spit out the SQL query you already have in your mind
2021-06-27 19:02:16 +0200 <dminuoso> Well, all the -simple libraries give you that.
2021-06-27 19:02:25 +0200 <c_wraith> very painfully
2021-06-27 19:02:43 +0200 <c_wraith> I want something join-aware
2021-06-27 19:02:45 +0200amahl(~amahl@dsl-jklbng12-54fbca-64.dhcp.inet.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-27 19:02:59 +0200 <dminuoso> The main selling point of rel8 and friends is that it propagates the schema types throughout the type system, right through queries.
2021-06-27 19:03:08 +0200 <Rembane> dminuoso: Does it work?
2021-06-27 19:03:24 +0200 <dminuoso> Im sure it does, there's a few haskell libraries that do
2021-06-27 19:03:40 +0200 <dminuoso> But the price is that you have to use an exotic eDSL
2021-06-27 19:03:51 +0200 <dminuoso> Maybe this is the place where TH would be ideal
2021-06-27 19:04:06 +0200 <Rembane> That's potentially painful. I'll have to take a look at rel8 some day.
2021-06-27 19:04:11 +0200amahl(~amahl@dsl-jklbng12-54fbca-64.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-06-27 19:04:28 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-06-27 19:04:46 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2021-06-27 19:05:00 +0200 <boxscape> could one make/does there exist a library where you write a native SQL query in a quasiquote and it typechecks that?
2021-06-27 19:05:08 +0200 <boxscape> or is there something I'm not thinking of preventing that from existing?
2021-06-27 19:05:11 +0200 <c_wraith> thats the thing about rel8. it's not an exotic DSL. it's a normal Haskell DSL
2021-06-27 19:05:25 +0200 <dminuoso> boxscape: That's sort of what I was proposing. You'd need at least TH power for that.
2021-06-27 19:05:25 +0200 <boxscape> (I haven't really used quasiquotes)
2021-06-27 19:05:30 +0200 <boxscape> ah, okay
2021-06-27 19:05:55 +0200 <c_wraith> quasiquotes are essentially String -> Q Exp
2021-06-27 19:05:58 +0200 <dminuoso> boxscape: QQ gives you simple `String -> AST` functions.
2021-06-27 19:06:03 +0200 <dminuoso> That GHC knows to splice
2021-06-27 19:06:06 +0200 <dminuoso> They cant do anything else
2021-06-27 19:06:18 +0200 <boxscape> right, okay
2021-06-27 19:06:19 +0200 <c_wraith> or Q [Decl], in that context.
2021-06-27 19:06:47 +0200 <c_wraith> well, they can run arbitrary IO code at compile time.
2021-06-27 19:06:52 +0200 <dminuoso> QQ can?
2021-06-27 19:07:01 +0200 <c_wraith> the Q monad can
2021-06-27 19:07:50 +0200 <dminuoso> Though, I guess, perhaps parametrized QQs could be used..
2021-06-27 19:07:55 +0200 <c_wraith> so they can validate your query against the database, if they're set up that way.
2021-06-27 19:08:12 +0200mpt(~tom@2001:41b8:83c:fa01:9f51:88b4:dd95:965a)
2021-06-27 19:08:21 +0200 <dminuoso> Maybe this is actually something worth exploring
2021-06-27 19:08:22 +0200 <c_wraith> that has a lot of problems that basically match the benefits, unfortunately
2021-06-27 19:09:00 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@ip-213-49-189-31.dsl.scarlet.be)
2021-06-27 19:09:28 +0200 <c_wraith> (do you want compiling to need a running database? how do you handle migrations? etc)
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2021-06-27 19:13:00 +0200neo(~neo3@cpe-292712.ip.primehome.com)
2021-06-27 19:14:26 +0200wallymathieu(~wallymath@81-234-151-21-no94.tbcn.telia.com)
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2021-06-27 19:19:49 +0200brandonh(~brandonh@151.82.33.7)
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2021-06-27 19:23:38 +0200LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten)
2021-06-27 19:24:37 +0200mpt(~tom@2001:41b8:83c:fa01:9f51:88b4:dd95:965a) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-27 19:27:28 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-27 19:28:24 +0200 <dminuoso> c_wraith: It might not need a running database.
2021-06-27 19:28:35 +0200 <dminuoso> Generally it would be enough to just have schema specifications
2021-06-27 19:28:45 +0200 <dminuoso> And some startup glue code that ensures the codified schema and the database match
2021-06-27 19:32:34 +0200 <Gurkenglas> Is there a variant of Monad m where (>>=) is m s t a -> (a -> m t o b) -> m s o b? Does it have its own do notation?
2021-06-27 19:34:05 +0200 <shachaf> Yes, this is called "indexed monad".
2021-06-27 19:34:40 +0200 <shachaf> GHC lets you overload do notation already, so I think it works with indexed monads if you define it.
2021-06-27 19:34:55 +0200 <zzz> what's the elegant way of doing something like multiple inserts on a Map?
2021-06-27 19:36:32 +0200 <Gurkenglas> oh yes right i saw this once! neat. (i was reading a book on category theory and it said an adjunction induces a monad and i went "huh, State s is induced that way and (s,) adjoint (s->) but can i find a way to call that adjunction natural in s and can i transport this to the state monad?")
2021-06-27 19:37:23 +0200 <Gurkenglas> and yeah https://kseo.github.io/posts/2017-01-12-indexed-monads.html gives it do notation
2021-06-27 19:38:43 +0200 <zzz> jkj
2021-06-27 19:39:36 +0200 <Gurkenglas> zzz, more context. what is the meaning of the map entries
2021-06-27 19:41:39 +0200 <zzz> i just want to avoid doing: m' = Map.insert ... m ; m'' = Map.insert ... m' ; etc...
2021-06-27 19:42:53 +0200 <shachaf> You can have a list of insertions.
2021-06-27 19:43:32 +0200 <neo> foldl' on a list should be what you are looking for.
2021-06-27 19:43:53 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-27 19:44:56 +0200Guest33(~textual@c-107-4-204-12.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-06-27 19:45:03 +0200Guest33(~textual@c-107-4-204-12.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
2021-06-27 19:48:51 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2021-06-27 19:49:04 +0200mpt(~tom@2a00:20:8017:8a04:ba09:ca8e:505f:8d30)
2021-06-27 19:50:34 +0200 <infinisil> zzz: fromList + union
2021-06-27 19:50:54 +0200warnz(~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:eca1:bc9d:4345:931f)
2021-06-27 19:51:00 +0200 <Gurkenglas> zzz, if you have precisely two uses of Map.insert in your code and they're consecutive, you can do Map.insert k v . Map.insert k' v'
2021-06-27 19:52:12 +0200 <Gurkenglas> if you touch this map all the time and you're actually doing imperative programming, consider the state monad
2021-06-27 19:52:25 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-27 19:52:51 +0200safinaskar(~safinaska@109.252.90.89)
2021-06-27 19:53:14 +0200 <Gurkenglas> if additionally you have multiple things you're touching all the time and nested data structures, consider additionally using lens
2021-06-27 19:54:34 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@188.71.193.140) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 19:55:21 +0200warnz(~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:eca1:bc9d:4345:931f) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-27 19:55:21 +0200 <zzz> thank you all
2021-06-27 19:55:26 +0200v01d4lph4(~v01d4lph4@user/v01d4lph4) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-27 19:55:49 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@8.21.10.15) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-27 19:56:00 +0200v01d4lph4(~v01d4lph4@user/v01d4lph4)
2021-06-27 19:57:32 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-27 19:58:01 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-06-27 19:58:34 +0200 <dminuoso> Profpatsch: By the way, in hindsight the talk was probably a waste of time. When someone like Rich Hickey holds a talk on Clojure/Conj arguing why Clojure is great and everybody else is wrong, he doesn't even need convincing arguments, his audience already is convinced regardless of what you say.
2021-06-27 19:58:42 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-06-27 20:00:44 +0200v01d4lph4(~v01d4lph4@user/v01d4lph4) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 20:02:38 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-06-27 20:03:01 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@24.105.81.50)
2021-06-27 20:07:25 +0200brandonh(~brandonh@151.82.33.7) (Quit: brandonh)
2021-06-27 20:07:29 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-06-27 20:10:20 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@188.71.193.140)
2021-06-27 20:11:07 +0200Corder_000(~Coder_000@177.10.203.30)
2021-06-27 20:12:45 +0200egoist(~egoist@186.235.82.105)
2021-06-27 20:13:41 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 20:13:58 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-06-27 20:14:27 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn)
2021-06-27 20:15:00 +0200 <qrpnxz> `app = arr $ uncurry id` LOL
2021-06-27 20:15:26 +0200 <dminuoso> % :t arr (uncurry id)
2021-06-27 20:15:26 +0200 <yahb> dminuoso: forall {a :: * -> * -> *} {b} {c}. Arrow a => a (b -> c, b) c
2021-06-27 20:15:55 +0200Guest33(~textual@c-107-4-204-12.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-06-27 20:18:37 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@188.71.193.140) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 20:18:37 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 20:19:56 +0200amahl(~amahl@dsl-jklbng12-54fbca-64.dhcp.inet.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-27 20:21:09 +0200takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
2021-06-27 20:22:27 +0200amahl(~amahl@dsl-jklbng12-54fbca-64.dhcp.inet.fi)
2021-06-27 20:23:11 +0200safinaskar(~safinaska@109.252.90.89) ()
2021-06-27 20:23:27 +0200mpt(~tom@2a00:20:8017:8a04:ba09:ca8e:505f:8d30) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-27 20:24:13 +0200fendor(~fendor@178.165.168.249.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-27 20:25:01 +0200LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-27 20:25:21 +0200Corder_000(~Coder_000@177.10.203.30) (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1)
2021-06-27 20:25:36 +0200fendor(~fendor@178.165.168.249.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2021-06-27 20:28:15 +0200wroathe_(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-06-27 20:28:29 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 20:28:48 +0200 <maerwald> dminuoso: clojure is a
2021-06-27 20:28:57 +0200 <maerwald> troll language
2021-06-27 20:29:43 +0200Ariakenom(~Ariakenom@c83-255-154-140.bredband.tele2.se) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 20:29:52 +0200 <maerwald> "Oh, you passed a different type, lemme do something entirely different, like make your fronted page blank"
2021-06-27 20:30:19 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-06-27 20:30:24 +0200chronon(~chronon@user/chronon) (Quit: leaving)
2021-06-27 20:30:37 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@8.21.10.15)
2021-06-27 20:31:53 +0200 <dminuoso> I dont really want to bash languages.
2021-06-27 20:32:01 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@188.71.193.140)
2021-06-27 20:32:05 +0200 <maerwald> I'm not a friend of type classes, because they can already introduce similar confusion, but generally, a typeclass has a common theme
2021-06-27 20:32:24 +0200Ariakenom(~Ariakenom@c83-255-154-140.bredband.tele2.se)
2021-06-27 20:32:30 +0200 <maerwald> Once your function can process arbitrary types, everything goes
2021-06-27 20:33:28 +0200 <maerwald> It's inherent in the language: you can't fix clojure
2021-06-27 20:35:28 +0200 <maerwald> I'm not bashing, I'm providing arguments ;)
2021-06-27 20:37:09 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
2021-06-27 20:38:17 +0200dyeplexer(~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-27 20:38:17 +0200 <dminuoso> fatal: reference is not a tree: 783db292d12d28786612b8eeec7bb920246b72ce
2021-06-27 20:38:28 +0200 <dminuoso> Mmm, cabal has some really rough ux edges at times..
2021-06-27 20:38:42 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2021-06-27 20:38:49 +0200 <dminuoso> Of course I know exactly what the problem is, what I did and what I need to do to fix it..
2021-06-27 20:39:01 +0200 <dminuoso> But if that's the entirety of the error message... *sigh*
2021-06-27 20:39:11 +0200dwt_(~dwt_@c-98-200-58-177.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-27 20:39:22 +0200 <Clint> i almost never use a tree as a reference
2021-06-27 20:39:23 +0200waleee(~waleee@2001:9b0:216:8200:d457:9189:7843:1dbd)
2021-06-27 20:41:14 +0200Ariakenom(~Ariakenom@c83-255-154-140.bredband.tele2.se) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-27 20:41:43 +0200Ariakenom(~Ariakenom@c83-255-154-140.bredband.tele2.se)
2021-06-27 20:42:16 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@8.21.10.15) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-06-27 20:42:40 +0200 <hpc> what's a tree in the context of cabal?
2021-06-27 20:42:55 +0200 <davean> hpc: he's clearly refering to a git repo in a cabal.project
2021-06-27 20:43:33 +0200 <davean> I'm not clear on what error message you'd prefer dminuoso
2021-06-27 20:44:06 +0200 <hpc> ah, i am not used to those commit hashes being called trees
2021-06-27 20:44:37 +0200 <dminuoso> Error while fetching vendored package `foo` via git: fatal: reference is not a tree: 783db292d12d28786612b8eeec7bb920246b72ce
2021-06-27 20:44:38 +0200 <davean> Its NOT a commit hash
2021-06-27 20:44:42 +0200 <dminuoso> davean: Something like that?
2021-06-27 20:44:44 +0200 <davean> hpc: thats a difference
2021-06-27 20:44:50 +0200 <dminuoso> The point is, there's absolutely no context what went wrong where.
2021-06-27 20:44:51 +0200safinaskar(~safinaska@109.252.90.89)
2021-06-27 20:45:02 +0200 <dminuoso> Some random git error means nothing to a cabal user
2021-06-27 20:45:04 +0200 <davean> hpc: git has commits, trees, and treeishs
2021-06-27 20:45:08 +0200 <davean> (also files, etc)
2021-06-27 20:45:12 +0200 <safinaskar> why this doesn't compile? https://godbolt.org/z/hqK4jWz5E
2021-06-27 20:46:06 +0200 <dminuoso> safinaskar: This is due to a restriction in the haskell report
2021-06-27 20:46:44 +0200 <davean> hpc: you usually put a commit, sure, but what it needs is the tree
2021-06-27 20:47:00 +0200 <dminuoso> It's not mentioned very explicitly, but the Haskell report says that lambda (and thus also <- bound) variables must be monomorphic.
2021-06-27 20:47:12 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-06-27 20:47:22 +0200 <dminuoso> It doesn't exactly state why, Im guessing there's type inference reasons?
2021-06-27 20:48:44 +0200zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag)
2021-06-27 20:49:00 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-27 20:50:21 +0200 <dminuoso> Does this require ImpredicativeTypes?
2021-06-27 20:50:23 +0200MQ-17J(~MQ-17J@d14-69-206-129.try.wideopenwest.com)
2021-06-27 20:50:52 +0200 <dminuoso> [[forall a. a]] does seem like an impredicative type
2021-06-27 20:51:30 +0200 <boxscape> this works https://paste.tomsmeding.com/HH5iNOKf
2021-06-27 20:51:53 +0200 <boxscape> (ignore the -XPartialTypeSignatures)
2021-06-27 20:52:45 +0200 <boxscape> interestingly giving the type to the argument instead of to the entire lambda expression does not
2021-06-27 20:53:02 +0200 <safinaskar> my code fails even if i enable ImpredicativeTypes (tested with 9.2.0.20210422 [latest available in ghcup])
2021-06-27 20:53:44 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-27 20:54:01 +0200 <boxscape> your code wouldn't work even if ImpredicativeTypes could fix this because of https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/20020
2021-06-27 20:54:34 +0200talismanick(~user@2601:644:8502:d700::f19d)
2021-06-27 20:55:57 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv)
2021-06-27 21:02:06 +0200 <safinaskar> so? what to do? i want to have polymorphic binding in do. i. e. something like this: do { f :: (forall a. a -> Int) <- .....; ..... f 2 .....; ..... f "o" ..... }
2021-06-27 21:02:12 +0200 <safinaskar> is this possible?
2021-06-27 21:02:59 +0200 <qrpnxz> safinaskar, i think you can do it with let but not with <-
2021-06-27 21:04:34 +0200wroathe_wroathe
2021-06-27 21:06:30 +0200 <boxscape> (Oh, right, my example worked because I forgot the parentheses around (forall a . [[a]])...)
2021-06-27 21:06:32 +0200LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten)
2021-06-27 21:07:50 +0200jess(~jess@libera/staff/jess) ()
2021-06-27 21:07:53 +0200tungki(~Guest54@subs31-116-206-15-16.three.co.id)
2021-06-27 21:09:30 +0200Meh(~Meh@202.14.120.46)
2021-06-27 21:09:55 +0200MehGuest1495
2021-06-27 21:12:08 +0200 <safinaskar> ok, thanks
2021-06-27 21:12:59 +0200Axman6(~Axman6@user/axman6) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-06-27 21:13:06 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2021-06-27 21:13:28 +0200 <boxscape> safinaskar: something like this works https://paste.tomsmeding.com/DpnTBwVd
2021-06-27 21:13:58 +0200 <dminuoso> boxscape: you should even be able to pattern match on the do-bind, no?
2021-06-27 21:14:18 +0200 <dminuoso> Or does this run into the same bug you reported?
2021-06-27 21:14:27 +0200 <dminuoso> I know we talked about this a few days ago, but I cant recall the details
2021-06-27 21:14:35 +0200 <boxscape> dminuoso: no, you're right
2021-06-27 21:14:46 +0200 <boxscape> it works
2021-06-27 21:15:05 +0200 <dminuoso> Then you dont even need impredicative types anymore
2021-06-27 21:15:15 +0200sleym(~sleym@23.81.181.4)
2021-06-27 21:16:30 +0200 <qrpnxz> what is an impredicative type
2021-06-27 21:17:02 +0200 <boxscape> qrpnxz: if you have a type constructor like Maybe and you have a type with forall as an argument to it, e.g. `Maybe (forall a . a -> a)`
2021-06-27 21:17:02 +0200 <Profpatsch> dminuoso: true
2021-06-27 21:17:03 +0200 <dminuoso> qrpnxz: Take [forall a. a] for instance
2021-06-27 21:17:15 +0200 <Profpatsch> dminuoso: though I think not all points are invalid
2021-06-27 21:17:27 +0200 <dminuoso> qrpnxz: In impredicative types, this type is allowed and it is quantified over all types, including itself.
2021-06-27 21:17:33 +0200 <Profpatsch> I mean Hickey is probably on a local maximum
2021-06-27 21:17:34 +0200unyu(~pyon@user/pyon)
2021-06-27 21:17:39 +0200 <Profpatsch> one that is pretty good
2021-06-27 21:17:40 +0200 <qrpnxz> ah
2021-06-27 21:17:49 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 21:17:56 +0200 <safinaskar> boxscape: thanks. i tried to make Id type with kind (* -> * ): https://godbolt.org/z/YhcjvP41x . and now code doesn't compile
2021-06-27 21:18:05 +0200Guest1495(~Meh@202.14.120.46) (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-06-27 21:18:07 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:533e:6d00:c133:b997:3ccf:96a0) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-06-27 21:18:11 +0200kayprish(~kayprish@46.240.143.86)
2021-06-27 21:18:16 +0200 <safinaskar> boxscape: so, this means i need to create special newtype for this particular binding?!
2021-06-27 21:18:25 +0200 <safinaskar> boxscape: this is very ugly
2021-06-27 21:18:45 +0200 <dminuoso> Profpatsch: Im not saying his points are invalid, just that the way he losely reasons mostly to accomodate an audience that claps and cheers at everything he says. :)
2021-06-27 21:18:56 +0200 <dminuoso> is not a way that I care for
2021-06-27 21:18:59 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:533e:6d00:cffe:3614:284d:42ae)
2021-06-27 21:20:06 +0200 <dminuoso> Rich convincing Clojure fans at Clojure Conj that the clojure way is the true way.. well. He summarized a series of SPJ talks in one and a half sentences, and just dismissed it as "he's totally wrong, we all know dynamic is better than static. QED."
2021-06-27 21:20:21 +0200 <boxscape> safinaskar: hm I'm playing around with it but haven't found a better way yet that works
2021-06-27 21:20:22 +0200 <dminuoso> (I paraphrased a bit)
2021-06-27 21:21:03 +0200 <Profpatsch> yeah
2021-06-27 21:21:23 +0200 <boxscape> safinaskar: never mind I have found a way, hold on
2021-06-27 21:23:08 +0200 <boxscape> safinaskar: this _should_ work, but doesn't: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/tOKilQ57 That's because of the GHC issue I posted above. However, translating it into non-do notation _does_ work: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/BZFWmxK9
2021-06-27 21:23:36 +0200 <boxscape> safinaskar: the important thing being the type application @(forall a . a -> a), to let Id know that its argument is supposed to be polymorphic
2021-06-27 21:24:12 +0200 <dminuoso> Profpatsch: The original topic is an interesting subject, I pondered quite a bit about it. At the end there's different audiences. In my experience, with the systems I work with, being absolutely strict with input is worth more than any hypothetical "forward compatibility"
2021-06-27 21:24:21 +0200 <dminuoso> Especially when both the client and server are under your control
2021-06-27 21:24:46 +0200 <boxscape> safinaskar: here's a shorter version that still works: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/OxAE9zhh
2021-06-27 21:24:47 +0200 <dminuoso> Then be as strict as you can, since an unparsed field is likely an error on the sending side.
2021-06-27 21:27:01 +0200 <Profpatsch> dminuoso: I think he conflates “not caring about whether something is there” with “providing defaults when something is not there”
2021-06-27 21:27:03 +0200a6a45081-2b83(~aditya@122.163.205.132)
2021-06-27 21:27:45 +0200 <dminuoso> Judging from the contents its rather "why do I care what other things you send me. I just care about the values i look at"
2021-06-27 21:27:47 +0200 <dminuoso> *context
2021-06-27 21:28:01 +0200 <dminuoso> The true pinnacle of dynamic programming where all you fling around is lists and maps
2021-06-27 21:28:30 +0200 <Rembane> And poo!
2021-06-27 21:28:51 +0200 <dminuoso> To some extend I can understand his love of maps, since they are so nicely compositional. You can just plug values out, merge them together in new fancy ways
2021-06-27 21:29:10 +0200 <dminuoso> The desire for this even in static type sytems can be found in row types research
2021-06-27 21:29:47 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-06-27 21:30:47 +0200 <boxscape> that's the "structural vs nominal" divide rather than the "static vs dynamic" divide, isn't it?
2021-06-27 21:30:53 +0200 <dminuoso> Right
2021-06-27 21:30:57 +0200 <dminuoso> well yes and no
2021-06-27 21:31:03 +0200sagax(~sagax@213.138.71.146) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-27 21:31:03 +0200 <boxscape> (not that you can't have both structural and nominal typing together)
2021-06-27 21:31:15 +0200 <dminuoso> dynamic type systems are inherently nominal
2021-06-27 21:31:48 +0200 <Rembane> Are there no structural dynamic typing systems?
2021-06-27 21:31:55 +0200 <Rembane> *type
2021-06-27 21:32:19 +0200ph88_(~ph88@ip5f5af6fd.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2021-06-27 21:32:21 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2021-06-27 21:32:36 +0200 <safinaskar> boxscape: ok, thanks
2021-06-27 21:33:56 +0200 <boxscape> I suppose checking whether the entire structure matches dynamically probably isn't worth the runtime cost compared to just checking whether the relevant structure matches, which gets you to duck typing
2021-06-27 21:34:28 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 21:34:52 +0200 <Rembane> Both sounds structurally typed to me, it's checked at runtime rather than compile time though.
2021-06-27 21:35:53 +0200boxscapeshrugs
2021-06-27 21:36:01 +0200 <boxscape> wikpedia distinguishes between structural and duck
2021-06-27 21:36:19 +0200ph88^(~ph88@2a02:8109:9e00:7e5c:6024:1b36:f949:e91) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 21:36:24 +0200 <boxscape> though I'm not sure why dynamic typing would be inherently nominal as dminuoso when duck typing exists...
2021-06-27 21:36:29 +0200 <boxscape> s//said
2021-06-27 21:37:49 +0200superbil(~superbil@1-34-176-171.HINET-IP.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 21:45:40 +0200eight(~eight@user/eight)
2021-06-27 21:47:25 +0200tungki(~Guest54@subs31-116-206-15-16.three.co.id) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-06-27 21:47:31 +0200LukeHoersten(~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-27 21:48:21 +0200 <boxscape> Does it go back to the "dynamic type systems aren't actually type systems" thing?
2021-06-27 21:49:16 +0200ph88_(~ph88@ip5f5af6fd.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-27 21:52:30 +0200warnz(~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:eca1:bc9d:4345:931f)
2021-06-27 21:52:43 +0200fendor_(~fendor@178.165.168.249.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2021-06-27 21:53:03 +0200fendorfendor__
2021-06-27 21:53:07 +0200fendor_fendor
2021-06-27 21:53:10 +0200fendor__fendor_
2021-06-27 21:54:19 +0200 <safinaskar> arguing about type systems? here another argument: in typescript (as well as i know) you can get empty list from function returning list of ints and pass it to function accepting list of strings
2021-06-27 21:55:23 +0200 <safinaskar> i. e. you can do something like this haskell code: module X where { f :: [Int]; f = []; g :: [String] -> (); g _ = (); main = return $ g f; }
2021-06-27 21:55:28 +0200 <safinaskar> in haskell this is impossible
2021-06-27 21:56:21 +0200 <monochrom> I can do this in Haskell if you allow me to s/Int/int/ >:)
2021-06-27 21:56:37 +0200 <mjrosenb> lol.
2021-06-27 21:57:15 +0200warnz(~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:eca1:bc9d:4345:931f) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-27 21:57:22 +0200safinaskar(~safinaska@109.252.90.89) ()
2021-06-27 21:57:33 +0200a6a45081-2b83(~aditya@122.163.205.132) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-27 21:58:49 +0200MorrowM(~MorrowM_@bzq-110-168-31-106.red.bezeqint.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-27 21:58:52 +0200 <dminuoso> boxscape: The context is that Rich proposes using maps for many things. This comes from reasoning that "often you need some subset of values of some type", another time you need another subset of values..
2021-06-27 21:59:06 +0200 <dminuoso> Then you might want to compose some subset of this type and then some subset of that type
2021-06-27 21:59:13 +0200MorrowM(~MorrowM_@bzq-110-168-31-106.red.bezeqint.net)
2021-06-27 22:00:24 +0200xsperry(~as@user/xsperry) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-27 22:00:42 +0200 <dminuoso> boxscape: and sorry, I made an incorrect statement here in: "dynamic type systems are inherently nominal"
2021-06-27 22:00:43 +0200 <boxscape> I see
2021-06-27 22:00:51 +0200 <dminuoso> My kid was crying in the background, and I got distracted.
2021-06-27 22:00:53 +0200 <boxscape> okay
2021-06-27 22:00:58 +0200 <boxscape> haha no worries
2021-06-27 22:01:31 +0200 <boxscape> (I hope they're okay)
2021-06-27 22:02:06 +0200 <dminuoso> Sure, its just teething
2021-06-27 22:02:46 +0200 <boxscape> okay, good
2021-06-27 22:03:25 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
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2021-06-27 22:10:17 +0200 <boxscape> @tell safinaskar: Re: polymorphic bindings in do notation, you don't actually need the Id newtype we had, this works: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/4m8w6cuk
2021-06-27 22:10:17 +0200 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
2021-06-27 22:10:59 +0200 <boxscape> wait, did I tell lambdabot to tell this to "safinaskar:" with a colon?
2021-06-27 22:11:11 +0200 <dminuoso> boxscape: mmm, I wonder, couldnt you just mix do-notation with lambda style?
2021-06-27 22:11:21 +0200 <dminuoso> might look odd, but it shouldnt be a problem
2021-06-27 22:11:57 +0200 <boxscape> I suppose so, yeah
2021-06-27 22:11:58 +0200 <boxscape> you mean to get around the bug?
2021-06-27 22:13:11 +0200 <dminuoso> https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/ab50177469e73aee70b7dbf1e52603d9
2021-06-27 22:13:11 +0200 <boxscape> @tell safinaskar Re: polymorphic bindings in do notation, you don't actually need the Id newtype we had, this works: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/4m8w6cuk
2021-06-27 22:13:11 +0200 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
2021-06-27 22:13:12 +0200 <dminuoso> Yeah
2021-06-27 22:13:16 +0200 <dminuoso> boxscape: ^- this works
2021-06-27 22:13:40 +0200 <dminuoso> Oh my, this I have to keep in my bag of tricks.
2021-06-27 22:13:42 +0200 <boxscape> yeah, that's not too bad
2021-06-27 22:13:48 +0200fendor(~fendor@178.165.168.249.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-27 22:13:48 +0200 <boxscape> actually surprised that's not an indentation error
2021-06-27 22:13:56 +0200 <dminuoso> why should it?
2021-06-27 22:14:01 +0200 <dminuoso> do-expressions are just expressions.
2021-06-27 22:14:23 +0200 <dminuoso> and regarding indention, I have no clue how indention rules even work in haskell
2021-06-27 22:14:38 +0200 <boxscape> I would have expected ghc to read s <- getLine as part of the previous do-notation but I guess not
2021-06-27 22:14:43 +0200 <boxscape> (well, it is part of it)
2021-06-27 22:14:44 +0200 <dminuoso> I only write haskell for a living, dont ask me what GHC even considers as valid input
2021-06-27 22:14:50 +0200 <boxscape> hehe
2021-06-27 22:15:06 +0200 <geekosaur> looks like NondecreasingIndentation at work to me
2021-06-27 22:15:12 +0200 <boxscape> ah
2021-06-27 22:16:33 +0200 <dminuoso> if null args then return [] else do
2021-06-27 22:16:51 +0200 <dminuoso> Interesting! Early-return, I had not seen this trick before.
2021-06-27 22:17:05 +0200 <dminuoso> I've had two or three cases where I wanted this
2021-06-27 22:17:30 +0200 <dminuoso> geekosaur: Thanks!
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2021-06-27 23:50:15 +0200 <elvishjerricco> When a haskell process is killed by SIGTERM, what is its exit status? (Assuming the haskell code makes no effort to handle exceptions/signals/etc.)
2021-06-27 23:51:20 +0200 <geekosaur> signals are reported separately from exit statuses
2021-06-27 23:51:29 +0200 <geekosaur> so it'll show signal 15
2021-06-27 23:53:46 +0200notzmv(~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-27 23:53:48 +0200 <elvishjerricco> geekosaur: Right, but I'm interested in the exit status. I was playing with some systemd stuff and decided to use a dummy haskell program (loop on threadDelay) to test some stuff. When I asked systemd to stop the service, it got reported as failed due to exit status
2021-06-27 23:54:00 +0200 <elvishjerricco> I was just wondering if that's because SIGTERM caused the program to exit non-zero
2021-06-27 23:54:14 +0200warnz(~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:eca1:bc9d:4345:931f)
2021-06-27 23:54:15 +0200 <elvishjerricco> or if some other part of my system jankery is messed up
2021-06-27 23:54:20 +0200 <elvishjerricco> systemd*
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