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2021/06/17

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2021-06-17 01:06:54 +0200safinaskar(~safinaska@109.252.90.89) ()
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2021-06-17 01:40:25 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100)
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2021-06-17 01:41:53 +0200ecameron[m](~ecameronm@2001:470:69fc:105::35df)
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2021-06-17 01:45:21 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 01:45:57 +0200 <ecameron[m]> Hey, not sure if this is the currently most active haskell channel but I'm having some issues with writing a simple parser using Text.ParserCombinators.ReadP. I'm just experimenting to see if I've got the concepts down. I belive there is something wrong with my `add` and `mul` parsers but I don't know what, https://paste.tomsmeding.com/hfFJmTiY
2021-06-17 01:46:54 +0200 <monochrom> Did you run into an error message? Did you run into unexpected behaviour?
2021-06-17 01:48:04 +0200 <Axman6> you have char '(' twice
2021-06-17 01:48:09 +0200 <ecameron[m]> It just returns `Nothing` on the input, even just running `runParser expr "add 1 2"` returns nothing
2021-06-17 01:48:12 +0200 <Axman6> probably want char ')'
2021-06-17 01:48:28 +0200 <monochrom> Uh why is mul doing string "add" and Add, add doing string "mult" and Mult? :)
2021-06-17 01:48:29 +0200 <Axman6> (that isn't your problem, but it is a problem :)
2021-06-17 01:49:15 +0200 <Axman6> what in the parser is handling the spaces after the string "add" or "mult"?
2021-06-17 01:49:47 +0200 <ecameron[m]> Ah, maybe I need a `skipSpaces` after that too
2021-06-17 01:50:22 +0200 <Axman6> IS there a IsString instance for ReadP? writing "(" *> expr <* ")" might make picking up these small errors a bit easier
2021-06-17 01:50:33 +0200 <Axman6> but for now, get this style working
2021-06-17 01:51:03 +0200 <Axman6> much1, on nom nom
2021-06-17 01:53:07 +0200 <Axman6> @hoogle ReadP
2021-06-17 01:53:08 +0200 <lambdabot> module Text.ParserCombinators.ReadP
2021-06-17 01:53:08 +0200 <lambdabot> Text.ParserCombinators.ReadP data ReadP a
2021-06-17 01:53:08 +0200 <lambdabot> BasePrelude data ReadP a
2021-06-17 01:54:25 +0200spirgel(spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel)
2021-06-17 01:54:25 +0200 <ecameron[m]> adding `skipSpaces` doesn't change the output (`runParser expr "add 1 2"` still returns `Nothing`) but I do feel like it's getting closer to what the issue is
2021-06-17 01:55:47 +0200 <Axman6> try building it up from parts - waht does runParser (string "add") "add 1 2" return? then runParser (do {string "add"; skipSpaces}) "add 1 2" etc.
2021-06-17 01:55:53 +0200 <Axman6> in ghci
2021-06-17 01:57:04 +0200 <Axman6> looks like there's several places where spaces aren't being handled
2021-06-17 01:57:50 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-17 01:58:54 +0200spirgel(spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-17 01:59:50 +0200 <Axman6> maybe come up with a rule for where spaces should be handled; every bit of syntax which is specific to a parser should handle its own spaces, so always parse the spaces after you use `string` but if you call another parser it is responsible for any spaces that follow it
2021-06-17 02:00:47 +0200warnz(~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:7144:467c:eae6:37e7)
2021-06-17 02:01:06 +0200 <ecameron[m]> Ah, got it. It was the spaces, thanks
2021-06-17 02:01:37 +0200 <Axman6> this is the main reason people pretty quickly implement lexers
2021-06-17 02:03:33 +0200 <ecameron[m]> applicative/monadic parsers still look like magic, just in the type of syntax they provide. I whenever I see a type like `String -> [(a, String)]` in a type I always wonder how you would think to do that and know that it's applicative implementation is going to be helpful
2021-06-17 02:04:03 +0200 <ecameron[m]> But I guess it's just familiarity with that style of coding?
2021-06-17 02:04:31 +0200 <geekosaur> familiarity counts for a lot, yes
2021-06-17 02:05:06 +0200warnz(~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:7144:467c:eae6:37e7) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-06-17 02:05:09 +0200 <Axman6> yeah, it takes a while but you will soon see a lot of parsers are actually just Applicative; it's not huntil you need to do things like "parse a length N, and then parse N things" you don't actually need Monad
2021-06-17 02:06:15 +0200 <Axman6> like your mult parser could be: mult = Mult <$> string "mul" *> skipSpaces *> expr <*> expr (I think)
2021-06-17 02:06:58 +0200 <ecameron[m]> sure, or use ApplicativeDo extension
2021-06-17 02:07:16 +0200 <Axman6> why bother with the extra noise though?
2021-06-17 02:07:42 +0200 <ecameron[m]> the do syntax is easier to read than the applicative style to my eyes
2021-06-17 02:09:15 +0200 <Axman6> if laid out better than IRC allows, the applicative version often reads just as clearly, without the pain of having to name arguments
2021-06-17 02:10:35 +0200spirgel(spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel)
2021-06-17 02:12:10 +0200 <geekosaur> I also find do syntax easier to read, but I trust ApplicativeDo about as far as I can throw it, so.
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2021-06-17 02:25:27 +0200 <Axman6> There are definitely times when monadic style helps, but for small functions applicative style can help a lot: parens = "(" *> expr <* skipSpaces <* ")" is pretty clean
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2021-06-17 04:04:43 +0200spirgel(spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2021-06-17 04:07:53 +0200sbmsr(~pi@104-6-130-18.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2021-06-17 04:13:16 +0200 <jmct> Anyone know of good DSLs for x86_64 (any modern ISS would likely work for my purposes)?
2021-06-17 04:13:25 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-68-83-100-68.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
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2021-06-17 04:28:26 +0200P1RATEZ(piratez@user/p1ratez)
2021-06-17 04:29:06 +0200finn_elija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2021-06-17 04:29:06 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (strontium.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services)))
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2021-06-17 04:29:28 +0200spirgel(spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel)
2021-06-17 04:30:08 +0200slack1256(~slack1256@191.125.99.208)
2021-06-17 04:33:54 +0200spirgel(spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-17 04:36:12 +0200iridescent(~iridescen@41337027.cst.lightpath.net)
2021-06-17 04:36:16 +0200 <iridescent> hi, what does :&~ operator mean?
2021-06-17 04:36:54 +0200 <iridescent> i'm reading code and saw this: data Network = O Weights | Weights :&~ Network
2021-06-17 04:38:18 +0200 <int-e> iridescent: it's a constructor name
2021-06-17 04:38:25 +0200 <ecameron[m]> It's probably an infix type defined in the whatever you're reading
2021-06-17 04:40:06 +0200benin036(~benin@183.82.207.180) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-17 04:40:08 +0200 <int-e> ecameron[m]: no, it's a data constructor for the Network datatype
2021-06-17 04:41:09 +0200qwin(~yaaic@ip-96-43-230-90.dsl.netrevolution.com)
2021-06-17 04:43:10 +0200 <iridescent> what do you guys think about dependent types for machine learning :)
2021-06-17 04:43:21 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-17 04:43:26 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100)
2021-06-17 04:43:52 +0200beka(~beka@mobile-166-171-248-23.mycingular.net)
2021-06-17 04:46:06 +0200spirgel(spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel)
2021-06-17 04:46:19 +0200zebrag(~chris@user/zebrag) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-06-17 04:47:08 +0200 <ecameron[m]> int-e: right yeah, mixed the 'data' and 'type' constructor terms
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2021-06-17 05:52:11 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100)
2021-06-17 05:52:38 +0200spirgel(spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 05:54:01 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-06-17 05:54:53 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@ip-213-49-189-31.dsl.scarlet.be)
2021-06-17 05:56:44 +0200 <jophish> <iridescent "what do you guys think about dep"> FWIW, in the machine learning I've done I've greatly preferred Python to Haskell, as much as it pains me to say it
2021-06-17 05:57:07 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@ip-213-49-189-31.dsl.scarlet.be) (Client Quit)
2021-06-17 05:57:07 +0200 <jophish> but I think this is much less to do with the type system than the huge amount of existing code/examples available for python
2021-06-17 05:57:27 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-17 05:57:41 +0200mikoto-chan(~mikoto-ch@ip-213-49-189-31.dsl.scarlet.be)
2021-06-17 05:57:54 +0200 <jophish> however, many ML programs are run-once where every code path is traversed, so imo types don't really buy you much (as you'll almost certainly discover any errors at runtime)
2021-06-17 06:01:44 +0200Morrow(~Morrow@bzq-110-168-31-106.red.bezeqint.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2021-06-17 06:06:48 +0200alx741(~alx741@181.196.68.42) (Quit: alx741)
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2021-06-17 06:09:21 +0200biberu\(~biberu@user/biberu)
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2021-06-17 06:10:39 +0200 <Axman6> iiis that from Grenade? if not, you should look at Grenade (and also read jle's blog post on using the singletons library, which uses similar ideas as an example)
2021-06-17 06:13:06 +0200warnz(~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:7144:467c:eae6:37e7) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-17 06:16:23 +0200spirgel(spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel)
2021-06-17 06:16:27 +0200 <jophish> ah, mainly from tensorflow
2021-06-17 06:16:31 +0200 <jophish> haven't tried grenade
2021-06-17 06:17:23 +0200alex3(~alex3@BSN-77-82-41.static.siol.net)
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2021-06-17 06:23:47 +0200systemhalted(~systemhal@71-129-231-253.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net)
2021-06-17 06:24:50 +0200jneira_(~jneira_@131.red-79-155-1.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
2021-06-17 06:26:09 +0200AgentM(~agentm@pool-162-83-130-212.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
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2021-06-17 06:33:12 +0200matrixbridge(~matrixbri@2001:470:69fc:105::3456)
2021-06-17 06:33:13 +0200matrixbridge(~matrixbri@2001:470:69fc:105::3456) ()
2021-06-17 06:33:18 +0200systemhalted(~systemhal@71-129-231-253.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-06-17 06:34:34 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 06:34:45 +0200slice(~slice@user/slice) (Quit: zzz)
2021-06-17 06:35:01 +0200slack1256(~slack1256@191.125.99.208) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-17 06:37:06 +0200spirgel(spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-06-17 06:39:14 +0200yd502(~yd502@180.168.212.6) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-17 06:39:22 +0200trent(~trent@2001:8003:340d:d00:b2de:b98:7a93:b0ea)
2021-06-17 06:39:33 +0200 <Axman6> one day I'mm make the RPG library which uses Accelerate as a backend for Grenade
2021-06-17 06:41:03 +0200 <Axman6> ll*
2021-06-17 06:42:37 +0200 <Axman6> jophish: https://blog.jle.im/entry/practical-dependent-types-in-haskell-1.html
2021-06-17 06:42:50 +0200 <Axman6> shame iridescent left
2021-06-17 06:44:44 +0200sbmsr(~pi@2600:1700:63d0:4830:7dbf:92d8:fd42:235d) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-17 06:44:52 +0200 <int-e> . o O ( wtb: slice syntax for type annotations. bar . (:: Int) . foo )
2021-06-17 06:45:14 +0200 <Axman6> wasn't that a proposal at some point?
2021-06-17 06:45:24 +0200 <Axman6> also, don't type applications usually get you that?
2021-06-17 06:46:01 +0200 <int-e> Maybe but not with ::
2021-06-17 06:46:37 +0200 <int-e> id @Int just doesn't read the same
2021-06-17 06:46:44 +0200 <jophish> `id @Int`?
2021-06-17 06:46:48 +0200 <jophish> haha
2021-06-17 06:46:50 +0200 <Axman6> bar @Int . foo though
2021-06-17 06:47:01 +0200trent(~trent@2001:8003:340d:d00:b2de:b98:7a93:b0ea) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 06:47:15 +0200 <int-e> Axman6: that's not reliable
2021-06-17 06:47:27 +0200 <Axman6> Or, if someone made the type vars come in a shitty order, bar @_ @_ @_ @_ @Int . foo
2021-06-17 06:47:50 +0200 <int-e> Imagine bar :: F a -> a where F is a type family.
2021-06-17 06:48:06 +0200 <int-e> you can't even rely on the type to feature at all
2021-06-17 06:48:16 +0200 <Axman6> so gross
2021-06-17 06:48:39 +0200 <Axman6> retype bar to (b ~ F a) => b -> a
2021-06-17 06:48:40 +0200spirgel(spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel)
2021-06-17 06:48:41 +0200 <int-e> though maybe in that case you'll need to fix the a anyway, so this may be a strawperson
2021-06-17 06:48:52 +0200 <Axman6> yeah
2021-06-17 06:49:34 +0200 <Axman6> I'll have no human, agriculture hybrids here!
2021-06-17 06:52:53 +0200spirgel(spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2021-06-17 07:49:25 +0200MidAutumnMoon(~MidAutumn@user/midautumnmoon) (Quit: Leaving for a break - theLounge)
2021-06-17 07:50:03 +0200MidAutumnMoon(~MidAutumn@user/midautumnmoon)
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2021-06-17 07:51:32 +0200edunqbt
2021-06-17 07:51:47 +0200 <Axman6> Huh, looks like they actually did kill Freenode, amazing: https://isfreenodedeadyet.com
2021-06-17 07:52:06 +0200 <Axman6> I'm not sure I've ever seen an isXyet website say yes
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2021-06-17 07:55:40 +0200 <Axman6> Hadn't seen the FSF's decision, but before I left they seemed to be trying to be as diplomatic as possible, but this looks like it's ended: https://www.fsf.org/news/update-to-the-fsf-and-gnus-plan-to-move-irc-channels-to-libera.chat
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2021-06-17 09:18:56 +0200 <tomsmeding> siers: Cheers!
2021-06-17 09:20:42 +0200kuribas(~user@ptr-25vy0i9z0t743gg6aow.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2021-06-17 09:21:30 +0200warnz(~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:7144:467c:eae6:37e7) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-06-17 09:22:44 +0200gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2021-06-17 09:23:05 +0200Lycurgus(~juan@cpe-45-46-140-49.buffalo.res.rr.com)
2021-06-17 09:25:24 +0200 <kuribas> I wrote about a 1000 lines of code, with the model and queries. The queries worked from the first time when testing on the REPL.
2021-06-17 09:25:30 +0200BosonCollider(~olofs@90-227-86-119-no542.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 09:25:58 +0200 <kuribas> I am known as the "crazy haskell zealot", I'd like to see them show this in another language...
2021-06-17 09:26:21 +0200 <kuribas> I don't get code right the first time in lisp/java/python/...
2021-06-17 09:26:37 +0200 <kuribas> we don't even get code right in production.
2021-06-17 09:26:39 +0200monochrom(trebla@216.138.220.146) (Quit: NO CARRIER)
2021-06-17 09:27:00 +0200 <kuribas> Stuff just breaks after refactorings, dispite a currently very large testing setup.
2021-06-17 09:27:00 +0200 <Lycurgus> not safety critical i presume
2021-06-17 09:27:16 +0200 <kuribas> Lycurgus: it isn't.
2021-06-17 09:27:26 +0200 <kuribas> Lycurgus: but if you ask me, it costs the company money.
2021-06-17 09:27:52 +0200spirgel(spirgel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/spirgel) ()
2021-06-17 09:28:02 +0200 <kuribas> Since bugs affect the frontend team (which is outsourced), takes more time to communicate those bugs, delays the product for the customer, who only pays when they get the feature.
2021-06-17 09:28:05 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-17 09:28:11 +0200 <Lycurgus> well not breaking stuff in production ofc predates hs
2021-06-17 09:28:50 +0200 <kuribas> Lycurgus: if you spend a lot of time testing before releasing...
2021-06-17 09:28:54 +0200 <kuribas> We have a short cycle.
2021-06-17 09:29:36 +0200 <Lycurgus> that and move fast and break stuff is or just was an ethos
2021-06-17 09:30:28 +0200 <kuribas> I like that philosophy. I just don't like when it breaks because the tooling, language or libraries are poor.
2021-06-17 09:30:39 +0200 <Lycurgus> believe it or don't software development in general is much more reliable and generally successful at the project level than it was a generation ago
2021-06-17 09:30:57 +0200 <kuribas> because of move fast?
2021-06-17 09:30:58 +0200 <Lycurgus> that with a concomittant narrowing of scope
2021-06-17 09:31:16 +0200 <Lycurgus> no it's just maturity of the field
2021-06-17 09:31:45 +0200 <Lycurgus> advance and intensification and less wild ass shit
2021-06-17 09:31:55 +0200 <kuribas> sure, I think being late because you refactor code to be clean, or because you don't have well defined scope and overly generalize, are two very different things.
2021-06-17 09:32:10 +0200 <kuribas> The first isn't really "being late".
2021-06-17 09:32:35 +0200 <Lycurgus> well late used to mean never a lot of times
2021-06-17 09:33:07 +0200gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-17 09:33:09 +0200 <kuribas> I mean, I get this explanation, types and abstractions are overhead and delay the project, because you don't focus on business logic.
2021-06-17 09:33:24 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2021-06-17 09:33:26 +0200 <kuribas> But that argument is flawed, because your abstraction and types should flow from the business logic.
2021-06-17 09:33:28 +0200 <Lycurgus> in the late nineties I worked on a major refactoring of telephone systems customer service systems
2021-06-17 09:33:40 +0200 <Lycurgus> it was a billion dollar project
2021-06-17 09:33:47 +0200gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2021-06-17 09:33:48 +0200 <Lycurgus> that failed
2021-06-17 09:34:20 +0200 <Lycurgus> by the predecessor of verizon (nynex)
2021-06-17 09:35:36 +0200chele(~chele@user/chele)
2021-06-17 09:35:55 +0200 <Lycurgus> well the concerns of the hs community are not in general those of business
2021-06-17 09:36:39 +0200 <Lycurgus> which has achieved the end goals of reliability and so forth by more traditional engineering practicss
2021-06-17 09:37:14 +0200 <kuribas> reliability for us seem to mean mostly, iterate until there are no more bugs.
2021-06-17 09:37:23 +0200 <Lycurgus> and continues to do so
2021-06-17 09:38:14 +0200 <kuribas> sure, the initial effort to model the program is often harder with static types, and takes a bit more time.
2021-06-17 09:39:01 +0200 <kuribas> By harder, I mean doing it type safe, where in java or lisp you would use NULL, or nil, partial hashmaps etc.
2021-06-17 09:39:37 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28)
2021-06-17 09:39:50 +0200 <Lycurgus> that paper by sm oder on OOHaskell and dynamic exception types, if you know of it, in what sense are the types dynamic?
2021-06-17 09:40:03 +0200pera(~pera@70.red-88-14-152.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
2021-06-17 09:40:26 +0200peraGuest8423
2021-06-17 09:40:31 +0200 <kuribas> I don't know OOHaskell
2021-06-17 09:40:46 +0200 <Lycurgus> ah, it's from the turn of the century
2021-06-17 09:41:01 +0200 <kuribas> Java is technically statically typed, but it leaves a lot of room for runtime errors.
2021-06-17 09:41:15 +0200 <Lycurgus> b4 c. '06 or so when hs started to become really practical
2021-06-17 09:41:32 +0200 <Lycurgus> and didn need going forward to suck up to OO
2021-06-17 09:41:50 +0200 <kuribas> IMO it's not haskell, but composability which makes your programs robust. Haskell is just a language that makes composability much easier. Java makes it rather hard.
2021-06-17 09:41:55 +0200 <kuribas> Objects don't compose well.
2021-06-17 09:42:46 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 09:42:49 +0200 <Lycurgus> hs, erlang, ocaml in rough order of popularity
2021-06-17 09:43:07 +0200 <Lycurgus> it's still a small fraction of global software production
2021-06-17 09:43:21 +0200 <Lycurgus> maybe 1 or 2 % tops
2021-06-17 09:43:38 +0200 <Lycurgus> for all of em together
2021-06-17 09:43:58 +0200 <kuribas> I am not saying reliable software engineering is not possible in mainstream language, I am just saying it is easier in haskell.
2021-06-17 09:44:19 +0200 <Lycurgus> easier for you
2021-06-17 09:44:34 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-06-17 09:44:42 +0200 <Lycurgus> easier in principal for the pure fps
2021-06-17 09:44:55 +0200 <Lycurgus> easier in fact and practice is another matter
2021-06-17 09:45:04 +0200 <Lycurgus> *in principle
2021-06-17 09:45:15 +0200 <kuribas> yeah, it may not be for everyone.
2021-06-17 09:45:21 +0200 <kuribas> But you don't know unless you try.
2021-06-17 09:45:52 +0200 <kuribas> but software engineering is hard in any language, ecosystem.
2021-06-17 09:46:06 +0200 <kuribas> A lot of ecosystems just pretend it is easy. Haskell doesn't.
2021-06-17 09:46:17 +0200 <Lycurgus> a thing which would be decisive and which I have intentions for
2021-06-17 09:46:34 +0200 <Lycurgus> is if low level programming, end programming is automated
2021-06-17 09:46:47 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-68-83-100-68.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2021-06-17 09:46:54 +0200slice(~slice@user/slice) (Quit: zzz)
2021-06-17 09:46:54 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100)
2021-06-17 09:46:57 +0200 <kuribas> Monads and Applicatives sound like adding complexity on top of it, but in fact they allow you to reduce complexity.
2021-06-17 09:47:02 +0200 <Lycurgus> in that case training programmers for hs is eliminated as an issue
2021-06-17 09:48:18 +0200stefan-__(~cri@42dots.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-06-17 09:48:32 +0200 <kuribas> training for hs is an investment.
2021-06-17 09:48:40 +0200 <kuribas> it's a nonzero cost indeed.
2021-06-17 09:48:50 +0200 <kuribas> but companies have money for training.
2021-06-17 09:49:00 +0200 <Lycurgus> like in G/Labview, where people who've pinned their careers to it don't know or care how it produces code
2021-06-17 09:49:02 +0200warnz(~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:7144:467c:eae6:37e7)
2021-06-17 09:49:56 +0200 <Lycurgus> they have money for training but not the kind of reeducation hs calls for
2021-06-17 09:51:05 +0200 <kuribas> I think we can train for anything, as long as we show it helps for the job.
2021-06-17 09:51:08 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-68-83-100-68.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-17 09:51:29 +0200 <Lycurgus> maybe in central eu oder, not here (US)
2021-06-17 09:51:55 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2021-06-17 09:52:01 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 09:52:09 +0200stefan-_(~cri@42dots.de)
2021-06-17 09:52:41 +0200 <kuribas> US is crazy
2021-06-17 09:52:44 +0200monochrom(trebla@216.138.220.146)
2021-06-17 09:52:50 +0200 <Lycurgus> ikr?
2021-06-17 09:53:12 +0200warnz(~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:7144:467c:eae6:37e7) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-06-17 09:53:17 +0200 <Lycurgus> crazy ol bastards
2021-06-17 09:53:23 +0200 <kuribas> I would just be independend in the US, or join a haskell company, rather than hoping for them to accept haskell.
2021-06-17 09:53:36 +0200neceve(~quassel@2a02:c7f:607e:d600:a95a:ecd2:e57a:3130)
2021-06-17 09:54:22 +0200 <Lycurgus> well FP is huge right now and hs is known as the first among equals in it
2021-06-17 09:55:01 +0200 <Lycurgus> but in the actually existing computing commercial cultures it's mostly biz as usual for the current state of development
2021-06-17 09:55:35 +0200 <Lycurgus> shops will humor you up to a point
2021-06-17 09:55:44 +0200 <kuribas> I mean, Java is a valid choice.
2021-06-17 09:55:52 +0200 <Lycurgus> maybe a lil thing here in hs to keep you happy
2021-06-17 09:56:06 +0200 <Lycurgus> while you bitch about java or c# or php
2021-06-17 09:56:13 +0200 <Franciman> fp is dumbed down right now
2021-06-17 09:56:20 +0200 <Lycurgus> *hera or there
2021-06-17 09:56:26 +0200 <kuribas> Having a bunch of mediocre Java engineers, and a experienced team lead to get it in good directions, is a valid strategy.
2021-06-17 09:56:33 +0200 <kuribas> It's just not one I would like to be part of.
2021-06-17 09:56:47 +0200 <kuribas> Franciman: what do you mean?
2021-06-17 09:56:52 +0200 <Franciman> sorry
2021-06-17 09:57:02 +0200 <Franciman> I wrote in the wrong channel
2021-06-17 09:57:05 +0200 <Franciman> :P
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2021-06-17 11:49:38 +0200 <gentauro> Franciman: `fp` as in functional programming?
2021-06-17 11:50:59 +0200 <gentauro> 09:43 < kuribas> I am not saying reliable software engineering is not possible in mainstream language, I am just saying it is easier in haskell
2021-06-17 11:51:20 +0200 <gentauro> kuribas: what is your bullet-proof handle of `space-leaks` in Haskell? Could you please share. Thx
2021-06-17 11:51:42 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: not writing them?
2021-06-17 11:52:13 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: 1) don't use foldl, sum, product, ... 2) use strict accumulators.
2021-06-17 11:52:16 +0200 <gentauro> kuribas: you claim that `reliable software engineering` is easier in Haskell. I might differ in that opinion
2021-06-17 11:52:24 +0200 <gentauro> mostly cos of space/mem-leaks
2021-06-17 11:52:27 +0200 <Franciman> gentauro: yesp, but I was writing in another channel about fp without deependent types
2021-06-17 11:52:48 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: "it depends"
2021-06-17 11:52:59 +0200 <gentauro> kuribas: you are stating the obvious
2021-06-17 11:53:19 +0200 <gentauro> the problem is when something becomes big, it's "very" difficult to see what is wrong
2021-06-17 11:53:33 +0200 <gentauro> the compiler doesn't help you …
2021-06-17 11:53:39 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: handling data model rich transformations, doing a lot of parsing, etc.. I find it much easier in haskell.
2021-06-17 11:54:10 +0200 <gentauro> and in my own experience, I end up adding a lot of `seq`'s in the code until the space/mem-leak seems to dissapear
2021-06-17 11:54:20 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: doing numerical computations, having complicated algorithms, not so much. But usually it's a mix.
2021-06-17 11:54:27 +0200 <gentauro> but it's "not easy". It's pretty annoying tbh
2021-06-17 11:54:29 +0200Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea)
2021-06-17 11:54:46 +0200 <gentauro> 11:53 < kuribas> gentauro: handling data model rich transformations, doing a lot of parsing, etc.. I find it much easier in haskell
2021-06-17 11:54:51 +0200 <gentauro> I agree to some extend
2021-06-17 11:54:59 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: I am a bug supporter of stateless services. Put your state in a database or redis or so...
2021-06-17 11:55:00 +0200gentauromostly parsing
2021-06-17 11:55:30 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: the haskell GC is not optimal for having lot's of live memory
2021-06-17 11:55:46 +0200 <gentauro> kuribas: Haskell is not with lazy-IO
2021-06-17 11:55:53 +0200gentaurohaving a lot of files "open"
2021-06-17 11:55:58 +0200dhil(~dhil@195.213.192.47)
2021-06-17 11:56:04 +0200gentaurounless you make that IO-operation strict
2021-06-17 11:56:17 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: also, use a streaming abstraction, not lazy-IO
2021-06-17 11:56:26 +0200 <gentauro> I guess my point is, Haskell is not a language that you just "ship" if it compiles
2021-06-17 11:56:29 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: avoid lists for bulk processing.
2021-06-17 11:56:39 +0200 <gentauro> you need to "stress" test it
2021-06-17 11:56:44 +0200 <juri_> gentauro: no languages are.
2021-06-17 11:57:09 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: haskell is not a silver bullet. It requires you knowing what you are doing.
2021-06-17 11:57:19 +0200 <gentauro> kuribas: like every other language
2021-06-17 11:57:29 +0200 <juri_> hit your code with stan. it checks for space leaks.
2021-06-17 11:57:33 +0200 <gentauro> but, we shouldn't oversell it, as "easier"
2021-06-17 11:57:46 +0200 <gentauro> juri_: `stan`? linke pls
2021-06-17 11:57:51 +0200 <gentauro> s/linke/link/
2021-06-17 11:58:10 +0200 <juri_> https://github.com/kowainik/stan
2021-06-17 11:58:40 +0200 <juri_> I've been scrubbing my code for weeks, and am only about halfway through the things stan warned me about.
2021-06-17 11:58:53 +0200krzesi(~szara@2a02:a31c:853b:b780:8f1:e5d7:b2c6:49bb)
2021-06-17 11:58:55 +0200 <gentauro> juri_: nice !!!
2021-06-17 11:58:57 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: I haven't yet had any space leaks. But I am careful about the code I write.
2021-06-17 11:59:01 +0200 <gentauro> didn't knew that tool
2021-06-17 11:59:12 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: if it needs to be fast, I inspect the core.
2021-06-17 11:59:13 +0200krzesi(~szara@2a02:a31c:853b:b780:8f1:e5d7:b2c6:49bb) (Client Quit)
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2021-06-17 11:59:25 +0200 <juri_> stan, hlint, weeder... then ship. :P
2021-06-17 11:59:38 +0200 <gentauro> kuribas: and that's the reason I ask for you `bullet-proof` approach to write Haskell. "Sharing in caring" ;)
2021-06-17 11:59:39 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: and I think it's a good design to go stateless. That also means your service can restart quicker.
2021-06-17 12:01:04 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: ghc is not magical. Like any language, understanding what code does requires testing, inspection, bench-marking etc...
2021-06-17 12:01:09 +0200 <gentauro> kuribas: I mostly write "minimalist and modular" bin tools (Unix philosophy)
2021-06-17 12:01:40 +0200 <gentauro> sometimes I need `mem-state`
2021-06-17 12:02:28 +0200 <kuribas> but it is true that you trade higher level programming, more safe and declarative code, for a execution model that is harder to understand.
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2021-06-17 12:05:20 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: can you show me an example where you needed a lot of work to avoid space leaks?
2021-06-17 12:05:43 +0200 <kuribas> like adding seq
2021-06-17 12:06:03 +0200 <gentauro> kuribas: sure http://blog.stermon.com/articles/2020/04/06/haskell-data-octet-nand-smaller-but-slower.html
2021-06-17 12:06:06 +0200 <gentauro> xD
2021-06-17 12:06:18 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100)
2021-06-17 12:06:21 +0200 <gentauro> kuribas: just search for `seq`
2021-06-17 12:06:39 +0200 <gentauro> I'm gonna run the `stan` tool against that code
2021-06-17 12:06:57 +0200 <gentauro> I'm guessing that `stan` will probably "give up" xD
2021-06-17 12:07:41 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 12:08:34 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: that looks pretty contrived code
2021-06-17 12:09:20 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2021-06-17 12:09:25 +0200 <kuribas> "No arithmetic computations are done by the CPU as all operations are based on the NAND logic gate, which is implemented as a pattern matched function."
2021-06-17 12:09:36 +0200 <kuribas> That sounds hardly like something I would want in production code.
2021-06-17 12:09:39 +0200 <kuribas> more like an experiment.
2021-06-17 12:10:43 +0200 <gentauro> kuribas: do you have any exp with FHE?
2021-06-17 12:10:46 +0200dhil(~dhil@195.213.192.47) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 12:10:51 +0200 <kuribas> no
2021-06-17 12:11:16 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2021-06-17 12:11:48 +0200 <gentauro> fair enough
2021-06-17 12:12:40 +0200v01d4lph4(~v01d4lph4@user/v01d4lph4)
2021-06-17 12:12:44 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: that giant mapping function smells badly
2021-06-17 12:12:53 +0200 <Square> For your low user count app / not massive IO, my gut feeling is that Haskell does great. Ive had Haskell (2-player) game + site running for 3 years and not experienced any wierd issues. Its semi complicated in how has multiple WebSocket messaging channels etc.
2021-06-17 12:13:18 +0200 <Square> how it hase*
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2021-06-17 12:14:14 +0200benin0364(~benin@183.82.204.241)
2021-06-17 12:14:33 +0200 <kuribas> indeed
2021-06-17 12:15:14 +0200zeenk(~zeenk@188.26.30.39)
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2021-06-17 12:19:02 +0200 <gentauro> kuribas: if you can re-write the code, so it still use not arithmetic op's, I would <3 to see it :)
2021-06-17 12:19:53 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: I don't need arbitrary restrictions in code I write.
2021-06-17 12:22:26 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:cded:c7cb:4d63:a64a) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-17 12:24:25 +0200 <Square> gentauro, the page you linked makes chrome unhappy. Maybe because its long/big page.. ie http://blog.stermon.com/articles/2020/04/06/haskell-data-octet-nand-smaller-but-slower.html
2021-06-17 12:26:15 +0200 <gentauro> Square: indeed
2021-06-17 12:26:36 +0200 <gentauro> Square: if you open the v1, it will probably crash Chrome xD
2021-06-17 12:26:45 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-68-83-100-68.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2021-06-17 12:26:55 +0200 <gentauro> http://blog.stermon.com/articles/2020/03/30/haskell-data-octet-safe-idiomatic-and-big.html xD
2021-06-17 12:27:06 +0200 <Square> no thanks =D
2021-06-17 12:28:15 +0200 <gentauro> xD
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2021-06-17 12:40:54 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ()
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2021-06-17 12:42:54 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: I was expecting you to show me an example from your own code, where you detected a spaceleak and needed a lot of annotations in order to actually make it work, not some contrived experiment under arbitrary restrictions.
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2021-06-17 13:06:03 +0200elf_fortrez(~elf_fortr@adsl-64-237-239-58.prtc.net)
2021-06-17 13:06:32 +0200 <gentauro> kuribas: well it is my code …
2021-06-17 13:06:56 +0200 <gentauro> and it had a lot of space leaks so I injected `seq` everywhere …
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2021-06-17 13:14:01 +0200 <kuribas> gentauro: so... just use arithmetic ops, or Data.Bits?
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2021-06-17 13:25:39 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
2021-06-17 13:27:47 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@135-23-192-217.cpe.pppoe.ca)
2021-06-17 13:27:56 +0200aplainzetakind(~johndoe@captainludd.powered.by.lunarbnc.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-17 13:28:49 +0200aplainzetakind(~johndoe@captainludd.powered.by.lunarbnc.net)
2021-06-17 13:29:06 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:c962:f999:5484:e62b) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-06-17 13:30:58 +0200 <tomsmeding> bloody hell that's some large pattern matches :p
2021-06-17 13:31:24 +0200jao(jao@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jao)
2021-06-17 13:32:00 +0200pfurla(~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net)
2021-06-17 13:32:37 +0200 <tomsmeding> incidentally firefox has no trouble whatsoever, but I do kind of doubt the utility of this representation of a Word8 :p
2021-06-17 13:32:43 +0200 <juri_> gentauro: hit it with stan. ;)
2021-06-17 13:33:10 +0200 <tomsmeding> I know of the existence of homomorphic encryption (if that's what FHE refers to), but not much more, and I don't see the relation :D
2021-06-17 13:33:36 +0200pe200012(~pe200012@58.248.179.150)
2021-06-17 13:33:38 +0200pe200012_(~pe200012@183.63.73.44) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-17 13:34:40 +0200 <int-e> gentauro: that addition is some truly cursed code
2021-06-17 13:35:01 +0200 <int-e> (and the remaining binary arithmetic operations)
2021-06-17 13:35:02 +0200pfurla_(~pfurla@216.131.82.53) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-17 13:36:08 +0200 <int-e> Though maybe I should've stopped reading after the data declarion.
2021-06-17 13:39:50 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-68-83-100-68.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-17 13:40:37 +0200 <tomsmeding> gentauro: any reason why there should not be any arithmetic operations?
2021-06-17 13:40:38 +0200azeem(~azeem@dynamic-adsl-78-13-238-239.clienti.tiscali.it) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-17 13:41:24 +0200azeem(~azeem@dynamic-adsl-78-13-238-239.clienti.tiscali.it)
2021-06-17 13:41:48 +0200 <tomsmeding> if you use a binary representation you can implement basic arithmetic ops manually on that in asymptotically constant space instead of exponential in the number of bits
2021-06-17 13:41:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> s/space/code/
2021-06-17 13:42:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> but fromEnum and toEnum will necessarily still have either an enumeration of your data type or usage of Int ops, by their nature
2021-06-17 13:43:09 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 13:45:05 +0200ukari(~ukari@user/ukari) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-06-17 13:46:26 +0200Guest35(~Guest35@c83-252-118-64.bredband.tele2.se)
2021-06-17 13:47:27 +0200Guest35(~Guest35@c83-252-118-64.bredband.tele2.se) (Client Quit)
2021-06-17 13:51:04 +0200maroloccio(~marolocci@200.243.99.194) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-06-17 13:53:59 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100)
2021-06-17 13:54:31 +0200Torro(Torro@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/torro)
2021-06-17 13:54:46 +0200pretty_dumm_guy(trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655)
2021-06-17 13:55:45 +0200 <merijn> Enum is just a terrible class, tbh >.>
2021-06-17 13:56:37 +0200yoctocell(~yoctocell@h87-96-130-155.cust.a3fiber.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-17 13:56:40 +0200 <Cale> It's two okay classes that have been inexplicably stapled together
2021-06-17 13:57:27 +0200 <exarkun> Why are the links on https://www.stackage.org/lts-16.31/hoogle?q=Test.Hspec.Wai to package versions from lts-18.0 :/
2021-06-17 13:58:08 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-17 13:59:38 +0200 <Cale> gentauro, tomsmeding: Whenever you have a type with more constructors than you will ever write case expressions pattern matching on that type, my usual rule of thumb is to consider reworking the type as a record of the conclusions of those case expressions (or possibly less than that, if you can get away with less)
2021-06-17 14:00:00 +0200 <merijn> exarkun: It says it's searching lts-18 at the top too
2021-06-17 14:00:12 +0200 <merijn> Why that happens for lts-16.31, who knows :p
2021-06-17 14:00:14 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28)
2021-06-17 14:00:50 +0200 <merijn> Looks like their hoogle install just indexes the latest lts
2021-06-17 14:03:31 +0200tako(~user@net-2-34-77-146.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
2021-06-17 14:08:30 +0200jneira[m](~jneira@214.red-176-87-57.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
2021-06-17 14:10:11 +0200BosonCollider(~olofs@90-227-86-119-no542.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-17 14:11:22 +0200bontaq`bontaq
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2021-06-17 14:20:34 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
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2021-06-17 14:30:22 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100)
2021-06-17 14:31:20 +0200nschoe(~quassel@178.251.84.79)
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2021-06-17 14:36:16 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
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2021-06-17 14:42:37 +0200jneira[m](~jneira@214.red-176-87-57.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-17 14:44:41 +0200ente_(~ente@p200300dc5f4037016fbea028d47fea8e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-06-17 14:45:02 +0200elf_fortrez(~elf_fortr@adsl-64-237-239-58.prtc.net)
2021-06-17 14:46:44 +0200 <ente_> I am very new to haskell (although I have used other functional languages quite a bit) and would like to get started developing web apps (JSON REST APIs for now) in haskell. I have found ihp (which I could not install) and yesod for which I can not find a small/minimal example. When creating a new project using the quick start guide, there is a whole lot of bloat showcasing all the features and I
2021-06-17 14:46:46 +0200 <ente_> don't know what is safe to delete etc. If someone could recommend any resources on getting started with yesod for non-html I would be very thankful :)
2021-06-17 14:52:50 +0200 <Taneb> ente_: for simple HTTP APIs, I'd suggest something like scotty.
2021-06-17 14:53:11 +0200jolly(~jolly@208.180.97.158)
2021-06-17 14:53:29 +0200 <Taneb> If you're comfortable with very fancy type stuff (which if you're new to Haskell you probably won't be), servant is very nice but might be hard to figure out how to use
2021-06-17 14:56:20 +0200fendor(~fendor@77.119.131.250.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-17 14:57:00 +0200 <Hecate> Scotty good
2021-06-17 14:57:04 +0200 <Hecate> Servant good but also very hard
2021-06-17 14:57:15 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> ente_: are you absolutely set on using yesod? I would also recommend something like Scotty to start you off
2021-06-17 14:57:23 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> especially if you haven't done much haskell before
2021-06-17 14:57:35 +0200 <ente_> vaibhavsagar[m]: No, I have no experience so I don't care
2021-06-17 14:57:52 +0200 <[exa]> ente_: highly recommend scotty, it's the easiest one to start with and usually holds up even for pretty large projects
2021-06-17 14:58:12 +0200 <[exa]> ente_: especially if it's just REST APIs
2021-06-17 14:58:17 +0200fendor(~fendor@77.119.131.250.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2021-06-17 14:58:30 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> here's a recent tutorial: https://www.stackbuilders.com/tutorials/haskell/getting-started-with-haskell-projects-using-scotty/
2021-06-17 14:58:39 +0200 <ente_> ty <3
2021-06-17 14:58:50 +0200 <ente_> that seems nice thank you
2021-06-17 14:59:00 +0200 <ente_> (the tutorial)_
2021-06-17 14:59:13 +0200 <exarkun> is it possible to have stack _optionally_ use nix to manage dependencies, if it is installed, but otherwise just try to build using what's on the system if not?
2021-06-17 14:59:28 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> no
2021-06-17 14:59:32 +0200nschoe_(~quassel@2a04:cec0:1017:3105:45bb:25b7:a939:c011)
2021-06-17 14:59:37 +0200nschoe(~quassel@178.251.84.79) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 14:59:43 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> we were just talking about this in the Nix Haskell channel
2021-06-17 15:00:02 +0200 <ente_> is nix popular with haskell? I have seen projects use it
2021-06-17 15:00:09 +0200 <ente_> Isn't it a linux distro?
2021-06-17 15:00:13 +0200 <merijn> ente_: There is a small cult
2021-06-17 15:00:18 +0200 <exarkun> nixos is a linux distro
2021-06-17 15:00:25 +0200 <[exa]> ente_: re "haskell beginner"-- you might need to get some background on monads to actually be productive with this (the routing is a monad but looks declaratively, and sometimes you'll need liftIO to do useful stuff from within the "Action" environment you get for handling your routes)
2021-06-17 15:00:28 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> to copy the message I sent there: "Stack's Nix integration uses Nix to provide non-Haskell system dependencies (like `zlib`) in a `nix shell` environment and then executes a normal `stack build` in that environment"
2021-06-17 15:00:33 +0200 <merijn> ente_: I don't think it's that big, but it's...quite loud :p
2021-06-17 15:00:48 +0200 <merijn> exarkun: That sounds...counter-intuitive (stack + nix)
2021-06-17 15:01:01 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> ente_: yes, some haskell devs use it for development
2021-06-17 15:01:06 +0200 <merijn> exarkun: Because those two are pretty directly opposed
2021-06-17 15:01:19 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> package management is difficult with many languages
2021-06-17 15:01:24 +0200 <exarkun> merijn: I didn't add the nix-based features to stack. :)
2021-06-17 15:01:39 +0200 <exarkun> merijn: I just want it to be easy to build my software whether someone is on nixos or not
2021-06-17 15:01:45 +0200 <[exa]> ente_: nix is one good way to manage the (problematic) dependencies and rebuilds of packages and have a stable environment; luckily cabal now does most of that right automagically itself
2021-06-17 15:01:55 +0200 <merijn> exarkun: Wait, which Nix features are you referring too?
2021-06-17 15:02:03 +0200 <merijn> exarkun: Pretty sure stack does not use Nix at all
2021-06-17 15:02:13 +0200 <exarkun> merijn: The `nix` stanza that's allowed in stack.yaml
2021-06-17 15:02:23 +0200 <exarkun> merijn: vaibhavsagar[m] summarized it just above
2021-06-17 15:02:44 +0200 <merijn> ah, you wanna dynamically decide to toggle it on
2021-06-17 15:02:51 +0200 <merijn> Doubt that's implemented, tbh
2021-06-17 15:02:55 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/nix_integration/
2021-06-17 15:03:14 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100)
2021-06-17 15:03:14 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> sounds like exarkun wants to use it for some dependencies but not others
2021-06-17 15:03:24 +0200 <exarkun> I think merijn said it pretty well
2021-06-17 15:03:35 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> which (as I was just saying in the other channel) would be an excellent feature I would definitely use
2021-06-17 15:03:36 +0200 <exarkun> I run nixos, I'm happy to have `stack build` require `nix-shell`
2021-06-17 15:04:02 +0200 <exarkun> Other people don't run nixos, if they want to install zlib-dev with `yum` or whatever, it would be cool if `stack build` still worked
2021-06-17 15:04:16 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> oh I see
2021-06-17 15:04:18 +0200 <exarkun> But if I put `nix` in stack.yaml then they can't build anymore unless they install nix (just the tool, not nixos)
2021-06-17 15:04:39 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> I have run into this issue too
2021-06-17 15:04:56 +0200hexfive(~eric@50.35.83.177)
2021-06-17 15:05:21 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> https://github.com/gibiansky/IHaskell/blob/4e1a2a132c165e1669faaeac355eb853e1f628a3/stack.yaml#L55
2021-06-17 15:05:22 +0200 <exarkun> I don't really see how you could make that particularly reliable or robust (at least, not based on what's there now). But that doesn't stop me from wanting a better user experience...
2021-06-17 15:05:43 +0200 <exarkun> vaibhavsagar[m]: Hm. And then just locally edit `enable` to suit you?
2021-06-17 15:06:14 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> you could write your own program that changes the YAML based on the output of `type -f nix`
2021-06-17 15:07:13 +0200v01d4lph4(~v01d4lph4@user/v01d4lph4) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-17 15:07:31 +0200 <exarkun> for now maybe I'll just note that folks can edit `nix.enable` in stack.yaml in the build docs
2021-06-17 15:08:08 +0200pe200012_(~pe200012@120.236.162.19)
2021-06-17 15:08:11 +0200maroloccio(~marolocci@200.243.99.194)
2021-06-17 15:08:15 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 15:08:42 +0200pe200012(~pe200012@58.248.179.150) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-06-17 15:09:41 +0200elf_fortrez(~elf_fortr@adsl-64-237-239-58.prtc.net) (Quit: Client closed)
2021-06-17 15:10:39 +0200kw(~user@152.1.137.158)
2021-06-17 15:12:24 +0200 <kw> I know that proliferation of operators is evil, but hypothetically speaking, what would be a good mnemonic operator for `traverseOf_` ? I'm thinking maybe `(-%~)` or `(%%-)` ?
2021-06-17 15:12:47 +0200chomwitt(~Pitsikoko@athedsl-20549.home.otenet.gr)
2021-06-17 15:12:54 +0200 <ente_> has anyone ever encountered this error in vs code? "ghcide compiled by GHC 8.10 failed to load packages: <command line>: cannot satisfy -package shortener-0.1.0.0"
2021-06-17 15:13:54 +0200 <ente_> nvm it just went away after reloading the window
2021-06-17 15:14:02 +0200 <exarkun> kw: 🌉
2021-06-17 15:14:36 +0200 <exarkun> kw: 淩
2021-06-17 15:14:54 +0200 <exarkun> kw: 🚸
2021-06-17 15:15:38 +0200warnz(~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:7144:467c:eae6:37e7)
2021-06-17 15:15:54 +0200nschoe_(~quassel@2a04:cec0:1017:3105:45bb:25b7:a939:c011) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-06-17 15:16:24 +0200AgentM(~agentm@pool-162-83-130-212.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
2021-06-17 15:16:27 +0200 <pe200012_> ente_: execute `stack build`
2021-06-17 15:16:38 +0200 <pe200012_> then reload hls
2021-06-17 15:16:41 +0200nschoe(~quassel@178.251.84.79)
2021-06-17 15:17:26 +0200 <kw> exarkun: Oops, I forgot to install Symbola on this instance, so please just ASCII.
2021-06-17 15:19:33 +0200pe200012_(~pe200012@120.236.162.19) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-06-17 15:20:16 +0200trcc(~trcc@2-104-60-169-cable.dk.customer.tdc.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-17 15:22:21 +0200mpt(~tom@2a02:908:1862:49e0::3)
2021-06-17 15:22:44 +0200Lycurgus(~juan@cpe-45-46-140-49.buffalo.res.rr.com)
2021-06-17 15:23:42 +0200 <kw> Guess I could define `travereseOf_infixr4` and use that. Bit of a long name, but it's informative.
2021-06-17 15:25:36 +0200 <ente_> can you have a data record with a field whichs data type can be specified?
2021-06-17 15:25:52 +0200 <ente_> in elm you can do something like `content: a` and then specify the type in a
2021-06-17 15:26:15 +0200 <kw> Yep. `data Foo a = Foo{ foo :: a }`
2021-06-17 15:26:16 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:c962:f999:5484:e62b)
2021-06-17 15:26:30 +0200 <ente_> ah thanks
2021-06-17 15:28:40 +0200yoctocell(~yoctocell@h87-96-130-155.cust.a3fiber.se)
2021-06-17 15:30:18 +0200 <ente_> and if you want to create a record of Foo, how do you specify the type?
2021-06-17 15:30:25 +0200nschoe(~quassel@178.251.84.79) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-06-17 15:30:40 +0200nschoe(~quassel@178.251.84.79)
2021-06-17 15:30:45 +0200 <ente_> `Thing String {content: "", ...}` doesn't seem to work
2021-06-17 15:30:50 +0200 <ente_> sorry for noob questions
2021-06-17 15:31:11 +0200eggplantade(~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:c962:f999:5484:e62b) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 15:31:29 +0200fef(~thedawn@user/thedawn)
2021-06-17 15:32:12 +0200 <kw> ente_: I'm not sure I understand the question. Say you want a Foo of String, with the value `"foo"`. You use `x = Foo{ foo = "foo" }` . Then `x :: Foo String` .
2021-06-17 15:32:26 +0200 <ente_> oh ok
2021-06-17 15:37:08 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-06-17 15:37:41 +0200 <gentauro> 13:33 < tomsmeding> I know of the existence of homomorphic encryption
2021-06-17 15:37:48 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100)
2021-06-17 15:38:10 +0200 <gentauro> tomsmeding: for fully homomorphic encryption, you need addition and multiplication which the NAND gate provides you :)
2021-06-17 15:39:26 +0200 <gentauro> tomsmeding: https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2012/01/02/very-casual-introduction-to-fully/
2021-06-17 15:39:29 +0200 <gentauro> :)
2021-06-17 15:39:42 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-17 15:40:26 +0200nschoe(~quassel@178.251.84.79) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-06-17 15:40:26 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-06-17 15:40:29 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-68-83-100-68.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2021-06-17 15:40:38 +0200 <gentauro> Cale and tomsmeding: my intention was to add a basic `octet type` which you could use to implement basic logic
2021-06-17 15:40:42 +0200dunkeln(~dunkeln@94.129.65.28) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-06-17 15:40:50 +0200nschoe(~quassel@2a04:cec0:1017:3105:d178:ff24:bc5e:5c16)
2021-06-17 15:40:51 +0200 <gentauro> as kuribas said, this was just "some experimenting"
2021-06-17 15:40:58 +0200nschoe(~quassel@2a04:cec0:1017:3105:d178:ff24:bc5e:5c16) (Client Quit)
2021-06-17 15:41:14 +0200nschoe(~quassel@2a04:cec0:1017:3105:d178:ff24:bc5e:5c16)
2021-06-17 15:41:26 +0200gentauroand mostly see, how far I could push Haskell
2021-06-17 15:41:42 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-06-17 15:42:19 +0200andreabedini(~andreabed@8s8kj6n7rfstpc4f9nxm.ip6.superloop.com)
2021-06-17 15:42:26 +0200 <gentauro> I guess, wouldn't it be better for our society if more *bright* Haskellers spent time on problems like HE / FHE and perhaps, not su much on crypto stuff? Just a thought …
2021-06-17 15:43:01 +0200 <kuribas> I don't even get why people think haskell is good for crypto.
2021-06-17 15:43:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> gentauro: but surely, if you want to define arithmetic operations in terms of logic gates, then the goal is to let the number of logic gates be linear in the number of bits, right?
2021-06-17 15:43:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> your current code is exponentially sized in the number of bits :p
2021-06-17 15:43:17 +0200 <kuribas> I think it's mediocre at it, and not even better than other languages.
2021-06-17 15:45:18 +0200fizbin(~fizbin@c-68-83-100-68.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-06-17 15:46:13 +0200muto(~muto@d75-159-225-7.abhsia.telus.net)
2021-06-17 15:46:17 +0200 <kuribas> F* looks more reasonable
2021-06-17 15:46:26 +0200 <Cale> gentauro: Cryptocurrencies and blockchain stuff in general is pretty much a complete waste of everyone's time and energy and I'm sad about it as well, but it's hard to fault people for following the money around. I find that phrasing a bit funny though, since homomorphic encryption would usually have been considered solidly part of "crypto".
2021-06-17 15:46:27 +0200 <Franciman> f* is coooool
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2021-06-17 15:53:56 +0200 <maerwald> gentauro: pay them better... even boring js jobs often pay better. Only exception is fintech and crypto is just part of that
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2021-06-17 15:58:45 +0200 <janus> Cale: do you have know a good article that explains why even blockchain is bad in general? i'd like to have something to show people when they claim that blockchains have merit outside cryptocurrency
2021-06-17 15:59:29 +0200 <merijn> janus: Well, you've got it reversed, you should be asking "give me one thing they're *good* at"
2021-06-17 15:59:44 +0200 <Cale> janus: hmm... I have my own argument for it
2021-06-17 15:59:55 +0200 <merijn> The answer is: They aren't particularly good at anything and 99.9% of all supposed use cases have much simpler/easier alternatives
2021-06-17 16:00:06 +0200 <Cale> ^^ yes
2021-06-17 16:00:08 +0200 <merijn> Anyway, that's rapidly going offtopic for #haskell I think
2021-06-17 16:00:14 +0200 <merijn> Might actually be 100%, tbh
2021-06-17 16:00:37 +0200 <janus> Cale: are you in another channel where i can ask you about it?
2021-06-17 16:00:39 +0200 <maerwald> But most of Haskell is blockchain
2021-06-17 16:00:44 +0200 <maerwald> :p
2021-06-17 16:00:47 +0200 <merijn> janus: #haskell-offtopic :p
2021-06-17 16:01:04 +0200 <Franciman> here we can talk about haskell fading into darkness?
2021-06-17 16:01:28 +0200 <Franciman> micheal snoyman adopted rust
2021-06-17 16:01:54 +0200fabfianda(~fabfianda@net-93-148-121-206.cust.dsl.teletu.it) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 16:01:57 +0200 <maerwald> BC rust is used in blockchain
2021-06-17 16:02:26 +0200 <merijn> Franciman: So?
2021-06-17 16:02:49 +0200fabfianda(~fabfianda@net-93-148-121-206.cust.dsl.teletu.it)
2021-06-17 16:02:52 +0200 <merijn> Franciman: I disagree with a lot of his opinions anyway :p
2021-06-17 16:03:21 +0200 <Franciman> merijn: me too
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2021-06-17 16:04:03 +0200 <Franciman> everything I used that was created by his accolades or himself, has sucked badly for me
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2021-06-17 16:04:44 +0200 <Franciman> stackage skipping tests :D
2021-06-17 16:04:46 +0200 <Franciman> was hilarious
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2021-06-17 16:40:39 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> who needs tests when you have types /s
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2021-06-17 17:53:21 +0200 <gentauro> 15:53 < maerwald> gentauro: pay them better... even boring js jobs often pay better. Only exception is fintech and crypto is just part of that
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2021-06-17 17:54:01 +0200 <gentauro> maerwald[m]: the reason I don't do Haskell for food is: a) I have to do crypto-stuff or b) The salary is worse of what i can get by being a code monkey
2021-06-17 17:54:07 +0200 <gentauro> it's sad, but true
2021-06-17 17:54:30 +0200 <gentauro> last offer I got on the table was from a Swedish company that would pay me less than a Danish cashier …
2021-06-17 17:54:43 +0200 <gentauro> so I politely said NO.
2021-06-17 17:55:18 +0200 <gentauro> 15:43 < tomsmeding> your current code is exponentially sized in the number of bits :p
2021-06-17 17:55:32 +0200 <gentauro> tomjaguarpaw: probably xD
2021-06-17 17:55:51 +0200 <gentauro> ups, wrong tomsmeding:
2021-06-17 17:56:19 +0200 <gentauro> tomsmeding: I guess this is the issue with all HE/FHE (slower than the bad guys horse in a Western)
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2021-06-17 18:26:44 +0200 <tomsmeding> gentauro: but if you have a nand gate and _use_ it (your code is really only pattern matching, it never actually uses a nand gate I think), you can reduce the code to constant size in the number of bits
2021-06-17 18:27:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> because you can implement a one-bit full adder with a constant number of logic gates
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2021-06-17 18:27:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> I forget exactly how many gates you need for a multiplier, but if it isn't n log n then it's at most n^2, which is significantly less than 2^n :p
2021-06-17 18:32:17 +0200benin0369(~benin@106.198.88.222)
2021-06-17 18:32:19 +0200 <gentauro> tomsmeding: but when you "code" with NAND gates, is like you are creating a physical "circuit board" (with components)
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2021-06-17 18:32:41 +0200 <gentauro> so it will become "big"
2021-06-17 18:33:10 +0200 <gentauro> I guess is just like "pure lambda calculus" (which isn't reduced)
2021-06-17 18:33:37 +0200 <gentauro> but nevertheless, it has been ages since "I played" with FHE so I might not recall why I did what i did
2021-06-17 18:35:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> gentauro: an 8-bit adder can be made like this https://www.wolfram.com/system-modeler/examples/more/electrical-engineering/8-bit-adder where FA is a full adder: https://theorycircuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/full-adder-circuit.png
2021-06-17 18:35:23 +0200tromp(~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-17 18:35:27 +0200benin036(~benin@106.198.88.222) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 18:35:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> and XOR/AND/OR can be implemented using NAND
2021-06-17 18:35:47 +0200 <tomsmeding> you don't need 256 gates to add two 8-bit numbers, even with nands :p
2021-06-17 18:37:24 +0200 <gentauro> 15:39 < gentauro> tomsmeding: https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2012/01/02/very-casual-introduction-to-fully/
2021-06-17 18:37:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> naively converting that full adder to nands following https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAND_logic leads to 15 nands per FA, if I counted correctly
2021-06-17 18:37:34 +0200 <gentauro> tomsmeding: I guess I needed `A B : 1+A*B` which is NAND
2021-06-17 18:37:44 +0200 <gentauro> and from there i could create all the other logic gates
2021-06-17 18:38:22 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100)
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2021-06-17 18:39:24 +0200lavaman(~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
2021-06-17 18:39:31 +0200 <gentauro> nevertheless, I don't remember why I went with the pattern match instead of calculation
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2021-06-17 18:40:01 +0200 <gentauro> perhaps is cos (theoretic) Math doesn't make any calculations, but just maps from one set to another? (most plauseble answer I guess)
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2021-06-17 18:46:17 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2021-06-17 18:48:58 +0200 <Boarders> Does anyone know with both stack and cabal how I can pass ghc options to e.g. build all dependencies with -O2?
2021-06-17 18:51:40 +0200sheepduck(~sheepduck@cpe98524a8cef7c-cm98524a8cef7a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
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2021-06-17 18:59:41 +0200Pickchea(~private@user/pickchea)
2021-06-17 19:00:05 +0200 <kw> Is there a way to fuse list operations that can terminate early, like `delete` , without eliminating the possibility of early termination?
2021-06-17 19:00:32 +0200boxscape(~boxscape@user/boxscape)
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2021-06-17 19:08:09 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> Boarders: there's a `ghc-options` stanza in `stack.yaml`
2021-06-17 19:08:20 +0200v01d4lph4(~v01d4lph4@user/v01d4lph4)
2021-06-17 19:08:23 +0200dhil(~dhil@openvpn-125-1024.inf.ed.ac.uk)
2021-06-17 19:08:50 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> for cabal there is a `ghc-options` stanza in your `.cabal` file
2021-06-17 19:08:52 +0200beka(~beka@104.193.170-244.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
2021-06-17 19:08:55 +0200 <gentauro> Boarders: like this? https://gitlab.com/spisemisu/arraylog/-/blob/master/arraylog.cabal#L122
2021-06-17 19:10:25 +0200 <sclv> well the options in the cabal file are _just_ for that project. to get the deps also -O2 you can pass the flags in the cabal.project file but i don't remember exactly how or also set global ghc options in ~/.cabal/config
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2021-06-17 19:14:39 +0200marinelli[m](~marinelli@2001:470:69fc:105::2d8)
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2021-06-17 19:15:32 +0200 <Boarders> gentauro: I don't think so because like sclv said that typically only uses those options for your local project
2021-06-17 19:15:57 +0200 <Boarders> vaibhavsagar[m]: do you know if that passes those options to the dependencies?
2021-06-17 19:16:24 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> I think there's a way to do that with stack
2021-06-17 19:17:50 +0200marinelli[m](~marinelli@2001:470:69fc:105::2d8) (Client Quit)
2021-06-17 19:18:05 +0200 <sclv> Boarders: so for cabal, create a cabal.project and then I think have a `package *` stanza, and inside that you can put in a ghc flags line
2021-06-17 19:18:16 +0200marinelli[m](~marinelli@2001:470:69fc:105::2d8)
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2021-06-17 19:19:16 +0200 <Boarders> ah ok, thanks!
2021-06-17 19:19:25 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100)
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2021-06-17 19:28:07 +0200ec(~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
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2021-06-17 19:46:56 +0200 <vaibhavsagar[m]> @Boarders: https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/yaml_configuration/#ghc-options
2021-06-17 19:46:57 +0200 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
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2021-06-17 21:16:06 +0200 <Guest9> hi all
2021-06-17 21:16:16 +0200 <Guest9> how to convert any program into recursion program?
2021-06-17 21:16:17 +0200 <Guest9> https://codeshare.io/vw8Zdn
2021-06-17 21:19:03 +0200fvr(uid503686@id-503686.highgate.irccloud.com)
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2021-06-17 21:30:11 +0200cfricke(~cfricke@user/cfricke)
2021-06-17 21:33:09 +0200 <dminuoso> Guest9: A loop is trivially mapped into recursion of an (auxiliary) function. We encode a "loop variable" as a function argument, when the "loop increments a loop variable" we encode that as recursion with the argument modified, and exiting the loop by simply returning the final value.
2021-06-17 21:33:24 +0200 <dminuoso> @src length
2021-06-17 21:33:24 +0200 <lambdabot> Source not found. My brain just exploded
2021-06-17 21:33:41 +0200 <[exa]> imploded.
2021-06-17 21:34:46 +0200 <dminuoso> A possible version of the length function might look like this: length xs = go 0 xs where go n (x:xs) = go (n+1) xs; go n [] = n;
2021-06-17 21:36:07 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@86.106.121.100)
2021-06-17 21:36:39 +0200 <dminuoso> Guest9: If you look at this, you might notice that the outside call into `go` with an argument of 0 is akin to "initializing a loop variable", modifying it by (n+1) in the recursive step is akin to "increment each step", and we can use guards/pattern matching/conditionals that decide whether or not to keep recursion as a way to keep looping or exit the loop.
2021-06-17 21:38:31 +0200 <Guest9> dminuoso trying to understand your point
2021-06-17 21:38:38 +0200agumonke`(~user@88.160.31.174)
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2021-06-17 21:57:07 +0200neceve(~quassel@2a02:c7f:607e:d600:a95a:ecd2:e57a:3130)
2021-06-17 21:57:35 +0200jludwig(~jludwig@2601:644:8500:c460:82e6:50ff:fe1c:f30e) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-17 22:00:20 +0200boxscape(~boxscape@user/boxscape) (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-06-17 22:01:30 +0200beka(~beka@104.193.170-244.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-06-17 22:03:53 +0200fabfianda(~fabfianda@mob-5-90-243-110.net.vodafone.it) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-06-17 22:04:07 +0200fabfianda(~fabfianda@net-93-148-121-206.cust.dsl.teletu.it)
2021-06-17 22:05:13 +0200 <kw> Gonna ask this again. `traverseOf` has an operator `(%%~)` . If `traverseOf_` had on operator, would it be `(-%~)`, `(%%-)` , or something else?
2021-06-17 22:05:44 +0200juhp(~juhp@128.106.188.66) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2021-06-17 22:11:24 +0200_ht(~quassel@82-169-194-8.biz.kpn.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-06-17 22:30:27 +0200kosmikus_(~kosmikus@nullzig.kosmikus.org)
2021-06-17 22:32:06 +0200allbery_b(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
2021-06-17 22:32:06 +0200geekosaur(~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by allbery_b)))
2021-06-17 22:32:22 +0200allbery_bgeekosaur
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2021-06-17 22:35:05 +0200jmct(sid160793@id-160793.tinside.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
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2021-06-17 22:50:43 +0200ixlun(~matthew@213.205.241.86) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2021-06-17 22:55:41 +0200dhil(~dhil@80.208.56.181)
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2021-06-17 23:06:00 +0200agumonke`(~user@88.160.31.174) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2021-06-17 23:15:57 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
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2021-06-17 23:22:20 +0200curiousgay(~quassel@178.217.208.8)
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2021-06-17 23:44:23 +0200AlexZenon_midAlexZenon
2021-06-17 23:46:51 +0200Morrow(~Morrow@bzq-110-168-31-106.red.bezeqint.net)
2021-06-17 23:53:20 +0200Donvini(~Donvini@user/donvini) (Quit: WeeChat 3.1)
2021-06-17 23:55:39 +0200jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-06-17 23:57:31 +0200sheepduck(~sheepduck@cpe98524a8cef7c-cm98524a8cef7a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-06-17 23:59:20 +0200sheepduck(~sheepduck@cpe98524a8cef7c-cm98524a8cef7a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-06-17 23:59:38 +0200gehmehgeh(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)