IRCBrowse

2020/11/12

2020-11-12 00:00:50 +0100 <bqv> Also python, I guess, but that's what you get with yolotyping
2020-11-12 00:00:51 +0100 <dminuoso> But if we consider a module as a wholesale bundle containing everything there is about an implementation - namely functions *and* types, we can use that
2020-11-12 00:02:17 +0100jonatanb(~jonatanb@83.24.9.26.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl)
2020-11-12 00:02:32 +0100clynamen(~clynamen@109.116.4.71) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-11-12 00:02:56 +0100 <sm[m]> so a module is a bag of types, values, and operations on them ?
2020-11-12 00:03:00 +0100 <dminuoso> say we have both modules M and N defining a type t to be either String or Text, along with functions `f and h` producing and consuming that type t. If we parametrize some third module over a module that exposes t, f and h, we have a sort of modularity you couldn't have achieved before
2020-11-12 00:03:29 +0100 <dminuoso> sm[m]: Id consider operations as just values.
2020-11-12 00:03:40 +0100 <dminuoso> there's also other noise in haskell like typeclasses, instance, tyfams, etc
2020-11-12 00:03:47 +0100 <dminuoso> But yes.
2020-11-12 00:03:55 +0100 <dminuoso> Fundamentally it's a bag of types and values
2020-11-12 00:04:03 +0100 <sm[m]> yes, I'm trying to think abstractly, not about haskell specifically
2020-11-12 00:04:17 +0100adm(~adm@43.229.89.44) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-11-12 00:04:57 +0100 <dminuoso> sm[m]: Perhaps it could be useful to think of a module as a bag of *all* the things you can get from it through an import.
2020-11-12 00:05:14 +0100 <dminuoso> That is described a bit less suggestive
2020-11-12 00:05:21 +0100leungbk(~user@cpe-104-33-52-83.socal.res.rr.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-11-12 00:05:22 +0100sm[m]thinks more about the difference between modules and functions. A language could make those the same perhaps
2020-11-12 00:05:28 +0100 <dminuoso> (So it's a bag/list of "exported entities")
2020-11-12 00:05:47 +0100sm[m]thinks about modules and objects (eg in smalltalk)
2020-11-12 00:05:53 +0100 <dminuoso> If the entities is *just* values, like say in Python or JavaScript, it becomes just a boring dictionary
2020-11-12 00:06:00 +0100 <bqv> Are we going down the reflection route
2020-11-12 00:06:03 +0100 <dminuoso> And then the notion of module is really lacking and not interesting
2020-11-12 00:06:11 +0100__monty__(~toonn@unaffiliated/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2020-11-12 00:06:31 +0100sm[m]thinks about modules vs libraries
2020-11-12 00:06:33 +0100 <dminuoso> nix follows that route very heavily, where you just import more nix expressions
2020-11-12 00:06:41 +0100 <bqv> Not sure whether to make another lisp joke or switch to ruby
2020-11-12 00:06:48 +0100 <dminuoso> So you might be interested into looking how module nix code is often structured
2020-11-12 00:06:55 +0100 <dminuoso> as a counter example
2020-11-12 00:07:06 +0100 <monochrom> Yes, objects can be multiple-instance modules. Especially when your module has an internal mutable state.
2020-11-12 00:07:50 +0100 <dminuoso> sm[m]: Oh and regarding libraries, this all depends on how you define things. But generally Id say a library is a bunch of modules. So it's a collection of exported things. :p
2020-11-12 00:08:01 +0100 <monochrom> DNS functions on unixes used to be a module. Now they have to make them an object for re-entrancy and concurrency.
2020-11-12 00:08:15 +0100 <dminuoso> But, it could be conceivable to turn libraries into first class values too
2020-11-12 00:08:27 +0100 <dminuoso> And then have libraries parametrized by modules, libraries parametrized by other libraries..
2020-11-12 00:09:09 +0100brettgilio(~brettgili@brettgilio.com)
2020-11-12 00:09:30 +0100 <dminuoso> (strictly speaking, libraries *are* often parametrized by build flags or similar things)
2020-11-12 00:10:40 +0100 <sm[m]> we seem to have a number of different things for making software modular, and they're not all called module. And the meaning of "module" seems to drift a bit
2020-11-12 00:11:09 +0100visage_(~visage_@unaffiliated/visage/x-6658724)
2020-11-12 00:12:11 +0100 <sm[m]> in ocaml, "module" is a well-defined and important concept. In ghc haskell, it's well-defined but simpler and in practice a synonym for "file". In other languages I think it has some other meanings
2020-11-12 00:13:00 +0100 <dminuoso> modules in Haskell are more than files though
2020-11-12 00:13:38 +0100 <dminuoso> "A module defines a collection of values, datatypes, type synonyms, classes, etc. (see Chapter 4), in an environment created by a set of imports (resources brought into scope from other modules). It exports some of these resources, making them available to other modules. We use the term entity to refer to a value, type, or class defined in, imported into, or perhaps exported from a module. "
2020-11-12 00:13:43 +0100 <sm[m]> I believe you but is that visible in practice ?
2020-11-12 00:14:06 +0100 <dminuoso> Of course it is. Do you not export/import things across modules?
2020-11-12 00:14:32 +0100 <bqv> Ghc limits modules to 1 per file
2020-11-12 00:14:37 +0100 <bqv> Its not in the spec
2020-11-12 00:14:50 +0100 <sm[m]> yes, and conceptually it's as if exporting/importing files. Same thing in practice
2020-11-12 00:14:51 +0100 <sm[m]> ie in ghc haskell, module and files are one to one
2020-11-12 00:14:52 +0100 <dminuoso> Indeed, in fact the Haskell2010 report doesn't even have a notion of "files" anywhere
2020-11-12 00:14:57 +0100 <dminuoso> That's an implementation detail
2020-11-12 00:15:12 +0100 <sm[m]> I thought so, that's why I'm saying ghc haskell
2020-11-12 00:15:17 +0100 <sm[m]> I remember seeing multiple, perhaps nested modules defined in a single file somewhere
2020-11-12 00:15:50 +0100 <sm[m]> perhaps that was ocaml
2020-11-12 00:15:51 +0100 <dminuoso> There are some GHC proposals in that area
2020-11-12 00:16:06 +0100gtk(~user@roc37-h01-176-170-197-243.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr)
2020-11-12 00:16:06 +0100 <bqv> Interesting how ghci just ignores an IO (IO a)
2020-11-12 00:16:11 +0100 <dminuoso> And we had a talk during Munihac a while ago with some of the GHC developers about it
2020-11-12 00:17:24 +0100 <sm[m]> I think my working definition is: a module is an importable/exportable chunk of software
2020-11-12 00:17:30 +0100 <gtk> All primitive types are unlifted – can’t contain bottom. what does it mean bottom? why is it important or meaningful to contain a bottom?
2020-11-12 00:17:31 +0100 <dminuoso> sm[m]: https://github.com/goldfirere/ghc-proposals/blob/local-modules/proposals/0000-local-modules.rst
2020-11-12 00:17:54 +0100 <dminuoso> gtk: bottom is a name for "can contain error or infinite computation"
2020-11-12 00:18:13 +0100 <sm[m]> ie, a chunk of software whose visibility can be controlled
2020-11-12 00:18:31 +0100 <dminuoso> gtk: phrased differently, if its unlifted then it *definitely* is defined and has a value
2020-11-12 00:18:41 +0100 <sm[m]> thanks dminuoso
2020-11-12 00:18:53 +0100 <dminuoso> (in the implementation it means we dont need to represent it in a way that allows for bottom)
2020-11-12 00:19:42 +0100 <dminuoso> gtk: Roughly, you could pretend unboxed and unlifted to mean the same thing. We have both because there's things that happen to be boxed but unlifted
2020-11-12 00:19:46 +0100 <dminuoso> ByteArray# comes to mind
2020-11-12 00:20:07 +0100 <dminuoso> (So ByteArray# uses a boxed representation, but it cannot ever contain bottom)
2020-11-12 00:20:57 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-11-12 00:21:02 +0100 <gtk> So ByteArray# can not contain error?
2020-11-12 00:21:22 +0100 <bqv> • No instance for (Show (IO b0)) arising from a use of ‘print’
2020-11-12 00:21:26 +0100 <bqv> Uh, what
2020-11-12 00:22:27 +0100 <Rembane> bla >>= print
2020-11-12 00:22:30 +0100 <Rembane> Should work better
2020-11-12 00:22:45 +0100 <dminuoso> gtk: right
2020-11-12 00:22:49 +0100 <gtk> dminuoso: bottom means can contain error; so if ByteArray# don't contain bottom, it means the opposite of can contain error?
2020-11-12 00:22:53 +0100 <monochrom> bqv, if you have "foo :: IO (IO Int)", perhaps you have better luck telling ghci to "x <- foo", so as to sidestep the thorny question "how to print x :: IO Int"
2020-11-12 00:22:58 +0100 <dminuoso> gtk: Id rather say "bottom means not defined"
2020-11-12 00:23:10 +0100 <dminuoso> the reason I chose this phrasing is, becaue it could also be an infinite computation
2020-11-12 00:23:38 +0100 <bqv> Rembane: mm, seems it was hiding an error
2020-11-12 00:23:49 +0100 <gtk> is this infinite computation? [1..] dminuoso
2020-11-12 00:23:59 +0100 <dminuoso> `length [1..]` is
2020-11-12 00:24:18 +0100 <bqv> monochrom: I just didn't realise... I did <&> instead of >>= but couldn't tell cause it was just silent
2020-11-12 00:24:21 +0100 <dminuoso> It will not ever return a value, from a semantics position that however is indistinguishable from `error "foo"`
2020-11-12 00:24:21 +0100xerox_(~xerox@unaffiliated/xerox)
2020-11-12 00:24:32 +0100 <dminuoso> In both cases you don't get a value back
2020-11-12 00:24:39 +0100dansho(~dansho@ip68-108-167-185.lv.lv.cox.net)
2020-11-12 00:24:41 +0100conal(~conal@66.115.157.100) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-11-12 00:24:58 +0100alp(~alp@2a01:e0a:58b:4920:1845:95d6:9c3f:6683) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-11-12 00:26:06 +0100 <dminuoso> gtk: So in short: If its unboxed, its also necessarily unlifted
2020-11-12 00:26:09 +0100 <gtk> dminuoso: i still dont see the point of distinguishing lifted or primitive
2020-11-12 00:26:14 +0100 <dminuoso> (because it requires boxing in order to have bottom)
2020-11-12 00:26:46 +0100 <dminuoso> gtk: So boxing just means you have an additional level of indirection in memory
2020-11-12 00:26:59 +0100 <dminuoso> we need that boxing in order to represent say thunks
2020-11-12 00:27:15 +0100 <dminuoso> without that box, at best you could just have a value right there.
2020-11-12 00:27:27 +0100 <gtk> dminuoso: i sort of get boxed vs. unboxed; it seems boxed are in the land of haskell. but lifted is more baffling to understand
2020-11-12 00:27:41 +0100 <dminuoso> gtk: the term "lifted" is not interetsing
2020-11-12 00:27:46 +0100 <dminuoso> it's "unlifted" that is interesting
2020-11-12 00:27:49 +0100Iceland_jack(~user@95.149.219.123) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-11-12 00:28:15 +0100 <dminuoso> Like I said, the only reason to talk about lifted/unlifted is because of things like ByteArray#
2020-11-12 00:28:25 +0100carlomagno(~cararell@148.87.23.10) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-11-12 00:28:39 +0100 <gtk> when would you use Int# instead of just Int?
2020-11-12 00:28:44 +0100 <dminuoso> In GHC, ByteArray# exists on the heap, so that requires an indirection (thus boxing!)
2020-11-12 00:29:10 +0100 <dminuoso> But that's just an implementation issue, in principle we dont need to represent a thunk that could, possibly evalutae to error or infinite computation
2020-11-12 00:29:37 +0100 <monochrom> You have to consider how to implement laziness, and how to still have non-lazy, actual integers, in order to see you need both lifted and unlifted.
2020-11-12 00:30:08 +0100 <monochrom> If you have time, any of those lengthy STG papers/tutorials has it.
2020-11-12 00:30:09 +0100 <gtk> so unboxed are not lazy?
2020-11-12 00:30:13 +0100justsomeguy(~justsomeg@unaffiliated/--/x-3805311)
2020-11-12 00:30:15 +0100 <dminuoso> indeed.
2020-11-12 00:30:23 +0100 <dminuoso> they're just there, directly in memory
2020-11-12 00:30:37 +0100 <gtk> I'm begging to see through the cloud
2020-11-12 00:30:38 +0100 <dminuoso> if you had a pointer to an unboxed value, you could just read from that pointer
2020-11-12 00:30:45 +0100 <gtk> beginning
2020-11-12 00:30:49 +0100conal(~conal@66.115.157.100)
2020-11-12 00:30:51 +0100 <monochrom> If you have less time, https://github.com/takenobu-hs/haskell-ghc-illustrated is of reasonable length.
2020-11-12 00:31:45 +0100jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2020-11-12 00:31:58 +0100 <dminuoso> If it wasnt for things like ByteArray#, we wouldnt even have lifted/unlifted, we'd just have boxed/unboxed
2020-11-12 00:32:14 +0100 <dminuoso> (and implicitly know that boxed meant lifted, and unboxed meant unlifted)
2020-11-12 00:33:14 +0100 <monochrom> Yeah the 2nd axis is just because some non-lazy primitive things are too big so they must still sit on the heap.
2020-11-12 00:34:07 +0100 <dminuoso> So if you want the really short answer, replace "lifted" with "boxed", and "unlifted" with "unboxed", and then move on.
2020-11-12 00:34:08 +0100 <gtk> Is there any good tutorials on how GHC works?
2020-11-12 00:34:13 +0100 <dminuoso> That's an approximation that's perfectly fine
2020-11-12 00:34:19 +0100 <monochrom> "box" means exactly what Rust means by Box<T>.
2020-11-12 00:34:22 +0100 <dminuoso> gtk: monochrom linked a pretty good book above
2020-11-12 00:34:25 +0100 <monochrom> (How convenient!)
2020-11-12 00:34:35 +0100 <gtk> I've tried to read the wiki. But it's a bit daunting.
2020-11-12 00:34:47 +0100 <gtk> dminuoso: ok i'll chck it
2020-11-12 00:34:53 +0100 <dminuoso> well. "book"
2020-11-12 00:34:58 +0100 <dminuoso> its rather a pdf with some slides
2020-11-12 00:35:04 +0100 <monochrom> This is supposed to be daunting. Especially for people who have never written a compiler.
2020-11-12 00:35:08 +0100olligobber(olligobber@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/olligobber)
2020-11-12 00:35:18 +0100 <dminuoso> an industry grade compiler
2020-11-12 00:35:31 +0100 <dminuoso> With decades of research in its code base
2020-11-12 00:35:35 +0100 <monochrom> Nah, doesn't have to be that far.
2020-11-12 00:35:52 +0100 <dminuoso> oh
2020-11-12 00:35:57 +0100 <dminuoso> I read that statement wrong
2020-11-12 00:35:59 +0100son0p(~son0p@181.136.122.143) (Quit: leaving)
2020-11-12 00:36:04 +0100 <dminuoso> Or you understood my remark wrong
2020-11-12 00:36:08 +0100 <dminuoso> Either way
2020-11-12 00:36:19 +0100frdg(47b88ff9@pool-71-184-143-249.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-11-12 00:36:41 +0100 <gtk> Do you guys all take a complier theory class first right before understanding this stuff
2020-11-12 00:36:47 +0100 <monochrom> Having written a compiler, even a toy one, even for an imperative eager language, primes your mind to anticipate patience, craziness, and cool tricks when you level up to a harder compiler or language.
2020-11-12 00:36:50 +0100 <dminuoso> No, I dropped out of school
2020-11-12 00:37:38 +0100 <dminuoso> monochrom: heh, it wasnt until I wrote my very own kernel that I understood how to be mindful of writing cache aware code.
2020-11-12 00:38:11 +0100 <dminuoso> It's quite amazing how writing cache and pipeline aware code can easily bump up performance by a factor of 10.
2020-11-12 00:38:53 +0100 <Rembane> dminuoso: Why did you write your own kernel?
2020-11-12 00:39:15 +0100 <dminuoso> Rembane: The short answer, I wanted to understand what `return 0;` returned to in main in C.
2020-11-12 00:39:21 +0100_linker_(~linker@185.12.21.77) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-11-12 00:39:36 +0100 <Rembane> dminuoso: That sounds like quite a rabbit hole. Nice! :D
2020-11-12 00:40:48 +0100 <monochrom> A "computer organization" class is the minimum requirement for this stuff.
2020-11-12 00:41:12 +0100 <monochrom> If you don't know jack about stack, heap, registers, addresses, you have no chance.
2020-11-12 00:41:21 +0100 <gtk> I'm at the beginning chapters of the dragon book on compilers
2020-11-12 00:41:27 +0100carlomagno(~cararell@148.87.23.10)
2020-11-12 00:41:35 +0100 <dminuoso> In retrospect, the dragon book is not that good of a book
2020-11-12 00:41:52 +0100 <dminuoso> It doesn't cover the really interesting parts of a compiler, in my opinion
2020-11-12 00:41:53 +0100 <gtk> It's dated?
2020-11-12 00:42:05 +0100 <hekkaidekapus> sm[m]: GHC/Haskell has an extension to the Haskell-2010’s module system. It’s of course Backpack whose concern is about modular development, in the incremental and separate flavours. Haskell-2010 is grosso modo about the incremental flavour—what you called ‘module~file’.
2020-11-12 00:42:10 +0100 <dminuoso> But, if you're completley new to the subject, it's worth a read I guess.
2020-11-12 00:42:17 +0100 <dminuoso> gtk: being dated is not the problem at all
2020-11-12 00:42:23 +0100 <monochrom> And my "know stack" does not mean you've heard of it and can parrot talking about "non-tail call uses stack". I mean you have screwed around with the stack pointer register.
2020-11-12 00:42:32 +0100 <monochrom> at the asm level
2020-11-12 00:43:52 +0100 <bqv> :t GHC.Generics.to
2020-11-12 00:43:53 +0100 <lambdabot> GHC.Generics.Generic a => GHC.Generics.Rep a x -> a
2020-11-12 00:43:58 +0100 <bqv> This shadows lens :|
2020-11-12 00:44:21 +0100 <bqv> (it's reexported by protolude!)
2020-11-12 00:44:28 +0100 <monochrom> Oh, Appel's "modern compiler implementation in ML" is much better.
2020-11-12 00:45:02 +0100 <dminuoso> gtk: Also consider Types and Programming Languages if you are interested in compilers more. Sadly the dragon book doesn't really talk about types
2020-11-12 00:45:04 +0100 <gtk> monochrom: let me check that out too
2020-11-12 00:45:35 +0100 <dminuoso> And Appel is indeed a good read
2020-11-12 00:45:47 +0100 <gtk> I hope I dont need to understand too deeply about lambda calculus
2020-11-12 00:46:00 +0100 <gtk> I mean that would defintely kill me if i have to learn that too
2020-11-12 00:46:19 +0100 <dminuoso> Lambda calculus is very simple *shrugs*
2020-11-12 00:47:04 +0100dhouthoo(~dhouthoo@ptr-eiv6509pb4ifhdr9lsd.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-11-12 00:47:53 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-11-12 00:48:18 +0100 <gtk> dminuoso: great moment of solitude for you
2020-11-12 00:49:04 +0100 <monochrom> lambda calculus is simple or complex depending on how many theorems you're required to prove about it.
2020-11-12 00:49:09 +0100nbloomf(~nbloomf@2600:1700:ad14:3020:e4ec:2d0a:6536:c606) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2020-11-12 00:49:25 +0100darjeeling_(~darjeelin@122.245.210.116) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-11-12 00:50:03 +0100 <monochrom> it's rather like playing the piano or many (though not all) musical instruments.
2020-11-12 00:50:24 +0100 <dminuoso> Or like category theory. Can explain it to 8 year old kids
2020-11-12 00:50:35 +0100 <monochrom> If I just ask you to evaluate (\x. x x)(\y. y y) or just play one C major scale, that's simple.
2020-11-12 00:50:37 +0100 <gtk> monochrom: that Appel book can be easily translated to Haskell right?
2020-11-12 00:51:00 +0100jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@c-73-29-224-10.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2020-11-12 00:51:04 +0100 <monochrom> But proving confluence or playing a Liszt piece... You quickly learn that humanity can take any simple thing and turn it into a monster.
2020-11-12 00:52:28 +0100 <gtk> Profunctors, contravariant...too damn difficult. I can't imaging how people managed to write stuff like the Lens library. I mean from beginner to that level, it's hard to find the path
2020-11-12 00:52:42 +0100 <dminuoso> gtk: what's your overall goal?
2020-11-12 00:52:53 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-11-12 00:52:55 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2020-11-12 00:53:02 +0100 <monochrom> It did take ekmett some 10 years, no?
2020-11-12 00:53:07 +0100 <dminuoso> gtk: Also, https://patrickmn.com/software/the-haskell-pyramid/
2020-11-12 00:53:18 +0100 <dminuoso> Understanding the basics of lens is actually wonderfully simple.
2020-11-12 00:53:37 +0100 <dminuoso> When I was a beginner, ertes-w had a series of simple excercises, leading me to come up with lenses myself easily
2020-11-12 00:53:42 +0100 <monochrom> When I was a kid I was like "I can't imagine how I would make it to university. I keep hearing it's really hard."
2020-11-12 00:53:50 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-73-24-27-54.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-11-12 00:54:03 +0100 <monochrom> When I got into university I was like "I can't imagine how I would make it to PhD, I keep hearing it's really hard".
2020-11-12 00:54:07 +0100 <monochrom> Then I got a PhD.
2020-11-12 00:54:13 +0100 <dminuoso> Now I just look at optics-core and realize "oh well, profunctor optics really isn't *too* different from van laarhoven lenses..."
2020-11-12 00:54:24 +0100 <dminuoso> monochrom: So what's hard for you now?
2020-11-12 00:54:40 +0100 <monochrom> Getting tenure? I think I'm too old for that now. :)
2020-11-12 00:54:55 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-11-12 00:55:03 +0100 <gtk> monochrom: do you teach haskell?
2020-11-12 00:55:09 +0100 <gtk> at your university?
2020-11-12 00:55:11 +0100 <monochrom> You just have to build up one step at a time.
2020-11-12 00:55:14 +0100 <dminuoso> monochrom: Huh? How old are you?
2020-11-12 00:55:17 +0100 <monochrom> 50
2020-11-12 00:55:25 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2020-11-12 00:55:31 +0100 <dminuoso> Somehow I always imagined you to be 30.
2020-11-12 00:55:39 +0100 <dminuoso> You *read* like you're 30!
2020-11-12 00:55:40 +0100 <monochrom> Me too.
2020-11-12 00:55:47 +0100 <Uniaika> oh damn
2020-11-12 00:56:08 +0100 <dminuoso> gtk: Anyhow, take a look at my last link
2020-11-12 00:56:12 +0100 <dminuoso> Let it sink in, and dont rush into things.
2020-11-12 00:56:23 +0100 <gtk> got it
2020-11-12 00:56:30 +0100 <dminuoso> Focus on getting productive, not trying to absorb all the things you think are necessary
2020-11-12 00:56:34 +0100 <monochrom> I decided that I should just not worry about age (apart from watching out for health, of course).
2020-11-12 00:57:02 +0100 <dminuoso> Mmm, that formally puts you into risk category on covid, doesnt it?
2020-11-12 00:57:18 +0100 <dminuoso> Somewhat relatedly, are you still teaching currently? In presence?
2020-11-12 00:57:39 +0100 <monochrom> Don't worry, I stay home, online teaching.
2020-11-12 00:58:02 +0100conal(~conal@66.115.157.100) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-11-12 00:58:16 +0100 <monochrom> I have always kept a child-like curious mind. That helps a lot.
2020-11-12 00:58:30 +0100 <monochrom> (towards imposting a young person)
2020-11-12 00:58:42 +0100 <dminuoso> imposting?
2020-11-12 00:58:46 +0100 <dminuoso> Is that a word?
2020-11-12 00:58:52 +0100 <monochrom> I don't know!
2020-11-12 00:58:55 +0100 <Uniaika> impersonating maybe?
2020-11-12 00:59:04 +0100 <Rembane> Impostorating!
2020-11-12 00:59:05 +0100 <monochrom> imposter syndrome -> imposting
2020-11-12 00:59:06 +0100Rembanenods
2020-11-12 00:59:20 +0100 <dminuoso> imposternizing
2020-11-12 00:59:36 +0100 <Rembane> Postmoderinising imp e
2020-11-12 00:59:57 +0100 <gtk> Simon jones also imposting a child. he doesn have to though,haha
2020-11-12 01:00:01 +0100paulk-collins(~paulk-col@195.206.169.184) ()
2020-11-12 01:00:44 +0100 <dminuoso> How does one impost a young person with that.. etymology monochrom?
2020-11-12 01:00:54 +0100 <dminuoso> You should make an entry in merriam webster
2020-11-12 01:01:27 +0100 <dminuoso> Or is this some obscure form of Canadian humor?
2020-11-12 01:01:38 +0100jonatanb(~jonatanb@83.24.9.26.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-11-12 01:01:59 +0100 <jackdk> Does anyone know if the isos with the following types have a canonical name anywhere? `Iso' (Compose f Identity a) (f a)` and `Iso' (Compose Identity f a) (f a)`
2020-11-12 01:02:00 +0100 <monochrom> perhaps simply ESL
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2020-11-12 01:02:37 +0100sdrodge(~sdrodge@unaffiliated/sdrodge) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-11-12 01:03:54 +0100 <dminuoso> jackdk: categories calls them idl and idr
2020-11-12 01:04:06 +0100 <dminuoso> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/categories-1.0.7/docs/Control-Category-Monoidal.html
2020-11-12 01:04:24 +0100 <dminuoso> Not sure whether that's "canonical"
2020-11-12 01:04:45 +0100 <dminuoso> But I'd suspect they'd always go with `idr` `identityR` or some such.
2020-11-12 01:05:25 +0100 <dminuoso> (or you could call them lambda/rho)
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2020-11-12 01:15:15 +0100 <bqv> Anyone used lazyio?
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2020-11-12 01:17:49 +0100 <sm[m]> has anybody seen automated tests for a vty/brick app ? I tried with expect and empty but did not get there - https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/tree/master/tests/ui
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2020-11-12 01:41:30 +0100hackagepolysemy-extra 0.1.2.0 - Extra Input and Output functions for polysemy.. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/polysemy-extra-0.1.2.0 (locallycompact)
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2020-11-12 01:46:13 +0100 <bqv> Ooh..
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2020-11-12 01:48:31 +0100hackagepolysemy-vinyl 0.1.1.0 - Functions for mapping vinyl records in polysemy. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/polysemy-vinyl-0.1.1.0 (locallycompact)
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2020-11-12 02:57:52 +0100 <bqv> Translating imperative code to funct
2020-11-12 02:57:59 +0100 <bqv> onal is a pain
2020-11-12 02:57:59 +0100tabemann(~tabemann@172-13-49-137.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net)
2020-11-12 02:58:17 +0100dbmikus__(~dbmikus@cpe-76-167-86-219.natsow.res.rr.com)
2020-11-12 02:58:36 +0100 <bqv> requires full redesign, not just porting
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2020-11-12 03:00:41 +0100 <sm[m]> it's often said that you can replicate imperative code in haskell. It's true, but not often done. If the techniques were better known it might be used a bit more
2020-11-12 03:01:01 +0100wwwww(~wwwww@unaffiliated/wwwww)
2020-11-12 03:01:56 +0100 <bqv> I mean you can, it's just not ergonomic to write or efficient to run
2020-11-12 03:02:05 +0100Varis(~Tadas@unaffiliated/varis)
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2020-11-12 03:17:38 +0100sdrodge(~sdrodge@unaffiliated/sdrodge)
2020-11-12 03:17:57 +0100 <koz_> bqv: I dunno why you claim the latter. ST is pretty efficient IIRC.
2020-11-12 03:18:09 +0100angerman(sid209936@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vpzhonusupvskvmg) (Excess Flood)
2020-11-12 03:18:19 +0100angerman(sid209936@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mlhkemfvngmbvuol)
2020-11-12 03:19:28 +0100 <bqv> My gut feeling is it wouldnt be as effective as the pure haskell approach, since its kinda a mixture of both, but im happy to be corrected
2020-11-12 03:20:43 +0100 <koz_> bqv: If you need mutability (which is what I guess the problem in translation would be), you can have it with ST.
2020-11-12 03:21:06 +0100 <koz_> And it's pretty efficient as far as I'm aware.
2020-11-12 03:23:22 +0100 <bqv> For the specific example im looking at (nasty nested for loops) i wouldnt doubt, but if i were to try and use it for the whole port im doing, id have to find an analogue for pointers too, as well as any freaky memory tricks, so i think its fair to assume it'd be less effective without some pretty sharp optimizing
2020-11-12 03:23:57 +0100 <koz_> Uhh, we have pointers in GHC.
2020-11-12 03:24:00 +0100 <koz_> Of various stripes even.
2020-11-12 03:24:19 +0100 <koz_> And you can have 'nasty nested for-loops' in ST using ... wait for it... 'for'? :P
2020-11-12 03:24:28 +0100 <koz_> (or for_ if you just need mutation)
2020-11-12 03:25:01 +0100 <koz_> Like, I admit that it's not the nicest way to write Haskell, but it's neither particularly hard, nor particularly inefficient.
2020-11-12 03:25:27 +0100 <bqv> *shrug* i'll take your word for it, still steering clear
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2020-11-12 03:37:31 +0100 <jophish> Perhaps I'm having a moment, but is there a nicer way of using values at compile time in quasiquotes than: $(lift [q|...|]). For example, lets say I have a quasiquoter doing string interpolation (so [q|$x$y|] becomes `x <> y`) but I'd like to evaluate that at compile time
2020-11-12 03:37:41 +0100 <jophish> $(lift foo) seems pretty weird
2020-11-12 03:37:52 +0100da39a3ee5e6b4b0d(~da39a3ee5@cm-171-98-69-228.revip7.asianet.co.th)
2020-11-12 03:38:13 +0100 <jophish> I mean, I guess I could incorporate the lift into the output of the quoter, but $([q|...|]) also looks quite clumsy
2020-11-12 03:38:59 +0100Sheilong(uid293653@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-amyflsszyhqepalq) ()
2020-11-12 03:39:26 +0100jonatanb(~jonatanb@83.24.9.26.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl)
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2020-11-12 03:41:56 +0100 <koz_> If you have QuasiQuotes turned on, and 'q' is a quasiquoter you defined, you can just do [q|..|]?
2020-11-12 03:43:17 +0100 <jophish> [q|$x$y|] will insert the expression `x <> y` (for this interpolating quasiquoter), but what I really want is a string literal with contents equal to `x <> y`
2020-11-12 03:43:28 +0100elliott_(~elliott_@pool-108-51-141-12.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-11-12 03:43:41 +0100 <jophish> stage restrictions notwithstanding
2020-11-12 03:44:01 +0100jonatanb(~jonatanb@83.24.9.26.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-11-12 03:44:08 +0100Sgeo(~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net)
2020-11-12 03:44:22 +0100 <jophish> I suppose perhaps a simpler example is, can I write a quasiquoter [file|x|] which will become the results of: `readFile x`
2020-11-12 03:44:33 +0100 <jophish> instead of becoming literally `readFile x`
2020-11-12 03:45:08 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-11-12 03:45:28 +0100 <jophish> This is tantamount to getting the RHS of declarations in a splice
2020-11-12 03:45:31 +0100 <jophish> which GHC doesn't support
2020-11-12 03:45:51 +0100 <jophish> so perhaps this two stage process (i.e. $([q|...|])) is necessary
2020-11-12 03:47:12 +0100elliott_(~elliott_@pool-108-51-141-12.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
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2020-11-12 03:50:15 +0100xff0x(~fox@2001:1a81:53be:a900:d560:4ea6:2896:65fd)
2020-11-12 03:51:18 +0100 <jophish> Seems quite relevant: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/48489622/why-is-there-no-representation-for-th-in-th
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2020-11-12 04:19:31 +0100hackageimplicit-hie 0.1.2.2 - Auto generate hie-bios cradles & hie.yaml https://hackage.haskell.org/package/implicit-hie-0.1.2.2 (Avi_Dessauer)
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2020-11-12 04:46:32 +0100 <zeta_0> hey there i'm trying to get hls to work in emacs, but it's throwing this error? `Command "hie-wrapper --lsp -d -l /tmp/hie.log" is not present on the path.
2020-11-12 04:46:32 +0100 <zeta_0> `, I thought that is automatically set by default? https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-haskell
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2020-11-12 04:48:00 +0100 <zeta_0> note, i installed hls with nix, from nixpkgs, and the binary is there, so I have no idea what the issue is!
2020-11-12 04:48:20 +0100glguywonders if hls works with the spacemacs haskell lyaer
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2020-11-12 04:48:46 +0100 <zeta_0> i'm using plain generic emacs!
2020-11-12 04:49:11 +0100 <glguy> I'm not; I'm using spacemacs :)
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2020-11-12 04:54:01 +0100hackageimplicit-hie 0.1.2.3 - Auto generate hie-bios cradles & hie.yaml https://hackage.haskell.org/package/implicit-hie-0.1.2.3 (Avi_Dessauer)
2020-11-12 04:56:03 +0100 <zeta_0> here's my lsp-config that i'm using in my .emacs config: https://dpaste.org/U7Lb , any tips on how to fix this: `Command "hie-wrapper --lsp -d -l /tmp/hie.log" is not present on the path.
2020-11-12 04:56:03 +0100 <zeta_0> ` issue?
2020-11-12 04:56:21 +0100 <zeta_0> lsp-haskell config that is!
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2020-11-12 04:58:18 +0100 <zeta_0> i ran hie-gen as well, so that should't be an issue, and I installed hls with nix, and hls's binary is in the path, so i'm not sure where to go from here.
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2020-11-12 05:56:55 +0100 <glguy> The answer is that it's very easy to get it working with spacemacs, as it turns out
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2020-11-12 07:03:59 +0100 <dsal> @hoogle ((<&>))
2020-11-12 07:04:00 +0100 <lambdabot> Prelude undefined :: forall (r :: RuntimeRep) . forall (a :: TYPE r) . HasCallStack => a
2020-11-12 07:04:00 +0100 <lambdabot> Control.Exception.Base absentSumFieldError :: a
2020-11-12 07:04:00 +0100 <lambdabot> Text.Printf errorShortFormat :: a
2020-11-12 07:04:17 +0100 <dsal> Hmm... I'm trying to remember a thing that exists...
2020-11-12 07:04:57 +0100 <dsal> There's a thing like <|> but not applicative.
2020-11-12 07:06:32 +0100 <dsal> Ah, it's <!>
2020-11-12 07:07:07 +0100Amras(~Amras@unaffiliated/amras0000) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-11-12 07:08:25 +0100 <dsal> Nah, still not what I want. I think I'm trying to be too fancy.
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2020-11-12 07:29:21 +0100Echosolacre(999b6f7e@p320126-omed01.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
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2020-11-12 07:31:09 +0100 <Echosolacre> Hey all, I'm still a beginner and I am wondering how to read this... on :: (b -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> a -> c. Is this to say that the typeclass of on is defined by a binary function which maps to a unary function which maps to a twice and then outputs c?
2020-11-12 07:31:24 +0100 <Echosolacre> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.0.0/docs/Data-Function.html
2020-11-12 07:31:31 +0100 <Echosolacre> I'm following the above.
2020-11-12 07:31:46 +0100 <Echosolacre> Going through LYAH and this on function is throwing me a bit.
2020-11-12 07:32:18 +0100 <Echosolacre> Any thoughts would be greatly appeciated.
2020-11-12 07:34:22 +0100ericsagnes(~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:dc2f:c1a2:afcc:89b0) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2020-11-12 07:40:54 +0100hiroaki(~hiroaki@ip4d168e73.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2020-11-12 07:43:13 +0100 <jackdk> I think you have the idea right, but avoid using the word "typeclass" to describe this, because that's a specific concept in haskell
2020-11-12 07:43:46 +0100 <jackdk> I think it's clearer if you add parens that are not strictly necessary: `on :: (b -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> (a -> a -> c)`
2020-11-12 07:43:48 +0100 <jackdk> gtg
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2020-11-12 07:48:11 +0100 <Echosolacre> I have a really basic question about what Jackdk just said. When you look at (b -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> (a -> a -> c), I think of it like there is a function that takes a variable, maps it to the same variable, and then outputs a different variable. (b -> b-> c).
2020-11-12 07:48:18 +0100Sanchayan(~Sanchayan@122.181.216.76)
2020-11-12 07:48:20 +0100 <Echosolacre> Sorry, this understanding is probably way off.
2020-11-12 07:48:32 +0100 <Echosolacre> How do you guys read these sections of the code?
2020-11-12 07:49:33 +0100 <Echosolacre> '->' is plain speak is "map to", no?
2020-11-12 07:49:44 +0100 <Echosolacre> plain speak for*
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2020-11-12 08:02:02 +0100 <c_wraith> I generally don't read code in words.
2020-11-12 08:02:08 +0100 <c_wraith> They're too limiting
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2020-11-12 08:52:52 +0100 <dminuoso> jackdk: btw did you settle on a name for those isos?
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2020-11-12 09:29:01 +0100hackagefuthark 0.18.3 - An optimising compiler for a functional, array-oriented language. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/futhark-0.18.3 (TroelsHenriksen)
2020-11-12 09:29:48 +0100daydaynatation(~user@roc37-h01-176-170-197-243.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr)
2020-11-12 09:30:15 +0100 <daydaynatation> cabal install gtk -f have-quartz-gtk, what does the -f mean?
2020-11-12 09:30:30 +0100 <c_wraith> it sets a flag
2020-11-12 09:31:14 +0100 <c_wraith> the cabal file uses the flag in conditionals that can affect lots of things. in this, most likely the native dependency
2020-11-12 09:31:29 +0100 <daydaynatation> I see.
2020-11-12 09:31:41 +0100 <c_wraith> I'd take that flag to mean it's the quartz version of gtk, rather than the X version
2020-11-12 09:32:03 +0100 <c_wraith> (because even on OS X, you can run an X server and build GTK for X)
2020-11-12 09:32:31 +0100 <daydaynatation> I've successfully build and installed gtk with the above command
2020-11-12 09:33:01 +0100hackageghc-exactprint 0.6.3.3 - ExactPrint for GHC https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-exactprint-0.6.3.3 (AlanZimmerman)
2020-11-12 09:33:02 +0100jedws(~jedws@101.184.175.183)
2020-11-12 09:33:04 +0100 <daydaynatation> but when I try cabal install threadscope which requires gtk, it not only requires me to build gtk again, but it also failed
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2020-11-12 09:36:05 +0100 <merijn> Oh, let me guess you have cabal-install 3.0 or later?
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2020-11-12 09:37:24 +0100 <merijn> See, this why we should've banned feature flags from Hackage years ago to stop people from building things that are just cursed and broken >.>
2020-11-12 09:38:50 +0100jedws(~jedws@101.184.175.183)
2020-11-12 09:39:06 +0100 <daydaynatation> merijn: yes, version 3.2
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2020-11-12 09:41:52 +0100 <merijn> daydaynatation: You are getting hosed by gtk abusing things in ways they're not supposed to and that accidentally working for years...
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2020-11-12 09:42:47 +0100 <merijn> daydaynatation: Try the following: clone threadscope from github, change directory to it, then use "cabal install --projectfile=cabal.project.osx"
2020-11-12 09:43:25 +0100jonatanb(~jonatanb@83.24.9.26.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl)
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2020-11-12 09:44:05 +0100christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-11-12 09:45:31 +0100 <merijn> daydaynatation: Essentially, flags were never intended to and shouldn't affect the public API/build setup of packages, but people abuse them for that anyway. Which worked fine in old cabal-install's because it would use "whatever version was already installed" (like the gtk you installed just now). But in >3.0 the buildplan doesn't depend on what's already installed
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2020-11-12 09:49:00 +0100 <tomsmeding> can't you tell cabal to set a flag on some particular package in the dependency tree?
2020-11-12 09:49:15 +0100 <merijn> tomsmeding: In cabal.project, yes. Not in your cabal file
2020-11-12 09:49:20 +0100 <tomsmeding> ah right
2020-11-12 09:49:22 +0100 <merijn> tomsmeding: And that is intentional
2020-11-12 09:49:43 +0100 <merijn> So people can't use flags to control what feature/API is exposed
2020-11-12 09:49:47 +0100 <tomsmeding> to be fair, is there another way for packages like gtk to have public "parameters"?
2020-11-12 09:49:50 +0100whatisRT(~whatisRT@2002:5b41:6a33:0:80a8:2f65:adf1:4c95)
2020-11-12 09:49:51 +0100 <merijn> But, of course, that's not stopped anyone
2020-11-12 09:50:20 +0100 <merijn> tomsmeding: Make a core library that's wrapped by gtk-quartz and gtk-x11
2020-11-12 09:50:53 +0100 <merijn> Also, the (now mostly stalled) work on backpack
2020-11-12 09:50:54 +0100 <tomsmeding> because this feels like a so-called desire path :p
2020-11-12 09:51:12 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@unaffiliated/cfricke)
2020-11-12 09:51:53 +0100 <merijn> tomsmeding: You need to invert your interface so instead of conditionally depending on something you wrap. See persistent and the various persistent-postgres, persistent-sqlite, etc. wrappers
2020-11-12 09:52:06 +0100 <merijn> Selda does the same, diagrams does that
2020-11-12 09:52:15 +0100 <tomsmeding> yeah I've seen the pattern
2020-11-12 09:52:23 +0100 <benschza> Good morning everyone! I've been exploring Arrows and Yampa, and have reached a type error that I'm struggling to interpret. The resulting type seems so close, but I'm using this as a project to continue learning Haskell, so I'm in the deep end. `Expected type: SF (SF () State) (Event (SF () State))` and `Actual type: SF State (Event (SF () State))` - here's a gist: https://gist.github.com/BenSchZA/57f1f46ec8e2ecc0f304ede813e5f4eb I think my
2020-11-12 09:52:23 +0100 <benschza> question is two fold, what am I missing, and how can I improve my translation of Arrow proc notation into pure Arrow notation. Appreciate any guidance!
2020-11-12 09:52:28 +0100Yumasi(~guillaume@2a01cb09b06b29ea6448a1be2d68fad7.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2020-11-12 09:53:07 +0100 <merijn> benschza: I think there's, like, a handful of people who actually know/understand Arrow notation :p
2020-11-12 09:53:30 +0100hackagephonetic-languages-constaints 0.3.0.0 - Constraints to filter the needed permutations https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-constaints-0.3.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
2020-11-12 09:54:12 +0100 <merijn> tomsmeding: The only other option is to modify Cabal to allow people to specify constraints on their *transitive* dependencies, which is clearly a nightmare
2020-11-12 09:54:47 +0100 <tomsmeding> benschza: this is probably ghc doing type inference and showing the error far from where it actually occurred. Suggestion: add lots of manual type signatures on your intermediate values, and see where it doesn't match up with reality
2020-11-12 09:55:25 +0100 <tomsmeding> merijn: indeed that would be interesting if you have two dependencies A and B that both depend on different configurations of a single package C
2020-11-12 09:55:31 +0100 <benschza> tomsmeding: Thanks! I'll give that a try.
2020-11-12 09:55:46 +0100 <[exa]> benschza: btw if you didn't use a type hole yet, now is the time :]
2020-11-12 09:56:36 +0100thir(~thir@p200300f27f0b7e00894576386620b0d0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
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2020-11-12 09:57:40 +0100 <benschza> [exa]: I'll have to Google that :) Thanks for the pointer.
2020-11-12 09:57:51 +0100 <merijn> tomsmeding: In the end, I understand why the desire path is there, but some things are required/blocked for a reason, see also: people complaining about needing to write out module lists, people complaining about maintaining upperbounds, etc.
2020-11-12 09:58:20 +0100 <tomsmeding> true enough
2020-11-12 09:58:23 +0100 <merijn> As always, these problems are "trivial" if you just throw long term stability/usability under the bus
2020-11-12 09:58:44 +0100 <merijn> But if you think about how things should work long term, it just can't work
2020-11-12 09:58:54 +0100 <[exa]> benschza: basically you add ` :: _ ` after anything and the compiler reports on what it thinks should be in place of the _
2020-11-12 09:59:19 +0100 <[exa]> (same for values)
2020-11-12 10:00:01 +0100RISCi_ATOM1(~RISCi_ATO@185.163.110.116) ()
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2020-11-12 10:06:39 +0100 <daydaynatation> merijn: cabal complain that it doesn recognize --projectfile=...
2020-11-12 10:06:50 +0100 <daydaynatation> is it the right flag? I checked ont he user guide, couldn't find
2020-11-12 10:06:52 +0100 <merijn> oh, maybe it's --project-file?
2020-11-12 10:07:07 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-239.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2020-11-12 10:07:22 +0100kritzefitz(~kritzefit@p2e5a5f99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2020-11-12 10:07:49 +0100 <daydaynatation> thx
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2020-11-12 10:19:55 +0100 <maerwald> was there a cabal helper tool that bumps version bounds of your package?
2020-11-12 10:20:33 +0100 <merijn> I think someone was working on one at some point?
2020-11-12 10:21:11 +0100 <maerwald> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal-bounds
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2020-11-12 10:30:34 +0100 <dminuoso> Is there a safe variant of fromIntegral anywhere?
2020-11-12 10:30:54 +0100 <dminuoso> I need runtime verification, not static.
2020-11-12 10:31:13 +0100 <merijn> dminuoso: I recommend a strong whisky and crying :)
2020-11-12 10:31:40 +0100 <maerwald> Glendronach 21
2020-11-12 10:31:57 +0100 <merijn> Sadness goes better with Islay
2020-11-12 10:32:03 +0100 <dminuoso> maerwald: Does that go well with Cola or better in tea?
2020-11-12 10:32:07 +0100 <maerwald> dude
2020-11-12 10:32:17 +0100 <merijn> dminuoso: I know you're joking and I'm still mad
2020-11-12 10:32:28 +0100SeMas(uid32977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ccoximdwznrvbzyv) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2020-11-12 10:32:41 +0100 <dminuoso> merijn: I have quite a few whiskey fans, it triggers them every time. ;)
2020-11-12 10:33:09 +0100 <dminuoso> Or *whisky I guess
2020-11-12 10:33:09 +0100 <merijn> Whisky cola is fine, but just use shitty whisky >.>
2020-11-12 10:33:16 +0100 <maerwald> so you're a whisky?
2020-11-12 10:33:38 +0100 <merijn> Good whisky in cola ruins both your whisky and your cola (and your wallet) :p
2020-11-12 10:33:41 +0100 <dminuoso> Maybe the problem is that whisky connoisseurs don't use high quality cola for mixing their whisky.
2020-11-12 10:34:04 +0100 <[exa]> "high-quality cola" please elaborate
2020-11-12 10:34:11 +0100 <dminuoso> On a slightly more serious note, Im pondering getting these "cooling stones" for whisky.
2020-11-12 10:34:18 +0100 <dminuoso> But not for cooling it, but for heating rum.
2020-11-12 10:34:52 +0100 <dminuoso> Getting rum up to 25-28 degrees brings out quite a few flavors
2020-11-12 10:35:09 +0100 <merijn> I recommend we move this to offtopic :p
2020-11-12 10:35:13 +0100 <dminuoso> Indeed.
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2020-11-12 10:40:30 +0100hackagepolysemy-extra 0.1.3.0 - Extra Input and Output functions for polysemy.. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/polysemy-extra-0.1.3.0 (locallycompact)
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2020-11-12 10:50:39 +0100 <dminuoso> merijn: on a more serious note, am I expected to just manually compare with maxBound?
2020-11-12 10:50:58 +0100 <dminuoso> Why is there no freaking numeric conversion with error handling in base?
2020-11-12 10:51:29 +0100 <dminuoso> Is it just assumed that narrowing cant possibly happening? Or that when it happens, its semantics (what are they?) are obviously what you want?
2020-11-12 10:51:33 +0100 <merijn> dminuoso: On a more seriouse note, I had to handroll it and you get awkward conversion too
2020-11-12 10:51:52 +0100 <dminuoso> Dont people ever deal with numbers? :(
2020-11-12 10:52:04 +0100 <dminuoso> Im so close to just use Integer everywhere.
2020-11-12 10:52:06 +0100 <merijn> dminuoso: I welcome any suggestions/things in GHC that improve this
2020-11-12 10:52:29 +0100 <merijn> dminuoso: It's somewhere down on my yak shaving list
2020-11-12 10:54:09 +0100nek0(~nek0@mail.nek0.eu)
2020-11-12 10:57:30 +0100hackagephonetic-languages-constraints 0.3.0.1 - Constraints to filter the needed permutations https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-constraints-0.3.0.1 (OleksandrZhabenko)
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2020-11-12 12:36:30 +0100Emerald(8ba7aee6@139.167.174.230)
2020-11-12 12:37:56 +0100 <trcc> Hi. I am trying to figure out why the haskell visual studio code extension fails to detect my stack installation. I have just followed the very initial steps of "Start your new project" here: https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/README/. WHen I open the folder in vscode then I get: "ghcide: unable to load package `ghc-prim-0.5.3` compiler [1,1]". Any ideas?
2020-11-12 12:38:21 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-11-12 12:38:21 +0100bergsans(~bergsans@c80-217-8-29.bredband.comhem.se)
2020-11-12 12:39:08 +0100 <benschza> [exa] and tomsmeding: thanks to your pointers I got the types right for the Arrows/Yampa problem.
2020-11-12 12:41:01 +0100hackagephonetic-languages-examples 0.4.0.0 - A generalization of the uniqueness-periods-vector-examples functionality. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-examples-0.4.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
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2020-11-12 13:00:01 +0100tsmango(~tsmango@178.239.168.171) ()
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2020-11-12 13:11:13 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@207.253.244.210)
2020-11-12 13:14:38 +0100 <nshepperd2> > fromIntegral 12345678 :: Word8
2020-11-12 13:14:40 +0100 <lambdabot> 78
2020-11-12 13:15:17 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@207.253.244.210) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-11-12 13:16:43 +0100 <Taneb> This is because 12345600 = 256 * 48225 and Word8 wraps
2020-11-12 13:17:02 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@207.253.244.210)
2020-11-12 13:17:38 +0100jamm_(~jamm@unaffiliated/jamm)
2020-11-12 13:17:45 +0100machined1od(~machinedg@207.253.244.210)
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2020-11-12 13:21:15 +0100 <nshepperd> seems reasonable
2020-11-12 13:23:59 +0100 <Taneb> Dumb idea: Word6.644ish, that wraps at 100
2020-11-12 13:26:31 +0100hackagephonetic-languages-constraints 0.3.2.0 - Constraints to filter the needed permutations https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-constraints-0.3.2.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
2020-11-12 13:31:54 +0100 <nshepperd> heh
2020-11-12 13:34:39 +0100neiluj(~jco@unaffiliated/neiluj) (Quit: leaving)
2020-11-12 13:38:01 +0100 <pjb> nshepperd: seems idiotic. That's how you destroy rockets.
2020-11-12 13:38:25 +0100alp(~alp@2a01:e0a:58b:4920:5893:9820:69f2:6f2)
2020-11-12 13:38:46 +0100 <merijn> pjb: Well, what do you propose, then
2020-11-12 13:39:00 +0100 <pjb> bigints.
2020-11-12 13:39:12 +0100 <merijn> That seems rather unrelated
2020-11-12 13:39:13 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-11-12 13:39:25 +0100 <pjb> yeah…
2020-11-12 13:39:34 +0100acarrico(~acarrico@dhcp-68-142-39-249.greenmountainaccess.net)
2020-11-12 13:40:00 +0100 <pjb> It should signal an error.
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2020-11-12 13:41:35 +0100 <merijn> Feel free to define proper semantics for that
2020-11-12 13:41:41 +0100 <merijn> Many people have tried and failed :)
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2020-11-12 14:01:31 +0100hackagevulkan-utils 0.1.3 - Utils for the vulkan package https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vulkan-utils-0.1.3 (jophish)
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2020-11-12 14:07:11 +0100 <xerox_> will ghc run on the arm macs straight away?
2020-11-12 14:08:04 +0100 <merijn> Who knows
2020-11-12 14:08:18 +0100 <jophish> do the GHC team have one of the dev boxeS?
2020-11-12 14:08:26 +0100 <merijn> Probably not
2020-11-12 14:08:50 +0100 <merijn> ARM has tier 2 support, currently, iirc
2020-11-12 14:10:07 +0100texasmynsted(~texasmyns@212.102.45.118)
2020-11-12 14:10:14 +0100 <merijn> So the answer to "will GHC run on ARM macs?" is "that depends how much effort you will contribute to that cause" ;)
2020-11-12 14:10:48 +0100texasmyn_(~texasmyns@212.102.45.118)
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2020-11-12 14:11:41 +0100 <merijn> I know angerman is doing a lot of stuff w.r.t Aarch64 support in GHC
2020-11-12 14:12:19 +0100AlterEgo-(~ladew@124-198-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2020-11-12 14:12:31 +0100Amras(~Amras@unaffiliated/amras0000)
2020-11-12 14:12:38 +0100 <angerman> xerox_: yes; jophish: yes, I have a DTK on my desk.
2020-11-12 14:13:05 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@213.178.26.41) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-11-12 14:13:10 +0100 <angerman> xerox_: you can use rosetta2, ghc works well enough to build a native ghc.
2020-11-12 14:13:47 +0100 <angerman> here's a fully native, GHC-9.1 with an arm64 NCG: https://dl.dropbox.com/s/jskw2pjpkhquj4g/ghc-9.1.0.20201110-aarch64-apple-darwin.tar.xz
2020-11-12 14:14:12 +0100WeChanTonio(~WeChanTon@186-130-20-31.ftth.glasoperator.nl)
2020-11-12 14:14:16 +0100 <jophish> I wonder how the code signing thing is going to impact nixos
2020-11-12 14:14:21 +0100 <angerman> We'll likely need a bit of time to get this (a) merged into master, (b) backported into 9.0 and maybe earlier.
2020-11-12 14:14:51 +0100 <angerman> jophish: it's ok. thefloweringash and I did test, and manage to produce identical binaries. However "nixos" and darwin don't mix well :p
2020-11-12 14:15:00 +0100hackageapecs-stm 0.1.4 - STM stores for apecs https://hackage.haskell.org/package/apecs-stm-0.1.4 (jonascarpay)
2020-11-12 14:15:03 +0100 <angerman> darwin + nixpkgs, will need some more work, but we'll get there.
2020-11-12 14:15:24 +0100 <jophish> I guess you had to share a key?
2020-11-12 14:15:38 +0100 <angerman> no. adhoc signatures don't need keeys.
2020-11-12 14:15:53 +0100 <jophish> oh, so they always use the same key
2020-11-12 14:16:15 +0100 <angerman> it's just some integrity hash.
2020-11-12 14:16:20 +0100 <jophish> right
2020-11-12 14:16:38 +0100wei2912(~wei2912@unaffiliated/wei2912)
2020-11-12 14:16:40 +0100 <angerman> I think thefloweringhash did provide some more details in the nixpkgs comments on the issue.
2020-11-12 14:17:01 +0100Yumasi(~guillaume@2a01cb09b06b29ea5faf5572fb93fcc2.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2020-11-12 14:17:04 +0100 <angerman> if you want to use GHC or nix right away on an arm64 mac, maybe hold off for at least a month.
2020-11-12 14:17:13 +0100 <angerman> it's possible, but it's going to be painful.
2020-11-12 14:17:24 +0100 <jophish> heh, I'm probably not getting a mac again any time soon
2020-11-12 14:17:35 +0100 <angerman> your loss :p
2020-11-12 14:17:48 +0100 <Uniaika> that being said there is Rosetta right?
2020-11-12 14:17:51 +0100 <angerman> apple sg doesn't seem to want to sell M1 mac minis :-/
2020-11-12 14:17:56 +0100 <jophish> used one for quite a while, but coming back to Linux was always such a relief ;)
2020-11-12 14:18:06 +0100 <jophish> also the keyboard suck :)
2020-11-12 14:18:15 +0100 <angerman> did I say mac mini?
2020-11-12 14:18:55 +0100 <jophish> ah, keyboard is probably similar then
2020-11-12 14:20:29 +0100 <angerman> macOS to me is a glorified desktop environment to run terminals that are connected to linux machines 🙊
2020-11-12 14:20:33 +0100 <xerox_> angerman: grand
2020-11-12 14:21:25 +0100 <jophish> s/1000$ facebook machine/1000$ ssh machine/
2020-11-12 14:21:32 +0100dftxbs3e(~dftxbs3e@unaffiliated/dftxbs3e) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-11-12 14:21:51 +0100dftxbs3e(~dftxbs3e@unaffiliated/dftxbs3e)
2020-11-12 14:21:59 +0100 <xerox_> angerman: how long did it take to build?
2020-11-12 14:22:17 +0100 <angerman> xerox_: sorry can't comment on that. Once I get my hands on a proper m1 mac mini, I can.
2020-11-12 14:22:28 +0100encod3(~encod3@45-154-157-94.ftth.glasoperator.nl)
2020-11-12 14:22:31 +0100 <jophish> NDA?
2020-11-12 14:22:46 +0100 <angerman> DTKs come with limits.
2020-11-12 14:22:48 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2020-11-12 14:23:11 +0100 <xerox_> ah ok
2020-11-12 14:23:17 +0100 <jophish> angerman: can you build me a ghc distribution starting now, upload it the second you are done
2020-11-12 14:23:38 +0100DirefulSalt(DirefulSal@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/direfulsalt)
2020-11-12 14:23:58 +0100 <angerman> lol.
2020-11-12 14:24:17 +0100 <angerman> I'll just say this much: you can develop on ghc on apple arm machines :-)
2020-11-12 14:24:34 +0100 <angerman> without wanting to jump out of the window.
2020-11-12 14:24:40 +0100 <xerox_> I'm just hoping to develop *with* ghc, so that's good
2020-11-12 14:25:03 +0100 <angerman> well you've seen the early benchmarks I guess?
2020-11-12 14:25:11 +0100 <xerox_> nope!
2020-11-12 14:25:21 +0100 <angerman> most of your time developing in haskell is spent looking at the screen, not actually compiling software.
2020-11-12 14:25:25 +0100 <angerman> xerox_: macrumors.com
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2020-11-12 14:25:37 +0100 <xerox_> oh I thought you meant ghc specific benchmarks
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2020-11-12 14:28:45 +0100geekosaur(82659a09@host154-009.vpn.uakron.edu)
2020-11-12 14:29:46 +0100 <dminuoso> angerman: Oh dunno, that kind of depends on what project you're working on.
2020-11-12 14:30:21 +0100 <dminuoso> Depending on what you do with GHC, the feedback loop can be awfully slow there
2020-11-12 14:30:26 +0100 <dminuoso> (Working on GHC)
2020-11-12 14:30:30 +0100toorevitimirp(~tooreviti@117.182.180.38) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-11-12 14:30:55 +0100 <angerman> dminuoso: yea, but xerox_ explicitly said he's developing *with* ghc :D
2020-11-12 14:31:20 +0100Franciman(~francesco@host-82-56-223-169.retail.telecomitalia.it)
2020-11-12 14:31:25 +0100 <angerman> xerox_: well they give you a machine to compare to. Is GHC fast enough on that machine? If the answer is yes, then it's likely fast enough on an apple silicon machine.
2020-11-12 14:31:51 +0100 <dminuoso> angerman: With the llvm backend, the new apple silicon should work out of the box, no?
2020-11-12 14:31:54 +0100nek0(~nek0@mail.nek0.eu) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2020-11-12 14:32:02 +0100 <dminuoso> Or are you hinting at apple silicon support in the native backend?
2020-11-12 14:32:03 +0100 <angerman> almost.
2020-11-12 14:32:27 +0100 <angerman> there are some minor changes we need in the llvm backend primarily around configure logic.
2020-11-12 14:32:33 +0100toorevitimirp(~tooreviti@117.182.180.38)
2020-11-12 14:32:37 +0100 <angerman> trhe llvm pipeline is just very slow.
2020-11-12 14:32:55 +0100 <angerman> substantially so, that a NCG makes sense.
2020-11-12 14:34:21 +0100nek0(~nek0@mail.nek0.eu)
2020-11-12 14:34:56 +0100 <xerox_> angerman: (:
2020-11-12 14:35:01 +0100hackagemagicbane 0.5.1 - A web framework that integrates Servant, RIO, EKG, fast-logger, wai-cli… https://hackage.haskell.org/package/magicbane-0.5.1 (myfreeweb)
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2020-11-12 14:44:00 +0100hackagephonetic-languages-examples 0.4.1.0 - A generalization of the uniqueness-periods-vector-examples functionality. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-examples-0.4.1.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
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2020-11-12 16:16:47 +0100 <raichoo> Bumping this again here: We are sill looking for contributors for "Advent of Haskell" 2020. www.adventofhaskell.com Would be really cool to get a couple more people on board for this project. I know it's a close call ^^
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2020-11-12 16:37:00 +0100hackagemoss 0.2.0.0 - Haskell client for Moss https://hackage.haskell.org/package/moss-0.2.0.0 (mbg)
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2020-11-12 16:43:15 +0100bscarlet(~benjamin@forest.greynode.net) ()
2020-11-12 16:44:37 +0100 <Franciman> Hi raichoo, unfortunately I think that haskell is the past, the future is going outside and enjoying the real world. That's why there should be an anti technocratic revolution spreading across the world
2020-11-12 16:44:39 +0100 <Franciman> but thanks
2020-11-12 16:44:43 +0100Amras(~Amras@unaffiliated/amras0000) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-11-12 16:44:50 +0100 <maerwald> :D
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2020-11-12 16:55:18 +0100ClaudiusMaximus(~claude@198.123.199.146.dyn.plus.net)
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2020-11-12 16:55:20 +0100ClaudiusMaximus(~claude@unaffiliated/claudiusmaximus)
2020-11-12 16:55:40 +0100 <zincy_> Franciman: It was but then 2020 happened
2020-11-12 16:56:05 +0100 <Franciman> damn, so haskell is the future again?
2020-11-12 16:56:07 +0100s00pcan(~chris@107.181.165.217) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-11-12 16:57:08 +0100 <zincy_> Anything that involves being a hermit is the future
2020-11-12 16:57:19 +0100 <frdg> I am having trouble with `stack exec` not being able to find a module that it should be able to find, yet I am able to compile and run my program. I cannot use GHCID because of this issue. Here is a full outline of the problem that I posted 4 days ago on SO:
2020-11-12 16:57:20 +0100 <frdg> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/64738525/stack-can-not-find-a-local-module-that-it-should-be-a…
2020-11-12 16:57:39 +0100 <Franciman> :D
2020-11-12 16:57:45 +0100s00pcan(~chris@075-133-056-178.res.spectrum.com)
2020-11-12 16:57:51 +0100 <Franciman> ah, maerwald I wanted to ask you a few things about ghcup when you have some time to lose
2020-11-12 16:58:35 +0100 <raichoo> Anything that gives people a bit of fun over the holidays while being isolated.
2020-11-12 16:58:40 +0100 <maerwald> Franciman: what is it?
2020-11-12 16:59:00 +0100 <maerwald> raichoo: so what changed compared to 2019? :p
2020-11-12 16:59:37 +0100 <Franciman> nothing really important, but have you made any further step towards the idea of implementing part of vabal?
2020-11-12 16:59:58 +0100 <maerwald> no practical achievements so far
2020-11-12 17:00:05 +0100bonvoyage[m](bonvoyageu@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qprbpxmnqsbkebca) (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2020-11-12 17:00:10 +0100 <Franciman> because I wanted to ask you how you determine for each ghc what is the base it supports
2020-11-12 17:00:23 +0100 <Franciman> do you do it by hand, or you have some fancy script I could use?
2020-11-12 17:00:55 +0100 <maerwald> that's by hand and recorded: https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/blob/master/ghcup-0.0.3.yaml#L97
2020-11-12 17:01:05 +0100 <Franciman> arg
2020-11-12 17:01:13 +0100 <merijn> frdg: oh, I think I know :)
2020-11-12 17:01:27 +0100 <maerwald> Franciman: it's static information anyway
2020-11-12 17:01:28 +0100 <merijn> frdg: Can you try replacing ~ with /home/whatever in your filepath?
2020-11-12 17:01:36 +0100 <maerwald> it doesn't change
2020-11-12 17:01:39 +0100 <frdg> sure
2020-11-12 17:01:48 +0100 <Franciman> yes, but ok I understand vabal is not used by anybody, but I keep forgetting to update them
2020-11-12 17:02:12 +0100 <merijn> Franciman: You mean you forget to relax your upperbound on base?
2020-11-12 17:02:30 +0100 <Franciman> yes
2020-11-12 17:02:38 +0100 <Franciman> and update vabal's metadata
2020-11-12 17:02:45 +0100 <merijn> Franciman: Let me introduce you to your saviour with regards to upperbounds :p
2020-11-12 17:02:49 +0100 <maerwald> lol
2020-11-12 17:02:56 +0100 <maerwald> < 10000
2020-11-12 17:03:04 +0100 <merijn> Franciman: https://packdeps.haskellers.com/feed?needle=paramtree
2020-11-12 17:03:04 +0100 <Franciman> lol
2020-11-12 17:03:30 +0100 <merijn> Franciman: (replace package name as needed) and get an RSS feed of out of date upperbounds (including base)
2020-11-12 17:03:45 +0100 <Franciman> thanks
2020-11-12 17:03:48 +0100 <Franciman> that's cool
2020-11-12 17:03:57 +0100 <Franciman> raichoo, no sorry, you're right
2020-11-12 17:04:15 +0100 <merijn> Franciman: As soon as one of you (direct) dependencies releases a version outside your current upperbound it appears in the RSS feed :)
2020-11-12 17:04:16 +0100 <Franciman> but the doctor said I can't stay sat down for more than 40 minutes in a row
2020-11-12 17:04:17 +0100 <frdg> merijn: same error
2020-11-12 17:04:23 +0100 <Franciman> that's what I meant, in a less pompous way
2020-11-12 17:04:27 +0100 <merijn> frdg: ah, then I dunno
2020-11-12 17:04:28 +0100 <maerwald> Franciman: you also have RSI?
2020-11-12 17:04:43 +0100 <frdg> ill add that to my SO post though.
2020-11-12 17:05:05 +0100 <Franciman> yes, that one too
2020-11-12 17:05:17 +0100 <maerwald> the beauty of programming
2020-11-12 17:05:29 +0100 <Franciman> but also tendonitis in various parts of the arms
2020-11-12 17:05:34 +0100 <Franciman> and posture problems
2020-11-12 17:05:43 +0100 <monochrom> I have a cunning plan. Build a large keyboard on the floor. You walk to step on the keys to type.
2020-11-12 17:05:44 +0100 <Franciman> and circulatory issues to hands
2020-11-12 17:06:39 +0100 <maerwald> yeah, I bought 2 ergonomic keyboards, parts to replace the firmware/boards, all sorts of trackballs and wrist crap etc
2020-11-12 17:06:42 +0100 <monochrom> Although, this may be merely transfering hand RSI to leg-foot RSI.
2020-11-12 17:07:02 +0100 <maerwald> yeah, since I use a 3-foot pedal, my feet hurt
2020-11-12 17:07:15 +0100 <Franciman> maerwald, :<
2020-11-12 17:07:18 +0100 <maerwald> I think that's an improvement though
2020-11-12 17:07:20 +0100 <maerwald> :D
2020-11-12 17:07:29 +0100 <maerwald> feet you can just cut off and be done
2020-11-12 17:07:36 +0100 <Franciman> lol
2020-11-12 17:10:59 +0100 <maerwald> Franciman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdD7CgN5FGg
2020-11-12 17:11:15 +0100 <maerwald> it seems he recovered and didn't need surgery
2020-11-12 17:11:31 +0100 <maerwald> (I can't but stop wondering if he's an emacs user)
2020-11-12 17:12:40 +0100 <maerwald> I think ppl with heavy alt/ctrl key bindings are at higher risk
2020-11-12 17:13:17 +0100 <Franciman> thanks
2020-11-12 17:13:24 +0100 <Franciman> I do think that too
2020-11-12 17:13:26 +0100nbloomf(~nbloomf@76.217.43.73)
2020-11-12 17:13:42 +0100 <maerwald> my vim keybindings are very ctrl heavy :/
2020-11-12 17:13:42 +0100 <Franciman> at least you need to take some care, and presso ctrl/alt with the opposite hand
2020-11-12 17:13:48 +0100 <Franciman> press*
2020-11-12 17:14:19 +0100 <maerwald> yes, my problems got worse when I started using workman keyboard layout (similar to colemak)
2020-11-12 17:14:52 +0100 <maerwald> which focuses on finger rolling (same hand movements). dvorak is supposed to maximize alternating hands, so that might help you too
2020-11-12 17:16:29 +0100 <frdg> merijn: all of a sudden it just worked and I don't know why.
2020-11-12 17:16:57 +0100 <raichoo> Franciman: Sorry to hear that, I hope it'll get better?
2020-11-12 17:17:25 +0100 <frdg> merijn: maybe you were right. But I tried what you said at least 4 times and it didn't work.
2020-11-12 17:17:38 +0100 <Franciman> hm i see maerwald sorry to hear that
2020-11-12 17:17:39 +0100 <Franciman> it sux
2020-11-12 17:17:43 +0100 <Franciman> raichoo, thanks
2020-11-12 17:17:54 +0100 <Franciman> sorry i was a bit rought
2020-11-12 17:17:57 +0100 <Franciman> rough*
2020-11-12 17:18:11 +0100 <raichoo> Happens, don't worry.
2020-11-12 17:18:45 +0100 <maerwald> Franciman: but I do recommend Kinesis advantage 2 keyboard (at least if you have finger strain)
2020-11-12 17:19:02 +0100 <maerwald> the concave design makes a huge difference
2020-11-12 17:19:22 +0100 <maerwald> I wouldn't be able to type without it (and cbd)
2020-11-12 17:21:32 +0100 <Franciman> cool thanks, I keep it noted
2020-11-12 17:21:33 +0100 <frdg> merijn: I am perplexed but it had to have been the file path you suggested because I have been going at this for days and had not tried that. If you want the 50 bounty you can answer the question otherwise ill put the answer up in an hour or so.
2020-11-12 17:21:46 +0100 <Franciman> now sorry my time for computer is left :P
2020-11-12 17:21:48 +0100 <Franciman> thanks maerwald
2020-11-12 17:21:51 +0100 <Franciman> ttyl
2020-11-12 17:23:33 +0100 <merijn> frdg: Basically, bash doesn't expand ~ within '', and when stack exec invoke ghci that path is still not expanded. So it was just a wild guess that ghci does not perform ~ expansion (most programs don't, the shell usually handles that) :)
2020-11-12 17:23:42 +0100pieguy128(~pieguy128@bras-base-mtrlpq5031w-grc-39-70-27-244-102.dsl.bell.ca)
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2020-11-12 17:25:37 +0100 <frdg> I see. It all happened so fast but I think I might have opened a new eshell instance in emacs and tried again and that is why it didn't work at first. Thanks though.
2020-11-12 17:25:56 +0100Chi1thangoo(~Chi1thang@87.112.60.168)
2020-11-12 17:26:00 +0100hackagetracing 0.0.5.2 - Distributed tracing https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tracing-0.0.5.2 (mtth)
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2020-11-12 17:33:42 +0100 <frdg> I can't recreate this success in a regular terminal though. I am getting the same error as before. In a new instance of eshell it is also failing. wtf I really do not know what I did.
2020-11-12 17:34:48 +0100 <frdg> if I restart ghcid in the shell that is working then it continues to work.
2020-11-12 17:34:49 +0100gareth__(~gareth__@104.236.161.134) (Quit: ...uh oh)
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2020-11-12 17:37:14 +0100 <frdg> I can also get it to work with ~ in this shell
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2020-11-12 17:48:42 +0100 <frdg> I have solved the problem. If I run `ghcid -c 'stack exec ...` from within the directory that Main.hs is in it is able to find the module. If I start it from anywhere else it says it cannot find the module. The problem was not with ~ I don't think.
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2020-11-12 18:11:20 +0100 <glguy> maerwald: I've asked before but if you answered I missed it. Is there anything I can do to help ghcup 0.1.12 to get out of rc?
2020-11-12 18:11:34 +0100geekosaur(82659a09@host154-009.vpn.uakron.edu)
2020-11-12 18:11:47 +0100 <maerwald> glguy: it just has TUI improvements, I wanted to tackle a few other issues, but haven't gotten around it
2020-11-12 18:12:34 +0100 <maerwald> https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/issues/84
2020-11-12 18:13:22 +0100 <maerwald> so you can say this bindist works for ubuntu < 18.02
2020-11-12 18:13:25 +0100 <maerwald> or something
2020-11-12 18:14:30 +0100 <glguy> maerwald: But currently all you can say is that it works for Linux_Ubuntu in general?
2020-11-12 18:14:42 +0100jlamothe(~jlamothe@198.251.55.207)
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2020-11-12 18:15:41 +0100 <glguy> Oh, no. I see you already say different things about '16.04', '18.04' and unkonwn_versioning:
2020-11-12 18:15:53 +0100 <maerwald> glguy: yeah, we only have EQ
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2020-11-12 18:45:31 +0100 <maralorn> When cabal tries to find a valid build plan, does it try all possible flag constellation for all dependencies? Or does it only try the default flags of every dependency?
2020-11-12 18:45:39 +0100hekkaidekapus(~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus)
2020-11-12 18:47:10 +0100 <int-e> maralorn: it tries toggling the automatic flags, but not the manual ones
2020-11-12 18:48:31 +0100hackagephonetic-languages-examples 0.4.2.0 - A generalization of the uniqueness-periods-vector-examples functionality. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-examples-0.4.2.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
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2020-11-12 19:31:30 +0100hackageuniqueness-periods-vector-examples 0.14.5.0 - Usage examples for the uniqueness-periods-vector series of packages https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-examples-0.14.5.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
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2020-11-12 20:03:18 +0100 <kritzefitz> In parsec (string "a" >> mzero) `mplus` string "ab" behaves differently than mzero `mplus` string "ab". Does that violate the laws for mzero or am I misinterpreting the laws for mzero?
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2020-11-12 20:06:17 +0100 <glguy> kritzefitz: I think you're misunderstanding the laws
2020-11-12 20:06:30 +0100 <glguy> because MonadPlus doesn't have very many
2020-11-12 20:06:52 +0100cr3(~cr3@192-222-143-195.qc.cable.ebox.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-11-12 20:06:52 +0100 <kritzefitz> I'm specifically talking about v >> mzero = mzero.
2020-11-12 20:06:55 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-11-12 20:06:56 +0100coot(~coot@37.30.49.253.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
2020-11-12 20:07:33 +0100Amras(~Amras@unaffiliated/amras0000)
2020-11-12 20:07:52 +0100 <glguy> I think parsec doesn't satisfy the laws as written in Haddock, but also that people often don't agree on how MonadPlus should actually behave
2020-11-12 20:07:57 +0100jonatanb(~jonatanb@83.24.9.26.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-11-12 20:08:33 +0100juuandyy(~juuandyy@90.166.144.65)
2020-11-12 20:08:46 +0100 <glguy> IO also fails the laws as implemented there
2020-11-12 20:08:58 +0100 <kritzefitz> Good point
2020-11-12 20:09:08 +0100 <electricityZZZZ> is anyone here also in #rust? can i get a #rust invite?
2020-11-12 20:09:22 +0100jonatanb(~jonatanb@83.24.9.26.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl)
2020-11-12 20:09:23 +0100 <glguy> electricityZZZZ: You're looking for ##rust
2020-11-12 20:09:43 +0100Rudd0(~Rudd0@185.189.115.103) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-11-12 20:09:53 +0100 <electricityZZZZ> oh wow ok freenode should change their error message
2020-11-12 20:10:14 +0100 <glguy> #rust automatically forwards to ##rust except you weren't logged in so you weren't allowed in
2020-11-12 20:10:27 +0100 <glguy> (because ##rust requires login for whatever reason)
2020-11-12 20:11:26 +0100 <electricityZZZZ> ok. yeah #rust on irc.mozilla had problems with haxxorz or something so they are a little more paranoid
2020-11-12 20:12:06 +0100stackdimes(~stackdime@70.39.102.181)
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2020-11-12 20:22:56 +0100 <gtk> when i instance NFData and define the rnf function, what happens if I dont really evalute the value till normal form?
2020-11-12 20:23:06 +0100Tario(~Tario@201.192.165.173)
2020-11-12 20:23:18 +0100 <gtk> but WHNF instead?
2020-11-12 20:23:54 +0100 <jle`> then it will only evaluate to WHNF
2020-11-12 20:24:07 +0100 <monochrom> breaks a lot of people's hearts
2020-11-12 20:24:21 +0100 <monochrom> baby jesus cries
2020-11-12 20:24:33 +0100 <gtk> Then it would be against the will of NFData
2020-11-12 20:24:43 +0100 <gtk> isn't that a big sin?
2020-11-12 20:24:53 +0100 <monochrom> cardinal sin
2020-11-12 20:25:25 +0100 <Uniaika> most certainly
2020-11-12 20:26:05 +0100jneira(5127ac76@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.81.39.172.118)
2020-11-12 20:26:35 +0100 <monochrom> https://www.google.ca/search?q=cardinal+zin+zinfandel&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjpuJSX3…
2020-11-12 20:27:28 +0100evanpro(~evanpro@195.206.169.184)
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2020-11-12 20:28:12 +0100thc202(~thc202@unaffiliated/thc202) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-11-12 20:28:15 +0100 <monochrom> Actually I guess just https://www.google.com/search?q=cardinal+zin
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2020-11-12 20:30:01 +0100 <monochrom> Ah, add &tbm=isch for the images.
2020-11-12 20:30:29 +0100geekosaur(82659a09@host154-009.vpn.uakron.edu)
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2020-11-12 20:37:29 +0100 <koz_> :t any
2020-11-12 20:37:31 +0100 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> Bool) -> t a -> Bool
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2020-11-12 21:01:01 +0100hackagepolysemy-vinyl 0.1.2.0 - Functions for mapping vinyl records in polysemy. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/polysemy-vinyl-0.1.2.0 (locallycompact)
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2020-11-12 21:03:25 +0100kimumba(5fa8781e@95.168.120.30) ()
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2020-11-12 21:41:10 +0100jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@104.140.53.251)
2020-11-12 21:43:52 +0100 <dminuoso> Mmm, I have a large code base that I need a quick feedback loop. How can I disable code generation in GHC to speed it up?
2020-11-12 21:45:13 +0100 <lortabac> -fno-code
2020-11-12 21:45:48 +0100 <dminuoso> Mmm, if I add that to cabal it propagates to dependencies it seems
2020-11-12 21:45:54 +0100 <dminuoso> and `primitive` fails to build
2020-11-12 21:47:00 +0100 <dminuoso> lortabac: Mmm, but I can get around that. Cheers, that's so much faster.
2020-11-12 21:47:05 +0100 <dminuoso> Feels like 5-10 times. :)
2020-11-12 21:48:51 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-73-24-27-54.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-11-12 21:49:07 +0100reallymemorable(~quassel@2601:180:8300:8fd0:c5df:6e57:bcff:c1bb)
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2020-11-12 21:51:09 +0100jakov(~jakov@95.168.121.30)
2020-11-12 21:51:30 +0100kimumba(5fa8781e@95.168.120.30) ()
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2020-11-12 21:52:31 +0100hackageminizinc-process 0.1.4.0 - A set of helpers to call minizinc models. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/minizinc-process-0.1.4.0 (LucasDiCioccio)
2020-11-12 21:52:48 +0100 <sshine> dminuoso, so you just run type checker?
2020-11-12 21:52:56 +0100 <dminuoso> sshine: Yeah
2020-11-12 21:53:00 +0100 <sshine> why didn't I think of that.
2020-11-12 21:53:27 +0100 <dminuoso> This is 150 modules, and Im modifying a common dependency of them all...
2020-11-12 21:53:31 +0100 <sshine> most of the times I run GHC I just want to know if I made type errors.
2020-11-12 21:53:47 +0100 <geekosaur45> tbh I thought the typechecker was the slowest part of ghc these days
2020-11-12 21:53:47 +0100 <dminuoso> I think ghcid/hie do something similar
2020-11-12 21:53:48 +0100 <sshine> ah :) so you're really feeling it.
2020-11-12 21:53:58 +0100 <sshine> yes, they must.
2020-11-12 21:54:47 +0100 <koz_> Is Data.Text.span (effectively) a combination of Data.Text.takeWhile and Data.Text.dropWhile?
2020-11-12 21:55:10 +0100jmcarthur(~jmcarthur@104.140.53.251) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-11-12 21:55:48 +0100 <dminuoso> geekosaur45: From experience, not really. Degenerate projects seem to take a lot of time in the simplifier.
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2020-11-12 21:56:09 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-11-12 21:56:16 +0100 <dminuoso> At least most of them. It's of course not hard to write programs that take a long time to type check
2020-11-12 21:56:39 +0100 <dminuoso> As an example I frequently notice, megaparsec!
2020-11-12 21:57:01 +0100neiluj(~jco@238.106.204.77.rev.sfr.net) (Changing host)
2020-11-12 21:57:01 +0100neiluj(~jco@unaffiliated/neiluj)
2020-11-12 21:57:04 +0100 <sshine> koz_, it appears that the implementation is more low-level: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/text-1.2.4.0/docs/src/Data.Text.Internal.Private.html#span_ -- it resembles those of takeWhile/dropWhile -- are you asking if takeWhile/dropWhile would fuse to something equally efficient?
2020-11-12 21:57:22 +0100 <dminuoso> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/17370
2020-11-12 21:57:49 +0100 <koz_> sshine: I'm asking if 'span pred foo == bimap (takeWhile pred) (dropWhile pred) (foo, foo)'
2020-11-12 21:58:00 +0100 <davean> geekosaur45: the optimizer is FAR slower than the type checker IME
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2020-11-12 21:58:53 +0100 <sshine> koz_, according to the haddock, it appears so.
2020-11-12 21:59:15 +0100 <koz_> sshine: Maybe I'm just bad at reading comprehension then, lol.
2020-11-12 21:59:16 +0100 <davean> geekosaur45: compare -O0 to -O2, and if you do -fno-code its faster yet again
2020-11-12 21:59:50 +0100 <sshine> koz_, 'takeWhile p' would be "the longest prefix (possibly empty)", and 'dropWhile p' would be "the remainder of the list".
2020-11-12 22:00:02 +0100Suntop1(~Suntop@139.28.218.148) ()
2020-11-12 22:00:02 +0100 <dminuoso> I guess its in the nature of the simplifier, because depending on code, it can blow up the Core size between passes *a lot*
2020-11-12 22:00:07 +0100 <dminuoso> And there's a lot of passes
2020-11-12 22:00:09 +0100 <koz_> Yeah, the key word there is 'prefix'.
2020-11-12 22:00:16 +0100 <dminuoso> (I think it defaults to 30 passes max?)
2020-11-12 22:00:19 +0100 <koz_> So yeah, just me being bad at reading comprehension.
2020-11-12 22:00:24 +0100 <monochrom> also "longest"
2020-11-12 22:00:34 +0100 <sshine> koz_, for Data.List,span, it even says "span p xs is equivalent to (takeWhile p xs, dropWhile p xs)" :)
2020-11-12 22:00:45 +0100 <koz_> sshine: Yeah, but Data.Text _doesn't_.
2020-11-12 22:00:52 +0100 <koz_> Which is probably part of what threw me.
2020-11-12 22:00:55 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-11-12 22:01:00 +0100 <sshine> koz_, ah. yeah.
2020-11-12 22:01:15 +0100 <dminuoso> I'm starting to burn already, so I thought "it could be cool to start writing this with continuations.. and maybe ContT would be nice too."
2020-11-12 22:01:16 +0100 <sshine> koz_, I think I read that on the inside of my skull. one should be careful of that.
2020-11-12 22:01:24 +0100 <dminuoso> Not even an hour and I cant read my own code anymore. :(
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2020-11-12 22:32:27 +0100 <shapr> Anyone building a hoogle server as a separate step from haddocks produced by CI?
2020-11-12 22:33:38 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-11-12 22:34:19 +0100 <Uniaika> nope, not here
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2020-11-12 23:33:00 +0100hackageminizinc-process 0.1.4.1 - A set of helpers to call minizinc models. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/minizinc-process-0.1.4.1 (LucasDiCioccio)
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2020-11-12 23:42:53 +0100 <fendor> is there some global setting I can use to limit the memory usage of ghci?
2020-11-12 23:43:15 +0100 <fendor> so that every invocation of ghci has a memory limit
2020-11-12 23:45:17 +0100fryguybob(~fryguybob@cpe-74-65-31-113.rochester.res.rr.com)
2020-11-12 23:46:00 +0100 <Axman6> Yes, but it's quite complex, you need to write programs that use less memory :P
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2020-11-12 23:59:37 +0100 <fendor> Axman6, tell that to the students that write endless recursive functions :P