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2024-12-04 05:31:07 +0100L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) ()
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2024-12-04 07:57:36 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@2a03:7846:b6eb:101:93ac:a90a:da67:f207) ash3en
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2024-12-04 12:00:38 +0100L29Ah(~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) L29Ah
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2024-12-04 13:58:52 +0100portnov(~portnov@v-20678-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru) ()
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2024-12-04 19:22:33 +0100OftenFaded(~OftenFade@user/tisktisk) OftenFaded
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2024-12-04 19:24:06 +0100 <OftenFaded> what does 'formally proven core' mean in the welcome message context?
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2024-12-04 19:26:27 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> Welcome message ?
2024-12-04 19:26:42 +0100alp(~alp@2001:861:8ca0:4940:1ca2:997d:5ece:75da)
2024-12-04 19:27:33 +0100beastwick(~brian@user/beastwick) (WeeChat 4.4.2)
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2024-12-04 19:28:20 +0100 <OftenFaded> sorry, I don't know the exact terminology but the short info blurb that has links to cheetsheets and the logs
2024-12-04 19:28:23 +0100alp(~alp@2001:861:8ca0:4940:176d:44a4:3e5:e4a9)
2024-12-04 19:28:33 +0100 <OftenFaded> 'xmonad: the tiling window manager with a formally proven core |'
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2024-12-04 19:34:28 +0100 <geekosaur> the StackSet, which is the core of xmonad that everything else is based on, was translated to the Idris proof assistant (which is very Haskell-like) and formally verified
2024-12-04 19:34:46 +0100 <geekosaur> and separately translated to Coq and verified there
2024-12-04 19:35:09 +0100alp_(~alp@2001:861:8ca0:4940:b9a2:1759:6304:ffae)
2024-12-04 19:35:29 +0100 <geekosaur> although that one is less reliable because Coq isn't very Haskell-like so it may depend on the translation a bit
2024-12-04 19:36:53 +0100alp__(~alp@2001:861:8ca0:4940:563c:b90a:93c1:efa)
2024-12-04 19:37:31 +0100 <OftenFaded> so it means like verified to be without bugs or like verified as non-malicious? I'm assuming verification is good in some sense
2024-12-04 19:38:21 +0100alp(~alp@2001:861:8ca0:4940:bffe:bef:d5fd:3228) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-12-04 19:39:21 +0100 <geekosaur> not quite either. non-maliciousness can't be tested that way, and there's a famous Knuth quote about formal verification
2024-12-04 19:39:33 +0100 <geekosaur> "Beware, I have only proven this correct, not tested it"
2024-12-04 19:39:49 +0100 <geekosaur> it is _mathematically_ correct
2024-12-04 19:40:06 +0100alp_(~alp@2001:861:8ca0:4940:b9a2:1759:6304:ffae) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2024-12-04 19:40:39 +0100 <geekosaur> this _usually_ means you can consider it bug-free, but there's always the possibility that what it models isn't what you actually want it to do (and in fact it handles floating windows fairly poorly)
2024-12-04 19:41:42 +0100L29Ahrearranges geekosaur's Tabbed while he's busy with his floating window
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2024-12-04 19:42:23 +0100 <geekosaur> (basically, good mathematics doesn't mean good UX)
2024-12-04 19:42:39 +0100 <OftenFaded> Very cool. But I'm an idiot, I thought mathematically incorrect code will simply not compile or run (or finish being interpretted) at all no matter what language it is
2024-12-04 19:43:56 +0100 <OftenFaded> I don't mean to infinitely bore you with questions if there's some link that will break it down for the unacademic
2024-12-04 19:43:58 +0100 <geekosaur> you can write garbage that will run in any language. the question, as I said before, is whether it does what you intend
2024-12-04 19:44:23 +0100 <OftenFaded> ohhhh intention is the key element I'm missing then
2024-12-04 19:44:54 +0100 <geekosaur> right, it's difficult to describe intent mathematically. or in a computer language, for that matter
2024-12-04 19:45:49 +0100 <geekosaur> strong types are an attempt to do that. they're not quite enough, at least in Haskell's form. dependently-typed languages get closer but are much harder to use because no matter what it's going to be difficult to describe intent to a computer
2024-12-04 19:47:31 +0100 <geekosaur> tests have the same problem: you have to test the right thing, including all the edge cases
2024-12-04 19:52:44 +0100 <OftenFaded> If intent is so difficult, why does haskell concern itself with this mathematical correctness to begin with? Or why is this a non-topic concerning other languages?
2024-12-04 19:53:28 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> OftenFaded: Where ?
2024-12-04 19:53:36 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> OftenFaded: Oooh
2024-12-04 19:53:41 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> Where is that from
2024-12-04 19:54:11 +0100 <OftenFaded> Is it essentially an attempt at making a most valid or verified toolset?
2024-12-04 19:54:42 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> geekosaur: Yea, both are very interesting approaches though. In Idris rather than Idris2 tho ?
2024-12-04 19:55:06 +0100 <geekosaur> Idris2 didn't exist in 2007
2024-12-04 19:55:26 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> geekosaur: Just generate Haskell from Cow 😔
2024-12-04 19:55:29 +0100 <geekosaur> (the STackSet hasn't been changed siince then)
2024-12-04 19:55:32 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> * Coq
2024-12-04 19:55:33 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> Ooh
2024-12-04 19:55:40 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> Yea that's fair
2024-12-04 19:56:06 +0100 <geekosaur> it's so core that any changes would probably force the rest of xmonad+contrib to be rewritten
2024-12-04 19:57:36 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> OftenFaded: ~Haskell's type system, mathematically speaking, is a mess~
2024-12-04 19:57:48 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> geekosaur: Oh huh that's interesting
2024-12-04 20:00:50 +0100 <OftenFaded> what do you mean by mess, and if this is true, isn't a verification of stability or mathematical reliability kind of a moot point?
2024-12-04 20:02:31 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> That's why you rewrite it in another language and generate Haskell from that
2024-12-04 20:02:32 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> https://coq.inria.fr/doc/V8.11.1/refman/addendum/extraction.html
2024-12-04 20:03:09 +0100 <geekosaur> right, and also why the StackSet was translated into Idris and Coq for verification
2024-12-04 20:03:48 +0100 <geekosaur> Haskell's type system is not suited to that kind of verification
2024-12-04 20:05:07 +0100 <geekosaur> also, mathematically speaking, Haskell has neither sum nor product types; it has sums of products
2024-12-04 20:05:47 +0100 <OftenFaded> But if floating windows are problematic even with 'verifiably correct' code due to intent itself being problematic, why don't we try different approaches to solving the 'intent' dilemma? Or is this effectively what other languages are trying to do already?
2024-12-04 20:07:37 +0100 <geekosaur> no, in our case it's just that everything else is so tied to the StackSet that fixing it would require rewriting the rest of xmonad
2024-12-04 20:07:55 +0100 <geekosaur> so we have hacks like TrackFloating
2024-12-04 20:08:18 +0100 <geekosaur> and it's not like they don't work at all; see L29Ah's comment
2024-12-04 20:08:29 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> geekosaur: Meeeh, it depends on how you consider it
2024-12-04 20:08:30 +0100 <geekosaur> tiled windows move around when you work with floats
2024-12-04 20:08:47 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> If you take the traditional Hask then you have both product and coproduct types
2024-12-04 20:09:18 +0100 <haskellbridge> <Tranquil Ity> Categorically speaking ofc
2024-12-04 20:17:43 +0100 <OftenFaded> haskell and it's tools are conceptually so interesting to me, but I always feel overly challenged trying to maintain a practicality with it all--it's tough to not fall back to less intimidating familiar toolsets even if less fun
2024-12-04 20:23:34 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@ip1f10cbd6.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) ash3en
2024-12-04 20:36:40 +0100 <OftenFaded> this is ultimately a laziness, tho isn't it? xmonad and the ilk are technically more practical in the long run, my ignorance horizon is what hinders the correct perspective
2024-12-04 20:37:54 +0100 <geekosaur> it's complex. on the one hand, one could claim laziness; on the other, Haskell forces you to "un-learn" a lot of things other languages teach you
2024-12-04 20:38:09 +0100 <geekosaur> which is a lot of hard work because our brains don't want to do that
2024-12-04 20:39:10 +0100 <geekosaur> that said, the reward is quite high because learning Haskell makes you a better programmer even in other languages
2024-12-04 20:39:23 +0100 <geekosaur> but you need to do a lot of work to get there
2024-12-04 20:41:07 +0100 <OftenFaded> how does one deal with the anxiety or paranoia that its only useful for improving one's perspective rather than the tool itself being in key senses the best tool for certain jobs/tasks?
2024-12-04 20:42:25 +0100 <geekosaur> for me it was immersion: spending some time using it for everything (which for me was hard as I'm very much a right-tool-for-the-job person)
2024-12-04 20:44:14 +0100 <geekosaur> but this isn't specific to Haskell, or even to computer languages: it's how you learn natural languages, for example
2024-12-04 20:45:34 +0100 <OftenFaded> that makes a lot of sense. If it can be resourceful for almost everything, it's tough to worry about it's merit/utility-value
2024-12-04 20:48:59 +0100 <L29Ah> OftenFaded: i'd say haskell is extraordinarily good for writing fast and correct complex parallel+concurrent software
2024-12-04 20:49:29 +0100 <L29Ah> i'm not aware of any other tool that excels at this niche
2024-12-04 20:50:45 +0100 <L29Ah> due to completely green-thread-able I/O, STM, and decent typing
2024-12-04 20:52:02 +0100 <geekosaur> STM's a big feature for such programs. other languages have STM implementations, but their compilers can't catch you misusing them
2024-12-04 20:52:43 +0100 <geekosaur> there are a lot of things that you can't safely do in the middle of a transaction. Haskell's typechecker enforces them; rustc, for one example, can't
2024-12-04 20:53:08 +0100 <geekosaur> (because they can't be rolled back if the transaction aborts)
2024-12-04 20:55:22 +0100 <geekosaur> also purity helps because a lot of things that wouldn't be rollback-able either become so or aren't possible without doing things that the typechecker blocks
2024-12-04 21:05:30 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@ip1f10cbd6.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Quit: ash3en)
2024-12-04 21:10:38 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@ip1f10cbd6.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) ash3en
2024-12-04 21:12:05 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@ip1f10cbd6.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-12-04 22:05:38 +0100OftenFaded(~OftenFade@user/tisktisk) (Quit: Client closed)
2024-12-04 22:10:17 +0100OftenFaded(~OftenFade@user/tisktisk) OftenFaded
2024-12-04 22:18:47 +0100ft(~ft@p508db9c7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ft
2024-12-04 22:22:39 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@ip1f10cbd6.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) ash3en
2024-12-04 22:38:10 +0100ash3en(~Thunderbi@ip1f10cbd6.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Quit: ash3en)
2024-12-04 22:43:17 +0100tv(~tv@user/tv) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)