2022/05/04

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2022-05-04 21:41:12 +0000 <moonsheep> hi there!
2022-05-04 21:41:24 +0000 <geekosaur> hi
2022-05-04 21:41:25 +0000liskin[m](~liskinmat@2001:470:69fc:105::768)
2022-05-04 21:41:26 +0000superusercode(~sudousrco@2001:470:69fc:105::1:ee77)
2022-05-04 21:41:26 +0000Zach[m](~zoglesby@user/zoglesby)
2022-05-04 21:44:03 +0000 <moonsheep> is it a good idea to run xmobar within the same process as xmonad? (something like "forkIO $ xmobar config")
2022-05-04 21:44:11 +0000 <moonsheep> btw what's the proper way to format inline code here?
2022-05-04 21:44:22 +0000 <geekosaur> best bet is to use a pastebin
2022-05-04 21:44:25 +0000 <geekosaur> @where paste
2022-05-04 21:44:25 +0000 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
2022-05-04 21:44:42 +0000 <moonsheep> even if for <30 char snippets?
2022-05-04 21:44:55 +0000 <geekosaur> if you use matrix instead of irc, it will format and pastebin stuff for you
2022-05-04 21:45:10 +0000 <geekosaur> short one-line stuff is fine. irc doesn't really do formatting though
2022-05-04 21:45:20 +0000 <moonsheep> ah, thank you
2022-05-04 21:45:44 +0000 <moonsheep> anyway, should I run xmobar in the same process as xmonad?
2022-05-04 21:45:49 +0000 <moonsheep> or is that as stupid as it sounds?
2022-05-04 21:45:57 +0000 <geekosaur> anyway you can't really run other stuff in xmonad threads, unless it opens its own server connection and even then it'll be limited
2022-05-04 21:46:44 +0000 <geekosaur> Xlib doesn't really support multithreaded. if you make a specific call before opening the server it'll lock its global state around every call which slows everything down.
2022-05-04 21:47:01 +0000 <geekosaur> (we mostly don't but get away with it; this is probably luck)
2022-05-04 21:47:36 +0000 <geekosaur> that is,m there are a few contribs that do X calls in threads when they probably shouldn't because we don't tell Xlib to maintain its global state lock
2022-05-04 21:47:45 +0000 <moonsheep> but from the pov of xmonad, what's the difference of xmobar running in a separate thread than in a separate process? besides, shouldn't that make communication easier?
2022-05-04 21:47:58 +0000 <geekosaur> it makes communication harder, actually
2022-05-04 21:48:09 +0000 <moonsheep> oh, because X maintains process-wide state?
2022-05-04 21:48:38 +0000 <geekosaur> xmonad's main loop is not a full main loop like in e.g. a gtk app, it supports only XNextEvent and will not handle things like timers. and its state is designed to be single-threaded
2022-05-04 21:49:02 +0000 <moonsheep> right
2022-05-04 21:49:15 +0000 <geekosaur> you could hypothetically use TChans to communicate but anything that would block poses problems
2022-05-04 21:49:52 +0000 <moonsheep> I feel like it would be so beautiful to actually configure everything through haskell and have xmobar be but another xmonad module
2022-05-04 21:50:00 +0000 <moonsheep> oh well
2022-05-04 21:50:22 +0000 <geekosaur> someone else here (abastro[m] I think, but they seem not to be here now) was trying to do it the other day and I was explaining all the shortcomings and limitations
2022-05-04 21:50:46 +0000 <geekosaur> we'd really6 need a more complex main loop and better handleEventLoop support for it to work
2022-05-04 21:50:47 +0000 <moonsheep> btw, is this situation any better with wayland?
2022-05-04 21:53:33 +0000 <geekosaur> both xcb and wayland avoid global state, but server connections are inherently single-threaded
2022-05-04 21:53:56 +0000 <geekosaur> (think about it. a message comes in from the server: which thread should read it? you have to read it to find out)
2022-05-04 21:54:27 +0000 <moonsheep> right
2022-05-04 21:55:51 +0000moonsheep(~user@185.154.9.192) (ERC 5.4 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 28.1))
2022-05-04 21:56:29 +0000 <geekosaur> gtk has a subsystem for routing stuff between the main gtk thread and subthreads so that multithreaded programs can use it
2022-05-04 21:57:07 +0000moonsheep(~user@185.154.9.192)
2022-05-04 21:57:14 +0000 <geekosaur> gtk has a subsystem for routing stuff between the main gtk thread and subthreads so that multithreaded programs can use it
2022-05-04 21:57:36 +0000 <geekosaur> xmonad doesn't and in general doesn't need it
2022-05-04 21:58:30 +0000 <geekosaur> we're more about minimal, so putting statusbar functionality in a different app process makes more sense to us (and to the xmobar maintainers)
2022-05-04 21:58:52 +0000 <moonsheep> so then how should my config look? a directory with all the xmobar stuff, which gets compiled into an executable that's run by xmonad on initialization?
2022-05-04 21:59:29 +0000 <geekosaur> there is some stuff for adding status items to the stuff we send to a status bar, but the clock one provided shows the limitations: since it only runs as part of the logHook, you'd only see the time update after a focus change or etc.
2022-05-04 21:59:37 +0000 <geekosaur> yes
2022-05-04 22:01:41 +0000 <moonsheep> I still feel like it would be way nicer if you could communicate with things like the status
2022-05-04 22:01:41 +0000 <moonsheep> bar with primitives like channels though
2022-05-04 22:01:51 +0000 <moonsheep> oops
2022-05-04 22:02:19 +0000moonsheep(~user@185.154.9.192) (Quit: ERC 5.4 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 28.1))
2022-05-04 22:02:38 +0000 <geekosaur> eventually you're putting too much stuff in one process. that's kinda the gnome way of doing things, and it has the shortcoming that your whole session dies if any component does
2022-05-04 22:02:56 +0000 <geekosaur> (especially noticeable under wayland since one of those components is the compositor)
2022-05-04 22:02:58 +0000moonsheep(~user@185.154.9.192)
2022-05-04 22:03:04 +0000 <geekosaur> eventually you're putting too much stuff in one process. that's kinda the gnome way of doing things, and it has the shortcoming that your whole session dies if any component does
2022-05-04 22:03:06 +0000 <geekosaur> (especially noticeable under wayland since one of those components is the compositor)
2022-05-04 22:03:20 +0000 <moonsheep> fair enough
2022-05-04 22:04:52 +0000 <Hash> Hey guys
2022-05-04 22:04:58 +0000 <Hash> I lost my logs and I need you guys
2022-05-04 22:05:29 +0000 <Hash> So, remember last year, I had this problem, where if using plasmashell kde panels with Xmonad, something changed and it won't show menus anymore or context menus
2022-05-04 22:05:52 +0000 <Hash> So I had to edit some source in some KDE plasmaframework package, and make it compatible. I can't for the life of me find that info again
2022-05-04 22:05:58 +0000 <Hash> I know I posted it here Xmonad channel.
2022-05-04 22:06:10 +0000 <Hash> Can someone please, if you have a chacne, and you don't mind, grep your logs for me please?
2022-05-04 22:06:31 +0000 <Hash> I need that patch. I'm sure I posted it somewhere as a link. I have the old compile packages and source, but I can't remember which line I edited.
2022-05-04 22:06:35 +0000 <moonsheep> just joined today, can't really help
2022-05-04 22:07:02 +0000 <Hash> just grep for my nickname Hash or 'stoned'
2022-05-04 22:07:16 +0000 <Hash> And kde and xmonad
2022-05-04 22:08:12 +0000 <Hash> I can't find it in the channel log online either.
2022-05-04 22:14:16 +0000 <Hash> https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad/issues/174
2022-05-04 22:14:20 +0000 <Hash> I think this might be it.
2022-05-04 22:17:11 +0000 <Hash> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=396177
2022-05-04 22:20:43 +0000 <geekosaur> I think that's it. I found the IRC log but it doesn't have details
2022-05-04 22:22:16 +0000 <Hash> Oh thank you so much dude.
2022-05-04 22:22:18 +0000 <Hash> I apprecaite you
2022-05-04 22:22:26 +0000 <Hash> This is it. :)
2022-05-04 22:23:41 +0000 <geekosaur> it also noted the KDE folks didn't want to fix the bug, sadly
2022-05-04 22:25:58 +0000geekosaurwonders (possibly again) if "kdeinit" is enough to get styled KDE stuff without plasma
2022-05-04 22:51:19 +0000moonsheep(~user@185.154.9.192) (Quit: ERC 5.4 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 28.1))
2022-05-04 22:58:25 +0000 <abastro[m]> geekosaur: It does seem like you can spawn a process which shares a TChan
2022-05-04 22:59:23 +0000 <Hash> fixed.
2022-05-04 22:59:25 +0000 <Hash> I don't want to upload a patch, because code changes from version to version. I'll post the exact C++ code needed to be changed. One has to intelligently apply it. Patches online won't work for this kde problem
2022-05-04 23:05:29 +0000werneta(~werneta@137.79.215.173) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2022-05-04 23:12:56 +0000 <geekosaur> abastro[m], I doubt it, it's based on shared memory and distributed STM is quite sa different problem from single-process STM
2022-05-04 23:13:26 +0000 <geekosaur> you may still have a TChan in the child after forkProcess but it won't communicate with the parent
2022-05-04 23:21:24 +0000 <Hash> geekosaur: save this somewhere in your bookmarks or channel bot or something
2022-05-04 23:21:26 +0000 <Hash> https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad/issues/174#issuecomment-1118020397
2022-05-04 23:21:32 +0000 <Hash> :)
2022-05-04 23:21:46 +0000 <Hash> Should be helpful for anyone now using latest KDE and Xmonad together
2022-05-04 23:22:38 +0000 <abastro[m]> geekosaur: oh, I see. So TChan does not work across process
2022-05-04 23:23:29 +0000 <geekosaur> I think distributed software transactional memory is still Ph.D thesis material
2022-05-04 23:26:37 +0000 <abastro[m]> I guess locks are indeed the way to go then
2022-05-04 23:26:53 +0000 <abastro[m]> Sad haskell lacks proper locks
2022-05-04 23:29:10 +0000 <abastro[m]> Actually I more and more realize that system tray and dm tools should fire up window managers like xmonad, not the other way around
2022-05-04 23:35:35 +0000werneta(~werneta@137.79.199.110)
2022-05-04 23:58:58 +0000mvk(~mvk@2607:fea8:5ce3:8500::aa1d) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)