IRCBrowse

2020/12/25

2020-12-25 00:00:28 +0000 <nshepperd> it's like a depth first traversal of your tree except the tree is implicit
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2020-12-25 00:10:28 +0000 <glguy> I combined part 1 and 2 into the same transitive closure map: https://github.com/glguy/advent2020/blob/master/execs/Day07.hs
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2020-12-25 00:14:47 +0000Thoralf(~Thoralf__@69.162.230.96)
2020-12-25 00:15:32 +0000 <Thoralf> Has anyone here experimented with proof verification systems?
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2020-12-25 00:16:35 +0000 <glguy> Thoralf, are you asking about Haskell?
2020-12-25 00:17:23 +0000 <Thoralf> If there are haskell related proof verification systems, yes. If not, I realize this may not be the best channel.
2020-12-25 00:19:26 +0000 <Clint> do you mean like agda?
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2020-12-25 00:32:55 +0000 <Thoralf> Yes... basically I started learning a little Haskell so I could work more easily with algebraic data types and think about proofs about them. I have a background in math (MS) and code for a living (C#) and wanted to due some more mathy coding.
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2020-12-25 00:52:55 +0000 <__monty__> Thoralf Pierce's Software Foundations is great. Chlipala's Certified Programming with Dependent Types too.
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2020-12-25 02:08:50 +0000 <Cale> byorgey: I don't know if you have anything to do with this at this point, but the Homework 1 from your edition of CIS194 seems to be missing
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2020-12-25 03:37:30 +0000hackagearch-hs 0.6.1.0 - Distribute hackage packages to archlinux https://hackage.haskell.org/package/arch-hs-0.6.1.0 (berberman)
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2020-12-25 07:48:12 +0000 <_deepfire> are there any libraries that provide secure websockets (wss) servers, that don't involve webserver stacks, like warp etc.?
2020-12-25 07:52:11 +0000xsperry(~as@unaffiliated/xsperry)
2020-12-25 07:52:32 +0000Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:112:182:27ad:b948) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-25 07:57:20 +0000plutoniix(~q@ppp-27-55-66-145.revip3.asianet.co.th)
2020-12-25 07:59:43 +0000ironmarx(~ironmarx@84.39.117.57)
2020-12-25 08:11:23 +0000takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
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2020-12-25 08:30:28 +0000berberman(~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman)
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2020-12-25 08:33:14 +0000o1lo01ol1o(~o1lo01ol1@bl8-213-81.dsl.telepac.pt)
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2020-12-25 08:56:52 +0000Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-239.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2020-12-25 08:58:34 +0000ADG1089__(~aditya@122.163.239.116)
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2020-12-25 09:03:07 +0000 <siraben> (aoc day 25 spoiler) is there a better way to write the semigroup instance for B? https://github.com/siraben/haoc-2020/blob/master/day25.hs
2020-12-25 09:03:20 +0000 <siraben> if I were to do instance Semigroup (Product B) I get overlapping instances
2020-12-25 09:11:06 +0000ADG1089__(~aditya@122.163.239.116)
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2020-12-25 09:20:51 +0000royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-25 09:24:26 +0000fiddlerwoaroof(~fiddlerwo@unaffiliated/fiddlerwoaroof)
2020-12-25 09:25:42 +0000royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-25 09:29:13 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-25 09:29:16 +0000hnOsmium0001(uid453710@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gekljygtchkukcbi) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2020-12-25 09:34:11 +0000vicfred(vicfred@gateway/vpn/mullvad/vicfred) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-12-25 09:40:28 +0000styledash(~styledash@157.230.173.136) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2020-12-25 09:40:30 +0000 <gentauro> anybody know how (where?) to change colors for the `lsp-ui`? I really can't use it :) https://imgur.com/a/bAs2SQn
2020-12-25 09:40:36 +0000L29Ah(~L29Ah@unaffiliated/l29ah) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-25 09:40:54 +0000styledash(~styledash@157.230.173.136)
2020-12-25 09:46:04 +0000o1lo01ol1o(~o1lo01ol1@bl8-213-81.dsl.telepac.pt)
2020-12-25 09:46:41 +0000 <gentauro> found it :)
2020-12-25 09:46:50 +0000 <gentauro> https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-ui/issues/369#issue-544422242
2020-12-25 09:48:23 +0000 <siraben> gentauro: :D
2020-12-25 09:50:39 +0000banner(~banner@116-255-17-47.ip4.superloop.com)
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2020-12-25 10:34:30 +0000hackagebishbosh 0.0.0.7 - Plays chess. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bishbosh-0.0.0.7 (AlistairWard)
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2020-12-25 10:49:20 +0000strawman2511(~strawman2@171.252.155.14)
2020-12-25 10:50:38 +0000 <xerox_> Merry Christmas #haskell!
2020-12-25 10:50:41 +0000 <strawman2511> I am new to programming and I really want to learn Haskell the effective way. Which book do you think I should take? This one https://haskellbook.com/
2020-12-25 10:52:16 +0000 <__monty__> Merry christmas, xerox_, peeps
2020-12-25 10:52:39 +0000 <__monty__> strawman2511: How much experience do you have with programming and functional languages?
2020-12-25 10:53:17 +0000 <strawman2511> I don't have any experience.
2020-12-25 10:53:37 +0000 <strawman2511> But I like Haskell
2020-12-25 10:53:46 +0000 <__monty__> Then that book's probably the way to go.
2020-12-25 10:53:53 +0000 <merijn> strawman2511: That one is decent. I've also heard that "Thinking Functionall With Haskell" by Richard Bird and "Programming in Haskell" by Graham Hutton are good
2020-12-25 10:54:08 +0000 <__monty__> Yeah, was going to recommend the latter too.
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2020-12-25 10:55:29 +0000 <strawman2511> Are all of that book include a lastest version of Haskell?
2020-12-25 10:55:45 +0000DirefulSalt(DirefulSal@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/direfulsalt)
2020-12-25 10:55:46 +0000avdb(~avdb@gateway/tor-sasl/avdb)
2020-12-25 10:55:58 +0000 <__monty__> Don't think any of them do. GHC 8.10.3 was released the day before yesterday : )
2020-12-25 10:56:11 +0000 <merijn> strawman2511: There isn't really a "latest version" (in any sense that matters) in the sense of python 2 vs 3
2020-12-25 10:56:45 +0000 <__monty__> But I wouldn't worry too much about that. This channel is a great place to ask about stuff that confuses you.
2020-12-25 10:57:03 +0000 <merijn> strawman2511: I mean, the latest Haskell spec is from 2010 and GHC's support for that has changed rather little. Of course the "standard" library has changed a bit, but not enough to worry about
2020-12-25 10:57:05 +0000 <__monty__> And you've already found it : )
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2020-12-25 11:15:39 +0000 <idnar> :t traverse
2020-12-25 11:15:41 +0000 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
2020-12-25 11:16:46 +0000cosimone(~cosimone@2001:b07:ae5:db26:1fb3:ef3f:ece2:c6f8)
2020-12-25 11:16:55 +0000 <idnar> @hoogle (Foldable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f [b]
2020-12-25 11:16:56 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.Vector.Fixed.Generic mapMG :: (Vector v a, Vector w b, Dim w ~ Dim v, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> v a -> m (w b)
2020-12-25 11:18:01 +0000 <idnar> :t (traverse .) . toList
2020-12-25 11:18:03 +0000 <lambdabot> error:
2020-12-25 11:18:03 +0000 <lambdabot> Ambiguous occurrence ‘toList’
2020-12-25 11:18:03 +0000 <lambdabot> It could refer to
2020-12-25 11:18:44 +0000 <idnar> :t (traverse .) . Data.Foldable.toList
2020-12-25 11:18:45 +0000 <lambdabot> error:
2020-12-25 11:18:45 +0000 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘[a]’ with ‘a1 -> a2 -> f b’
2020-12-25 11:18:45 +0000 <lambdabot> Expected type: t a -> a1 -> a2 -> f b
2020-12-25 11:19:20 +0000 <idnar> :t \f -> traverse f . Data.Foldable.toList
2020-12-25 11:19:22 +0000 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Foldable t) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f [b]
2020-12-25 11:19:54 +0000 <idnar> @pl \f -> traverse f . Data.Foldable.toList
2020-12-25 11:19:54 +0000 <lambdabot> (. Data.Foldable.toList) . traverse
2020-12-25 11:20:15 +0000 <idnar> ohh
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2020-12-25 11:47:40 +0000 <__monty__> idnar: Hmm, thought that might be a bird but closest I can get is `cardinal' . flip` and what's the point of birds if you need flip anyway : /
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2020-12-25 12:03:00 +0000 <int-e> flipping birds is traditional, I suppose
2020-12-25 12:05:42 +0000rayyyy(~nanoz@gateway/tor-sasl/nanoz)
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2020-12-25 12:11:37 +0000 <idnar> birds?
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2020-12-25 12:15:42 +0000 <int-e> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Mock_a_Mockingbird
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2020-12-25 12:27:48 +0000 <kuribas> merijn: I find the "traversal over a fold" explanation of clojure transducer not that satisfactory. Since filter comparers to filtering, which isn't a lawful traversal.
2020-12-25 12:27:53 +0000 <kuribas> :t filtering
2020-12-25 12:27:54 +0000 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: filtering
2020-12-25 12:28:02 +0000 <kuribas> :t filtered
2020-12-25 12:28:04 +0000 <lambdabot> (Choice p, Applicative f) => (a -> Bool) -> Optic' p f a a
2020-12-25 12:28:23 +0000m0rphism(~m0rphism@HSI-KBW-085-216-104-059.hsi.kabelbw.de)
2020-12-25 12:30:40 +0000juuandyy(~juuandyy@90.166.144.65)
2020-12-25 12:30:43 +0000 <kuribas> merijn: With the streaming analogy you get: filter p = \a -> if p a then pure a else mempty
2020-12-25 12:32:14 +0000 <kuribas> however the transducer abstraction in clojure is quite *dirty*, since you need to use side-effectful state for some operations (like take), and actual short circuit termination needs to be checked in each transducer separately.
2020-12-25 12:33:37 +0000 <kuribas> Where it's automatic when using "SerialT (ExceptT IO) a" for example.
2020-12-25 12:34:13 +0000 <kuribas> it shows how the whole explanation of "dynamic types are more general since they have less restrictions" falls flat in practice.
2020-12-25 12:36:03 +0000kupi(uid212005@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ydcdmiqkfmdjfpug)
2020-12-25 12:36:07 +0000 <kuribas> In theory you can write more dynamic programs than statically typed programs, but in practice, without means for a language to properly create abstractions, layering and structuring abstractions becomes almost impossible.
2020-12-25 12:38:43 +0000 <kuribas> transducers in clojure seem rather easy to use, but tricky to implement properly.
2020-12-25 12:39:17 +0000 <kuribas> And the explanation is rather confusing.
2020-12-25 12:41:04 +0000berberman_(~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman)
2020-12-25 12:41:11 +0000Ariakenom(~Ariakenom@2001:9b1:efb:fc00:79fd:8fd5:a80e:11e2)
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2020-12-25 12:44:14 +0000 <kuribas> hmm, I guess the side effects would make the type: IO (\a -> Streamly (ExceptT IO) b)
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2020-12-25 12:44:42 +0000 <kuribas> hmm, is there a way to "hide state", without using IO and IORef?
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2020-12-25 12:54:29 +0000axeman-(~axeman_@2a02:8109:86c0:1f98:9d10:f316:4709:bd2c) ()
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2020-12-25 12:55:14 +0000 <tchoutri> hello there
2020-12-25 12:56:09 +0000axeman-(~axeman_@ip5f5af023.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2020-12-25 12:57:24 +0000Guest78853(~botro@178.239.168.171)
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2020-12-25 13:00:42 +0000Varis(~Tadas@unaffiliated/varis)
2020-12-25 13:01:48 +0000 <juri_> hallo!
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2020-12-25 13:02:55 +0000 <kuribas> hey
2020-12-25 13:03:04 +0000coot(~coot@37.30.55.131.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
2020-12-25 13:03:08 +0000 <kuribas> ah, this would hide the state: Transducer = forall s . Transducer s (a -> (\c -> Streamly (ExceptT a (StateT s IO) a)) ((s, a) -> b))
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2020-12-25 13:32:48 +0000 <__monty__> kuribas: Isn't that what ST does?
2020-12-25 13:32:58 +0000 <kuribas> __monty__: yes
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2020-12-25 13:33:26 +0000 <kuribas> __monty__: I suppose using ST would be more efficient
2020-12-25 13:35:29 +0000 <kuribas> __monty__: I just wanted to know if it is possible without IO or ST
2020-12-25 13:36:30 +0000 <__monty__> If the state is transitive and self-contained you can sprinkle whatever amount of unsafe you need in there : )
2020-12-25 13:37:28 +0000 <kuribas> no need, an existential quantification can do it safely.
2020-12-25 13:37:48 +0000 <kuribas> as in the type I gave above
2020-12-25 13:40:00 +0000 <kuribas> then to compose states you can tuple both states.
2020-12-25 13:40:26 +0000 <kuribas> but I think a STRef is more efficient, as you don't need to destructure the tuples.
2020-12-25 13:41:08 +0000 <strawman2511> I am think about only "Programming in Haskell" and "Haskell Programming from First Principles" but which one is more easy to learn with?
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2020-12-25 13:53:08 +0000 <superstar64> what properties does `!` from linear logic have? it forms a comonad right?
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2020-12-25 13:59:26 +0000 <dyeplexer> Can we say that interpreted haskell is dynamically typed by definition, since we are not compiling anything and about everything is done at run time?
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2020-12-25 14:00:28 +0000 <kuribas> dyeplexer: no, because even when interpreted, the types are checked before any code is run.
2020-12-25 14:00:30 +0000 <superstar64> i wouldn't say so
2020-12-25 14:00:59 +0000 <kuribas> unless you turn on defer type errors.
2020-12-25 14:01:07 +0000 <kuribas> Then it's some weird hybrid.
2020-12-25 14:01:09 +0000son0p(~son0p@181.136.122.143)
2020-12-25 14:01:09 +0000 <dyeplexer> but aren't types checked only when a statement is executed in the case of an interpreter?
2020-12-25 14:01:19 +0000 <kuribas> dyeplexer: by default no
2020-12-25 14:01:39 +0000 <hpc> ghci isn't an interpreted full program
2020-12-25 14:01:51 +0000 <hpc> think of runghc instead
2020-12-25 14:02:26 +0000 <kuribas> dyeplexer: it is if you use the flag -fdefer-type-errors Which can be used when compiling also btw.
2020-12-25 14:02:37 +0000hvr(~hvr@haskell/developer/hvr) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-25 14:02:39 +0000 <kuribas> it has nothing to do with being interpreted.
2020-12-25 14:03:06 +0000hvr(~hvr@haskell/developer/hvr)
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2020-12-25 14:07:05 +0000 <dyeplexer> Okay, I think I realised what I was missing. Let's say in a language like python the "initial pass" only checks for syntax errors and type checking is only done when a given function is called. In Haskell, however, the function bodies will be checked for type errors immediately.
2020-12-25 14:07:50 +0000 <dyeplexer> So yes. It is deferred in one case until a given function or block is called, and not in the other.
2020-12-25 14:08:24 +0000 <kuribas> yes
2020-12-25 14:09:07 +0000 <dyeplexer> thanks
2020-12-25 14:10:25 +0000Rudd0(~Rudd0@185.189.115.108) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-25 14:11:08 +0000 <merijn> dyeplexer: Also, ghci does compile
2020-12-25 14:11:13 +0000 <merijn> dyeplexer: It compiles to bytecode and runs that
2020-12-25 14:11:34 +0000 <dyeplexer> I see
2020-12-25 14:11:45 +0000 <siraben> How do I view the GHC core for a function?
2020-12-25 14:11:59 +0000 <merijn> dyeplexer: The real issue is that ghci is kind of a weird animal
2020-12-25 14:12:20 +0000 <merijn> dyeplexer: Where it kinda pretend as if you're writing everything into some pseudo-do-block, but you can also define things
2020-12-25 14:12:35 +0000 <merijn> siraben: You want one of the -d dump flags from the user guide
2020-12-25 14:12:55 +0000 <siraben> merijn: I used -ddump-simpl but get simplified core
2020-12-25 14:12:57 +0000 <siraben> for main
2020-12-25 14:13:06 +0000avdb(~avdb@gateway/tor-sasl/avdb)
2020-12-25 14:13:28 +0000 <merijn> There's roughly 20 gazillion dump flags, so I'm sure *one* of them does what you want ;)
2020-12-25 14:14:24 +0000mud(~mud@unaffiliated/kadoban)
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2020-12-25 14:17:05 +0000 <kuribas> siraben: https://www.stephendiehl.com/posts/ghc_03.html
2020-12-25 14:17:32 +0000 <kuribas> siraben: wait, you want core before simplifying?
2020-12-25 14:17:41 +0000 <kuribas> usually you want it after...
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2020-12-25 14:19:03 +0000 <siraben> `ghci -ddump-simpl -dsuppress-idinfo -dsuppress-coercions -dsuppress-type-applications -dsuppress-uniques -dsuppress-module-prefixes` worked, haha
2020-12-25 14:19:41 +0000 <siraben> I was wondering why http://ix.io/2JuY typechecked
2020-12-25 14:21:18 +0000unfixpoint(1f0a965a@31-10-150-90.cgn.dynamic.upc.ch)
2020-12-25 14:22:03 +0000 <siraben> new bug report: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/19120
2020-12-25 14:22:22 +0000kenran(~kenran@mue-88-130-62-111.dsl.tropolys.de)
2020-12-25 14:25:24 +0000 <wz1000> siraben: is there some CSE going on in the core?
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2020-12-25 14:28:08 +0000 <siraben> wz1000: even if there was, this should fail: http://ix.io/2Jv0
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2020-12-25 15:24:27 +0000 <kuribas> is this related to monadBaseControl? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/transformers-base-0.4.5.2/docs/Control-Monad-Base.html
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2020-12-25 15:30:03 +0000 <kuribas> is there a way to "map" an inner monad? Like (m a -> n a) -> t m a -> t n a
2020-12-25 15:30:06 +0000 <kuribas> ?
2020-12-25 15:30:30 +0000 <Uniaika> I see what you mean
2020-12-25 15:30:39 +0000 <Uniaika> but I don't think I could implement it
2020-12-25 15:30:46 +0000 <Uniaika> hmm
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2020-12-25 15:34:58 +0000 <kuribas> maybe not even possible in general
2020-12-25 15:35:39 +0000 <MarcelineVQ> kuribas: hoist of mmorph
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2020-12-25 15:36:56 +0000 <trafaret1> o/
2020-12-25 15:37:12 +0000 <kuribas> MarcelineVQ: neat, thanks :)
2020-12-25 15:38:34 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-25 15:38:35 +0000 <trafaret1> dear haskellers as a newbie want to know subtle difference between learning lisp and haskell?
2020-12-25 15:38:55 +0000juuandyy(~juuandyy@90.166.144.65)
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2020-12-25 15:43:39 +0000 <kuribas> there is nothing subtle between lisp and haskell, they are totally different.
2020-12-25 15:45:31 +0000 <trafaret1> kuribas: for military purpose which one would be prefferable lisp or haskell. i.e. i want to create models of hyper speed missles and poisones for military purpose
2020-12-25 15:46:35 +0000 <kuribas> trafaret1: sounds like you want a CAD library, instead of a programming language.
2020-12-25 15:47:26 +0000 <kuribas> trafaret1: brl-cad was actually developed by the army
2020-12-25 15:48:28 +0000 <trafaret1> kuribas: hmm It's free like in freedom
2020-12-25 15:49:01 +0000 <kuribas> though it'd be nicer to use any of those for peaceful purposes.
2020-12-25 15:49:29 +0000dandart(~Thunderbi@2a00:23c7:f5a6:d001:6056:da77:5ae:49a2)
2020-12-25 15:49:50 +0000 <Uniaika> kuribas: I'd be interested to see your implementation of hoist of mmorph :)
2020-12-25 15:50:21 +0000 <kuribas> Uniaika: for which class?
2020-12-25 15:50:30 +0000 <kuribas> which instance better?
2020-12-25 15:53:03 +0000 <Uniaika> hmm
2020-12-25 15:53:16 +0000infinity0(~infinity0@freenet/developer/infinity0) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-12-25 15:53:31 +0000 <Uniaika> let's do something simple? IO [a]?
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2020-12-25 15:55:30 +0000 <kuribas> IO is not a transfomer...
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2020-12-25 15:59:26 +0000 <kuribas> did you mean ListT?
2020-12-25 15:59:38 +0000 <kuribas> ListT is hardly simple. It's not even a proper transformer.
2020-12-25 15:59:41 +0000trafaret1(~user@178.206.114.251) ("ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)")
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2020-12-25 16:00:29 +0000 <Uniaika> kuribas: dangit. ReaderT then?
2020-12-25 16:00:33 +0000 <Uniaika> and uh
2020-12-25 16:00:43 +0000 <Uniaika> hmm, I realise I don't stack Transformers that much
2020-12-25 16:00:57 +0000 <Uniaika> okay why not a simple WriterT + ReaderT?
2020-12-25 16:01:38 +0000 <computerbernd> heya, can anyone help me extract the Aeson Object from field "doc" and convert to type SensorData using Data.Aeson.Lens? https://pastebin.com/KFfhFe4D
2020-12-25 16:02:52 +0000kritzefitz(~kritzefit@212.86.56.80)
2020-12-25 16:03:20 +0000 <kuribas> Uniaika: instance Hoist ReaderT where hoist f (ReaderT g) = ReaderT $ f . g
2020-12-25 16:03:59 +0000HarveyPwca(~HarveyPwc@2601:246:c180:a570:29df:3b00:ad0e:3a06)
2020-12-25 16:05:25 +0000justsomeguy(~justsomeg@unaffiliated/--/x-3805311) ()
2020-12-25 16:05:49 +0000cheater1(~user@unaffiliated/cheater)
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2020-12-25 16:06:09 +0000 <kuribas> Uniaika: instance Hoist (WriterT w) where hoist f (WriterT m) = WriterT $ f m
2020-12-25 16:06:12 +0000 <Uniaika> kuribas: this awfully looks like Functor ((->) r), right?
2020-12-25 16:06:58 +0000 <kuribas> yeah
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2020-12-25 16:09:30 +0000 <kuribas> so hoist is basically fmap . unwrap?
2020-12-25 16:10:15 +0000paintcan(~user@cpe-69-206-241-99.nyc.res.rr.com)
2020-12-25 16:10:20 +0000 <kuribas> well wrap . fmap . unwrap?
2020-12-25 16:10:26 +0000heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:49a9:d2cc:4eca:a521)
2020-12-25 16:10:48 +0000 <kuribas> shame these aren't provided by default
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2020-12-25 16:14:29 +0000hackageincremental-parser 0.5.0.1 - Generic parser library capable of providing partial results from partial input. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/incremental-parser-0.5.0.1 (MarioBlazevic)
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2020-12-25 16:19:19 +0000Jeanne-Kamikaze(~Jeanne-Ka@static-198-54-134-138.cust.tzulo.com)
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2020-12-25 16:26:42 +0000 <nf> if i have a top-level m :: Nat , can i somehow use it like cyclicGroup @Integer @m ? (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/arithmoi-0.11.0.1/docs/Math-NumberTheory-Moduli-Singleton.html…)
2020-12-25 16:26:50 +0000 <nf> er, Natural
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2020-12-25 16:47:10 +0000 <computerbernd> hi, i got this monster to parse some aeson Value, how do i get to a Data.Aeson.Lens one liner? https://pastebin.com/gk8wirBn
2020-12-25 16:47:54 +0000 <xerox_> nf: doesn't glguy's do that
2020-12-25 16:48:19 +0000 <nf> he uses a type Modulus :: Nat directly
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2020-12-25 16:52:37 +0000 <glguy> nf, you'll need to get it into a Some-variant
2020-12-25 16:52:48 +0000 <glguy> And then do the algorithm in a case statement
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2020-12-25 16:52:58 +0000 <nf> but then can i use discreteLogarithm?
2020-12-25 16:53:52 +0000 <glguy> Yeah
2020-12-25 16:53:56 +0000 <glguy> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.12.0.0/docs/GHC-TypeNats.html#t:SomeNat
2020-12-25 16:54:50 +0000 <nf> but cyclicGroup :: forall a m. (Integral a, UniqueFactorisation a, KnownNat m) => Maybe (CyclicGroup a m)
2020-12-25 16:55:03 +0000 <nf> how do i get a KnownNat there
2020-12-25 16:56:56 +0000 <glguy> Case on the SomeNat
2020-12-25 16:57:29 +0000 <nf> oooh right, it has a KnownNat inside
2020-12-25 16:57:53 +0000 <nf> type-level stuff in haskell is so confusing *_*
2020-12-25 16:59:46 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-12-25 17:03:13 +0000 <monochrom> This is why I avoid non-trivial type-level techniques.
2020-12-25 17:03:40 +0000 <monochrom> encodings and emulations die die die.
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2020-12-25 17:29:10 +0000 <kuribas> Uniaika: considering how easy they are to write, they should have been standard, like MonadTrans...
2020-12-25 17:29:33 +0000 <Uniaika> kuribas: awaiting your MR on GHC :)
2020-12-25 17:29:34 +0000 <Uniaika> :3
2020-12-25 17:29:49 +0000 <Uniaika> (joking, I think this would warrant a libraries proposal first)
2020-12-25 17:30:22 +0000 <nf> so... this works https://github.com/ncfavier/aoc/blob/master/src/2020/Day25.hs#L14
2020-12-25 17:30:33 +0000 <nf> but if i remove @Integer i get "Could not deduce (Integral a0) arising from a use of ‘isPrimitiveRoot’"
2020-12-25 17:30:52 +0000 <nf> seems like i'm doing exactly the same thing as glguy though o_O
2020-12-25 17:31:02 +0000 <nf> maybe some language extension
2020-12-25 17:31:42 +0000 <computerbernd> what does it mean that 'join (parseMaybe A.parseJSON <$> (r ^? nth 0 ^? key "doc"))' results in "No instance for (AsValue (Maybe Value)) arising from a use of ‘key’"?
2020-12-25 17:33:32 +0000 <nf> oh god, it's the monomorphism restriction
2020-12-25 17:34:36 +0000 <nf> ok i have no idea what's happening
2020-12-25 17:35:22 +0000 <kuribas> Uniaika: I don't mean just base, also monad transformers in libraries.
2020-12-25 17:35:39 +0000 <kuribas> Uniaika: but if it's in base, then libraries are more likely to implement them :)
2020-12-25 17:36:13 +0000 <Uniaika> kuribas: awaiting your email to libraries@ then :3
2020-12-25 17:36:24 +0000 <kuribas> where is that?
2020-12-25 17:36:54 +0000 <Uniaika> https://mail.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/libraries kuribas
2020-12-25 17:37:00 +0000 <kuribas> ok, thanks
2020-12-25 17:39:32 +0000theelous3(~theelous3@unaffiliated/theelous3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-25 17:39:41 +0000 <kuribas> Ah, I see some other nice discussions, like sum and product :)
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2020-12-25 17:41:33 +0000 <Uniaika> kuribas: always happy to bring the good stuff in base! o7
2020-12-25 17:41:59 +0000 <kuribas> it's about time...
2020-12-25 17:42:15 +0000 <alexfmpe> looking for a binary serialization library that lets me align values via padding on multi-word boundaries (e.g. left-pad to 4 bytes, right-pad to 8 bytes)
2020-12-25 17:42:15 +0000 <alexfmpe> binary and cereal have a `bytesRead :: Get Int64` but no `bytesWritten` equivalent, so it looks like I need to resort to `runPut` to look at the current size to compute padding size
2020-12-25 17:43:30 +0000 <dsal> computerbernd: do you have an example input you're trying to take apart?
2020-12-25 17:43:52 +0000 <dsal> That second ^? should probably be .
2020-12-25 17:44:38 +0000 <dsal> But it's weird that you're trying to parse json out of json
2020-12-25 17:46:09 +0000 <glguy> nf: I'll take a look, I don't know what's different. Separate issue: no.cabal project??
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2020-12-25 17:55:50 +0000 <pie_> does anyone know if the (?) hslua author (?) is on irc https://github.com/tarleb
2020-12-25 17:56:35 +0000 <Uniaika> kuribas: sometimes we need to be the change we want to see in the world
2020-12-25 18:00:28 +0000 <glguy> nf, Did you *disable* the monomorphism restriction?
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2020-12-25 18:11:00 +0000hackageatom-conduit 0.9.0.1 - Streaming parser/renderer for the Atom 1.0 standard (RFC 4287). https://hackage.haskell.org/package/atom-conduit-0.9.0.1 (koral)
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2020-12-25 18:25:53 +0000 <glguy> nf, you've convinced me to make the solver a bit more general: https://github.com/glguy/advent2020/blob/master/execs/Day25.hs
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2020-12-25 18:26:28 +0000 <nf> i don't like the monomorphism restriction
2020-12-25 18:28:50 +0000 <int-e> . o O ( pari/gp: p = 20201227; d = <door>; k = <key>; g = Mod(7,p); Mod(d,p)^znlog(Mod(k,p),g) )
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2020-12-25 18:29:23 +0000 <glguy> nf, probably better to just learn it than introduce inefficiency avoiding it though
2020-12-25 18:29:48 +0000 <nf> i'd rather learn not to introduce inefficiency with it!
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2020-12-25 18:30:19 +0000 <glguy> that's significantly more work
2020-12-25 18:30:28 +0000 <nf> maybe
2020-12-25 18:30:34 +0000 <glguy> and error prone
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2020-12-25 18:32:30 +0000hackagesafe-json 1.1.1.1 - Automatic JSON format versioning https://hackage.haskell.org/package/safe-json-1.1.1.1 (nideco)
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2020-12-25 19:03:03 +0000 <gentauro> how to `mapM` (more like `mapConcurrently`) over the following type: `Either String [Guid]`?
2020-12-25 19:03:31 +0000berberman(~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman)
2020-12-25 19:03:42 +0000 <gentauro> if I use `<$>` (`fmap`) it will unwrap the `Either` type right?
2020-12-25 19:04:22 +0000 <Rembane> fmap will unwrap the Right-part of the Either.
2020-12-25 19:04:32 +0000berberman_(~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-25 19:04:47 +0000 <Rembane> Or rather, it will let you apply a function to the Right-part of Either.
2020-12-25 19:05:10 +0000 <gentauro> Rembane: which in this case is `mapM / mapConcurrently`?
2020-12-25 19:06:19 +0000 <Rembane> gentauro: It's the Right-part too, if that's what you're asking. :)
2020-12-25 19:07:28 +0000 <gentauro> hmmm
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2020-12-25 19:08:10 +0000coot(~coot@37.30.55.131.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
2020-12-25 19:08:47 +0000 <gentauro> The following extract the unique identified from the `parsed` entities: `fmap getGuid <$> parseEntities entities`
2020-12-25 19:09:03 +0000 <gentauro> which are of the type `Either String [Bytes]`
2020-12-25 19:09:28 +0000 <gentauro> so the `<$>` unwraps the Either type and the other `fmap` applys the function over the list of entities
2020-12-25 19:09:39 +0000 <gentauro> so I need to use both `fmap` and `<$>`
2020-12-25 19:09:42 +0000 <dsal> :t fmap . mapM
2020-12-25 19:09:44 +0000 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Monad m, Functor f) => (a -> m b) -> f (t a) -> f (m (t b))
2020-12-25 19:10:19 +0000 <dsal> :t mapM . fmap
2020-12-25 19:10:21 +0000 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a -> b) -> t (m a) -> m (t b)
2020-12-25 19:11:59 +0000hackagechessIO 0.6.0.0 - Basic chess library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/chessIO-0.6.0.0 (mlang)
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2020-12-25 19:12:39 +0000 <gentauro> `lsp` is really worse tha `intero`. Gosh I miss `intero` :(
2020-12-25 19:13:18 +0000 <dsal> > (fmap . mapM) (const [5]) $ Right [1,2,3]
2020-12-25 19:13:20 +0000 <lambdabot> Right [[5,5,5]]
2020-12-25 19:13:22 +0000 <dminuoso> nf: The MMR trades the rare type error (fixable by adding a type signature) for very hard to track down lack-of-sharing bugs that are, even to experienced Haskellers, hard to spot.
2020-12-25 19:14:03 +0000 <gentauro> is it normal if the project doesn't build that `lsp` "just give up?".
2020-12-25 19:14:39 +0000 <dminuoso> We recently had this example where we tried to figure out why a particular code path wouldn't share, with I think 5 experienced Haskellers in here not figuring out for nearly 30 minutes. The MMR is good and must stay. :)
2020-12-25 19:16:18 +0000 <gentauro> dminuoso: `MMR`? are you talking `dota2` now?
2020-12-25 19:16:23 +0000rayyyy(~nanoz@gateway/tor-sasl/nanoz) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-25 19:16:31 +0000 <gentauro> oh, it's related to nf
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2020-12-25 19:21:12 +0000 <gentauro> 19:32 * hackage safe-json 1.1.1.1 - Automatic JSON format versioning https://hackage.haskell.org/package/safe-json-1.1.1.1 (nideco)
2020-12-25 19:21:19 +0000Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:9542:1a54:6ed5:1392)
2020-12-25 19:21:28 +0000 <gentauro> `Safe Haskell: None` (oh gosh)
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2020-12-25 19:22:00 +0000hackageimm 2.1.0.0 - Execute arbitrary actions for each item from RSS/Atom feeds https://hackage.haskell.org/package/imm-2.1.0.0 (koral)
2020-12-25 19:22:18 +0000 <gentauro> it reminds me of people when they try to misguide users with statements like: "Oh so you code in Haskell that is `pure`? Well this JS lib is in `pure` JS"
2020-12-25 19:22:24 +0000Sgeo(~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net)
2020-12-25 19:22:24 +0000 <gentauro> what the heck is `pure` JS?
2020-12-25 19:23:57 +0000 <Rembane> pure JS is JAvascript that doesn't use jQuery
2020-12-25 19:24:22 +0000 <Rembane> ...or any other library
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2020-12-25 20:12:30 +0000 <koz_> If I wanna draw graphs (vertices-and-edges, not charts) from Haskell, what should I use?
2020-12-25 20:12:30 +0000hackagecabal2nix 2.15.6 - Convert Cabal files into Nix build instructions. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal2nix-2.15.6 (PeterSimons)
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2020-12-25 20:16:58 +0000 <koz_> maerwald: I'm getting this when I try to compile GHC 8.10.3 with ghcup: https://gist.github.com/kozross/670d6aed5de76f75ea00806dcf0f6c11
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2020-12-25 20:33:43 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> where can I learn more about monads
2020-12-25 20:34:01 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> in a rather "concise" way
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2020-12-25 20:34:13 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> preferably not a long book chapter
2020-12-25 20:34:15 +0000knupfer(~Thunderbi@200116b8248ff600b8e82c0882f29b26.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2020-12-25 20:34:23 +0000DirefulSalt(DirefulSal@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/direfulsalt)
2020-12-25 20:34:41 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> rather an example of practical use?
2020-12-25 20:35:01 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> I may be asking for too much haha
2020-12-25 20:35:52 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: I'd say, first try to understand how IO works.
2020-12-25 20:35:58 +0000 <kuribas> and Maybe
2020-12-25 20:37:07 +0000 <kuribas> like, what does "do x <- Just 3; y <- Just 3; pure (x + y)" do?
2020-12-25 20:37:27 +0000 <kuribas> or "do x <- Just 3; y <- Nothing; pure (x + y)"
2020-12-25 20:37:58 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: if you got an intuition for some instances, understand the whole pattern becomes trivial.
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2020-12-25 20:44:19 +0000 <sm[m]> fuzzypixelz: just read code in some small projects
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2020-12-25 20:44:41 +0000gioyik(~gioyik@186.112.107.251)
2020-12-25 20:45:01 +0000 <sm[m]> Eg cli tools
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2020-12-25 20:46:04 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: btw, thinking of a Monad as "configurable do notation" is a good start.
2020-12-25 20:46:19 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> sm[m]: do you any in mind?
2020-12-25 20:47:24 +0000 <sm[m]> no, just small ones on hackage, I think there's a category for them
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2020-12-25 20:49:02 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: did you try writing some IO with do notation?
2020-12-25 20:49:39 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> btw, in IO for example, I have a difficult time understanding why people say "writing a string to stdout is a side effect", is it just because it might fail? Can't we just say "let this function write a string to stdout and return 1 if it suceeds and 0 otherwise"
2020-12-25 20:50:07 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> kuribas: oh yes, mainly with readFile and putStr
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2020-12-25 20:51:07 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> I understand how the bind, anonymous bind work and return work
2020-12-25 20:51:10 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: the idea of a side-effect is that it's some desirable outcome, but which cannot be considered a value.
2020-12-25 20:52:44 +0000knupfer(~Thunderbi@200116b8248ff600c4f4ca64117d4161.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2020-12-25 20:52:45 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> kuribas: can't we just agree on a value to assign to it?
2020-12-25 20:53:04 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: for example a value cannot distinguish between a value which is written to my screen, or when you redirect to file. Those are clearly different.
2020-12-25 20:53:43 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: the value 1 or 0 have nothing to do with writing to stdout.
2020-12-25 20:54:26 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: think about this: the effect of writing to stdout can be different everytime.
2020-12-25 20:54:37 +0000 <kuribas> it's not just binary
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2020-12-25 20:55:33 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> kuribas: so how does the IO monad handle this internally?
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2020-12-25 20:56:17 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> kuribas: when I use `putStrLn "Haskell"`, what information does the Monad I get back actually contain?
2020-12-25 20:56:33 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: internally it's converted to a procedure.
2020-12-25 20:57:02 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: the information you get is "write haskell to stdout".
2020-12-25 20:57:24 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: think of it as a checklist.
2020-12-25 20:57:45 +0000 <kuribas> whatever you do with the checklist is handled somewhere else.
2020-12-25 20:58:00 +0000 <kuribas> you could throw the checklist in the bin, or go over it twice, ...
2020-12-25 20:58:15 +0000 <kuribas> or make 5000 copies of it.
2020-12-25 20:58:23 +0000 <kuribas> however the checklist itself does nothing.
2020-12-25 20:58:31 +0000 <kuribas> that's where main comes in
2020-12-25 20:58:47 +0000 <kuribas> main takes the checklist, and performs all actions in it.
2020-12-25 20:59:10 +0000 <kuribas> so, an IO action does nothing
2020-12-25 20:59:44 +0000 <kuribas> it's actually main (or the ghci repl), which does the action.
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2020-12-25 21:00:19 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> kuribas: Aha! I wasn't thinking of it that way! I thought it the monad did the action and returned something about wether it was succesfull or not
2020-12-25 21:00:57 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> kuribas: so how does main behave if some action in our checklist fails
2020-12-25 21:01:24 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> does it just throw an excetion?
2020-12-25 21:01:24 +0000 <kuribas> you mean an exception?
2020-12-25 21:01:42 +0000 <kuribas> depends on the definition of "fails"
2020-12-25 21:01:54 +0000 <kuribas> > error "foo"
2020-12-25 21:01:56 +0000 <lambdabot> *Exception: foo
2020-12-25 21:01:59 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> For example I tried to write to /etc/file
2020-12-25 21:02:31 +0000 <kuribas> that will throw an exception
2020-12-25 21:03:10 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> does the monad itself "return" an exception?
2020-12-25 21:03:27 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> no wait that doesn't make sense
2020-12-25 21:04:22 +0000kam1(~kam1@24.231.108.143)
2020-12-25 21:05:14 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> I still don't see why we need it to be a monad, is the IO monad anything more than a procedure?
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2020-12-25 21:06:58 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> we certainly need bind and return so that we can work with functions returning monads, but it there anything else to it?
2020-12-25 21:07:03 +0000avdb(~avdb@gateway/tor-sasl/avdb) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-25 21:07:31 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: no, main does
2020-12-25 21:07:58 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: essentially it's just a procedure
2020-12-25 21:08:31 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: the main reason for having monads in haskell, is so you know which action comes first and which next.
2020-12-25 21:08:43 +0000 <kuribas> pure functions are lazy, so they can be executed in any order.
2020-12-25 21:09:01 +0000 <kuribas> monads ensure the action are executed in the order you want.
2020-12-25 21:09:11 +0000fcortesi(~fcortesi@78-66-245-190.fibertel.com.ar) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2020-12-25 21:09:14 +0000 <kuribas> And they have actually many other nice properties.
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2020-12-25 21:09:40 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> kuribas: I thought the point was for functions to not have side effects
2020-12-25 21:10:18 +0000 <kuribas> the don't have side-effects.
2020-12-25 21:10:48 +0000 <solonarv> *side* effects are called that because they happen "on the side" and aren't called out explicitly
2020-12-25 21:11:10 +0000 <kuribas> so the only way to "observe" what a function does, is by using IO.
2020-12-25 21:11:54 +0000 <solonarv> also, the point is for *evaluating* things to not have side effects; that's still true for, say 'putStrLn "Haskell"', because evaluating that only means "figure out what all the items on the checklist say"
2020-12-25 21:12:05 +0000Jeanne-Kamikaze(~Jeanne-Ka@static-198-54-134-62.cust.tzulo.com)
2020-12-25 21:12:44 +0000 <kuribas> right, evaluating a pure function that returns an action, will not actually perform the action.
2020-12-25 21:12:53 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> solonarv: what would be an example of a side effect for putStrLn
2020-12-25 21:13:00 +0000 <kuribas> hence will not perform side-effects.
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2020-12-25 21:13:42 +0000 <exarkun> is `IO [a] -> [IO a]` possible with a big tangled mess?
2020-12-25 21:13:47 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> if performing the action is a side effect, then the main function is not pure is it??
2020-12-25 21:14:08 +0000 <exarkun> fuzzypixelz: But there is separation between the two
2020-12-25 21:14:21 +0000 <exarkun> fuzzypixelz: The main function is a pure function that *makes* the action
2020-12-25 21:14:35 +0000 <exarkun> fuzzypixelz: It does not perform the action
2020-12-25 21:14:46 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2020-12-25 21:14:47 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: anything that alters the state of the computer or the outside world is considered a side-effect. The only side-effect that *evaluating* a pure function does, is increasin CPU load, and slighly heating up the transistors.
2020-12-25 21:15:23 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> well, at which point in my program is the action perfomed
2020-12-25 21:15:35 +0000 <exarkun> After main returns it to the runtime
2020-12-25 21:15:45 +0000 <exarkun> or when you explicitly call `unsafePerformIO` :)
2020-12-25 21:17:10 +0000neiluj(~jco@91-167-203-101.subs.proxad.net)
2020-12-25 21:17:10 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> so the Haskell program really is absolutely pure and will only do what I typed into it
2020-12-25 21:19:08 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> or rather, the Haskell program always returns the exact same set of instructions to the run-time and then that is executed
2020-12-25 21:19:31 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> assuming we give it the exact same input
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2020-12-25 21:19:47 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> right?
2020-12-25 21:20:04 +0000Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@213.178.26.41) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-25 21:20:35 +0000 <kuribas> if by Haskll program you mean a pure function, then yes.
2020-12-25 21:20:37 +0000Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@213.178.26.41)
2020-12-25 21:20:44 +0000 <kuribas> however main is considered part of a haskell program.
2020-12-25 21:21:21 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> kuribas: main is not a pure function? doesn't it just return a IO () ?
2020-12-25 21:21:28 +0000 <kuribas> main isn't a function
2020-12-25 21:22:05 +0000 <exarkun> Sorry, I said "main returns" above which was imprecise and incorrect.
2020-12-25 21:22:08 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> I mean it has type signature `main :: IO ()`
2020-12-25 21:22:33 +0000 <kuribas> the haskell runtime looks at the main IO action, and starts executing it.
2020-12-25 21:22:38 +0000 <exarkun> fuzzypixelz: Right. It _is_ the IO action.
2020-12-25 21:23:20 +0000 <kuribas> when it sees pure funtions it evaluates those (lazily, as needed), and if it finds other IO actions it performs them in order.
2020-12-25 21:24:33 +0000cr3(~cr3@192-222-143-195.qc.cable.ebox.net)
2020-12-25 21:25:17 +0000Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:f0ca:b34:ab31:1410)
2020-12-25 21:26:24 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> kuribas: normaly the only IO actions are described in main right?
2020-12-25 21:26:31 +0000 <kuribas> yes
2020-12-25 21:27:07 +0000 <kuribas> you can *call* other actions from main though
2020-12-25 21:27:12 +0000 <dsal> I'm not sure IO is the easiest monad to understand, but it's important to understand different ones.
2020-12-25 21:27:43 +0000 <kuribas> I think the hard thing is to understand IO, not monads...
2020-12-25 21:27:59 +0000 <dsal> Yeah. IO is complicated for a variety of reasons.
2020-12-25 21:28:06 +0000 <dsal> Maybe is an easy Monad.
2020-12-25 21:28:15 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> kuribas: like I could make a funcion return an IO monad to print a string and then call that in main?
2020-12-25 21:28:19 +0000benjamingr__(uid23465@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ijdfrtykxmezfdmc)
2020-12-25 21:29:02 +0000 <dsal> % let f :: IO String; f = pure "hi" in putStrLn =<< f
2020-12-25 21:29:02 +0000 <yahb> dsal: hi
2020-12-25 21:29:14 +0000 <kuribas> fuzzypixelz: of course
2020-12-25 21:29:42 +0000sand_dull(~theuser@c-73-149-95-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net)
2020-12-25 21:29:45 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> dsal: I see how maybe is useful. The Safe division problem convinced me, Maybe allows us to propagate any divisions by zero while evaluating an arbitrary expression
2020-12-25 21:30:18 +0000ADG1089__(~aditya@27.58.161.118) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-25 21:30:26 +0000 <dsal> Yeah, but I mean understanding the Monad instance, not just Maybe values.
2020-12-25 21:31:43 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> dsal: by monad instance you mean Maybe + bind + return?
2020-12-25 21:32:41 +0000 <dsal> To be "A monad" a type must have an instance of the Monad class. Maybe does.
2020-12-25 21:33:39 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> dsal: what's an example use case of Maybe as a strict Monad?
2020-12-25 21:34:26 +0000 <dsal> I'm not good at coming up with examples. heh
2020-12-25 21:34:28 +0000 <dsal> > let mx = Just 2; mo = Just (*); my = Just 3 in do { x <- mx; o <- mo; y <- my; pure (x * y) }
2020-12-25 21:34:30 +0000 <lambdabot> Just 6
2020-12-25 21:34:36 +0000 <dsal> > let mx = Just 2; mo = Nothing; my = Just 3 in do { x <- mx; o <- mo; y <- my; pure (x * y) }
2020-12-25 21:34:38 +0000 <lambdabot> Nothing
2020-12-25 21:34:56 +0000axeman-(~axeman_@ip5f5af023.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
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2020-12-25 21:35:48 +0000 <dsal> But in general, if you have Maybe values, you can work with them like they're not Maybe values.
2020-12-25 21:36:09 +0000axeman-(~axeman_@2a02:8109:86c0:1f98:7400:45ca:c351:7a51)
2020-12-25 21:36:42 +0000 <dsal> > let mx = Right 2; mo = Right (*); my = Right 3 in do { x <- mx; o <- mo; y <- my; pure (x * y) }
2020-12-25 21:36:44 +0000 <lambdabot> Right 6
2020-12-25 21:36:49 +0000 <dsal> > let mx = Right 2; mo = Left "oh no"; my = Right 3 in do { x <- mx; o <- mo; y <- my; pure (x * y) }
2020-12-25 21:36:52 +0000 <lambdabot> Left "oh no"
2020-12-25 21:37:49 +0000DirefulSalt(DirefulSal@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/direfulsalt) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-25 21:38:07 +0000ransom_(~c4264035@8.47.12.52)
2020-12-25 21:38:12 +0000 <dsal> (notice that do block didn't change. Same thing for IO or any other monad)
2020-12-25 21:40:10 +0000 <dsal> Maybe is the easiest thing to understand here. Basically bind will pass the Just value forward as a parameter to the next function, or in the case of Nothing, won't call any of the remaining code, and just return the Nothing value.
2020-12-25 21:40:26 +0000 <dsal> @undo do { x <- mx; o <- mo; y <- my; pure (x * y) }
2020-12-25 21:40:26 +0000 <lambdabot> mx >>= \ x -> mo >>= \ o -> my >>= \ y -> pure (x * y)
2020-12-25 21:40:27 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-25 21:40:49 +0000royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-25 21:41:08 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> dsal: I see what mean
2020-12-25 21:41:21 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> *you mean
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2020-12-25 21:41:48 +0000 <dsal> (Just x) >>= k = k x
2020-12-25 21:41:48 +0000 <dsal> Nothing >>= _ = Nothing
2020-12-25 21:42:04 +0000 <dsal> (I just plucked that out of the source)
2020-12-25 21:42:30 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> source code for Maybe?
2020-12-25 21:43:22 +0000 <dsal> Maybe's Monad instance in particular.
2020-12-25 21:44:07 +0000 <dsal> IO would be a little harder to reason about, but it's conceptually similar. You just end up having to learn about stuff like MonadFail and other messes.
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2020-12-25 21:48:00 +0000 <dsal> Hmm... I don't actually know how to find a case where I've used the Maybe monad because I did it implicitly.
2020-12-25 21:48:12 +0000bisickcor(~username@117.200.1.158)
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2020-12-25 21:49:54 +0000 <dsal> Heh. Looking through some of my code, I'm not even sure what monad I'm in just because it doesn't really matter.
2020-12-25 21:50:01 +0000Guess59061(4e01b525@unaffiliated/guess59061)
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2020-12-25 21:51:34 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> dsal, kuribas, exarkun: thank you all!
2020-12-25 21:51:44 +0000axeman-(~axeman_@2a02:8109:86c0:1f98:7400:45ca:c351:7a51)
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2020-12-25 21:53:36 +0000 <dsal> I don't know that I *would* write this this way, but you also get stuff like guard:
2020-12-25 21:53:37 +0000 <dsal> > let safeDiv mn md = do { n <- mn; d <- md; guard (d /= 0); pure (n `div` d) } in Just 30 `safeDiv` Just 3 `safeDiv` Just 5
2020-12-25 21:53:40 +0000 <lambdabot> Just 2
2020-12-25 21:53:41 +0000 <dsal> > let safeDiv mn md = do { n <- mn; d <- md; guard (d /= 0); pure (n `div` d) } in Just 30 `safeDiv` Just 0 `safeDiv` Just 5
2020-12-25 21:53:43 +0000 <lambdabot> Nothing
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2020-12-25 21:57:36 +0000 <dsal> fuzzypixelz: Oh, I found one of the cases! https://github.com/dustin/gopro/blob/master/src/GoPro/Commands/Backup.hs#L109-L114
2020-12-25 21:57:38 +0000Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@213.178.26.41) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-25 21:57:39 +0000 <ddellacosta> so I'm reading this code that uses ContT heavily, and I think I get it, but I have a question: it's really just a syntactic convenience here, right? Otherwise we'd have to deal with piles and piles of indented withX blocks...?
2020-12-25 21:57:46 +0000 <ddellacosta> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/alsa-seq-0.6.0.7/src/examples/beat.hs
2020-12-25 21:57:53 +0000hiroaki(~hiroaki@ip4d168e73.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
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2020-12-25 21:58:08 +0000Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@213.178.26.41)
2020-12-25 21:58:22 +0000 <dsal> Here, I've got a JSON value and I'm extracting a bunch of values with lens to combine into something. If any of my lookups fail, then I don't have the thing I think, so I return Nothinig.
2020-12-25 21:58:36 +0000 <Guess59061> Why does `lucky 7 = "whatever"` need to have a member of the Eq typeclass as its parameter? Is it because whatever parameter is supplied, it'll internally be checked whether it's equal to 7?
2020-12-25 21:59:10 +0000aarvar(~foewfoiew@2601:602:a080:fa0:ac47:8893:80c1:4f6c)
2020-12-25 21:59:13 +0000 <dsal> Guess59061: I'm not sure what you're asking. It doesn't quite make sense.
2020-12-25 21:59:23 +0000axeman-(~axeman_@2a02:8109:86c0:1f98:7400:45ca:c351:7a51) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-25 21:59:29 +0000 <dsal> > let lucky 7 = "whatever" in lucky 7
2020-12-25 21:59:31 +0000 <lambdabot> "whatever"
2020-12-25 21:59:55 +0000 <merijn> Guess59061: Well, how else would you compare 7 to anything?
2020-12-25 22:00:04 +0000 <merijn> Guess59061: Keep in mind 7 is polymorphic
2020-12-25 22:00:13 +0000 <merijn> dsal: That'll infer as (Num a, Eq a)
2020-12-25 22:00:18 +0000 <Guess59061> merijn There's some kind of internal "if" I suppose then.
2020-12-25 22:00:24 +0000 <merijn> Guess59061: Yes
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2020-12-25 22:00:43 +0000 <merijn> :t \7 -> ()
2020-12-25 22:00:44 +0000 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Num a) => a -> ()
2020-12-25 22:00:46 +0000 <dsal> merijn: Sure, but I think there's information missing.
2020-12-25 22:01:04 +0000 <merijn> Guess59061: The question was "why is Eq there?"
2020-12-25 22:01:08 +0000 <merijn> eh
2020-12-25 22:01:16 +0000 <merijn> s/Guess59061/dsal
2020-12-25 22:01:27 +0000nbloomf(~nbloomf@2601:285:401:7490:80b2:6d6b:6d09:280)
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2020-12-25 22:02:38 +0000 <dsal> :t let lucky 7 = "whatever" in lucky -- you mean this Eq?
2020-12-25 22:02:39 +0000 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Num a) => a -> [Char]
2020-12-25 22:03:54 +0000 <dsal> OK, I didn't parse the question that way.
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2020-12-25 22:16:06 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> what is an example of a monad where `return` is not `pure`?
2020-12-25 22:16:17 +0000 <glguy> there isn't one
2020-12-25 22:16:18 +0000 <merijn> none
2020-12-25 22:17:03 +0000 <glguy> So why does Monad have a return method? Because it predates the existence of Applicative
2020-12-25 22:18:15 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> :)
2020-12-25 22:18:25 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> glguy: beat me to it
2020-12-25 22:18:28 +0000 <merijn> By almost a decade, even
2020-12-25 22:18:38 +0000recursionIsGreat(4f81c10c@athedsl-4444444.home.otenet.gr)
2020-12-25 22:18:53 +0000 <merijn> And then another decade or something where Applicative existed, but wasn't a superclass of Monad
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2020-12-25 22:19:13 +0000 <recursionIsGreat> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/kk6ulv/need_some_help_with_backtracking_in_haskell/ any help would be appreciated
2020-12-25 22:19:18 +0000royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-25 22:19:51 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> merijn: glad to hear these abstractions weren't just dreamt out in a few months
2020-12-25 22:19:55 +0000 <glguy> recursionIsGreat, you'll have to re-ask here
2020-12-25 22:20:12 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> recursionIsGreat: your post is removed
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2020-12-25 22:21:18 +0000 <merijn> fuzzypixelz: The first version of Haskell didn't even have a monadic interface for IO (or even an IO type) :p
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2020-12-25 22:24:02 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> merijn: it was because functions are lazily evaluated and they couldn't have side effects? That's why monads were introduced, yes?
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2020-12-25 22:24:26 +0000 <merijn> fuzzypixelz: Well, not really. That was already the case from the beginning
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2020-12-25 22:25:00 +0000 <merijn> IO and it's monadic interface were introduced because the interface before it sucked and everyone agreed the current approach is infinitely better :p
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2020-12-25 22:25:32 +0000 <monochrom> Laziness was actually a plus for the 1st I/O model.
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2020-12-25 22:26:44 +0000 <monochrom> Imagine you have a simple ADT for I/O commands like "data Command = GetChar | PutChar Char | OpenFile String FileMode | ..."
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2020-12-25 22:27:43 +0000 <monochrom> and you have another simple ADT for the computer's responses to your commands, "data Answer = OK | Error | HereBeChar Char | HereBeHandle Handle | ..."
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2020-12-25 22:28:27 +0000 <monochrom> Then you code up your main to this type: "main :: [Answer] -> [Command]". Important: I have no typo there.
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2020-12-25 22:29:16 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> wait why, answer and then command?
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2020-12-25 22:29:34 +0000 <monochrom> The semantics: You produce a lazy list of commands, perhaps some later commands depend on some earlier answers. You receive a lazy list of answers.
2020-12-25 22:29:45 +0000 <merijn> fuzzypixelz: Well, if you read from disk you *presumably* want to be able to do something with that data, so it needs to be an input
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2020-12-25 22:30:08 +0000 <glguy> fuzzypixelz, your program generates commands and consumes answers to those commands
2020-12-25 22:30:26 +0000 <monochrom> Think about it. The computer gives you answers. You give commands to the computer. From your POV, you output commands, input answers. Hence, [Answer] -> [Command]
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2020-12-25 22:30:44 +0000 <monochrom> And if [] is super lazy, it can work, you can have later commands depend on earlier answers.
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2020-12-25 22:32:01 +0000 <monochrom> Of course if you code like "main (x:xs) = ..." that is wrong. The 1st answer isn't available until you issue your 1st command.
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2020-12-25 22:32:45 +0000 <monochrom> But this can work: "main xs = GetChar : (case xs of HereBeChar c : xt -> ...)"
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2020-12-25 22:33:24 +0000 <nf> getting answers and giving commands means you're the one in control
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2020-12-25 22:35:08 +0000 <Rembane> It sounds awfully lot like an interpreter.
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2020-12-25 22:35:37 +0000 <nf> that would be the other way around
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2020-12-25 22:36:27 +0000 <merijn> The main thing is: It sucked so hard it's been dead for over a quarter century :p
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2020-12-25 23:08:05 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> this is a really nice blog post: https://diego.codes/post/learning-monads/
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2020-12-25 23:11:22 +0000 <aldum> another monadtutorial? :D
2020-12-25 23:12:40 +0000 <dsal> fuzzypixelz: Your original question included: in a rather "concise" way ... preferably not a long book chapter
2020-12-25 23:13:06 +0000 <dsal> Some shortcuts take much longer than the simple direct route.
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2020-12-25 23:17:23 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> dsal: What do you recommend I do? :)
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2020-12-25 23:21:31 +0000 <dsal> I don't know. I learn by practice, mostly. I did like haskellbook.com for the pace. (some people hate it for the pace). But also had been writing a lot of code at the time.
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2020-12-25 23:22:29 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> in this code, https://github.com/DiegoVicen/monadic-gcd/blob/master/src/MonadicGCD.hs I don't see how the log strings are passed around in each function call, isn't the "saveLog $ show ..." just discarded and then next monad is returned?
2020-12-25 23:22:59 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> dsal: by pace you mean it's slow?
2020-12-25 23:23:49 +0000 <dsal> It walks you through all the parts as if they didn't exist and you have to make them yourself, but by the time you get to a think, you've often needed it, so it basically names a thing that's been annoying you and shows you how to build it.
2020-12-25 23:24:25 +0000 <dsal> I don't have *great* intuition for a lot of the things, but most of the magic went away with that book.
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2020-12-25 23:25:14 +0000 <int-e> dsal: Note how >>= combines the logs of the first and second actions.
2020-12-25 23:25:53 +0000 <int-e> @undo do saveLog something; call something else
2020-12-25 23:25:53 +0000 <lambdabot> <unknown>.hs:1:38:Parse error: else
2020-12-25 23:25:58 +0000 <int-e> oops
2020-12-25 23:26:01 +0000 <int-e> @undo do saveLog something; call something
2020-12-25 23:26:01 +0000 <lambdabot> saveLog something >> call something
2020-12-25 23:26:24 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> int-e: but >> isn't the same this as >>=?
2020-12-25 23:26:33 +0000 <int-e> and a >> b = a >>= \_ -> b
2020-12-25 23:26:35 +0000 <dsal> :t (>>)
2020-12-25 23:26:36 +0000cheater(~user@unaffiliated/cheater)
2020-12-25 23:26:37 +0000 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> m b -> m b
2020-12-25 23:26:39 +0000 <dsal> :t (>>=)
2020-12-25 23:26:40 +0000 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
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2020-12-25 23:26:48 +0000 <int-e> it's implemented in terms of >>=.
2020-12-25 23:27:00 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> oh!
2020-12-25 23:27:26 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> I thought people just wrote that as a property
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2020-12-25 23:28:37 +0000 <int-e> fuzzypixelz: I lied. It is a property, and also the default implementation of >>.
2020-12-25 23:28:47 +0000 <ephemient> well, a monad instance can override it to do something else (e.g. (>>) = (*>))
2020-12-25 23:28:58 +0000 <ephemient> but the default implementation is defined in terms of (>>=)
2020-12-25 23:28:59 +0000 <int-e> but if you go out of your way you can write a lawless instance of Monad that violates this idea.
2020-12-25 23:30:04 +0000 <int-e> It's worth noting that <*> treats the logs in the same way.
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2020-12-25 23:31:57 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> int-e: alright only the value is discarded but the strings are added on, since >>= only binds the value, rereading the implementation for >>= makes sense
2020-12-25 23:33:07 +0000 <fuzzypixelz> Cya! Love you!
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2020-12-25 23:33:59 +0000fuzzypixelz(~fuzzypixe@eth-west-pareq2-46-193-4-100.wb.wifirst.net) ()
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