IRCBrowse

2020/12/07

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2020-12-07 01:18:45 +0100 <texasmynsted> hello
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2020-12-07 01:50:15 +0100 <sm[m]> wow.. almost four hours to track down a cyclic reference hang added to a rare code path months ago
2020-12-07 01:51:01 +0100nowhere_man(~pierre@2a01:e0a:3c7:60d0:e88f:4e24:f6a7:f155) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-07 01:51:18 +0100 <sm[m]> if you're interested: https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/commit/260283e2f123f687be8eb3a0fa710f99550517a8?branch=260…
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2020-12-07 01:52:25 +0100cp-(~cp-@b157153.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
2020-12-07 01:52:34 +0100 <sm[m]> the Can-we-build-reliable-software-with-haskell-department would like to know, how do you prevent these ?
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2020-12-07 02:29:53 +0100ezzieyguywufpops in "Don't use circular references."
2020-12-07 02:29:56 +0100ezzieyguywufducks
2020-12-07 02:30:16 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:406f:6a8d:2175:4183)
2020-12-07 02:30:50 +0100 <cheater> if i'm in powershell and run cabal install and select some text will it actually stop compiling? because i think that just happened
2020-12-07 02:32:17 +0100 <iqubic> I honestly doubt that's what happened.
2020-12-07 02:34:23 +0100 <cheater> thanks
2020-12-07 02:34:36 +0100 <cheater> any clue on why accelerate would fail to build on windows 10 with this error? https://hastebin.com/exulidahow.apache
2020-12-07 02:39:06 +0100pjb(~t@2a01cb04063ec50044c8323fd4c5d635.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2020-12-07 02:40:35 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> the megaparsec tutorial talks about the "choice" combinator: where does tihs come from?
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2020-12-07 02:42:58 +0100 <cheater> i googled "megaparsec choice combinator" and the first result was this: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-4.4.0/docs/Text-Megaparsec-Combinator.html
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2020-12-07 02:46:11 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> doh
2020-12-07 02:46:22 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> you totally should've "lmgtfy"d me
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2020-12-07 02:54:03 +0100 <ephemient> in later versions it is split out to https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parser-combinators-1.2.1/docs/Control-Applicative-Combinators.…
2020-12-07 02:54:36 +0100 <ephemient> as it works with in any Alternative, nut just parsec
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2020-12-07 02:55:54 +0100vonfry(~user@216.127.175.164)
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2020-12-07 02:57:00 +0100 <cheater> ezzieyguywuf: nah i'm trying to be friendly :)
2020-12-07 02:57:58 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> cheater: cheers mate!
2020-12-07 02:58:15 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> ephemient: I saw it in paser-combinators, and then wasn't sure if that was different or not
2020-12-07 02:58:43 +0100vonfry`(~user@216.127.175.164)
2020-12-07 02:59:25 +0100 <ephemient> ezzieyguywuf: megaparsec re-exports Control.Monad.Combinators: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-9.0.1/docs/Text-Megaparsec.html#g:1
2020-12-07 03:00:34 +0100doct0rhu(~orctarorg@pool-72-88-158-154.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
2020-12-07 03:01:32 +0100 <ephemient> which, if you look at its source, just re-exports Control.Applicative.Combinators.choice
2020-12-07 03:01:50 +0100 <ephemient> so it is the same one :)
2020-12-07 03:02:31 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> lol, ephemient thanks, this is mostly what I was asking/looknig for
2020-12-07 03:02:35 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> cheater: also thanks to you!
2020-12-07 03:02:43 +0100 <cheater> yw
2020-12-07 03:02:52 +0100 <cheater> wish i could figure out my build issue :'(
2020-12-07 03:02:57 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-07 03:03:43 +0100 <koz_> cheater: What are you building and how?
2020-12-07 03:03:50 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> cheater: rm -rf /, usually fixes my problems
2020-12-07 03:03:50 +0100rayyyy(~nanoz@gateway/tor-sasl/nanoz)
2020-12-07 03:03:53 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> jk jk
2020-12-07 03:03:57 +0100 <cheater> koz_: i'm building accelerate using cabal
2020-12-07 03:03:59 +0100 <koz_> You said 'accelerate' - is this standalone, as part of something else, some other thing?
2020-12-07 03:04:25 +0100 <cheater> it's used as an include, but all i'm doing is import it into an empty "cabal init" project
2020-12-07 03:04:33 +0100 <ephemient> __p__argv sounds like an issue with windows CRT
2020-12-07 03:04:41 +0100 <cheater> cabal is version 3.2.0.0
2020-12-07 03:04:51 +0100 <cheater> ephemient: what's windows CRT?
2020-12-07 03:05:01 +0100 <koz_> cheater: The C runtime on Windows.
2020-12-07 03:05:07 +0100 <cheater> i think __p means posix and __argv is the argv.
2020-12-07 03:05:07 +0100 <koz_> ephemient: I'd sooner blame that getopt symbol.
2020-12-07 03:05:09 +0100 <ephemient> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/c-runtime-library/internal-crt-globals-and-functions
2020-12-07 03:05:19 +0100 <cheater> and i believe these should be supplied by mingw.
2020-12-07 03:05:25 +0100 <cheater> which i understand cabal is installing with
2020-12-07 03:05:49 +0100 <ephemient> maybe you're linking together objects using different C runtimes
2020-12-07 03:06:03 +0100 <cheater> not that i know of
2020-12-07 03:06:13 +0100 <cheater> i created an empty cabal project and added this package, that's all
2020-12-07 03:06:32 +0100 <cheater> and added an import from the accelerate package into a hello world
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2020-12-07 03:07:32 +0100bgamari(~bgamari@72.65.102.6) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-07 03:07:41 +0100 <koz_> How did you set up GHC and cabal?
2020-12-07 03:08:15 +0100 <cheater> like this https://www.haskell.org/platform/windows.html
2020-12-07 03:08:17 +0100Jesin(~Jesin@pool-72-66-101-18.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2020-12-07 03:08:18 +0100 <cheater> with choco
2020-12-07 03:08:55 +0100 <koz_> Pastebin your cabal file?
2020-12-07 03:09:28 +0100SupaYoshi(~supayoshi@213-10-140-13.fixed.kpn.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-07 03:10:31 +0100SupaYoshi(~supayoshi@213-10-140-13.fixed.kpn.net)
2020-12-07 03:10:55 +0100 <cheater> one sec. i'm making an even simpler project (like without the 2-3 lines that i added that aren't related to this issue)
2020-12-07 03:11:08 +0100SupaYoshi(~supayoshi@213-10-140-13.fixed.kpn.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 03:11:18 +0100 <cheater> and i'm trying to build it on C: instead of on D: in case that might be an issue (i read somewhere things might get confused sometimes)
2020-12-07 03:11:52 +0100 <cheater> but essentially i did cabal init with cabal 3.2.0.0 and then added accelerate to the build-depends for Main.hs
2020-12-07 03:11:57 +0100 <cheater> that's all
2020-12-07 03:12:08 +0100 <cheater> yup
2020-12-07 03:12:09 +0100 <cheater> that's it
2020-12-07 03:12:13 +0100bgamari(~bgamari@72.65.101.236)
2020-12-07 03:12:13 +0100 <cheater> still breaking
2020-12-07 03:12:39 +0100 <cheater> https://hastebin.com/inigayacum.yaml
2020-12-07 03:12:55 +0100 <cheater> er... i didn't choose that url.
2020-12-07 03:13:02 +0100 <koz_> Lol, it's fine.
2020-12-07 03:13:05 +0100bgamari_(~bgamari@72.65.101.97) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 03:13:18 +0100 <cheater> Main.hs is just this: https://hastebin.com/ojepocavep.rb
2020-12-07 03:13:18 +0100 <koz_> I guess you ran 'cabal new-build'?
2020-12-07 03:13:20 +0100zebrag(~inkbottle@aaubervilliers-654-1-115-108.w86-198.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2020-12-07 03:13:28 +0100 <cheater> i ran cabal build. it should default to v2-build.
2020-12-07 03:13:34 +0100 <koz_> Could you pastebin the entire build log?
2020-12-07 03:13:37 +0100zebrag(~inkbottle@aaubervilliers-654-1-115-108.w86-198.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2020-12-07 03:13:42 +0100 <koz_> (like, everything that came out of 'cabal build')
2020-12-07 03:13:56 +0100Axman6(~Axman6@pdpc/supporter/student/Axman6)
2020-12-07 03:13:56 +0100 <cheater> sure, one sec
2020-12-07 03:14:38 +0100 <cheater> https://hastebin.com/ovofafokib.php
2020-12-07 03:15:43 +0100 <koz_> Hmm, you might actually wanna report this to the accelerate folks. This isn't _your_ code blowing up.
2020-12-07 03:16:05 +0100 <koz_> I'm unsure if the accelerate folks even test on Windows to be honest.
2020-12-07 03:16:25 +0100thelounge7121(c1207eea@gateway/web/thelounge/ip.193.32.126.234) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2020-12-07 03:16:25 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net)
2020-12-07 03:16:29 +0100 <cheater> :(
2020-12-07 03:17:17 +0100SupaYoshi(~supayoshi@213-10-140-13.fixed.kpn.net)
2020-12-07 03:17:22 +0100foobarblob(188838c2@ip24-136-56-194.ga.at.cox.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 03:17:24 +0100xff0x_(~fox@2001:1a81:5262:300:a503:de77:83fc:9f21)
2020-12-07 03:17:59 +0100 <cheater> hmm
2020-12-07 03:18:12 +0100 <cheater> let me look at the accelerate package, maybe cabal is resolving to an old version
2020-12-07 03:20:37 +0100xff0x(~fox@83.236.23.112) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-07 03:21:16 +0100 <cheater> https://matrix.hackage.haskell.org/#/package/accelerate
2020-12-07 03:21:29 +0100 <cheater> says 1.3.0.0 doesn't build on ghc 8.10.1
2020-12-07 03:21:35 +0100 <cheater> but 1.2.0.1 does :)
2020-12-07 03:21:40 +0100 <cheater> let me try that :)
2020-12-07 03:22:16 +0100SupaYoshi(~supayoshi@213-10-140-13.fixed.kpn.net) (Quit: Goodbye!)
2020-12-07 03:23:22 +0100SupaYoshi(~supayoshi@213-10-140-13.fixed.kpn.net)
2020-12-07 03:23:45 +0100 <cheater> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... it's complaining about base version......
2020-12-07 03:24:51 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-07 03:24:51 +0100 <cheater> oh hackage matrix says "ok" when there's no install plan found :|
2020-12-07 03:25:01 +0100 <cheater> that's stupid
2020-12-07 03:25:45 +0100 <sm[m]> I agree
2020-12-07 03:26:01 +0100 <cheater> ok, so looks like using chocolatey i need to install an older version of ghc.
2020-12-07 03:26:04 +0100 <cheater> how would i do this?
2020-12-07 03:26:30 +0100 <cheater> can i have multiple versions :|
2020-12-07 03:26:33 +0100 <cheater> please tell me yes
2020-12-07 03:26:35 +0100 <cheater> oh god
2020-12-07 03:26:50 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Quit: Connection closed)
2020-12-07 03:26:54 +0100 <sm[m]> you can, easily, with stack. Don't know chocolatey, sorry
2020-12-07 03:27:13 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-07 03:27:14 +0100 <cheater> on windows?
2020-12-07 03:27:19 +0100 <sm[m]> yes
2020-12-07 03:27:46 +0100mbomba(~mbomba@bras-base-toroon2719w-grc-49-142-114-9-241.dsl.bell.ca)
2020-12-07 03:27:56 +0100 <sm[m]> though, keep in mind many ghc versions have bothersome issues on windows. You have to pick and choose. The latest point releases may be ok right now
2020-12-07 03:28:56 +0100 <cheater> i need one of the ones that say "OK" here:
2020-12-07 03:29:04 +0100 <cheater> https://matrix.hackage.haskell.org/#/package/accelerate
2020-12-07 03:29:15 +0100 <cheater> i think 8.6.5
2020-12-07 03:29:21 +0100 <cheater> does that have a bothersome issue?
2020-12-07 03:30:09 +0100 <sm[m]> well.. there are always windows issues, but I expect that one will be fine
2020-12-07 03:30:40 +0100 <sm[m]> with stack, you look at https://www.stackage.org for which resolver has the ghc you want, and build/install using that
2020-12-07 03:32:03 +0100 <sm[m]> eg: stack --resolver lts-14.27 install --dry-run accelerate-VERSION [extra packages it may ask for ...]
2020-12-07 03:32:38 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 03:33:19 +0100Stanley00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00)
2020-12-07 03:34:52 +0100 <hyiltiz> sm[m]: that commit diff, superficially, seems like a complexity explosion to take into account a design deficiency (original data structure not rich enough to represent the problem) to me
2020-12-07 03:35:16 +0100 <cheater> how do i find the latest resolver that includes accelerate?
2020-12-07 03:35:31 +0100 <cheater> when i google for "stackage accelerate" i get this https://www.stackage.org/lts-9.3/package/accelerate-1.0.0.0
2020-12-07 03:35:35 +0100 <cheater> which looks like garbage
2020-12-07 03:35:36 +0100 <koz_> cheater: stackage.org lists them.
2020-12-07 03:35:59 +0100 <cheater> koz_: no it doesn't
2020-12-07 03:36:03 +0100 <hyiltiz> i couldn't quite spot the cyclic reference but "well-written" tests should be able to catch cyclic references, no?
2020-12-07 03:36:06 +0100 <koz_> It seems it's not on there, not for recent ones at least.
2020-12-07 03:36:20 +0100 <koz_> You can have chocolatey install multiple GHC versions.
2020-12-07 03:36:36 +0100 <cheater> oh i can?
2020-12-07 03:36:38 +0100 <koz_> You can also specify GHC version when doing 'cabal new-configure' with the -w flag.
2020-12-07 03:36:39 +0100 <cheater> how would i do that?
2020-12-07 03:36:41 +0100 <koz_> Yep.
2020-12-07 03:36:45 +0100 <koz_> Just... request another version?
2020-12-07 03:36:53 +0100 <cheater> i've never used chocolatey tbh
2020-12-07 03:36:55 +0100 <koz_> When you use choco install, you can specify which version you want.
2020-12-07 03:37:02 +0100 <koz_> (there's a flag I think)
2020-12-07 03:37:06 +0100 <cheater> oh
2020-12-07 03:37:13 +0100 <koz_> It's been a while since I used it.
2020-12-07 03:37:54 +0100 <Axman6> PI'm running into a problem with conflicts between functional dependencies. I have a classs Foo msg hdr | msg -> hdr where ... and another Bar msg hdr | msg -> hdr where ...; Trying to use instance (Foo msg SomeHdr) => Bar msg SomeHdr where and instance (Foo msg ADistinctHdr) => Bar msg ADistinctHdr results in a fundep conflict between the two instances
2020-12-07 03:38:59 +0100 <sm[m]> hyiltiz: thanks for your comment. I'm glad you couldn't spot it either, it was between lines 211 and 212. Because of laziness and the length of time it was undetected, it was pretty hard to track down! https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/commit/69edf9003edd59a9f2556bd00969314a32635191 is the fix, simplifying a bit.
2020-12-07 03:39:39 +0100 <cheater> thanks koz_ that helps a lot
2020-12-07 03:39:57 +0100 <cheater> for ghc 8.6.5 which cabal version should i install? still 3.2.0.0 ?
2020-12-07 03:40:23 +0100 <sm[m]> hyiltiz: and you're right, I can add a functional test which would detect this in future, and I probably will, but of course that won't help prevent more of these
2020-12-07 03:40:24 +0100 <koz_> You can use any version that's more recent than... something way less than that.
2020-12-07 03:40:32 +0100 <cheater> thanks
2020-12-07 03:41:08 +0100 <cheater> koz_: hmm do i force choco to install multiple ghc versions?
2020-12-07 03:41:26 +0100 <koz_> cheater: I don't remember, sorry. I know that it _is_ possible, but I don't remember how.
2020-12-07 03:41:33 +0100 <koz_> (it's been like, nearly a year since I last touched it)
2020-12-07 03:42:03 +0100mbomba1(~mbomba@bras-base-toroon2719w-grc-53-142-114-5-26.dsl.bell.ca)
2020-12-07 03:42:40 +0100 <koz_> What happens when you do 'choco install ghc -version 8.6.5'?
2020-12-07 03:42:52 +0100guest1949419412(b5a84c82@181.168.76.130)
2020-12-07 03:43:11 +0100 <cheater> i was just pasting. it errors out
2020-12-07 03:43:21 +0100 <cheater> https://hastebin.com/ujofipulum.properties
2020-12-07 03:43:39 +0100 <cheater> this url.... https://hub.zhox.com/posts/introducing-haskell-dev/ says "Since this functionality is provided by the cabal 3.0+ package, you can use any GHC version (or even multiple by using the choco flag -m when installing GHC) and it will just work."
2020-12-07 03:43:45 +0100mbomba(~mbomba@bras-base-toroon2719w-grc-49-142-114-9-241.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 03:44:42 +0100 <koz_> cheater: try 'choco install ghc -version 8.6.5 --side-by-side'
2020-12-07 03:44:49 +0100 <cheater> yeah that's what i did. that's what -m is
2020-12-07 03:44:55 +0100 <cheater> trying it now. thank you
2020-12-07 03:44:56 +0100vonfry`(~user@216.127.175.164) ("ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)")
2020-12-07 03:45:01 +0100urek(~urek@179.187.232.25.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-07 03:45:16 +0100 <koz_> "PS C:\projects\cluster\cluster> choco install ghc --version 8.6.5" <-- no -m here
2020-12-07 03:45:46 +0100 <cheater> koz_: yeah, but see what i just said
2020-12-07 03:45:57 +0100 <cheater> right before you told me to use --side-by-side
2020-12-07 03:46:19 +0100 <sm[m]> cheater, sounds like you may not need stack but re your question: from that stackage package page, you can click "See all snapshots accelerate appears in" -> https://www.stackage.org/package/accelerate/snapshots
2020-12-07 03:46:47 +0100 <koz_> If you run that command I just gave, what happens?
2020-12-07 03:47:10 +0100 <cheater> it installed ghc 8.6.5
2020-12-07 03:47:22 +0100 <koz_> OK, cool.
2020-12-07 03:47:23 +0100 <cheater> but after this if i run ghc --version it still says 8.10.1
2020-12-07 03:47:32 +0100 <koz_> Yeah, because you have it default to this.
2020-12-07 03:47:42 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-12-07 03:47:45 +0100 <koz_> If you do 'get-command ghc-8.6.5' what do you see?
2020-12-07 03:47:45 +0100 <cheater> and if i type ghc- and press tab, it doesn't find 8.6.5, only 8.10.1.
2020-12-07 03:47:49 +0100 <cheater> 1 sec
2020-12-07 03:48:02 +0100 <cheater> not recognized.
2020-12-07 03:48:06 +0100 <koz_> OK, one moment.
2020-12-07 03:48:08 +0100fxg(~fxg@unaffiliated/fxg)
2020-12-07 03:48:17 +0100 <cheater> resterting ps helped
2020-12-07 03:48:21 +0100 <cheater> even though i did refreshenv
2020-12-07 03:48:29 +0100parsnip(sid147265@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ijryicdhhvmgitdg) ()
2020-12-07 03:48:35 +0100 <cheater> it's now being recognized
2020-12-07 03:48:42 +0100drincruz_(~adriancru@ool-44c748be.dyn.optonline.net)
2020-12-07 03:48:43 +0100 <cheater> so you said i could select the ghc version when using cabal?
2020-12-07 03:49:28 +0100 <koz_> Yep.
2020-12-07 03:49:35 +0100 <cheater> sorry, how would i do that?
2020-12-07 03:49:43 +0100 <cheater> google doesn't tell me
2020-12-07 03:49:44 +0100 <koz_> 'cabal configure -w ghc-8.6.5'
2020-12-07 03:49:50 +0100 <cheater> thank you!
2020-12-07 03:49:54 +0100 <koz_> Then 'cabal build' should use that one.
2020-12-07 03:49:56 +0100 <cheater> sm[m]: thanks a lot, i looked there
2020-12-07 03:51:14 +0100 <cheater> alright, this should work for accelerate 1.2.0.1 which should build... crossing my fingers
2020-12-07 03:51:16 +0100 <cheater> thanks a lot
2020-12-07 03:51:22 +0100 <sm[m]> (it shows that accelerate was last in stackage in lts-11.22, which was a couple of years ago.. not necessarily a problem, stack can still pull newer versions from hackage)
2020-12-07 03:53:27 +0100 <koz_> cheater: Let us know if it works.
2020-12-07 03:53:34 +0100star_cloud(~star_clou@ec2-34-220-44-120.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com)
2020-12-07 03:54:05 +0100 <cheater> it didn't!
2020-12-07 03:54:08 +0100 <cheater> one sec.
2020-12-07 03:54:39 +0100softwarm(4408f588@ip68-8-245-136.sd.sd.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2020-12-07 03:54:41 +0100 <cheater> https://hastebin.com/joduvatiwa.yaml
2020-12-07 03:55:06 +0100 <koz_> Your base version is too high for 8.6.
2020-12-07 03:55:21 +0100 <koz_> Base version and GHC version have to align closely.
2020-12-07 03:55:27 +0100 <cheater> shouldn't it install the correct base version?
2020-12-07 03:55:35 +0100guest1949419412(b5a84c82@181.168.76.130) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 03:55:42 +0100 <koz_> cheater: No, because it doesn't 'install' base.
2020-12-07 03:55:44 +0100 <koz_> Base comes with GHC.
2020-12-07 03:55:48 +0100 <cheater> the base version for 8.6.5 is 4.12.
2020-12-07 03:55:54 +0100 <koz_> But if your Cabal file spells an impossible version, it'll barf.
2020-12-07 03:56:09 +0100 <cheater> the base version for 8.6.5 is 4.12 and my cabal allows 4.12.
2020-12-07 03:56:11 +0100 <koz_> Did you do 'cabal new-configure'?
2020-12-07 03:56:29 +0100 <cheater> i deleted the full cabal project and started a new one using cabal init -w 8.6.5
2020-12-07 03:56:59 +0100 <cheater> sorry cabal init -w ghc-8.6.5
2020-12-07 03:57:16 +0100 <koz_> OK, is there a cabal.project.local file in there?
2020-12-07 03:57:19 +0100 <koz_> If so, what's in it?
2020-12-07 03:57:34 +0100 <cheater> no
2020-12-07 03:57:44 +0100 <koz_> Then it means that 'cabal init' doesn't set this up correctly.
2020-12-07 03:57:52 +0100 <koz_> This is why you gotta do 'cabal new-configure -w ghc-8.6.5'.
2020-12-07 03:57:53 +0100drbean(~drbean@TC210-63-209-18.static.apol.com.tw)
2020-12-07 03:58:05 +0100 <koz_> Because 'cabal init' will set the right bounds, but won't staple the right compiler.
2020-12-07 03:58:07 +0100 <cheater> why would it be wrong? the cabal file is correct. it selects the right version of base.
2020-12-07 03:58:17 +0100 <cheater> oh, how does the compiler get "stapled"?
2020-12-07 03:58:24 +0100 <cheater> using cabal.project.local ?
2020-12-07 03:58:29 +0100 <koz_> In the 'cabal.project.local' file you would have if you did what I said.
2020-12-07 03:58:53 +0100 <cheater> ok, now there's a cabal.project.local.
2020-12-07 03:58:53 +0100 <cheater> thanks
2020-12-07 03:58:57 +0100 <cheater> let me try again!
2020-12-07 03:58:59 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-07 03:59:52 +0100 <cheater> ok, it's building. let's see if accelerate builds this time!
2020-12-07 04:00:37 +0100 <cheater> also here's a weird thing i noticed... i created c:\projects\cluster\hello, went inside it, and did cabal init -w ghc-8.6.5 and it said "package name not specified" and then it created a full skeleton cabal project except for the .cabal file.
2020-12-07 04:00:45 +0100 <cheater> is "hello" some sort of magical name? that's so weir.d
2020-12-07 04:00:47 +0100 <cheater> weird.
2020-12-07 04:01:20 +0100 <koz_> I dunno about cabal init, I never use it.
2020-12-07 04:01:45 +0100 <cheater> i've never had this happen and i've made so many cabal packages in the past
2020-12-07 04:01:50 +0100 <cheater> this has to be a bug
2020-12-07 04:01:56 +0100fxg(~fxg@unaffiliated/fxg) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 04:03:10 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net)
2020-12-07 04:04:42 +0100 <koz_> So, did it build?
2020-12-07 04:05:00 +0100Gurkenglas(~Gurkengla@unaffiliated/gurkenglas) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-07 04:05:11 +0100shatriff(~vitaliish@176.52.219.10) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 04:05:37 +0100 <cheater> i'll know in a while!
2020-12-07 04:05:46 +0100shatriff(~vitaliish@176.52.219.10)
2020-12-07 04:05:56 +0100 <cheater> even if it builds, it'll probably still have some issues because i think i need to install cuda and other stuff to get /that/ to work
2020-12-07 04:06:20 +0100 <koz_> Yeah, but that's a future issue.
2020-12-07 04:06:27 +0100 <cheater> just preparing
2020-12-07 04:06:43 +0100 <cheater> as for now accelerate is still building, and it would have failed already on 8.10.1
2020-12-07 04:06:58 +0100 <cheater> seems like it might actually be working, yay!
2020-12-07 04:07:49 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-07 04:11:35 +0100Saukk(~Saukk@2001:998:ec:954:1c59:9bb5:b94c:3)
2020-12-07 04:12:06 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:406f:6a8d:2175:4183) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 04:12:18 +0100 <cheater> ok, it compiled!
2020-12-07 04:13:26 +0100 <cheater> thanks a lot koz_ and sm[m] !
2020-12-07 04:13:33 +0100 <koz_> No worries.
2020-12-07 04:13:35 +0100tv-(~tv@unaffiliated/tv-) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2020-12-07 04:13:37 +0100 <koz_> Best of luck.
2020-12-07 04:13:49 +0100 <cheater> so now i need to figure out cuda.
2020-12-07 04:13:56 +0100tv-(~tv@unaffiliated/tv-)
2020-12-07 04:14:24 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net)
2020-12-07 04:16:04 +0100 <cheater> hmm... so...
2020-12-07 04:16:16 +0100olligobber(~olligobbe@unaffiliated/olligobber) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-12-07 04:16:20 +0100 <cheater> this thing says "See the Haddock documentation for additional information related to using this backend." https://hackage.haskell.org/package/accelerate-cuda
2020-12-07 04:16:28 +0100 <cheater> but there's no haddock documentation? :|
2020-12-07 04:16:29 +0100Jeanne-Kamikaze(~Jeanne-Ka@66.115.189.207) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-12-07 04:17:04 +0100 <koz_> accelerate-cuda is deprecated anyhow.
2020-12-07 04:17:16 +0100 <koz_> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/accelerate-llvm-ptx
2020-12-07 04:17:19 +0100 <koz_> This is what you want.
2020-12-07 04:17:45 +0100 <cheater> ohh ok thanks
2020-12-07 04:17:53 +0100 <cheater> i wouldn't have known :D
2020-12-07 04:18:11 +0100 <cheater> wait, does llvm work on windows?
2020-12-07 04:18:17 +0100 <koz_> Yeah, why not?
2020-12-07 04:18:38 +0100 <koz_> Microsoft's C++ compiler basically stole the entire Clang front-end to be C++-11 (and later) compliant.
2020-12-07 04:19:36 +0100 <koz_> https://chocolatey.org/packages/llvm
2020-12-07 04:20:50 +0100 <cheater> hmm ok right
2020-12-07 04:22:33 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:406f:6a8d:2175:4183)
2020-12-07 04:23:29 +0100falafel_(~falafel@pool-108-31-243-192.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2020-12-07 04:23:39 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 04:25:00 +0100 <Squarism> I have a Traversal that i want to use with "over". over :: ASetter s t a b -> (a -> b) -> s -> t . Turns out my "(a -> b)" is actually over :: (a -> m b) . Lets call that "f" So I wonder if using the same Traversal I could somehow get a function looking like this over :: ASetter s t a b -> (a -> m b) -> s -> m t?
2020-12-07 04:25:29 +0100 <Squarism> correction
2020-12-07 04:25:36 +0100 <Squarism> Turns out my "(a -> b)" is actually (a -> m b)
2020-12-07 04:26:15 +0100 <koz_> traverseOf?
2020-12-07 04:26:40 +0100shatriff(~vitaliish@176.52.219.10) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-07 04:27:13 +0100 <iqubic> traverseOf will work here.
2020-12-07 04:27:32 +0100shatriff(~vitaliish@176.52.219.10)
2020-12-07 04:27:50 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-07 04:27:56 +0100 <Squarism> thanks. ill try
2020-12-07 04:31:21 +0100lagothrixGuest66214
2020-12-07 04:31:21 +0100xirhtogal(~lagothrix@unaffiliated/lagothrix)
2020-12-07 04:31:21 +0100Guest66214(~lagothrix@unaffiliated/lagothrix) (Killed (hitchcock.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
2020-12-07 04:31:21 +0100xirhtogallagothrix
2020-12-07 04:31:25 +0100theDon(~td@94.134.91.74) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 04:31:48 +0100 <Squarism> so just replace "over" with traverseOf?
2020-12-07 04:31:48 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net)
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2020-12-07 04:33:27 +0100theDon(~td@muedsl-82-207-238-155.citykom.de)
2020-12-07 04:34:03 +0100rayyyy(~nanoz@gateway/tor-sasl/nanoz) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 04:35:21 +0100 <Axman6> % :t traverseOf
2020-12-07 04:35:21 +0100 <yahb> Axman6: LensLike f s t a b -> (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
2020-12-07 04:35:40 +0100 <iqubic> Yeah, I think that's all you need to do.
2020-12-07 04:35:52 +0100 <Axman6> % :t traverseOf `asAppliedTo` (undefined :: a -> IO b)
2020-12-07 04:35:52 +0100 <yahb> Axman6: ; <interactive>:1:12: error: Variable not in scope: asAppliedTo :: (LensLike f0 s0 t0 a0 b0 -> (a0 -> f0 b0) -> s0 -> f0 t0) -> (a1 -> IO b1) -> t
2020-12-07 04:36:17 +0100 <iqubic> :t asAppliedTo
2020-12-07 04:36:18 +0100 <lambdabot> (a -> b) -> a -> a -> b
2020-12-07 04:36:20 +0100 <Axman6> % let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo = const
2020-12-07 04:36:20 +0100 <yahb> Axman6:
2020-12-07 04:36:22 +0100 <Axman6> % :t traverseOf `asAppliedTo` (undefined :: a -> IO b)
2020-12-07 04:36:23 +0100 <yahb> Axman6: ; <interactive>:1:27: error:; * Couldn't match type `IO b0' with `s -> f t'; Expected type: LensLike f s t a b; Actual type: (a -> f b) -> IO b0; * In the second argument of `asAppliedTo', namely `(undefined :: a -> IO b)'; In the expression: traverseOf `asAppliedTo` (undefined :: a -> IO b)
2020-12-07 04:36:31 +0100 <Axman6> % :t traverseOf each `asAppliedTo` (undefined :: a -> IO b)
2020-12-07 04:36:31 +0100 <yahb> Axman6: Each s t a b => (a -> IO b) -> s -> IO t
2020-12-07 04:36:41 +0100 <iqubic> Yeah, that will work.
2020-12-07 04:36:50 +0100 <Axman6> who runs yahb?
2020-12-07 04:37:00 +0100 <iqubic> Not sure.
2020-12-07 04:37:09 +0100 <iqubic> yahb: % ls
2020-12-07 04:37:28 +0100 <iqubic> yahb: % :q
2020-12-07 04:37:43 +0100 <iqubic> Oh, you can't kill yahb that way.
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2020-12-07 04:41:24 +0100justsomeguy(~justsomeg@unaffiliated/--/x-3805311)
2020-12-07 04:43:25 +0100a3Dman(~3Dman@unaffiliated/a3dman)
2020-12-07 04:44:44 +0100 <Squarism> Great, that worked out well
2020-12-07 04:45:30 +0100vicfred(~vicfred@unaffiliated/vicfred) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-12-07 04:45:32 +0100rayyyy(~nanoz@gateway/tor-sasl/nanoz)
2020-12-07 04:51:52 +0100 <Squarism> can you turn a value of a type into Proxy of the same type?
2020-12-07 04:53:10 +0100_xor(~xor@74.215.46.133) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-07 04:54:01 +0100 <int-e> proxy :: a -> Proxy a; proxy _ = Proxy
2020-12-07 04:55:02 +0100 <int-e> (or use type signatures, which may well be the standard approach)
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2020-12-07 04:55:44 +0100mbomba(~mbomba@bras-base-toroon2719w-grc-53-142-114-5-26.dsl.bell.ca)
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2020-12-07 04:57:56 +0100 <Squarism> int-e, thanks
2020-12-07 04:59:13 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-07 04:59:23 +0100 <c_wraith> :t pure :: a -> Proxy a
2020-12-07 04:59:25 +0100 <lambdabot> a -> Proxy a
2020-12-07 05:00:06 +0100 <int-e> oh
2020-12-07 05:00:09 +0100 <int-e> c_wraith: thanks
2020-12-07 05:00:17 +0100 <c_wraith> it's sneaky
2020-12-07 05:01:54 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-12-07 05:02:37 +0100 <int-e> I like sneaky things, but sometimes they come as a surprise :)
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2020-12-07 05:21:55 +0100 <cheater> koz_: hey, still around?
2020-12-07 05:22:37 +0100 <cheater> so accelerate-llvm-ptx requires accelerate 1.3.*, but accelerate 1.3.0.0 does not build on any ghc according to matrix? so how do i get accelerate-llvm-ptx?
2020-12-07 05:22:55 +0100falafel__falafel
2020-12-07 05:23:05 +0100 <cheater> ohhh wait i was looking at the wrong version. too tired.
2020-12-07 05:23:30 +0100 <cheater> hi int-e
2020-12-07 05:23:39 +0100 <cheater> have you ever used accelerate on cuda?
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2020-12-07 05:29:17 +0100 <hyiltiz> sm[m]: if you can specify all the end points (of a acyclic graph) with tests, calling them should be able to point out cyclic dependency, no? Ideally, static code analysis should be able to catch this, once you tell it the end points.
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2020-12-07 05:37:21 +0100 <sm[m]> hyiltiz: not sure how that works in practice, I feel it's hard to ensure full test coverage of all code paths, all usage patterns etc. or even to know how much you have covered. Though, most of the time testing most of it is good enough.
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2020-12-07 06:43:11 +0100 <Athas> cheater: I have! Although I hope you don't mean the obsolete accelerate-cuda backend?
2020-12-07 06:43:34 +0100 <cheater> Athas: i'm trying to get accelerate-llvm-ptx to work right now
2020-12-07 06:43:55 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-07 06:45:16 +0100 <Athas> My experience is that the biggest trouble by far is getting the right version of LLVM installed.
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2020-12-07 06:48:28 +0100 <cheater> that's not exactly the problem, my problem right now is to get llvm compiled
2020-12-07 06:48:51 +0100 <cheater> currently i'm stuck on getting cl.exe
2020-12-07 06:48:55 +0100 <cheater> i don't know how to get it
2020-12-07 06:48:58 +0100Moscos(~Moscos@122.54.107.175)
2020-12-07 06:49:08 +0100 <Athas> Oh, I have no idea how to do this on Windows.
2020-12-07 06:49:58 +0100 <Athas> The Windows instructions for Accelerate start with "Oh no!". Always a good sign.
2020-12-07 06:51:48 +0100 <cheater> huh?
2020-12-07 06:51:52 +0100 <cheater> where have you seen that?
2020-12-07 06:51:56 +0100 <Athas> https://www.acceleratehs.org/get-started/windows
2020-12-07 06:52:36 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-12-07 06:53:07 +0100 <int-e> "we've sent ahead scouts, but so far, nobody has returned"
2020-12-07 06:53:17 +0100AVK(1b741090@27.116.16.144)
2020-12-07 06:53:36 +0100 <cheater> "We currently do not have any Windows machines available to test Accelerate on" man what sort of bs is that.
2020-12-07 06:53:42 +0100 <cheater> windows is like $10.
2020-12-07 06:53:53 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-07 06:54:08 +0100 <int-e> but windows is a huge moral concession
2020-12-07 06:54:44 +0100Tops2(~Tobias@dyndsl-095-033-088-049.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
2020-12-07 06:55:03 +0100 <int-e> but it's probably more about justifying the time spent figuring things out when you don't have a use for it yourself
2020-12-07 06:56:11 +0100 <int-e> https://www.acceleratehs.org/get-started/windows
2020-12-07 06:56:14 +0100 <int-e> uhm.
2020-12-07 06:56:28 +0100 <int-e> I wanted this link: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/direct3d12/gpu-cuda-in-wsl
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2020-12-07 07:03:18 +0100 <cheater> a bsd licensed project isn't going to guilt me over moral concessions.
2020-12-07 07:04:22 +0100 <int-e> good non sequitur
2020-12-07 07:04:45 +0100 <cheater> not really, you can't ride the high horse if all you have is a donkey
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2020-12-07 07:21:49 +0100 <Axman6> (Asking again becaus eI didn't seem to het any answers earlier) I'm running into a problem with conflicts between functional dependencies. I have a classs Foo msg hdr | msg -> hdr where ... and another Bar msg hdr | msg -> hdr where ...; Trying to use instance (Foo msg SomeHdr) => Bar msg SomeHdr where and instance (Foo msg ADistinctHdr) => Bar msg ADistinctHdr results in a fundep conflict between the two instances
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2020-12-07 08:05:20 +0100 <koz_> cheater: I sympathise, but cannot assist. I can work (kinda sorta) Haskell stuff on Windows, but nothing beyond that.
2020-12-07 08:05:26 +0100toorevitimirp(~tooreviti@117.182.181.85)
2020-12-07 08:05:54 +0100 <cheater> gotcha
2020-12-07 08:05:58 +0100 <koz_> cheater: What is cl.exe?
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2020-12-07 08:58:26 +0100 <zincy__> Evening koz_
2020-12-07 08:58:34 +0100 <koz_> zincy__: Yo.
2020-12-07 08:58:51 +0100 <zincy__> How are things
2020-12-07 08:59:20 +0100 <zincy__> Question, Do you separate your IO code from your non IO stuff generally?
2020-12-07 08:59:32 +0100Varis(~Tadas@unaffiliated/varis) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 08:59:42 +0100 <zincy__> I have been reflecting on this and don't think it comes down to purity since IO is pure but to do with determinism.
2020-12-07 08:59:58 +0100 <zincy__> Yes IO is is deterministic on evaluation but not on execution.
2020-12-07 09:00:02 +0100 <jle`> hm, a lot of my problems have to do with manipulating data
2020-12-07 09:00:11 +0100 <jle`> so a lot of times the thought of IO doesn't even come up
2020-12-07 09:00:28 +0100 <jle`> so i usually don't consciously separate my IO code from no IO code, it just happens naturally i guess
2020-12-07 09:00:31 +0100 <jle`> but maybe this was a learned habit
2020-12-07 09:00:32 +0100 <zincy__> Yeah this may be a bigger concern for building a web server
2020-12-07 09:01:05 +0100 <jle`> for building a web server you're still going to have functions that manipulate data
2020-12-07 09:01:24 +0100 <jle`> so i don't think i have ever really consciously made a choice in recent memory
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2020-12-07 09:02:05 +0100 <jle`> if i'm writing a function that does IO i do IO
2020-12-07 09:02:17 +0100 <jle`> if i am writing a function that manipulates data and doesn't involve IO, the thought of IO doesn't really come up
2020-12-07 09:02:29 +0100 <jle`> to me it's kind of like, "do you separate your Int code from non Int stuff generally?"
2020-12-07 09:02:37 +0100 <jle`> i mean yeah...my code that involves Int's, i will use Int
2020-12-07 09:02:39 +0100 <zincy__> Right but if you have a function that does IO do you try and extract the pure logic out of that?
2020-12-07 09:02:48 +0100 <jle`> but my code that has nothing to do with Int, i would not reach for Int
2020-12-07 09:03:10 +0100 <zincy__> haha "to me it's kind of like, "do you separate your Int code from non Int stuff generally?""
2020-12-07 09:03:27 +0100 <jle`> zincy__: hm, on a higher level it's more about separating out functionality into chunks that are manageable to write
2020-12-07 09:03:28 +0100polyphem(~p0lyph3m@2a02:810d:640:776c:76d7:55f6:f85b:c889) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-07 09:03:33 +0100 <zincy__> But IO is harder to test
2020-12-07 09:03:43 +0100 <jle`> but if it's manageable to write pure logic within an IO function, i don't consciously try to separate it out
2020-12-07 09:04:01 +0100_linker_(~linker@2a02:a31a:a041:9a80:c431:6040:918c:6466)
2020-12-07 09:04:11 +0100 <jle`> yeah, IO is harder to test, and there's no way getting around that for actual IO
2020-12-07 09:04:25 +0100 <jle`> but if i decide to want to test a specific part of it, i can try to pull it out to something easier to test
2020-12-07 09:04:30 +0100 <jle`> sometimes that thing happens to be pure, sometimes it doesn't
2020-12-07 09:04:43 +0100 <zincy__> Yeah
2020-12-07 09:05:18 +0100 <zincy__> Okay so maybe I have to swallow the pill that without context this is an arbritrary thing to strive for.
2020-12-07 09:05:38 +0100 <zincy__> jle`: You did a blog post on differentiable programming right?
2020-12-07 09:05:42 +0100 <zincy__> Very interesting.
2020-12-07 09:05:43 +0100 <jle`> idk i feel like my point was that i don't consciously strive for it
2020-12-07 09:05:48 +0100 <zincy__> Yeah
2020-12-07 09:05:49 +0100 <jle`> i did, a few years back :)
2020-12-07 09:06:11 +0100 <jle`> but i think a part of it does come down to more experience in coding haskell
2020-12-07 09:06:25 +0100 <jle`> for example if you feel in your bones that this is oging to be a thing you want to test separately, then you would separate it out
2020-12-07 09:06:32 +0100 <jle`> but i guess even in that case, whether or not that is IO isn't a part of the picture
2020-12-07 09:06:36 +0100 <jle`> hm...ignore that point, then heh
2020-12-07 09:07:02 +0100danvet(~Daniel@2a02:168:57f4:0:efd0:b9e5:5ae6:c2fa)
2020-12-07 09:07:10 +0100 <jle`> but maybe over time you will find that more often than not, you will be testing out non-io stuff
2020-12-07 09:07:23 +0100 <jle`> it's sort of just an evolution of intuition i guess
2020-12-07 09:07:48 +0100britva(~britva@2a02:aa13:7240:2980:6477:78c0:db0c:39cf)
2020-12-07 09:07:50 +0100 <jle`> so when people say "you should separate out IO from non-IO", what they are really saying is that in their experience, the things they end up beneffiting from separating out often falls out along IO non-IO lines
2020-12-07 09:08:00 +0100 <jle`> but i think the benefit isn't from that distinction in and of itself
2020-12-07 09:08:48 +0100 <zincy__> Ah I see
2020-12-07 09:09:15 +0100 <zincy__> So you are hearing about the outcome not the rationale
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2020-12-07 09:10:48 +0100 <jle`> i think that's how i would interpret it, yeah
2020-12-07 09:10:52 +0100 <jle`> but that's just my own experience :)
2020-12-07 09:11:41 +0100 <zincy__> Thanks!
2020-12-07 09:11:51 +0100britva(~britva@2a02:aa13:7240:2980:6477:78c0:db0c:39cf) (Client Quit)
2020-12-07 09:12:39 +0100 <hyiltiz> are you guys not talking about whether writing a `yell :: IO () -> IO ()` as `interact . toUpper` is a better idea?
2020-12-07 09:12:42 +0100Varis(~Tadas@unaffiliated/varis)
2020-12-07 09:12:43 +0100rayyyy(~nanoz@gateway/tor-sasl/nanoz) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 09:13:07 +0100 <hyiltiz> a typical case where IO and logic splits "naturally"
2020-12-07 09:13:48 +0100 <idnar> at the end of the day, "do X instead of Y" is almost always an oversimplification; you need to drill down to what X and Y make easier/harder
2020-12-07 09:14:01 +0100 <dminuoso> 09:11:51 jle` | [08:07:23] it's sort of just an evolution of intuition i guess
2020-12-07 09:14:16 +0100 <dminuoso> This is the relevant quote I think.
2020-12-07 09:14:37 +0100Cthalupa(~cthulhu@47.186.47.75) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-07 09:14:52 +0100rkrishnan_(~rkrishnan@rkrishnan.org)
2020-12-07 09:15:14 +0100Cthalupa(~cthulhu@47.186.47.75)
2020-12-07 09:15:21 +0100 <dminuoso> In addition to talking about "IO" and "non-IO" we also have this hybrid ST (or MonadPrim polymorphic code)
2020-12-07 09:15:54 +0100styledash6(~styledash@157.230.173.136)
2020-12-07 09:15:56 +0100 <dminuoso> It's hard to give an adequate flow chart that uniquely tells you when to do what, if you just experient over time you will build up an intuition.
2020-12-07 09:16:01 +0100vodkaInferno(~wormphleg@104.131.156.184)
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2020-12-07 09:16:19 +0100 <dminuoso> Ah heh. It's PrimMonad, not MonadPrim.
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2020-12-07 09:26:10 +0100 <incertia> eventually you will embrace the monad
2020-12-07 09:26:14 +0100 <incertia> and just write everything in mtl
2020-12-07 09:27:05 +0100 <incertia> and then delimited continuations gets merged into ghc and everyone starts using eff or something
2020-12-07 09:27:30 +0100 <suzu_> embrace the monad
2020-12-07 09:28:18 +0100 <incertia> taste the monad
2020-12-07 09:28:22 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net)
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2020-12-07 09:28:31 +0100 <suzu_> become the monad
2020-12-07 09:28:37 +0100 <incertia> touch the monad
2020-12-07 09:28:38 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net)
2020-12-07 09:28:40 +0100 <incertia> but do not touch the gonad
2020-12-07 09:30:01 +0100Uniaikawraps themselves in a tortilla
2020-12-07 09:30:05 +0100 <Uniaika> I HAVE BECOME THE MONAD
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2020-12-07 09:30:20 +0100 <int-e> Uniaika: you know you'll never get out of that, right?
2020-12-07 09:30:27 +0100 <Uniaika> :P
2020-12-07 09:30:33 +0100 <Uniaika> hi int-e
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2020-12-07 09:31:00 +0100 <mbomba> Ah yes, the infamous burrito monad.
2020-12-07 09:31:18 +0100gxt(~gxt@gateway/tor-sasl/gxt)
2020-12-07 09:31:25 +0100 <dminuoso> int-e: That's why we have `class (Monad m, Comonad m) => Bimonad m`
2020-12-07 09:32:11 +0100 <incertia> im just waiting for aoc to release a problem where i can do some weird lens/fp bullshit
2020-12-07 09:32:36 +0100 <suzu_> meh you can always do that
2020-12-07 09:32:46 +0100 <incertia> i probably love lens more than i love my girlfriend
2020-12-07 09:32:59 +0100 <incertia> :thinking:
2020-12-07 09:33:00 +0100 <suzu_> lens makes my brain melt
2020-12-07 09:33:08 +0100mbomba(~mbomba@bras-base-toroon2719w-grc-53-142-114-5-26.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2020-12-07 09:33:09 +0100 <suzu_> i try to avoid anything beyond simple traversals
2020-12-07 09:33:13 +0100 <suzu_> or foldables
2020-12-07 09:33:30 +0100 <suzu_> all that moon-abstraction shit is cool but unproductive
2020-12-07 09:33:36 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net)
2020-12-07 09:33:40 +0100 <int-e> dminuoso: I never got into comonads.
2020-12-07 09:33:42 +0100 <dminuoso> suzu_: Give `optics` a try! :)
2020-12-07 09:33:55 +0100 <suzu_> i dont know much about optiocs
2020-12-07 09:33:55 +0100 <int-e> (Yay, pun.)
2020-12-07 09:33:56 +0100 <dminuoso> int-e: Oh it was just a joke..
2020-12-07 09:34:01 +0100 <dminuoso> Oh
2020-12-07 09:34:03 +0100 <suzu_> what does it do different from lens?
2020-12-07 09:34:03 +0100 <dminuoso> haha
2020-12-07 09:34:14 +0100 <int-e> (But also true.)
2020-12-07 09:34:16 +0100 <dminuoso> suzu_: It hides the implementation of optics behind newtypes.
2020-12-07 09:34:31 +0100 <suzu_> ah so no more Getter Setter Better Wetter leaking all over the types?
2020-12-07 09:34:33 +0100 <dminuoso> And it uses type families and custom type errors to give precise error messages, etc
2020-12-07 09:34:43 +0100 <dminuoso> Well, you still have those, but in a way that makes perfect sense.
2020-12-07 09:34:50 +0100 <suzu_> thats sorta neat
2020-12-07 09:34:54 +0100 <dminuoso> For instance
2020-12-07 09:35:03 +0100Yumasi(~guillaume@2a01:e0a:5cb:4430:e1ea:8f38:f518:4e69)
2020-12-07 09:35:33 +0100 <dminuoso> % "foobar" ^. each
2020-12-07 09:35:33 +0100 <yahb> dminuoso: ; <interactive>:71:13: error:; * No instance for (Monoid Char) arising from a use of `each'; * In the second argument of `(^.)', namely `each'; In the expression: "foobar" ^. each; In an equation for `it': it = "foobar" ^. each
2020-12-07 09:35:41 +0100 <dminuoso> In `optics` you get:
2020-12-07 09:35:42 +0100 <dminuoso> • A_Traversal cannot be used as A_Getter
2020-12-07 09:36:00 +0100 <suzu_> that first error is awful
2020-12-07 09:36:02 +0100 <suzu_> hm nice
2020-12-07 09:36:16 +0100 <incertia> lens does have some very nasty error messages
2020-12-07 09:36:19 +0100 <int-e> dminuoso: The thing is, I ask about the usefulness of comonads, somebody mentions an adjoint functor and then I tune out.
2020-12-07 09:36:26 +0100 <suzu_> i also just dont find lens productive
2020-12-07 09:36:27 +0100ironmarx(~ironmarx@178.239.168.171) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 09:36:30 +0100shangxiao(~davids@101.181.45.166)
2020-12-07 09:36:33 +0100 <suzu_> that extends to a lot of haskell
2020-12-07 09:36:42 +0100 <suzu_> there's a lot of shiny stuff that's cool but often not directly helpful
2020-12-07 09:36:43 +0100 <incertia> but it's the price to pay to have transparent representation i guess
2020-12-07 09:36:45 +0100 <dminuoso> int-e: cellular automatons is a wonderful example of simple comonadic code. say conways game of life
2020-12-07 09:36:50 +0100 <dminuoso> or image filters
2020-12-07 09:37:19 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 09:37:48 +0100 <dminuoso> suzu_: `optics` is also generally safer and doesn't admit some of the "automatically does unexpected things"
2020-12-07 09:37:51 +0100 <dminuoso> For example..
2020-12-07 09:38:02 +0100 <dminuoso> % ["foo", "bar", "quux"] ^. each
2020-12-07 09:38:02 +0100 <yahb> dminuoso: "foobarquux"
2020-12-07 09:38:20 +0100 <dminuoso> optics would just fail with the above error, because this behavior is likely unexpected
2020-12-07 09:38:30 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> What was the expected behavior?
2020-12-07 09:38:34 +0100 <dminuoso> If you don't have a monoid instance, you get the illegible error above, and if you do it hides a potential bug
2020-12-07 09:39:24 +0100 <dminuoso> MarcelineVQ: view takes a getter, and a getter is a read-only optic that targets a *single* value
2020-12-07 09:39:36 +0100 <incertia> each is a traversal which can only be viewed if you have monoid
2020-12-07 09:39:37 +0100 <dminuoso> you can pass it `each` and it works somehow.
2020-12-07 09:39:55 +0100 <dminuoso> (it works because it mappends all the targets together, and then uses that as the getter target)
2020-12-07 09:40:01 +0100 <dminuoso> perhaps its what you meant, perhaps its not.
2020-12-07 09:40:21 +0100livvy(~livvy@gateway/tor-sasl/livvy)
2020-12-07 09:40:34 +0100 <dminuoso> In optics you'd have to use `foldOf` to make that choice explicit
2020-12-07 09:40:48 +0100mputz(~Thunderbi@dslb-088-064-063-125.088.064.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
2020-12-07 09:40:58 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net)
2020-12-07 09:41:13 +0100 <incertia> % ([1..5] :: Int) ^. each
2020-12-07 09:41:13 +0100 <yahb> incertia: ; <interactive>:73:2: error:; * Couldn't match expected type `Int' with actual type `[a0]'; * In the first argument of `(^.)', namely `([1 .. 5] :: Int)'; In the expression: ([1 .. 5] :: Int) ^. each; In an equation for `it': it = ([1 .. 5] :: Int) ^. each
2020-12-07 09:41:24 +0100 <incertia> oops
2020-12-07 09:41:32 +0100 <dminuoso> % ([1..5] :: [Product Int]) ^. each
2020-12-07 09:41:33 +0100 <yahb> dminuoso: ; <interactive>:74:2: error:; * No instance for (Enum (Product Int)) arising from the arithmetic sequence `1 .. 5'; * In the first argument of `(^.)', namely `([1 .. 5] :: [Product Int])'; In the expression: ([1 .. 5] :: [Product Int]) ^. each; In an equation for `it': it = ([1 .. 5] :: [Product Int]) ^. each
2020-12-07 09:41:38 +0100 <incertia> % ([1..5] :: [Int]) ^. each
2020-12-07 09:41:39 +0100 <yahb> incertia: ; <interactive>:75:22: error:; * No instance for (Monoid Int) arising from a use of `each'; * In the second argument of `(^.)', namely `each'; In the expression: ([1 .. 5] :: [Int]) ^. each; In an equation for `it': it = ([1 .. 5] :: [Int]) ^. each
2020-12-07 09:41:47 +0100 <dminuoso> oh
2020-12-07 09:41:50 +0100 <dminuoso> (Enum (Product Int))
2020-12-07 09:41:51 +0100 <incertia> that's view requiring Monoid
2020-12-07 09:41:53 +0100 <dminuoso> That seems like a missing instance
2020-12-07 09:42:07 +0100 <dminuoso> We should have `Enum a => Enum (Product a)`
2020-12-07 09:42:28 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 09:42:59 +0100 <incertia> same for Sum
2020-12-07 09:43:14 +0100 <dminuoso> MarcelineVQ: The danger here is that through composition it might not be obvious that you "accidentally" build a traversal, so when you then `view` through it and the target has a monoid instance, it just mashes things together. I'd much rather view fails and requires me to fold explicit
2020-12-07 09:43:24 +0100 <int-e> dminuoso: I guess the fundamental monad fallacy also applies to comonads... the common structure doesn't convey any meaning; the concrete instances are where the real power comes from.
2020-12-07 09:43:44 +0100 <dminuoso> int-e: In case of comonad actually it's _very_ limited to things having a notion of "neighborhood"
2020-12-07 09:43:54 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net)
2020-12-07 09:44:03 +0100 <dminuoso> Beyond Costate/Store you dont have any really interesting comonads for some reason.
2020-12-07 09:44:10 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> (Monad m, Comonad m) => Interpret m
2020-12-07 09:44:45 +0100 <dminuoso> (Or say, NonEmpty/Tree which can be thought of as special cases of Costate/Store)
2020-12-07 09:46:24 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 09:46:33 +0100 <dminuoso> The largest code base that uses Comonad interface is `lens` I guess
2020-12-07 09:47:40 +0100 <int-e> . o O ( lens is in a category of its own )
2020-12-07 09:48:28 +0100 <dminuoso> And that largely dances around various takes of Store and Bazaar
2020-12-07 09:48:39 +0100 <int-e> bizarre
2020-12-07 09:48:50 +0100 <int-e> Sorry, I should probably stop.
2020-12-07 09:49:01 +0100 <dminuoso> (The saying "lenses are coalbgras of the costate comonad" is quite funny and yet true)
2020-12-07 09:49:32 +0100 <dminuoso> Although I think the word "comonad" was added just for fun and alliteration.
2020-12-07 09:50:23 +0100 <dminuoso> It all doesnt apply to `optics` though since that's all profunctor based, which is also nice @suzu since it lets you talk about AffineTraversals.
2020-12-07 09:50:32 +0100 <dminuoso> (Or AffineFolds)
2020-12-07 09:51:56 +0100fendor(~fendor@77.119.131.148.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2020-12-07 09:52:27 +0100chele(~chele@ip5b416ea2.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2020-12-07 09:54:25 +0100 <idnar> :t (^.) :: s -> Getting a s a -> a
2020-12-07 09:54:27 +0100 <lambdabot> s -> Getting a s a -> a
2020-12-07 09:54:41 +0100 <idnar> :t (^.) :: s -> Getter s a -> a
2020-12-07 09:54:42 +0100 <lambdabot> s -> Getter s a -> a
2020-12-07 09:55:45 +0100 <dminuoso> it will just "do the right thing".
2020-12-07 09:55:49 +0100 <dminuoso> :>
2020-12-07 09:56:24 +0100 <idnar> % ((^.) :: s -> Getter s a -> a) ["foo", "bar", "quux"] each
2020-12-07 09:56:25 +0100 <yahb> idnar: ; <interactive>:80:55: error:; * Could not deduce (Applicative f) arising from a use of `each'; from the context: (Contravariant f, Functor f); bound by a type expected by the context:; Getter [[Char]] [Char]; at <interactive>:80:55-58; Possible fix:; add (Applicative f) to the context of; a type expected by the context:; Gette
2020-12-07 09:57:35 +0100 <idnar> so that would be similar to the optics version I think
2020-12-07 09:58:06 +0100 <dminuoso> Yeah
2020-12-07 09:58:16 +0100 <dminuoso> Well not quite
2020-12-07 09:58:22 +0100mounty(~mounty@210.1.196.133)
2020-12-07 09:58:41 +0100 <dminuoso> In optics it's something in between where the optic can gracefully degrade to a Getter
2020-12-07 09:59:10 +0100 <dminuoso> Or.. let me think
2020-12-07 09:59:19 +0100fendor(~fendor@77.119.131.148.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 09:59:27 +0100sQVe(~sQVe@unaffiliated/sqve)
2020-12-07 10:00:33 +0100 <dminuoso> % (1,2) ^. indexing (_1)
2020-12-07 10:00:33 +0100 <yahb> dminuoso: 1
2020-12-07 10:01:02 +0100 <dminuoso> % ((^.) :: s -> Getter s a -> a) (1,2) (indexing (_1))
2020-12-07 10:01:02 +0100 <yahb> dminuoso: 1
2020-12-07 10:01:09 +0100 <dminuoso> Ah interesting, so this works after all
2020-12-07 10:01:55 +0100 <dminuoso> idnar: I guess my beef remains, it's just very hard to know when something gracefully degrades, or it changes behavior along the way (like with Getting).
2020-12-07 10:02:23 +0100livvy(~livvy@gateway/tor-sasl/livvy) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 10:02:34 +0100 <dminuoso> You have to know all the representations of various optics, and how they are elimiated (that is what particular choices of `f` are they called with), and then play constraint resolution in your head
2020-12-07 10:02:55 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@unaffiliated/cfricke)
2020-12-07 10:03:12 +0100 <dminuoso> If you're smart and know the library inside out, that works. If you dont mind being forced to learn how lens works exactly, it's a great choice too
2020-12-07 10:03:42 +0100 <idnar> dminuoso: yeah, it's harder to understand the types (nevermind the type errors), but you don't need to convert as often
2020-12-07 10:04:13 +0100da39a3ee5e6b4b0d(~da39a3ee5@2403:6200:8876:a9cd:5081:c991:1e35:d185) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2020-12-07 10:04:31 +0100 <dminuoso> as often as opposed to what?
2020-12-07 10:04:35 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net)
2020-12-07 10:05:37 +0100 <idnar> dminuoso: as opposed to optics
2020-12-07 10:06:05 +0100 <dminuoso> Mmm. Im not entirely sure what you mean. Where do you feel you need to convert often?
2020-12-07 10:07:18 +0100 <dminuoso> Unless I wrote polymorphic code (say code that works with any A_Traversal), I haven't needed to convert at all.
2020-12-07 10:07:24 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@node-1433.pool-125-26.dynamic.totinternet.net) (Client Quit)
2020-12-07 10:07:30 +0100 <dminuoso> (Because the optic conversions happens in elimiation)
2020-12-07 10:08:11 +0100dftxbs3e(~dftxbs3e@unaffiliated/dftxbs3e) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-07 10:08:31 +0100 <idnar> I don't think you have to do it all that often, it's just the trade-off; in particular, you can export lens-style optics without depending on lens
2020-12-07 10:09:11 +0100 <dminuoso> Arguably optics-core is a very light dependency though (and unlike microlens you do get prisms and isos!)
2020-12-07 10:10:45 +0100 <idnar> from what I can see, optics has done a lot to keep the types from getting in the way, which is great
2020-12-07 10:11:30 +0100 <idnar> (I haven't used optics myself yet)
2020-12-07 10:13:24 +0100 <dminuoso> My largest annoyance with optics is that I dont get to use the clean looking (.) for composition anymore. :P
2020-12-07 10:13:25 +0100o1lo01ol1o(~o1lo01ol1@bl11-140-216.dsl.telepac.pt)
2020-12-07 10:13:48 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-07 10:14:05 +0100 <dminuoso> Perhaps Ill just do a prettify-symbols hack on % whenever my emacs detects an `import Optics` in the buffer. :p
2020-12-07 10:14:21 +0100mbirman(~user@119-17-128-101.771180.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net)
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2020-12-07 10:14:37 +0100raichoo(~raichoo@213.240.178.58)
2020-12-07 10:14:57 +0100 <dminuoso> The glyph ∘ would be a nice choice
2020-12-07 10:15:32 +0100fendor(~fendor@77.119.131.148.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2020-12-07 10:15:59 +0100 <idnar> I'm using the thing that font-locks -> to → and so on
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2020-12-07 10:16:51 +0100MOSCOS(~MOSCOS@122.54.107.175)
2020-12-07 10:17:36 +0100o1lo01ol1o(~o1lo01ol1@bl11-140-216.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 10:18:28 +0100 <dminuoso> Ah, I have PragmataPro plus mickeynp/ligature.el so that takes care of -> :)
2020-12-07 10:18:48 +0100 <dminuoso> So it's a proper ligature that nicely degrades on mouse over
2020-12-07 10:18:55 +0100 <dminuoso> or cursor over, rather.
2020-12-07 10:22:25 +0100jamm_(~jamm@unaffiliated/jamm)
2020-12-07 10:23:25 +0100Sgeo(~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-07 10:24:21 +0100 <dminuoso> →
2020-12-07 10:24:26 +0100 <dminuoso> Mmm, that is properly broken in my terminal
2020-12-07 10:24:45 +0100 <idnar> I do find it satisfying how things like "you can view a fold if you bring a Monoid" arise "naturally" from the types (`instance Monoid m => Applicative (Const m)` makes that work)
2020-12-07 10:24:46 +0100 <dminuoso> It doesn't quite know whether it's one or two characters..
2020-12-07 10:25:23 +0100philopsos(~caecilius@gateway/tor-sasl/caecilius) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 10:26:02 +0100darjeeling_(~darjeelin@122.245.218.196) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-07 10:26:45 +0100 <dminuoso> Its rendered with two glyps, selecting either the first or both puts just the single character into the clipboard... and if I select the first box, the second box stops rendering..
2020-12-07 10:26:57 +0100 <dminuoso> Gah I hate textual stuff.
2020-12-07 10:27:21 +0100xiinotulp(~q@ppp-27-55-80-233.revip3.asianet.co.th)
2020-12-07 10:28:56 +0100hnOsmium0001(uid453710@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-blqgdwgqtvmgdyih) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2020-12-07 10:29:26 +0100 <[exa]> dminuoso: what's your terminal btw?
2020-12-07 10:29:31 +0100 <dminuoso> idnar: And I find it satisfying how profunctor optics hierarchy nicely arises from just a tree of constraints.
2020-12-07 10:29:33 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:406f:6a8d:2175:4183) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 10:29:36 +0100kuribas(~user@ptr-25vy0i816ietay3t8f3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2020-12-07 10:30:18 +0100 <dminuoso> With lens you have to give up on that to represent certain optics in this mixed VL/profunctor representation
2020-12-07 10:30:48 +0100thc202(~thc202@unaffiliated/thc202)
2020-12-07 10:31:01 +0100plutoniix(~q@ppp-223-24-165-204.revip6.asianet.co.th) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-07 10:31:26 +0100 <idnar> dminuoso: yeah, iirc affine and relevant traversals are much less sticky
2020-12-07 10:32:13 +0100 <dminuoso> Well, affine is a separate issue, that's just because we dont have some `class (Apply f, Pointed f) => Applicative` type of hierarchy in base.
2020-12-07 10:32:15 +0100drbean(~drbean@TC210-63-209-18.static.apol.com.tw) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-07 10:32:21 +0100doct0rhu(~orctarorg@pool-72-88-158-154.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 10:32:25 +0100 <dminuoso> If we had, you could have affine optics in lens without an issue
2020-12-07 10:33:22 +0100 <idnar> part of the reason we don't is that it gets sticky :P
2020-12-07 10:35:14 +0100 <dminuoso> [exa]: xfce4-terminal
2020-12-07 10:35:33 +0100Lord_of_Life(~Lord@46.217.218.10) (Changing host)
2020-12-07 10:35:33 +0100Lord_of_Life(~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362)
2020-12-07 10:35:34 +0100ulidtko|k(~ulidtko@193.111.48.79)
2020-12-07 10:37:29 +0100ulidtko(~ulidtko@194.54.80.38) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-07 10:37:39 +0100o1lo01ol1o(~o1lo01ol1@bl11-140-216.dsl.telepac.pt)
2020-12-07 10:38:12 +0100borne(~fritjof@200116b864de8f009ba1d43461655289.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2020-12-07 10:39:52 +0100 <idnar> dminuoso: anyway, someday I'll probably get bored and port this codebase to optics :D
2020-12-07 10:40:10 +0100darjeeling_(~darjeelin@122.245.218.196)
2020-12-07 10:41:09 +0100 <[exa]> dminuoso: interesting, → renders there as single glyph for me
2020-12-07 10:41:23 +0100 <[exa]> single "glyph field" I mean
2020-12-07 10:42:07 +0100 <dminuoso> [exa]: Which font?
2020-12-07 10:43:07 +0100 <[exa]> looks like bitstream vera mono
2020-12-07 10:43:12 +0100 <[exa]> yeah
2020-12-07 10:43:30 +0100o1lo01ol1o(~o1lo01ol1@bl11-140-216.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 10:44:33 +0100o1lo01ol1o(~o1lo01ol1@bl11-140-216.dsl.telepac.pt)
2020-12-07 10:44:42 +0100LKoen(~LKoen@228.162.9.109.rev.sfr.net)
2020-12-07 10:46:37 +0100guest127(~user@49.5.6.87) (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
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2020-12-07 10:51:50 +0100 <joel135> How do I install profunctor-optics in stack?
2020-12-07 10:52:36 +0100 <joel135> https://pastebin.com/RCxGVHDW
2020-12-07 10:52:49 +0100Katarushisu(~Katarushi@cpc149712-finc20-2-0-cust535.4-2.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2020-12-07 10:53:28 +0100__monty__(~toonn@unaffiliated/toonn)
2020-12-07 10:54:20 +0100 <joel135> https://pastebin.com/8gGMTQFn https://pastebin.com/tBxqAtf1
2020-12-07 10:54:28 +0100 <Uniaika> joel135: stack is not a package manager like apt-get
2020-12-07 10:54:35 +0100 <Uniaika> create a stack project with `stack new`
2020-12-07 10:54:41 +0100 <joel135> ok
2020-12-07 10:54:43 +0100 <Uniaika> and add profunctor-optics to your cabal file
2020-12-07 10:54:57 +0100bitmagie(~Thunderbi@200116b80634ea0045c79ae02376c675.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Quit: bitmagie)
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2020-12-07 10:55:19 +0100Katarushisu(~Katarushi@cpc149712-finc20-2-0-cust535.4-2.cable.virginm.net)
2020-12-07 10:56:10 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-07 10:56:22 +0100 <__monty__> Do you mean stack.yaml? Cause stack overwrites the cabal file iirc?
2020-12-07 10:58:52 +0100 <joel135> https://pastebin.com/psWNpsHy
2020-12-07 11:01:10 +0100 <merijn> __monty__: It does not
2020-12-07 11:01:13 +0100sgibber2018(~arch-gibb@208.85.237.137)
2020-12-07 11:01:31 +0100 <merijn> __monty__: If you use hpack it will automatically call hpack which *will* overwrite the cabal file
2020-12-07 11:01:41 +0100 <merijn> But you shouldn't use hpack anyway :p
2020-12-07 11:02:29 +0100 <__monty__> So you can use stack without a stack.yaml?
2020-12-07 11:02:53 +0100 <merijn> __monty__: You are mixing up stack.yaml and package.yaml (the latter is hpack)
2020-12-07 11:03:05 +0100 <merijn> __monty__: Using stack via just a stack.yaml and .cabal file works fine
2020-12-07 11:03:13 +0100 <__monty__> Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing it up.
2020-12-07 11:03:32 +0100 <__monty__> Does stack simply ignore the bounds you supply?
2020-12-07 11:04:13 +0100gxt_(~gxt@gateway/tor-sasl/gxt)
2020-12-07 11:04:24 +0100 <merijn> I'm not entirely sure, I expect it does not ignore them (so if the version in your snapshot is out of bounds I would expect it to fail, but I don't use stack so I'm not sure)
2020-12-07 11:04:32 +0100 <Uniaika> I don't think it does ignore the cabal bounds
2020-12-07 11:04:48 +0100 <Uniaika> or rather, I've never had any issues with using bounds and stack
2020-12-07 11:04:51 +0100 <Uniaika> that's more correct :p
2020-12-07 11:04:54 +0100o1lo01ol1o(~o1lo01ol1@bl11-140-216.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-07 11:05:22 +0100 <merijn> __monty__: It simply constrains Cabal to the exact version in the resolver, so if those are within the bounds Cabal selects those. If they are not in the bounds Cabal will reject the package
2020-12-07 11:07:03 +0100gxt(~gxt@gateway/tor-sasl/gxt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 11:07:43 +0100 <ski> Axman6 : it doesn't know that `forall msg0 msg1. (Foo msg0 SomeHdr,Foo msg1 ADistinctHdr) => msg0 =/= msg1', and even if it did, iiuc it doesn't take instance contexts into account when checking which instances are relevant
2020-12-07 11:10:43 +0100Stanley00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00) ()
2020-12-07 11:10:52 +0100cosimone(~cosimone@93-47-228-249.ip115.fastwebnet.it)
2020-12-07 11:11:06 +0100 <joel135> "No setup information found for ghc-8.8.4 on your platform. This probably means a GHC bindist has not yet been added for OS key 'linux64-nopie'." --> I saw somewhere I might need to update to "resolver: lts-16.25" in my global stack.yaml but that didn't change anything (my local stack.yaml also points to ...lts/16/25.yaml)
2020-12-07 11:12:11 +0100Katarushisu(~Katarushi@cpc149712-finc20-2-0-cust535.4-2.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2020-12-07 11:13:28 +0100Katarushisu(~Katarushi@cpc149712-finc20-2-0-cust535.4-2.cable.virginm.net)
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2020-12-07 11:41:11 +0100 <joel135> Any ideas on my problem?
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2020-12-07 11:45:54 +0100 <merijn> joel135: Which distro is this?
2020-12-07 11:45:56 +0100 <joel135> I can't even run "stack ghci" or "stack install" if I update "resolver: lts-9.2" to "resolver: lts-16.25"
2020-12-07 11:45:58 +0100 <joel135> arch
2020-12-07 11:46:26 +0100 <merijn> heh, how could I ever thought it was anything different :)
2020-12-07 11:47:00 +0100 <sgibber2018> Arch is wonderful but it does seem to have some Haskell quirks
2020-12-07 11:47:16 +0100 <merijn> Not sure what the situation with stack is on Arch, but the non-stack situation is irrepairably fucked
2020-12-07 11:47:23 +0100 <merijn> I recommend consulting the Arch wiki
2020-12-07 11:48:02 +0100 <merijn> sgibber2018: "some quirks" is a polite way of describing "Arch maintainers intentionally ship a broken configuration" :)
2020-12-07 11:48:06 +0100lpy(~nyd@unaffiliated/elysian)
2020-12-07 11:48:37 +0100 <sgibber2018> Can you explain more? I don't know enough about the situation to form a full opinion.
2020-12-07 11:48:53 +0100 <sgibber2018> But I did have to do a lot of fiddling to get my haskell environment set up.
2020-12-07 11:48:57 +0100 <merijn> sgibber2018: GHC's default behaviour has always been to link Haskell libraries statically
2020-12-07 11:49:10 +0100 <__monty__> Is there a more general version of `Data.Map.unionsWith`? I want to accumulate the values in the maps in lists.
2020-12-07 11:49:18 +0100 <merijn> sgibber2018: Arch maintainers, for ideological reasons, believe everything should only ever link dynamically
2020-12-07 11:49:38 +0100 <merijn> sgibber2018: Therefore, Arch's Haskell packages *only* package the dynamic libs, not the static libs.
2020-12-07 11:49:48 +0100 <merijn> sgibber2018: But they don't bother to patch GHC to a different default
2020-12-07 11:50:12 +0100 <merijn> sgibber2018: So try to use GHC "as normal" will try and link statically and then crash and burn due to lack of static libs installed
2020-12-07 11:50:27 +0100christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-12-07 11:50:52 +0100 <sgibber2018> merijn: Oh. What's the common workaround for those using Arch? I have only used Haskell for very small-scale programming and some class assignments so far.
2020-12-07 11:51:16 +0100 <Athas> I think the motivation behind Arch's bizarre decision is that they care more about shipping Haskell *programs* (like Pandoc) than Haskell development tools. Although it's also a bit fuzzy how Pandoc benefits from this.
2020-12-07 11:51:32 +0100 <merijn> sgibber2018: The arch wiki has a bunch of suggestions, personally I would just install one of the GHC bindists and avoid the Arch packages entirely
2020-12-07 11:51:35 +0100 <Athas> sgibber2018: install stack manually (not via pacman) and let stack manage GHC for you.
2020-12-07 11:51:51 +0100 <sgibber2018> Good to know. Thanks all.
2020-12-07 11:52:06 +0100 <merijn> Athas: The problem is that now pandoc has a 100+ package dependency footprint that keeps needing to be reinstalled (due to lack of ABI compat) that's pissing off all their users :p
2020-12-07 11:52:20 +0100 <Athas> merijn: yes, I don't get it either.
2020-12-07 11:52:22 +0100 <merijn> sgibber2018: https://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_8_10_2.html
2020-12-07 11:52:46 +0100 <Athas> I'm a bit fuzzy on why GHC supports dynamic linking at all. Surely it was nontrivial to get it working, but what's the benefit?
2020-12-07 11:52:51 +0100 <merijn> sgibber2018: GHC has pre-built binaries that you can install via "./configure --prefix=path/to/install && make install"
2020-12-07 11:52:56 +0100chez(c12520c9@193.37.32.201) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2020-12-07 11:53:40 +0100 <sgibber2018> merijn: Good to know. The next time I need to make something non-trivial with Haskell I was planning to give Stack a try, and now I know to do it directly.
2020-12-07 11:53:47 +0100 <merijn> sgibber2018: There's also ghcup which automates all that
2020-12-07 11:54:27 +0100 <merijn> But I'm a luddite who insists on having his environment exactly the way I want, so I don't really bother with ghcup
2020-12-07 11:54:49 +0100 <maerwald> merijn: what exactly do you do different?
2020-12-07 11:55:06 +0100 <sgibber2018> merijn: Nothing luddite about wanting to manage your tech directly, imo
2020-12-07 11:55:16 +0100 <Athas> merijn: I also used to do that, but is there any benefit to it anymore, or is it just the impossible inertia of habit now?
2020-12-07 11:55:21 +0100L29Ah(~L29Ah@unaffiliated/l29ah)
2020-12-07 11:55:35 +0100 <sgibber2018> Some things I want to manage directly, some things I don't. That's part of being a computer person, is choosing where to invest your effort.
2020-12-07 11:55:37 +0100 <merijn> Athas: Probably inertia :)
2020-12-07 11:55:43 +0100rockethead(~rockethea@2001:41d0:302:2100::6dae)
2020-12-07 11:56:17 +0100 <merijn> maerwald: The main difference is probably "not having everything in ~/.ghcup" :p
2020-12-07 11:56:26 +0100rockethead(~rockethea@2001:41d0:302:2100::6dae) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 11:57:27 +0100 <Athas> Unless you need patched GHCs with nonstandard configuration, then I think ghcup is the most pragmatic choice.
2020-12-07 11:57:27 +0100 <maerwald> merijn: I support XDG
2020-12-07 11:57:38 +0100 <merijn> I mean, it's mostly inertia as Athas says. It's always worked for me and I see zero compelling reason to spend the effort to rethink my habits :p
2020-12-07 11:57:43 +0100 <maerwald> Athas: you can compile patched GHCs with ghcup :p
2020-12-07 11:59:08 +0100 <merijn> maerwald: Right, but "figuring out how to configure that properly" is more effort than "doing what I've always done" :p
2020-12-07 11:59:22 +0100 <maerwald> merijn: it's setting one env variable
2020-12-07 11:59:29 +0100 <merijn> I'll consider it when my current workflow breaks, but considering how minimal that is, it's likely to be never :p
2020-12-07 11:59:52 +0100danza(~francesco@151.53.92.26) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-07 11:59:54 +0100encod3(~encod3@45-154-157-94.ftth.glasoperator.nl)
2020-12-07 12:00:30 +0100 <maerwald> Athas: ghcup compile ghc -j 4 -v 8.4.2 -b 8.2.2 -x armv7-unknown-linux-gnueabihf --config $(pwd)/build.mk --patchdir patches/ -- --enable-unregisterised -- this builds a cross compiler with a custom config and patches
2020-12-07 12:00:46 +0100Codaraxis__(~Codaraxis@ip68-5-90-227.oc.oc.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-07 12:01:05 +0100 <maerwald> but there's not much difference to doing it manually, creating a bindist and then feeding that bindist to ghcup
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2020-12-07 12:01:56 +0100encod3(~encod3@45-154-157-94.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Client Quit)
2020-12-07 12:02:08 +0100 <Athas> Right, I'd probably just prefer to use GHC's own build system so I don't have to understand the limitations and toggles of ghcup.
2020-12-07 12:02:22 +0100 <maerwald> yeah, I only support make
2020-12-07 12:02:36 +0100whatisRT(~whatisRT@2002:5b41:6a33:0:2d8b:4360:ff80:54e2)
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2020-12-07 12:05:23 +0100 <joel135> so there are 3 ways? i have uninstalled haskell in arch. now i can install (1) https://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_8_10_2.html, or (2) ghcup, or (3) stack?
2020-12-07 12:05:41 +0100 <Athas> joel135: yes.
2020-12-07 12:06:10 +0100 <joel135> ok i'll go with stack and see if that works
2020-12-07 12:06:27 +0100qwfplyuh(2e050550@HSI-KBW-046-005-005-080.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de)
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2020-12-07 12:07:30 +0100 <joel135> "Since this installer doesn't support your Linux distribution, there is no guarantee that 'stack' will work at all!" that's reassuring
2020-12-07 12:08:21 +0100christo(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 12:08:56 +0100columbarius(~columbari@mue-88-130-54-125.dsl.tropolys.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-07 12:09:02 +0100christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-12-07 12:09:08 +0100 <Athas> Note that stack is more than just a GHC installer. It's mostly a way of building your Haskell code (technically not a build system for convoluted reasons). If you just want the basic compiler and tools, especially if you'd rather use cabal, then ghcup is better.
2020-12-07 12:10:11 +0100 <joel135> i want to use stack
2020-12-07 12:10:16 +0100columbarius(~columbari@mue-88-130-54-104.dsl.tropolys.de)
2020-12-07 12:10:36 +0100 <joel135> because i tried it with emacs and it worked
2020-12-07 12:11:13 +0100 <joel135> and cabal feels dangerous ...
2020-12-07 12:11:52 +0100 <[exa]> joel135: stack can be viewed as cabal orchestration tool, not less dangerous for sure. :]
2020-12-07 12:12:35 +0100 <maerwald> just use both
2020-12-07 12:12:38 +0100berberman_(~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman)
2020-12-07 12:12:42 +0100 <maerwald> there's no commitment issue really
2020-12-07 12:12:53 +0100 <maerwald> you don't like one, trash it and switch
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2020-12-07 12:13:36 +0100 <Athas> Yeah, they both use .cabal files to structure the program.
2020-12-07 12:13:48 +0100 <Athas> I use both stack and cabal for different things in my CI.
2020-12-07 12:13:56 +0100 <qwfplyuh> I'm getting `/run/user/1000/ghc3533_0/ghc_2.h: hClose: resource exhausted (No space left on device)` errors on NixOS when running `ghc -O2 <file>`. What are those folders / files for? Is it OK to just delete them?
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2020-12-07 12:23:06 +0100 <joel135> ok it seems like to install agda i need cabal anyways
2020-12-07 12:27:21 +0100 <joel135> (unless i manage to use this https://dev.to/sirasolra/installing-agda-in-stack-3b0l)
2020-12-07 12:27:32 +0100mlugg(c3c2162d@195.194.22.45)
2020-12-07 12:28:05 +0100da39a3ee5e6b4b0d(~da39a3ee5@2403:6200:8876:a9cd:5081:c991:1e35:d185)
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2020-12-07 12:30:28 +0100 <mlugg> I'm working on implementing a HM type inference system (approximately Algorithm W) in Haskell and am having trouble finding information on one small aspect of it. Like in Haskell, I have both explicitly and implicitly typed let-bindings. Most of the inference works, but there is one thing left; for explicit binding checking, I need to be able to
2020-12-07 12:30:29 +0100 <mlugg> see if one type scheme is an instance of another (or rather, if one is at least as general as another), and I cannot find any information on how best to do this. I believe it could be done by finding the mgu of the two types in isolation and checking that the substitution returned obeys certain properties, but this feels quite complicated. Is there
2020-12-07 12:30:29 +0100 <mlugg> a nicer way?
2020-12-07 12:31:14 +0100 <arahael> mlugg: What sources did you use, out of interest? (I might be interested to do this myself, one day, though that day is not today, sadly)
2020-12-07 12:31:46 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:cc3:649d:beb7:1989)
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2020-12-07 12:33:46 +0100 <zangi> since cabal-install doesn't have `cabal uninstall`, is it safe to remove `~/.cabal/bin/program` manually?
2020-12-07 12:34:26 +0100Gurkenglas(~Gurkengla@unaffiliated/gurkenglas)
2020-12-07 12:34:26 +0100 <mlugg> arahael: For my implementation? I've been looking over a variety of stuff for a while, I can't really pin down one good resource unfortunately - there's a wealth of information on the algorithm for the most part, the only bit which it's a bit harder to find information on is Haskell-like let bindings. To be honest, I'm not certain where I managed
2020-12-07 12:34:27 +0100 <mlugg> to figure those out, but I believe this https://gist.github.com/chrisdone/0075a16b32bfd4f62b7b was vaguely helpful
2020-12-07 12:35:40 +0100 <arahael> Thanks for that. :)
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2020-12-07 12:46:55 +0100kirji(~kirji@186.206.197.118) ()
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2020-12-07 12:55:34 +0100 <joel135> ok now i have stack, ghc, agda, emacs compatibility
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2020-12-07 12:56:37 +0100 <joel135> how to install profunctor-optics? https://pastebin.com/pXwysezt
2020-12-07 12:57:10 +0100 <dminuoso> qwfplyuh: Gah, the error message is misleading
2020-12-07 12:57:58 +0100 <dminuoso> joel135: Mmm, I dont know about stack really, but optics (which is also profunctors based) is in the latest stackage resolvers.
2020-12-07 12:58:05 +0100 <dminuoso> In case that's an option
2020-12-07 12:58:24 +0100rue-88(~rue-88@130.185.200.98) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2020-12-07 12:58:38 +0100 <joel135> i am using url: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/commercialhaskell/stackage-snapshots/master/lts/16/25.yaml
2020-12-07 12:58:41 +0100cads(~cads@ip-64-72-99-232.lasvegas.net) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-12-07 12:58:54 +0100 <dminuoso> That one has optics in it.
2020-12-07 12:59:07 +0100cads(~cads@ip-64-72-99-232.lasvegas.net)
2020-12-07 12:59:09 +0100 <dminuoso> (or optics-core, depending on what you want)
2020-12-07 12:59:13 +0100 <joel135> ok i don't really care which package i try
2020-12-07 13:00:16 +0100 <joel135> i'll try optics then
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2020-12-07 13:03:16 +0100 <joel135> it worked
2020-12-07 13:04:31 +0100 <dminuoso> qwfplyuh: The error could also be emitted when you run out of file descriptors or inodes I think.
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2020-12-07 13:14:50 +0100Amras(~Amras@unaffiliated/amras)
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2020-12-07 13:24:56 +0100 <joel135> oh no now i get Haskell process command errored with: (error "Unexpected response from haskell process.")
2020-12-07 13:25:02 +0100 <joel135> in emacs
2020-12-07 13:25:45 +0100danza(~francesco@151.53.92.26)
2020-12-07 13:25:56 +0100 <joel135> even though i am using "(setq haskell-process-type 'stack-ghci))"
2020-12-07 13:26:28 +0100Entertainment(~entertain@104.246.132.210)
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2020-12-07 13:31:28 +0100 <joel135> ok i needed this https://github.com/haskell/haskell-mode/issues/1553#issuecomment-358373643
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2020-12-07 14:28:49 +0100 <operand> Hi, I'm trying to parse some input using Megaparsec and I can't quite figure out if there is any way to parse, e.g. "word1 word2" without having to manually concatenate the results of parsing word1, the space, and word2
2020-12-07 14:29:11 +0100 <operand> I'm not sure if there /is/ even a way, but if somebody could confirm that that would be quite nice as well :P
2020-12-07 14:30:49 +0100polyphem(~p0lyph3m@2a02:810d:640:776c:76d7:55f6:f85b:c889)
2020-12-07 14:31:12 +0100polux200137(~polux@51.15.169.172) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.github.io)
2020-12-07 14:31:31 +0100polux200137(~polux@51.15.169.172)
2020-12-07 14:36:24 +0100 <tomsmeding> operand: what about this?
2020-12-07 14:36:28 +0100 <tomsmeding> :t fmap concat . sequence
2020-12-07 14:36:30 +0100 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Monad f) => t (f [a]) -> f [a]
2020-12-07 14:36:48 +0100dexterlb(~dexterlb@2a01:9e40:2:2::2) (Quit: Boing)
2020-12-07 14:36:52 +0100jmchael(~jmchael@87.112.60.168)
2020-12-07 14:37:16 +0100 <tomsmeding> as in, let combine = fmap concat . sequence in combine [parseWord1, string " ", parseWord2] or suchlike
2020-12-07 14:40:56 +0100 <dminuoso> Mmm, that looks like we should have a combinator for it
2020-12-07 14:41:41 +0100 <dminuoso> operand: What about the naive? (<>) <$> w1 <*> w2
2020-12-07 14:41:59 +0100 <dminuoso> The space shouldnt even be in your grammar at this point
2020-12-07 14:42:10 +0100 <dminuoso> Every token should be wrapped in your `lexeme` combinator
2020-12-07 14:42:51 +0100mynameismud(~rebb@89-164-126-33.dsl.iskon.hr)
2020-12-07 14:44:24 +0100LKoen_(~LKoen@228.162.9.109.rev.sfr.net)
2020-12-07 14:44:40 +0100 <mynameismud> hello
2020-12-07 14:44:57 +0100 <operand> dminuoso: You're right, I probably should be using the lexeme combinator :/ I just haven't been able to *quite* figure it out yet
2020-12-07 14:45:12 +0100 <operand> I'm using advent of code challenges to try and learn parser combinators :p
2020-12-07 14:45:19 +0100 <dminuoso> operand: let lexeme = L.lexeme sc; anyWord = L.lexeme (takeWhileP (Just "any word") (satisfy isAlpha)) in (<>) <$> anyWord <*> anyWord
2020-12-07 14:45:31 +0100drbean(~drbean@TC210-63-209-75.static.apol.com.tw) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-12-07 14:45:40 +0100 <dminuoso> Where sc is your favourite space consumer
2020-12-07 14:46:47 +0100 <dminuoso> Oh, or https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-9.0.1/docs/Text-Megaparsec-Byte.html#v:letterChar perhaps
2020-12-07 14:47:09 +0100LKoen(~LKoen@228.162.9.109.rev.sfr.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-07 14:47:16 +0100 <dminuoso> Mmm, no I think takeWhileP with a predicate is faster
2020-12-07 14:47:35 +0100Tario(~Tario@201.192.165.173)
2020-12-07 14:47:39 +0100p8m(p8m@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/p8m) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-07 14:47:53 +0100 <merijn> operand: tbh, these AoC puzzles aren't great for learning megaparsec
2020-12-07 14:47:59 +0100jneira(501e6453@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.80.30.100.83)
2020-12-07 14:48:14 +0100 <operand> merijn: i noticed. but i'm sticking with it anyway v:
2020-12-07 14:48:23 +0100xelxebar(~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 14:48:53 +0100 <mynameismud> any people around for a noob or you all 3l33t and bots?
2020-12-07 14:49:03 +0100 <dminuoso> mynameismud: Just ask your question.
2020-12-07 14:49:07 +0100 <dminuoso> We don't mind beginner questions of any kind.
2020-12-07 14:49:34 +0100carlomagno(~cararell@148.87.23.6)
2020-12-07 14:49:48 +0100lxsameer(~lxsameer@unaffiliated/lxsameer)
2020-12-07 14:49:52 +0100 <dminuoso> If this channel is noisy you can also try #haskell-beginners which tends to be a bit quieter, but we dont mind such questions asked in #haskell at all.
2020-12-07 14:50:16 +0100 <dminuoso> Mmm, surely lambdabot has a factoid for this
2020-12-07 14:50:18 +0100dexterlb(~dexterlb@2a01:9e40:2:2::2)
2020-12-07 14:50:20 +0100 <mynameismud> first of thank you, secondly what linux lightweight is great to use if you can't run Kali
2020-12-07 14:50:48 +0100xelxebar(~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar)
2020-12-07 14:51:10 +0100 <mynameismud> my workstation had a malfunction cuz of eletricity is in the shit here so i'm using an old laptop now
2020-12-07 14:51:16 +0100 <Axman6> mynameismud: does that question have anything to do with the Haskell programming language?
2020-12-07 14:51:52 +0100 <mynameismud> i'd like to learn it
2020-12-07 14:52:25 +0100 <operand> dminuoso: It just still confuses me what `lexeme sc parser` actually does. Will it simply run the given parser on every lexeme, delimited by the spaces as taken by spaceconsumer?
2020-12-07 14:52:33 +0100o1lo01ol1o(~o1lo01ol1@bl11-140-216.dsl.telepac.pt)
2020-12-07 14:52:58 +0100 <dminuoso> operand: So the idea is roughly this: Rather than wrapping it with lexeme manually, you'd rather have a lexeme partially applied to a consistent space consumer.
2020-12-07 14:53:07 +0100p8m(p8m@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/p8m)
2020-12-07 14:53:16 +0100 <dminuoso> say your grammar allows for haskell style comments, and only spaces (but not tabs!) are considered whitespace
2020-12-07 14:53:27 +0100Aquazi(uid312403@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gkvwezxwtrpnkicw)
2020-12-07 14:53:46 +0100 <dminuoso> Then you would write a space consumer, that is just a parser that returns nothing, but it consumes all following comments/spaces until it hits something else
2020-12-07 14:53:49 +0100solonarv(~solonarv@astrasbourg-552-1-28-212.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2020-12-07 14:53:49 +0100 <Axman6> you might find you better answers about linux in ##linux
2020-12-07 14:54:08 +0100 <dminuoso> The definition of lexeme is just a simple:
2020-12-07 14:54:11 +0100 <dminuoso> lexeme spc p = p <* spc
2020-12-07 14:54:12 +0100 <Axman6> if you've got Haskell questions we'll be more than happy to help though
2020-12-07 14:54:22 +0100dawiss(~dawiss@185-119-185-201.actus-info.pl) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2020-12-07 14:54:53 +0100 <Axman6> dminuoso: tabs are considered greyspace characters, because they make people sad
2020-12-07 14:55:05 +0100Varis(~Tadas@unaffiliated/varis) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 14:55:29 +0100 <dminuoso> operand: So what you'd write is `lexeme = L.lexeme yourSc`, you can then use your own `lexeme` combinator to build parsers for lexemes.
2020-12-07 14:55:52 +0100 <dminuoso> Say: instanceKw = lexeme (string "instance")
2020-12-07 14:55:54 +0100 <operand> That is the part I get. "use your own lexeme combinator to build parsers for lexemes" is the part I dont get :P
2020-12-07 14:56:04 +0100 <dminuoso> operand: ^- see that example I just wrote
2020-12-07 14:56:23 +0100 <operand> <* is the applicative functor for "ignore right result but keep effect", right?
2020-12-07 14:56:27 +0100 <dminuoso> Right.
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2020-12-07 14:57:17 +0100 <operand> So the `lexeme` combinator will not tokenize the input, but rather just automatically strip whitespace for me so I don't have to deal with it?
2020-12-07 14:57:25 +0100 <dminuoso> Well..
2020-12-07 14:57:30 +0100 <dminuoso> it depends on your look of things, but yeah
2020-12-07 14:57:44 +0100mynameismud(~rebb@89-164-126-33.dsl.iskon.hr) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-12-07 14:57:53 +0100 <dminuoso> you *could* build a plain tokenizer with this
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2020-12-07 14:58:59 +0100 <dminuoso> lexeme turns a parser that parses the actual lexeme into one that works on the input stream
2020-12-07 14:59:07 +0100drincruz_(~adriancru@ool-44c748be.dyn.optonline.net)
2020-12-07 14:59:11 +0100 <dminuoso> just like your tokenizer would toss away white space
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2020-12-07 15:00:00 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@unaffiliated/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-12-07 15:00:08 +0100 <operand> Right, that makes a lot of sense
2020-12-07 15:01:50 +0100geekosaur69(82659a09@host154-009.vpn.uakron.edu)
2020-12-07 15:02:10 +0100 <operand> Thanks a lot :D
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2020-12-07 15:15:44 +0100 <jonn> Dear all, I wonder if VSCode users can shed some light on hints not applying with `Haskell` extension in a timely manner. For instance, if I make code with redundant brackets, like `id' x = (x)`, it takes over a minute to remove redundant branches.
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2020-12-07 15:48:19 +0100 <codedmart> How can I link payments/changes to payouts in the api?
2020-12-07 15:48:43 +0100 <codedmart> Sorry wrong channel
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2020-12-07 16:35:46 +0100 <cheater> hi all
2020-12-07 16:36:17 +0100jonathanx_(~jonathan@dyn-8-sc.cdg.chalmers.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 16:36:30 +0100 <cheater> i'm trying to compile some haskell libs on windows, but for that i need to compile llvm from source, and hitting some snags with cmake not finding kernel32.lib. has anyone got experience with this sort of stuff who could help me with this?
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2020-12-07 16:46:48 +0100phasespace(~sar@89-162-33-21.fiber.signal.no)
2020-12-07 16:47:22 +0100 <merijn> cheater: Wait, why do you need llvm?
2020-12-07 16:47:40 +0100 <cheater> i need one binary from it that isn't included in the binary distribution
2020-12-07 16:47:58 +0100 <cheater> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/17096804/where-is-llvm-config-in-windows
2020-12-07 16:48:09 +0100 <cheater> llvm-config is not included in the binary distributions
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2020-12-07 16:48:21 +0100 <cheater> and that's needed to compile the llvm haskell library
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2020-12-07 17:04:29 +0100bitmapper(uid464869@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rzuvzgsqtyjylpyp)
2020-12-07 17:04:31 +0100 <merijn> Have you heard the joyous news? The gospel that will improve all our lives forevermore?
2020-12-07 17:05:10 +0100 <merijn> I still remember the news!
2020-12-07 17:05:25 +0100 <merijn> When Athas notified me "lazy sum is kill" :>
2020-12-07 17:06:08 +0100 <merijn> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/4355 \o/
2020-12-07 17:06:31 +0100 <Athas> Also minimum and maximum.
2020-12-07 17:07:13 +0100kupi(uid212005@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bkwjmbfkayjdlwwo) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2020-12-07 17:07:30 +0100 <shapr> chessai: good job
2020-12-07 17:08:04 +0100 <chessai> shapr on what
2020-12-07 17:08:13 +0100 <merijn> Whichever GHC this end up being in will probably be the first one in years I will upgrade to immediately
2020-12-07 17:08:23 +0100 <merijn> chessai: Killing lazy sum :D
2020-12-07 17:08:51 +0100 <merijn> I guess technically, you didn't kill it, just merged it, but still
2020-12-07 17:09:05 +0100 <chessai> minimumBy and maximumBy too
2020-12-07 17:09:08 +0100geowiesnot(~user@i15-les02-ix2-87-89-181-157.sfr.lns.abo.bbox.fr)
2020-12-07 17:09:28 +0100 <merijn> oh, wait, it was you on those commits
2020-12-07 17:09:32 +0100 <merijn> anyway
2020-12-07 17:09:45 +0100 <merijn> chessai: Do you know if it'll be 9.0 or 9.2?
2020-12-07 17:09:50 +0100 <chessai> I did write it, didn't merge it
2020-12-07 17:09:54 +0100 <chessai> 9.2 iirc
2020-12-07 17:09:59 +0100merijnsad noises
2020-12-07 17:10:27 +0100 <Athas> 9.2 will be the year of GHC on the desktop.
2020-12-07 17:10:56 +0100SanchayanMaity(~Sanchayan@122.167.92.138) (Quit: SanchayanMaity)
2020-12-07 17:10:56 +0100 <merijn> Man, this is the best news since finding out strict foldMap was finally added :>
2020-12-07 17:10:57 +0100 <maerwald> which GHC brings the long awaited build time improvements? :)
2020-12-07 17:11:10 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-07 17:11:22 +0100 <Uniaika> < merijn> Have you heard the joyous news? The gospel that will improve all our lives forevermore? // <3
2020-12-07 17:11:30 +0100 <Uniaika> merijn: 8.12 ! :P
2020-12-07 17:11:41 +0100 <merijn> 8.12 is a myth
2020-12-07 17:11:52 +0100 <Uniaika> my poing ;)
2020-12-07 17:11:55 +0100 <Uniaika> *point
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2020-12-07 17:18:10 +0100hekkaidekapus_(~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus)
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2020-12-07 17:21:00 +0100 <maerwald> lower build times increase productivity more than any linear typesystem
2020-12-07 17:21:22 +0100 <merijn> maerwald: Who was talking about linear types, though?
2020-12-07 17:21:34 +0100 <maerwald> merijn: no one, I am
2020-12-07 17:22:01 +0100 <maerwald> sharing my excitement for a GHC release that fixes build times :)
2020-12-07 17:22:07 +0100 <merijn> I mean, both linear Haskell and dependent Haskell are likely to have limited use, imo
2020-12-07 17:22:13 +0100 <merijn> But that's hardly a niche opinion
2020-12-07 17:22:41 +0100ShalokShalom(b9110d05@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.185.17.13.5)
2020-12-07 17:22:48 +0100 <ShalokShalom> hi there :)
2020-12-07 17:23:16 +0100 <ShalokShalom> No setup information found for ghc-8.8.4 on your platform.
2020-12-07 17:23:16 +0100 <ShalokShalom> This probably means a GHC bindist has not yet been added for OS key 'linux64-ncurses6'.
2020-12-07 17:23:17 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Supported versions: ghc-7.10.3, ghc-8.0.1, ghc-8.0.2, ghc-8.2.1, ghc-8.2.2
2020-12-07 17:23:42 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Does this mean stack does not provide any option for my OS, since its gcc is too new?
2020-12-07 17:24:45 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@135-23-192-217.cpe.pppoe.ca)
2020-12-07 17:24:49 +0100 <merijn> hmm, that's the 2nd or 3rd time that error comes by
2020-12-07 17:25:01 +0100 <merijn> Which distro?
2020-12-07 17:25:31 +0100jpds(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2020-12-07 17:25:46 +0100srk(~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki)
2020-12-07 17:25:50 +0100hexo(~hexo@gateway/tor-sasl/hexo)
2020-12-07 17:25:52 +0100 <ShalokShalom> KaOS
2020-12-07 17:26:09 +0100jpds(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds)
2020-12-07 17:26:10 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Independent distro
2020-12-07 17:26:29 +0100 <merijn> Sounds like it ships a combination of libraries that's unknown to stack
2020-12-07 17:26:31 +0100 <ShalokShalom> I used the curl command on the homepage
2020-12-07 17:26:41 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Aha. OK?
2020-12-07 17:26:49 +0100 <ShalokShalom> And how can I solve this?
2020-12-07 17:27:15 +0100 <merijn> Well, if you mean "while still using stack", then the answer is probably "open an issue and cross your fingers"
2020-12-07 17:27:16 +0100 <maerwald> it's pacman based
2020-12-07 17:27:25 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Yes.
2020-12-07 17:27:33 +0100 <maerwald> Do they reuse arch packages?
2020-12-07 17:27:37 +0100 <ShalokShalom> No.
2020-12-07 17:27:41 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Its independent.
2020-12-07 17:27:55 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Otherwise, I would just use Arch packages :)
2020-12-07 17:28:01 +0100 <maerwald> I can't find a KaOS docker image
2020-12-07 17:28:14 +0100 <merijn> ShalokShalom: ahahaha
2020-12-07 17:28:16 +0100britva(~britva@31-10-157-156.cgn.dynamic.upc.ch)
2020-12-07 17:28:17 +0100 <merijn> ShalokShalom: Don't :)
2020-12-07 17:28:17 +0100 <ShalokShalom> I dont think, there is one. You want to setup and try it yourself?
2020-12-07 17:28:30 +0100 <merijn> ShalokShalom: Arch's Haskell package are *completely* broken
2020-12-07 17:28:31 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Yeah I know. It would break my system.
2020-12-07 17:28:49 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Ah, nice. And they are countless, so I decided to use Stack.
2020-12-07 17:29:03 +0100 <merijn> ShalokShalom: No, I meant that they don't even work right on Arch :)
2020-12-07 17:29:05 +0100 <ShalokShalom> KaOS has no Haskell packages at all, since its a tiny distro
2020-12-07 17:29:12 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Yes, I understood.
2020-12-07 17:29:27 +0100 <ShalokShalom> I didnt know that, while it would destroy my OS anyway. :)
2020-12-07 17:30:23 +0100 <merijn> ShalokShalom: stack insists on installing its own GHCs, so if they don't have compatible binaries that just won't work. You could install GHC (and cabal) yourself and work with cabal
2020-12-07 17:30:42 +0100 <ShalokShalom> I think it mistaken my OS for an Arch:
2020-12-07 17:30:52 +0100 <merijn> ShalokShalom: I'm sure *one* of the pre-built GHC bindists should work: https://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_8_10_2.html#linux_x86_64
2020-12-07 17:30:57 +0100philopsos(~caecilius@gateway/tor-sasl/caecilius)
2020-12-07 17:31:11 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/41c49374e24a9a894eb6a043c518fa96/Screenshot_20201207_173102.png
2020-12-07 17:31:28 +0100 <ShalokShalom> See line 74 and 76
2020-12-07 17:31:35 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Or is this CPU Arch?
2020-12-07 17:31:42 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Let me read the script.
2020-12-07 17:32:52 +0100jathan(~jathan@69.61.93.38)
2020-12-07 17:33:03 +0100 <ShalokShalom> CPU
2020-12-07 17:33:35 +0100 <maerwald> ShalokShalom: I want to test KaOS without spending time :)
2020-12-07 17:33:47 +0100 <ShalokShalom> I figured
2020-12-07 17:37:24 +0100cheater(~user@unaffiliated/cheater) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 17:38:29 +0100cole-h(~cole-h@c-73-48-197-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2020-12-07 17:38:44 +0100 <ShalokShalom> So there is no way?
2020-12-07 17:38:55 +0100cosimone(~cosimone@93-47-228-249.ip115.fastwebnet.it) (Quit: cosimone)
2020-12-07 17:39:04 +0100 <ShalokShalom> How does Stack integrate new distros, which binaries are missing and who does maintain or know about it?
2020-12-07 17:39:09 +0100cheater(~user@unaffiliated/cheater)
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2020-12-07 17:40:17 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:cc3:649d:beb7:1989)
2020-12-07 17:41:15 +0100meck(~meck@li1809-18.members.linode.com)
2020-12-07 17:42:00 +0100 <merijn> ShalokShalom: Check their github page?
2020-12-07 17:42:07 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Thanks.
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2020-12-07 17:49:27 +0100 <jared-w> Does KaOS have docker as a package? You could always just use ghc-in-docker
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2020-12-07 17:52:05 +0100rak810(~rak810@27.147.206.3)
2020-12-07 17:56:27 +0100 <cheater> hi. my problems have been solved by rebooting and running cmake inside the Developer PowerShell for VS 2019 command prompt after deleting the source tree and unpacking it again.
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2020-12-07 18:35:23 +0100emmanuel_erc(~user@2604:2000:1382:ce03:8098:7b4a:87e8:5ce7)
2020-12-07 18:35:42 +0100 <emmanuel_erc> Hello there. What is Haskell support on Windows like these days?
2020-12-07 18:36:00 +0100 <texasmynsted> I see ghcup does not run on new Apple Silicon, m1, as per https://leo.fm/2020/11/applesilicon/
2020-12-07 18:36:06 +0100 <xerox_> texasmynsted: it does
2020-12-07 18:36:18 +0100 <texasmynsted> ?
2020-12-07 18:36:21 +0100 <texasmynsted> It does?
2020-12-07 18:36:35 +0100 <xerox_> yep I'm using it
2020-12-07 18:36:40 +0100 <texasmynsted> Heh okay
2020-12-07 18:36:53 +0100 <maerwald> maybe they're still testing the shell version of ghcup?
2020-12-07 18:37:22 +0100 <texasmynsted> I guess I did not know there was more than one version of ghcup
2020-12-07 18:38:12 +0100 <maerwald> texasmynsted: what version are you using
2020-12-07 18:38:39 +0100 <maerwald> xerox_: can you comment on the blog post? (there's a comment section)
2020-12-07 18:39:22 +0100 <texasmynsted> It lives here /Users/mmynsted/.ghcup/bin/ghcup
2020-12-07 18:39:48 +0100 <texasmynsted> So I am guessing I must have installed via "curl --proto '=https' --tlsv1.2 -sSf https://get-ghcup.haskell.org | sh "
2020-12-07 18:39:58 +0100 <maerwald> that's the binary version then
2020-12-07 18:40:01 +0100 <sm[m]> hello emmanuel_erc , it works well. stack makes it easiest, chocolatey is another option
2020-12-07 18:40:22 +0100 <sm[m]> emmanuel_erc: certain GHC releases work better than others, generally pick the latest point release
2020-12-07 18:40:22 +0100 <texasmynsted> Is that the version that works?
2020-12-07 18:40:27 +0100 <texasmynsted> Oh I suppose it would not
2020-12-07 18:40:38 +0100 <maerwald> texasmynsted: I'm pretty sure xerox_ is using that version too
2020-12-07 18:40:42 +0100 <xerox_> yes
2020-12-07 18:40:45 +0100 <maerwald> just not sure what version the blog poster used
2020-12-07 18:40:58 +0100 <xerox_> I can't this very moment but I'll make a note for later
2020-12-07 18:41:15 +0100rayyyy(~nanoz@gateway/tor-sasl/nanoz)
2020-12-07 18:41:42 +0100 <texasmynsted> insteresting
2020-12-07 18:41:45 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-12-07 18:41:51 +0100 <texasmynsted> interesting rather
2020-12-07 18:42:04 +0100 <texasmynsted> I would not think the binary would work. I do not see an m1 binary here https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghcup/
2020-12-07 18:42:18 +0100 <xerox_> the system can and does run x86_64
2020-12-07 18:42:23 +0100 <texasmynsted> I guess it runs via rosseta or whatever it is called
2020-12-07 18:42:31 +0100 <texasmynsted> nod
2020-12-07 18:42:33 +0100 <texasmynsted> okay
2020-12-07 18:43:19 +0100 <emmanuel_erc> I was told by another developer (non-Haskel user btw, this particular guy is not malicious) that was Haskell support on Windows is worse than Node.js or Rust.
2020-12-07 18:43:52 +0100 <emmanuel_erc> sm[m]: I was very skeptical of his claims, especially considering that he doesn't really use Haskell all that much.
2020-12-07 18:44:00 +0100 <maerwald> Probably, but windows is hard and not much industrial interest in pushing support I guess
2020-12-07 18:44:23 +0100 <maerwald> and now that there's WSL...
2020-12-07 18:45:17 +0100 <texasmynsted> what is WSL?
2020-12-07 18:45:26 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-12-07 18:45:57 +0100 <emmanuel_erc> I guess what I'm asking is if you were trying to move a Haskell app originally developed on Linux/MacOS, and its main non-Haskell dependency was postgres, would it be difficult?
2020-12-07 18:46:34 +0100cr3(~cr3@192-222-143-195.qc.cable.ebox.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-07 18:47:15 +0100 <texasmynsted> iirc you can install postgresql on windows
2020-12-07 18:47:38 +0100 <emmanuel_erc> sure
2020-12-07 18:47:58 +0100 <texasmynsted> And there are other DBMS that work on windows
2020-12-07 18:48:25 +0100 <texasmynsted> also it is a database, why would it need to run locally?
2020-12-07 18:48:56 +0100 <texasmynsted> Just run postgresql on a "best-fit" system
2020-12-07 18:49:04 +0100 <maerwald> texasmynsted: it's basically linux on windows
2020-12-07 18:49:13 +0100cr3(~cr3@192-222-143-195.qc.cable.ebox.net)
2020-12-07 18:49:18 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> so if I have `mA :: Maybe a; mB :: Maybe a`, and I want to do something different based on which combination of Just/Nothing the two are, how might I go about doing that?
2020-12-07 18:49:23 +0100 <maerwald> on WSL2, a real linux kernel is running there afaik
2020-12-07 18:49:28 +0100gproto23(~gproto23@unaffiliated/gproto23)
2020-12-07 18:49:30 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> case-statement comes to mind, but I'm wondering what other options there are
2020-12-07 18:50:01 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> nvm I'm just going to use case lol
2020-12-07 18:50:57 +0100 <ski> ezzieyguywuf : do what, specifically ?
2020-12-07 18:51:03 +0100 <texasmynsted> You could always start with case, then later you may find you can simplify.
2020-12-07 18:51:27 +0100 <texasmynsted> It really depends on what your "combination" is.
2020-12-07 18:51:44 +0100 <texasmynsted> I can not tell what you mean when you simply say combination
2020-12-07 18:52:22 +0100 <maerwald> meh, I confused usernames here
2020-12-07 18:52:30 +0100 <maerwald> emmanuel_erc: the above was for you ^^
2020-12-07 18:52:40 +0100 <maerwald> why are you both yellow colored
2020-12-07 18:52:56 +0100 <texasmynsted> I am blue as far as I can tell
2020-12-07 18:53:01 +0100ulidtko|k(~ulidtko@193.111.48.79) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-07 18:53:04 +0100 <maerwald> nah, definitely yellow here
2020-12-07 18:53:06 +0100 <maerwald> :D
2020-12-07 18:53:08 +0100 <texasmynsted> you show as yellow to me actually
2020-12-07 18:53:30 +0100 <emmanuel_erc> maerwald: Yeah I see that.
2020-12-07 18:53:55 +0100 <texasmynsted> But then most everybody shows as yellow in this limechat theme
2020-12-07 18:55:07 +0100nowhere_man(~pierre@2a01:e0a:3c7:60d0:e88f:4e24:f6a7:f155) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-07 18:57:14 +0100p-core(~Thunderbi@2001:718:1e03:5128:2ab7:7f35:48a1:8515)
2020-12-07 18:57:49 +0100ShalokShalom(b9110d05@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.185.17.13.5)
2020-12-07 18:57:55 +0100 <ShalokShalom> How can I connect the GHC from Stack to VSC?
2020-12-07 18:58:12 +0100 <ShalokShalom> I got it installed and it still complains about not being there.
2020-12-07 18:58:23 +0100 <ShalokShalom> I assume I have to set some path or so?
2020-12-07 18:58:37 +0100 <maerwald> ShalokShalom: ~/.stack/programs/x86_64-linux/ghc-tinfo6-8.6.5/bin on my PC, for example
2020-12-07 18:58:44 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Thanks a lot
2020-12-07 18:58:45 +0100 <sm[m]> ShalokShalom: install the Haskell extension, that should be enough. Check their readme
2020-12-07 18:58:47 +0100 <maerwald> that's where it installs stuff
2020-12-07 18:59:08 +0100 <maerwald> but probably there should be an cleaner way yeah
2020-12-07 18:59:13 +0100 <ShalokShalom> The script mentions it installs a "generic bindist"
2020-12-07 18:59:15 +0100 <sm[m]> emmanuel_erc: postgres on windows sounds difficult, but you'd have to check the postgres site
2020-12-07 18:59:22 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Does anybody know, what that means?
2020-12-07 18:59:38 +0100 <ShalokShalom> It seems like there is only one binary per platform, so that confuses me.
2020-12-07 18:59:45 +0100ekleog_ekleog
2020-12-07 19:00:00 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Which other than the "generic bindist" could be meant..
2020-12-07 19:00:38 +0100 <geekosaur> shalokShalom, for your purposes it means "they don't expect you to be using stack"
2020-12-07 19:00:55 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Aha. Ok.
2020-12-07 19:01:02 +0100 <geekosaur> and there is more than one binary per platform because of dependencies
2020-12-07 19:01:05 +0100 <ShalokShalom> But what is a generic "bindist"
2020-12-07 19:01:16 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Ah, I mean in the download section.
2020-12-07 19:01:25 +0100 <ShalokShalom> So there are more options, not hosted there?
2020-12-07 19:01:47 +0100 <geekosaur> it comes with a configure script that figures out things like what linker you have installed, and configures the compiler appropriately
2020-12-07 19:02:00 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Ah ok
2020-12-07 19:02:08 +0100 <ShalokShalom> So its not about a different binary?
2020-12-07 19:02:21 +0100 <ShalokShalom> The binary for all x86_64 Linux is always the same?
2020-12-07 19:02:42 +0100cosimone(~cosimone@2001:b07:ae5:db26:d849:743b:370b:b3cd)
2020-12-07 19:02:52 +0100ambidextrose(~fut-learn@mobile-166-170-46-23.mycingular.net)
2020-12-07 19:03:24 +0100 <geekosaur> is not always the same, see for example http://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.10.2/
2020-12-07 19:03:51 +0100hans_(~hans@94-214-46-13.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2020-12-07 19:04:09 +0100 <ShalokShalom> maerwald: The directory you pointed me to does contain script files
2020-12-07 19:04:17 +0100ambidextrose(~fut-learn@mobile-166-170-46-23.mycingular.net) ()
2020-12-07 19:04:28 +0100 <ShalokShalom> despite the name "bin" for it, why ever *shrug*
2020-12-07 19:04:28 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:cc3:649d:beb7:1989) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 19:04:32 +0100 <maerwald> ShalokShalom: was that a question?
2020-12-07 19:04:59 +0100rayyyy(~nanoz@gateway/tor-sasl/nanoz) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 19:05:14 +0100 <ShalokShalom> You pointed me to it, in regards to the path I have to point Visual Studio Code to
2020-12-07 19:05:22 +0100 <ShalokShalom> And that wants a binary, obviously
2020-12-07 19:05:26 +0100cosimone(~cosimone@2001:b07:ae5:db26:d849:743b:370b:b3cd) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-07 19:05:30 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/6cb7290cfe4450b4c7cc68d48ea9c389/Screenshot_20201207_190438.png
2020-12-07 19:05:34 +0100 <maerwald> yes, you can treat script files and binaries interchangably on linux
2020-12-07 19:05:42 +0100 <maerwald> for the purpose of execution
2020-12-07 19:05:43 +0100cosimone(~cosimone@93-47-228-249.ip115.fastwebnet.it)
2020-12-07 19:05:47 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Sure?
2020-12-07 19:05:53 +0100 <maerwald> the script just does some stuff and then invokes the binary
2020-12-07 19:05:55 +0100 <ShalokShalom> OK, first time that I heard this.
2020-12-07 19:05:59 +0100 <maerwald> yes, pretty sure
2020-12-07 19:06:02 +0100 <ShalokShalom> So this script invokes the binary, or what?
2020-12-07 19:06:11 +0100 <ShalokShalom> ok, fine
2020-12-07 19:06:20 +0100 <maerwald> if you check your /usr/bin you'll see tons of wrapper scripts
2020-12-07 19:06:21 +0100 <monochrom> I am not sure why this digression is productive.
2020-12-07 19:06:48 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Thanks a lot
2020-12-07 19:07:07 +0100 <ShalokShalom> monochrom: Cause I like to understand
2020-12-07 19:07:59 +0100 <monochrom> OK, here is one meta-level observation that can get you very far. Don't trust "meaningful" names like "bin" and "filter".
2020-12-07 19:08:48 +0100 <monochrom> The real meaning is always in how people actually end up using the thing, not what name people have coined for it.
2020-12-07 19:09:40 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Thats why I was asking
2020-12-07 19:10:26 +0100 <maerwald> Type families confused me forever. I'm always thinking of something social, but that's not what they are
2020-12-07 19:10:28 +0100 <monochrom> In fact I also chose the "filter" example very carefully. Half of the population would look at this code "filter even [1,2,3,4,5]" and guess from the name "filter" that it filters out even numbers, so the result is [1,3,5] the odd numbers.
2020-12-07 19:10:45 +0100 <merijn> monochrom: I have to check every time >.>
2020-12-07 19:10:56 +0100 <monochrom> But no, the author of "filter" pulled your legs with "meaningful" names. That code filters in the even numbers.
2020-12-07 19:11:03 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Why this digression.
2020-12-07 19:12:02 +0100 <monochrom> The digression that will end all digressions.
2020-12-07 19:12:40 +0100gproto23(~gproto23@unaffiliated/gproto23) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-12-07 19:13:17 +0100 <sm[m]> ShalokShalom: I think you're learning stuff, but in case you missed it: VS Code's Haskell extension's readme has good advice for your original q: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=haskell.haskell#requirements
2020-12-07 19:13:35 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Oh, thanks a lot
2020-12-07 19:14:05 +0100 <ShalokShalom> On the PATH is in any distro different and almost always also on /usr/bin
2020-12-07 19:14:11 +0100 <ShalokShalom> If I remember correctly
2020-12-07 19:14:13 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> ski: I was basically wondering if there was a way to do something other than the case statement here: https://dpaste.com/4R6KKB98G
2020-12-07 19:14:55 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> althought now I have a new question - that "do" is actually "ApplicativeDo", and the case statement fails b/c it tries to turn it into a monad. So how can I replace the case statement such that it is compatible with Applicitave?
2020-12-07 19:15:43 +0100 <dolio> Apply `pure` to the case statement.
2020-12-07 19:16:20 +0100 <solonarv> other than moving 'pure' out I think this is fine to leave as-is
2020-12-07 19:16:49 +0100 <dolio> It's not fine if it doesn't work.
2020-12-07 19:17:13 +0100 <solonarv> although you could of course change your EndComponent data type so that instead of these four alternatives, it has a single alternative with two 'Maybe _' fields
2020-12-07 19:17:47 +0100 <solonarv> dolio: yes, that is why I included the fix that's necessary to make it work
2020-12-07 19:18:23 +0100 <dolio> Oh, I see what you meant.
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2020-12-07 19:20:04 +0100darjeeling_(~darjeelin@122.245.123.202) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-07 19:20:59 +0100darjeeling_(~darjeelin@122.245.123.202)
2020-12-07 19:21:27 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:cc3:649d:beb7:1989)
2020-12-07 19:21:49 +0100Lycurgus(~niemand@cpe-45-46-137-210.buffalo.res.rr.com)
2020-12-07 19:22:33 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> hrm, I see
2020-12-07 19:22:49 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> solonarv: I would guess taht's simply a matter of taste, i.e. leaving the case or changing EndComponent
2020-12-07 19:23:23 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> though in either case you're just moving the check from one place to another, though moving it out of the case-statement may make it possible to do pattern matching, which may arguably be more clear
2020-12-07 19:24:25 +0100 <ShalokShalom> One more question: When I like to point the whole stack installation to my /usr/bin, is it there enough to point the whole .stack folder?
2020-12-07 19:24:36 +0100 <ShalokShalom> Since I dont see any dedicated stack binary
2020-12-07 19:24:59 +0100 <ShalokShalom> And the mentioned link says I should put the whole stack into the PATH
2020-12-07 19:25:17 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> dolio: yup, pure fixes it.
2020-12-07 19:25:48 +0100hekkaidekapus_(~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 19:26:10 +0100hekkaidekapus_(~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus)
2020-12-07 19:26:23 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-239.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2020-12-07 19:26:44 +0100 <monochrom> Yes, just add stuff to PATH
2020-12-07 19:28:44 +0100 <ShalokShalom> It failed to load ghc that way, but it works when I point the ghc script from stack directly into the PATH
2020-12-07 19:29:05 +0100 <merijn> ezzieyguywuf: tbh, I'd just move those do blocks into named where bindings and avoid ApplicativeDo entirely :)
2020-12-07 19:29:32 +0100 <merijn> Then you don't have to worry about pleasing the fickle ApplicativeDo gods
2020-12-07 19:30:09 +0100 <koz_> Yep, they are rather fickle.
2020-12-07 19:30:09 +0100 <maerwald> at least we're not short of GHC extensions
2020-12-07 19:30:29 +0100 <koz_> maerwald: To quote Edwin: "I'm using Haskell98, which means 'Haskell with 98 extensions enabled'".
2020-12-07 19:30:35 +0100fresheyeball(~isaac@c-71-237-105-37.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
2020-12-07 19:30:42 +0100 <maerwald> imagine a haskell source file that doesn't start with 20 language pragmas... looks n00b
2020-12-07 19:30:58 +0100 <monochrom> That would be mine.
2020-12-07 19:31:11 +0100 <ShalokShalom> haha
2020-12-07 19:31:36 +0100 <fresheyeball> so I am on NixOS have have nixops working just fine
2020-12-07 19:31:48 +0100 <fresheyeball> A co-worker is on Mac and I am trying to get nixops working for him
2020-12-07 19:31:52 +0100 <maerwald> fresheyeball: wrong channel? :D
2020-12-07 19:32:02 +0100 <fresheyeball> maerwald: you are right
2020-12-07 19:32:03 +0100ShalokShalom(b9110d05@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.185.17.13.5) (Quit: Connection closed)
2020-12-07 19:32:04 +0100 <fresheyeball> my bad
2020-12-07 19:32:06 +0100geekosaurhas exactly one extension in the file he uses the most, and is considering removing that
2020-12-07 19:32:12 +0100 <sm[m]> ShalokShalom: did stack's Windows 64 bit installer, linked from that readme, not put it in PATH ?
2020-12-07 19:32:34 +0100 <geekosaur> the other files don't use any extensions at all…
2020-12-07 19:33:27 +0100 <solonarv> maerwald: that's mine, because I put all my files in default-extensions! :p
2020-12-07 19:34:16 +0100 <maerwald> solonarv: that's the best way to confuse contributors why their code behaves weird
2020-12-07 19:34:16 +0100tenniscp25(~tenniscp2@134.196.209.118) ()
2020-12-07 19:34:43 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> merijn: but that's not how glguy does it in the documentation! (lol)
2020-12-07 19:35:46 +0100hans_(~hans@94-214-46-13.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-07 19:36:05 +0100glguytries to figure out what he did
2020-12-07 19:36:17 +0100 <monochrom> Although I promote putting extensions in the file that needs it, I doubt that contributor confusion has actually happened or will actually happen.
2020-12-07 19:36:42 +0100 <monochrom> My ideal is to do both.
2020-12-07 19:37:16 +0100 <maerwald> monochrom: I'm bold. I put Strict and StrictData in my default extensions and wonder if anyone will ever figure out
2020-12-07 19:37:27 +0100 <maerwald> until now, no one has
2020-12-07 19:37:51 +0100 <geekosaur> this sounds kinda xkcd
2020-12-07 19:37:57 +0100lotuseater(~user@ip-176-198-181-124.hsi05.unitymediagroup.de)
2020-12-07 19:40:22 +0100 <aplainzetakind> I vaguely recall being told off for worrying writing recursions in a tail-recursive form, I think to the effect that "ghc transforms such things anyway", but my memory may be wildly inaccurate. Is there any advantage to the less-readable, uglier first version here? https://gist.github.com/aplainzetakind/fb48c59ac152dff3f1dc97bd3374bd6c
2020-12-07 19:40:30 +0100 <aplainzetakind> worrying about*
2020-12-07 19:40:50 +0100st8less(~st8less@2603:a060:11fd:0:bc30:8045:1a73:6c08) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-12-07 19:41:28 +0100darjeeling_(~darjeelin@122.245.123.202) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-07 19:41:32 +0100p-core(~Thunderbi@2001:718:1e03:5128:2ab7:7f35:48a1:8515) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 19:41:42 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> glguy: lol, nah you didn't do anything. They were suggesting not using applicativedo
2020-12-07 19:41:53 +0100darjeeling_(~darjeelin@122.245.123.202)
2020-12-07 19:41:54 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> glguy: for a very particular thingy that I had posted earlier
2020-12-07 19:42:46 +0100 <maerwald> aplainzetakind: compare foldr and foldl
2020-12-07 19:43:19 +0100 <maerwald> There's also a semi helpful wiki page https://wiki.haskell.org/Tail_recursion
2020-12-07 19:44:08 +0100 <joel135> i sometimes wish i could point at a piece of code, and my computer would tell me the type
2020-12-07 19:44:21 +0100 <joel135> aside from top level
2020-12-07 19:44:28 +0100 <koz_> joel135: We have typed holes, which is close?
2020-12-07 19:44:31 +0100 <maerwald> joel135: you mean *expression*?
2020-12-07 19:44:33 +0100 <joel135> yes
2020-12-07 19:44:49 +0100 <maerwald> that worked with previous versions of haskell-ide-engine, but not anymore
2020-12-07 19:44:50 +0100 <joel135> yes on both counts
2020-12-07 19:45:03 +0100kuribas(~user@ptr-25vy0i816ietay3t8f3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 19:45:06 +0100 <maerwald> there's some on-going effort about it I believe
2020-12-07 19:45:25 +0100 <joel135> ok
2020-12-07 19:45:51 +0100 <aplainzetakind> maerwald: So, the first one is indeed supposed to use less memory then?
2020-12-07 19:46:44 +0100joaoh82_(~joaoh82@ip-213-127-88-241.ip.prioritytelecom.net)
2020-12-07 19:46:57 +0100pfurla(~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net) (Quit: gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2020-12-07 19:47:15 +0100 <koz_> Is there any particular reason why we don't have something like 'foldrMWithKey :: (Monad m) => (k -> v -> a -> m a) -> a -> HashMap k v -> m a'?
2020-12-07 19:48:10 +0100 <maerwald> aplainzetakind: I don't make memory predictions about haskell code :p
2020-12-07 19:48:32 +0100 <maerwald> foldl is almost never what you want, but foldl', but that's a different story
2020-12-07 19:49:17 +0100 <maerwald> https://wiki.haskell.org/Foldr_Foldl_Foldl%27
2020-12-07 19:50:03 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Quit: Connection closed)
2020-12-07 19:50:28 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-07 19:50:29 +0100joaoh82(~joaoh82@157-131-134-210.dedicated.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-07 19:50:30 +0100 <aplainzetakind> I'll turn on profiling and see if there's a difference.
2020-12-07 19:51:57 +0100Solarion(~solarion@fsf/member/solarion) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 19:52:23 +0100gehmehgeh(~ircuser1@gateway/tor-sasl/gehmehgeh) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 19:53:17 +0100 <monochrom> aplainzetakind: With lazy evaluation sometimes saving the day and some other times getting into the way, I would tell you off for expecting any simple "rule of thumb".
2020-12-07 19:53:31 +0100 <monochrom> Not even "don't use tail recursion".
2020-12-07 19:53:36 +0100L29Ah(~L29Ah@unaffiliated/l29ah) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-07 19:54:13 +0100 <jonn> Any insight on the huge lag whilst applying hints in VSCode? It takes minutes to apply a simple bracket removal.
2020-12-07 19:54:23 +0100 <maerwald> list fusion would be the next topic you'd want to look at
2020-12-07 19:54:25 +0100 <maerwald> https://www.stackbuilders.com/tutorials/haskell/ghc-optimization-and-fusion/
2020-12-07 19:54:37 +0100 <monochrom> "foldr (+) 0 [1..n}" and "foldl (+) 0 [1..n]" both use Θ(n) space. Their own difference is going through different journeys. This is a case when tail recursin doesn't help.
2020-12-07 19:54:56 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 19:55:11 +0100 <aplainzetakind> monochrom: Indeed, I think you were the one to tell me off.
2020-12-07 19:55:13 +0100 <maerwald> also, in haskell it's even hard to predict complexity :p
2020-12-07 19:55:16 +0100urek(~urek@2804:7f1:e10a:7d51:5d41:4512:81ee:9975) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 19:55:25 +0100 <monochrom> But foldl' will bring it back to Θ(1) space. In this case combining tail recursion and seq helps.
2020-12-07 19:55:30 +0100gehmehgeh(~ircuser1@gateway/tor-sasl/gehmehgeh)
2020-12-07 19:55:32 +0100LKoen_LKoen
2020-12-07 19:55:39 +0100ulidtko(~ulidtko@193.111.48.79)
2020-12-07 19:55:57 +0100urek(~urek@2804:7f1:e10a:7d51:5d41:4512:81ee:9975)
2020-12-07 19:56:10 +0100 <aplainzetakind> Anyway, if the answer is "it depends", that's easy to accept.
2020-12-07 19:56:19 +0100 <monochrom> However, you will want "take" and "map" to use non-tail recursion in "print (take 10 (map f mylist))", especially if mylist is much longer than 10.
2020-12-07 19:56:40 +0100johnyginthehouse(~johnygint@159.203.30.32)
2020-12-07 19:56:57 +0100 <aplainzetakind> I was uneasy about failing to understand a "rule of thumb".
2020-12-07 19:57:08 +0100 <monochrom> There are beginners who look at "map f (x:xs) = f x : map f xs" and think "this is non-tail recursion, let me improve it by adding an accumulator parameter for the answer".
2020-12-07 19:57:34 +0100 <monochrom> That "improvement" totally breaks.
2020-12-07 19:58:33 +0100 <ski> aplainzetakind : do they even give the same result ?
2020-12-07 19:59:33 +0100L29Ah(~L29Ah@unaffiliated/l29ah)
2020-12-07 20:00:14 +0100 <aplainzetakind> ski: I just noticed the second is off by one.
2020-12-07 20:00:26 +0100 <ski> yep, that's what i thought
2020-12-07 20:00:32 +0100 <aplainzetakind> Thanks.
2020-12-07 20:00:36 +0100ericsagn1(~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:bb34:5759:3e20:182c) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2020-12-07 20:01:22 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-07 20:03:21 +0100 <iqubic> How does one change map to use an accumulator?
2020-12-07 20:03:35 +0100berberman_(~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman)
2020-12-07 20:03:42 +0100 <merijn> You switch to fold...
2020-12-07 20:03:42 +0100 <ski> @type mapAccumL
2020-12-07 20:03:44 +0100 <lambdabot> Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c)
2020-12-07 20:03:50 +0100 <ski> @type mapAccumR
2020-12-07 20:03:52 +0100 <lambdabot> Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c)
2020-12-07 20:03:55 +0100 <Sonolin> I noticed StdGen doesn't seem to have an Eq instance... is there any issue with implementing that (I was planning to just utilize the show instance)?
2020-12-07 20:04:08 +0100 <ski> or use `mapM' with `State s'
2020-12-07 20:04:18 +0100berberman(~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2020-12-07 20:04:56 +0100 <ski> > join (==) (mkStdGen 1234)
2020-12-07 20:04:57 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-12-07 20:04:58 +0100 <lambdabot> True
2020-12-07 20:05:41 +0100pavonia(~user@unaffiliated/siracusa)
2020-12-07 20:05:43 +0100xelxebar(~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 20:06:42 +0100xelxebar(~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar)
2020-12-07 20:06:58 +0100christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-12-07 20:07:32 +0100 <iqubic> I wish Haskell had fully fledged dependent types already.
2020-12-07 20:08:23 +0100o1lo01ol1o(~o1lo01ol1@bl11-140-216.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 20:08:33 +0100cr3(~cr3@192-222-143-195.qc.cable.ebox.net) (Quit: leaving)
2020-12-07 20:08:49 +0100 <merijn> Why?
2020-12-07 20:10:23 +0100 <geekosaur> Sonolin, I see one documented and ski just demonstrated it a few minutes ago… why do you feel it's missing?
2020-12-07 20:10:28 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-12-07 20:10:55 +0100 <trepanger> iqubic: there's LiquidHaskell which is close (well, refinement types)
2020-12-07 20:11:19 +0100 <iqubic> I don't want refinement types though. I want actual dependent types.
2020-12-07 20:11:24 +0100 <merijn> trepanger: refinement types are rather different, tbh
2020-12-07 20:12:04 +0100 <merijn> iqubic: tbh, I wouldn't get your hopes up too much. I expect the ergonomics of Dependent Haskell will remain significantly inferior to languages designed from the start to accommodate dependent types...
2020-12-07 20:12:15 +0100atralheaven(~atralheav@37.48.90.208) ("WeeChat 2.7.1")
2020-12-07 20:12:19 +0100xelxebar_(~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar)
2020-12-07 20:12:31 +0100ericsagn1(~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:2d4d:701:5c5e:b872)
2020-12-07 20:12:51 +0100matryoshka(~matryoshk@2606:6080:1002:8:3285:30e:de43:8809) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2020-12-07 20:12:59 +0100 <Athas> I actually dread the day Haskell gets dependent types!
2020-12-07 20:13:14 +0100 <merijn> I expect most people who say they want dependent Haskell really just want "a Haskell-like language designed for dependent types" (aka Idris), rather than whatever Dependent Haskell will look like
2020-12-07 20:13:16 +0100 <iqubic> Athas: Why do you dread that?
2020-12-07 20:13:18 +0100 <merijn> Athas: Same
2020-12-07 20:13:19 +0100 <Athas> Not due to any specific problem, more because I cannot think it will actually end up being nice to use.
2020-12-07 20:13:34 +0100 <iqubic> Yeah, I suppose that's the issue.
2020-12-07 20:13:42 +0100whatisRT(~whatisRT@2002:5b41:6a33:0:483b:3e3a:b1be:f49a) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-07 20:13:43 +0100 <Athas> I like dependent types and I like languages with roughly the ML/Haskell-level of types, but I don't like mixing the two.
2020-12-07 20:13:48 +0100 <merijn> iqubic: Because hacking dependent types into GHC considerably complicates the compiler, the surface language will probably not be that nice to use
2020-12-07 20:13:54 +0100 <iqubic> Right. I see.
2020-12-07 20:14:01 +0100wwwww(~wwwww@unaffiliated/wwwww) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-07 20:14:03 +0100matryoshka(~matryoshk@184.75.223.227)
2020-12-07 20:14:18 +0100 <Athas> If dependent types would also complicate the GHC core language, then I will _really_ worry, but I don't recall anyone saying that they would.
2020-12-07 20:14:28 +0100 <merijn> iqubic: Like, do you want "shitty hasochism-like dependent types" or do you just wish Haskell had dependent types elegantly integrated? Because I don't think you will get the latter :)
2020-12-07 20:14:41 +0100 <monochrom> aplainzetakind: Your n+n' is kept unevaluated, that will take up room, similar to foldl (+). If you don't mind changing the order of parameters to "go kss n", you can use "go kss' $! n+n' " to kill the laziness on n+n'
2020-12-07 20:14:46 +0100 <iqubic> I see the issue I have.
2020-12-07 20:14:50 +0100 <trepanger> Could idris call Haskell functions and vice-versa?
2020-12-07 20:14:59 +0100 <dolio> It'll probably be better than hasochism. Not sure how much, though.
2020-12-07 20:15:03 +0100xelxebar(~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 20:15:23 +0100 <merijn> iqubic: And "considerably complicating the compiler for not nice to use Dependent Types" as oppossed to spending more time in getting GHC nicer is a poor trade-off imo :)
2020-12-07 20:15:23 +0100 <iqubic> What is hasochism?
2020-12-07 20:15:34 +0100matryoshka(~matryoshk@184.75.223.227) (Client Quit)
2020-12-07 20:15:39 +0100 <Athas> A serious argument can be made that GHC Haskell is already dependently typed (Stephanie Weirich is a proponent of this), which would make GHC Haskell the most shitty dependently typed language in use.
2020-12-07 20:15:41 +0100 <aplainzetakind> monochrom: Can I just do `go !n kss =` when defining go?
2020-12-07 20:15:47 +0100 <Athas> I hope Haskell isn't going to end up like C++.
2020-12-07 20:15:47 +0100 <monochrom> Ah, yes too.
2020-12-07 20:15:48 +0100wwwww(~wwwww@unaffiliated/wwwww)
2020-12-07 20:15:50 +0100 <dolio> It's a paper by Conor McBride about the fake dependent typing you can do in GHC now.
2020-12-07 20:15:52 +0100 <merijn> iqubic: The original paper on faking dependent types in Haskell was titled "hasochism" (a pun on masochism, because it's so painful to use)
2020-12-07 20:15:59 +0100matryoshka(~matryoshk@2606:6080:1002:8:3285:30e:de43:8809)
2020-12-07 20:16:11 +0100 <iqubic> Right. Isn't that just Singletons?
2020-12-07 20:16:22 +0100 <merijn> Singletons spawned from that, yes
2020-12-07 20:16:30 +0100 <ski> @where she
2020-12-07 20:16:30 +0100 <lambdabot> http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/she/
2020-12-07 20:16:51 +0100Eduard_Munteanu(~Eduard_Mu@2001:420:c0c0:1006::173) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 20:17:17 +0100 <merijn> iqubic: Also, a bunch of people working on dependent haskell are getting papers out of it. How will it stay maintained when there's nothing more to publish and all the phd students get jobs? :)
2020-12-07 20:17:31 +0100 <iqubic> I don't know.
2020-12-07 20:17:40 +0100 <monochrom> I know.
2020-12-07 20:17:44 +0100 <Sonolin> geekosaur hmm I got an error for no Eq instance but maybe I'm just out of date or not importing a module
2020-12-07 20:17:56 +0100 <monochrom> Even Backpack is on the border of going bitrot now.
2020-12-07 20:17:56 +0100MOSCOS(~MOSCOS@122.54.107.175) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 20:18:17 +0100 <Athas> merijn: that is probably my own worry. GHC is already the second-most buggy compiler I interact with, and I'm worried about the maintenance resources getting stretched even thinner.
2020-12-07 20:18:23 +0100MOSCOS(~MOSCOS@122.54.107.175)
2020-12-07 20:18:25 +0100noIOBeforeBedtim(dissatisfi@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cbrqqmkjyuflpaya)
2020-12-07 20:18:57 +0100 <aplainzetakind> How do I get cabal to v2-style build dependencies with profiling enabled in a unified way, from the .cabal or cabal.project file?
2020-12-07 20:19:22 +0100 <Athas> aplainzetakind: I would use cabal.project.
2020-12-07 20:19:22 +0100 <monochrom> cabal.project
2020-12-07 20:19:25 +0100 <aplainzetakind> I added a profiling: True to the package satnza in cabal.project but that didn't seem to do anything.
2020-12-07 20:19:31 +0100 <monochrom> or even cabal.project.local
2020-12-07 20:19:47 +0100 <merijn> aplainzetakind: "cabal build --enable-profiling" or "cabal configure --enable-profiling"
2020-12-07 20:20:03 +0100 <Athas> Is Backpack used for any popular library yet? It can't be used as a hidden internal implementation detail, as I understand it.
2020-12-07 20:20:18 +0100b3z(~b3z@vmd41962.contaboserver.net) (Quit: cya)
2020-12-07 20:20:21 +0100howdoi(uid224@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-deizflgbbgyoqway)
2020-12-07 20:20:27 +0100b3zi(~b3z@vmd41962.contaboserver.net)
2020-12-07 20:20:29 +0100 <merijn> Athas: Probably not, and without ezyang pushing it, I fear it may just die
2020-12-07 20:20:33 +0100 <monochrom> IIUC hackage doesn't play well with Backpack so you can't even upload a Backpack-using library.
2020-12-07 20:21:10 +0100 <aplainzetakind> Failed to load interface for ‘GHC.Integer.Type’\nPerhaps you haven't installed the "p_dyn" libraries for package ‘integer-wired-in’?
2020-12-07 20:21:12 +0100 <dolio> That doesn't sound right.
2020-12-07 20:21:14 +0100 <Athas> Stack doesn't support Backpack at all.
2020-12-07 20:21:22 +0100 <dolio> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unpacked-containers
2020-12-07 20:21:25 +0100 <monochrom> And oh of course the other feature that died after finishing a PhD is plugins.
2020-12-07 20:21:25 +0100 <aplainzetakind> I get this with --enable-profiling
2020-12-07 20:21:27 +0100Lycurgus(~niemand@cpe-45-46-137-210.buffalo.res.rr.com) (Quit: Exeunt)
2020-12-07 20:22:07 +0100 <monochrom> Ah OK sorry dolio, thanks.
2020-12-07 20:22:32 +0100urek__(~urek@2804:7f1:e10a:7d51:5d41:4512:81ee:9975)
2020-12-07 20:22:45 +0100 <Athas> Aren't plugins used for a few things?
2020-12-07 20:22:50 +0100 <geekosaur> aplainzetakind, you need to install ghc for profiling sd werrl, in partcular the RTS, base, and integer libraries
2020-12-07 20:22:54 +0100 <geekosaur> *as well
2020-12-07 20:23:12 +0100 <Athas> Plugins seem less maintenance-intensive, which is a good design principle when building thesisware.
2020-12-07 20:23:34 +0100 <merijn> aplainzetakind: Are you using dynamic linking? I'm not sure the profiled+dynamic flavour is build by default
2020-12-07 20:23:42 +0100 <geekosaur> my poor little laptop is linking…
2020-12-07 20:24:39 +0100geekosaursuddenly wonders if that is Arch
2020-12-07 20:24:52 +0100 <Athas> One of the great unsolved mysteries in computer science is why linking is so goddamn slow.
2020-12-07 20:25:15 +0100 <monochrom> I think Google's gold solved it.
2020-12-07 20:25:21 +0100urek(~urek@2804:7f1:e10a:7d51:5d41:4512:81ee:9975) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-12-07 20:25:22 +0100 <aplainzetakind> merijn: I have no idea if I'm using dynamic linking.
2020-12-07 20:25:34 +0100 <geekosaur> well, in my case it's because tiny 2GB laptop with chrome already running
2020-12-07 20:25:41 +0100 <aplainzetakind> geekosaur: Do you mean I should rebuild/reinstall ghc itself?
2020-12-07 20:25:44 +0100sagax(~sagax_nb@213.138.71.146)
2020-12-07 20:26:22 +0100 <Sonolin> ah I see the Eq instance is in random 1.2... I just have to update the package
2020-12-07 20:26:22 +0100 <merijn> aplainzetakind: distro?
2020-12-07 20:26:31 +0100 <aplainzetakind> gentoo
2020-12-07 20:26:34 +0100 <aplainzetakind> ghcup
2020-12-07 20:26:36 +0100 <jonn> I think that people who want DH _do want_ DH. It's kind of like saying that people who use Scala to be productive and apply FP where it matters don't really want a JVM language. A big benefit of DH is that it's still Haskell, and that's it.
2020-12-07 20:26:39 +0100 <geekosaur> aplainzetakind, I sincerely doubt "rebuild" but wonder where you got your ghc. And why you are using dynamic linking, which is not the default
2020-12-07 20:26:42 +0100chele(~chele@ip5b416ea2.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 20:26:52 +0100f-a(~f-a@151.34.68.34)
2020-12-07 20:27:13 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-12-07 20:27:44 +0100 <jonn> I personally really don't get all the FUD about DH in the community, especially since work on DH helps make compiler more decoupled and more maintainable.
2020-12-07 20:27:51 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-12-07 20:28:14 +0100 <Athas> jonn: can you elaborate on the last point? I'm not sure what you mean by "decoupled" here?
2020-12-07 20:28:29 +0100 <Athas> Surely DH mostly means a larger source language and a more complex type checker?
2020-12-07 20:28:48 +0100 <aplainzetakind> (GHC version 8.8.3 for x86_64-unknown-linux) is what it says at the point of panic, for the version.
2020-12-07 20:29:08 +0100 <aplainzetakind> I don't think the ghcup-downloaded binary would be dynamically linked, would it?
2020-12-07 20:29:18 +0100 <monochrom> No, it isn't.
2020-12-07 20:29:42 +0100 <jonn> Athas: there was a big refactoring last year that concerned desugaring, that made architecturally messy code in GHC less messy, I could go through commits and find examples, but you can also trust me on that because I'm too lazy.
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2020-12-07 20:30:13 +0100 <monochrom> For least confusion, if you already use ghcup, it's best to remove gentoo's GHC (or whatever linux distro it is).
2020-12-07 20:30:34 +0100 <monochrom> If you still want to keep that, at least play with PATH to give ghcup's GHC higher priority.
2020-12-07 20:30:42 +0100 <aplainzetakind> monochrom: I never installed a distro ghc.
2020-12-07 20:30:49 +0100xff0x_(~fox@2001:1a81:5262:300:4a5e:7d26:3705:e867)
2020-12-07 20:30:56 +0100 <aplainzetakind> I set haskell stuff up via ghcup
2020-12-07 20:31:16 +0100 <Athas> jonn: I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious. But I'm not seeing how that is DH-related. Is it just that DH is motivating this work?
2020-12-07 20:31:25 +0100 <jonn> Yes
2020-12-07 20:31:58 +0100 <aplainzetakind> `which ghc` gives me the one under ~/.ghcup
2020-12-07 20:32:29 +0100 <jonn> DH is not only adding complexity, but also is checking the engineering of GHC, if you will. It's impossible to add that much complexity without addressing some tech debt. AFAIU, GHC is mostly awesome, to be fair.
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2020-12-07 20:33:41 +0100 <jonn> Where “awesome” means “can be non-trivially extended by people who didn't write it without many refactorings”. Some refactorings are required, but none of those are about “changing GHC s.t. it fits DH”, all of those are “changing GHC s.t. it's better”.
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2020-12-07 20:36:51 +0100 <monochrom> aplainzetakind: Some unknown thing is telling GHC or cabal-install to use dynamic linking, I don't know what, but it is certainly abnormal, on close-to-default settings the error doesn't happen.
2020-12-07 20:38:32 +0100 <aplainzetakind> Would getting and switching to 8.10 be something meaningful to try?
2020-12-07 20:38:37 +0100 <monochrom> But $HOME/.cabal/config is one place you want to check.
2020-12-07 20:38:41 +0100 <monochrom> No.
2020-12-07 20:39:41 +0100dxld(~dxld@rush.pub.dxld.at) (Quit: Bye)
2020-12-07 20:40:32 +0100 <aplainzetakind> I searched config for 'dyn', every occurrence is on a commented-out line.
2020-12-07 20:40:38 +0100 <aplainzetakind> What else to look for?
2020-12-07 20:41:25 +0100joaoh82_(~joaoh82@ip-213-127-88-241.ip.prioritytelecom.net) ()
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2020-12-07 20:41:57 +0100 <merijn> Try "cabal user-config diff" and see if anything is non-default :)
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2020-12-07 20:43:09 +0100 <aplainzetakind> documentation: True; overwrite-policy: always :)
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2020-12-07 20:44:16 +0100 <joel135> what is DH?
2020-12-07 20:44:22 +0100 <monochrom> dependent haskell
2020-12-07 20:44:25 +0100 <joel135> ok
2020-12-07 20:44:29 +0100 <sclv> aplainzetakind: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/2827 ?
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2020-12-07 20:44:41 +0100 <sclv> maybe you're invoking profiling in a weird/wrong way and so hitting a weird ghc issue?
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2020-12-07 20:47:27 +0100 <aplainzetakind> sclv: Indeed. Removed -prof from ghc-options and it worked.
2020-12-07 20:47:30 +0100 <aplainzetakind> Thanks.
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2020-12-07 21:07:56 +0100 <aplainzetakind> Can flags defined in .cabal be passed to conditionals in cabal.project*? I want to be able to toggle `profiling: True` and `ghc-options: -fprof-auto -rtsopts` with a single flag. What's the proper way to do it?
2020-12-07 21:08:15 +0100 <incertia> so i have `class Solved (n :: Nat) where solver :: String -> Bool -> String` and i want to do type level wizardry to check if i have a solver instance for a particular problem number. in particular. i want to write dictFor :: forall (n :: Nat). (Solved 1, Solved 2, ..., KnownNat n) => Proxy n -> Maybe (Dict (Solved n))
2020-12-07 21:08:20 +0100 <incertia> but dictFor appears hard
2020-12-07 21:09:02 +0100 <incertia> the only way i can get it to typecheck is if i use (Solved n) in the constraint which defeats the purpose
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2020-12-07 21:09:59 +0100 <sclv> you should probably just use two different cabal.project.local files?
2020-12-07 21:10:53 +0100 <aplainzetakind> sclv: I suppose it doesn't matter if I put ghc-options in cabal.project* or foo.cabal?
2020-12-07 21:11:23 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-12-07 21:11:42 +0100 <dcoutts> in one case (the foo.cabal file) it is the author role, in the other it is the package builder role
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2020-12-07 21:12:49 +0100 <aplainzetakind> So I can define flags in .project* as well?
2020-12-07 21:13:08 +0100 <dcoutts> So as the package author you think the flag should always be there, then put it in the .cabal file. If it makes sense to leave it up to the person building the package as part of some other project, let them put it in their cabal.project file.
2020-12-07 21:13:18 +0100christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-12-07 21:13:33 +0100 <aplainzetakind> I see. Thanks.
2020-12-07 21:13:33 +0100 <dcoutts> aplainzetakind: some things are exclusive to one or the other, some overlap. So it depends on what you're trying to specify.
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2020-12-07 21:15:03 +0100 <dminuoso> aplainzetakind: Think of .cabal configuring the package and .project* configuring your own cabal-install.
2020-12-07 21:15:19 +0100 <dminuoso> It's a good approximation I'd say.
2020-12-07 21:15:26 +0100 <exarkun> is there a conduit combinator like `ConduitT a b m r -> ConduitT a b m r -> ConduitT a b m r` such that the result first produces elements from the first arg and then, after it is exhausted, from the second arg?
2020-12-07 21:16:25 +0100 <aplainzetakind> Ah it seems profiling: True makes ghc-options redundant anyway.
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2020-12-07 21:16:42 +0100 <tomjaguarpaw> exarkun: Isn't it >>?
2020-12-07 21:17:25 +0100 <dcoutts> aplainzetakind: so profiling is a perfect example of something you want to do as the builder of a package not the author. It's not something you'd want all uses of the package to always use.
2020-12-07 21:17:36 +0100 <exarkun> Ugh. As in standard monad sequencing. Sure sounds like it might be.
2020-12-07 21:18:01 +0100 <dminuoso> ConduitT f >>= g = ConduitT $ \h -> f $ \a -> unConduitT (g a) h
2020-12-07 21:18:03 +0100 <dminuoso> mMM
2020-12-07 21:18:51 +0100 <tomjaguarpaw> I'm not familiar with conduit, but that's what it is in streaming, and I think pipes.
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2020-12-07 21:19:25 +0100 <merijn> aplainzetakind: "profiling: True" is equivalent to --enable-profiling and cabal automatically append relevant profiling flags if you do that
2020-12-07 21:20:29 +0100jonatan(~nate@h77-53-70-163.cust.a3fiber.se)
2020-12-07 21:20:46 +0100carlomagno(~cararell@148.87.23.5)
2020-12-07 21:20:46 +0100 <merijn> aplainzetakind: I don't quite agree with dminuoso's description, I'd say .cabal is the specification of the package as a whole, but I'd instead describe "cabal.project" as a *specific* build configuration of that package (for, say, development) and cabal.project.local as local overrides even for that
2020-12-07 21:22:19 +0100 <merijn> aplainzetakind: So if you have a repo with 4 packages that depend on each other you can use cabal.project do have a build configuration that uses the versions from the repo (rather than released ones), with the idea that cabal.project gets committed to the repo for anyone hacking on it. And cabal.project.local lets you locally override that "persisted" build configuration for the sake of debugging,
2020-12-07 21:22:23 +0100 <maerwald> well, many packages these days cannot be built without cabal.project, so...
2020-12-07 21:22:25 +0100 <merijn> profiling, or whatever else ad hoc things you wanna do
2020-12-07 21:22:26 +0100 <maerwald> the line is blurred
2020-12-07 21:22:56 +0100 <merijn> maerwald: In what sense?
2020-12-07 21:23:05 +0100 <maerwald> merijn: packages and git dependencies
2020-12-07 21:23:29 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8)
2020-12-07 21:23:41 +0100 <boxscape> % (() `undefined`) `seq` ()
2020-12-07 21:23:41 +0100 <yahb> boxscape: *** Exception: Prelude.undefined; CallStack (from HasCallStack):; error, called at libraries/base/GHC/Err.hs:79:14 in base:GHC.Err; undefined, called at <interactive>:85:2 in interactive:Ghci49
2020-12-07 21:23:45 +0100 <merijn> maerwald: Yes, but those generally aren't on hackage or distributed
2020-12-07 21:23:52 +0100 <maerwald> correct
2020-12-07 21:23:55 +0100 <boxscape> how exactly is this section desugared such that this leads to an exception?
2020-12-07 21:24:36 +0100 <merijn> boxscape: That's just "undefined () `seq` ()"?"
2020-12-07 21:24:44 +0100 <merijn> How would it not produce an error?
2020-12-07 21:24:46 +0100 <boxscape> ah
2020-12-07 21:24:55 +0100 <boxscape> merijn report defines sections as lambdas, doesn't it?
2020-12-07 21:25:04 +0100 <merijn> boxscape: Yes, and GHC doesn't follow that
2020-12-07 21:25:04 +0100 <boxscape> but I guess ghc doesn't do that
2020-12-07 21:25:06 +0100 <boxscape> I see
2020-12-07 21:25:17 +0100 <solonarv> IIRC this is actually controlled by a language extension
2020-12-07 21:25:22 +0100 <merijn> https://github.com/quchen/articles/blob/master/fbut.md#a-op-is-not-x---a-op-x
2020-12-07 21:25:29 +0100 <merijn> solonarv: Nope
2020-12-07 21:25:32 +0100 <boxscape> thanks
2020-12-07 21:26:11 +0100 <merijn> solonarv: It's hard to find a non-artificial case where this matters, tbh
2020-12-07 21:26:23 +0100 <geekosaur> solonarv may be thinking of PostfixOperators which further abuses how ghc implements sections
2020-12-07 21:26:33 +0100 <solonarv> that is the one I was thinking of
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2020-12-07 21:35:14 +0100 <idnar> :t Data.Map.fromListWith (<>) . fmap (fmap Data.Set.singleton)
2020-12-07 21:35:16 +0100 <lambdabot> (Ord k, Ord a) => [(k, a)] -> M.Map k (S.Set a)
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2020-12-07 21:50:50 +0100 <aplainzetakind> merijn: Just saw those. Thanks for the explanation.
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2020-12-07 21:56:48 +0100 <texasmynsted> merijn: nice link. I had not seen that before.
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2020-12-07 22:24:06 +0100 <monochrom> maerwald: I have found that "cabal install" honours parts of cabal.project.local and omits other parts.
2020-12-07 22:24:23 +0100 <merijn> monochrom: That sounds like a bug
2020-12-07 22:24:32 +0100 <monochrom> I have top-level "profiling: True", that is not honoured.
2020-12-07 22:24:55 +0100 <monochrom> I have top-level "program-options", under it "ghc-options: -rtsopts". That is honoured.
2020-12-07 22:25:28 +0100bliminse(~bliminse@host86-134-63-68.range86-134.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-12-07 22:25:33 +0100 <monochrom> If I change "program-options" to "package hyde", that is not honoured. (My package name is hyde)
2020-12-07 22:26:34 +0100bliminse(~bliminse@host86-134-63-68.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
2020-12-07 22:26:36 +0100 <maerwald> merijn: it isn't, because install makes an sdist and switches to temp dirs before really building
2020-12-07 22:26:48 +0100 <maerwald> so it honors the part about dependencies
2020-12-07 22:26:52 +0100 <maerwald> but not so much flags
2020-12-07 22:27:14 +0100 <maerwald> which proves my point that it's not very well defined as a thing
2020-12-07 22:27:37 +0100 <monochrom> OK, now let me test again but call it cabal.project
2020-12-07 22:28:00 +0100 <merijn> flags aren't supposed to affect the public interface anyway (yes, I know people dumbly abuse it for this anyway)
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2020-12-07 22:30:32 +0100 <monochrom> Same result.
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2020-12-07 22:43:56 +0100hekkaidekapus_hekkaidekapus
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2020-12-07 22:44:16 +0100 <maralorn> Can someone help me with this type error? https://termbin.com/cqxd, this is the function, but ghc does not complain about any of the pattern signatures: https://paste.linuxlounge.net/TT7A
2020-12-07 22:45:35 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-07 22:45:42 +0100 <maralorn> Ah, type Mn n = M n n might be relevant, and I am using import Numeric.LinearAlgebra.Static
2020-12-07 22:46:27 +0100 <glguy> maralorn: Do you have ScopedTypeVariables enabled?
2020-12-07 22:46:33 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@213.178.26.41) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 22:46:36 +0100 <maralorn> Yes
2020-12-07 22:46:44 +0100matryoshka(~matryoshk@184.75.223.227) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
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2020-12-07 22:46:56 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@213.178.26.41)
2020-12-07 22:47:31 +0100 <maralorn> Here is the whole file https://paste.linuxlounge.net/OS3A
2020-12-07 22:48:02 +0100 <maralorn> Most of it typechecks beside tpsi and traceRight.
2020-12-07 22:48:25 +0100 <maralorn> And do blame me for bad variable names, this is mathematics, we have cultivated bad variable names.
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2020-12-07 22:50:01 +0100LKoen(~LKoen@228.162.9.109.rev.sfr.net) (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”)
2020-12-07 22:52:32 +0100 <maralorn> Huh, I got it to work with AllowAmbiguousTypes.
2020-12-07 22:52:37 +0100borne(~fritjof@200116b864e55d009ba1d43461655289.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-07 22:52:50 +0100andi-(~andi-@NixOS/user/andi-) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-07 22:53:00 +0100 <maralorn> It was my impression this is a bad idea.
2020-12-07 22:53:00 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Quit: Connection closed)
2020-12-07 22:53:01 +0100 <maralorn> But it works. /o\
2020-12-07 22:53:24 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-07 22:53:29 +0100 <incertia> AllowAmbiguousTypes is less bad than it sounds
2020-12-07 22:54:19 +0100 <koz_> Yeah, it basically means 'you'll have to tell GHC what you want type-wise sometimes'.
2020-12-07 22:54:20 +0100 <jared-w> It's kinda necessary if you want a "type-appliations driven" API with empty data types. It has other fun uses too, I believe
2020-12-07 22:56:08 +0100 <incertia> a type is ambiguous if at the call site you cannot concretize every type variable
2020-12-07 22:56:40 +0100 <incertia> e.g. f :: Show a => (), f = ()
2020-12-07 22:56:53 +0100 <incertia> to use f, you just write f
2020-12-07 22:57:02 +0100 <incertia> but GHC has no idea what type a should be
2020-12-07 22:57:04 +0100 <incertia> hence ambiguous
2020-12-07 22:57:24 +0100 <merijn> jared-w: TypeApplications driven API is a funny way of say "brittle API prone to breakage due to all sorts of details that most package authors consider out of PVP scope" ;)
2020-12-07 22:57:56 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 22:58:09 +0100Maxdaman1us(~Maxdamant@unaffiliated/maxdamantus)
2020-12-07 22:58:14 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@213.178.26.41) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-07 22:58:21 +0100 <incertia> on that note im sort of hitting a wall
2020-12-07 22:58:37 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@213.178.26.41)
2020-12-07 22:58:57 +0100 <incertia> i want to represent having solved a particular problem number as a typeclass instance and then look up the particular instance when i run a solver for all problems
2020-12-07 22:59:35 +0100 <incertia> but i can't seem to get the constraints to work out right
2020-12-07 23:00:10 +0100 <jared-w> merijn: as if tons of packages weren't breaking due to "out of PVP scope" semi frequently anyway :p
2020-12-07 23:00:16 +0100knupfer(~Thunderbi@i5E86B4BF.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 23:00:46 +0100 <maerwald> if you rely on PVP *today* you must be either new, or really nuts :p
2020-12-07 23:00:47 +0100 <jared-w> hmm. Any owners of the Haskell organization on github around?
2020-12-07 23:01:08 +0100 <incertia> e.g. suppose i have solve :: Int -> IO () whose goal is to check to see if the problem number has a Solved instance and then call that particular instance
2020-12-07 23:01:28 +0100 <glguy> jared-w: have you checked in #haskell-infrastructure ?
2020-12-07 23:01:29 +0100 <incertia> class Solved (n :: Nat) where solver :: String -> String
2020-12-07 23:01:57 +0100 <jared-w> glguy: TIL there's a #haskell-infrastructure. That'd be the place to ask :)
2020-12-07 23:02:02 +0100 <maerwald> I wouldn't even trust aeson to adhere to PVP, which is why json roundtrip tests aren't enough. Ppl should write unit tests again.
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2020-12-07 23:02:53 +0100 <merijn> maerwald: You can *use* PVP bounds without *relying* on them
2020-12-07 23:03:04 +0100 <maerwald> that's the only thing you should do :p
2020-12-07 23:03:36 +0100 <merijn> You can't rely on anything, maybe cosmic rays bitflipped your executable
2020-12-07 23:03:51 +0100 <merijn> Maybe your GHC got "Reflections on Trusting Trust"-ed
2020-12-07 23:03:52 +0100sparsity(5eae2591@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.94.174.37.145) (Quit: Connection closed)
2020-12-07 23:03:54 +0100son0p(~son0p@181.136.122.143)
2020-12-07 23:04:25 +0100 <maralorn> Okay
2020-12-07 23:04:32 +0100 <monochrom> Simpler: Cosmic ray flipped a version bound on Hackage.
2020-12-07 23:04:56 +0100 <jared-w> Cosmic ray? You mean hackage revisions? /s
2020-12-07 23:05:01 +0100 <monochrom> Even simpler: Magnetic error flipped a version bound on Hackage.
2020-12-07 23:05:27 +0100 <maerwald> merijn: that's what makes a good programmer: being paranoid af, but managed to escape asylum :p
2020-12-07 23:05:47 +0100 <monochrom> Sounds like Gödel.
2020-12-07 23:06:24 +0100 <monochrom> Ironically, he might be better off inside an asylum.
2020-12-07 23:06:25 +0100star_cloud(~star_clou@ec2-34-220-44-120.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-12-07 23:06:39 +0100 <monochrom> because at least someone would force him to eat.
2020-12-07 23:06:50 +0100mounty(~mounty@2001:8000:2f59:0:a021:3f31:5fd8:b032)
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2020-12-07 23:07:04 +0100 <maerwald> good that you reminded me. I forget that I have a body
2020-12-07 23:07:25 +0100sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
2020-12-07 23:07:54 +0100 <koz_> maerwald is ghost?
2020-12-07 23:08:37 +0100rprije(~rprije@14-201-170-17.tpgi.com.au)
2020-12-07 23:09:04 +0100andi-(~andi-@NixOS/user/andi-)
2020-12-07 23:09:13 +0100 <monochrom> incertia: If you do that, you are taking a dynamically determined term-level number to a supposed-to-be-statically-known type-level number. You will have to compromise with an existential type, which is SomeNat in GHC.TypeNats or TypeLits.
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2020-12-07 23:12:15 +0100 <monochrom> Isn't it so much simpler WLOG to KISS to a fully dynamic dictionary that just happens to be hardcoded. solved = Map.fromList [(1, solution1), (2, solution2), ...]
2020-12-07 23:13:40 +0100 <nfd9001> hey, so, i was using containers' Data.Graph for aoc day7, and found it somewhat lacking for that purpose: there were apparently no ways to decorate edges or vertices in a way powerful enough to help much with dealing with numbers of bags. obvs for that i could just use a simpler structure like a basic map (and i did), but i was wondering if y'all knew any richer (and maybe loosely similar) graph libs
2020-12-07 23:14:04 +0100 <monochrom> fgl is rich
2020-12-07 23:14:19 +0100 <monochrom> It is also counterintuitive
2020-12-07 23:14:48 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-12-07 23:14:52 +0100 <monochrom> I don't think anyone has published a different take.
2020-12-07 23:14:58 +0100mputz(~Thunderbi@dslb-088-064-063-125.088.064.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Quit: mputz)
2020-12-07 23:15:05 +0100mbomba(~mbomba@bras-base-toroon2719w-grc-53-142-114-5-26.dsl.bell.ca)
2020-12-07 23:15:11 +0100 <nfd9001> hehe, say what you will about Data.Graph, it's *very* intuitive
2020-12-07 23:15:11 +0100 <dminuoso> A coproduct is to choice as product is to ___?
2020-12-07 23:15:31 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-07 23:15:36 +0100 <nfd9001> ~~cochoice~~
2020-12-07 23:15:39 +0100 <dminuoso> haha
2020-12-07 23:15:42 +0100 <nfd9001> sorry :D
2020-12-07 23:15:51 +0100 <monochrom> It is not counterintutive if you stick to its pre-canned graph algorithms eg bfs dfs sp (single-source shortest path).
2020-12-07 23:15:52 +0100 <dminuoso> That was a good one. :)
2020-12-07 23:16:23 +0100 <dminuoso> It seems there's a lacking clear term for cochoice. Perhaps "combination"?
2020-12-07 23:16:43 +0100 <monochrom> But if you try to use its "fold" to write your own algorithms, you have to learn a new concept.
2020-12-07 23:17:09 +0100 <monochrom> fgl ≠ Data.Graph
2020-12-07 23:17:40 +0100 <nfd9001> coproduct is a sum type is a choice is a union, a product is a product type is a tuple is a struct
2020-12-07 23:17:55 +0100 <dminuoso> I mean this also shows in profunctor terminology
2020-12-07 23:18:09 +0100 <incertia> monochrom: that's what i currently do but it's so much cooler to just be like "i'll just import an instance and have the code be automatically generated"
2020-12-07 23:18:09 +0100 <dminuoso> Where you have Choice and Strong (ugh)
2020-12-07 23:18:39 +0100 <dminuoso> nfd9001: Im just looking for intuitive terms that would explain this to say a non-programmer.
2020-12-07 23:18:58 +0100 <dminuoso> Say if I was to explain the two dimensions of ADTs, I could explain sum types as encoding a choice
2020-12-07 23:19:03 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@213.178.26.41) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-07 23:19:12 +0100 <nfd9001> i mean, cochoice is a little intuitive. what's the opposite of choosing between pie and ice cream? ala mode
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2020-12-07 23:19:35 +0100hexfive(~hexfive@50-47-142-195.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net)
2020-12-07 23:19:38 +0100 <monochrom> dminuoso, I have two joking ideas. 1. hice (= choice - co). 2. prochoice.
2020-12-07 23:19:38 +0100 <dminuoso> I dont know about "opposite of choosing" - the duality stems from a categorical point of view
2020-12-07 23:19:58 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-07 23:20:08 +0100 <nfd9001> choosing-with-the-arrows-backwards
2020-12-07 23:20:23 +0100 <monochrom> opposite of choosing is forcing
2020-12-07 23:20:44 +0100 <dminuoso> monochrom: I guess that gets into the right area.
2020-12-07 23:20:50 +0100 <dminuoso> You're forced to pick two things.
2020-12-07 23:20:57 +0100 <dminuoso> As opposed to chosing between them.
2020-12-07 23:21:18 +0100neiluj(~jco@unaffiliated/neiluj) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2020-12-07 23:21:27 +0100 <monochrom> I think of a two-person game, and sometimes the opponent forces their choice on you.
2020-12-07 23:21:31 +0100 <dminuoso> Interesting that neither English nor German seems to have a good verb here
2020-12-07 23:21:53 +0100 <monochrom> inflict
2020-12-07 23:21:57 +0100neiluj(~jco@91-167-203-101.subs.proxad.net)
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2020-12-07 23:22:05 +0100 <monochrom> Is math discovered or inflicted? :)
2020-12-07 23:22:09 +0100 <nfd9001> zugzwang or whatever that chess term was, huh
2020-12-07 23:23:16 +0100nowhereman(~pierre@37.170.38.180)
2020-12-07 23:23:27 +0100 <monochrom> Cocartes says: Coproduct ergo sum.
2020-12-07 23:23:37 +0100 <nfd9001> nice.
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2020-12-07 23:41:09 +0100whatisRT(~whatisRT@2002:5b41:6a33:0:483b:3e3a:b1be:f49a)
2020-12-07 23:43:09 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-07 23:45:18 +0100nfd9001nfd
2020-12-07 23:45:42 +0100 <iqubic> :t fmap :: (((a -> b) -> b) -> c -> a)
2020-12-07 23:45:44 +0100 <lambdabot> error:
2020-12-07 23:45:44 +0100 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘c1’ with ‘f0 (a1 -> b1)’
2020-12-07 23:45:44 +0100 <lambdabot> ‘c1’ is a rigid type variable bound by
2020-12-07 23:45:53 +0100borne(~fritjof@200116b864e55d009ba1d43461655289.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2020-12-07 23:46:19 +0100 <iqubic> :t fmap :: (a -> b) -> b
2020-12-07 23:46:21 +0100 <lambdabot> error:
2020-12-07 23:46:21 +0100 <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
2020-12-07 23:46:21 +0100 <lambdabot> b1 ~ f0 a1 -> f0 b1
2020-12-07 23:46:49 +0100ystael(~ystael@209.6.50.55)
2020-12-07 23:48:44 +0100devalot(~ident@mail.pmade.com) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2020-12-07 23:48:44 +0100ystael(~ystael@209.6.50.55) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-07 23:53:14 +0100dhouthoo(~dhouthoo@ptr-eitgbj2w0uu6delkbrh.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-12-07 23:53:57 +0100nowhereman(~pierre@2a01:e0a:3c7:60d0:e88f:4e24:f6a7:f155)
2020-12-07 23:54:36 +0100nowhere_man(~pierre@37.170.38.180) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-07 23:55:15 +0100son0p(~son0p@181.136.122.143) (Quit: leaving)
2020-12-07 23:56:34 +0100pjb(~t@2a01cb04063ec50074a8618b6b489f5b.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Quit: b)
2020-12-07 23:58:52 +0100ubert(~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf1e5312e6b318fffe838f33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-07 23:59:04 +0100urek(~urek@191.32.132.91)