IRCBrowse

2020/10/23

2020-10-23 00:02:04 +0200GyroW_(~GyroW@d54C03E98.access.telenet.be)
2020-10-23 00:02:04 +0200GyroW_(~GyroW@d54C03E98.access.telenet.be) (Changing host)
2020-10-23 00:02:04 +0200GyroW_(~GyroW@unaffiliated/gyrow)
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2020-10-23 00:02:55 +0200technician1138(~wircer@62.144.c10008-a77.dsl-dynamic.vsi.ru)
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2020-10-23 00:03:14 +0200technician1138(~wircer@62.144.c10008-a77.dsl-dynamic.vsi.ru) ("wIRC")
2020-10-23 00:03:19 +0200jsynacek(~jsynacek@ip-185-149-130-112.kmenet.cz) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:03:51 +0200oats(~hurr@durr/im/a/sheep) (Quit: until later, my friends)
2020-10-23 00:03:56 +0200Kaeipi(~Kaiepi@nwcsnbsc03w-47-55-225-82.dhcp-dynamic.fibreop.nb.bellaliant.net)
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2020-10-23 00:05:03 +0200N3RGY(~N3RGY@65.141.87.122)
2020-10-23 00:05:57 +0200falafel(~falafel@71-34-132-121.clsp.qwest.net)
2020-10-23 00:06:21 +0200Deide(~Deide@217.155.19.23) (Quit: Seeee yaaaa)
2020-10-23 00:07:09 +0200 <N3RGY> Hey all. Having a weird issue. I have a device with a quectel EG25 4G modem. The first two times I booted up, ugen recognized the device and then u3g recognized the device and made /dev/cuaUxxx devices. I can still see this in /var/log/messages. No problem. But subsequent times I turned on the device, ugen sees the modem, but u3g doesn't do anything. Any idea what could be going wrong?
2020-10-23 00:08:11 +0200Merfont(~Kaiepi@nwcsnbsc03w-47-55-225-82.dhcp-dynamic.fibreop.nb.bellaliant.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:08:51 +0200ahmr88(~ahmr88@cpc85006-haye22-2-0-cust131.17-4.cable.virginm.net)
2020-10-23 00:08:59 +0200coot(~coot@37.30.51.94.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Quit: coot)
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2020-10-23 00:11:25 +0200Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@nwcsnbsc03w-47-55-225-82.dhcp-dynamic.fibreop.nb.bellaliant.net)
2020-10-23 00:11:33 +0200 <N3RGY> Oops sorry wrong channel!
2020-10-23 00:12:41 +0200conal_(~conal@66.115.157.144)
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2020-10-23 00:14:13 +0200texasmynsted(~texasmyns@104.140.52.115)
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2020-10-23 00:16:14 +0200conal(~conal@66.115.157.144)
2020-10-23 00:20:52 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@unaffiliated/--/x-3805311) ()
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2020-10-23 00:23:36 +0200tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2020-10-23 00:24:08 +0200valli1(~valli@139.28.218.148)
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2020-10-23 00:30:04 +0200conal(~conal@66.115.157.144) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-10-23 00:30:17 +0200ensyde(~ensyde@2600:1702:2e30:1a40:693a:f19:42e4:5751)
2020-10-23 00:30:38 +0200conal(~conal@66.115.157.144)
2020-10-23 00:31:11 +0200conal(~conal@66.115.157.144) (Client Quit)
2020-10-23 00:32:39 +0200fraktor(~walt@129.93.191.18)
2020-10-23 00:33:14 +0200 <fraktor> So I'm trying to learn Parsec, and I wrote this method to parse a Float. It seems like a pretty bad way to do it though, and I'm wondering if someone could help me understand a better way to do this. https://hastebin.com/qatizuxebe.hs
2020-10-23 00:33:20 +0200conal(~conal@66.115.157.144)
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2020-10-23 00:37:45 +0200pfurla(~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net)
2020-10-23 00:39:02 +0200 <ph88> thank you for the clarification lortabac
2020-10-23 00:39:14 +0200Guest18(bc1a97dc@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.188.26.151.220)
2020-10-23 00:39:21 +0200N3RGY_(~N3RGY@65.141.87.122)
2020-10-23 00:39:41 +0200conal(~conal@66.115.157.144)
2020-10-23 00:39:46 +0200 <Guest18> hello peeps, anyone know a good online haskell repl i could use while my linux comp is unavailable?
2020-10-23 00:40:08 +0200 <Guest18> the one on repl.it is really annoying me with it's bugs
2020-10-23 00:40:57 +0200acidjnk_new2(~acidjnk@p200300d0c72378771d1e3adff3a8980c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:41:39 +0200 <maerwald> It's not a particularly strong business model :)
2020-10-23 00:41:44 +0200falafel(~falafel@71-34-132-121.clsp.qwest.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 00:42:08 +0200falafel(~falafel@71-34-132-121.clsp.qwest.net)
2020-10-23 00:43:07 +0200N3RGY(~N3RGY@65.141.87.122) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:43:25 +0200N3RGY(~N3RGY@65.141.87.122)
2020-10-23 00:43:27 +0200 <lambdabot> Maybe I should set up a Patreon ;-)
2020-10-23 00:44:19 +0200 <Guest18> did the lambdabot just gain sentience?
2020-10-23 00:44:34 +0200elliott_(~elliott_@pool-108-51-141-12.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:44:49 +0200 <Guest18> i'm sorry of the things i told you in confidence, lambdabot
2020-10-23 00:44:54 +0200 <int-e> It's a different niche... but it is kind of offering free computing resources to the masses.
2020-10-23 00:44:55 +0200hekkaidekapus_hekkaidekapus
2020-10-23 00:45:24 +0200 <int-e> Guest18: Don't worry, there are no logs or people reading them.
2020-10-23 00:46:03 +0200 <Guest18> so i take it there are no good repls out there?
2020-10-23 00:46:07 +0200 <int-e> But it does have a feature for sending messages to the channel, which I just (ab?)used.
2020-10-23 00:47:01 +0200N3RGY_(~N3RGY@65.141.87.122) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:47:13 +0200poljar1(~poljar@93-143-177-96.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
2020-10-23 00:47:54 +0200 <hekkaidekapus> fraktor: It is probably not a good idea to roll your own float parser. Background:
2020-10-23 00:48:03 +0200 <int-e> Guest18: I'm vaguely aware that such sites exist. Does tio.run do Haskell?
2020-10-23 00:48:08 +0200Tario(~Tario@201.192.165.173) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:48:10 +0200 <hekkaidekapus> @where floating-point -- fraktor
2020-10-23 00:48:10 +0200 <lambdabot> "What Every Programmer Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic" at <http://floating-point-gui.de/> and "What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic" by David
2020-10-23 00:48:10 +0200 <lambdabot> Goldberg in 1991 at <http://docs.sun.com/source/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html> and <http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.102.244>
2020-10-23 00:48:42 +0200 <hekkaidekapus> fraktor: But you could try <https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-9.0.0/docs/Text-Megaparsec-Char-Lexer.html#v:float>
2020-10-23 00:49:24 +0200poljar(~poljar@93-139-70-179.adsl.net.t-com.hr) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:49:28 +0200Tario(~Tario@201.192.165.173)
2020-10-23 00:50:18 +0200 <Guest18> int-e: it does
2020-10-23 00:50:30 +0200 <Guest18> I hope it handles IO better than repl.it
2020-10-23 00:50:32 +0200 <Guest18> thank you
2020-10-23 00:51:26 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:51:53 +0200 <fraktor> hekkaidekapus: So what I'm doing is using Parsec to determine which characters are part of the float and then `read`, so it's still pretty straightforward.
2020-10-23 00:52:18 +0200olligobber(olligobber@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/olligobber)
2020-10-23 00:52:40 +0200 <Guest18> Another question: if i have two ints, and wanted to divide them (not div, but /) why won't haskell let me?
2020-10-23 00:52:51 +0200 <Guest18> If you need more context
2020-10-23 00:53:28 +0200 <Guest18> I have a function that counts how many letters are different in two given strings. For example "hello" and "hellq" would be 1
2020-10-23 00:53:57 +0200 <Guest18> And I use genericLength to get the length of those strings
2020-10-23 00:54:10 +0200 <Guest18> But for some reason it won't let me divide them
2020-10-23 00:54:24 +0200 <int-e> :t genericLength
2020-10-23 00:54:25 +0200 <lambdabot> Num i => [a] -> i
2020-10-23 00:54:35 +0200denisse(~spaceCat@gateway/tor-sasl/alephzer0)
2020-10-23 00:55:05 +0200amagi_(~amagi@113.101.23.223) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:55:20 +0200jedws(~jedws@101.184.148.229)
2020-10-23 00:56:04 +0200 <Guest18> Ok, so the typeclass is Num, and so if i make the first function also return a num, it should work?
2020-10-23 00:56:16 +0200 <bliminse> Guest18: to divide 2 ints with / call fromIntegral on each of them
2020-10-23 00:56:32 +0200 <hekkaidekapus> fraktor: I don’t understand well what you’re trying to do. Do you want to extract sub-strings that could be converted to floats?
2020-10-23 00:56:42 +0200texasmynsted(~texasmyns@104.140.52.115)
2020-10-23 00:57:00 +0200 <int-e> Something doesn't add up. Anyway, the usual conversion functions are: fromIntegral, realToFrac, and floor/round/ceiling to get back to integers.
2020-10-23 00:57:18 +0200amagi(~amagi@113.101.23.223)
2020-10-23 00:57:21 +0200texasmyn_(~texasmyns@104.140.52.115)
2020-10-23 00:57:33 +0200 <Guest18> Actually, it worked just by putting the Num constraint on the first functrion
2020-10-23 00:58:40 +0200tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2020-10-23 00:58:42 +0200texasmyn_(~texasmyns@104.140.52.115) (Client Quit)
2020-10-23 00:58:45 +0200rotaerk(rotaerk@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe70:4a45)
2020-10-23 00:58:55 +0200 <Guest18> https://pastebin.pl/view/7e4a65f8
2020-10-23 00:58:58 +0200 <Guest18> For reference
2020-10-23 00:59:02 +0200texasmyn_(~texasmyns@104.140.52.115)
2020-10-23 00:59:45 +0200 <Guest18> It should calculate the percentage to which the second string is like the first
2020-10-23 01:00:00 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-10-23 01:00:04 +0200 <Guest18> It takes a key string, and several other strings
2020-10-23 01:00:07 +0200texasmynsted(~texasmyns@104.140.52.115) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-23 01:00:26 +0200 <Guest18> For every one, if the percentage is bigger than 0.9, it prints pass otherwise fail
2020-10-23 01:00:49 +0200mbomba(~mbomba@142.114.9.241) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-10-23 01:00:59 +0200conal(~conal@66.115.157.144) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-10-23 01:01:16 +0200 <Guest18> Wait, that's not the right code
2020-10-23 01:01:38 +0200 <Guest18> https://pastebin.pl/view/49dd7475
2020-10-23 01:01:45 +0200 <Guest18> This is the working version
2020-10-23 01:01:53 +0200texasmyn_(~texasmyns@104.140.52.115) (Client Quit)
2020-10-23 01:02:24 +0200 <Guest18> The key and the other strings are guaranteed to be of the same length
2020-10-23 01:02:56 +0200conal(~conal@66.115.157.144)
2020-10-23 01:03:13 +0200 <Guest18> I know I could have done better, maybe do the nums function with a fold or something, but i had a few minutes to do this
2020-10-23 01:03:20 +0200seanvert(~user@177.84.244.242) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-10-23 01:03:24 +0200tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-10-23 01:04:30 +0200 <Guest18> Suggestions?
2020-10-23 01:05:06 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-10-23 01:05:07 +0200vk3wtf(~doc@14-202-30-62.static.tpgi.com.au) (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1)
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2020-10-23 01:11:11 +0200geowiesnot(~user@87-89-181-157.abo.bbox.fr)
2020-10-23 01:12:25 +0200 <Guest18> num key sub = foldr (\(x,y) b -> if x == y then b+1 else b) 0 $ zip key sub -- i reckon this is better
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2020-10-23 01:16:15 +0200StoneToad_(~StoneToad@199-167-119-164.ppp.storm.ca)
2020-10-23 01:16:18 +0200 <Guest18> Really, any suggestions whatsoever are welcome
2020-10-23 01:17:01 +0200 <hekkaidekapus> fraktor: I’m going away. In the meantime, here is something to chew on. Your bespoke parser would recognise "+45.6". Now try Text.Megaparsec.Char.Lexer.float with that to see what you get. Also:
2020-10-23 01:17:18 +0200 <hekkaidekapus> > isIEE 45.6 -- fraktor
2020-10-23 01:17:20 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2020-10-23 01:17:20 +0200 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: isIEE :: t0 -> t
2020-10-23 01:17:20 +0200 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘isIEEE’ (imported from Prelude)
2020-10-23 01:17:35 +0200 <hekkaidekapus> > isIEEE 45.6 -- fraktor
2020-10-23 01:17:37 +0200 <lambdabot> True
2020-10-23 01:17:43 +0200 <hekkaidekapus> > isIEEE +45.6 -- fraktor
2020-10-23 01:17:45 +0200 <lambdabot> error:
2020-10-23 01:17:45 +0200 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Fractional (Double -> Bool))
2020-10-23 01:17:45 +0200 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘e_1456’
2020-10-23 01:19:43 +0200heatsink(~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-10-23 01:20:15 +0200 <int-e> :t isIEEE
2020-10-23 01:20:17 +0200 <lambdabot> RealFloat a => a -> Bool
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2020-10-23 01:59:13 +0200texasmynsted(~texasmyns@104.140.52.115) ()
2020-10-23 01:59:32 +0200texasmynsted(~texasmyns@104.140.52.115)
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2020-10-23 02:00:01 +0200valli1(~valli@139.28.218.148) ()
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2020-10-23 02:01:28 +0200 <ski> Guest18 : use `replicateM_'. also remove the `return ()'s
2020-10-23 02:02:10 +0200 <Guest18> Yeah, I know the returns are redundant
2020-10-23 02:02:11 +0200 <ski> Guest18 : `percentage' has redundant brackets. (also `(Num a) =>' could be `Num a =>')
2020-10-23 02:02:23 +0200 <Guest18> why replicateM_?
2020-10-23 02:02:37 +0200 <ski> because you don't care about the list of results, anyway
2020-10-23 02:02:52 +0200N3RGY(~N3RGY@65.141.87.122) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-10-23 02:03:11 +0200 <ski> `replicateM n act' is when you want to get back a list of `n' results of executing `act'
2020-10-23 02:03:38 +0200 <ski> if you just want to do something `n' times, but don't care about collecting results in a list, it's better to use `replicateM_'
2020-10-23 02:04:11 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-10-23 02:04:20 +0200 <Guest18> doesn't the compiler optimize this stuff anyway? Or is it the more idiomatic way of doing things?
2020-10-23 02:04:23 +0200steve__(~quassel@ool-18b99d28.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 02:04:48 +0200steve_(~quassel@ool-18b99d28.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-10-23 02:04:48 +0200 <ski> also, you could use `n <- readIO input_line :: IO Int'. in case of a parsing error, this will abort immediately, rather than when `n' is later used
2020-10-23 02:04:55 +0200YellowOnion(~YellowOni@125-237-198-213-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz)
2020-10-23 02:05:22 +0200 <ski> also, you could replace that, and `input_line <- getLine', by `n <- readLn :: IO Int', which does both for you
2020-10-23 02:05:47 +0200ph88(~ph88@ip5f5af0cc.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 02:05:49 +0200 <ski> Guest18 : it probably doesn't optimize it away, i think
2020-10-23 02:06:07 +0200 <Guest18> num key sub = foldr (\(x,y) b -> if x == y then b+1 else b) 0 $ zip key sub -- what about this?
2020-10-23 02:07:19 +0200efertone(~efertone@138.68.79.27) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-23 02:07:31 +0200 <ski> (you could use `n :: Int <- readIO input_line' or `n :: Int <- readLn' instead, if you enable extension `ScopedTypeVariables'. this looks slightly more pretty. or you could just leave out the ascription, and let it infer that `n' is an `Int' (since it's passed to `replicateM_'))
2020-10-23 02:07:37 +0200 <ski> @type replicateM_
2020-10-23 02:07:39 +0200 <lambdabot> Applicative m => Int -> m a -> m ()
2020-10-23 02:07:40 +0200 <ski> @type replicateM
2020-10-23 02:07:41 +0200 <lambdabot> Applicative m => Int -> m a -> m [a]
2020-10-23 02:08:10 +0200efertone(~efertone@138.68.79.27)
2020-10-23 02:08:29 +0200 <ski> yea, next thing i was going to comment on was that your `num' in the paste only works if the two lists (`String's ..) have the same length
2020-10-23 02:08:47 +0200 <Guest18> it's guaranteed that they are
2020-10-23 02:09:01 +0200 <ski> ok
2020-10-23 02:09:23 +0200 <ski> well, there's many different ways to do it
2020-10-23 02:09:41 +0200 <Guest18> how would you do it?
2020-10-23 02:10:11 +0200 <ski> you could e.g. filter the `zip key sub' list, keeping only the pairs in which the two components are equal to each other. then count how many pairs you have left
2020-10-23 02:10:25 +0200 <ski> you could use a list comprehension, if you want to
2020-10-23 02:11:06 +0200 <ski> if you're going to use a fold, then probably foldl' is better, here, btw
2020-10-23 02:11:23 +0200 <simon> 单子 is monad in chinese.
2020-10-23 02:11:50 +0200 <ski> in Leibniz' sense, too ?
2020-10-23 02:12:17 +0200 <simon> I think so. the dictionary says "(functional programming or philosophy) monad" -- I don't know if that encompasses math.
2020-10-23 02:12:29 +0200elliott__(~elliott@pool-108-51-141-12.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2020-10-23 02:12:39 +0200 <ski> (personally i'd also not use `$' in there)
2020-10-23 02:12:40 +0200 <simon> I think only chinese mathematicians know. :)
2020-10-23 02:12:57 +0200 <Guest18> num key sub = length [(x,y) | (x,y) <- zip(key, sub), x == y] -- don't know if i wrote it correctly, but something like this maybe?>
2020-10-23 02:13:02 +0200 <ski> presumably it does, simon
2020-10-23 02:13:32 +0200 <ski> Guest18 : looks ok. although, instead of collecting `(x,y)' you could collect, say, `()'
2020-10-23 02:13:35 +0200 <simon> I wonder if right-associative function application in chinese is 'f ¥ x'
2020-10-23 02:13:46 +0200 <Guest18> ski: that makes sense
2020-10-23 02:13:51 +0200 <ski> (or you could collect `1's, and then `sum' .. many ways to "skin the cat")
2020-10-23 02:14:25 +0200 <ski> not in japanese, then ?
2020-10-23 02:14:50 +0200 <simon> surely :-D
2020-10-23 02:14:58 +0200 <ski> btw, it's `zip key sub', not `zip(key, sub)'
2020-10-23 02:15:18 +0200 <ski> also, you could use `zipWith (==) key sub', to get a list of `Bool'eans, directly
2020-10-23 02:18:21 +0200AceNovo(~chris@184.101.197.134)
2020-10-23 02:18:35 +0200 <ski> > [x + y | x <- [0,1,2,3] | y <- [40,50,60]] -- another extension
2020-10-23 02:18:37 +0200 <lambdabot> [40,51,62]
2020-10-23 02:22:10 +0200 <koz_> @hoogle asum
2020-10-23 02:22:10 +0200 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable asum :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
2020-10-23 02:22:10 +0200 <lambdabot> Data.Conduit.Combinators asum :: (Monad m, Alternative f) => ConduitT (f a) o m (f a)
2020-10-23 02:22:10 +0200 <lambdabot> Protolude asum :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
2020-10-23 02:23:11 +0200AceNovo(~chris@184.101.197.134) (Client Quit)
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2020-10-23 03:04:33 +0200ech(~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ech)
2020-10-23 03:05:42 +0200 <koz_> What's the place to look for how GADTs are represented at runtime?
2020-10-23 03:06:20 +0200 <NGravity> Can haskell draw 4dimensional data ? Because i wanna fix string theory and calculate the total mass of the universe 😜😂
2020-10-23 03:06:41 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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2020-10-23 03:08:47 +0200Lycurgus(~niemand@98.4.96.235) (Quit: Exeunt)
2020-10-23 03:09:37 +0200 <Kolkrabe> Yes, Haskell can do that
2020-10-23 03:09:42 +0200 <NGravity> We have 12 dimensions arrays , perhaps 15 x 14.5 billion light years dimensionals, so that is the data to extract at plank measurements👍🤣
2020-10-23 03:10:03 +0200 <NGravity> Yes yes! 😂😂😂
2020-10-23 03:11:02 +0200mrchampion(~mrchampio@216-211-57-41.dynamic.tbaytel.net)
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2020-10-23 03:12:31 +0200 <c_wraith> koz_: GADTs aren't different at runtime, unless you mean using them for existentials. In which case their runtime representation is the same as any other existential at runtime.
2020-10-23 03:12:46 +0200 <c_wraith> err. existential type classes
2020-10-23 03:13:01 +0200jedws(~jedws@101.184.148.229)
2020-10-23 03:13:28 +0200 <koz_> c_wraith: Suppose you have something like 'Foo (a :: Type) where Bar :: (SomeConstraint a) => a -> Foo a'. Would this look different to 'data Foo a = Foo a'?
2020-10-23 03:13:39 +0200 <koz_> s/= Foo/= Bar/ argh
2020-10-23 03:14:05 +0200ericsagnes(~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:d50b:1659:8849:617f)
2020-10-23 03:14:35 +0200 <c_wraith> I suppose that's technically not an existential, even though it's doing the same thing you'd normally do with existential type classes.
2020-10-23 03:15:16 +0200 <koz_> So would this end up looking like an existential at runtime, or not?
2020-10-23 03:15:25 +0200 <c_wraith> I mean, it'd be packaged the same way
2020-10-23 03:16:00 +0200taurux(~taurux@net-188-216-37-217.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
2020-10-23 03:16:03 +0200 <c_wraith> (SomeConstraint a) => a -> Foo a gets converted to SomeConstraintDict a -> a -> Foo a
2020-10-23 03:16:17 +0200 <koz_> Ah, so the dictionary gets carted around at runtime?
2020-10-23 03:16:21 +0200 <c_wraith> yes
2020-10-23 03:16:41 +0200 <c_wraith> Which is why it's exceptionally rare for it to be the correct design
2020-10-23 03:17:14 +0200 <koz_> OK, thanks. I thought as much, but I wanted to ask just in case.
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2020-10-23 03:27:55 +0200skiidly ponders the difference between `foo :: forall a. C a => F a -> G a' and `foo :: (exists a. C a *> F a) -> (exists a. C a *> G a)'
2020-10-23 03:28:38 +0200 <ski> (there's also `foo :: (forall a. C a => F a) -> (forall a. C a => G a)' ..)
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2020-10-23 03:31:24 +0200 <ski> (passing around a dictionary can be useful, sometimes. but it may possibly be more useful, if you bundle the dictionary of a typeclass instance for `a', not with a single value of type `a', but with some collection of `a'. that way, one can make use of operations which take two `a's. cf. "binary methods problem" in OO)
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2020-10-23 03:38:20 +0200 <jbox> today is my first day of Haskell! I decided to try out xmonad and I'm loving it
2020-10-23 03:39:09 +0200falafel(~falafel@71-34-132-121.clsp.qwest.net)
2020-10-23 03:39:26 +0200 <ghoulguy> hi jbox, neat that it's working out
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2020-10-23 03:44:10 +0200 <ski> jbox : feel free to ask, if you have any questions
2020-10-23 03:45:16 +0200 <jbox> ski: thank you ^-^
2020-10-23 03:45:43 +0200 <jbox> I've never written in a functional language before (aside from Nix and the "functional" aspects of Rust), so I'm learning a lot :D
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2020-10-23 04:20:48 +0200 <dsal> jbox: We have many more monads to choose from. :)
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2020-10-23 05:00:01 +0200Arthimus(~Arthimus@195.206.169.184) ()
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2020-10-23 05:03:49 +0200 <jbox> is there a standard haskell repl?
2020-10-23 05:04:26 +0200GyroW(~GyroW@d54c03e98.access.telenet.be)
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2020-10-23 05:10:05 +0200 <koz_> jbox: There's GHCi?
2020-10-23 05:11:02 +0200 <jbox> koz_: perfect, thank you!
2020-10-23 05:13:17 +0200 <Squarism> im wondering if you could somehow discriminate between two class instances by class constraint. Say we have "class MyClz a" and "instance MyClz a" and "instance Show a => MyClz a" . If i try to compile that i get "Duplciate instance declaration"
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2020-10-23 05:15:53 +0200 <koz_> Squarism: You can use a newtype wrapper like 'instance Show a => MyClz (ViaShow a)'.
2020-10-23 05:16:19 +0200 <koz_> Because in your current situation, 'instance MyClz a' already covers everything, whether it has a Show instance or not.
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2020-10-23 05:20:19 +0200 <Squarism> koz_, thanks. I think Im fooling myself to think I can use classes to pattern match, but lets see where this is going
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2020-10-23 05:55:21 +0200 <jbox> should I use my distribution package manager (pacman/yay on Arch Linux) to install the Haskell toolchain or should I use ghcup?
2020-10-23 05:56:06 +0200 <koz_> jbox: ghcup.
2020-10-23 05:56:13 +0200 <koz_> This applies _doubly_ on Arch.
2020-10-23 05:57:27 +0200 <jbox> koz_: okay, thanks!
2020-10-23 05:58:25 +0200ensyde(~ensyde@2600:1702:2e30:1a40:693a:f19:42e4:5751) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2020-10-23 06:01:05 +0200conal(~conal@66.115.157.144)
2020-10-23 06:01:57 +0200 <dsal> jbox: You got any particular plans?
2020-10-23 06:04:35 +0200 <jbox> dsal: I'm just configuring xmonad right now. I'm trying to get vim integration working
2020-10-23 06:05:29 +0200 <dsal> Ah. I never got very far configuring xmonad. Day 1: Get a nice interface I like. I write lots of software I use, though.
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2020-10-23 06:38:28 +0200hackagepandoc 2.11.0.3 - Conversion between markup formats https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pandoc-2.11.0.3 (JohnMacFarlane)
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2020-10-23 06:43:27 +0200hackageciteproc 0.1.0.3 - Generates citations and bibliography from CSL styles. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/citeproc-0.1.0.3 (JohnMacFarlane)
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2020-10-23 07:11:28 +0200hackageskylighting-core 0.10.0.3 - syntax highlighting library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/skylighting-core-0.10.0.3 (JohnMacFarlane)
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2020-10-23 08:04:43 +0200miklcct(quasselcor@2001:19f0:7001:5ad:5400:2ff:feb6:50d7) (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
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2020-10-23 08:04:58 +0200hackagegopro-plus 0.4.0.0 - GoPro Plus Client API. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gopro-plus-0.4.0.0 (dustin)
2020-10-23 08:05:17 +0200 <jophish> Does cabal have a command to get the path to an executable?
2020-10-23 08:05:20 +0200bitmagie(~Thunderbi@200116b8063bf700fc77edf9042d7650.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2020-10-23 08:05:26 +0200 <jophish> i.e. the thing called by cabal run
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2020-10-23 08:49:47 +0200tomsmedingthinks there is not, but would very much like to be proven wrong
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2020-10-23 08:50:57 +0200 <tomsmeding> (a hacky way to get it manually for a single case is to run 'cabal build', and look at the last Linking step)
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2020-10-23 09:25:57 +0200hackagehaxl 2.3.0.0 - A Haskell library for efficient, concurrent,and concise data access. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haxl-2.3.0.0 (SimonMarlow)
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2020-10-23 10:11:57 +0200hackageZ-Data 0.1.8.0 - Array, vector and text https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Z-Data-0.1.8.0 (winterland)
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2020-10-23 10:40:28 +0200 <dminuoso> jophish: Yes, it does In 3.4.
2020-10-23 10:40:36 +0200 <dminuoso> It's --list-bin
2020-10-23 10:40:39 +0200 <dminuoso> Until then you have two options
2020-10-23 10:40:41 +0200 <jophish> thanks!
2020-10-23 10:40:56 +0200 <dminuoso> 1) Under Linux you can do `cabal exec -- which packageName`
2020-10-23 10:41:06 +0200 <dminuoso> 2) For windows compatibility you can use `cabal-plan`
2020-10-23 10:41:19 +0200 <dminuoso> (Because 3.4 is fully released yet)
2020-10-23 10:41:33 +0200 <jophish> ah of course, this is nicest I think: cabal exec -- which packageName
2020-10-23 10:41:44 +0200 <dminuoso> jophish: If you want to use this inside the CI, make sure to pass -v0
2020-10-23 10:41:50 +0200 <dminuoso> So cabal doesn't output other stuff
2020-10-23 10:42:01 +0200 <jophish> wouldn't other stuff be on stderr?
2020-10-23 10:42:06 +0200 <jophish> or shouldn't perhaps
2020-10-23 10:42:21 +0200 <dminuoso> In experience you want -v0
2020-10-23 10:42:56 +0200 <dminuoso> cabal outputs a lot of stuff on stdout, but even when you `build` first, our CI was broken a few times mysteriously because cabal output other stuff
2020-10-23 10:42:57 +0200 <jophish> right, thanks
2020-10-23 10:43:14 +0200 <jophish> yeah, I've always found that a little weird
2020-10-23 10:43:36 +0200 <dminuoso> Might just be an issue due to the way we run our CI. At any rate, specifying -v0 is good.
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2020-10-23 10:58:41 +0200 <merijn> 3.4 is blocked on GHC 9.0 release
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2020-10-23 11:18:08 +0200stefan-__(~cri@42dots.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-23 11:18:14 +0200 <maerwald> @hoogle delete
2020-10-23 11:18:14 +0200 <lambdabot> Data.List delete :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [a]
2020-10-23 11:18:14 +0200 <lambdabot> GHC.OldList delete :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [a]
2020-10-23 11:18:14 +0200 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap.Internal delete :: Key -> IntMap a -> IntMap a
2020-10-23 11:18:19 +0200stefan-__(~cri@42dots.de)
2020-10-23 11:18:46 +0200 <maerwald> > delete 1 [1..]
2020-10-23 11:18:48 +0200 <lambdabot> [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29...
2020-10-23 11:20:07 +0200scratchy_beard(~doug@cpc110383-king13-2-0-cust408.19-1.cable.virginm.net)
2020-10-23 11:20:37 +0200erolm_a(~erolm_a@62.18.212.252) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-10-23 11:20:39 +0200evade(~evade@2001:b07:a15:ec0c:91a9:d55f:dffd:96e)
2020-10-23 11:20:40 +0200heatsink(~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-10-23 11:20:54 +0200erolm_a(~erolm_a@62.18.212.252)
2020-10-23 11:20:56 +0200 <int-e> > delete 1 [1,1,1]
2020-10-23 11:20:58 +0200 <lambdabot> [1,1]
2020-10-23 11:21:09 +0200 <maerwald> hmm
2020-10-23 11:21:20 +0200 <maerwald> so it's actually `deleteFirst`
2020-10-23 11:21:24 +0200 <hc> > length (delete 1 [1..])
2020-10-23 11:21:30 +0200 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
2020-10-23 11:21:33 +0200 <int-e> maerwald: yeah, which may be surprising.
2020-10-23 11:21:47 +0200 <maerwald> Such typesafety :p
2020-10-23 11:21:54 +0200 <ski> > [0,0,0] \\ [0,0]
2020-10-23 11:21:56 +0200 <lambdabot> [0]
2020-10-23 11:22:03 +0200 <dminuoso> uhh
2020-10-23 11:22:05 +0200 <maerwald> that's gross
2020-10-23 11:22:10 +0200 <dminuoso> ouch
2020-10-23 11:22:18 +0200 <int-e> multisets
2020-10-23 11:22:31 +0200 <dminuoso> Principle of maximum surprise
2020-10-23 11:22:54 +0200 <dminuoso> Can't we offload all these things to Data.Surprise.Surprise and out of Prelude?
2020-10-23 11:22:59 +0200 <int-e> it is what it is
2020-10-23 11:23:01 +0200 <int-e> no!
2020-10-23 11:23:04 +0200AlterEgo-(~ladew@124-198-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2020-10-23 11:23:12 +0200 <int-e> without warts, what would we complain about?
2020-10-23 11:23:21 +0200 <dminuoso> Dunno. Other languages?
2020-10-23 11:23:22 +0200 <int-e> what little curiosities would we discuss?
2020-10-23 11:23:26 +0200 <int-e> it would be BORING
2020-10-23 11:23:28 +0200magma(~magma@2001:b07:a15:ec0c:91a9:d55f:dffd:96e)
2020-10-23 11:24:03 +0200 <int-e> next you'll be taking away NaNs and signed zeros from IEEE floating point numbers
2020-10-23 11:24:40 +0200 <dminuoso> These are not a problem, but I do want IEEE conform traps
2020-10-23 11:24:41 +0200 <ski> or `n+k'
2020-10-23 11:24:41 +0200 <int-e> (was that too much?)
2020-10-23 11:24:46 +0200heatsink(~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-10-23 11:25:10 +0200 <int-e> ski: I don't miss n+k patterns, somehow.
2020-10-23 11:25:24 +0200babygnu(~robert@gateway/tor-sasl/babygnu)
2020-10-23 11:25:29 +0200 <merijn> int-e: Abolish value NaN, join us in trapping NaN paradise!
2020-10-23 11:25:47 +0200 <int-e> > error "it's a trap!"
2020-10-23 11:25:49 +0200 <lambdabot> *Exception: it's a trap!
2020-10-23 11:25:49 +0200stefan-__(~cri@42dots.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-23 11:25:59 +0200 <merijn> int-e: Basically, yes :p
2020-10-23 11:26:10 +0200stefan-__(~cri@42dots.de)
2020-10-23 11:26:12 +0200 <merijn> int-e: It's even IEEE-754 compliant!
2020-10-23 11:26:20 +0200 <int-e> merijn: I just wonder how much code that would/will break.
2020-10-23 11:26:27 +0200 <dminuoso> int-e: Dunno, I have luxury problems rather
2020-10-23 11:26:29 +0200 <dminuoso> % type f <> g = Either f g
2020-10-23 11:26:29 +0200 <yahb> dminuoso:
2020-10-23 11:26:31 +0200 <dminuoso> I dont want that to work.
2020-10-23 11:26:45 +0200 <merijn> I'm torn on type operators
2020-10-23 11:26:52 +0200 <merijn> On the one hand "ugh"
2020-10-23 11:26:57 +0200 <dminuoso> Type operators are fine, but they should demand a colon!
2020-10-23 11:27:03 +0200 <merijn> On the other hands, prefixing everything with : is also "ugh"
2020-10-23 11:27:06 +0200 <dminuoso> I think it used to be that way in 6.x or 7.x
2020-10-23 11:27:19 +0200 <merijn> Up until mid 7.x, I think
2020-10-23 11:27:35 +0200 <dminuoso> Right. There's so many places where quantifying over an operator makes so much more sense
2020-10-23 11:27:41 +0200 <merijn> Personally I'm offended much more by TypeInType and refuse to acknowledge it's existence
2020-10-23 11:27:41 +0200 <dminuoso> All the profunctor stuff for example
2020-10-23 11:28:08 +0200magma(~magma@2001:b07:a15:ec0c:91a9:d55f:dffd:96e) (Client Quit)
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2020-10-23 11:28:39 +0200 <int-e> (~>) is the perfect type variable for categories and arrows...
2020-10-23 11:29:05 +0200karanlikmadde(~karanlikm@2a01:c23:6063:4800:143d:31e:a773:8400)
2020-10-23 11:29:25 +0200 <dminuoso> I mean if you look at Servant, it's not even annoying to have colon prefixes for type operators.
2020-10-23 11:29:37 +0200 <int-e> It
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2020-10-23 11:29:59 +0200 <int-e> It's ugly for commutative things... But then again we can have :*: and :+:...
2020-10-23 11:30:07 +0200magma(~magma@2001:b07:a15:ec0c:91a9:d55f:dffd:96e)
2020-10-23 11:30:14 +0200DavidEichmann(~david@43.240.198.146.dyn.plus.net)
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2020-10-23 11:30:30 +0200 <int-e> (modulo isomorphisms)
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2020-10-23 11:31:03 +0200 <dminuoso> Overally, I think we'd pull more value from type operator variables than that
2020-10-23 11:31:29 +0200 <dminuoso> It's a little bit of visual noise vs effectively moving things that make more sense as infix into prefix position
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2020-10-23 11:52:58 +0200hackagedropbox 0.0.0 - Dropbox API client https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dropbox-0.0.0 (Jappie)
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2020-10-23 12:18:40 +0200 <tomsmeding> quick development ^
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2020-10-23 12:21:23 +0200 <dminuoso> Modern development! Release early and release unfinished.
2020-10-23 12:21:25 +0200nefercheprure(tma@twin.jikos.cz)
2020-10-23 12:21:33 +0200avoandmayo(~textual@122-58-158-238-adsl.sparkbb.co.nz)
2020-10-23 12:21:50 +0200 <dminuoso> otoh, I have half a dozen packages awaiting release, but I've never found the time to finis them. :(
2020-10-23 12:22:00 +0200 <dminuoso> Can't seem to find the middleground here
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2020-10-23 12:55:38 +0200Lycurgus(~niemand@98.4.96.235)
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2020-10-23 12:57:59 +0200 <maerwald> There's actual research backing up the "release early, release often" mantra. But my impression is that it doesn't normalise for context: most of the time ppl have no idea what they are doing. Then quick feedback is all you got, lol
2020-10-23 13:02:46 +0200Tario(~Tario@201.192.165.173) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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2020-10-23 13:09:52 +0200alx741(~alx741@181.196.68.73) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 13:11:27 +0200hackagedropbox 0.0.4 - Dropbox API client https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dropbox-0.0.4 (Jappie)
2020-10-23 13:11:31 +0200 <[exa]> maerwald: people make the best tests
2020-10-23 13:13:53 +0200brisbin(~patrick@pool-173-49-158-4.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-10-23 13:18:28 +0200hackageaws-lambda-haskell-runtime 3.0.5 - Haskell runtime for AWS Lambda https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aws-lambda-haskell-runtime-3.0.5 (NickSeagull)
2020-10-23 13:18:39 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@unaffiliated/--/x-3805311)
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2020-10-23 13:26:37 +0200invaser(~Thunderbi@31.148.23.125) (Client Quit)
2020-10-23 13:28:12 +0200 <merijn> There's some people uploading stuff to hackage that doesn't even compile
2020-10-23 13:28:15 +0200xerox_(~xerox@unaffiliated/xerox)
2020-10-23 13:28:29 +0200shatriff(~vitaliish@176.52.219.10)
2020-10-23 13:28:40 +0200 <merijn> I'm not even talking "dependency bounds are wrong", I mean "straight up syntax error"
2020-10-23 13:28:59 +0200 <merijn> I wish people would do the bare minimum testing at least, before cluttering shared resources
2020-10-23 13:29:33 +0200 <merijn> The repo doesn't even exist
2020-10-23 13:30:15 +0200 <merijn> oh, that was a typo in the cabal file
2020-10-23 13:30:28 +0200 <merijn> I'm going to bet this person isn't aware of release candidates >.>
2020-10-23 13:31:25 +0200alp(~alp@2a01:e0a:58b:4920:a54e:d9e5:dae3:56de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-10-23 13:31:41 +0200 <hc> merijn: yeah, it is a bit difficult to acclimate to... indeed, the release canditate feature is not-100%-obvious
2020-10-23 13:31:49 +0200 <int-e> Hmm, maybe they're using a non-cabal build tool by default :/
2020-10-23 13:32:12 +0200 <merijn> hc: candidate is the default, though?
2020-10-23 13:32:15 +0200 <hc> then again, adding some checks to reject stuff that doesn't copmile sounds doable
2020-10-23 13:32:23 +0200 <merijn> hc: Not really
2020-10-23 13:32:27 +0200 <hc> merijn: is it? I always explicitly search for it
2020-10-23 13:32:40 +0200 <merijn> hc: Because then anything depending on native libraries that are not on the builders fails
2020-10-23 13:32:48 +0200 <merijn> hc: How are you uploading, then?
2020-10-23 13:32:48 +0200 <hc> merijn: oh, true.
2020-10-23 13:32:51 +0200 <hc> s/compile/type check maybe?
2020-10-23 13:33:04 +0200 <int-e> you can't even check whether there's a build plan, because of C dependencies and possible platform-specific packages
2020-10-23 13:33:28 +0200 <int-e> (not easily at least)
2020-10-23 13:33:48 +0200 <merijn> hc: The hackage upload page (from clicking the link) has them at the bottom (this should perhaps be at the top, before the upload link/button)
2020-10-23 13:33:51 +0200dbmikus(~dbmikus@cpe-76-167-86-219.natsow.res.rr.com)
2020-10-23 13:33:53 +0200 <hc> you could require manual review by maintainers for packages that don't compile on "stardard hardware" then?
2020-10-23 13:33:57 +0200 <merijn> hc: https://hackage.haskell.org/upload
2020-10-23 13:34:20 +0200 <int-e> there is an upload page?
2020-10-23 13:34:23 +0200 <merijn> hc: And "cabal upload" requires you to add --publish to upload a non-candidate version
2020-10-23 13:34:28 +0200 <merijn> int-e: Yes :p
2020-10-23 13:34:35 +0200 <int-e> fancy
2020-10-23 13:34:51 +0200 <hc> int-e: yes, it's actually a very open infrastructure imho
2020-10-23 13:34:56 +0200 <merijn> Although I just use "cabal upload", since it's integrated with my password manager
2020-10-23 13:34:57 +0200 <hc> very low entry bar to contributing
2020-10-23 13:35:51 +0200 <int-e> hc: I never went looking for an upload page... I always just used `cabal upload`.
2020-10-23 13:36:03 +0200 <hc> ah ok, I see
2020-10-23 13:36:20 +0200 <hc> I always used cabal sdist, then find to find the tarball and then uploaded it via the file upload feature
2020-10-23 13:36:27 +0200 <hc> much later did I learn there is an upload command
2020-10-23 13:36:33 +0200 <int-e> It's just so easy to miss things that you're not looking for.
2020-10-23 13:36:42 +0200 <hc> true that!
2020-10-23 13:37:26 +0200 <hc> I tend to judge things these days by how easy/hard they make it for me to learn how to do what I am trying to do. (unless, of course, they require me to learn novel new concepts I haven't heard of before and that actually teach me something:)
2020-10-23 13:37:47 +0200 <hc> so by this standard, for example, I like hetzner cloud a lot and AWS not so much...
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2020-10-23 13:54:43 +0200 <[exa]> ...there's no testing/review in hackage at all?
2020-10-23 13:54:46 +0200dbmikus(~dbmikus@cpe-76-167-86-219.natsow.res.rr.com)
2020-10-23 13:54:54 +0200nbloomf(~nbloomf@2600:1700:ad14:3020:6d96:aec8:3874:14ea)
2020-10-23 13:55:53 +0200djellemah(~djellemah@2601:5c2:100:96c:e008:b638:39fe:6a54)
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2020-10-23 13:57:01 +0200xerox_(~xerox@unaffiliated/xerox) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-10-23 13:57:23 +0200 <infinity0> i have some 3rd-party code that operates lazily on the front of a String, and some other 3rd-party code that operates lazily on the front of a lazy ByteString
2020-10-23 13:57:48 +0200 <infinity0> to interoperate the two, i'm keeping my data as a lazy ByteString, but then converting it to a String using LBS.pack/unpack
2020-10-23 13:58:04 +0200 <merijn> [exa]: No
2020-10-23 13:58:21 +0200 <merijn> [exa]: Who did you imagine would do that?
2020-10-23 13:58:29 +0200 <infinity0> however if i do this many many times, i will build up a deep thunk of pack (.. unpack ( .. pack ( ... unpack ) ... etc, is there any way around this?
2020-10-23 13:58:46 +0200 <merijn> infinity0: Stop...please...you're going to make me cry
2020-10-23 13:59:00 +0200 <infinity0> so is the answer "no"?
2020-10-23 13:59:12 +0200 <merijn> The only way that pack/unpack you're using would work is if you are using Char8
2020-10-23 13:59:22 +0200 <merijn> And if so, I'm going to have to send my hit squad after you
2020-10-23 13:59:31 +0200 <infinity0> i'm using Char8, that's beside the point of my question though
2020-10-23 13:59:33 +0200dbmikus(~dbmikus@cpe-76-167-86-219.natsow.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 13:59:50 +0200thblt(~thblt@unaffiliated/thblt)
2020-10-23 14:00:01 +0200matp(~matp@178.162.204.214) ()
2020-10-23 14:02:07 +0200 <merijn> I disagree :) Doing that conversion once is evil enough that I'm quoted for hating on it (https://github.com/quchen/articles/blob/master/fbut.md#bytestringchar8-is-bad). Doing it repeatedly is *terribly* broken
2020-10-23 14:02:47 +0200heatsink(~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-10-23 14:03:14 +0200cristi_(~cristi@86.121.125.90)
2020-10-23 14:03:22 +0200 <hc> merijn: lol on that quote
2020-10-23 14:03:37 +0200 <merijn> Ideally one (or both) of those 3rd party libraries exposes another way of interacting with it, but that's hard to say without knowing which libraries
2020-10-23 14:03:40 +0200 <merijn> hc: #facts
2020-10-23 14:04:13 +0200thblt(~thblt@unaffiliated/thblt) ("ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)")
2020-10-23 14:04:17 +0200 <infinity0> merijn: that problem doesn't apply to my use case, i'm only interested in the issue mentioned in my question
2020-10-23 14:04:29 +0200 <arahael> Meh, char8 probably still makes sense in some situations, such as where you have mixed-encoded strings.
2020-10-23 14:04:50 +0200coot(~coot@37.30.51.94.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 14:05:10 +0200 <merijn> arahael: No, because then you just have a binary blob and should be operating on ByteString only
2020-10-23 14:05:23 +0200 <infinity0> the issue is about interoperating between two pieces of code that expect those two different types, yet it would seem the pack/unpack conversion would become more inefficient the more you interleave the operations, which is a shame
2020-10-23 14:05:28 +0200coot(~coot@37.30.51.94.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
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2020-10-23 14:07:20 +0200 <arahael> merijn: I really shouldn't engage #haskell when my glenfiddich is running out. ;) But I'll persist! What if you were dealing with an sqlite blob of unspecified encoding?
2020-10-23 14:08:07 +0200 <merijn> infinity0: It's not about "more inefficient", but about "is this fundamentally broken?". Either one (or both) of those libraries are exposing the wrong type in their API (in which hopefully there's a right one too) *or* what you're doing is just broken and can't work correctly. I dunno which of those is true. But I don't know the answer to "how can I make the broken thing faster"
2020-10-23 14:08:12 +0200urodna(~urodna@unaffiliated/urodna)
2020-10-23 14:08:19 +0200 <merijn> arahael: ByteString
2020-10-23 14:08:28 +0200coot(~coot@37.30.51.94.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 14:08:37 +0200 <arahael> merijn: Oh, hang on - char8 isn't actually 8-bit clean is it?
2020-10-23 14:08:42 +0200 <merijn> arahael: No
2020-10-23 14:08:53 +0200 <arahael> merijn: Well, then that dies right there.
2020-10-23 14:08:53 +0200 <merijn> arahael: It's just "lol, let's just drop all non-ascii input"
2020-10-23 14:09:06 +0200 <arahael> Yeah, I just realised why it's so bad, again.
2020-10-23 14:09:18 +0200Chi1thangoo(~Chi1thang@87.112.60.168) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-10-23 14:09:22 +0200 <infinity0> merijn: "this is fundamentally broken" is a subjective judgement, i don't have the time to go into that type of philosophical debate
2020-10-23 14:09:23 +0200 <hc> maybe move it to the ByteString.Yolo subpackage to make this more clear?
2020-10-23 14:09:41 +0200 <merijn> hc: I have campaigned for it's removal multiple times
2020-10-23 14:10:04 +0200 <infinity0> the fact that you had to write a blog post about it means that "for all real-world situations, it results in incorrect behaviour" is not true, i would really just like to focus on my repeated unpack/pack question in terms of efficiency
2020-10-23 14:10:15 +0200coot(~coot@37.30.51.94.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
2020-10-23 14:10:42 +0200 <infinity0> you can think about it in terms of some unspecified types A and B if it makes you more comfortable..
2020-10-23 14:10:42 +0200 <merijn> infinity0: That problem is unsolvable
2020-10-23 14:10:43 +0200Yangster(c053e4f4@192.83.228.244)
2020-10-23 14:10:50 +0200 <hc> infinity0: when you ask a hacker a simple question, you might get a long and possible philospophical answer ;p
2020-10-23 14:10:56 +0200 <infinity0> fair enough...
2020-10-23 14:10:59 +0200Yangster(c053e4f4@192.83.228.244) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 14:11:04 +0200 <merijn> "I'm repeatedly computing the same thing, how do I make it fast?" 'well...stop doing that'
2020-10-23 14:11:09 +0200ggole(~ggole@2001:8003:8119:7200:553e:28c1:9eff:faae)
2020-10-23 14:11:23 +0200 <merijn> If you're encoding the same string, just, like, save the result and reuse it?
2020-10-23 14:11:49 +0200 <merijn> And if you're *not* encoding the same string, then I fail to see how you could convert it faster than "converting it"
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2020-10-23 14:14:07 +0200 <infinity0> i'm repeatedly decoding a stream, that's the thing, and it could either be A or B
2020-10-23 14:14:14 +0200 <arahael> merijn: When someone wants to "focus" on doing something efficiently, they don't always mean in computer time, even if they say that. ;)
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2020-10-23 14:14:45 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@unaffiliated/--/x-3805311) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-10-23 14:16:01 +0200 <merijn> infinity0: Incidentally, replacing Char8.unpack with "T.unpack . decodeUtf8With lenientDecode" will give you the exact same type with a *much* more robust and *much* less bug-prone behaviour
2020-10-23 14:16:13 +0200 <infinity0> it's reasonable that a decoding API gives me (leftovers, result), but the two different APIs have different types for "leftovers"
2020-10-23 14:16:14 +0200hekkaidekapus(~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus)
2020-10-23 14:16:28 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2020-10-23 14:16:42 +0200 <infinity0> merijn: thanks, yes i thought something like that must be possible, unfortunately it still would be inefficient due to the thunk build-up as if i understand right
2020-10-23 14:16:59 +0200 <merijn> (since it will 1. work correctly for any UTF-8 unicode, 2. gracefully handle errors if it's *not* UTF-8. As opposed to Char8 which will just silently corrupt your data)
2020-10-23 14:17:18 +0200 <merijn> infinity0: Any conversion to String is *always* going to be inefficient
2020-10-23 14:17:27 +0200 <merijn> Given that string easily takes up ~24 byte per character
2020-10-23 14:17:32 +0200 <merijn> and ruins your cache
2020-10-23 14:18:17 +0200 <[exa]> merijn: like, the users at least... :D
2020-10-23 14:18:33 +0200 <infinity0> well laziness could help with that, if only pack was "smart" enough to recognise an "unpack (...)" thunk and actually destructure it instead of building on top of it
2020-10-23 14:18:56 +0200 <merijn> [exa]: Well, there's the expectation that users do, but it doesn't hold as you see
2020-10-23 14:19:00 +0200 <arahael> infinity0: You mean fusion? :)
2020-10-23 14:19:03 +0200 <merijn> infinity0: That's not possible with ByteString
2020-10-23 14:19:18 +0200 <[exa]> merijn: moderation/banhammer is not available?
2020-10-23 14:19:28 +0200 <merijn> infinity0: To create a ByteString it *must* be copied in full
2020-10-23 14:19:40 +0200 <infinity0> sorry, i am talking about Lazy.ByteString here
2020-10-23 14:19:44 +0200 <merijn> [exa]: In theory, sure, in practice there's no process
2020-10-23 14:19:57 +0200 <merijn> infinity0: Lazy ByteString is just [Strict.ByteString]
2020-10-23 14:20:34 +0200 <[exa]> well then it's marvelous that the hackage is in such a good state
2020-10-23 14:20:39 +0200 <merijn> The chunk size depending on how/what creates the lazy list
2020-10-23 14:20:49 +0200 <infinity0> right, you only need to copy the first part of it, when creating one lazily
2020-10-23 14:21:23 +0200 <infinity0> arahael: that only happens at build-time not run-time conditionally AIUI. i'm pretty sure what i mentioned is impossible with today's haskell but i thought perhaps there might be some other strartegy i didn't know about
2020-10-23 14:21:41 +0200Sarma(~Amras@unaffiliated/amras0000)
2020-10-23 14:22:15 +0200 <arahael> infinity0: When I deal with haskell, I rarely try to think about compiletime vs runtime. I just accept that all the types are resolved at compile time.
2020-10-23 14:22:51 +0200heatsink(~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-10-23 14:23:20 +0200 <infinity0> well, i also care about runtime performance
2020-10-23 14:23:40 +0200nbloomf(~nbloomf@2600:1700:ad14:3020:6d96:aec8:3874:14ea)
2020-10-23 14:24:23 +0200 <merijn> infinity0: Which 2 libraries are this?
2020-10-23 14:24:42 +0200 <infinity0> Serialise vs Read
2020-10-23 14:24:48 +0200 <merijn> oof
2020-10-23 14:24:55 +0200 <merijn> As in the Read typeclass?
2020-10-23 14:25:01 +0200 <infinity0> yeah
2020-10-23 14:25:05 +0200 <merijn> And you care about performance?
2020-10-23 14:25:20 +0200 <merijn> Because Read's performance is notoriously *god awful*
2020-10-23 14:25:30 +0200 <merijn> Just, like, incredibly bad
2020-10-23 14:25:55 +0200 <infinity0> right, for interactive user session is fine, but having it degrade on a O(n^2) basis sounds bad even for an interactive user session
2020-10-23 14:25:58 +0200 <merijn> What are you trying to read?
2020-10-23 14:27:21 +0200 <infinity0> a stream of a bunch of objects, that could either be Serialise or Read
2020-10-23 14:27:28 +0200brisbin(~patrick@pool-173-49-158-4.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
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2020-10-23 14:28:07 +0200 <arahael> When I had to do a Read thing, I made my own read typeclass.
2020-10-23 14:28:34 +0200 <merijn> infinity0: And you don't control what creates this input (i.e. there's no way to replace Read with something else?)
2020-10-23 14:29:00 +0200 <infinity0> i could replace Read with perhaps JSON, that is another option i guess. mostly Read is convenient to derive and carries no dependencies
2020-10-23 14:29:41 +0200 <merijn> If you use Serialise already anyway, why not just derive Serialise?
2020-10-23 14:29:46 +0200 <infinity0> the underlying question regarding "runtime fusion" was interesting though
2020-10-23 14:30:12 +0200 <infinity0> i am already deriving Serialise. the idea is to have a fast+binary option but also a easy-friendly-manual option
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2020-10-23 15:23:43 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald: Is there a way to select a version with ghcup without changing the default?
2020-10-23 15:23:51 +0200heatsink(~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-10-23 15:24:01 +0200 <maerwald> dminuoso: what do you mean exactly?
2020-10-23 15:24:12 +0200 <dminuoso> So we have a CI node with multiple GHC versions installed
2020-10-23 15:24:21 +0200 <maerwald> cabal build -w ghc-8.8.4?
2020-10-23 15:24:49 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald: Cunning.
2020-10-23 15:25:01 +0200 <merijn> That's my local setup too :p
2020-10-23 15:25:01 +0200 <dminuoso> Can ghcup give me the path?
2020-10-23 15:25:08 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-10-23 15:25:14 +0200 <maerwald> dminuoso: what path?
2020-10-23 15:25:14 +0200 <merijn> I just have all ghc's in my path (latest first)
2020-10-23 15:25:18 +0200Zetagon(~leo@c151-177-52-233.bredband.comhem.se) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-10-23 15:25:24 +0200 <dminuoso> merijn: The path to an installed ghc
2020-10-23 15:25:29 +0200 <merijn> So "ghc" defaults to the latest and specific version go to those
2020-10-23 15:25:30 +0200 <maerwald> dminuoso: ghcup paths are predictable
2020-10-23 15:25:41 +0200 <maerwald> ~/.ghcup/ghc/8.8.4/bin/ghc or something
2020-10-23 15:26:06 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald: Well it'd still feel better if there was a sort of `--list-ghc` command, such I could say `cabal build -w $(ghcup --list-bin ghc-8.6.5)` or some such
2020-10-23 15:26:27 +0200 <dminuoso> Rather than encoding internals of ghcup into CI job descriptions
2020-10-23 15:26:28 +0200 <maerwald> You don't trust your PATH?
2020-10-23 15:26:45 +0200 <dminuoso> maerwald: Again, I have multiple concurrent GHC versions installed
2020-10-23 15:27:04 +0200AlterEgo__(~ladew@124-198-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2020-10-23 15:27:07 +0200jud^(~jud@cpe-70-113-106-222.austin.res.rr.com)
2020-10-23 15:27:10 +0200 <maerwald> cabal build -w ~/.ghcup/bin/ghc-8.8.4
2020-10-23 15:27:22 +0200xerox__(~xerox@unaffiliated/xerox)
2020-10-23 15:27:47 +0200Merfont(~Kaiepi@nwcsnbsc03w-47-55-225-82.dhcp-dynamic.fibreop.nb.bellaliant.net)
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2020-10-23 15:28:27 +0200jil`(~user@45.86.162.6)
2020-10-23 15:28:38 +0200 <dminuoso> I still feel like ghc should offer plumbing commands.
2020-10-23 15:28:40 +0200 <dminuoso> *ghcup
2020-10-23 15:28:59 +0200jud(~jud@unaffiliated/jud) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-23 15:28:59 +0200 <merijn> lifehack: https://github.com/merijn/dotfiles/blob/master/dotfiles/bash_env#L24-L28 ;)
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2020-10-23 15:28:59 +0200 <merijn> Needs some tweaking to match ghcup's paths, though
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2020-10-23 15:29:19 +0200 <merijn> dminuoso: So, if you have them all in your path then "ghc-8.8.4" will "just work"
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2020-10-23 15:29:26 +0200haasn(~nand@mpv/developer/haasn)
2020-10-23 15:29:36 +0200 <maerwald> I don't really understand the problem here
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2020-10-23 15:31:19 +0200 <dminuoso> merijn: Ah, indeed they are!
2020-10-23 15:31:36 +0200 <dminuoso> That's nice and works well
2020-10-23 15:31:42 +0200Cathy(~Cathy@unaffiliated/cathy)
2020-10-23 15:31:54 +0200 <dminuoso> Has the added advantage that the CI doesnt make assumptions about ghcup being installed
2020-10-23 15:31:54 +0200 <merijn> dminuoso: Then the trick is just to have the right "default" GHC first so that "ghc" pick the right one (which might not be important for CI)
2020-10-23 15:32:01 +0200 <dminuoso> It just demands a particular GHC version to be in path
2020-10-23 15:32:03 +0200 <dminuoso> :)
2020-10-23 15:32:15 +0200 <dminuoso> merijn: in case of ghcup, ghc itself is a symlink managed by ghcup
2020-10-23 15:32:17 +0200 <dminuoso> I didnt know that
2020-10-23 15:32:21 +0200 <dminuoso> I thought ghcup did PATH manipulation
2020-10-23 15:32:42 +0200 <dminuoso> Cheers this is good
2020-10-23 15:33:25 +0200 <maerwald> dminuoso: no, you have to modify PATH yourself, that's why we get mac users every day asking here how to do that
2020-10-23 15:33:34 +0200 <dminuoso> heh
2020-10-23 15:33:36 +0200 <dminuoso> fair enough
2020-10-23 15:33:43 +0200 <dminuoso> well, at any rate. merijn's suggested answer is good :)
2020-10-23 15:34:28 +0200 <maerwald> if you don't want to expose the symlinks, you can just export ~/.ghcup/ghc/<ver>/bin
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2020-10-23 16:38:57 +0200 <carter> merijn: you’re off #numerical-haskell just when it’s picking up again ;)
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2020-10-23 17:30:28 +0200hackagemu-avro 0.4.0.1 - Avro serialization support for Mu microservices https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mu-avro-0.4.0.1 (AlejandroSerrano)
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2020-10-23 17:46:03 +0200 <ulidtko> does stack allow to pick only the lib component (and ignore/skip the exe:'s) of a package from extra-deps ?
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2020-10-23 17:48:33 +0200 <ulidtko> i see that stack allows passing flags to extra-deps... but this package has no flag to disable the exe: component
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2020-10-23 17:52:39 +0200 <ulidtko> fork it you say? well maybe, vendoring this one will certainly work, but I don't know how many more deps will need vendoring like that
2020-10-23 17:53:37 +0200MarcelineVQ(~anja@198.254.202.72) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-10-23 17:53:39 +0200 <lep-delete> i feel like this is impossible but let's say i have a function `f :: (Read a) => String -> [a] -> [a]; f v xs = read v : xs` is it possible to supply @a at runtime? like from a typerep or smth?
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2020-10-23 17:54:06 +0200 <merijn> lep-delete: Well, tht sounds like a scary terrible idea :)
2020-10-23 17:54:25 +0200 <lep-delete> eh, maybe, mostly lazy
2020-10-23 17:55:00 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2020-10-23 17:55:11 +0200 <lep-delete> (i could go into my specific use-case but i *think* the above should give the general idea)
2020-10-23 17:56:03 +0200 <ulidtko> lep-delete, the question is, why don't you know the specific `a` at `f` call site
2020-10-23 17:56:33 +0200 <ulidtko> and where the "runtime" choice of `a` comes from
2020-10-23 17:56:36 +0200 <merijn> A better question would be "are you really sure you wanna use Read?" :p
2020-10-23 17:56:37 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-10-23 17:56:44 +0200 <ulidtko> that, too
2020-10-23 17:56:46 +0200 <lep-delete> no, but Read is the closest
2020-10-23 17:56:52 +0200 <lep-delete> i would use some binary serialisation
2020-10-23 17:56:59 +0200 <lep-delete> let me get into my use-case
2020-10-23 17:57:20 +0200sfvm(~sfvm@37.228.215.148)
2020-10-23 17:58:58 +0200 <lep-delete> i have a data type with more structure than a list but let's use a list for now. i want a program where i can supply a string v, then read a list xs::[a] from a file and have read v:xs written back to that file. now i want to be able to use that program for [Int], [Real], [Maybe Int], you get it w/o recompiling it for every new file
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2020-10-23 17:59:42 +0200hnOsmium0001(uid453710@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hspucayepdiagala)
2020-10-23 17:59:47 +0200 <hyperisco> so I have strings and I want a reasonably unique hash for each string… what is my simplest path? cryponite looks possible but complicated
2020-10-23 18:00:10 +0200 <monsterchrom> How do I tell your program "I want [Int]"?
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2020-10-23 18:00:31 +0200 <monsterchrom> What is the exact syntax, for starters? (Next will be "what is the semantics of that syntax?")
2020-10-23 18:00:33 +0200 <lep-delete> either i provide it or read it from a file
2020-10-23 18:00:38 +0200 <hyperisco> like, md5 :: String -> String would make me happy
2020-10-23 18:00:39 +0200conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
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2020-10-23 18:01:22 +0200 <lep-delete> i dont know enough about Data.{Data,Typeable,Dynamic} to say whether it's possible or not
2020-10-23 18:01:29 +0200 <ulidtko> lep-delete, your serialization format will need to have something like a tagged-union
2020-10-23 18:01:30 +0200 <monsterchrom> What is the exact syntax, for starters? (Next will be "what is the semantics of that syntax?")
2020-10-23 18:01:42 +0200 <ulidtko> then you simply case match on it
2020-10-23 18:01:54 +0200 <ulidtko> here, look, reading images https://github.com/Twinside/Juicy.Pixels/blob/master/src/Codec/Picture.hs#L426-L435
2020-10-23 18:02:12 +0200 <ulidtko> it's really simple and there's no "high level" "type magic" involved
2020-10-23 18:02:18 +0200 <lep-delete> sure but a tagged union would need like all possible cases in beforehand, no?
2020-10-23 18:02:34 +0200 <lep-delete> im aware of the "normal" way
2020-10-23 18:02:36 +0200 <monsterchrom> What are your "all possible" cases?
2020-10-23 18:02:51 +0200 <monsterchrom> I was trying to extract that from "what is the exact syntax?"
2020-10-23 18:03:15 +0200 <ulidtko> yes, of course; otherwise what exactly would you mean by the serialization format ?
2020-10-23 18:03:22 +0200 <monsterchrom> Anyway talking only in the "abstract" is the root of all evil.
2020-10-23 18:03:46 +0200 <ulidtko> like, what monsterchrom says, define concretely what you need
2020-10-23 18:04:30 +0200 <lep-delete> simple example as above, i want the user supply a string value, have it `read` and append it to a list, which is stored `show`ed in a file
2020-10-23 18:04:41 +0200 <lep-delete> so anything that can be (Read a, Show a)
2020-10-23 18:04:59 +0200 <lep-delete> or ( ToJSON a, FromJSON a), or whatever
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2020-10-23 18:05:27 +0200 <ulidtko> use Json Value then?
2020-10-23 18:05:33 +0200 <ulidtko> the untyped thing
2020-10-23 18:05:48 +0200 <monsterchrom> If you say, "all legal Haskell types", you will be linking the totalily of GHC. You don't want to go there.
2020-10-23 18:05:52 +0200 <lep-delete> well i have a concrete type for each file
2020-10-23 18:06:21 +0200 <monsterchrom> HOW MANY TYPES ARE THERE?
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2020-10-23 18:11:31 +0200danza(~francesco@151.74.98.117)
2020-10-23 18:13:02 +0200christo(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 18:13:23 +0200chele(~chele@ip5b416ea2.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 18:15:38 +0200 <dolio> A proper class.
2020-10-23 18:15:48 +0200 <monsterchrom> heh
2020-10-23 18:16:13 +0200ulidtko(~ulidtko@193.111.48.79) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-23 18:16:27 +0200thir(~thir@p200300f27f19de00a929a56a6a990c9a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2020-10-23 18:16:28 +0200hackagegopro-plus 0.4.1.0 - GoPro Plus Client API. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gopro-plus-0.4.1.0 (dustin)
2020-10-23 18:16:32 +0200ulidtko(~ulidtko@193.111.48.79)
2020-10-23 18:16:42 +0200christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-10-23 18:17:09 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-239.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2020-10-23 18:17:29 +0200dbmikus(~dbmikus@cpe-76-167-86-219.natsow.res.rr.com)
2020-10-23 18:19:58 +0200hackagehappstack-server 7.7.0 - Web related tools and services. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/happstack-server-7.7.0 (JeremyShaw)
2020-10-23 18:22:38 +0200dbmikus(~dbmikus@cpe-76-167-86-219.natsow.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 18:24:32 +0200raichoo(~raichoo@213.240.178.58) (Quit: Lost terminal)
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2020-10-23 18:27:19 +0200kritzefitz(~kritzefit@212.86.56.80)
2020-10-23 18:29:59 +0200__monty__(~toonn@unaffiliated/toonn)
2020-10-23 18:30:11 +0200moy(5a319fdb@lfbn-nan-1-68-219.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2020-10-23 18:30:36 +0200moyGuest45505
2020-10-23 18:31:07 +0200 <Guest45505> im wondering, how many thread can i open in concurrency within a haskell programm ? do one thread === one CPU core ?
2020-10-23 18:31:41 +0200 <Rembane> Guest45505: What kind of threads?
2020-10-23 18:32:00 +0200 <Guest45505> those that you open by calling forkIO for example
2020-10-23 18:32:01 +0200christo(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 18:32:47 +0200 <texasmynsted> I know this is a terrible question but . . . There are many options for writing "shell scripts" using Haskell. Too many for me to select one.
2020-10-23 18:33:21 +0200 <c_wraith> Guest45505: So... this is actually sort of complex, because GHC has a couple options that completely change how threads work. But in no case is a GHC thread an OS thread
2020-10-23 18:33:28 +0200 <texasmynsted> If my goal was to improve my Haskell skill, especially for streaming and concurrency, what would you recommend?
2020-10-23 18:34:04 +0200 <Rembane> texasmynsted: Go for the turtle one!
2020-10-23 18:34:16 +0200 <monsterchrom> "Green threads", i.e, many Haskell threads cramped to N cores, you choose N.
2020-10-23 18:34:27 +0200 <Rembane> texasmynsted: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/turtle
2020-10-23 18:34:34 +0200 <monsterchrom> Even if you have 64 cores you can tell the RTS to use just 2 cores.
2020-10-23 18:34:54 +0200 <monsterchrom> In fact "green threads" is more nuanced than that.
2020-10-23 18:34:57 +0200 <c_wraith> Guest45505: GHC has two different options for runtimes that can be linked in to programs it compiles. One uses a single thread for all Haskell code, which lets it skip all kinds of locking and synchronization primitives.
2020-10-23 18:34:58 +0200 <texasmynsted> why turtle. That is . . . not what I expected.
2020-10-23 18:35:32 +0200 <c_wraith> Guest45505: the other is what monsterchrom is describing, where it can split the Haskell threads across multiple OS threads.
2020-10-23 18:35:33 +0200 <monsterchrom> But if you know Java's "green threads", that's what we have too.
2020-10-23 18:36:34 +0200 <texasmynsted> lol. First thing it says is install Stack. (If I use turtle it will not be with Stack.)
2020-10-23 18:37:00 +0200 <Rembane> I propose that you can for all practical intents and purposes have an infinite amount of "green threads" and things will work just fine.
2020-10-23 18:37:14 +0200 <Rembane> texasmynsted: What was what you expected?
2020-10-23 18:37:17 +0200 <Guest45505> monsterchrom ok i see, thats much clearer for me now, thanks
2020-10-23 18:38:32 +0200Kolkrabe(~user@unaffiliated/siracusa)
2020-10-23 18:38:44 +0200thir(~thir@p200300f27f19de00a929a56a6a990c9a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 18:38:54 +0200thir(~thir@p4febc6a5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2020-10-23 18:39:05 +0200ensyde(~ensyde@2600:1702:2e30:1a40:9c62:9bf3:3478:5d05)
2020-10-23 18:39:11 +0200 <texasmynsted> Shell-conduit or something?
2020-10-23 18:40:09 +0200Guest18(567e8866@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.86.126.136.102) (Quit: Connection closed)
2020-10-23 18:41:55 +0200 <Rembane> Cool, I have never used it. :)
2020-10-23 18:42:20 +0200LKoen(~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr)
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2020-10-23 18:45:01 +0200GyroW_(~GyroW@unaffiliated/gyrow) (Quit: Someone ate my pie)
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2020-10-23 18:45:20 +0200GyroW(~GyroW@ptr-48ujrfd1ztq5fjywfw3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Changing host)
2020-10-23 18:45:20 +0200GyroW(~GyroW@unaffiliated/gyrow)
2020-10-23 18:45:27 +0200dbmikus(~dbmikus@cpe-76-167-86-219.natsow.res.rr.com)
2020-10-23 18:46:32 +0200 <ulidtko> texasmynsted, best option for shell scripts is... bash.
2020-10-23 18:46:49 +0200conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-10-23 18:46:59 +0200 <ulidtko> however -- check out https://www.shellcheck.net it's written in haskell if that gives you the warm fuzzy feeling
2020-10-23 18:47:10 +0200christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-10-23 18:48:45 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@unaffiliated/--/x-3805311)
2020-10-23 18:49:08 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 18:49:35 +0200dcoutts_(~duncan@33.14.75.194.dyn.plus.net)
2020-10-23 18:49:39 +0200 <texasmynsted> ulidtko: I agree with you. I just mean for things that "outgrow" a shell script.
2020-10-23 18:50:02 +0200dumptruckman(dumptruckm@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe6e:2cfd) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 18:50:03 +0200danza(~francesco@151.74.98.117) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-10-23 18:50:09 +0200Guest_47(c04c085e@client-8-94.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk)
2020-10-23 18:50:23 +0200jared-w_(uid405292@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zblwaowsatpvgcgl)
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2020-10-23 18:50:28 +0200jtmar(~james@jtmar.me)
2020-10-23 18:50:30 +0200PoliticsII______(sid193551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vnvglhlgcdrmzohj)
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2020-10-23 18:50:42 +0200PotatoGim_(sid99505@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xnlvbpmqvvvvzlzi)
2020-10-23 18:50:43 +0200MTwister(~Twister@claudia.s7t.de)
2020-10-23 18:50:45 +0200cohn(~noone@unaffiliated/cohn) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-10-23 18:50:45 +0200rann_(sid175221@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rsexmirciwaviewy)
2020-10-23 18:50:58 +0200conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-10-23 18:51:15 +0200 <ulidtko> yes, that happens all the time. either rewrite it, or deal with it (shellcheck is really helpful, also following consistent style)
2020-10-23 18:51:47 +0200rotaerk(rotaerk@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe70:4a45) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 18:52:17 +0200asheshambasta(~user@ptr-e1lysawl9rr13i61o92.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-10-23 18:52:53 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-73-24-27-54.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-10-23 18:52:58 +0200holo1(~holo@nikky.moe)
2020-10-23 18:53:05 +0200weechat_2(~mingc@2400:8902::f03c:91ff:feb7:8e82)
2020-10-23 18:53:09 +0200nikola3(~nikola@2a03:b0c0:2:d0::dc2:c001)
2020-10-23 18:53:16 +0200 <texasmynsted> Yes, I love shellscript.
2020-10-23 18:53:17 +0200xerox_(~xerox@unaffiliated/xerox)
2020-10-23 18:53:24 +0200 <texasmynsted> I mean shellcheck
2020-10-23 18:53:33 +0200 <texasmynsted> I have it integrated into vim
2020-10-23 18:53:59 +0200 <ulidtko> as for rewriting options: I sort of fail to see the point to "emulate" bash and try to make it look like shellscript...
2020-10-23 18:54:06 +0200 <ulidtko> same
2020-10-23 18:54:07 +0200entropyga1n(levitate@unaffiliated/entropygain)
2020-10-23 18:54:34 +0200 <ulidtko> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/HSH-2.1.3 using this one, you can spawn processes and pipes "just like" in bash
2020-10-23 18:55:09 +0200 <ulidtko> but all the ['extra', 'syntax'] makes you really want to go back to bash instead
2020-10-23 18:55:50 +0200tolt_(kevin@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe79:6b76)
2020-10-23 18:55:54 +0200christo(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 18:56:01 +0200 <ulidtko> so, a good linter like shellcheck really hits the sweat spot IMO
2020-10-23 18:56:02 +0200heredoc(heredoc@2a01:7e01::f03c:91ff:fec1:de1d)
2020-10-23 18:56:19 +0200mursu_(~ngWalrus@2a03:b0c0:3:d0::5ebd:2001)
2020-10-23 18:56:26 +0200 <ulidtko> (*sweet haha)
2020-10-23 18:56:32 +0200nkly_(~nkly@2a02:8109:9a80:a74:201:2eff:fe81:c6dd)
2020-10-23 18:56:37 +0200tito_04(~taurux@net-93-144-10-197.cust.vodafonedsl.it) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-10-23 18:56:43 +0200noexcept_(~noexcept@2a03:b0c0:3:d0::33:9001)
2020-10-23 18:57:12 +0200 <texasmynsted> I am not trying to emulate bash. Rather I am trying to find the best way to interact with shell processes that do not have a haskell module.
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2020-10-23 18:58:14 +0200 <texasmynsted> hmm. all good points
2020-10-23 18:58:38 +0200taurux(~taurux@net-188-152-79-151.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
2020-10-23 19:00:07 +0200Cthalupa(~cthulhu@47.186.47.75) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-10-23 19:00:36 +0200stree(~stree@50-108-72-205.adr01.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net) (Excess Flood)
2020-10-23 19:00:41 +0200GyroW(~GyroW@unaffiliated/gyrow) (Quit: Someone ate my pie)
2020-10-23 19:00:55 +0200stree(~stree@50-108-72-205.adr01.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
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2020-10-23 19:00:59 +0200GyroW(~GyroW@ptr-48ujrfd1ztq5fjywfw3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Changing host)
2020-10-23 19:00:59 +0200GyroW(~GyroW@unaffiliated/gyrow)
2020-10-23 19:01:37 +0200christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-10-23 19:01:57 +0200hackagehappstack-server-tls 7.2.1.1 - extend happstack-server with https:// support (TLS/SSL) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/happstack-server-tls-7.2.1.1 (JeremyShaw)
2020-10-23 19:02:23 +0200 <Guest_47> ugh hi I'm a mac user trying to install haskell via ghcup but I keep getting this error message
2020-10-23 19:02:26 +0200 <Guest_47> dyld: lazy symbol binding failed: Symbol not found: _futimens Referenced from: /Users/georgewang/.ghcup/bin/ghcup (which was built for Mac OS X 10.13) Expected in: /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylibdyld: Symbol not found: _futimens Referenced from: /Users/georgewang/.ghcup/bin/ghcup (which was built for Mac OS X 10.13) Expected in:
2020-10-23 19:02:26 +0200 <Guest_47> /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylibsh: line 35: 25979 Abort trap: 6 ghcup "$@""_eghcup --cache install ghc recommended" failed!
2020-10-23 19:02:37 +0200Cthalupa(~cthulhu@47.186.47.75)
2020-10-23 19:03:02 +0200 <maerwald> Guest_47: what's your mac version?
2020-10-23 19:03:05 +0200britva(~britva@2a02:aa13:7240:2980:b1bf:9c31:7687:bea1)
2020-10-23 19:03:16 +0200 <Guest_47> 10.12
2020-10-23 19:03:31 +0200 <maerwald> not supported
2020-10-23 19:03:35 +0200 <Guest_47> oof
2020-10-23 19:03:51 +0200 <maerwald> I'm not even sure ghc itself will run there
2020-10-23 19:04:02 +0200 <maerwald> and cabal
2020-10-23 19:04:30 +0200 <__monty__> Course they will.
2020-10-23 19:04:41 +0200 <maerwald> __monty__: did you try?
2020-10-23 19:04:45 +0200jkaye[m](jkayematri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cptxfbojabslrjcy)
2020-10-23 19:04:47 +0200 <__monty__> At least, they work for me built with a darwin version of 10.12.
2020-10-23 19:04:58 +0200holo1Faye
2020-10-23 19:05:03 +0200wrunt[m](wruntmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-tobpdugmvlykanbe)
2020-10-23 19:05:17 +0200 <maerwald> __monty__: I'm talking about the official bindists
2020-10-23 19:05:36 +0200 <merijn> GHC supports 10.7 or later, iirc
2020-10-23 19:05:52 +0200 <monsterchrom> Now commences going out of one's way to give ghcup an obscure URL to download from. :)
2020-10-23 19:05:55 +0200rotty(rotty@ghost.xx.vu) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-10-23 19:06:02 +0200chreekat[m](chreekatma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-tbcdmvvmfcadbfxu)
2020-10-23 19:06:07 +0200 <merijn> monsterchrom: It's the same URL as the regular macOS one
2020-10-23 19:06:34 +0200 <merijn> Guest_47: If you're commandline savvy you can just install the bindist yourself from here: https://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_8_10_2.html#macosx_x86_64
2020-10-23 19:06:34 +0200pqwy[m](pqwymatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-htkzhbylfcdwfzyr)
2020-10-23 19:06:47 +0200 <merijn> Which (at least claims) to work on anything later than 10.7
2020-10-23 19:07:05 +0200 <Guest_47> aha
2020-10-23 19:07:09 +0200 <Guest_47> cheers, I'll try that
2020-10-23 19:07:31 +0200 <merijn> Guest_47: It's just a matter of "./configure --prefix=whatever/path/you/want && make install"
2020-10-23 19:07:54 +0200kadoban(kadobanmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ibzwjrmlfzihcpnq)
2020-10-23 19:08:02 +0200themsay[m](themsaymat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bqmyhbzuevubqaxn)
2020-10-23 19:08:11 +0200sm[m](simonmicma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-tilmtmvnszzwjtcv)
2020-10-23 19:08:13 +0200domenkozar[m](domenkozar@NixOS/user/domenkozar)
2020-10-23 19:08:21 +0200 <merijn> Ah, I'm not sure if cabal-install has prebuilt binaries for that, though, although there should be a bootstrap script to compile it with just GHC installed
2020-10-23 19:08:32 +0200mikr[m](mikrdavral@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jnlucypbifmucvfy)
2020-10-23 19:09:16 +0200 <__monty__> (If all else fails, nixpkgs has both GHC and cabal-install cached so you could install them with nix.)
2020-10-23 19:09:19 +0200sureyeaah(shauryab98@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-yafeivvctuhylrnm)
2020-10-23 19:10:24 +0200 <__monty__> Though I guess brew should have both too.
2020-10-23 19:12:02 +0200heatsink(~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
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2020-10-23 19:16:16 +0200texasmynsted(~texasmyns@185.240.246.92) ()
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2020-10-23 19:29:15 +0200xelxebar(~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar)
2020-10-23 19:29:27 +0200 <maerwald> yes, install half another OS just to get GHC :p
2020-10-23 19:29:49 +0200denisse(~spaceCat@gateway/tor-sasl/alephzer0)
2020-10-23 19:30:00 +0200 <monsterchrom> I was procratinating ghcjs because of that. :)
2020-10-23 19:30:30 +0200raym(~ray@115.187.50.31) (Quit: leaving)
2020-10-23 19:31:10 +0200cantstanya(~chatting@gateway/tor-sasl/cantstanya)
2020-10-23 19:31:22 +0200 <jtmar> dumb question: is there any way to get this to work? `data U (a :: ()) where { U :: U (() :: ()) }` It fails with "Expected kind ‘()’, but ‘()’ has kind ‘*’"
2020-10-23 19:31:24 +0200 <maerwald> I bought 16GB more ram and 250GB more disk space, just so I can run a nix expression, which runs some stuff you could do in 50 LOC bash
2020-10-23 19:31:35 +0200thir_(~thir@p200300f27f19de001ce90606181a98e7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2020-10-23 19:31:39 +0200 <maerwald> (but it's reproducible)
2020-10-23 19:31:42 +0200andreas303(~andreas@gateway/tor-sasl/andreas303)
2020-10-23 19:32:50 +0200 <maerwald> when it doesn't OOM out, it works well
2020-10-23 19:33:31 +0200coot(~coot@37.30.51.94.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Quit: coot)
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2020-10-23 19:34:34 +0200gehmehgeh(~ircuser1@gateway/tor-sasl/gehmehgeh)
2020-10-23 19:34:34 +0200 <yushyin> ah yes, I know that problem, but just with cabal build :P
2020-10-23 19:34:51 +0200seanvert(~user@177.84.244.242)
2020-10-23 19:35:50 +0200Unhammer(~Unhammer@gateway/tor-sasl/unhammer)
2020-10-23 19:36:27 +0200hackageprolude 0.0.0.4 - ITProTV's custom prelude https://hackage.haskell.org/package/prolude-0.0.0.4 (saramuse)
2020-10-23 19:36:55 +0200Tario(~Tario@201.192.165.173)
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2020-10-23 19:39:34 +0200gxt(~gxt@gateway/tor-sasl/gxt)
2020-10-23 19:40:41 +0200 <monsterchrom> data U (a :: ()) where { U :: U '() }
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2020-10-23 19:54:22 +0200ClaudiusMaximus(~claude@unaffiliated/claudiusmaximus) (Quit: ->)
2020-10-23 19:56:16 +0200 <jtmar> oh, yeah, single quotes, right. thanks.
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2020-10-23 19:58:43 +0200 <monsterchrom> I think basically the parser stage doesn't have access to type/kind checking, so when it sees "X :: Y", it cannot infer "since Y is not Type, I see what you mean by X".
2020-10-23 20:00:01 +0200robotadam1(~robotadam@154.13.1.56) ()
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2020-10-23 20:06:05 +0200kritzefitz(~kritzefit@212.86.56.80)
2020-10-23 20:09:00 +0200 <__monty__> maerwald: Color me skeptical. I've run NixOS just fine with 2GB RAM.
2020-10-23 20:09:08 +0200dbmikus(~dbmikus@cpe-76-167-86-219.natsow.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2020-10-23 20:11:02 +0200 <maerwald> __monty__: yes, I have an expression that needs 6GB of memory (not the stuff it builds/compiles, but the nix-build process itself)
2020-10-23 20:11:12 +0200 <maerwald> that's some nice memory leak
2020-10-23 20:11:44 +0200geekosaur(82659a09@host154-009.vpn.uakron.edu) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2020-10-23 20:12:09 +0200 <__monty__> Then "I bought 16 GB more RAM" is very misleading.
2020-10-23 20:12:29 +0200chaosmasttter(~chaosmast@p200300c4a7138f0100d84ef38a79333e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2020-10-23 20:13:34 +0200emmanuel_erc(~user@2604:2000:1382:ce03:e840:9069:29cf:ab15)
2020-10-23 20:13:35 +0200rotaerk(rotaerk@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe70:4a45)
2020-10-23 20:13:56 +0200 <maerwald> the other half was for hls
2020-10-23 20:14:07 +0200britva(~britva@2a02:aa13:7240:2980:b1bf:9c31:7687:bea1) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2020-10-23 20:14:10 +0200 <maerwald> but that's crashing now most of the time, so I have free ram for nix
2020-10-23 20:14:23 +0200isovector1(~isovector@172.103.216.166)
2020-10-23 20:15:07 +0200 <monsterchrom> You should also discuss the "250GB disk space" and how misleading it also is, while you're at it.
2020-10-23 20:15:08 +0200marek(~mmahut@209.250.249.245) (Changing host)
2020-10-23 20:15:08 +0200marek(~mmahut@fedora/pyxel)
2020-10-23 20:15:24 +0200 <maerwald> yeah, half for nix, half for docker... they're racing
2020-10-23 20:15:44 +0200 <maerwald> the fun part about docker is the "prune" command never finishes
2020-10-23 20:15:58 +0200conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-10-23 20:16:27 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-73-24-27-54.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-10-23 20:16:58 +0200 <monsterchrom> Evergrowing space usage and neverending time usage.
2020-10-23 20:17:09 +0200 <maerwald> and when you try to stop it, you can't, because the daemon is blocked, then you kill everything and rm -rf
2020-10-23 20:17:58 +0200britva(~britva@2a02:aa13:7240:2980:b1bf:9c31:7687:bea1)
2020-10-23 20:17:59 +0200 <maerwald> bonus points for docker: it actually takes less time to "rebuild" than nix
2020-10-23 20:18:21 +0200 <maerwald> it just downloads gigabytes of trash, nix seems to spend more CPU
2020-10-23 20:19:55 +0200 <maerwald> I have this theory that half of nix IO load is due to `realpath`
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2020-10-23 20:34:28 +0200hackagecall-alloy 0.2.1.0 - A simple library to call Alloy given a specification https://hackage.haskell.org/package/call-alloy-0.2.1.0 (marcellus)
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2020-10-23 20:43:40 +0200 <monsterchrom> w00t Alloy
2020-10-23 20:43:40 +0200chkno(~chkno@75-7-2-127.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-23 20:43:53 +0200chkno(~chkno@75-7-2-127.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-10-23 20:44:29 +0200 <monsterchrom> Oh God no, "getInstances". Java abstract factory all over again.
2020-10-23 20:44:42 +0200ensyde(~ensyde@2600:1702:2e30:1a40:9c62:9bf3:3478:5d05) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 20:45:25 +0200dbmikus(~dbmikus@cpe-76-167-86-219.natsow.res.rr.com)
2020-10-23 20:47:28 +0200hackagepandoc 2.11.0.4 - Conversion between markup formats https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pandoc-2.11.0.4 (JohnMacFarlane)
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2020-10-23 21:11:57 +0200hackagefaktory 1.0.1.3 - Faktory Worker for Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/faktory-1.0.1.3 (PatrickBrisbin)
2020-10-23 21:15:41 +0200ericsagnes(~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:c0a:b447:b123:a55a)
2020-10-23 21:16:01 +0200christo(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2020-10-23 21:19:51 +0200wroathe_(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-10-23 21:21:09 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> __monty__: i have nixos on my rpi 3b
2020-10-23 21:21:56 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> with 32GB micro sd card
2020-10-23 21:22:23 +0200 <__monty__> DigitalKiwi: Yeah, it's possible, but it's not exactly an incredible UX. I was just not happy with painting nix as requiring 16GB RAM.
2020-10-23 21:23:44 +0200blip(58823ddf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.88.130.61.223)
2020-10-23 21:24:02 +0200 <dminuoso> *memory
2020-10-23 21:24:08 +0200 <blip> Why can't I define `data A = B | Proxy 'B`
2020-10-23 21:24:12 +0200conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-10-23 21:24:27 +0200 <dminuoso> blip: That, arguably, is better asked in #ghc :p
2020-10-23 21:24:38 +0200wroathe_(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 21:24:41 +0200 <maerwald> __monty__: if one nix-build process requires 6GB and you have firefox open, you need more than 16GB
2020-10-23 21:25:00 +0200 <davean> blip: Proxy?
2020-10-23 21:25:06 +0200 <dminuoso> blip: It seems like an engineering problem, allowing for self-recursive data declarations
2020-10-23 21:25:11 +0200 <maerwald> correction: the nix-build process needed 6GB, ghc then needed another few
2020-10-23 21:25:12 +0200NinjaTrappeur(~ninja@unaffiliated/ninjatrappeur) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 21:25:15 +0200 <blip> Sorry, I mean't: `data A = B | C (Proxy B)`
2020-10-23 21:25:25 +0200 <dminuoso> blip: Still.
2020-10-23 21:25:38 +0200 <dminuoso> It doesn't really change, as the initial example is fine too
2020-10-23 21:25:40 +0200chkno(~chkno@75-7-2-127.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-23 21:25:44 +0200conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Client Quit)
2020-10-23 21:25:50 +0200chkno(~chkno@75-7-2-127.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-10-23 21:25:53 +0200 <davean> blip: Well, at best you'd need DataKinds, and B is a constructor not a type its self
2020-10-23 21:25:55 +0200 <dminuoso> blip: I'd git blame the ghc source code on the diagnostic.
2020-10-23 21:26:05 +0200 <dminuoso> All I know is, there's a reason we have a *special* diagnostic for it
2020-10-23 21:26:06 +0200ukari(~ukari@unaffiliated/ukari) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 21:26:09 +0200 <blip> davean: I know, it's promoted
2020-10-23 21:26:09 +0200 <dminuoso> % :set -XDataKinds
2020-10-23 21:26:09 +0200 <yahb> dminuoso:
2020-10-23 21:26:13 +0200 <dminuoso> % data Foo = Foo Foo
2020-10-23 21:26:14 +0200 <yahb> dminuoso:
2020-10-23 21:26:18 +0200conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-10-23 21:26:18 +0200 <dminuoso> % data Foo = Foo 'Foo
2020-10-23 21:26:19 +0200 <yahb> dminuoso: ; <interactive>:140:16: error:; * Data constructor `Foo' cannot be used here (it is defined and used in the same recursive group); * In the type 'Foo; In the definition of data constructor `Foo'; In the data declaration for `Foo'
2020-10-23 21:26:34 +0200 <blip> Yeah, that's understandable, the compiler would loop
2020-10-23 21:26:36 +0200 <davean> I mean you can't generate an infinite type either
2020-10-23 21:27:01 +0200 <dminuoso> blip: Hold on, in the above, is the B supposed to have a tick or not?
2020-10-23 21:27:03 +0200 <blip> But if I promote another constructor it's not infinite
2020-10-23 21:27:07 +0200 <blip> yep
2020-10-23 21:27:12 +0200 <blip> they are omittable
2020-10-23 21:27:14 +0200 <dminuoso> blip: But that's the same example.
2020-10-23 21:27:25 +0200 <dminuoso> Im just aksing because it could be ambgiuous without more context
2020-10-23 21:27:35 +0200 <dminuoso> Oh, my example was poor
2020-10-23 21:27:46 +0200 <dminuoso> % data Foo = F 'F
2020-10-23 21:27:46 +0200 <yahb> dminuoso: ; <interactive>:141:14: error:; * Data constructor `F' cannot be used here (it is defined and used in the same recursive group); * In the type 'F; In the definition of data constructor `F'; In the data declaration for `Foo'
2020-10-23 21:28:09 +0200 <blip> data Foo = F | X (Proxy F')
2020-10-23 21:28:12 +0200 <blip> darn
2020-10-23 21:28:16 +0200 <dminuoso> Note the choice of the word "group"
2020-10-23 21:28:21 +0200 <blip> data Foo = F | X (Proxy 'F)
2020-10-23 21:28:44 +0200 <blip> yes, I know that it doesn't work. The question is why.
2020-10-23 21:29:10 +0200 <dminuoso> blip: Ask Richard Eisenberg? :p
2020-10-23 21:29:12 +0200christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-10-23 21:29:49 +0200 <dminuoso> Almost confident it's an GHC engineering problem
2020-10-23 21:30:35 +0200 <blip> I'm solving that in a very ugly and unsafe way with Symbols
2020-10-23 21:30:38 +0200 <dminuoso> blip: See note [Recursion and promoting data constructors]
2020-10-23 21:30:50 +0200 <dminuoso> in compiler/GHC/Tc/TyCl.hs
2020-10-23 21:30:58 +0200dcoutts_(~duncan@33.14.75.194.dyn.plus.net)
2020-10-23 21:31:23 +0200aarvar(~foewfoiew@50.35.43.33)
2020-10-23 21:31:43 +0200 <dminuoso> Mmm that note doesnt actually contain something useful
2020-10-23 21:32:14 +0200 <dminuoso> But perhaps this would loop the kind checker when the data declaration is checked?
2020-10-23 21:32:26 +0200N3RGY(~N3RGY@65.141.87.122)
2020-10-23 21:33:08 +0200ubert(~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf10db38e6b318fffe838f33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 21:33:12 +0200 <blip> I think it would loop if you would reference the same Constructor
2020-10-23 21:33:28 +0200 <blip> data A = B (Proxy 'B)
2020-10-23 21:33:56 +0200 <blip> Or mutal recursion: data A = B (Proxy 'C) | C (Proxy 'B)
2020-10-23 21:34:23 +0200 <dminuoso> blip: again, this is probably better asked in #ghc, the ghc dev mailing list or the issue tracker. :)
2020-10-23 21:34:27 +0200conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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2020-10-23 21:34:52 +0200 <blip> dminuoso: ok, thanks. I'll ponder it a bit and ask tomorrow in #ghc
2020-10-23 21:35:16 +0200 <dminuoso> The mailing list is likely a better candidate
2020-10-23 21:35:39 +0200conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-10-23 21:35:45 +0200 <blip> ok
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2020-10-23 21:51:39 +0200 <blip> dminuoso: another question, is there a function Foo with following properties: `data A = B; Foo 'B = "B" :: Symbol`
2020-10-23 21:52:02 +0200 <blip> like ShowType from the type error messages, but which returns a Symbol and not a Text
2020-10-23 21:53:25 +0200invaser(~Thunderbi@31.148.23.125)
2020-10-23 21:53:47 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-10-23 21:54:10 +0200conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-10-23 21:55:43 +0200 <dminuoso> blip: There's only the bits for type errors
2020-10-23 21:55:46 +0200notnatebtw(~nate@110.138.18.157) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
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2020-10-23 21:56:57 +0200 <blip> hm, i'll try to unsafeCoerce, perhaps it's under the hood the same
2020-10-23 21:56:59 +0200Quarl(~Quarl@94.191.136.110.mobile.tre.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-23 21:57:30 +0200 <dminuoso> unsafeCoerce on the type level?
2020-10-23 21:57:34 +0200 <dminuoso> We have that?
2020-10-23 21:57:37 +0200thir(~thir@p200300f27f19de001ce90606181a98e7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 21:58:05 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-10-23 21:58:14 +0200 <blip> with proxies
2020-10-23 21:59:06 +0200 <blip> unsafeCoerce :: KnownSymbol a => Proxy ErrorMessage -> Proxy a
2020-10-23 21:59:07 +0200 <blip> ?
2020-10-23 21:59:45 +0200alp(~alp@2a01:e0a:58b:4920:552d:a100:fe9e:8159) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-10-23 22:01:26 +0200 <dminuoso> blip: What's your intention here?
2020-10-23 22:02:02 +0200 <blip> I want to get the name of a promoted constructor as a Symbol
2020-10-23 22:02:44 +0200conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-10-23 22:03:00 +0200asheshambasta(~user@ptr-e1lysawl9rr13i61o92.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2020-10-23 22:04:01 +0200gxt(~gxt@gateway/tor-sasl/gxt) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 22:04:08 +0200 <ghoulguy> To get constructors as symbols I'd expect you to have to write some TH to actually generate the code
2020-10-23 22:04:45 +0200gxt(~gxt@gateway/tor-sasl/gxt)
2020-10-23 22:04:48 +0200 <ghoulguy> Like a: type family AsSymbol (a :: k) :: Symbol -- and then a bunch of generated instances
2020-10-23 22:05:36 +0200 <blip> If they aren't promoted it would work via generics
2020-10-23 22:06:52 +0200asheshambasta(~user@ptr-e1lysawl9rr13i61o92.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 22:06:57 +0200 <ghoulguy> yeah, looks like it
2020-10-23 22:06:59 +0200 <blip> Yeah, I'd love to avoid TH
2020-10-23 22:07:04 +0200notnatebtw(~nate@110.138.18.157)
2020-10-23 22:08:15 +0200 <ghoulguy> >>> data T = C deriving (Generic)
2020-10-23 22:08:15 +0200 <ghoulguy> >>> :kind! Rep T ()
2020-10-23 22:08:15 +0200 <ghoulguy> Rep T () :: * = D1 ('MetaData "T" "Ghci3" "interactive" 'False) (C1 ('MetaCons "C" 'PrefixI 'False) U1) ()
2020-10-23 22:08:45 +0200 <ghoulguy> "T" is a Symbol there
2020-10-23 22:08:57 +0200 <blip> Yes, and "C" as well.
2020-10-23 22:10:47 +0200mirrorbird(~psutcliff@2a00:801:42b:7891:16b1:e53f:55b2:15e1)
2020-10-23 22:11:49 +0200irc_user(uid423822@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-alxceqcksustqekt)
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2020-10-23 22:12:48 +0200texasmynsted(~texasmyns@185.240.246.92) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 22:12:50 +0200bartemius(~bartemius@109-252-20-20.nat.spd-mgts.ru)
2020-10-23 22:13:27 +0200texasmynsted(~texasmyns@185.240.246.92)
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2020-10-23 22:14:45 +0200 <blip> I'd want to have `data T = A | B` and a function F (a :: T) which gives F 'B = "B"
2020-10-23 22:15:03 +0200 <blip> and I think that's not possible with generics
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2020-10-23 22:18:49 +0200texasmynsted(~texasmyns@185.240.246.92) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-10-23 22:19:03 +0200 <ghoulguy> GHC.Generics operate on types of kind * -> * and *
2020-10-23 22:19:08 +0200texasmynsted(~texasmyns@185.240.246.92)
2020-10-23 22:19:55 +0200texasmyn_(~texasmyns@185.240.246.92)
2020-10-23 22:20:02 +0200 <blip> yes, that's the problem
2020-10-23 22:20:19 +0200 <blip> wrapping in Proxy doesn't help
2020-10-23 22:20:24 +0200rprije(~rprije@194-193-168-77.tpgi.com.au)
2020-10-23 22:21:52 +0200 <blip> well, sounds like TH is the only way foreward
2020-10-23 22:21:55 +0200 <blip> or a plugin
2020-10-23 22:22:32 +0200heatsink(~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-10-23 22:22:52 +0200Deide(~Deide@217.155.19.23) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 22:23:19 +0200 <ghoulguy> Or just write it out by hand if it's a small number of cases
2020-10-23 22:23:28 +0200texasmynsted(~texasmyns@185.240.246.92) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-10-23 22:23:36 +0200 <ghoulguy> if it's not write it out by hand to make sure you like the API before you invest TH time on it :)
2020-10-23 22:24:04 +0200 <blip> about 100 promoted constructors :)
2020-10-23 22:24:24 +0200 <ghoulguy> a job for an editor macro then
2020-10-23 22:25:13 +0200 <blip> yes, the code would be easily generated. I'd just love to avoid inflating my source files
2020-10-23 22:25:43 +0200 <ghoulguy> I'd expect the impact of a plugin or TH to be higher
2020-10-23 22:25:47 +0200 <monsterchrom> "F 'B = ..." makes F either a type family or a term-level function Proxy T -> ...
2020-10-23 22:25:59 +0200thir(~thir@p200300f27f19de001ce90606181a98e7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2020-10-23 22:26:08 +0200 <ghoulguy> f :: proxy t -> SomeSymbol
2020-10-23 22:26:54 +0200 <ghoulguy> err: proxy T
2020-10-23 22:26:54 +0200 <blip> monsterchrom: I'd prefer to avoid term-level
2020-10-23 22:27:01 +0200 <ghoulguy> probably nicer to do the type family
2020-10-23 22:27:09 +0200heatsink(~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-10-23 22:27:37 +0200 <blip> proxy (x :: T)
2020-10-23 22:27:42 +0200 <ghoulguy> as a term-level it'd be a class method
2020-10-23 22:28:06 +0200 <blip> yes, but type level guarantees no runtime overhead
2020-10-23 22:28:13 +0200 <blip> term-level is always a risk
2020-10-23 22:28:35 +0200 <ghoulguy> type-level means you won't know if you have a knownsymbol constraint to use
2020-10-23 22:28:43 +0200 <ghoulguy> which might not matter
2020-10-23 22:28:56 +0200 <ghoulguy> You can always just assert one
2020-10-23 22:29:05 +0200 <ghoulguy> KnownSymbol (F thing) =>
2020-10-23 22:29:22 +0200 <ghoulguy> sounds like a mess either way :)
2020-10-23 22:29:42 +0200invaser(~Thunderbi@31.148.23.125) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 22:29:58 +0200 <blip> I think I'll go for the type family
2020-10-23 22:30:21 +0200 <Uniaika> hello there
2020-10-23 22:30:27 +0200 <blip> type family Bananas (x :: A) where Bananas B = "B" etc...
2020-10-23 22:30:47 +0200 <blip> hello
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2020-10-23 22:38:27 +0200hackagestack2cabal 1.0.12 - Convert stack projects to cabal.project + cabal.project.freeze https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stack2cabal-1.0.12 (maerwald)
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2020-10-23 22:53:35 +0200zaquest(~notzaques@5.128.210.178)
2020-10-23 22:53:50 +0200 <pomiiu> Hi everyone. Just found out about ghcup. Is this the new standard way to install GHC?
2020-10-23 22:53:54 +0200ibloom(sid350277@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dcwoytmmqgioqvdo)
2020-10-23 22:53:58 +0200taurux(~taurux@net-188-152-78-51.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
2020-10-23 22:54:01 +0200 <monsterchrom> Yes.
2020-10-23 22:54:04 +0200 <ghoulguy> pomiiu: yup
2020-10-23 22:54:13 +0200Amras(~Amras@unaffiliated/amras0000)
2020-10-23 22:55:02 +0200Lowl3v3l(~Lowl3v3l@dslb-002-203-195-108.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
2020-10-23 22:55:17 +0200 <pomiiu> There are lots of packages like indent that I think assume stack. Like hindent, which suggests "stack install hindent" to install. Is it just "cabal install hindent" then?
2020-10-23 22:55:41 +0200Neo--(~neo@188-230-154-134.dynamic.t-2.net)
2020-10-23 22:55:46 +0200 <maerwald> prefer: cabal install --install-method=copy --overwrite-policy=always
2020-10-23 22:55:54 +0200motherfsck(~motherfsc@unaffiliated/motherfsck)
2020-10-23 22:56:05 +0200 <maerwald> which is closer to what stack does too
2020-10-23 22:56:06 +0200 <monsterchrom> You should just try. Add "--dry-run" for a preview of what would be involved.
2020-10-23 22:56:07 +0200jbox(~atlas@unaffiliated/jbox) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-10-23 22:56:18 +0200 <pomiiu> Ah okay. Thanks.
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2020-10-23 23:29:24 +0200 <hc> is there a haskell implementation of youtube-dl? ;-)
2020-10-23 23:30:13 +0200 <texasmyn_> pomiiu: have you tried brittany?
2020-10-23 23:31:09 +0200texasmyn_texasmynsted[m]_
2020-10-23 23:31:12 +0200 <texasmynsted[m]_> oops
2020-10-23 23:31:18 +0200texasmynsted[m]_texasmynsted
2020-10-23 23:32:04 +0200 <texasmynsted> I have tried them all, https://github.com/lspitzner/brittany works very well and worth a look. I do not have enough scroll-back to know about your hindent needs.
2020-10-23 23:32:09 +0200notnatebtw(~nate@110.138.18.157)
2020-10-23 23:33:13 +0200 <yushyin> fourmolu/ormolu
2020-10-23 23:34:01 +0200 <texasmynsted> I guess I have _not_ tried them all. I have not tried ormolu, I think
2020-10-23 23:34:22 +0200 <texasmynsted> I mean fourmolu
2020-10-23 23:36:08 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 23:36:57 +0200 <texasmynsted> darn now I have to try another one. heh
2020-10-23 23:40:00 +0200jtobin(~jtobin@li1555-212.members.linode.com) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2020-10-23 23:40:20 +0200dbmikus(~dbmikus@cpe-76-167-86-219.natsow.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 23:40:41 +0200 <sm[m]> gotta collect them all!
2020-10-23 23:44:37 +0200 <pomiiu> Has anyone tried to build hindent recently? I get src/HIndent/Types.hs:78:27: error: • Could not deduce (MonadFail m) arising from a use of ‘fail’
2020-10-23 23:50:38 +0200crestfallen(~john@128.32.176.159)
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2020-10-23 23:52:39 +0200Tario(~Tario@200.119.186.205)
2020-10-23 23:52:43 +0200 <maerwald> that shouldn't be hard to fixe
2020-10-23 23:52:46 +0200 <crestfallen> hi please help me understand "creates the effect of both the original layers", here: IO(IO ()) 'join' can be thought of as combining the effects described by two m-layers, one nested inside the other. combining them into a single m-layer, creates the effects of both the original layers.
2020-10-23 23:53:17 +0200 <maerwald> :t join
2020-10-23 23:53:18 +0200 <lambdabot> Monad m => m (m a) -> m a
2020-10-23 23:53:19 +0200erolm_a(~erolm_a@62.18.213.68)
2020-10-23 23:53:23 +0200 <maerwald> @src join
2020-10-23 23:53:23 +0200 <lambdabot> join x = x >>= id
2020-10-23 23:53:34 +0200 <maerwald> :t (>>=)
2020-10-23 23:53:35 +0200 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
2020-10-23 23:53:38 +0200 <maerwald> @src (>>=)
2020-10-23 23:53:38 +0200 <lambdabot> Source not found. Do you think like you type?
2020-10-23 23:53:44 +0200 <maerwald> something like that
2020-10-23 23:53:47 +0200 <maerwald> follow the rabbit
2020-10-23 23:55:05 +0200dbmikus(~dbmikus@cpe-76-167-86-219.natsow.res.rr.com)
2020-10-23 23:57:19 +0200 <crestfallen> maerwald, thanks, but what does it mean to create the effects of both the original layers. IO() should not be read into, I'm assuming..
2020-10-23 23:57:49 +0200 <maerwald> I honestly ind that sentence confusing. Seems like someone tried to over-explain stuff
2020-10-23 23:57:49 +0200 <dminuoso> crestfallen: I frequently like to adopt the notion that `IO T` is a list of assembly instructions, that, if they were executed produced something of type `T`. So `IO (IO T)` is some assembly instructions, that, if they were executed, would give you another list of assembly instructions
2020-10-23 23:57:57 +0200 <dminuoso> And if those were executed, you'd get something of value T
2020-10-23 23:58:20 +0200 <dminuoso> Now, `join` is saying "give me a list of assembly instruction that does the first, and then the second"
2020-10-23 23:58:33 +0200 <dminuoso> Thereby "combining" these two
2020-10-23 23:59:01 +0200 <maerwald> If language is confusing you, throw it away and look at code
2020-10-23 23:59:41 +0200 <maerwald> > join (Just (Just 2))
2020-10-23 23:59:46 +0200 <lambdabot> Just 2