2020/10/23

2020-10-23 00:00:01 +0000valli1(~valli@139.28.218.148) ()
2020-10-23 00:01:05 +0000tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:01:28 +0000 <ski> Guest18 : use `replicateM_'. also remove the `return ()'s
2020-10-23 00:02:10 +0000 <Guest18> Yeah, I know the returns are redundant
2020-10-23 00:02:11 +0000 <ski> Guest18 : `percentage' has redundant brackets. (also `(Num a) =>' could be `Num a =>')
2020-10-23 00:02:23 +0000 <Guest18> why replicateM_?
2020-10-23 00:02:37 +0000 <ski> because you don't care about the list of results, anyway
2020-10-23 00:02:52 +0000N3RGY(~N3RGY@65.141.87.122) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:03:11 +0000 <ski> `replicateM n act' is when you want to get back a list of `n' results of executing `act'
2020-10-23 00:03:38 +0000 <ski> if you just want to do something `n' times, but don't care about collecting results in a list, it's better to use `replicateM_'
2020-10-23 00:04:11 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:04:20 +0000 <Guest18> doesn't the compiler optimize this stuff anyway? Or is it the more idiomatic way of doing things?
2020-10-23 00:04:23 +0000steve__(~quassel@ool-18b99d28.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:04:48 +0000steve_(~quassel@ool-18b99d28.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:04:48 +0000 <ski> also, you could use `n <- readIO input_line :: IO Int'. in case of a parsing error, this will abort immediately, rather than when `n' is later used
2020-10-23 00:04:55 +0000YellowOnion(~YellowOni@125-237-198-213-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz)
2020-10-23 00:05:22 +0000 <ski> also, you could replace that, and `input_line <- getLine', by `n <- readLn :: IO Int', which does both for you
2020-10-23 00:05:47 +0000ph88(~ph88@ip5f5af0cc.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 00:05:49 +0000 <ski> Guest18 : it probably doesn't optimize it away, i think
2020-10-23 00:06:07 +0000 <Guest18> num key sub = foldr (\(x,y) b -> if x == y then b+1 else b) 0 $ zip key sub -- what about this?
2020-10-23 00:07:19 +0000efertone(~efertone@138.68.79.27) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-23 00:07:31 +0000 <ski> (you could use `n :: Int <- readIO input_line' or `n :: Int <- readLn' instead, if you enable extension `ScopedTypeVariables'. this looks slightly more pretty. or you could just leave out the ascription, and let it infer that `n' is an `Int' (since it's passed to `replicateM_'))
2020-10-23 00:07:37 +0000 <ski> @type replicateM_
2020-10-23 00:07:39 +0000 <lambdabot> Applicative m => Int -> m a -> m ()
2020-10-23 00:07:40 +0000 <ski> @type replicateM
2020-10-23 00:07:41 +0000 <lambdabot> Applicative m => Int -> m a -> m [a]
2020-10-23 00:08:10 +0000efertone(~efertone@138.68.79.27)
2020-10-23 00:08:29 +0000 <ski> yea, next thing i was going to comment on was that your `num' in the paste only works if the two lists (`String's ..) have the same length
2020-10-23 00:08:47 +0000 <Guest18> it's guaranteed that they are
2020-10-23 00:09:01 +0000 <ski> ok
2020-10-23 00:09:23 +0000 <ski> well, there's many different ways to do it
2020-10-23 00:09:41 +0000 <Guest18> how would you do it?
2020-10-23 00:10:11 +0000 <ski> you could e.g. filter the `zip key sub' list, keeping only the pairs in which the two components are equal to each other. then count how many pairs you have left
2020-10-23 00:10:25 +0000 <ski> you could use a list comprehension, if you want to
2020-10-23 00:11:06 +0000 <ski> if you're going to use a fold, then probably foldl' is better, here, btw
2020-10-23 00:11:23 +0000 <simon> 单子 is monad in chinese.
2020-10-23 00:11:50 +0000 <ski> in Leibniz' sense, too ?
2020-10-23 00:12:17 +0000 <simon> I think so. the dictionary says "(functional programming or philosophy) monad" -- I don't know if that encompasses math.
2020-10-23 00:12:29 +0000elliott__(~elliott@pool-108-51-141-12.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2020-10-23 00:12:39 +0000 <ski> (personally i'd also not use `$' in there)
2020-10-23 00:12:40 +0000 <simon> I think only chinese mathematicians know. :)
2020-10-23 00:12:57 +0000 <Guest18> num key sub = length [(x,y) | (x,y) <- zip(key, sub), x == y] -- don't know if i wrote it correctly, but something like this maybe?>
2020-10-23 00:13:02 +0000 <ski> presumably it does, simon
2020-10-23 00:13:32 +0000 <ski> Guest18 : looks ok. although, instead of collecting `(x,y)' you could collect, say, `()'
2020-10-23 00:13:35 +0000 <simon> I wonder if right-associative function application in chinese is 'f ¥ x'
2020-10-23 00:13:46 +0000 <Guest18> ski: that makes sense
2020-10-23 00:13:51 +0000 <ski> (or you could collect `1's, and then `sum' .. many ways to "skin the cat")
2020-10-23 00:14:25 +0000 <ski> not in japanese, then ?
2020-10-23 00:14:50 +0000 <simon> surely :-D
2020-10-23 00:14:58 +0000 <ski> btw, it's `zip key sub', not `zip(key, sub)'
2020-10-23 00:15:18 +0000 <ski> also, you could use `zipWith (==) key sub', to get a list of `Bool'eans, directly
2020-10-23 00:18:21 +0000AceNovo(~chris@184.101.197.134)
2020-10-23 00:18:35 +0000 <ski> > [x + y | x <- [0,1,2,3] | y <- [40,50,60]] -- another extension
2020-10-23 00:18:37 +0000 <lambdabot> [40,51,62]
2020-10-23 00:22:10 +0000 <koz_> @hoogle asum
2020-10-23 00:22:10 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable asum :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
2020-10-23 00:22:10 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.Conduit.Combinators asum :: (Monad m, Alternative f) => ConduitT (f a) o m (f a)
2020-10-23 00:22:10 +0000 <lambdabot> Protolude asum :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
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2020-10-23 01:04:33 +0000ech(~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ech)
2020-10-23 01:05:42 +0000 <koz_> What's the place to look for how GADTs are represented at runtime?
2020-10-23 01:06:20 +0000 <NGravity> Can haskell draw 4dimensional data ? Because i wanna fix string theory and calculate the total mass of the universe 😜😂
2020-10-23 01:06:41 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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2020-10-23 01:08:47 +0000Lycurgus(~niemand@98.4.96.235) (Quit: Exeunt)
2020-10-23 01:09:37 +0000 <Kolkrabe> Yes, Haskell can do that
2020-10-23 01:09:42 +0000 <NGravity> We have 12 dimensions arrays , perhaps 15 x 14.5 billion light years dimensionals, so that is the data to extract at plank measurements👍🤣
2020-10-23 01:10:03 +0000 <NGravity> Yes yes! 😂😂😂
2020-10-23 01:11:02 +0000mrchampion(~mrchampio@216-211-57-41.dynamic.tbaytel.net)
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2020-10-23 01:12:31 +0000 <c_wraith> koz_: GADTs aren't different at runtime, unless you mean using them for existentials. In which case their runtime representation is the same as any other existential at runtime.
2020-10-23 01:12:46 +0000 <c_wraith> err. existential type classes
2020-10-23 01:13:01 +0000jedws(~jedws@101.184.148.229)
2020-10-23 01:13:28 +0000 <koz_> c_wraith: Suppose you have something like 'Foo (a :: Type) where Bar :: (SomeConstraint a) => a -> Foo a'. Would this look different to 'data Foo a = Foo a'?
2020-10-23 01:13:39 +0000 <koz_> s/= Foo/= Bar/ argh
2020-10-23 01:14:05 +0000ericsagnes(~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:d50b:1659:8849:617f)
2020-10-23 01:14:35 +0000 <c_wraith> I suppose that's technically not an existential, even though it's doing the same thing you'd normally do with existential type classes.
2020-10-23 01:15:16 +0000 <koz_> So would this end up looking like an existential at runtime, or not?
2020-10-23 01:15:25 +0000 <c_wraith> I mean, it'd be packaged the same way
2020-10-23 01:16:00 +0000taurux(~taurux@net-188-216-37-217.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
2020-10-23 01:16:03 +0000 <c_wraith> (SomeConstraint a) => a -> Foo a gets converted to SomeConstraintDict a -> a -> Foo a
2020-10-23 01:16:17 +0000 <koz_> Ah, so the dictionary gets carted around at runtime?
2020-10-23 01:16:21 +0000 <c_wraith> yes
2020-10-23 01:16:41 +0000 <c_wraith> Which is why it's exceptionally rare for it to be the correct design
2020-10-23 01:17:14 +0000 <koz_> OK, thanks. I thought as much, but I wanted to ask just in case.
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2020-10-23 01:27:55 +0000skiidly ponders the difference between `foo :: forall a. C a => F a -> G a' and `foo :: (exists a. C a *> F a) -> (exists a. C a *> G a)'
2020-10-23 01:28:38 +0000 <ski> (there's also `foo :: (forall a. C a => F a) -> (forall a. C a => G a)' ..)
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2020-10-23 01:31:24 +0000 <ski> (passing around a dictionary can be useful, sometimes. but it may possibly be more useful, if you bundle the dictionary of a typeclass instance for `a', not with a single value of type `a', but with some collection of `a'. that way, one can make use of operations which take two `a's. cf. "binary methods problem" in OO)
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2020-10-23 01:37:16 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-10-23 01:38:20 +0000 <jbox> today is my first day of Haskell! I decided to try out xmonad and I'm loving it
2020-10-23 01:39:09 +0000falafel(~falafel@71-34-132-121.clsp.qwest.net)
2020-10-23 01:39:26 +0000 <ghoulguy> hi jbox, neat that it's working out
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2020-10-23 01:44:10 +0000 <ski> jbox : feel free to ask, if you have any questions
2020-10-23 01:45:16 +0000 <jbox> ski: thank you ^-^
2020-10-23 01:45:43 +0000 <jbox> I've never written in a functional language before (aside from Nix and the "functional" aspects of Rust), so I'm learning a lot :D
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2020-10-23 02:20:48 +0000 <dsal> jbox: We have many more monads to choose from. :)
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2020-10-23 03:03:49 +0000 <jbox> is there a standard haskell repl?
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2020-10-23 03:10:05 +0000 <koz_> jbox: There's GHCi?
2020-10-23 03:11:02 +0000 <jbox> koz_: perfect, thank you!
2020-10-23 03:13:17 +0000 <Squarism> im wondering if you could somehow discriminate between two class instances by class constraint. Say we have "class MyClz a" and "instance MyClz a" and "instance Show a => MyClz a" . If i try to compile that i get "Duplciate instance declaration"
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2020-10-23 03:15:53 +0000 <koz_> Squarism: You can use a newtype wrapper like 'instance Show a => MyClz (ViaShow a)'.
2020-10-23 03:16:19 +0000 <koz_> Because in your current situation, 'instance MyClz a' already covers everything, whether it has a Show instance or not.
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2020-10-23 03:20:19 +0000 <Squarism> koz_, thanks. I think Im fooling myself to think I can use classes to pattern match, but lets see where this is going
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2020-10-23 03:55:21 +0000 <jbox> should I use my distribution package manager (pacman/yay on Arch Linux) to install the Haskell toolchain or should I use ghcup?
2020-10-23 03:56:06 +0000 <koz_> jbox: ghcup.
2020-10-23 03:56:13 +0000 <koz_> This applies _doubly_ on Arch.
2020-10-23 03:57:27 +0000 <jbox> koz_: okay, thanks!
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2020-10-23 04:01:57 +0000 <dsal> jbox: You got any particular plans?
2020-10-23 04:04:35 +0000 <jbox> dsal: I'm just configuring xmonad right now. I'm trying to get vim integration working
2020-10-23 04:05:29 +0000 <dsal> Ah. I never got very far configuring xmonad. Day 1: Get a nice interface I like. I write lots of software I use, though.
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2020-10-23 04:38:28 +0000hackagepandoc 2.11.0.3 - Conversion between markup formats https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pandoc-2.11.0.3 (JohnMacFarlane)
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2020-10-23 04:43:27 +0000hackageciteproc 0.1.0.3 - Generates citations and bibliography from CSL styles. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/citeproc-0.1.0.3 (JohnMacFarlane)
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2020-10-23 05:11:28 +0000hackageskylighting-core 0.10.0.3 - syntax highlighting library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/skylighting-core-0.10.0.3 (JohnMacFarlane)
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2020-10-23 05:12:28 +0000hackageskylighting 0.10.0.3 - syntax highlighting library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/skylighting-0.10.0.3 (JohnMacFarlane)
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2020-10-23 06:04:58 +0000hackagegopro-plus 0.4.0.0 - GoPro Plus Client API. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gopro-plus-0.4.0.0 (dustin)
2020-10-23 06:05:17 +0000 <jophish> Does cabal have a command to get the path to an executable?
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2020-10-23 06:05:26 +0000 <jophish> i.e. the thing called by cabal run
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2020-10-23 06:49:47 +0000tomsmedingthinks there is not, but would very much like to be proven wrong
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2020-10-23 06:50:57 +0000 <tomsmeding> (a hacky way to get it manually for a single case is to run 'cabal build', and look at the last Linking step)
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2020-10-23 07:25:57 +0000hackagehaxl 2.3.0.0 - A Haskell library for efficient, concurrent,and concise data access. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haxl-2.3.0.0 (SimonMarlow)
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2020-10-23 08:40:28 +0000 <dminuoso> jophish: Yes, it does In 3.4.
2020-10-23 08:40:36 +0000 <dminuoso> It's --list-bin
2020-10-23 08:40:39 +0000 <dminuoso> Until then you have two options
2020-10-23 08:40:41 +0000 <jophish> thanks!
2020-10-23 08:40:56 +0000 <dminuoso> 1) Under Linux you can do `cabal exec -- which packageName`
2020-10-23 08:41:06 +0000 <dminuoso> 2) For windows compatibility you can use `cabal-plan`
2020-10-23 08:41:19 +0000 <dminuoso> (Because 3.4 is fully released yet)
2020-10-23 08:41:33 +0000 <jophish> ah of course, this is nicest I think: cabal exec -- which packageName
2020-10-23 08:41:44 +0000 <dminuoso> jophish: If you want to use this inside the CI, make sure to pass -v0
2020-10-23 08:41:50 +0000 <dminuoso> So cabal doesn't output other stuff
2020-10-23 08:42:01 +0000 <jophish> wouldn't other stuff be on stderr?
2020-10-23 08:42:06 +0000 <jophish> or shouldn't perhaps
2020-10-23 08:42:21 +0000 <dminuoso> In experience you want -v0
2020-10-23 08:42:56 +0000 <dminuoso> cabal outputs a lot of stuff on stdout, but even when you `build` first, our CI was broken a few times mysteriously because cabal output other stuff
2020-10-23 08:42:57 +0000 <jophish> right, thanks
2020-10-23 08:43:14 +0000 <jophish> yeah, I've always found that a little weird
2020-10-23 08:43:36 +0000 <dminuoso> Might just be an issue due to the way we run our CI. At any rate, specifying -v0 is good.
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2020-10-23 08:58:41 +0000 <merijn> 3.4 is blocked on GHC 9.0 release
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2020-10-23 09:18:14 +0000 <maerwald> @hoogle delete
2020-10-23 09:18:14 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.List delete :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [a]
2020-10-23 09:18:14 +0000 <lambdabot> GHC.OldList delete :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [a]
2020-10-23 09:18:14 +0000 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap.Internal delete :: Key -> IntMap a -> IntMap a
2020-10-23 09:18:19 +0000stefan-__(~cri@42dots.de)
2020-10-23 09:18:46 +0000 <maerwald> > delete 1 [1..]
2020-10-23 09:18:48 +0000 <lambdabot> [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29...
2020-10-23 09:20:07 +0000scratchy_beard(~doug@cpc110383-king13-2-0-cust408.19-1.cable.virginm.net)
2020-10-23 09:20:37 +0000erolm_a(~erolm_a@62.18.212.252) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-10-23 09:20:39 +0000evade(~evade@2001:b07:a15:ec0c:91a9:d55f:dffd:96e)
2020-10-23 09:20:40 +0000heatsink(~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-10-23 09:20:54 +0000erolm_a(~erolm_a@62.18.212.252)
2020-10-23 09:20:56 +0000 <int-e> > delete 1 [1,1,1]
2020-10-23 09:20:58 +0000 <lambdabot> [1,1]
2020-10-23 09:21:09 +0000 <maerwald> hmm
2020-10-23 09:21:20 +0000 <maerwald> so it's actually `deleteFirst`
2020-10-23 09:21:24 +0000 <hc> > length (delete 1 [1..])
2020-10-23 09:21:30 +0000 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
2020-10-23 09:21:33 +0000 <int-e> maerwald: yeah, which may be surprising.
2020-10-23 09:21:47 +0000 <maerwald> Such typesafety :p
2020-10-23 09:21:54 +0000 <ski> > [0,0,0] \\ [0,0]
2020-10-23 09:21:56 +0000 <lambdabot> [0]
2020-10-23 09:22:03 +0000 <dminuoso> uhh
2020-10-23 09:22:05 +0000 <maerwald> that's gross
2020-10-23 09:22:10 +0000 <dminuoso> ouch
2020-10-23 09:22:18 +0000 <int-e> multisets
2020-10-23 09:22:31 +0000 <dminuoso> Principle of maximum surprise
2020-10-23 09:22:54 +0000 <dminuoso> Can't we offload all these things to Data.Surprise.Surprise and out of Prelude?
2020-10-23 09:22:59 +0000 <int-e> it is what it is
2020-10-23 09:23:01 +0000 <int-e> no!
2020-10-23 09:23:04 +0000AlterEgo-(~ladew@124-198-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl)
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2020-10-23 09:23:12 +0000 <int-e> without warts, what would we complain about?
2020-10-23 09:23:21 +0000 <dminuoso> Dunno. Other languages?
2020-10-23 09:23:22 +0000 <int-e> what little curiosities would we discuss?
2020-10-23 09:23:26 +0000 <int-e> it would be BORING
2020-10-23 09:23:28 +0000magma(~magma@2001:b07:a15:ec0c:91a9:d55f:dffd:96e)
2020-10-23 09:24:03 +0000 <int-e> next you'll be taking away NaNs and signed zeros from IEEE floating point numbers
2020-10-23 09:24:40 +0000 <dminuoso> These are not a problem, but I do want IEEE conform traps
2020-10-23 09:24:41 +0000 <ski> or `n+k'
2020-10-23 09:24:41 +0000 <int-e> (was that too much?)
2020-10-23 09:24:46 +0000heatsink(~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-10-23 09:25:10 +0000 <int-e> ski: I don't miss n+k patterns, somehow.
2020-10-23 09:25:24 +0000babygnu(~robert@gateway/tor-sasl/babygnu)
2020-10-23 09:25:29 +0000 <merijn> int-e: Abolish value NaN, join us in trapping NaN paradise!
2020-10-23 09:25:47 +0000 <int-e> > error "it's a trap!"
2020-10-23 09:25:49 +0000 <lambdabot> *Exception: it's a trap!
2020-10-23 09:25:49 +0000stefan-__(~cri@42dots.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-23 09:25:59 +0000 <merijn> int-e: Basically, yes :p
2020-10-23 09:26:10 +0000stefan-__(~cri@42dots.de)
2020-10-23 09:26:12 +0000 <merijn> int-e: It's even IEEE-754 compliant!
2020-10-23 09:26:20 +0000 <int-e> merijn: I just wonder how much code that would/will break.
2020-10-23 09:26:27 +0000 <dminuoso> int-e: Dunno, I have luxury problems rather
2020-10-23 09:26:29 +0000 <dminuoso> % type f <> g = Either f g
2020-10-23 09:26:29 +0000 <yahb> dminuoso:
2020-10-23 09:26:31 +0000 <dminuoso> I dont want that to work.
2020-10-23 09:26:45 +0000 <merijn> I'm torn on type operators
2020-10-23 09:26:52 +0000 <merijn> On the one hand "ugh"
2020-10-23 09:26:57 +0000 <dminuoso> Type operators are fine, but they should demand a colon!
2020-10-23 09:27:03 +0000 <merijn> On the other hands, prefixing everything with : is also "ugh"
2020-10-23 09:27:06 +0000 <dminuoso> I think it used to be that way in 6.x or 7.x
2020-10-23 09:27:19 +0000 <merijn> Up until mid 7.x, I think
2020-10-23 09:27:35 +0000 <dminuoso> Right. There's so many places where quantifying over an operator makes so much more sense
2020-10-23 09:27:41 +0000 <merijn> Personally I'm offended much more by TypeInType and refuse to acknowledge it's existence
2020-10-23 09:27:41 +0000 <dminuoso> All the profunctor stuff for example
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2020-10-23 09:28:39 +0000 <int-e> (~>) is the perfect type variable for categories and arrows...
2020-10-23 09:29:05 +0000karanlikmadde(~karanlikm@2a01:c23:6063:4800:143d:31e:a773:8400)
2020-10-23 09:29:25 +0000 <dminuoso> I mean if you look at Servant, it's not even annoying to have colon prefixes for type operators.
2020-10-23 09:29:37 +0000 <int-e> It
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2020-10-23 09:29:59 +0000 <int-e> It's ugly for commutative things... But then again we can have :*: and :+:...
2020-10-23 09:30:07 +0000magma(~magma@2001:b07:a15:ec0c:91a9:d55f:dffd:96e)
2020-10-23 09:30:14 +0000DavidEichmann(~david@43.240.198.146.dyn.plus.net)
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2020-10-23 09:30:30 +0000 <int-e> (modulo isomorphisms)
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2020-10-23 09:31:03 +0000 <dminuoso> Overally, I think we'd pull more value from type operator variables than that
2020-10-23 09:31:29 +0000 <dminuoso> It's a little bit of visual noise vs effectively moving things that make more sense as infix into prefix position
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2020-10-23 10:18:40 +0000 <tomsmeding> quick development ^
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2020-10-23 10:21:23 +0000 <dminuoso> Modern development! Release early and release unfinished.
2020-10-23 10:21:25 +0000nefercheprure(tma@twin.jikos.cz)
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2020-10-23 10:21:50 +0000 <dminuoso> otoh, I have half a dozen packages awaiting release, but I've never found the time to finis them. :(
2020-10-23 10:22:00 +0000 <dminuoso> Can't seem to find the middleground here
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2020-10-23 10:57:59 +0000 <maerwald> There's actual research backing up the "release early, release often" mantra. But my impression is that it doesn't normalise for context: most of the time ppl have no idea what they are doing. Then quick feedback is all you got, lol
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2020-10-23 11:11:27 +0000hackagedropbox 0.0.4 - Dropbox API client https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dropbox-0.0.4 (Jappie)
2020-10-23 11:11:31 +0000 <[exa]> maerwald: people make the best tests
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2020-10-23 11:18:28 +0000hackageaws-lambda-haskell-runtime 3.0.5 - Haskell runtime for AWS Lambda https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aws-lambda-haskell-runtime-3.0.5 (NickSeagull)
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2020-10-23 11:28:12 +0000 <merijn> There's some people uploading stuff to hackage that doesn't even compile
2020-10-23 11:28:15 +0000xerox_(~xerox@unaffiliated/xerox)
2020-10-23 11:28:29 +0000shatriff(~vitaliish@176.52.219.10)
2020-10-23 11:28:40 +0000 <merijn> I'm not even talking "dependency bounds are wrong", I mean "straight up syntax error"
2020-10-23 11:28:59 +0000 <merijn> I wish people would do the bare minimum testing at least, before cluttering shared resources
2020-10-23 11:29:33 +0000 <merijn> The repo doesn't even exist
2020-10-23 11:30:15 +0000 <merijn> oh, that was a typo in the cabal file
2020-10-23 11:30:28 +0000 <merijn> I'm going to bet this person isn't aware of release candidates >.>
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2020-10-23 11:31:41 +0000 <hc> merijn: yeah, it is a bit difficult to acclimate to... indeed, the release canditate feature is not-100%-obvious
2020-10-23 11:31:49 +0000 <int-e> Hmm, maybe they're using a non-cabal build tool by default :/
2020-10-23 11:32:12 +0000 <merijn> hc: candidate is the default, though?
2020-10-23 11:32:15 +0000 <hc> then again, adding some checks to reject stuff that doesn't copmile sounds doable
2020-10-23 11:32:23 +0000 <merijn> hc: Not really
2020-10-23 11:32:27 +0000 <hc> merijn: is it? I always explicitly search for it
2020-10-23 11:32:40 +0000 <merijn> hc: Because then anything depending on native libraries that are not on the builders fails
2020-10-23 11:32:48 +0000 <merijn> hc: How are you uploading, then?
2020-10-23 11:32:48 +0000 <hc> merijn: oh, true.
2020-10-23 11:32:51 +0000 <hc> s/compile/type check maybe?
2020-10-23 11:33:04 +0000 <int-e> you can't even check whether there's a build plan, because of C dependencies and possible platform-specific packages
2020-10-23 11:33:28 +0000 <int-e> (not easily at least)
2020-10-23 11:33:48 +0000 <merijn> hc: The hackage upload page (from clicking the link) has them at the bottom (this should perhaps be at the top, before the upload link/button)
2020-10-23 11:33:51 +0000dbmikus(~dbmikus@cpe-76-167-86-219.natsow.res.rr.com)
2020-10-23 11:33:53 +0000 <hc> you could require manual review by maintainers for packages that don't compile on "stardard hardware" then?
2020-10-23 11:33:57 +0000 <merijn> hc: https://hackage.haskell.org/upload
2020-10-23 11:34:20 +0000 <int-e> there is an upload page?
2020-10-23 11:34:23 +0000 <merijn> hc: And "cabal upload" requires you to add --publish to upload a non-candidate version
2020-10-23 11:34:28 +0000 <merijn> int-e: Yes :p
2020-10-23 11:34:35 +0000 <int-e> fancy
2020-10-23 11:34:51 +0000 <hc> int-e: yes, it's actually a very open infrastructure imho
2020-10-23 11:34:56 +0000 <merijn> Although I just use "cabal upload", since it's integrated with my password manager
2020-10-23 11:34:57 +0000 <hc> very low entry bar to contributing
2020-10-23 11:35:51 +0000 <int-e> hc: I never went looking for an upload page... I always just used `cabal upload`.
2020-10-23 11:36:03 +0000 <hc> ah ok, I see
2020-10-23 11:36:20 +0000 <hc> I always used cabal sdist, then find to find the tarball and then uploaded it via the file upload feature
2020-10-23 11:36:27 +0000 <hc> much later did I learn there is an upload command
2020-10-23 11:36:33 +0000 <int-e> It's just so easy to miss things that you're not looking for.
2020-10-23 11:36:42 +0000 <hc> true that!
2020-10-23 11:37:26 +0000 <hc> I tend to judge things these days by how easy/hard they make it for me to learn how to do what I am trying to do. (unless, of course, they require me to learn novel new concepts I haven't heard of before and that actually teach me something:)
2020-10-23 11:37:47 +0000 <hc> so by this standard, for example, I like hetzner cloud a lot and AWS not so much...
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2020-10-23 11:54:43 +0000 <[exa]> ...there's no testing/review in hackage at all?
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2020-10-23 11:57:23 +0000 <infinity0> i have some 3rd-party code that operates lazily on the front of a String, and some other 3rd-party code that operates lazily on the front of a lazy ByteString
2020-10-23 11:57:48 +0000 <infinity0> to interoperate the two, i'm keeping my data as a lazy ByteString, but then converting it to a String using LBS.pack/unpack
2020-10-23 11:58:04 +0000 <merijn> [exa]: No
2020-10-23 11:58:21 +0000 <merijn> [exa]: Who did you imagine would do that?
2020-10-23 11:58:29 +0000 <infinity0> however if i do this many many times, i will build up a deep thunk of pack (.. unpack ( .. pack ( ... unpack ) ... etc, is there any way around this?
2020-10-23 11:58:46 +0000 <merijn> infinity0: Stop...please...you're going to make me cry
2020-10-23 11:59:00 +0000 <infinity0> so is the answer "no"?
2020-10-23 11:59:12 +0000 <merijn> The only way that pack/unpack you're using would work is if you are using Char8
2020-10-23 11:59:22 +0000 <merijn> And if so, I'm going to have to send my hit squad after you
2020-10-23 11:59:31 +0000 <infinity0> i'm using Char8, that's beside the point of my question though
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2020-10-23 12:00:01 +0000matp(~matp@178.162.204.214) ()
2020-10-23 12:02:07 +0000 <merijn> I disagree :) Doing that conversion once is evil enough that I'm quoted for hating on it (https://github.com/quchen/articles/blob/master/fbut.md#bytestringchar8-is-bad). Doing it repeatedly is *terribly* broken
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2020-10-23 12:03:14 +0000cristi_(~cristi@86.121.125.90)
2020-10-23 12:03:22 +0000 <hc> merijn: lol on that quote
2020-10-23 12:03:37 +0000 <merijn> Ideally one (or both) of those 3rd party libraries exposes another way of interacting with it, but that's hard to say without knowing which libraries
2020-10-23 12:03:40 +0000 <merijn> hc: #facts
2020-10-23 12:04:13 +0000thblt(~thblt@unaffiliated/thblt) ("ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)")
2020-10-23 12:04:17 +0000 <infinity0> merijn: that problem doesn't apply to my use case, i'm only interested in the issue mentioned in my question
2020-10-23 12:04:29 +0000 <arahael> Meh, char8 probably still makes sense in some situations, such as where you have mixed-encoded strings.
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2020-10-23 12:05:10 +0000 <merijn> arahael: No, because then you just have a binary blob and should be operating on ByteString only
2020-10-23 12:05:23 +0000 <infinity0> the issue is about interoperating between two pieces of code that expect those two different types, yet it would seem the pack/unpack conversion would become more inefficient the more you interleave the operations, which is a shame
2020-10-23 12:05:28 +0000coot(~coot@37.30.51.94.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
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2020-10-23 12:07:20 +0000 <arahael> merijn: I really shouldn't engage #haskell when my glenfiddich is running out. ;) But I'll persist! What if you were dealing with an sqlite blob of unspecified encoding?
2020-10-23 12:08:07 +0000 <merijn> infinity0: It's not about "more inefficient", but about "is this fundamentally broken?". Either one (or both) of those libraries are exposing the wrong type in their API (in which hopefully there's a right one too) *or* what you're doing is just broken and can't work correctly. I dunno which of those is true. But I don't know the answer to "how can I make the broken thing faster"
2020-10-23 12:08:12 +0000urodna(~urodna@unaffiliated/urodna)
2020-10-23 12:08:19 +0000 <merijn> arahael: ByteString
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2020-10-23 12:08:37 +0000 <arahael> merijn: Oh, hang on - char8 isn't actually 8-bit clean is it?
2020-10-23 12:08:42 +0000 <merijn> arahael: No
2020-10-23 12:08:53 +0000 <arahael> merijn: Well, then that dies right there.
2020-10-23 12:08:53 +0000 <merijn> arahael: It's just "lol, let's just drop all non-ascii input"
2020-10-23 12:09:06 +0000 <arahael> Yeah, I just realised why it's so bad, again.
2020-10-23 12:09:18 +0000Chi1thangoo(~Chi1thang@87.112.60.168) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-10-23 12:09:22 +0000 <infinity0> merijn: "this is fundamentally broken" is a subjective judgement, i don't have the time to go into that type of philosophical debate
2020-10-23 12:09:23 +0000 <hc> maybe move it to the ByteString.Yolo subpackage to make this more clear?
2020-10-23 12:09:41 +0000 <merijn> hc: I have campaigned for it's removal multiple times
2020-10-23 12:10:04 +0000 <infinity0> the fact that you had to write a blog post about it means that "for all real-world situations, it results in incorrect behaviour" is not true, i would really just like to focus on my repeated unpack/pack question in terms of efficiency
2020-10-23 12:10:15 +0000coot(~coot@37.30.51.94.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
2020-10-23 12:10:42 +0000 <infinity0> you can think about it in terms of some unspecified types A and B if it makes you more comfortable..
2020-10-23 12:10:42 +0000 <merijn> infinity0: That problem is unsolvable
2020-10-23 12:10:43 +0000Yangster(c053e4f4@192.83.228.244)
2020-10-23 12:10:50 +0000 <hc> infinity0: when you ask a hacker a simple question, you might get a long and possible philospophical answer ;p
2020-10-23 12:10:56 +0000 <infinity0> fair enough...
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2020-10-23 12:11:04 +0000 <merijn> "I'm repeatedly computing the same thing, how do I make it fast?" 'well...stop doing that'
2020-10-23 12:11:09 +0000ggole(~ggole@2001:8003:8119:7200:553e:28c1:9eff:faae)
2020-10-23 12:11:23 +0000 <merijn> If you're encoding the same string, just, like, save the result and reuse it?
2020-10-23 12:11:49 +0000 <merijn> And if you're *not* encoding the same string, then I fail to see how you could convert it faster than "converting it"
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2020-10-23 12:14:07 +0000 <infinity0> i'm repeatedly decoding a stream, that's the thing, and it could either be A or B
2020-10-23 12:14:14 +0000 <arahael> merijn: When someone wants to "focus" on doing something efficiently, they don't always mean in computer time, even if they say that. ;)
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2020-10-23 12:16:01 +0000 <merijn> infinity0: Incidentally, replacing Char8.unpack with "T.unpack . decodeUtf8With lenientDecode" will give you the exact same type with a *much* more robust and *much* less bug-prone behaviour
2020-10-23 12:16:13 +0000 <infinity0> it's reasonable that a decoding API gives me (leftovers, result), but the two different APIs have different types for "leftovers"
2020-10-23 12:16:14 +0000hekkaidekapus(~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus)
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2020-10-23 12:16:42 +0000 <infinity0> merijn: thanks, yes i thought something like that must be possible, unfortunately it still would be inefficient due to the thunk build-up as if i understand right
2020-10-23 12:16:59 +0000 <merijn> (since it will 1. work correctly for any UTF-8 unicode, 2. gracefully handle errors if it's *not* UTF-8. As opposed to Char8 which will just silently corrupt your data)
2020-10-23 12:17:18 +0000 <merijn> infinity0: Any conversion to String is *always* going to be inefficient
2020-10-23 12:17:27 +0000 <merijn> Given that string easily takes up ~24 byte per character
2020-10-23 12:17:32 +0000 <merijn> and ruins your cache
2020-10-23 12:18:17 +0000 <[exa]> merijn: like, the users at least... :D
2020-10-23 12:18:33 +0000 <infinity0> well laziness could help with that, if only pack was "smart" enough to recognise an "unpack (...)" thunk and actually destructure it instead of building on top of it
2020-10-23 12:18:56 +0000 <merijn> [exa]: Well, there's the expectation that users do, but it doesn't hold as you see
2020-10-23 12:19:00 +0000 <arahael> infinity0: You mean fusion? :)
2020-10-23 12:19:03 +0000 <merijn> infinity0: That's not possible with ByteString
2020-10-23 12:19:18 +0000 <[exa]> merijn: moderation/banhammer is not available?
2020-10-23 12:19:28 +0000 <merijn> infinity0: To create a ByteString it *must* be copied in full
2020-10-23 12:19:40 +0000 <infinity0> sorry, i am talking about Lazy.ByteString here
2020-10-23 12:19:44 +0000 <merijn> [exa]: In theory, sure, in practice there's no process
2020-10-23 12:19:57 +0000 <merijn> infinity0: Lazy ByteString is just [Strict.ByteString]
2020-10-23 12:20:34 +0000 <[exa]> well then it's marvelous that the hackage is in such a good state
2020-10-23 12:20:39 +0000 <merijn> The chunk size depending on how/what creates the lazy list
2020-10-23 12:20:49 +0000 <infinity0> right, you only need to copy the first part of it, when creating one lazily
2020-10-23 12:21:23 +0000 <infinity0> arahael: that only happens at build-time not run-time conditionally AIUI. i'm pretty sure what i mentioned is impossible with today's haskell but i thought perhaps there might be some other strartegy i didn't know about
2020-10-23 12:21:41 +0000Sarma(~Amras@unaffiliated/amras0000)
2020-10-23 12:22:15 +0000 <arahael> infinity0: When I deal with haskell, I rarely try to think about compiletime vs runtime. I just accept that all the types are resolved at compile time.
2020-10-23 12:22:51 +0000heatsink(~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-10-23 12:23:20 +0000 <infinity0> well, i also care about runtime performance
2020-10-23 12:23:40 +0000nbloomf(~nbloomf@2600:1700:ad14:3020:6d96:aec8:3874:14ea)
2020-10-23 12:24:23 +0000 <merijn> infinity0: Which 2 libraries are this?
2020-10-23 12:24:42 +0000 <infinity0> Serialise vs Read
2020-10-23 12:24:48 +0000 <merijn> oof
2020-10-23 12:24:55 +0000 <merijn> As in the Read typeclass?
2020-10-23 12:25:01 +0000 <infinity0> yeah
2020-10-23 12:25:05 +0000 <merijn> And you care about performance?
2020-10-23 12:25:20 +0000 <merijn> Because Read's performance is notoriously *god awful*
2020-10-23 12:25:30 +0000 <merijn> Just, like, incredibly bad
2020-10-23 12:25:55 +0000 <infinity0> right, for interactive user session is fine, but having it degrade on a O(n^2) basis sounds bad even for an interactive user session
2020-10-23 12:25:58 +0000 <merijn> What are you trying to read?
2020-10-23 12:27:21 +0000 <infinity0> a stream of a bunch of objects, that could either be Serialise or Read
2020-10-23 12:27:28 +0000brisbin(~patrick@pool-173-49-158-4.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
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2020-10-23 12:28:07 +0000 <arahael> When I had to do a Read thing, I made my own read typeclass.
2020-10-23 12:28:34 +0000 <merijn> infinity0: And you don't control what creates this input (i.e. there's no way to replace Read with something else?)
2020-10-23 12:29:00 +0000 <infinity0> i could replace Read with perhaps JSON, that is another option i guess. mostly Read is convenient to derive and carries no dependencies
2020-10-23 12:29:41 +0000 <merijn> If you use Serialise already anyway, why not just derive Serialise?
2020-10-23 12:29:46 +0000 <infinity0> the underlying question regarding "runtime fusion" was interesting though
2020-10-23 12:30:12 +0000 <infinity0> i am already deriving Serialise. the idea is to have a fast+binary option but also a easy-friendly-manual option
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2020-10-23 13:23:43 +0000 <dminuoso> maerwald: Is there a way to select a version with ghcup without changing the default?
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2020-10-23 13:24:01 +0000 <maerwald> dminuoso: what do you mean exactly?
2020-10-23 13:24:12 +0000 <dminuoso> So we have a CI node with multiple GHC versions installed
2020-10-23 13:24:21 +0000 <maerwald> cabal build -w ghc-8.8.4?
2020-10-23 13:24:49 +0000 <dminuoso> maerwald: Cunning.
2020-10-23 13:25:01 +0000 <merijn> That's my local setup too :p
2020-10-23 13:25:01 +0000 <dminuoso> Can ghcup give me the path?
2020-10-23 13:25:08 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-10-23 13:25:14 +0000 <maerwald> dminuoso: what path?
2020-10-23 13:25:14 +0000 <merijn> I just have all ghc's in my path (latest first)
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2020-10-23 13:25:24 +0000 <dminuoso> merijn: The path to an installed ghc
2020-10-23 13:25:29 +0000 <merijn> So "ghc" defaults to the latest and specific version go to those
2020-10-23 13:25:30 +0000 <maerwald> dminuoso: ghcup paths are predictable
2020-10-23 13:25:41 +0000 <maerwald> ~/.ghcup/ghc/8.8.4/bin/ghc or something
2020-10-23 13:26:06 +0000 <dminuoso> maerwald: Well it'd still feel better if there was a sort of `--list-ghc` command, such I could say `cabal build -w $(ghcup --list-bin ghc-8.6.5)` or some such
2020-10-23 13:26:27 +0000 <dminuoso> Rather than encoding internals of ghcup into CI job descriptions
2020-10-23 13:26:28 +0000 <maerwald> You don't trust your PATH?
2020-10-23 13:26:45 +0000 <dminuoso> maerwald: Again, I have multiple concurrent GHC versions installed
2020-10-23 13:27:04 +0000AlterEgo__(~ladew@124-198-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2020-10-23 13:27:07 +0000jud^(~jud@cpe-70-113-106-222.austin.res.rr.com)
2020-10-23 13:27:10 +0000 <maerwald> cabal build -w ~/.ghcup/bin/ghc-8.8.4
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2020-10-23 13:28:38 +0000 <dminuoso> I still feel like ghc should offer plumbing commands.
2020-10-23 13:28:40 +0000 <dminuoso> *ghcup
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2020-10-23 13:28:59 +0000 <merijn> lifehack: https://github.com/merijn/dotfiles/blob/master/dotfiles/bash_env#L24-L28 ;)
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2020-10-23 13:28:59 +0000 <merijn> Needs some tweaking to match ghcup's paths, though
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2020-10-23 13:29:19 +0000 <merijn> dminuoso: So, if you have them all in your path then "ghc-8.8.4" will "just work"
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2020-10-23 13:29:36 +0000 <maerwald> I don't really understand the problem here
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2020-10-23 13:31:19 +0000 <dminuoso> merijn: Ah, indeed they are!
2020-10-23 13:31:36 +0000 <dminuoso> That's nice and works well
2020-10-23 13:31:42 +0000Cathy(~Cathy@unaffiliated/cathy)
2020-10-23 13:31:54 +0000 <dminuoso> Has the added advantage that the CI doesnt make assumptions about ghcup being installed
2020-10-23 13:31:54 +0000 <merijn> dminuoso: Then the trick is just to have the right "default" GHC first so that "ghc" pick the right one (which might not be important for CI)
2020-10-23 13:32:01 +0000 <dminuoso> It just demands a particular GHC version to be in path
2020-10-23 13:32:03 +0000 <dminuoso> :)
2020-10-23 13:32:15 +0000 <dminuoso> merijn: in case of ghcup, ghc itself is a symlink managed by ghcup
2020-10-23 13:32:17 +0000 <dminuoso> I didnt know that
2020-10-23 13:32:21 +0000 <dminuoso> I thought ghcup did PATH manipulation
2020-10-23 13:32:42 +0000 <dminuoso> Cheers this is good
2020-10-23 13:33:25 +0000 <maerwald> dminuoso: no, you have to modify PATH yourself, that's why we get mac users every day asking here how to do that
2020-10-23 13:33:34 +0000 <dminuoso> heh
2020-10-23 13:33:36 +0000 <dminuoso> fair enough
2020-10-23 13:33:43 +0000 <dminuoso> well, at any rate. merijn's suggested answer is good :)
2020-10-23 13:34:28 +0000 <maerwald> if you don't want to expose the symlinks, you can just export ~/.ghcup/ghc/<ver>/bin
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2020-10-23 14:38:57 +0000 <carter> merijn: you’re off #numerical-haskell just when it’s picking up again ;)
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2020-10-23 15:30:28 +0000hackagemu-avro 0.4.0.1 - Avro serialization support for Mu microservices https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mu-avro-0.4.0.1 (AlejandroSerrano)
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2020-10-23 15:46:03 +0000 <ulidtko> does stack allow to pick only the lib component (and ignore/skip the exe:'s) of a package from extra-deps ?
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2020-10-23 15:48:33 +0000 <ulidtko> i see that stack allows passing flags to extra-deps... but this package has no flag to disable the exe: component
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2020-10-23 15:52:39 +0000 <ulidtko> fork it you say? well maybe, vendoring this one will certainly work, but I don't know how many more deps will need vendoring like that
2020-10-23 15:53:37 +0000MarcelineVQ(~anja@198.254.202.72) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-10-23 15:53:39 +0000 <lep-delete> i feel like this is impossible but let's say i have a function `f :: (Read a) => String -> [a] -> [a]; f v xs = read v : xs` is it possible to supply @a at runtime? like from a typerep or smth?
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2020-10-23 15:54:06 +0000 <merijn> lep-delete: Well, tht sounds like a scary terrible idea :)
2020-10-23 15:54:25 +0000 <lep-delete> eh, maybe, mostly lazy
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2020-10-23 15:55:11 +0000 <lep-delete> (i could go into my specific use-case but i *think* the above should give the general idea)
2020-10-23 15:56:03 +0000 <ulidtko> lep-delete, the question is, why don't you know the specific `a` at `f` call site
2020-10-23 15:56:33 +0000 <ulidtko> and where the "runtime" choice of `a` comes from
2020-10-23 15:56:36 +0000 <merijn> A better question would be "are you really sure you wanna use Read?" :p
2020-10-23 15:56:37 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-10-23 15:56:44 +0000 <ulidtko> that, too
2020-10-23 15:56:46 +0000 <lep-delete> no, but Read is the closest
2020-10-23 15:56:52 +0000 <lep-delete> i would use some binary serialisation
2020-10-23 15:56:59 +0000 <lep-delete> let me get into my use-case
2020-10-23 15:57:20 +0000sfvm(~sfvm@37.228.215.148)
2020-10-23 15:58:58 +0000 <lep-delete> i have a data type with more structure than a list but let's use a list for now. i want a program where i can supply a string v, then read a list xs::[a] from a file and have read v:xs written back to that file. now i want to be able to use that program for [Int], [Real], [Maybe Int], you get it w/o recompiling it for every new file
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2020-10-23 15:59:47 +0000 <hyperisco> so I have strings and I want a reasonably unique hash for each string… what is my simplest path? cryponite looks possible but complicated
2020-10-23 16:00:10 +0000 <monsterchrom> How do I tell your program "I want [Int]"?
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2020-10-23 16:00:31 +0000 <monsterchrom> What is the exact syntax, for starters? (Next will be "what is the semantics of that syntax?")
2020-10-23 16:00:33 +0000 <lep-delete> either i provide it or read it from a file
2020-10-23 16:00:38 +0000 <hyperisco> like, md5 :: String -> String would make me happy
2020-10-23 16:00:39 +0000conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
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2020-10-23 16:01:22 +0000 <lep-delete> i dont know enough about Data.{Data,Typeable,Dynamic} to say whether it's possible or not
2020-10-23 16:01:29 +0000 <ulidtko> lep-delete, your serialization format will need to have something like a tagged-union
2020-10-23 16:01:30 +0000 <monsterchrom> What is the exact syntax, for starters? (Next will be "what is the semantics of that syntax?")
2020-10-23 16:01:42 +0000 <ulidtko> then you simply case match on it
2020-10-23 16:01:54 +0000 <ulidtko> here, look, reading images https://github.com/Twinside/Juicy.Pixels/blob/master/src/Codec/Picture.hs#L426-L435
2020-10-23 16:02:12 +0000 <ulidtko> it's really simple and there's no "high level" "type magic" involved
2020-10-23 16:02:18 +0000 <lep-delete> sure but a tagged union would need like all possible cases in beforehand, no?
2020-10-23 16:02:34 +0000 <lep-delete> im aware of the "normal" way
2020-10-23 16:02:36 +0000 <monsterchrom> What are your "all possible" cases?
2020-10-23 16:02:51 +0000 <monsterchrom> I was trying to extract that from "what is the exact syntax?"
2020-10-23 16:03:15 +0000 <ulidtko> yes, of course; otherwise what exactly would you mean by the serialization format ?
2020-10-23 16:03:22 +0000 <monsterchrom> Anyway talking only in the "abstract" is the root of all evil.
2020-10-23 16:03:46 +0000 <ulidtko> like, what monsterchrom says, define concretely what you need
2020-10-23 16:04:30 +0000 <lep-delete> simple example as above, i want the user supply a string value, have it `read` and append it to a list, which is stored `show`ed in a file
2020-10-23 16:04:41 +0000 <lep-delete> so anything that can be (Read a, Show a)
2020-10-23 16:04:59 +0000 <lep-delete> or ( ToJSON a, FromJSON a), or whatever
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2020-10-23 16:05:27 +0000 <ulidtko> use Json Value then?
2020-10-23 16:05:33 +0000 <ulidtko> the untyped thing
2020-10-23 16:05:48 +0000 <monsterchrom> If you say, "all legal Haskell types", you will be linking the totalily of GHC. You don't want to go there.
2020-10-23 16:05:52 +0000 <lep-delete> well i have a concrete type for each file
2020-10-23 16:06:21 +0000 <monsterchrom> HOW MANY TYPES ARE THERE?
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2020-10-23 16:15:38 +0000 <dolio> A proper class.
2020-10-23 16:15:48 +0000 <monsterchrom> heh
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2020-10-23 16:16:28 +0000hackagegopro-plus 0.4.1.0 - GoPro Plus Client API. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gopro-plus-0.4.1.0 (dustin)
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2020-10-23 16:19:58 +0000hackagehappstack-server 7.7.0 - Web related tools and services. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/happstack-server-7.7.0 (JeremyShaw)
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2020-10-23 16:31:07 +0000 <Guest45505> im wondering, how many thread can i open in concurrency within a haskell programm ? do one thread === one CPU core ?
2020-10-23 16:31:41 +0000 <Rembane> Guest45505: What kind of threads?
2020-10-23 16:32:00 +0000 <Guest45505> those that you open by calling forkIO for example
2020-10-23 16:32:01 +0000christo(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 16:32:47 +0000 <texasmynsted> I know this is a terrible question but . . . There are many options for writing "shell scripts" using Haskell. Too many for me to select one.
2020-10-23 16:33:21 +0000 <c_wraith> Guest45505: So... this is actually sort of complex, because GHC has a couple options that completely change how threads work. But in no case is a GHC thread an OS thread
2020-10-23 16:33:28 +0000 <texasmynsted> If my goal was to improve my Haskell skill, especially for streaming and concurrency, what would you recommend?
2020-10-23 16:34:04 +0000 <Rembane> texasmynsted: Go for the turtle one!
2020-10-23 16:34:16 +0000 <monsterchrom> "Green threads", i.e, many Haskell threads cramped to N cores, you choose N.
2020-10-23 16:34:27 +0000 <Rembane> texasmynsted: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/turtle
2020-10-23 16:34:34 +0000 <monsterchrom> Even if you have 64 cores you can tell the RTS to use just 2 cores.
2020-10-23 16:34:54 +0000 <monsterchrom> In fact "green threads" is more nuanced than that.
2020-10-23 16:34:57 +0000 <c_wraith> Guest45505: GHC has two different options for runtimes that can be linked in to programs it compiles. One uses a single thread for all Haskell code, which lets it skip all kinds of locking and synchronization primitives.
2020-10-23 16:34:58 +0000 <texasmynsted> why turtle. That is . . . not what I expected.
2020-10-23 16:35:32 +0000 <c_wraith> Guest45505: the other is what monsterchrom is describing, where it can split the Haskell threads across multiple OS threads.
2020-10-23 16:35:33 +0000 <monsterchrom> But if you know Java's "green threads", that's what we have too.
2020-10-23 16:36:34 +0000 <texasmynsted> lol. First thing it says is install Stack. (If I use turtle it will not be with Stack.)
2020-10-23 16:37:00 +0000 <Rembane> I propose that you can for all practical intents and purposes have an infinite amount of "green threads" and things will work just fine.
2020-10-23 16:37:14 +0000 <Rembane> texasmynsted: What was what you expected?
2020-10-23 16:37:17 +0000 <Guest45505> monsterchrom ok i see, thats much clearer for me now, thanks
2020-10-23 16:38:32 +0000Kolkrabe(~user@unaffiliated/siracusa)
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2020-10-23 16:39:11 +0000 <texasmynsted> Shell-conduit or something?
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2020-10-23 16:41:55 +0000 <Rembane> Cool, I have never used it. :)
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2020-10-23 16:46:32 +0000 <ulidtko> texasmynsted, best option for shell scripts is... bash.
2020-10-23 16:46:49 +0000conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-10-23 16:46:59 +0000 <ulidtko> however -- check out https://www.shellcheck.net it's written in haskell if that gives you the warm fuzzy feeling
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2020-10-23 16:49:39 +0000 <texasmynsted> ulidtko: I agree with you. I just mean for things that "outgrow" a shell script.
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2020-10-23 16:51:15 +0000 <ulidtko> yes, that happens all the time. either rewrite it, or deal with it (shellcheck is really helpful, also following consistent style)
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2020-10-23 16:53:16 +0000 <texasmynsted> Yes, I love shellscript.
2020-10-23 16:53:17 +0000xerox_(~xerox@unaffiliated/xerox)
2020-10-23 16:53:24 +0000 <texasmynsted> I mean shellcheck
2020-10-23 16:53:33 +0000 <texasmynsted> I have it integrated into vim
2020-10-23 16:53:59 +0000 <ulidtko> as for rewriting options: I sort of fail to see the point to "emulate" bash and try to make it look like shellscript...
2020-10-23 16:54:06 +0000 <ulidtko> same
2020-10-23 16:54:07 +0000entropyga1n(levitate@unaffiliated/entropygain)
2020-10-23 16:54:34 +0000 <ulidtko> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/HSH-2.1.3 using this one, you can spawn processes and pipes "just like" in bash
2020-10-23 16:55:09 +0000 <ulidtko> but all the ['extra', 'syntax'] makes you really want to go back to bash instead
2020-10-23 16:55:50 +0000tolt_(kevin@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe79:6b76)
2020-10-23 16:55:54 +0000christo(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 16:56:01 +0000 <ulidtko> so, a good linter like shellcheck really hits the sweat spot IMO
2020-10-23 16:56:02 +0000heredoc(heredoc@2a01:7e01::f03c:91ff:fec1:de1d)
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2020-10-23 16:56:26 +0000 <ulidtko> (*sweet haha)
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2020-10-23 16:57:12 +0000 <texasmynsted> I am not trying to emulate bash. Rather I am trying to find the best way to interact with shell processes that do not have a haskell module.
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2020-10-23 16:58:14 +0000 <texasmynsted> hmm. all good points
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2020-10-23 17:00:59 +0000GyroW(~GyroW@unaffiliated/gyrow)
2020-10-23 17:01:37 +0000christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-10-23 17:01:57 +0000hackagehappstack-server-tls 7.2.1.1 - extend happstack-server with https:// support (TLS/SSL) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/happstack-server-tls-7.2.1.1 (JeremyShaw)
2020-10-23 17:02:23 +0000 <Guest_47> ugh hi I'm a mac user trying to install haskell via ghcup but I keep getting this error message
2020-10-23 17:02:26 +0000 <Guest_47> dyld: lazy symbol binding failed: Symbol not found: _futimens Referenced from: /Users/georgewang/.ghcup/bin/ghcup (which was built for Mac OS X 10.13) Expected in: /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylibdyld: Symbol not found: _futimens Referenced from: /Users/georgewang/.ghcup/bin/ghcup (which was built for Mac OS X 10.13) Expected in:
2020-10-23 17:02:26 +0000 <Guest_47> /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylibsh: line 35: 25979 Abort trap: 6 ghcup "$@""_eghcup --cache install ghc recommended" failed!
2020-10-23 17:02:37 +0000Cthalupa(~cthulhu@47.186.47.75)
2020-10-23 17:03:02 +0000 <maerwald> Guest_47: what's your mac version?
2020-10-23 17:03:05 +0000britva(~britva@2a02:aa13:7240:2980:b1bf:9c31:7687:bea1)
2020-10-23 17:03:16 +0000 <Guest_47> 10.12
2020-10-23 17:03:31 +0000 <maerwald> not supported
2020-10-23 17:03:35 +0000 <Guest_47> oof
2020-10-23 17:03:51 +0000 <maerwald> I'm not even sure ghc itself will run there
2020-10-23 17:04:02 +0000 <maerwald> and cabal
2020-10-23 17:04:30 +0000 <__monty__> Course they will.
2020-10-23 17:04:41 +0000 <maerwald> __monty__: did you try?
2020-10-23 17:04:45 +0000jkaye[m](jkayematri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cptxfbojabslrjcy)
2020-10-23 17:04:47 +0000 <__monty__> At least, they work for me built with a darwin version of 10.12.
2020-10-23 17:04:58 +0000holo1Faye
2020-10-23 17:05:03 +0000wrunt[m](wruntmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-tobpdugmvlykanbe)
2020-10-23 17:05:17 +0000 <maerwald> __monty__: I'm talking about the official bindists
2020-10-23 17:05:36 +0000 <merijn> GHC supports 10.7 or later, iirc
2020-10-23 17:05:52 +0000 <monsterchrom> Now commences going out of one's way to give ghcup an obscure URL to download from. :)
2020-10-23 17:05:55 +0000rotty(rotty@ghost.xx.vu) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-10-23 17:06:02 +0000chreekat[m](chreekatma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-tbcdmvvmfcadbfxu)
2020-10-23 17:06:07 +0000 <merijn> monsterchrom: It's the same URL as the regular macOS one
2020-10-23 17:06:34 +0000 <merijn> Guest_47: If you're commandline savvy you can just install the bindist yourself from here: https://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_8_10_2.html#macosx_x86_64
2020-10-23 17:06:34 +0000pqwy[m](pqwymatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-htkzhbylfcdwfzyr)
2020-10-23 17:06:47 +0000 <merijn> Which (at least claims) to work on anything later than 10.7
2020-10-23 17:07:05 +0000 <Guest_47> aha
2020-10-23 17:07:09 +0000 <Guest_47> cheers, I'll try that
2020-10-23 17:07:31 +0000 <merijn> Guest_47: It's just a matter of "./configure --prefix=whatever/path/you/want && make install"
2020-10-23 17:07:54 +0000kadoban(kadobanmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ibzwjrmlfzihcpnq)
2020-10-23 17:08:02 +0000themsay[m](themsaymat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bqmyhbzuevubqaxn)
2020-10-23 17:08:11 +0000sm[m](simonmicma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-tilmtmvnszzwjtcv)
2020-10-23 17:08:13 +0000domenkozar[m](domenkozar@NixOS/user/domenkozar)
2020-10-23 17:08:21 +0000 <merijn> Ah, I'm not sure if cabal-install has prebuilt binaries for that, though, although there should be a bootstrap script to compile it with just GHC installed
2020-10-23 17:08:32 +0000mikr[m](mikrdavral@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jnlucypbifmucvfy)
2020-10-23 17:09:16 +0000 <__monty__> (If all else fails, nixpkgs has both GHC and cabal-install cached so you could install them with nix.)
2020-10-23 17:09:19 +0000sureyeaah(shauryab98@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-yafeivvctuhylrnm)
2020-10-23 17:10:24 +0000 <__monty__> Though I guess brew should have both too.
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2020-10-23 17:29:15 +0000xelxebar(~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar)
2020-10-23 17:29:27 +0000 <maerwald> yes, install half another OS just to get GHC :p
2020-10-23 17:29:49 +0000denisse(~spaceCat@gateway/tor-sasl/alephzer0)
2020-10-23 17:30:00 +0000 <monsterchrom> I was procratinating ghcjs because of that. :)
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2020-10-23 17:31:22 +0000 <jtmar> dumb question: is there any way to get this to work? `data U (a :: ()) where { U :: U (() :: ()) }` It fails with "Expected kind ‘()’, but ‘()’ has kind ‘*’"
2020-10-23 17:31:24 +0000 <maerwald> I bought 16GB more ram and 250GB more disk space, just so I can run a nix expression, which runs some stuff you could do in 50 LOC bash
2020-10-23 17:31:35 +0000thir_(~thir@p200300f27f19de001ce90606181a98e7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2020-10-23 17:31:39 +0000 <maerwald> (but it's reproducible)
2020-10-23 17:31:42 +0000andreas303(~andreas@gateway/tor-sasl/andreas303)
2020-10-23 17:32:50 +0000 <maerwald> when it doesn't OOM out, it works well
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2020-10-23 17:34:34 +0000gehmehgeh(~ircuser1@gateway/tor-sasl/gehmehgeh)
2020-10-23 17:34:34 +0000 <yushyin> ah yes, I know that problem, but just with cabal build :P
2020-10-23 17:34:51 +0000seanvert(~user@177.84.244.242)
2020-10-23 17:35:50 +0000Unhammer(~Unhammer@gateway/tor-sasl/unhammer)
2020-10-23 17:36:27 +0000hackageprolude 0.0.0.4 - ITProTV's custom prelude https://hackage.haskell.org/package/prolude-0.0.0.4 (saramuse)
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2020-10-23 17:40:41 +0000 <monsterchrom> data U (a :: ()) where { U :: U '() }
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2020-10-23 17:56:16 +0000 <jtmar> oh, yeah, single quotes, right. thanks.
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2020-10-23 17:58:43 +0000 <monsterchrom> I think basically the parser stage doesn't have access to type/kind checking, so when it sees "X :: Y", it cannot infer "since Y is not Type, I see what you mean by X".
2020-10-23 18:00:01 +0000robotadam1(~robotadam@154.13.1.56) ()
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2020-10-23 18:06:05 +0000kritzefitz(~kritzefit@212.86.56.80)
2020-10-23 18:09:00 +0000 <__monty__> maerwald: Color me skeptical. I've run NixOS just fine with 2GB RAM.
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2020-10-23 18:11:02 +0000 <maerwald> __monty__: yes, I have an expression that needs 6GB of memory (not the stuff it builds/compiles, but the nix-build process itself)
2020-10-23 18:11:12 +0000 <maerwald> that's some nice memory leak
2020-10-23 18:11:44 +0000geekosaur(82659a09@host154-009.vpn.uakron.edu) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2020-10-23 18:12:09 +0000 <__monty__> Then "I bought 16 GB more RAM" is very misleading.
2020-10-23 18:12:29 +0000chaosmasttter(~chaosmast@p200300c4a7138f0100d84ef38a79333e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2020-10-23 18:13:34 +0000emmanuel_erc(~user@2604:2000:1382:ce03:e840:9069:29cf:ab15)
2020-10-23 18:13:35 +0000rotaerk(rotaerk@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe70:4a45)
2020-10-23 18:13:56 +0000 <maerwald> the other half was for hls
2020-10-23 18:14:07 +0000britva(~britva@2a02:aa13:7240:2980:b1bf:9c31:7687:bea1) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2020-10-23 18:14:10 +0000 <maerwald> but that's crashing now most of the time, so I have free ram for nix
2020-10-23 18:14:23 +0000isovector1(~isovector@172.103.216.166)
2020-10-23 18:15:07 +0000 <monsterchrom> You should also discuss the "250GB disk space" and how misleading it also is, while you're at it.
2020-10-23 18:15:08 +0000marek(~mmahut@209.250.249.245) (Changing host)
2020-10-23 18:15:08 +0000marek(~mmahut@fedora/pyxel)
2020-10-23 18:15:24 +0000 <maerwald> yeah, half for nix, half for docker... they're racing
2020-10-23 18:15:44 +0000 <maerwald> the fun part about docker is the "prune" command never finishes
2020-10-23 18:15:58 +0000conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-10-23 18:16:27 +0000wroathe(~wroathe@c-73-24-27-54.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-10-23 18:16:58 +0000 <monsterchrom> Evergrowing space usage and neverending time usage.
2020-10-23 18:17:09 +0000 <maerwald> and when you try to stop it, you can't, because the daemon is blocked, then you kill everything and rm -rf
2020-10-23 18:17:58 +0000britva(~britva@2a02:aa13:7240:2980:b1bf:9c31:7687:bea1)
2020-10-23 18:17:59 +0000 <maerwald> bonus points for docker: it actually takes less time to "rebuild" than nix
2020-10-23 18:18:21 +0000 <maerwald> it just downloads gigabytes of trash, nix seems to spend more CPU
2020-10-23 18:19:55 +0000 <maerwald> I have this theory that half of nix IO load is due to `realpath`
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2020-10-23 18:34:28 +0000hackagecall-alloy 0.2.1.0 - A simple library to call Alloy given a specification https://hackage.haskell.org/package/call-alloy-0.2.1.0 (marcellus)
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2020-10-23 18:43:40 +0000 <monsterchrom> w00t Alloy
2020-10-23 18:43:40 +0000chkno(~chkno@75-7-2-127.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-23 18:43:53 +0000chkno(~chkno@75-7-2-127.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-10-23 18:44:29 +0000 <monsterchrom> Oh God no, "getInstances". Java abstract factory all over again.
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2020-10-23 18:47:28 +0000hackagepandoc 2.11.0.4 - Conversion between markup formats https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pandoc-2.11.0.4 (JohnMacFarlane)
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2020-10-23 19:11:57 +0000hackagefaktory 1.0.1.3 - Faktory Worker for Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/faktory-1.0.1.3 (PatrickBrisbin)
2020-10-23 19:15:41 +0000ericsagnes(~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:c0a:b447:b123:a55a)
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2020-10-23 19:21:09 +0000 <DigitalKiwi> __monty__: i have nixos on my rpi 3b
2020-10-23 19:21:56 +0000 <DigitalKiwi> with 32GB micro sd card
2020-10-23 19:22:23 +0000 <__monty__> DigitalKiwi: Yeah, it's possible, but it's not exactly an incredible UX. I was just not happy with painting nix as requiring 16GB RAM.
2020-10-23 19:23:44 +0000blip(58823ddf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.88.130.61.223)
2020-10-23 19:24:02 +0000 <dminuoso> *memory
2020-10-23 19:24:08 +0000 <blip> Why can't I define `data A = B | Proxy 'B`
2020-10-23 19:24:12 +0000conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-10-23 19:24:27 +0000 <dminuoso> blip: That, arguably, is better asked in #ghc :p
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2020-10-23 19:24:41 +0000 <maerwald> __monty__: if one nix-build process requires 6GB and you have firefox open, you need more than 16GB
2020-10-23 19:25:00 +0000 <davean> blip: Proxy?
2020-10-23 19:25:06 +0000 <dminuoso> blip: It seems like an engineering problem, allowing for self-recursive data declarations
2020-10-23 19:25:11 +0000 <maerwald> correction: the nix-build process needed 6GB, ghc then needed another few
2020-10-23 19:25:12 +0000NinjaTrappeur(~ninja@unaffiliated/ninjatrappeur) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 19:25:15 +0000 <blip> Sorry, I mean't: `data A = B | C (Proxy B)`
2020-10-23 19:25:25 +0000 <dminuoso> blip: Still.
2020-10-23 19:25:38 +0000 <dminuoso> It doesn't really change, as the initial example is fine too
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2020-10-23 19:25:53 +0000 <davean> blip: Well, at best you'd need DataKinds, and B is a constructor not a type its self
2020-10-23 19:25:55 +0000 <dminuoso> blip: I'd git blame the ghc source code on the diagnostic.
2020-10-23 19:26:05 +0000 <dminuoso> All I know is, there's a reason we have a *special* diagnostic for it
2020-10-23 19:26:06 +0000ukari(~ukari@unaffiliated/ukari) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 19:26:09 +0000 <blip> davean: I know, it's promoted
2020-10-23 19:26:09 +0000 <dminuoso> % :set -XDataKinds
2020-10-23 19:26:09 +0000 <yahb> dminuoso:
2020-10-23 19:26:13 +0000 <dminuoso> % data Foo = Foo Foo
2020-10-23 19:26:14 +0000 <yahb> dminuoso:
2020-10-23 19:26:18 +0000conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-10-23 19:26:18 +0000 <dminuoso> % data Foo = Foo 'Foo
2020-10-23 19:26:19 +0000 <yahb> dminuoso: ; <interactive>:140:16: error:; * Data constructor `Foo' cannot be used here (it is defined and used in the same recursive group); * In the type 'Foo; In the definition of data constructor `Foo'; In the data declaration for `Foo'
2020-10-23 19:26:34 +0000 <blip> Yeah, that's understandable, the compiler would loop
2020-10-23 19:26:36 +0000 <davean> I mean you can't generate an infinite type either
2020-10-23 19:27:01 +0000 <dminuoso> blip: Hold on, in the above, is the B supposed to have a tick or not?
2020-10-23 19:27:03 +0000 <blip> But if I promote another constructor it's not infinite
2020-10-23 19:27:07 +0000 <blip> yep
2020-10-23 19:27:12 +0000 <blip> they are omittable
2020-10-23 19:27:14 +0000 <dminuoso> blip: But that's the same example.
2020-10-23 19:27:25 +0000 <dminuoso> Im just aksing because it could be ambgiuous without more context
2020-10-23 19:27:35 +0000 <dminuoso> Oh, my example was poor
2020-10-23 19:27:46 +0000 <dminuoso> % data Foo = F 'F
2020-10-23 19:27:46 +0000 <yahb> dminuoso: ; <interactive>:141:14: error:; * Data constructor `F' cannot be used here (it is defined and used in the same recursive group); * In the type 'F; In the definition of data constructor `F'; In the data declaration for `Foo'
2020-10-23 19:28:09 +0000 <blip> data Foo = F | X (Proxy F')
2020-10-23 19:28:12 +0000 <blip> darn
2020-10-23 19:28:16 +0000 <dminuoso> Note the choice of the word "group"
2020-10-23 19:28:21 +0000 <blip> data Foo = F | X (Proxy 'F)
2020-10-23 19:28:44 +0000 <blip> yes, I know that it doesn't work. The question is why.
2020-10-23 19:29:10 +0000 <dminuoso> blip: Ask Richard Eisenberg? :p
2020-10-23 19:29:12 +0000christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-10-23 19:29:49 +0000 <dminuoso> Almost confident it's an GHC engineering problem
2020-10-23 19:30:35 +0000 <blip> I'm solving that in a very ugly and unsafe way with Symbols
2020-10-23 19:30:38 +0000 <dminuoso> blip: See note [Recursion and promoting data constructors]
2020-10-23 19:30:50 +0000 <dminuoso> in compiler/GHC/Tc/TyCl.hs
2020-10-23 19:30:58 +0000dcoutts_(~duncan@33.14.75.194.dyn.plus.net)
2020-10-23 19:31:23 +0000aarvar(~foewfoiew@50.35.43.33)
2020-10-23 19:31:43 +0000 <dminuoso> Mmm that note doesnt actually contain something useful
2020-10-23 19:32:14 +0000 <dminuoso> But perhaps this would loop the kind checker when the data declaration is checked?
2020-10-23 19:32:26 +0000N3RGY(~N3RGY@65.141.87.122)
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2020-10-23 19:33:12 +0000 <blip> I think it would loop if you would reference the same Constructor
2020-10-23 19:33:28 +0000 <blip> data A = B (Proxy 'B)
2020-10-23 19:33:56 +0000 <blip> Or mutal recursion: data A = B (Proxy 'C) | C (Proxy 'B)
2020-10-23 19:34:23 +0000 <dminuoso> blip: again, this is probably better asked in #ghc, the ghc dev mailing list or the issue tracker. :)
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2020-10-23 19:34:52 +0000 <blip> dminuoso: ok, thanks. I'll ponder it a bit and ask tomorrow in #ghc
2020-10-23 19:35:16 +0000 <dminuoso> The mailing list is likely a better candidate
2020-10-23 19:35:39 +0000conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-10-23 19:35:45 +0000 <blip> ok
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2020-10-23 19:51:39 +0000 <blip> dminuoso: another question, is there a function Foo with following properties: `data A = B; Foo 'B = "B" :: Symbol`
2020-10-23 19:52:02 +0000 <blip> like ShowType from the type error messages, but which returns a Symbol and not a Text
2020-10-23 19:53:25 +0000invaser(~Thunderbi@31.148.23.125)
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2020-10-23 19:55:43 +0000 <dminuoso> blip: There's only the bits for type errors
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2020-10-23 19:56:57 +0000 <blip> hm, i'll try to unsafeCoerce, perhaps it's under the hood the same
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2020-10-23 19:57:30 +0000 <dminuoso> unsafeCoerce on the type level?
2020-10-23 19:57:34 +0000 <dminuoso> We have that?
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2020-10-23 19:58:14 +0000 <blip> with proxies
2020-10-23 19:59:06 +0000 <blip> unsafeCoerce :: KnownSymbol a => Proxy ErrorMessage -> Proxy a
2020-10-23 19:59:07 +0000 <blip> ?
2020-10-23 19:59:45 +0000alp(~alp@2a01:e0a:58b:4920:552d:a100:fe9e:8159) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-10-23 20:01:26 +0000 <dminuoso> blip: What's your intention here?
2020-10-23 20:02:02 +0000 <blip> I want to get the name of a promoted constructor as a Symbol
2020-10-23 20:02:44 +0000conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
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2020-10-23 20:04:01 +0000gxt(~gxt@gateway/tor-sasl/gxt) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 20:04:08 +0000 <ghoulguy> To get constructors as symbols I'd expect you to have to write some TH to actually generate the code
2020-10-23 20:04:45 +0000gxt(~gxt@gateway/tor-sasl/gxt)
2020-10-23 20:04:48 +0000 <ghoulguy> Like a: type family AsSymbol (a :: k) :: Symbol -- and then a bunch of generated instances
2020-10-23 20:05:36 +0000 <blip> If they aren't promoted it would work via generics
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2020-10-23 20:06:57 +0000 <ghoulguy> yeah, looks like it
2020-10-23 20:06:59 +0000 <blip> Yeah, I'd love to avoid TH
2020-10-23 20:07:04 +0000notnatebtw(~nate@110.138.18.157)
2020-10-23 20:08:15 +0000 <ghoulguy> >>> data T = C deriving (Generic)
2020-10-23 20:08:15 +0000 <ghoulguy> >>> :kind! Rep T ()
2020-10-23 20:08:15 +0000 <ghoulguy> Rep T () :: * = D1 ('MetaData "T" "Ghci3" "interactive" 'False) (C1 ('MetaCons "C" 'PrefixI 'False) U1) ()
2020-10-23 20:08:45 +0000 <ghoulguy> "T" is a Symbol there
2020-10-23 20:08:57 +0000 <blip> Yes, and "C" as well.
2020-10-23 20:10:47 +0000mirrorbird(~psutcliff@2a00:801:42b:7891:16b1:e53f:55b2:15e1)
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2020-10-23 20:12:50 +0000bartemius(~bartemius@109-252-20-20.nat.spd-mgts.ru)
2020-10-23 20:13:27 +0000texasmynsted(~texasmyns@185.240.246.92)
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2020-10-23 20:14:45 +0000 <blip> I'd want to have `data T = A | B` and a function F (a :: T) which gives F 'B = "B"
2020-10-23 20:15:03 +0000 <blip> and I think that's not possible with generics
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2020-10-23 20:19:03 +0000 <ghoulguy> GHC.Generics operate on types of kind * -> * and *
2020-10-23 20:19:08 +0000texasmynsted(~texasmyns@185.240.246.92)
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2020-10-23 20:20:02 +0000 <blip> yes, that's the problem
2020-10-23 20:20:19 +0000 <blip> wrapping in Proxy doesn't help
2020-10-23 20:20:24 +0000rprije(~rprije@194-193-168-77.tpgi.com.au)
2020-10-23 20:21:52 +0000 <blip> well, sounds like TH is the only way foreward
2020-10-23 20:21:55 +0000 <blip> or a plugin
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2020-10-23 20:23:19 +0000 <ghoulguy> Or just write it out by hand if it's a small number of cases
2020-10-23 20:23:28 +0000texasmynsted(~texasmyns@185.240.246.92) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-10-23 20:23:36 +0000 <ghoulguy> if it's not write it out by hand to make sure you like the API before you invest TH time on it :)
2020-10-23 20:24:04 +0000 <blip> about 100 promoted constructors :)
2020-10-23 20:24:24 +0000 <ghoulguy> a job for an editor macro then
2020-10-23 20:25:13 +0000 <blip> yes, the code would be easily generated. I'd just love to avoid inflating my source files
2020-10-23 20:25:43 +0000 <ghoulguy> I'd expect the impact of a plugin or TH to be higher
2020-10-23 20:25:47 +0000 <monsterchrom> "F 'B = ..." makes F either a type family or a term-level function Proxy T -> ...
2020-10-23 20:25:59 +0000thir(~thir@p200300f27f19de001ce90606181a98e7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2020-10-23 20:26:08 +0000 <ghoulguy> f :: proxy t -> SomeSymbol
2020-10-23 20:26:54 +0000 <ghoulguy> err: proxy T
2020-10-23 20:26:54 +0000 <blip> monsterchrom: I'd prefer to avoid term-level
2020-10-23 20:27:01 +0000 <ghoulguy> probably nicer to do the type family
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2020-10-23 20:27:37 +0000 <blip> proxy (x :: T)
2020-10-23 20:27:42 +0000 <ghoulguy> as a term-level it'd be a class method
2020-10-23 20:28:06 +0000 <blip> yes, but type level guarantees no runtime overhead
2020-10-23 20:28:13 +0000 <blip> term-level is always a risk
2020-10-23 20:28:35 +0000 <ghoulguy> type-level means you won't know if you have a knownsymbol constraint to use
2020-10-23 20:28:43 +0000 <ghoulguy> which might not matter
2020-10-23 20:28:56 +0000 <ghoulguy> You can always just assert one
2020-10-23 20:29:05 +0000 <ghoulguy> KnownSymbol (F thing) =>
2020-10-23 20:29:22 +0000 <ghoulguy> sounds like a mess either way :)
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2020-10-23 20:29:58 +0000 <blip> I think I'll go for the type family
2020-10-23 20:30:21 +0000 <Uniaika> hello there
2020-10-23 20:30:27 +0000 <blip> type family Bananas (x :: A) where Bananas B = "B" etc...
2020-10-23 20:30:47 +0000 <blip> hello
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2020-10-23 20:38:27 +0000hackagestack2cabal 1.0.12 - Convert stack projects to cabal.project + cabal.project.freeze https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stack2cabal-1.0.12 (maerwald)
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2020-10-23 20:53:50 +0000 <pomiiu> Hi everyone. Just found out about ghcup. Is this the new standard way to install GHC?
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2020-10-23 20:53:58 +0000taurux(~taurux@net-188-152-78-51.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
2020-10-23 20:54:01 +0000 <monsterchrom> Yes.
2020-10-23 20:54:04 +0000 <ghoulguy> pomiiu: yup
2020-10-23 20:54:13 +0000Amras(~Amras@unaffiliated/amras0000)
2020-10-23 20:55:02 +0000Lowl3v3l(~Lowl3v3l@dslb-002-203-195-108.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
2020-10-23 20:55:17 +0000 <pomiiu> There are lots of packages like indent that I think assume stack. Like hindent, which suggests "stack install hindent" to install. Is it just "cabal install hindent" then?
2020-10-23 20:55:41 +0000Neo--(~neo@188-230-154-134.dynamic.t-2.net)
2020-10-23 20:55:46 +0000 <maerwald> prefer: cabal install --install-method=copy --overwrite-policy=always
2020-10-23 20:55:54 +0000motherfsck(~motherfsc@unaffiliated/motherfsck)
2020-10-23 20:56:05 +0000 <maerwald> which is closer to what stack does too
2020-10-23 20:56:06 +0000 <monsterchrom> You should just try. Add "--dry-run" for a preview of what would be involved.
2020-10-23 20:56:07 +0000jbox(~atlas@unaffiliated/jbox) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-10-23 20:56:18 +0000 <pomiiu> Ah okay. Thanks.
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2020-10-23 21:29:24 +0000 <hc> is there a haskell implementation of youtube-dl? ;-)
2020-10-23 21:30:13 +0000 <texasmyn_> pomiiu: have you tried brittany?
2020-10-23 21:31:09 +0000texasmyn_texasmynsted[m]_
2020-10-23 21:31:12 +0000 <texasmynsted[m]_> oops
2020-10-23 21:31:18 +0000texasmynsted[m]_texasmynsted
2020-10-23 21:32:04 +0000 <texasmynsted> I have tried them all, https://github.com/lspitzner/brittany works very well and worth a look. I do not have enough scroll-back to know about your hindent needs.
2020-10-23 21:32:09 +0000notnatebtw(~nate@110.138.18.157)
2020-10-23 21:33:13 +0000 <yushyin> fourmolu/ormolu
2020-10-23 21:34:01 +0000 <texasmynsted> I guess I have _not_ tried them all. I have not tried ormolu, I think
2020-10-23 21:34:22 +0000 <texasmynsted> I mean fourmolu
2020-10-23 21:36:08 +0000merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 21:36:57 +0000 <texasmynsted> darn now I have to try another one. heh
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2020-10-23 21:40:41 +0000 <sm[m]> gotta collect them all!
2020-10-23 21:44:37 +0000 <pomiiu> Has anyone tried to build hindent recently? I get src/HIndent/Types.hs:78:27: error: • Could not deduce (MonadFail m) arising from a use of ‘fail’
2020-10-23 21:50:38 +0000crestfallen(~john@128.32.176.159)
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2020-10-23 21:52:43 +0000 <maerwald> that shouldn't be hard to fixe
2020-10-23 21:52:46 +0000 <crestfallen> hi please help me understand "creates the effect of both the original layers", here: IO(IO ()) 'join' can be thought of as combining the effects described by two m-layers, one nested inside the other. combining them into a single m-layer, creates the effects of both the original layers.
2020-10-23 21:53:17 +0000 <maerwald> :t join
2020-10-23 21:53:18 +0000 <lambdabot> Monad m => m (m a) -> m a
2020-10-23 21:53:19 +0000erolm_a(~erolm_a@62.18.213.68)
2020-10-23 21:53:23 +0000 <maerwald> @src join
2020-10-23 21:53:23 +0000 <lambdabot> join x = x >>= id
2020-10-23 21:53:34 +0000 <maerwald> :t (>>=)
2020-10-23 21:53:35 +0000 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
2020-10-23 21:53:38 +0000 <maerwald> @src (>>=)
2020-10-23 21:53:38 +0000 <lambdabot> Source not found. Do you think like you type?
2020-10-23 21:53:44 +0000 <maerwald> something like that
2020-10-23 21:53:47 +0000 <maerwald> follow the rabbit
2020-10-23 21:55:05 +0000dbmikus(~dbmikus@cpe-76-167-86-219.natsow.res.rr.com)
2020-10-23 21:57:19 +0000 <crestfallen> maerwald, thanks, but what does it mean to create the effects of both the original layers. IO() should not be read into, I'm assuming..
2020-10-23 21:57:49 +0000 <maerwald> I honestly ind that sentence confusing. Seems like someone tried to over-explain stuff
2020-10-23 21:57:49 +0000 <dminuoso> crestfallen: I frequently like to adopt the notion that `IO T` is a list of assembly instructions, that, if they were executed produced something of type `T`. So `IO (IO T)` is some assembly instructions, that, if they were executed, would give you another list of assembly instructions
2020-10-23 21:57:57 +0000 <dminuoso> And if those were executed, you'd get something of value T
2020-10-23 21:58:20 +0000 <dminuoso> Now, `join` is saying "give me a list of assembly instruction that does the first, and then the second"
2020-10-23 21:58:33 +0000 <dminuoso> Thereby "combining" these two
2020-10-23 21:59:01 +0000 <maerwald> If language is confusing you, throw it away and look at code
2020-10-23 21:59:41 +0000 <maerwald> > join (Just (Just 2))
2020-10-23 21:59:46 +0000 <lambdabot> Just 2
2020-10-23 22:00:23 +0000 <maerwald> > join Nothing
2020-10-23 22:00:26 +0000 <lambdabot> Nothing
2020-10-23 22:00:36 +0000 <maerwald> > join (Just Nothing)
2020-10-23 22:00:38 +0000 <lambdabot> Nothing
2020-10-23 22:00:46 +0000 <dminuoso> crestfallen: In terms of power, join and (>>=) are completely equivalent. The only reason `join` is not a method of Monad (and an alternative to implement instead of (>>=)) is actually some very interesting interaction with other extensions.
2020-10-23 22:01:14 +0000DataComputist(~lumeng@static-50-43-26-251.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-23 22:01:35 +0000 <crestfallen> so Nothing in that last one has no effect, since its extracted from Just Nothing ?
2020-10-23 22:03:29 +0000 <crestfallen> I ask, because of this note: An effect is the structural information of a Functor, the part that's not parametric. Does that mean a Nothing is effectual ? -- yes
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2020-10-23 22:03:55 +0000 <maerwald> what are you reading?
2020-10-23 22:03:55 +0000fendor(~fendor@178.115.130.82.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2020-10-23 22:04:03 +0000ulidtko(~ulidtko@193.111.48.79)
2020-10-23 22:04:05 +0000 <crestfallen> so I'm confused about Nothing as non/effectual
2020-10-23 22:04:09 +0000 <dminuoso> an "effect" is really just a handwavy and very non-precise idea that comes from already existing intuition
2020-10-23 22:04:32 +0000 <dminuoso> "effect" is not something useful for understanding what all of this means, it's rather the *result* of having gained some understanding, and making some analogies
2020-10-23 22:04:37 +0000 <maerwald> This sounds like lecture notes :p
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2020-10-23 22:05:35 +0000 <crestfallen> one moment pls
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2020-10-23 22:06:12 +0000 <maerwald> crestfallen: you can think of `Maybe Int` as having an effect flow (Nothing and Just) and a value flow (Int)
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2020-10-23 22:07:18 +0000 <maerwald> `join` just combines the effects... it's actually pretty boring
2020-10-23 22:07:19 +0000 <maerwald> :p
2020-10-23 22:07:21 +0000 <crestfallen> so if we extract Nothing from Just -- join Just Nothing -- what is the result, Nothing, there? just out of curiosity
2020-10-23 22:07:49 +0000conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-10-23 22:07:50 +0000 <maerwald> crestfallen: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.0.0/docs/src/GHC.Base.html#line-1005
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2020-10-23 22:08:35 +0000 <maerwald> maybe would be nicer to show the pattern matching for join
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2020-10-23 22:09:09 +0000 <crestfallen> not sure I follow, if Just and Nothing are both in the effect flow..
2020-10-23 22:09:50 +0000 <crestfallen> because my notes have Nothing as effectual, but in this case Nothing is in the parameter
2020-10-23 22:11:11 +0000 <maerwald> crestfallen: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/lJ9EjYAJ
2020-10-23 22:11:37 +0000 <maerwald> pretty boring right?
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2020-10-23 22:13:05 +0000 <crestfallen> its boring but then I read about effects .. once again .. and have to be content without understanding it.
2020-10-23 22:13:42 +0000 <maerwald> that's just jargon... what matters is the typeclass
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2020-10-23 22:13:56 +0000 <maerwald> and that it applies for many more stuff
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2020-10-23 22:14:28 +0000 <maerwald> > join [[1,2,3]]
2020-10-23 22:14:31 +0000 <lambdabot> [1,2,3]
2020-10-23 22:15:17 +0000 <crestfallen> join == concat
2020-10-23 22:16:41 +0000 <maerwald> > join (+) 8
2020-10-23 22:16:44 +0000 <lambdabot> 16
2020-10-23 22:16:45 +0000 <maerwald> xD
2020-10-23 22:16:52 +0000 <maerwald> ignore that one
2020-10-23 22:17:05 +0000 <crestfallen> ??
2020-10-23 22:17:10 +0000 <crestfallen> > join (+) 8
2020-10-23 22:17:12 +0000 <lambdabot> 16
2020-10-23 22:18:26 +0000 <maerwald> > join (\x -> \y -> x + y) 8
2020-10-23 22:18:28 +0000 <lambdabot> 16
2020-10-23 22:18:36 +0000 <maerwald> so functions are monads too
2020-10-23 22:19:15 +0000 <crestfallen> god I have notes that seem to be conflicting.. maddening
2020-10-23 22:20:26 +0000 <maerwald> here's the definition https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.0.0/docs/src/GHC.Base.html#line-979
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2020-10-23 22:22:20 +0000 <maerwald> Also see this in-depth answer: https://stackoverflow.com/a/5316690
2020-10-23 22:22:39 +0000 <crestfallen> maerwald, I have this: An 'm a' is an effect; Nothing is not an 'm a'
2020-10-23 22:22:55 +0000 <maerwald> > Nothing :: Maybe Int
2020-10-23 22:22:57 +0000 <lambdabot> Nothing
2020-10-23 22:23:00 +0000 <maerwald> why not?
2020-10-23 22:23:52 +0000 <crestfallen> > Nothing :: Maybe Bool
2020-10-23 22:23:54 +0000 <lambdabot> Nothing
2020-10-23 22:24:12 +0000 <crestfallen> interesting.
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2020-10-23 22:24:22 +0000 <maerwald> stop thinking about effects
2020-10-23 22:24:43 +0000 <crestfallen> ok that's interesting thanks , I'll read that SO. appreciate it!
2020-10-23 22:24:50 +0000 <maerwald> it's just a class: Monad
2020-10-23 22:25:24 +0000 <crestfallen> maerwald, let me show you one thing...
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2020-10-23 22:29:59 +0000DataComputist(~lumeng@static-50-43-26-251.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net)
2020-10-23 22:32:32 +0000 <crestfallen> "effect" acquired a second meaning broader than that of "side-effect" -- namely, whatever is introduced through a type constructor which is a Monad instance.
2020-10-23 22:33:00 +0000 <maerwald> I'm getting headache reading that :D
2020-10-23 22:33:07 +0000 <crestfallen> :)
2020-10-23 22:33:10 +0000 <crestfallen> sorry
2020-10-23 22:33:20 +0000 <maerwald> Is it lecture notes?
2020-10-23 22:33:50 +0000 <crestfallen> it's SO but it's referring to a Wadler paper
2020-10-23 22:34:15 +0000 <maerwald> He's maybe a bit too smart to explain it simply :p
2020-10-23 22:34:38 +0000 <maerwald> "side-effect" is an even more confusing term too
2020-10-23 22:34:44 +0000 <maerwald> even haskellers get confused about it
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2020-10-23 22:35:16 +0000 <crestfallen> monads encapsulate effects.. so it's something I'll just ignore for a while I gues
2020-10-23 22:35:17 +0000 <crestfallen> s
2020-10-23 22:35:28 +0000hackagecapnp 0.7.0.0 - Cap'n Proto for Haskell https://hackage.haskell.org/package/capnp-0.7.0.0 (isd)
2020-10-23 22:35:39 +0000 <maerwald> did you remeber the Monad instance of Maybe?
2020-10-23 22:35:50 +0000 <maerwald> It starts like this: "instance Monad Maybe where"
2020-10-23 22:36:06 +0000 <maerwald> not "instance Monad Maybe a where"
2020-10-23 22:36:11 +0000justanotheruser(~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-10-23 22:36:31 +0000 <maerwald> and in the definition we know nothing about the value
2020-10-23 22:36:32 +0000constR(uid58205@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kmhanpixnsfkszux)
2020-10-23 22:36:36 +0000 <maerwald> and just do stuff with constructors
2020-10-23 22:37:00 +0000 <maerwald> if you call constructors effects, then yeah, sure
2020-10-23 22:37:35 +0000 <crestfallen> maerwald, thanks I'll sort it out
2020-10-23 22:37:58 +0000hackagegopro-plus 0.4.1.1 - GoPro Plus Client API. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gopro-plus-0.4.1.1 (dustin)
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2020-10-23 22:40:08 +0000 <maerwald> also, we call `Maybe` a type constructor and Just and Nothing a data constructor
2020-10-23 22:40:27 +0000 <maerwald> often they have the same name, don't mix them up
2020-10-23 22:41:18 +0000 <maerwald> data Foo = Foo Int
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2020-10-23 22:44:57 +0000 <crestfallen> maerwald, thanks. yeah this was very helpful, what you said at the end: "instance Monad Maybe where" not "instance Monad Maybe a where." And in the definition we know nothing about the value, and just do stuff with constructors. If you call constructors effects, then yeah, sure
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2020-10-23 23:26:07 +0000JohnnyL(~john@unaffiliated/johnnyl)
2020-10-23 23:26:27 +0000justanotheruser(~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser)
2020-10-23 23:26:28 +0000 <JohnnyL> Are there any plans to make haskell for the browser or perhaps a 'mini' version of haskell?
2020-10-23 23:26:57 +0000 <monsterchrom> Does GHCJS count?
2020-10-23 23:27:40 +0000erolm_a(~erolm_a@62.18.213.68) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-23 23:27:42 +0000 <monsterchrom> And the multitude of functional/typed languages like purescript.
2020-10-23 23:28:14 +0000erolm_a(~erolm_a@62.18.213.68)
2020-10-23 23:28:34 +0000ericsagnes(~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:c30c:e109:135c:6061)
2020-10-23 23:28:47 +0000 <JohnnyL> ok
2020-10-23 23:28:49 +0000 <JohnnyL> i'll have to check.
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2020-10-23 23:30:47 +0000 <JohnnyL> Is ghcjs stable? Or is it same shady buggy product?
2020-10-23 23:31:02 +0000DirefulSalt(DirefulSal@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/direfulsalt)
2020-10-23 23:31:05 +0000 <monsterchrom> stable
2020-10-23 23:32:12 +0000p8m(p8m@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/p8m)
2020-10-23 23:36:44 +0000 <simon> apparently much better than before
2020-10-23 23:36:44 +0000 <JohnnyL> ok thanks.
2020-10-23 23:36:52 +0000 <yushyin> 'same' as what?
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2020-10-23 23:37:33 +0000 <JohnnyL> yushyin: s/same/some
2020-10-23 23:37:43 +0000 <yushyin> ah
2020-10-23 23:38:16 +0000 <simon> JohnnyL, haskell for the browser: https://github.com/tweag/asterius#asterius-a-haskell-to-webassembly-compiler
2020-10-23 23:39:49 +0000 <simon> yushyin, I thought he referred to GHCJS being hard to install and based on GHC 7.x for a long time.
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2020-10-23 23:41:51 +0000 <simon> JohnnyL, apparently less mature than GHCJS, but definitely promising. :)
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2020-10-23 23:50:20 +0000 <JohnnyL> I cannot for the sake of me see the entire industry *not* going pure.
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