IRCBrowse

2021/01/28

2021-01-28 00:01:09 +0100 <texasmynsted> oh I do not yet know foldM
2021-01-28 00:01:27 +0100 <ski> @src foldM
2021-01-28 00:01:27 +0100 <lambdabot> foldM _ a [] = return a
2021-01-28 00:01:27 +0100 <lambdabot> foldM f a (x:xs) = f a x >>= \fax -> foldM f fax xs
2021-01-28 00:02:06 +0100 <ski> (it's an instance of a `foldr', but it "feels" like a `foldl', since it passes the values from left to right)
2021-01-28 00:02:50 +0100 <texasmynsted> oh nice
2021-01-28 00:04:07 +0100alx741(~alx741@186.178.110.213)
2021-01-28 00:05:47 +0100Stanley00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00)
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2021-01-28 00:08:09 +0100 <texasmynsted> thank you
2021-01-28 00:08:24 +0100catt(~r@31.124.181.226)
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2021-01-28 00:35:13 +0100ukari(~ukari@unaffiliated/ukari)
2021-01-28 00:35:32 +0100 <texasmynsted> There is no foldM1 like there is foldl1
2021-01-28 00:36:07 +0100unclechu(unclechuma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-tnclmchgsfcjvbeo)
2021-01-28 00:36:33 +0100 <texasmynsted> I guess I can check for empty list etc
2021-01-28 00:37:03 +0100 <emmanuel_erc> Axman6: Something in my program was setting my locale encoding to ASCII instead of UTF8 (the desired TextEncoding).
2021-01-28 00:37:10 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2021-01-28 00:37:22 +0100 <Axman6> huh, how fun. good work tracking that down
2021-01-28 00:37:28 +0100 <emmanuel_erc> So, the problem was rather easy to resolve. Thanks for the pointrer.
2021-01-28 00:37:35 +0100drozdziak1(~drozdziak@vps-520f86fd.vps.ovh.net) (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in)
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2021-01-28 01:50:34 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165)
2021-01-28 01:50:49 +0100 <edrx> hi! a stylistical question... what would be a good way to translate the definition of "atimes" in the natural-deduction-ish tree in this image, and in the dictionary at the lower right that defines each term, to Haskell? link to the image: https://i.ibb.co/CVHK0qp/sshot.png
2021-01-28 01:52:15 +0100 <edrx> I am trying to use "where", but the only implementation that I got that works is a bit ugly... I on't know how to declare a variable - the "ab" - that is discharged in a lambda at the end...
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2021-01-28 02:00:00 +0100 <dolio> I don't think anything good would use this many intermediate names.
2021-01-28 02:01:13 +0100 <edrx> good in what sense?
2021-01-28 02:01:13 +0100 <dolio> If you did `abtoac ab = ac` I think you'd have less of a problem with wheres, though.
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2021-01-28 02:02:50 +0100 <edrx> I thought that every "f a = b" was translated to an "f = \ a -> b"... where can I find more about that?
2021-01-28 02:03:03 +0100matryoshka(~matryoshk@2606:6080:1002:8:3285:30e:de43:8809)
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2021-01-28 02:03:14 +0100 <ski> you could use `let'
2021-01-28 02:03:39 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28 02:03:58 +0100 <Axman6> a = fst ab; b = fst ab ... why?
2021-01-28 02:04:00 +0100 <ski> find more, about what ?
2021-01-28 02:04:12 +0100 <dolio> Well, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish. But I think something that used that many intermediate names would be much less clear than e.g. the thing at the bottom of the first tree in that picture.
2021-01-28 02:04:38 +0100 <edrx> ok, let me explain what I am trying to accomplish.
2021-01-28 02:04:39 +0100 <dolio> Arguably even clearer would be `\(a,b) -> (a, f b)`
2021-01-28 02:04:47 +0100 <ski> presumably they want a location, in a standardized format, in the source, for each node in the proof tree ?
2021-01-28 02:05:26 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165)
2021-01-28 02:05:27 +0100 <Axman6> edrx: f a = b is equivalent to f = \a -> b, but you asked about style, and the former is (slightly) more common
2021-01-28 02:05:49 +0100justanotheruser(~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser)
2021-01-28 02:06:13 +0100 <Axman6> surely `b` should be `snd ab`?
2021-01-28 02:06:40 +0100 <edrx> I have some proofs on Heyting Algebras with a modal operator - the ones in page 9 here: http://angg.twu.net/LATEX/2020J-ops-new.pdf - that I want to formalize in Idris at some point. But I am trying to learn Idris and I was progressing very slowly - and I realized that it would be better to learn Haskell first...
2021-01-28 02:06:46 +0100 <Axman6> @djinn (a,b) -> (b -> c) -> (a,c)
2021-01-28 02:06:46 +0100 <lambdabot> f (a, b) c = (a, c b)
2021-01-28 02:06:58 +0100 <ski> the natural-deduction style proof trees in Agda1 used `let ndProof0 = ...; ... in inferenceRule ndProof0 ...' in the raw source (the Alfa editor displayed a prettified, two-dimensional, version)
2021-01-28 02:07:40 +0100 <ski> edrx : hm, so you're learning Haskell ? or learning how to encode ND proofs in Haskell ?
2021-01-28 02:08:10 +0100frdg(~user@pool-96-252-123-136.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
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2021-01-28 02:08:49 +0100__minoru__shiraeshiraeeshi
2021-01-28 02:08:56 +0100 <edrx> if I find a good way to translate ND trees to Haskell or Idris in way in which each conclusion becomes a line in a let or where I can treat tress as pseudocode for Haskell - and learn bit by bit how to translate new rules that are admissible mathematically
2021-01-28 02:09:21 +0100 <ski> then what ?
2021-01-28 02:09:55 +0100 <edrx> ski: I am learning Haskell and I don't know much. I learned type systems from the mathematical side - from the formal definition of the lambda-cube, even - ages ago
2021-01-28 02:10:02 +0100skinods
2021-01-28 02:10:17 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28 02:11:14 +0100 <ski> possibly the easiest way would be to have each node in the tree correspond to an expression. then you'd have \btoc -> \ab -> (fst ab,btoc (snd ab))' as your expression corresponding to the whole ND proof tree
2021-01-28 02:11:23 +0100Wuzzy(~Wuzzy@p549c93e5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Wuzzy)
2021-01-28 02:11:51 +0100 <frdg> I removed the library section of my .cabal file for my stack project. I cannot build my project and I am not sure why but the error message doesn't say much and I shouldn't have and dependencies for the project yet. This is the error and my cabal file http://dpaste.com/D2VRZXLDE
2021-01-28 02:11:51 +0100 <ski> (if you prefer, you could insert explicit names like `andIntro',`andElim0',`andElim1',`implIntro',`implElim', and use those)
2021-01-28 02:12:13 +0100 <frdg> Can I not just remove the library section?
2021-01-28 02:12:34 +0100 <ski> edrx : but perhaps you'd prefer giving a name to each node in the proof tree ? (and so probably use either `let' or `where')
2021-01-28 02:13:00 +0100 <Axman6> frdg: you've said you depend on the library "arp-spoofer" buit now you have deleted the library section there is no library named that
2021-01-28 02:13:08 +0100 <edrx> one of my excuses (?) for learning Haskell and Idris is that I am working on a way to do Category Theory diagramatically in a way that *seems* to be easy to translate to Idris, but I don't think that it's honest to say "anyone who knows Idris well can implement this in 5 minutes"
2021-01-28 02:13:18 +0100 <ski> edrx : i guess it probably does make sense to learn some basic Haskell, before attempting to learn Idris
2021-01-28 02:13:30 +0100 <frdg> Axman6: ohh I see
2021-01-28 02:13:45 +0100 <edrx> ski: that's it! my names ab, a, c, btoc, etc, were just ways to name nodes of the tree...
2021-01-28 02:13:46 +0100 <frdg> works now thanks
2021-01-28 02:14:16 +0100 <ski> edrx : and you want to have these names ? or don't care too much about having them ?
2021-01-28 02:15:17 +0100 <ski> edrx : in any case, you will most probably have to expect to use either nested `let's or nested `where's (because of implication-introduction, and other rules that add local hypotheses)
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2021-01-28 02:16:30 +0100 <ski> with nested `let's, you'd see the code for the leaves and branches before seeing the node which they connect to. while with nested `where's, it'd be the other way around, first you see the root, then it's children, and so on
2021-01-28 02:16:35 +0100 <edrx> ski: yes, I found that it's MUCH easier to start by Haskell... I am reading Hutton's book and the docs of ghc and its library. I think I was able to digest everything until applicatives - I didn't go father than that yet - and this video about the core has helped a lot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fty9QL4aSRc
2021-01-28 02:17:40 +0100 <ski> (perhaps one could do away with the nestedness, using implicit parameters ..)
2021-01-28 02:17:55 +0100 <edrx> ski: one of my attempts that worked used two nested wheres... I modified it and broke it, but let me reconstruct it and upload it to some pastebin.
2021-01-28 02:18:04 +0100 <ski> (or, i guess, explicitly passing all hypotheses to each part .. but that's a bit ugly)
2021-01-28 02:18:51 +0100 <edrx> ski: this looks interesting that the details are not clear to me yet =) let me reconstruct the this with two wheres, one sec...
2021-01-28 02:18:56 +0100 <edrx> this -> thing
2021-01-28 02:19:18 +0100 <ski> edrx : most probably the learning material for Idris already assumes that you know something like Haskell (or Clean, or one of the MLs, or Mercury, ..), and so it'd be harder to follow it for a newbie to statically typed functional programming languages
2021-01-28 02:20:24 +0100nineonine(~nineonine@50.216.62.2) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28 02:22:12 +0100jedws(~jedws@121.209.139.157)
2021-01-28 02:22:24 +0100 <ski> atimes = implI \btoc ->
2021-01-28 02:22:44 +0100 <ski> implI \ab ->
2021-01-28 02:22:54 +0100 <ski> andI
2021-01-28 02:23:13 +0100 <edrx> it does. and when we do something like ":t myexpr" in the REPL the types include obscure annotation about linear types and things like this...
2021-01-28 02:23:17 +0100 <ski> (andElim0 ab)
2021-01-28 02:23:22 +0100tzh(~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 02:23:23 +0100 <ski> (implElim
2021-01-28 02:23:32 +0100 <ski> btoc
2021-01-28 02:23:38 +0100 <ski> (andElim1 ab))
2021-01-28 02:23:49 +0100 <ski> is how it could look, with explicit inference rule names
2021-01-28 02:24:45 +0100cr3(~cr3@192-222-143-195.qc.cable.ebox.net)
2021-01-28 02:24:49 +0100 <ski> (you need to turn on the language extension `BlockArguments' .. or else replace the `\'s by `$ \'s)
2021-01-28 02:24:50 +0100jackk_(~jackk@205.178.111.134) (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com))
2021-01-28 02:25:47 +0100 <ski> edrx : hm, yea .. it's easier to grasp the basics, without more subtle/advanced complications obscuring it
2021-01-28 02:26:54 +0100metreo(Thunderbir@gateway/vpn/mullvad/metreo) (Quit: metreo)
2021-01-28 02:27:02 +0100 <ski> (btw, if you want to, you could annotate the hypotheses, like `btoc', with their types. you could also do this for each subexpression, if you want to make it directly apparent what the types are)
2021-01-28 02:27:04 +0100 <dolio> This example kind of illustrates another reason to not like old-school natural deduction without contexts.
2021-01-28 02:27:22 +0100 <edrx> ski: I just grepped recursively the ghc source to try to find implElim and friends in the libraries, but got no matches... are they standard?
2021-01-28 02:27:35 +0100 <ski> dolio : you mean Prawitz-style, as opposed to Gentzen-style ?
2021-01-28 02:27:50 +0100 <ski> edrx : no, you'd define these yourself
2021-01-28 02:28:07 +0100 <dolio> I'm not sure. I mean non-hypothetical judgments instead of hypothetical judgments.
2021-01-28 02:28:09 +0100 <edrx> ski: what is the syntax for annotating types in a where or let? sorry for my newbieshness =)
2021-01-28 02:28:32 +0100 <ski> let foo :: MyType
2021-01-28 02:28:38 +0100 <ski> foo = myExpression
2021-01-28 02:28:42 +0100 <ski> in ..foo..
2021-01-28 02:28:52 +0100 <edrx> ski: ok, let me try to start with your two lambdas and use a let or where in the rest!
2021-01-28 02:28:56 +0100 <edrx> thanks, trying!
2021-01-28 02:29:13 +0100 <ski> for lambdas, you can use `\(btoc :: b -> c) -> ..btoc..'
2021-01-28 02:29:35 +0100 <dolio> Anyhow, I'd never seen a proof where it looked like there were two places where `ab : A×B` is introduced, but it actually doesn't work that way.
2021-01-28 02:29:39 +0100 <ski> (but i think you need to turn on `ScopedTypeVariables', and put a type signature on your main definition, with explicit `forall's)
2021-01-28 02:30:06 +0100 <dolio> And you need to label them to keep track.
2021-01-28 02:30:29 +0100conal(~conal@66.115.157.10) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28 02:30:32 +0100 <ski> dolio : by "non-hypothetical judgments", you mean like ⌜Γ ⊢ e : τ⌝, yes ?
2021-01-28 02:30:41 +0100 <dolio> No, that is a hypothetical one.
2021-01-28 02:30:51 +0100 <ski> ah
2021-01-28 02:31:33 +0100 <dolio> Non-hypothetical is `e : τ` and you have the `[x : A]` at leaves in the tree.
2021-01-28 02:32:19 +0100 <frdg> I learned that `l(a) = 1 + a l(a)` can be translated into `data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a)`. So this is why they are called algebraic data types? There must be a whole class of mathematical equations that can be encoded into types then right.
2021-01-28 02:32:29 +0100deviantfero(~deviantfe@190.150.27.58) (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-28 02:32:46 +0100 <ski> dolio : i was thinking ⌜implI : ((⊢ x : σ) → (⊢ f x : τ)) → (⊢ λ f : σ ⇒ τ)⌝ was what you meant by "hypothetical judgments" .. but evidently not
2021-01-28 02:33:28 +0100 <dolio> I guess that's another meaning, yeah. I don't know what to call the other one, then.
2021-01-28 02:33:36 +0100 <dolio> Contextual judgments?
2021-01-28 02:34:54 +0100 <ski> the last ⌜implI⌝ would be to encode Prawitz-style ND .. and i guess it'd encode that, using HOAS in the meta-language
2021-01-28 02:35:14 +0100justsomeguy(~justsomeg@unaffiliated/--/x-3805311) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
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2021-01-28 02:36:46 +0100 <edrx> ski: first attempt, using "where"s: https://0x0.st/--gQ.txt - ghci says that ab is not known. lte me try with lets.
2021-01-28 02:37:00 +0100 <ski> frdg : yes, that's one reason
2021-01-28 02:37:01 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:815b:63cc:1253:feb)
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2021-01-28 02:37:46 +0100 <ski> edrx : with lambdas, you need to use `let' (or maybe implicit parameters ..). to use `where', move the lambda parameters over to the left of the `='s
2021-01-28 02:38:35 +0100 <ski> dolio : not really following what you meant by "Anyhow, I'd never seen a proof where ..","And you need to label them to keep track." ..
2021-01-28 02:39:26 +0100 <ski> anyway, what you called Non-hypothetical is Prawitz-style, and what you called hypothetical is Gentzen-style
2021-01-28 02:39:37 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 02:39:49 +0100 <ski> (at least i think so)
2021-01-28 02:39:51 +0100 <edrx> ski: works!!! https://0x0.st/--ge.txt =)
2021-01-28 02:40:27 +0100 <ski> edrx : if you want to, you could define `a' and `c' locally to `ac', and `b' locally to `c'
2021-01-28 02:40:45 +0100 <ski> (would make the nesting in the source correspond more directly to the nesting in the proof tree)
2021-01-28 02:40:58 +0100frdg(~user@pool-96-252-123-136.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) ("ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)")
2021-01-28 02:42:36 +0100 <ski> dolio : also, is "not like old-school natural deduction without contexts" to be parsed as "not like (old-school natural deduction without contexts)", or like "(not like old-school natural deduction) without contexts" ?
2021-01-28 02:43:56 +0100 <ski> edrx : anyway, you could add type signatures also for the local definitions inside the `where's (but you'll need `ScopedTypeVariables', and to replace the top signature by `atimes :: forall a b c. (b -> c) -> ((a,b) -> (a,c))')
2021-01-28 02:44:53 +0100 <ski> edrx : anyway, you can define `andIntro = (,)',`andElim0 = fst',..,`implIntro = id',`implElim = ($)',..
2021-01-28 02:45:25 +0100justanotheruser(~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28 02:45:51 +0100conal(~conal@66.115.157.10)
2021-01-28 02:46:26 +0100 <ski> you could say `type Proof a = a',`type And a b = (a,b)',`type Impl a b = a -> b', and then `andIntro :: Proof a -> Proof b -> Proof (And a b)',`implIntro :: (Proof a -> Proof b) -> Proof (Impl a b)',...
2021-01-28 02:46:53 +0100 <edrx> ski: I'm saving that to look later!!! I took a break from working on slides for a presentation to see if could translate that tree to Haskell with some help...
2021-01-28 02:47:17 +0100 <ski> (makes it a little bit clearer to distinguish between object-language connectives, and meta-language ones, if that's what you want to do)
2021-01-28 02:48:03 +0100 <ski> you could even make a GADT, i suppose, to represent ND proofs .. but that's a bit more advanced
2021-01-28 02:48:16 +0100 <edrx> what is a GADT?
2021-01-28 02:48:26 +0100 <ski> Generalized Algebraic Data Type
2021-01-28 02:48:34 +0100 <ski> (it's not a good name, but we're stuck with it)
2021-01-28 02:48:39 +0100 <edrx> aaah, ok. yes, that's for later.
2021-01-28 02:48:53 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 02:48:55 +0100 <edrx> I've seen that term several times but I didn't know what it meant
2021-01-28 02:48:57 +0100 <ski> something like
2021-01-28 02:49:02 +0100 <ski> data Proof a
2021-01-28 02:49:04 +0100 <ski> where
2021-01-28 02:49:09 +0100tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2021-01-28 02:49:15 +0100 <ski> AndIntro :: Proof a -> Proof b -> Proof (And a b)
2021-01-28 02:49:31 +0100 <ski> ImplIntro :: (Proof a -> Proof b) -> Proof (Impl a b)
2021-01-28 02:49:43 +0100berberman(~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-28 02:49:43 +0100 <ski> ImplElim :: Proof (Impl a b) -> Proof a -> Proof b
2021-01-28 02:50:04 +0100berberman(~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman)
2021-01-28 02:50:16 +0100 <ski> (so, now you couldn't forget to use an explicit inference rule name)
2021-01-28 02:50:38 +0100berberman(~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman) (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-28 02:50:52 +0100 <ski> edrx : in dependently typed languages, there's indexed data type families, which're close
2021-01-28 02:51:08 +0100berberman(~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman)
2021-01-28 02:51:27 +0100drbean(~drbean@TC210-63-209-178.static.apol.com.tw)
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2021-01-28 03:00:15 +0100ski. o O ( "Free variables are not “implicitly universally quantified”!" by Andrej Bauer in 2012-12-25 at <http://math.andrej.com/2012/12/25/free-variables-are-not-implicitly-universally-quantified/> )
2021-01-28 03:01:04 +0100fosterite(~fosterite@2600:6c46:7800:fecf:e869:5767:13bd:38f6)
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2021-01-28 03:05:06 +0100 <mniip> what irks me is that we've come up with ways to "model" formal systems in various categories
2021-01-28 03:05:19 +0100 <mniip> and we kind of implicitly assume there is a unique canonical way to do so
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2021-01-28 03:32:36 +0100conal_(~conal@66.115.157.76)
2021-01-28 03:32:39 +0100 <Feuermagier_> I have a "newtype Graph n = Graph [Node n]" - if I have a function returns a graph, how can I deconstruct it to get the internal nodelist?
2021-01-28 03:33:02 +0100conal(~conal@66.115.157.10) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28 03:33:11 +0100 <EvanR> you can use pattern matching
2021-01-28 03:33:25 +0100 <ski> Feuermagier_ : use pattern-matching
2021-01-28 03:33:32 +0100conal_(~conal@66.115.157.76) (Client Quit)
2021-01-28 03:33:48 +0100 <ski> Graph nodes = myGraph
2021-01-28 03:34:00 +0100Zialus(~RMF@199.125.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
2021-01-28 03:34:15 +0100conal(~conal@66.115.157.76)
2021-01-28 03:34:25 +0100 <Feuermagier_> specifically i'm trying to build a new graph: Graph (currentnode : (addNode n (Graph xs)))
2021-01-28 03:34:32 +0100 <ski> inside a `let' or `where', or in a parameter in a function definition (possibly a lambda expression). or use `case myGraph of Graph nodes -> ..nodes..'
2021-01-28 03:34:37 +0100 <Feuermagier_> addNode does however return a graph
2021-01-28 03:34:55 +0100 <ski> you can define an extractor function, if you want to
2021-01-28 03:34:58 +0100 <Feuermagier_> ski, ah, i'll try with a where
2021-01-28 03:35:12 +0100 <ski> getNodes (Graph nodes) = nodes
2021-01-28 03:35:31 +0100 <ski> if you define `newtype Graph n = Graph {getNodes :: [Node n]}', you get that automatically
2021-01-28 03:35:43 +0100niekvandepas(~niekvande@dhcp-077-249-088-250.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 03:35:55 +0100 <Feuermagier_> got it
2021-01-28 03:36:00 +0100 <Feuermagier_> thx
2021-01-28 03:36:32 +0100 <ski> (btw, the intermediate brackets in `Graph (currentnode : (addNode n (Graph xs)))' are redundant)
2021-01-28 03:36:33 +0100 <EvanR> you can define a set of operations for your type, extract the nodes, add a node, etc
2021-01-28 03:36:58 +0100 <Feuermagier_> EvanR, doing that atm
2021-01-28 03:37:10 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-01-28 03:37:19 +0100 <ski> do you want/need to be able to operate on lists of nodes, separately from graphs ?
2021-01-28 03:37:39 +0100 <ski> if not, you could modify your functions that operate on lists of nodes, to instead operate on graphs
2021-01-28 03:37:50 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:53db:3900:3a5d:5c7b:c52d:348a) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28 03:38:31 +0100 <Feuermagier_> ski, I'm currently implementing the internal graphworks. deconstructing the graph worked perfectly
2021-01-28 03:38:39 +0100 <ski> ok
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2021-01-28 03:39:58 +0100 <ski> when you already have an expression of your data type, it can sometimes be annoying to have to circumlocate by adding a `let' or `where' binding, giving the innards a name. that's when something like `getNodes' may be preferable
2021-01-28 03:40:46 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165)
2021-01-28 03:40:46 +0100 <ski> (if you're doing a recursive function, it may be better to let a local worker function operate directly on the innards, to avoid excessive wrapping and unwrapping)
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2021-01-28 06:04:56 +0100 <Guest9360> :t zip
2021-01-28 06:04:57 +0100 <lambdabot> [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
2021-01-28 06:05:34 +0100 <Guest9360> :t curry
2021-01-28 06:05:35 +0100ixaxaar(~ixaxaar@49.207.210.215)
2021-01-28 06:05:35 +0100 <lambdabot> ((a, b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c
2021-01-28 06:05:41 +0100drbean(~drbean@TC210-63-209-17.static.apol.com.tw) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28 06:06:13 +0100 <inkbottle> Can we say that functions cannot be statically analyzed when inductive data type values can? Would that remotely make sense?
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2021-01-28 06:13:38 +0100 <inkbottle> What makes me say that is `m >>= \x -> m'` versus `f <*> x`, the applicative form is supposed to be statically analyzable. The monadic form is said not to be analyzable, and the RHS is under a function.
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2021-01-28 06:38:16 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165)
2021-01-28 06:38:35 +0100 <glguy> inkbottle, your "Can we say that..." statement doesn't make much sense to me. I think I understand where you're going with the second statement: we have no hope of dynamically inspecting the implementation of a function, we can only apply it to things and see what happens. As far as Applicative being somehow more static, remember that f and x in your example can be recursively defined and infinitely expandable
2021-01-28 06:39:16 +0100 <dolio> They could be functions.
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2021-01-28 06:41:44 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28 06:42:03 +0100 <glguy> <*> has the potential to be more "inspectable" than >>= given >>='s required use of a function
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2021-01-28 06:42:36 +0100 <dolio> (>>=) doesn't need to be involved, though (in principle).
2021-01-28 06:42:36 +0100nhs(~nhs@c-24-20-87-79.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 06:43:39 +0100elliott__(~elliott@pool-108-51-101-42.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28 06:43:43 +0100 <dolio> It could be `m (m a) -> m a`
2021-01-28 06:44:09 +0100 <glguy> In that case aren't you going to drag fmap into the mix
2021-01-28 06:44:14 +0100 <glguy> and functions are back in play?
2021-01-28 06:44:31 +0100MrCue(~Mr._Cue@pengyuzhou.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28 06:44:52 +0100 <glguy> or are you saying if you limit yourself to join to get back to something potentially more "inspectable"? (if we can agree on what that word means)
2021-01-28 06:45:18 +0100 <dolio> No, the point is that 'join' does not lead to what people consider 'inspectable'.
2021-01-28 06:45:43 +0100 <dolio> But it is having nested ms that causes it, not functions.
2021-01-28 06:45:48 +0100 <glguy> Oh, so the point is that we can eliminate functions from the mix altogether
2021-01-28 06:46:10 +0100 <glguy> and keep the same statements
2021-01-28 06:46:14 +0100 <dolio> When you have two fs for an applicative, they are combined with a cartesian product, not nesting.
2021-01-28 06:47:03 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2021-01-28 06:47:21 +0100Mr_Cue(~Mr._Cue@pengyuzhou.com)
2021-01-28 06:47:38 +0100 <dolio> And if you have a cartesian product of monad things, to achieve the same thing via join, you have to put one inside the other, and that is somehow 'not inspectable'.
2021-01-28 06:47:51 +0100benjamin-l(~benjamin@2601:1c0:8800:67e0:fa16:54ff:febc:2e60)
2021-01-28 06:49:09 +0100 <dolio> But yeah, I'm saying it's not really about not being able to inspect functions.
2021-01-28 06:51:48 +0100dnlkrgr(~dnlkrgr@HSI-KBW-046-005-005-235.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de)
2021-01-28 06:54:06 +0100 <dolio> If you imagine it for trees, then when you do `ap`, you've duplicated the second thing at the leaves of the first thing, so you can't inspect the second thing without walking down the first thing (and you've thrown away the information that the leaves are duplicates).
2021-01-28 06:54:58 +0100benjamin-l(~benjamin@2601:1c0:8800:67e0:fa16:54ff:febc:2e60) (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-28 06:55:09 +0100 <dolio> Of course, the applicative behavior for trees is the same thing.
2021-01-28 06:56:28 +0100jedws(~jedws@121.209.139.157)
2021-01-28 06:57:02 +0100Tario(~Tario@201.192.165.173) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28 06:57:03 +0100 <dolio> Maybe I'd say a better statement is that certain sorts of static analysis require you to maintain that flat structure for observation, and thus they cannot support monad.
2021-01-28 06:57:18 +0100 <dolio> Because flat means you can't nest.
2021-01-28 06:58:42 +0100 <glguy> I'm less sure what sense we mean static now
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2021-01-28 07:43:19 +0100 <olligobber> Anyone got advice on type level natural numbers in haskell? I've found GHC.TypeNats, but it doesn't let me do stuff like 1 :: Nat
2021-01-28 07:45:38 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2021-01-28 07:47:14 +0100jfe`(~user@pool-71-184-149-134.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2021-01-28 07:47:41 +0100Geekingfrog_Geekingfrog
2021-01-28 07:47:58 +0100shiraeeshi(~shiraeesh@77.94.25.134) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28 07:47:59 +0100 <olligobber> I want to generalise these types (and maybe values in those types) for arbitrary naturals, not just for the first 4 like I have now: https://github.com/olligobber/IotaBF/blob/8e830b8ad6914f8807cb0057d1c145ddc018081a/Functional/Lamb…
2021-01-28 07:48:39 +0100hexagoxe-(~hexagoxel@2a01:4f8:c0c:e::2)
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2021-01-28 07:50:04 +0100 <nshepperd> that would work, you just need DataKinds turned on
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2021-01-28 07:50:50 +0100Arahael(~arahael@61.68.77.119)
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2021-01-28 07:51:07 +0100 <texasmynsted> Okay I looked at foldM
2021-01-28 07:51:57 +0100 <texasmynsted> what am I not seeing? My 'tsDefaultCompiler' is clearly wrong. https://gist.github.com/mmynsted/40d0d88d7fc67b69e1790c11aa95402e#gistcomment-3610646
2021-01-28 07:52:43 +0100 <olligobber> nshepperd, I turned on DataKinds but still can't do 1 :: Nat, is there something I'm missing?
2021-01-28 07:53:34 +0100 <olligobber> btw that link I posted just moved to https://github.com/olligobber/IotaBF/blob/f6bb9b9dd8a4f46d6ddba6f5ee3c300ead08151d/Functional/Lamb…
2021-01-28 07:53:35 +0100 <texasmynsted> I need to keep binding the loadAndAppplyTemplate to the accumulator
2021-01-28 07:57:00 +0100 <texasmynsted> maybe I just need to call it a night
2021-01-28 07:57:31 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 08:00:36 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165)
2021-01-28 08:02:30 +0100 <nshepperd> olligobber: what exactly does 'can't do' mean? what did you write and what error do you get?
2021-01-28 08:03:40 +0100tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 08:04:56 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28 08:05:25 +0100 <olligobber> nshepperd, https://gist.github.com/olligobber/2c44f5f9b7846d914b34c361e3dd958a
2021-01-28 08:06:22 +0100Boomerang(~Boomerang@2a05:f6c7:2179:0:5976:80b4:6657:63a8)
2021-01-28 08:06:28 +0100 <nshepperd> if you just write it at the repl it will be interpreted as a term, not a type
2021-01-28 08:06:58 +0100 <nshepperd> try :kind 1 :: Nat
2021-01-28 08:07:32 +0100 <olligobber> ah, thanks!
2021-01-28 08:08:13 +0100sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937)
2021-01-28 08:09:17 +0100coot(~coot@37.30.55.132.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
2021-01-28 08:11:11 +0100Rudd0(~Rudd0@185.189.115.103) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 08:12:09 +0100jamm_(~jamm@unaffiliated/jamm)
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2021-01-28 08:13:22 +0100 <texasmynsted> any suggestions for me on the foldM?
2021-01-28 08:15:09 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165)
2021-01-28 08:15:26 +0100nineonine(~nineonine@50.216.62.2)
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2021-01-28 08:17:01 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 08:20:15 +0100nineonine(~nineonine@50.216.62.2) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 08:20:30 +0100_ht(~quassel@82-169-194-8.biz.kpn.net)
2021-01-28 08:21:53 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 08:22:17 +0100Graf_Blutwurst(~grafblutw@2001:171b:226e:adc0:68cc:bd3d:def0:5db2)
2021-01-28 08:22:24 +0100 <dibblego> what about it?
2021-01-28 08:22:56 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 08:23:27 +0100vikid(~vikid@bba428846.alshamil.net.ae)
2021-01-28 08:26:01 +0100 <texasmynsted> howdy dibblego
2021-01-28 08:26:36 +0100 <texasmynsted> I am being especially dense today/tonight
2021-01-28 08:26:48 +0100 <texasmynsted> https://gist.github.com/mmynsted/40d0d88d7fc67b69e1790c11aa95402e
2021-01-28 08:27:13 +0100forgottenone(~forgotten@176.42.21.112)
2021-01-28 08:27:30 +0100 <dibblego> is it not compiling?
2021-01-28 08:27:47 +0100 <texasmynsted> I am trying to apply multiple Identifier/Strings to 'loadAndApplyTemplate'
2021-01-28 08:27:59 +0100ArConan(9de62a69@157.230.42.105)
2021-01-28 08:28:03 +0100 <texasmynsted> No compile. I will show error
2021-01-28 08:28:39 +0100tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2021-01-28 08:29:44 +0100 <texasmynsted> oops
2021-01-28 08:30:17 +0100 <texasmynsted> This is a different error than what I thought I had
2021-01-28 08:32:16 +0100Sgeo_(~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28 08:32:40 +0100jpds(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 08:33:01 +0100jpds(~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds)
2021-01-28 08:34:11 +0100coot(~coot@37.30.55.132.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Quit: coot)
2021-01-28 08:36:18 +0100 <texasmynsted> If I remove the bind to the accumulator, or what I _think_ is the accumulator, then it compiles but always produces an empty.
2021-01-28 08:37:09 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:520f:a600:3f55:41d8:2c0b:4a4c) (Quit: xff0x)
2021-01-28 08:37:14 +0100jluttine(~jluttine@87-95-146-110.bb.dnainternet.fi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28 08:37:48 +0100 <texasmynsted> I now am wondering if it just gives up trying to use the empty since it would process the empty first and move from left to right through the list of Identifier strings.
2021-01-28 08:38:23 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-01-28 08:38:46 +0100jluttine(~jluttine@85-23-95-149.bb.dnainternet.fi)
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2021-01-28 08:44:11 +0100hahawang(~Srain@222.90.67.220)
2021-01-28 08:44:40 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:520f:a600:d38d:1006:b49a:2688)
2021-01-28 08:46:00 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@unaffiliated/cfricke)
2021-01-28 08:47:09 +0100niekvandepas(~niekvande@dhcp-077-249-088-250.chello.nl)
2021-01-28 08:48:02 +0100syd(~syd@cpc91646-hart11-2-0-cust432.11-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28 08:50:34 +0100tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 08:51:06 +0100tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2021-01-28 08:52:03 +0100syd(~syd@cpc91646-hart11-2-0-cust432.11-3.cable.virginm.net)
2021-01-28 08:52:52 +0100 <texasmynsted> in any case, what's new with you?
2021-01-28 08:53:36 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@unaffiliated/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-28 08:53:50 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@unaffiliated/cfricke)
2021-01-28 08:55:27 +0100jedws(~jedws@121.209.139.157) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-28 08:56:17 +0100mananamenos(~mananamen@84.122.202.215.dyn.user.ono.com)
2021-01-28 09:00:32 +0100syd(~syd@cpc91646-hart11-2-0-cust432.11-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 09:00:42 +0100chele(~chele@ip5b40237d.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2021-01-28 09:03:00 +0100dhouthoo(~dhouthoo@ptr-eitgbj2w0uu6delkbrh.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2021-01-28 09:03:20 +0100Major_Biscuit(~Major_Bis@82-169-100-198.biz.kpn.net)
2021-01-28 09:04:16 +0100 <texasmynsted> Oh well. Catch you later.
2021-01-28 09:06:38 +0100revprez_1nzio(~revprez_a@pool-108-49-213-40.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2021-01-28 09:09:54 +0100thc202(~thc202@unaffiliated/thc202)
2021-01-28 09:11:12 +0100 <desophos> hi, i'm sure there's a better way to do this but i don't know what it is. i think this is a "when all you have is an `fmap`, everything looks like an `(a -> b) -> f a -> f b`" situation. specifically, if i'm passing a `Gen [[PlayerState]]` to `playGame`, is there a less clumsy way to end up with a Gen [Int]? https://gist.github.com/desophos/edb68029593cd74f590a7a42f311d345
2021-01-28 09:12:27 +0100 <desophos> thanks in advance! also, i'm a beginner, please be kind :)
2021-01-28 09:12:55 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28 09:13:58 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-01-28 09:16:10 +0100coot(~coot@37.30.55.132.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
2021-01-28 09:16:21 +0100 <c_wraith> fmap looks right there, assuming you have a function of type [[PlayerState]] -> Int
2021-01-28 09:16:25 +0100 <c_wraith> err, [Int]
2021-01-28 09:16:32 +0100 <SIben> desophos: I am not an expert either, but it seems canonical to me if Gen is a functor :)
2021-01-28 09:18:03 +0100 <SIben> Maybe you would feel it looks better using infix notation? Like "fmap f players" => "f <$> players"?
2021-01-28 09:18:13 +0100 <c_wraith> There are other possibilities, though
2021-01-28 09:18:21 +0100 <ArConan> @src read
2021-01-28 09:18:21 +0100 <lambdabot> read s = either error id (readEither s)
2021-01-28 09:18:23 +0100 <desophos> the temporary intermediate function is what feels awkward to me
2021-01-28 09:19:02 +0100 <c_wraith> does the temporary intermediate value in 2 * 3 + 1 feel weird to you?
2021-01-28 09:19:25 +0100 <desophos> haha, i guess not
2021-01-28 09:19:48 +0100 <c_wraith> functions are values. They can be temporary intermediate values, too :)
2021-01-28 09:19:57 +0100niekvandepas(~niekvande@dhcp-077-249-088-250.chello.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 09:20:09 +0100totoro2022(~t@unaffiliated/totoro2021) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28 09:20:29 +0100 <c_wraith> (Note that GHC often will skip that representation if it can see it's only used once...)
2021-01-28 09:20:31 +0100niekvandepas(~niekvande@dhcp-077-249-088-250.chello.nl)
2021-01-28 09:21:10 +0100 <desophos> ideally i would have `players` as the last argument so i could curry playGame like `playGame dilemma 3 <$> players`, which i think would work?
2021-01-28 09:21:30 +0100 <c_wraith> yep, that seems idiomatic
2021-01-28 09:21:51 +0100totoro2022(~t@unaffiliated/totoro2021)
2021-01-28 09:21:55 +0100 <desophos> that's what i want haha, i guess i just need to change the argument order
2021-01-28 09:24:36 +0100 <desophos> yes that satisfied me, thank you
2021-01-28 09:25:27 +0100coot(~coot@37.30.55.132.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Quit: coot)
2021-01-28 09:26:33 +0100nineonine(~nineonine@50.216.62.2)
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2021-01-28 09:27:31 +0100kritzefitz(~kritzefit@fw-front.credativ.com)
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2021-01-28 09:28:23 +0100 <SIben> I am trying to use DuplicateRecordFields & OverloadedLabels and running into a compilation error when trying to define an instance HasField x r a => IsLabel x (r -> a). Example gist is here: https://gist.github.com/bchetioui/44731bc0e4c0ce6c117ffa18c1c4890b. Could anyone help diagnose/fix? :)
2021-01-28 09:30:39 +0100ph88^(~ph88@2a02:8109:9e00:7e5c:6c28:450f:9830:3db8)
2021-01-28 09:32:13 +0100nineonine(~nineonine@50.216.62.2) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28 09:33:03 +0100 <lortabac> SIben: I guess you need to give it the field symbol (getField @x)
2021-01-28 09:34:39 +0100 <lortabac> the type of getField is ambiguous, you always need to pass the field name
2021-01-28 09:35:16 +0100ArConan(9de62a69@157.230.42.105) (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-28 09:35:36 +0100ArConan(9de62a69@157.230.42.105)
2021-01-28 09:36:18 +0100ericsagn1(~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:befe:a59d:a937:2991) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28 09:40:21 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 09:41:48 +0100knupfer(~Thunderbi@200116b82c7e6d00ed496df8b9d21d50.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2021-01-28 09:42:02 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2021-01-28 09:42:42 +0100 <SIben> lortabac: hm I can not seem to get it to work like so; I am not super familiar with the label syntax, maybe I need to go back to the documentation :) Thank you
2021-01-28 09:43:10 +0100 <lortabac> SIben: have you enabled TypeApplications?
2021-01-28 09:44:05 +0100 <lortabac> you need the TypeApplications extension to use the @x syntax
2021-01-28 09:44:05 +0100Narinas(~Narinas@189.223.62.254.dsl.dyn.telnor.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28 09:44:13 +0100 <SIben> I tried; fromLabel = getField @x then results in error: Not in scope: type variable ‘x’
2021-01-28 09:44:18 +0100Narinas(~Narinas@189.223.62.254.dsl.dyn.telnor.net)
2021-01-28 09:44:24 +0100 <lortabac> oh you also need ScopedTypeVariables
2021-01-28 09:44:41 +0100 <merijn> Now you need ScopedTypeVariables and quickly you'll be wondering why you're making your own life so hard :p
2021-01-28 09:44:49 +0100 <SIben> Oh, now that works :))
2021-01-28 09:45:07 +0100 <SIben> merijn: I already was, but gotta solve the problem to move on :)
2021-01-28 09:45:09 +0100 <lortabac> yes I agree with merijn, personally I would avoid this instance
2021-01-28 09:45:10 +0100 <SIben> Thanks lortabac!
2021-01-28 09:46:11 +0100conal_(~conal@192.145.117.129) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2021-01-28 09:46:36 +0100 <SIben> The cost of adding syntactic sugar seems to become very expensive very quick :)
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2021-01-28 09:47:34 +0100 <lortabac> also, keep in mind that you are defining an IsLabel instance for all functions
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2021-01-28 10:48:35 +0100 <tatooine-sunset> hi! i've recently read an article which explained free monads and showed how they can be used for dependency injection. i'm an oo programmer and i know very little haskell but my mind was blown when i understood that the author was building an ast that could be interpreted in different ways. i've heard something similar about io in haskell a while ago (building an ast which is then interpreted by
2021-01-28 10:48:41 +0100 <tatooine-sunset> the runtime). is this the same idea? does haskell handle io like that? is this why it can remain entirely pure (if we assume the interpreter is not part of the language)?
2021-01-28 10:49:25 +0100 <merijn> tatooine-sunset: "Does haskell handle IO like that?" <- well, that depends
2021-01-28 10:49:50 +0100 <merijn> tatooine-sunset: There are two separate things: 1) "what does IO *mean*?" and 2) "how is IO actually implemented?"
2021-01-28 10:50:31 +0100jedws(~jedws@121.209.139.157)
2021-01-28 10:50:49 +0100jamm_(~jamm@unaffiliated/jamm)
2021-01-28 10:51:39 +0100 <merijn> tatooine-sunset: The semantics (i.e. what does code mean) are indeed like "we separate execution of IO from evaluation of code so we have pure code constructing big IO abstractions to execute"
2021-01-28 10:51:39 +0100jedws(~jedws@121.209.139.157) (Client Quit)
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2021-01-28 10:52:36 +0100 <merijn> tatooine-sunset: But that's a stupid way to implement things, the implementation only has to make sure that whatever it does has the same *behaviour* as what is meant
2021-01-28 10:53:44 +0100 <lortabac> IIRC Stephen Diehl's "Write you a Haskell" tutorial actually implements it that way
2021-01-28 10:53:54 +0100 <ephemient> if we ignore unsafePerformIO, yes you can imagine that the only thing that can evaluate IO is the runtime starting from `main`
2021-01-28 10:54:09 +0100 <lortabac> but it's for educational purposes
2021-01-28 10:55:08 +0100kuribas(~user@ptr-25vy0i8e75wmxgu7azj.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2021-01-28 10:55:40 +0100 <tatooine-sunset> ok, so if i understand correctly, the code describes building the ast but for performance reasons it is implemented in a different way while preserving the semantics of the original code
2021-01-28 10:55:53 +0100 <merijn> tatooine-sunset: I mean, that's all a compiler is ;)
2021-01-28 10:56:12 +0100 <merijn> tatooine-sunset: A program that translates code into something else, while preserving the semantics of the original code
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2021-01-28 10:56:29 +0100 <tatooine-sunset> merijn: fair enough :)
2021-01-28 10:56:37 +0100Narinas(~Narinas@189.223.62.254.dsl.dyn.telnor.net)
2021-01-28 10:56:49 +0100 <merijn> If you compile C you don't care if functions are done via call/ret or vectorised away, as long as you get the same result as what you wrote
2021-01-28 10:57:06 +0100tzlil(~tzlil@unaffiliated/tzlil)
2021-01-28 10:57:49 +0100 <merijn> tatooine-sunset: Same goes for IO. In reality the generated code will interleave evaluation and execution of IO, but as long as that interleaving doesn't have a different result you can think of your logic in terms of "using pure code to compose a huge IO action"
2021-01-28 10:59:00 +0100 <kuribas> And that's where C sucks, because it pretends to be like the low level model, but then still the compiler needs to translate to something else.
2021-01-28 10:59:52 +0100 <merijn> kuribas: It doesn't even pretend to be like the low level model :p
2021-01-28 10:59:58 +0100 <merijn> Unless you still have a PDP-11 :p
2021-01-28 11:00:18 +0100 <tatooine-sunset> thank you, this was very helpful
2021-01-28 11:01:03 +0100 <merijn> tatooine-sunset: If you're interested in "how does the implementation actually work" the "Lazy Functional State Threads" paper covers both IO and ST
2021-01-28 11:01:16 +0100 <merijn> https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.45.3718&rep=rep1&type=pdf
2021-01-28 11:01:38 +0100 <merijn> But note that will not (directly) help you write code in a sensible way :p
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2021-01-28 11:36:11 +0100 <tribly> i'm trying to build https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pappy-0.1.0.2/reports/2 with stack, but i'm not really sure on how to do it. i've tried running "stack install --compiler=ghc-7.8.4 pappy" but it fails(?) with https://p.tribly.de/KbBU32/
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2021-01-28 11:38:07 +0100 <merijn> tribly: Looks like your version of stack doesn't support ghc 7.8
2021-01-28 11:38:46 +0100johnw(~johnw@haskell/developer/johnw)
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2021-01-28 11:59:03 +0100 <tribly> ah, i figured it out
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2021-01-28 12:02:22 +0100 <miguel_clean> I am using Network.HTTP.Client's managerModifyResponse hook. I would like to have the logic dependant on the Request URL this Response is related to but I can not find it anywhere in the strucutres passed to my hook. Any suggestions please?
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2021-01-28 13:15:47 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-01-28 13:16:12 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
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2021-01-28 13:17:15 +0100jedws(~jedws@121.209.139.157)
2021-01-28 13:17:34 +0100 <olligobber> I tried implementing the types dependent on the Nat kind, and it seems to work, just not sure what I'm doing is the best way: https://github.com/olligobber/IotaBF/blob/7e584c22f33d33b5d9c3cf5b00e4ecec97cb74d6/Functional/Lamb…
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2021-01-28 13:21:17 +0100timCF(~i.tkachuk@m91-129-101-103.cust.tele2.ee)
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2021-01-28 13:23:47 +0100timCF(~i.tkachuk@m91-129-101-103.cust.tele2.ee)
2021-01-28 13:25:15 +0100_bin(~bin@2600:1700:10a1:38d0:48c6:7ef4:249:254a)
2021-01-28 13:25:40 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:54b6:e8d3:c70d:8881)
2021-01-28 13:27:21 +0100 <olligobber> hmm, making the type family injective is hard...
2021-01-28 13:27:50 +0100 <timCF> Hello, haskellers :) Any `Async` library users there? I'm looking for technique how I can reliably terminate all linked child async processes. Let's say I have process A which spawns and links async process B, which spawns and links async process C. Seems like if I apply `cancel` to A, cancellation is not propagated to B and C. How I can fix this?
2021-01-28 13:28:26 +0100borne(~fritjof@2a06:8782:ffbb:1337:fc0d:9af0:22aa:9270) (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-28 13:28:32 +0100hekkaidekapus}(~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-28 13:29:01 +0100ADG1089__(~aditya@223.236.187.18) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 13:29:16 +0100 <merijn> timCF: use withAsync?
2021-01-28 13:29:45 +0100 <olligobber> hmm, using Data.Type.Boo.If didn't help haskell think it's injective..
2021-01-28 13:29:55 +0100hekkaidekapus}(~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus)
2021-01-28 13:30:30 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 13:30:33 +0100 <merijn> timCF: link only causes child exceptions to come to the linking thread, not vice versa
2021-01-28 13:30:38 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:54b6:e8d3:c70d:8881) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28 13:30:48 +0100 <merijn> timCF: withAsync causes children to get killed when you exit the bracket
2021-01-28 13:30:57 +0100 <merijn> So combining both gets you what you want
2021-01-28 13:30:59 +0100jedws(~jedws@121.209.139.157) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-28 13:32:07 +0100qwertyuiop(5b816567@m91-129-101-103.cust.tele2.ee)
2021-01-28 13:32:24 +0100borne(~fritjof@200116b8641b4900438d15c340c1e8fe.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2021-01-28 13:32:32 +0100User670(ca423cb5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.202.66.60.181)
2021-01-28 13:33:04 +0100 <User670> Hi. I'd like to install Haskell using a standalone installer (I don't want to use a package manager), can I do that? Win 10 x64
2021-01-28 13:35:03 +0100 <timCF> Thanks @merijn, I'll take a look. Being Erlang developer in the past, I'm keeping to follow Erlang architecture patterns even in Haskell, haha)
2021-01-28 13:35:26 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28 13:36:34 +0100 <idnar> timCF: use linkOnly; link specifically ignores cancellation
2021-01-28 13:37:07 +0100 <olligobber> hmm, anyone know how I can take in some n :: Nat (using GHC.TypeNats) and produce a value of type TypedInput n t? If I try `(n :: Nat) -> TypedInput n t' I get an error about n having kind Nat instead of Type...
2021-01-28 13:37:33 +0100__monty__(~toonn@unaffiliated/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-28 13:37:43 +0100 <merijn> idnar: Only in the child
2021-01-28 13:37:51 +0100 <merijn> idnar: Which is almost certainly what you want
2021-01-28 13:38:12 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: Haskell doesn't have dependent types
2021-01-28 13:38:26 +0100 <lortabac> you have to emulate them with GADTs (singletons)
2021-01-28 13:38:58 +0100 <User670> Hm, hello? I'd like to install Haskell on Windows without using a package manager; is it possible?
2021-01-28 13:39:24 +0100 <merijn> User670: Short answer: Not really
2021-01-28 13:39:40 +0100Major_Biscuit(~Major_Bis@82-169-100-198.biz.kpn.net)
2021-01-28 13:42:19 +0100dexterlb(~dexterlb@2a01:9e40:2:2::2) (Quit: Boing)
2021-01-28 13:42:49 +0100 <olligobber> I tried looking up GADTs but I don't get it
2021-01-28 13:42:56 +0100 <olligobber> is there an article you recommend?
2021-01-28 13:43:08 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: that said, if n is known statically you can just do (Proxy :: Proxy n) -> TypedInput n t
2021-01-28 13:43:20 +0100 <olligobber> it is
2021-01-28 13:43:37 +0100 <lortabac> then you probably don't need singletons
2021-01-28 13:43:52 +0100m0rphism1(~m0rphism@HSI-KBW-085-216-104-059.hsi.kabelbw.de)
2021-01-28 13:44:12 +0100 <lortabac> sorry I meant 'Proxy n -> TypedInput n t'
2021-01-28 13:44:13 +0100dexterlb(~dexterlb@2a01:9e40:2:2::2)
2021-01-28 13:44:58 +0100 <ephemient> actually reminds me of a question... is there a reason to have a type signature with `Proxy (n :: nat)` instead of `proxy (n :: Nat)`? seems to me like it would accept (Proxy :: Proxy n) either way
2021-01-28 13:45:30 +0100 <olligobber> ok, now it's complaining about my type family being non-injective again
2021-01-28 13:45:48 +0100 <idnar> merijn: true, I was thinking of link2
2021-01-28 13:48:48 +0100 <olligobber> anyone know how I can make this type family injective? https://github.com/olligobber/IotaBF/blob/7e584c22f33d33b5d9c3cf5b00e4ecec97cb74d6/Functional/Lamb…
2021-01-28 13:49:19 +0100 <olligobber> I tried just adding a type family dependency, but then the two cases overlap, and I can't figure out how to not make that the case
2021-01-28 13:51:24 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 13:51:43 +0100 <olligobber> maybe it's impossible and I should just give up?
2021-01-28 13:52:27 +0100timCF(~i.tkachuk@m91-129-101-103.cust.tele2.ee) (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-28 13:52:28 +0100 <olligobber> this is just to make the code more concise so I can write `input 3' instead of `free $ Just $ Just Nothing'
2021-01-28 13:52:58 +0100 <merijn> olligobber: Eh, that's not gonna work
2021-01-28 13:53:12 +0100 <merijn> olligobber: You need dependent types to turn a value level 3 into a type level Nat
2021-01-28 13:53:18 +0100 <merijn> Well, that or wrap it in TH
2021-01-28 13:53:36 +0100 <olligobber> I was gonna use a proxy, would that not do it?
2021-01-28 13:54:39 +0100 <merijn> Then you have to type "input (Proxy :: Proxy 3)" instead
2021-01-28 13:54:49 +0100 <olligobber> that's fine
2021-01-28 13:55:29 +0100pavonia(~user@unaffiliated/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
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2021-01-28 13:56:37 +0100jonathanx(~jonathan@h-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se)
2021-01-28 13:57:18 +0100 <olligobber> but I tried having input :: Proxy n -> TypedInput n t and I got an error about a type family being non-injective, and I don't know how to write it so it is injective
2021-01-28 13:57:23 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: you can't force a function to be injective if it isn't
2021-01-28 13:57:30 +0100 <olligobber> but it is injective
2021-01-28 13:57:32 +0100 <lortabac> maybe the error is misleading here
2021-01-28 13:57:47 +0100 <olligobber> I just haven't written it in a way where it looks injective
2021-01-28 13:57:59 +0100 <olligobber> oh
2021-01-28 13:58:00 +0100 <olligobber> wait
2021-01-28 13:58:02 +0100 <olligobber> it isn't
2021-01-28 13:58:04 +0100 <olligobber> f
2021-01-28 13:58:23 +0100Aquazi(uid312403@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vgspjighzgkfvyvf)
2021-01-28 13:58:34 +0100jespada(~jespada@90.254.242.138) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28 13:59:12 +0100 <olligobber> not sure why injectivity is important, but I guess my idea won't work
2021-01-28 14:00:19 +0100 <lortabac> can you paste the code and the error message?
2021-01-28 14:00:33 +0100hekkaidekapus[(~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus)
2021-01-28 14:01:41 +0100jespada(~jespada@90.254.242.138)
2021-01-28 14:02:16 +0100 <olligobber> code: https://gist.github.com/olligobber/8961972056bf2742232247e3765125c8
2021-01-28 14:02:32 +0100ukari(~ukari@unaffiliated/ukari) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 14:02:45 +0100 <olligobber> error: https://gist.github.com/olligobber/9394ca6368363a0c112b83eb685fd1c8
2021-01-28 14:03:10 +0100livvy(~livvy@gateway/tor-sasl/livvy) (Quit: Network issue or system upgrade probably or maybe I'm testing a new kernel.)
2021-01-28 14:03:41 +0100hekkaidekapus}(~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-28 14:03:45 +0100ukari(~ukari@unaffiliated/ukari)
2021-01-28 14:06:30 +0100 <olligobber> the error does suggest allowing ambiguous types, maybe I'll try that
2021-01-28 14:07:42 +0100Sheilong(uid293653@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pnpeukuovkmcsdlh)
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2021-01-28 14:10:47 +0100Tario(~Tario@201.192.165.173)
2021-01-28 14:12:12 +0100 <olligobber> now I'm running into different errors...
2021-01-28 14:12:16 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 14:12:36 +0100livvy(~livvy@gateway/tor-sasl/livvy)
2021-01-28 14:12:53 +0100jonathanx(~jonathan@h-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se)
2021-01-28 14:13:35 +0100 <dminuoso> olligobber: take note, that the mention of injectivity is not meant as "this is a problem"
2021-01-28 14:13:38 +0100 <dminuoso> It starts with NB.
2021-01-28 14:15:01 +0100 <olligobber> hmm, this error says `Could not deduce: TypedInput' n t v ~ TypedLambda t0 (Maybe a0) from the context: 1 <= n'
2021-01-28 14:15:03 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@unaffiliated/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-28 14:15:54 +0100 <olligobber> I can deduce it, why can't the type checker deduce it?
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2021-01-28 14:16:52 +0100geekosaur(82650c7c@130.101.12.124)
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2021-01-28 14:17:41 +0100mananamenos_(~mananamen@84.122.202.215.dyn.user.ono.com)
2021-01-28 14:17:49 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: I think what you are trying to do is possible, but probably way harder than typing a couple of 'Just's
2021-01-28 14:18:17 +0100 <olligobber> ok, then I think I'll keep trying
2021-01-28 14:18:28 +0100 <olligobber> as a learning experience
2021-01-28 14:21:21 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: please remember that you can't pattern-match on 'n', so one solution may be to make 'input' a method of a type class
2021-01-28 14:21:47 +0100 <olligobber> so the class would be for the Nat type?
2021-01-28 14:22:04 +0100 <lortabac> the instances would be selected on 'n'
2021-01-28 14:22:11 +0100 <olligobber> right
2021-01-28 14:22:16 +0100bitmagie(~Thunderbi@200116b806ad7e005d25719f6165002c.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2021-01-28 14:22:18 +0100 <lortabac> inductively until you meet the base case of 0
2021-01-28 14:22:36 +0100 <olligobber> hard mode: base case is 1
2021-01-28 14:22:50 +0100 <lortabac> oh right
2021-01-28 14:22:56 +0100 <lortabac> it doesn't change much
2021-01-28 14:24:49 +0100 <olligobber> Could not deduce (1 <=? n) ~ 'True from the context 2 <= n
2021-01-28 14:24:51 +0100 <olligobber> >:(
2021-01-28 14:25:16 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: are you sure you need that constraint?
2021-01-28 14:25:20 +0100metreo(~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/metreo)
2021-01-28 14:25:32 +0100 <olligobber> true
2021-01-28 14:25:39 +0100 <lortabac> maybe for better error messages
2021-01-28 14:25:44 +0100 <lortabac> but you can think about that later
2021-01-28 14:26:14 +0100bitmagie(~Thunderbi@200116b806ad7e005d25719f6165002c.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Client Quit)
2021-01-28 14:26:36 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:54b6:e8d3:c70d:8881)
2021-01-28 14:26:52 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: also, GHC's Nat might not be the best representation, I would personally go for a Peano one
2021-01-28 14:27:15 +0100 <lortabac> and then provide conversions between the two
2021-01-28 14:27:18 +0100 <olligobber> I looked at those but there were too many options
2021-01-28 14:27:35 +0100 <olligobber> I went with GHC's because it was already installed
2021-01-28 14:28:06 +0100qwertyuiop(5b816567@m91-129-101-103.cust.tele2.ee) (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-28 14:28:24 +0100 <lortabac> @hackage fin
2021-01-28 14:28:24 +0100 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/fin
2021-01-28 14:28:43 +0100 <lortabac> maybe
2021-01-28 14:29:21 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@unaffiliated/cfricke)
2021-01-28 14:29:29 +0100 <lortabac> I think it's doable with GHC's Nat too, but you need overlapping instances or some complicated workaround
2021-01-28 14:29:35 +0100 <olligobber> tbh I haven't worked out how to install packages from hackage unless they're on the aur
2021-01-28 14:29:53 +0100zaquest(~notzaques@5.128.210.178) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28 14:31:23 +0100zaquest(~notzaques@5.128.210.178)
2021-01-28 14:31:38 +0100 <olligobber> this one is on the aur: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/finite-typelits
2021-01-28 14:31:50 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:54b6:e8d3:c70d:8881) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28 14:32:05 +0100urodna(~urodna@unaffiliated/urodna)
2021-01-28 14:32:24 +0100 <olligobber> wait that just uses GHC.TypeLits
2021-01-28 14:33:05 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 14:33:50 +0100tatooine-sunset(~botond@217-197-190-248.pool.digikabel.hu)
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2021-01-28 14:36:23 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: if it's an exercise you can just make one yourself
2021-01-28 14:36:34 +0100 <olligobber> yeah
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2021-01-28 14:40:14 +0100justanotheruser(~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28 14:42:11 +0100 <olligobber> ok, switched to peano nats, but I'm still getting errors, let me post them in a second
2021-01-28 14:43:01 +0100 <olligobber> https://gist.github.com/olligobber/3e011a6460896a76e7cd01938c0fa5c3
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2021-01-28 14:45:55 +0100niekvandepas(~niekvande@89.205.129.217)
2021-01-28 14:45:56 +0100buggymcbugfix_buggymcbugfix
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2021-01-28 14:54:04 +0100hyperisco(~hyperisco@104-195-141-253.cpe.teksavvy.com)
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2021-01-28 14:57:42 +0100elliott_(~elliott_@pool-108-51-101-42.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2021-01-28 14:58:26 +0100 <[exa]> anyone runs Gloss on windows?
2021-01-28 14:58:51 +0100 <[exa]> (scanning for possible gotchas/compatibility problems)
2021-01-28 14:59:04 +0100carlomagno(~cararell@148.87.23.12)
2021-01-28 14:59:07 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 15:00:37 +0100Lycurgus(~niemand@cpe-45-46-139-165.buffalo.res.rr.com)
2021-01-28 15:00:49 +0100Eugleo(5631fa78@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.86.49.250.120)
2021-01-28 15:01:15 +0100 <Eugleo> Hey, anybody has experience with Gloss apps on WSL? Do they run? Are there any problems t watch out for?
2021-01-28 15:02:53 +0100gxt(~gxt@gateway/tor-sasl/gxt) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-28 15:03:30 +0100shatriff(~vitaliish@176-52-216-242.irishtelecom.com)
2021-01-28 15:04:37 +0100gxt(~gxt@gateway/tor-sasl/gxt)
2021-01-28 15:05:25 +0100 <olligobber> maybe I should give up...
2021-01-28 15:05:45 +0100vicfred__(~vicfred@unaffiliated/vicfred) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28 15:06:17 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: this is advanced stuff, maybe you can postpone to when you are more comfortable with these concepts
2021-01-28 15:06:51 +0100 <olligobber> how am I going to become comfortable with these concepts without trying to use them though?
2021-01-28 15:08:13 +0100ArConan(9de62a69@157.230.42.105) (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-28 15:08:30 +0100 <lortabac> fair point :)
2021-01-28 15:11:06 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: I can see at least two problems in your code
2021-01-28 15:11:06 +0100niekvandepas(~niekvande@89.205.129.217) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28 15:11:18 +0100 <olligobber> I would love to know where they are
2021-01-28 15:11:20 +0100niekvandepas(~niekvande@89.205.129.217)
2021-01-28 15:11:34 +0100 <lortabac> the instances are overlapping -- the second one should match 'Succ (Succ n)'
2021-01-28 15:12:44 +0100 <fendor> [exa], we ran a game using gloss on windows
2021-01-28 15:12:45 +0100 <olligobber> I get the same errors either way
2021-01-28 15:12:59 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: also, 't' is ambiguous, you need to pass it through a Proxy or a type-application
2021-01-28 15:13:32 +0100 <fendor> everything was pretty alright, but can't remember how we actually managed to install everything properly
2021-01-28 15:14:46 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 15:14:50 +0100 <olligobber> lortabac, I implemented both those changes and get almost the same errors :(
2021-01-28 15:15:22 +0100 <Eugleo> fendor: And was it windows or WSL?
2021-01-28 15:15:28 +0100puke(~vroom@217.138.252.203)
2021-01-28 15:15:42 +0100 <fendor> Eugleo, iirc, it was windows
2021-01-28 15:15:54 +0100 <fendor> but we used stack, so maybe cygwin?
2021-01-28 15:16:01 +0100Profpatsch(~Profpatsc@static.88-198-193-255.clients.your-server.de)
2021-01-28 15:16:09 +0100 <fendor> no, stack install msys2, right?
2021-01-28 15:16:25 +0100 <olligobber> I have another idea...
2021-01-28 15:17:03 +0100Stanley00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00)
2021-01-28 15:17:06 +0100 <fendor> I think you have to install opengl
2021-01-28 15:17:30 +0100berberman_(~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman)
2021-01-28 15:18:09 +0100deviantfero(~deviantfe@190.150.27.58)
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2021-01-28 15:23:29 +0100 <olligobber> it didn't work
2021-01-28 15:24:09 +0100 <olligobber> lortabac, are you sure this is possible?
2021-01-28 15:24:49 +0100syd(~syd@cpc91646-hart11-2-0-cust432.11-3.cable.virginm.net)
2021-01-28 15:25:05 +0100Tops2(~Tobias@dyndsl-095-033-024-195.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
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2021-01-28 15:26:41 +0100conal(~conal@192.145.117.129)
2021-01-28 15:26:58 +0100 <olligobber> hmm, can I mix type applications with multi param type classes?
2021-01-28 15:27:03 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: yes but as I said this is advanced stuff
2021-01-28 15:27:31 +0100 <olligobber> lortabac, do you have any tips? things I could look up that might help?
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2021-01-28 15:30:39 +0100Cocytus(~Cocytus@cpe-76-95-48-109.socal.res.rr.com) ()
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2021-01-28 15:52:44 +0100 <[exa]> fendor: good thanks. I guess installing the gl sdk is not a hard problem
2021-01-28 15:53:31 +0100geekosaur(82650c7c@130.101.12.124) (Quit: Connection closed)
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2021-01-28 16:02:24 +0100lukaswilkeer(b3438f77@179-67-143-119.user3p.veloxzone.com.br)
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2021-01-28 16:04:12 +0100Tario(~Tario@201.192.165.173)
2021-01-28 16:04:18 +0100 <olligobber> I just had an idea
2021-01-28 16:04:23 +0100 <olligobber> ugh better try it now
2021-01-28 16:05:25 +0100Sgeo(~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net)
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2021-01-28 16:06:40 +0100denisse(~spaceCat@gateway/tor-sasl/alephzer0)
2021-01-28 16:11:40 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> Can someone explain the map function annotation? In that case, receives a list (a->b), proceeds to a list [a] resulting a list of [b]. But map is a function whereas apply a to b, so, what is the list [a]? You need to know about how map works to comprehend the annotation, and the second parameter, [a], as a resulting of a(b), so on [b(a) | b <- b).
2021-01-28 16:11:40 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> Or there's a meaning about in this?
2021-01-28 16:12:04 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> ops, [a(b) | b <- b]
2021-01-28 16:12:30 +0100jackk_(~jackk@205.178.111.134) (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com))
2021-01-28 16:15:22 +0100 <merijn> lukaswilkeer: (a->b) is not a list... ?
2021-01-28 16:15:32 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> it's a function
2021-01-28 16:16:03 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> receives a function as a first parameter an b as a list.
2021-01-28 16:16:19 +0100flatmap(~flatmap@p200300dd373b2a0018f40ccf4f078e3d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-01-28 16:16:27 +0100 <merijn> I can't understand that sentence
2021-01-28 16:16:28 +0100justanotheruser(~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser)
2021-01-28 16:16:40 +0100 <ephemient> I can't understand you either. do you mean [a->b] -> [a] -> [b]?
2021-01-28 16:17:13 +0100coot(~coot@37.30.55.132.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
2021-01-28 16:17:25 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 16:17:44 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> yep, but this is a map function annotation. :info map (a->b) -> [a] -> [b], where (a->b) is a function wich receives two parameters.
2021-01-28 16:17:46 +0100 <olligobber> wtf it worked
2021-01-28 16:18:23 +0100jonathanx(~jonathan@h-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28 16:18:43 +0100jonathanx(~jonathan@h-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se)
2021-01-28 16:18:43 +0100 <shiraeeshi> function (a -> b) receives one parameter
2021-01-28 16:18:46 +0100 <ephemient> if type b = x -> y, then you're using map :: (a -> x -> y) -> [a] -> [x -> y], which is fine
2021-01-28 16:18:58 +0100Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@47.54.252.148) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 16:19:04 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-28 16:19:13 +0100Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@47.54.252.148)
2021-01-28 16:19:27 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2021-01-28 16:19:53 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> on that case, [a] is a list o f(x) function where's the image is a response to the o map, after this, they converge to a list of result, that are [b].
2021-01-28 16:20:23 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> rigth?
2021-01-28 16:20:36 +0100 <merijn> I don't think anyone can answer that question
2021-01-28 16:20:50 +0100 <ephemient> I cannot parse your statement
2021-01-28 16:22:02 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28 16:22:56 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> where is a set witch is the resulting process of parsing map(a.b), translating, f(b), or a(b), result on another set on the group, that is another set, [b] wich is a result of the primarily set of functors.
2021-01-28 16:23:10 +0100Sh4rPEYE(~textual@2a02:8308:388:aa00:c445:300:dc4e:194f)
2021-01-28 16:23:44 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> category theory, sets. concret math. so this function(i mean, the annotation) makes total sense
2021-01-28 16:24:07 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 16:24:08 +0100rayyyy(~nanoz@gateway/tor-sasl/nanoz)
2021-01-28 16:24:54 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> *the resulting (image) of the first set
2021-01-28 16:26:03 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> every set posses a image, this is, set theory.
2021-01-28 16:26:52 +0100 <kuribas> If I have: data A = AA Int | AB Int, could it be coerced to data B = BA (Sum Int) | BB (Sum Int) ?
2021-01-28 16:27:08 +0100 <ephemient> it doesn't make a great deal of sense here as lists are not sets... but sure, if you want to think about it like that...
2021-01-28 16:27:27 +0100 <ephemient> in a sense, the type doesn't tell you that such is the behavior; `map _ _ = []` would satisfy the type signature as well (but it would be rather useless)
2021-01-28 16:27:39 +0100 <ephemient> @djinn (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
2021-01-28 16:27:39 +0100 <lambdabot> Error: Undefined type []
2021-01-28 16:27:54 +0100 <ephemient> oh I guess djinn can't do magic
2021-01-28 16:28:22 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:54b6:e8d3:c70d:8881)
2021-01-28 16:28:56 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@135-23-192-217.cpe.pppoe.ca)
2021-01-28 16:29:07 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2021-01-28 16:29:41 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> kuribas using? You have a type(I think a struct) that can be coerced(applying transformations to the data, wich is function composition) resulting in BA | BB
2021-01-28 16:29:57 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> lambda calculus
2021-01-28 16:30:16 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> right?
2021-01-28 16:31:11 +0100 <kuribas> sure I can write a function to do that
2021-01-28 16:31:23 +0100 <kuribas> I was wondering if it could be coerced, using "coerce"
2021-01-28 16:31:23 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> ok, that's it.
2021-01-28 16:32:09 +0100 <kuribas> I am probably micro-optimizing though..
2021-01-28 16:32:17 +0100 <ephemient> kuribas: alternately, if you defined `data C x = CA x | CB x` then you could `coerce :: C Int -> C (Sum Int)`
2021-01-28 16:32:44 +0100 <kuribas> I could, but they are in a different module...
2021-01-28 16:33:03 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:54b6:e8d3:c70d:8881) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28 16:33:51 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> coerce :: forall (k :: RuntimeRep) (a :: TYPE k) (b :: TYPE k). Coercible a b => a -> b, by the annotation you can to that. I saw on the hoogle.
2021-01-28 16:35:11 +0100 <merijn> kuribas: "no"
2021-01-28 16:35:14 +0100knupfer(~Thunderbi@200116b82c7e6d00b82cf3cf122fb0d6.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 16:35:15 +0100brightly-salty[m(brightly-s@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-aarthkmmqveerxer)
2021-01-28 16:35:19 +0100 <merijn> kuribas: You can't coerce datatypes
2021-01-28 16:35:22 +0100knupfer(~Thunderbi@200116b82c7e6d00f93273791f4c549b.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2021-01-28 16:35:38 +0100 <merijn> kuribas: You could unsafeCoerce them, but, eh...good luck with that :p
2021-01-28 16:35:39 +0100jchia__(~jchia@jungle.jchia.net)
2021-01-28 16:35:44 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> on that case, the resulting type is a Int
2021-01-28 16:36:03 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> *an
2021-01-28 16:36:10 +0100 <kuribas> merijn: coerce is only for newtypes right?
2021-01-28 16:36:16 +0100 <merijn> Yeah
2021-01-28 16:36:48 +0100 <merijn> kuribas: If you had "data A a = AA a | AB a" you could coerce from "A Int" to "A (Sum Int)"
2021-01-28 16:37:26 +0100 <kuribas> because that coerces the newtypes
2021-01-28 16:37:32 +0100 <kuribas> not a data type into another data type
2021-01-28 16:37:51 +0100 <merijn> right
2021-01-28 16:37:52 +0100 <olligobber> lortabac, I did it
2021-01-28 16:38:16 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 16:38:17 +0100conal(~conal@192.145.117.129) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 16:38:49 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> @mer
2021-01-28 16:38:49 +0100 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: vera msg more metar let arr
2021-01-28 16:39:09 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: nice, what did you do?
2021-01-28 16:39:39 +0100 <olligobber> lortabac, made my type family injective
2021-01-28 16:39:49 +0100 <olligobber> lortabac, by making the base case use Void
2021-01-28 16:39:55 +0100jchia__(~jchia@jungle.jchia.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 16:40:05 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> @mergin "you could coerce from "A Int" to "A (Sum Int)" that's is what i'm talking.
2021-01-28 16:40:05 +0100 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
2021-01-28 16:40:18 +0100 <lukaswilkeer> i have to left the group, so, thanks you all
2021-01-28 16:40:29 +0100lukaswilkeer(b3438f77@179-67-143-119.user3p.veloxzone.com.br) (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-28 16:40:33 +0100 <olligobber> I'll push the code soon
2021-01-28 16:40:45 +0100rayyyy(~nanoz@gateway/tor-sasl/nanoz) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 16:41:06 +0100rayyyy(~nanoz@gateway/tor-sasl/nanoz)
2021-01-28 16:41:27 +0100 <olligobber> it would be nicer if I could type 0,1,2,... instead of Zero, Succ Zero, Succ (Succ Zero), ...
2021-01-28 16:42:46 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: that's a simple feature to add
2021-01-28 16:42:54 +0100 <kuribas> olligobber: you can write a Num instance
2021-01-28 16:42:58 +0100User670(ca423cb5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.202.66.60.181) (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-28 16:43:05 +0100 <olligobber> kuribas, it isn't a type
2021-01-28 16:43:11 +0100 <olligobber> wait
2021-01-28 16:43:16 +0100 <olligobber> it is a type, it isn't a term
2021-01-28 16:43:21 +0100 <olligobber> Zero :: Type
2021-01-28 16:43:30 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 16:43:31 +0100 <kuribas> oh...
2021-01-28 16:45:11 +0100 <shiraeeshi> you can programmatically generate source code to represent numbers as types
2021-01-28 16:45:16 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 16:45:34 +0100 <shiraeeshi> like data MyNumbers = One | Two | Three | etc.
2021-01-28 16:45:34 +0100 <olligobber> sounds hacky
2021-01-28 16:46:02 +0100 <merijn> I have an easier solution :)
2021-01-28 16:46:19 +0100 <merijn> Give up on trying to use Haskell as a dependently typed language :p
2021-01-28 16:46:31 +0100 <olligobber> merijn, I was about to do that, but then I didn't
2021-01-28 16:46:50 +0100 <merijn> olligobber: I, too, often make poor life choices ;)
2021-01-28 16:47:45 +0100 <kuribas> merijn: why try a simple solution, when you can make life hard (and typesafe)?
2021-01-28 16:48:26 +0100 <olligobber> my old solution was typesafe, but also involved many nested Justs and Maybes
2021-01-28 16:48:38 +0100tdammersalmost reinvented linear types badly in haskell
2021-01-28 16:49:08 +0100 <ephemient> have you ever thought, binary numbers are too efficient
2021-01-28 16:49:18 +0100 <tdammers> in the end, though, I settled on wrapping values in MVars, and throwing runtime exceptions when finding them empty
2021-01-28 16:49:36 +0100rdivyanshu(uid322626@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lnncqkpdqnzwrber)
2021-01-28 16:50:17 +0100soft-warm(4408f588@ip68-8-245-136.sd.sd.cox.net)
2021-01-28 16:51:13 +0100 <shiraeeshi> tdammers, what was the use case?
2021-01-28 16:51:15 +0100 <olligobber> do I just make a type family to convert Nat to my types?
2021-01-28 16:51:26 +0100jamm_(~jamm@unaffiliated/jamm)
2021-01-28 16:51:39 +0100 <tdammers> shiraeeshi: deterministic deallocation
2021-01-28 16:52:15 +0100 <tdammers> shiraeeshi: specifically, storing secrets in mlocked RAM, and then "forgetting" them securely by overwriting the locked RAM with zeroes before unlocking it
2021-01-28 16:53:17 +0100 <lortabac> olligobber: yes
2021-01-28 16:53:21 +0100 <tdammers> ideally, I would have wanted a setup where a context in which a reference is "valid" (i.e., allocated and mlocked) has a different type than one where it has been erased and unlocked
2021-01-28 16:53:54 +0100d3od(~nickmeno3@78-0-98-144.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
2021-01-28 16:54:41 +0100conal(~conal@192.145.117.129)
2021-01-28 16:55:31 +0100 <shiraeeshi> tdammers, so you filled memory with zeros before releasing an MVar?
2021-01-28 16:55:50 +0100jamm_(~jamm@unaffiliated/jamm) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28 16:56:00 +0100 <tdammers> the MVar is just there to signal validity
2021-01-28 16:56:20 +0100 <tdammers> it holds a raw C pointer to a block of mlocked memory
2021-01-28 16:56:35 +0100cfricke(~cfricke@unaffiliated/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-28 16:56:39 +0100 <shiraeeshi> oh, I think I need to refresh my memory about how MVars work
2021-01-28 16:56:40 +0100 <tdammers> or rather, a ForeignPtr
2021-01-28 16:57:15 +0100shatriff(~vitaliish@176-52-216-242.irishtelecom.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 16:57:17 +0100 <tdammers> the ForeignPtr has a finalizer that erases the memory before unlocking and freeing it
2021-01-28 16:57:22 +0100 <tdammers> so that part is fine
2021-01-28 16:57:50 +0100shatriff(~vitaliish@176-52-216-242.irishtelecom.com)
2021-01-28 16:57:56 +0100 <tdammers> but the way finalizers work, the raw pointer would still be accessible after the finalizer has run, so we need to prevent that from happening
2021-01-28 16:57:57 +0100 <olligobber> lortabac, yeet
2021-01-28 16:58:07 +0100atwm(~andrew@178.197.235.44) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2021-01-28 16:58:39 +0100 <tdammers> hence, we put it in an MVar. when we allocate the memory, we put it in an MVar; and when we deallocate it, we first take it out of the MVar, and from that point on, it is no longer accessible to any other code
2021-01-28 16:59:54 +0100 <olligobber> wait it still doesn't work?
2021-01-28 17:00:22 +0100 <olligobber> oh no
2021-01-28 17:00:36 +0100nhs(~nhs@c-24-20-87-79.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 17:02:00 +0100knupfer(~Thunderbi@200116b82c7e6d00f93273791f4c549b.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Quit: knupfer)
2021-01-28 17:04:50 +0100jchia__(~jchia@58.32.38.49)
2021-01-28 17:05:03 +0100 <olligobber> ok I have yet another idea
2021-01-28 17:07:43 +0100cr3(~cr3@192-222-143-195.qc.cable.ebox.net)
2021-01-28 17:11:46 +0100klausgena(~user@ip-62-235-175-179.dsl.scarlet.be)
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2021-01-28 17:13:52 +0100 <olligobber> I sleep and figure this out tomorrow
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2021-01-28 17:49:32 +0100 <kuribas> why does ghc warn about "unused constructor", when a constructor is mandatory?
2021-01-28 17:51:09 +0100alx741(~alx741@186.178.110.213)
2021-01-28 17:52:38 +0100 <hc> kuribas: could ye paste the code somewhere, please?
2021-01-28 17:52:51 +0100 <kuribas> hc: sure
2021-01-28 17:53:40 +0100nhs(~nhs@c-24-20-87-79.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 17:54:03 +0100 <kuribas> hc: https://github.com/kuribas/hasqlator-mysql/blob/main/src/Database/MySQL/Hasqlator/Typed.hs
2021-01-28 17:55:26 +0100klausgena(~user@ip-62-235-175-179.dsl.scarlet.be) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28 17:55:27 +0100geekosaur(82650c7c@130.101.12.124)
2021-01-28 17:56:11 +0100nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7785:9600:5538:6d40:d5d9:f8a6)
2021-01-28 17:56:33 +0100 <hc> which line?
2021-01-28 17:57:24 +0100 <kuribas> hc: https://github.com/kuribas/hasqlator-mysql/blob/main/src/Database/MySQL/Hasqlator/Typed.hs#L102
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2021-01-28 17:59:10 +0100 <hc> looks to me like the data constructor is neither used nor exported
2021-01-28 17:59:21 +0100shatriff(~vitaliish@176-52-216-242.irishtelecom.com)
2021-01-28 17:59:56 +0100 <geekosaur> and ghc isn't smart enough to count `coerce` as a use
2021-01-28 18:00:06 +0100 <hc> and neither am I ;)
2021-01-28 18:00:11 +0100 <kuribas> hc: I don't want to export it
2021-01-28 18:00:13 +0100 <geekosaur> (remember that `coerce` is magical)
2021-01-28 18:00:23 +0100 <hc> btw, http://www.resonata.be/ (linked on your github page) looks kinda broken to me
2021-01-28 18:00:24 +0100_bin(~bin@2600:1700:10a1:38d0:48c6:7ef4:249:254a) (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
2021-01-28 18:01:05 +0100 <kuribas> hc: it *is* broken
2021-01-28 18:01:26 +0100nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7785:9600:5538:6d40:d5d9:f8a6) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2021-01-28 18:04:34 +0100cocytus_(~cocytus@cpe-76-95-48-109.socal.res.rr.com)
2021-01-28 18:05:15 +0100 <hc> Okay, I had never heard of coerce. Looks useful enough
2021-01-28 18:05:19 +0100Tops21(~Tobias@dyndsl-095-033-024-195.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
2021-01-28 18:05:55 +0100rcdilorenzo(~rcdiloren@62.182.99.136)
2021-01-28 18:06:02 +0100jeremym(~jeremym@68-73-116-155.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net)
2021-01-28 18:06:23 +0100 <kuribas> very useful, I wish I knew about it earlier
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2021-01-28 18:09:36 +0100 <ph88^> is there any way i can choose the resolver from the command line when doing stack install ?
2021-01-28 18:10:22 +0100 <tdammers> --resolver, off the top of my head
2021-01-28 18:10:30 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2021-01-28 18:10:35 +0100 <geekosaur> that's my recollection as well
2021-01-28 18:11:40 +0100 <ph88^> hmm strange i found that now in the guide .. but didn't see it when i did stack install --help or stack build --help
2021-01-28 18:11:42 +0100 <geekosaur> may not work if installing a package with its own `stack.yaml` that specifies a different one, that is `stack install` with no args
2021-01-28 18:11:53 +0100 <ph88^> maybe i should open a ticket for that that it is missing in the help
2021-01-28 18:12:08 +0100nhs(~nhs@c-24-20-87-79.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
2021-01-28 18:13:24 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-01-28 18:16:35 +0100 <merijn> We still don't have a nice pretty formatting function/library for numbers, do we? >.>
2021-01-28 18:16:45 +0100Sh4rPEYE(~textual@2a02:8308:388:aa00:c445:300:dc4e:194f)
2021-01-28 18:17:07 +0100 <maerwald> one more thing you can do after your thesis
2021-01-28 18:17:23 +0100Boomerang(~Boomerang@2a05:f6c7:2179:0:5976:80b4:6657:63a8) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28 18:17:32 +0100 <ProofTechnique> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/format-numbers-0.1.0.1/docs/Data-Text-Format-Numbers.html?
2021-01-28 18:17:43 +0100 <merijn> maerwald: But I want it to help explore the results :(
2021-01-28 18:18:28 +0100 <merijn> ah, that might work
2021-01-28 18:19:00 +0100 <merijn> Probably not very fast, though xD
2021-01-28 18:19:16 +0100Major_Biscuit(~Major_Bis@82-169-100-198.biz.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28 18:20:42 +0100Graf_Blutwurst(~grafblutw@2001:171b:226e:adc0:68cc:bd3d:def0:5db2) (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-28 18:21:20 +0100juuandyy(~juuandyy@90.106.228.121)
2021-01-28 18:24:47 +0100nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7785:9600:1d25:9d82:8276:bb69)
2021-01-28 18:25:12 +0100 <Sh4rPEYE> Hey, anybody here with experience with Purescript / Elm who would want to chime in in this discussion?
2021-01-28 18:25:27 +0100 <Sh4rPEYE> https://www.reddit.com/r/purescript/comments/l70qjn/which_one_of_purescript_elm_and_reason_is_most/
2021-01-28 18:25:56 +0100 <Sh4rPEYE> (Teacher looking for an ideal FP language to base a course on)
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2021-01-28 18:48:25 +0100deviantfero(~deviantfe@190.150.27.58)
2021-01-28 18:48:46 +0100 <texasmynsted> Sh4rPEYE: If you are creating a course I would use Haskell or Racket
2021-01-28 18:49:23 +0100jmchael(~jmchael@87.112.235.234)
2021-01-28 18:49:40 +0100 <kuribas> scheme is very nice
2021-01-28 18:49:43 +0100Varis(~Tadas@unaffiliated/varis)
2021-01-28 18:49:49 +0100 <maerwald> Elm sounds like a good fit of the course is about web dev
2021-01-28 18:50:00 +0100 <kuribas> because the core language is very small, but you can explain many concepts from it.
2021-01-28 18:50:08 +0100 <texasmynsted> While Purescript and Elm are both great in practice, a course should be focused on the important things not implementation details.
2021-01-28 18:50:29 +0100 <texasmynsted> yes, scheme is great
2021-01-28 18:50:35 +0100 <maerwald> being productive is important
2021-01-28 18:50:44 +0100 <maerwald> especially in practical courses
2021-01-28 18:50:50 +0100Jesin(~Jesin@pool-72-66-101-18.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2021-01-28 18:51:09 +0100 <texasmynsted> I think people can be very productive using haskell.
2021-01-28 18:51:21 +0100 <maerwald> not as fast
2021-01-28 18:51:42 +0100 <texasmynsted> "not as fast"?
2021-01-28 18:51:53 +0100 <texasmynsted> I do not believe that.
2021-01-28 18:52:07 +0100 <maerwald> then you have never taught it
2021-01-28 18:53:18 +0100 <kuribas> maerwald: not as fast productive?
2021-01-28 18:53:40 +0100 <maerwald> yeah, compared to elm
2021-01-28 18:53:47 +0100 <texasmynsted> People are simply learning the important stuff. Learning is work.
2021-01-28 18:53:47 +0100 <maerwald> especially in web dev
2021-01-28 18:54:02 +0100texasmynstedshrug
2021-01-28 18:54:25 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28 18:54:26 +0100 <koz_> What maerwald says is 100% the problem with 'the web'.
2021-01-28 18:54:28 +0100 <texasmynsted> If it is web dev then I suppose a web specific language would be useful
2021-01-28 18:54:46 +0100 <koz_> It's all a mountain of trash built atop other trash, because nobody cares about anything but 'forall X build X in 5 minutes'.
2021-01-28 18:54:53 +0100 <texasmynsted> It depends on the mission of your class
2021-01-28 18:55:45 +0100conal(~conal@192.145.117.109)
2021-01-28 18:56:00 +0100 <texasmynsted> Write code in seconds may sell classes but does not make for good code
2021-01-28 18:56:17 +0100 <maerwald> did you read the reddit thread?
2021-01-28 18:56:18 +0100 <texasmynsted> Python is a good example
2021-01-28 18:56:21 +0100 <geekosaur> nobody on the web cares about good code
2021-01-28 18:56:26 +0100 <texasmynsted> no I did not
2021-01-28 18:56:36 +0100 <koz_> texasmynsted: I dunno if you were here at the time, but there was someone in here 100% saying 'acshually, Haskell is bad because you have to write good code in it'.
2021-01-28 18:56:47 +0100 <maerwald> well, there are specific requirements
2021-01-28 18:56:51 +0100 <koz_> (no seriously his argument amounted to 'people want to write garbage and we should let them')
2021-01-28 18:56:55 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2021-01-28 18:57:03 +0100 <koz_> geekosaur: Truth right there, lizard bro.
2021-01-28 18:57:23 +0100 <texasmynsted> That is exactly what is wrong with development
2021-01-28 18:57:56 +0100 <koz_> 'Worse is better' is a hell of a drug.
2021-01-28 18:58:17 +0100 <maerwald> Well, whatever you guya are arguing about, it's not about the reddit thread :p
2021-01-28 18:58:19 +0100texasmynstedattempts to read the reddit
2021-01-28 18:58:36 +0100 <merijn> texasmynsted: You can't, it's all GameStop :p
2021-01-28 18:58:59 +0100 <merijn> koz_: Reminds me
2021-01-28 18:59:04 +0100 <merijn> @quote everything.is.hard
2021-01-28 18:59:04 +0100 <lambdabot> #haskell says: Writing good code is hard in any language. Writing bad code is hard in Haskell, therefore, everything is hard in Haskell
2021-01-28 18:59:15 +0100rdivyanshu(uid322626@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lnncqkpdqnzwrber) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-28 18:59:33 +0100dyeplexer(~lol@unaffiliated/terpin) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 19:00:17 +0100 <texasmynsted> One of the biggest advantages a language can give the programmer is making it difficult to write bad code.
2021-01-28 19:00:21 +0100 <merijn> It's funny, 'cause it's true
2021-01-28 19:00:31 +0100 <monochrom> And nobody cares about reading the original article/thread. Has been true since slashdot.
2021-01-28 19:00:41 +0100 <texasmynsted> I read the heading in reddit
2021-01-28 19:00:46 +0100 <monochrom> Yes.
2021-01-28 19:01:01 +0100 <texasmynsted> I stick with Haskell or Racket
2021-01-28 19:01:01 +0100howdoi(uid224@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kendsybseqbsecek)
2021-01-28 19:01:03 +0100rayyyy(~nanoz@gateway/tor-sasl/nanoz)
2021-01-28 19:01:06 +0100 <monochrom> People simply read the heading and, the fun part being, start debating.
2021-01-28 19:01:09 +0100 <merijn> monochrom: Did you ever read Ender's Game?
2021-01-28 19:01:22 +0100 <monochrom> No. I watched the movie though.
2021-01-28 19:01:30 +0100 <maerwald> I'm wondering if I agree that haskell makes writing bad code hard. You have to go out of yourway maybe, but once you've learned a few bad patterns, you can basically use them everywhere
2021-01-28 19:01:34 +0100 <monochrom> I suppose it doesn't count.
2021-01-28 19:01:34 +0100 <texasmynsted> I read the book and saw the movie
2021-01-28 19:01:40 +0100 <merijn> monochrom: ah...I dunno the movie, so I'm not sure my comment was gonna make sense :p
2021-01-28 19:02:04 +0100 <koz_> maerwald: The fact that you have to go out of your way already makes it better than a lot of other languages I could name.
2021-01-28 19:02:13 +0100 <merijn> Ender's brother/sister influencing the world is, in hindsight, the most hilariously dumb plot point in history of fiction
2021-01-28 19:02:40 +0100 <monochrom> Hrm, I think I didn't see that in the movie.
2021-01-28 19:02:54 +0100 <merijn> monochrom: Since the plot is effectively "a pair of teens write a series of blogposts, so logical and persuasive the entire world voluntarily decides to follow them"
2021-01-28 19:02:55 +0100 <texasmynsted> The more a language makes it possible to make defective code something that can not be represented, the better.
2021-01-28 19:03:06 +0100rajivr(uid269651@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uzqklzijcugoxeov) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-28 19:03:08 +0100 <monochrom> haha
2021-01-28 19:03:09 +0100 <maerwald> in retrospect, it isn't that hard... oleg wrote a paper about it: https://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0509027
2021-01-28 19:03:25 +0100 <kuribas> maerwald: it makes it hard, not impossible
2021-01-28 19:03:26 +0100 <texasmynsted> The worst programming problem is code that compiles and runs and has defects
2021-01-28 19:03:45 +0100lagothrix(~lagothrix@unaffiliated/lagothrix) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28 19:03:45 +0100 <merijn> maerwald: "Oleg wrote a paper about it" doesn't say anything about how hard something is :p
2021-01-28 19:04:04 +0100 <merijn> maerwald: Or maybe it does, but mostly due to "oleg" have a negative correlation with easy problems :p
2021-01-28 19:04:10 +0100 <maerwald> hehe
2021-01-28 19:04:14 +0100 <texasmynsted> Example: Tests do not prove that code is free of defects, it only exposes some conditions that are likely defects.
2021-01-28 19:04:26 +0100syd(~syd@cpc91646-hart11-2-0-cust432.11-3.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-28 19:04:32 +0100 <monochrom> So anyway, what are we arguing over again?
2021-01-28 19:04:43 +0100finn_elija(~finn_elij@gateway/tor-sasl/finnelija/x-67402716)
2021-01-28 19:04:46 +0100 <koz_> Honestly, "Oleg wrote a paper about it" means that it's hard for everyoen who isn't Oleg.
2021-01-28 19:04:46 +0100 <maerwald> heading of a reddit thread
2021-01-28 19:04:48 +0100 <texasmynsted> heh
2021-01-28 19:05:02 +0100 <koz_> (especially now that he's in OCaml land)
2021-01-28 19:05:07 +0100 <maerwald> and Oleg memes
2021-01-28 19:06:19 +0100 <texasmynsted> I really need to develop zettelkasten or just set of note for every time questions like these come up
2021-01-28 19:06:58 +0100 <maerwald> "how to win every argument on the internet"
2021-01-28 19:07:20 +0100 <texasmynsted> There is no winning
2021-01-28 19:08:10 +0100 <koz_> Who cares about winning?
2021-01-28 19:08:11 +0100niekvandepas(~niekvande@dhcp-077-249-088-250.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28 19:08:13 +0100 <texasmynsted> I am likely taking the wrong approach. I need to find a way to profit from the foolishness and help those who want to make the world a better place.
2021-01-28 19:08:18 +0100 <koz_> Winning internet arguments is a pointless goal.
2021-01-28 19:08:38 +0100ubert(~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf25d950e6b318fffe838f33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28 19:08:47 +0100niekvandepas(~niekvande@dhcp-077-249-088-250.chello.nl)
2021-01-28 19:08:51 +0100 <texasmynsted> I have the second part. The profit from the foolishness part requires more thought
2021-01-28 19:08:58 +0100ubert(~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf25d950e6b318fffe838f33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-01-28 19:09:05 +0100 <maerwald> an idealist?
2021-01-28 19:09:32 +0100flatmap(~flatmap@p200300dd373b2a0018f40ccf4f078e3d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-01-28 19:09:37 +0100lagothrix(~lagothrix@unaffiliated/lagothrix)
2021-01-28 19:10:11 +0100denisse_(~spaceCat@gateway/tor-sasl/alephzer0)
2021-01-28 19:10:20 +0100nojster(~noj@vmd62096.contaboserver.net)
2021-01-28 19:10:22 +0100 <maerwald> usually all that gets washed away in industry, where everything sucks, no matter the language
2021-01-28 19:10:35 +0100justanotheruser(~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28 19:10:39 +0100 <maerwald> i'm an optimist, obviously
2021-01-28 19:10:47 +0100 <texasmynsted> Maybe, or maybe I have encountered enough pain from the bs that I want to rid the world of it to save other from that suffering?
2021-01-28 19:10:47 +0100denisse(~spaceCat@gateway/tor-sasl/alephzer0) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-28 19:10:49 +0100 <koz_> maerwald: Gee, I'd never have guessed.
2021-01-28 19:10:53 +0100 <maerwald> xD
2021-01-28 19:11:19 +0100juuandyy(~juuandyy@90.106.228.121) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28 19:11:21 +0100jeremym(~jeremym@68-73-116-155.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 19:12:14 +0100 <srid> Is `heist` the recommended library for doing HTML templates in Haskell, in 2021? http://snapframework.com/docs/tutorials/heist
2021-01-28 19:12:35 +0100 <rotaerk> huh, didn't realize haskell could be used for bank robbery
2021-01-28 19:12:51 +0100 <koz_> rotaerk: Bank -> IO Money :P
2021-01-28 19:13:01 +0100 <rotaerk> hehe
2021-01-28 19:13:16 +0100 <maerwald> IO Bank -> IO Money
2021-01-28 19:13:45 +0100 <texasmynsted> recommended? I think you might find what best fits your needs.
2021-01-28 19:13:56 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28 19:14:06 +0100 <koz_> maerwald: Why is the bank in IO?
2021-01-28 19:14:08 +0100soft-warm(4408f588@ip68-8-245-136.sd.sd.cox.net) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-28 19:14:16 +0100 <koz_> Surely the correct thing here is to have a Kleisli arrow?
2021-01-28 19:14:23 +0100 <texasmynsted> Because you can never get the money out of the IO?
2021-01-28 19:14:36 +0100 <koz_> Well, money _is_ external to your program...
2021-01-28 19:14:57 +0100geekosaur(82650c7c@130.101.12.124) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-28 19:16:20 +0100 <maerwald> srid: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/blaze-html is also an option
2021-01-28 19:16:32 +0100 <monochrom> All of you are wrong. Both Bank and Money are linear: you should be using LinearTypes.
2021-01-28 19:17:22 +0100 <maerwald> money is eventually consistent in the bank though
2021-01-28 19:17:35 +0100geekosaur(82650c7c@130.101.12.124)
2021-01-28 19:17:58 +0100 <koz_> monochrom: Money being linear I can understand; when did you last consume a _bank_?
2021-01-28 19:18:09 +0100 <koz_> Are you secretly Godzilla?
2021-01-28 19:18:27 +0100 <srid> maerwald: Blaze does variable substitution, "includes", templates, etc.?
2021-01-28 19:18:39 +0100Stanley00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00)
2021-01-28 19:19:00 +0100 <monochrom> Well, you can't clone a bank...
2021-01-28 19:19:01 +0100 <srid> ... allowing users to write raw HTML, that is. (Not baked into Haskell code, like reflex-dom, lucid, etc.)
2021-01-28 19:19:05 +0100bitmapper(uid464869@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pkbnmictikqwzgfz) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-28 19:19:20 +0100 <maerwald> srid: check the tutorial
2021-01-28 19:19:21 +0100 <koz_> monochrom: ST s Bank.
2021-01-28 19:19:38 +0100 <koz_> (or rather, STRef s Bank)
2021-01-28 19:19:52 +0100 <srid> maerwald: This one? https://jaspervdj.be/blaze/tutorial.html ... I see no raw HTML here.
2021-01-28 19:20:10 +0100juuandyy(~juuandyy@90.106.228.121)
2021-01-28 19:20:14 +0100 <maerwald> yeah, it's a html combinator library, allowing templating
2021-01-28 19:20:26 +0100conal(~conal@192.145.117.109) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2021-01-28 19:21:08 +0100 <srid> Blaze forces the programmer to theme the app's HTML. What I want for the user to be able to do that.
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2021-01-28 19:22:10 +0100 <texasmynsted> I like the approach that pandoc takes, making and AST
2021-01-28 19:22:14 +0100 <texasmynsted> s/and/an/
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2021-01-28 19:22:59 +0100Stanley00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28 19:23:47 +0100 <texasmynsted> I always thought that Hamlet might be fun. https://www.yesodweb.com/book/shakespearean-templates
2021-01-28 19:23:56 +0100 <texasmynsted> I have never tried it though
2021-01-28 19:23:56 +0100forgottenone(~forgotten@176.42.21.112) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 19:28:28 +0100 <ph88^> how can i benchmark a serializing library ?
2021-01-28 19:29:52 +0100condemnedferret(~condemned@2400:ac40:700:9e27:2c9e:215f:59bf:6442)
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2021-01-28 19:30:43 +0100 <ammar2> ph88^: I'd probably use criterion
2021-01-28 19:30:56 +0100shatriff(~vitaliish@176-52-216-242.irishtelecom.com)
2021-01-28 19:32:19 +0100kritzefitz(~kritzefit@212.86.56.80) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 19:32:20 +0100 <ph88^> what can i use as input data though ?
2021-01-28 19:32:57 +0100 <geekosaur> in't that what Arbitrary instances are for?
2021-01-28 19:33:18 +0100kritzefitz(~kritzefit@212.86.56.80)
2021-01-28 19:33:37 +0100 <ammar2> presumably you have some data you're interested in serializing?
2021-01-28 19:33:42 +0100kritzefitz(~kritzefit@212.86.56.80) (Client Quit)
2021-01-28 19:33:57 +0100 <ammar2> or some common cases that the serialization library should be able to handle
2021-01-28 19:34:27 +0100 <ph88^> no i don't have it :/
2021-01-28 19:34:32 +0100conal(~conal@192.145.117.109)
2021-01-28 19:34:34 +0100 <ph88^> no use case at this moment
2021-01-28 19:35:13 +0100kritzefitz(~kritzefit@212.86.56.80)
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2021-01-28 19:35:48 +0100 <koz_> With Hedgehog, is there a way to write a generator that chooses a sublist of a list?
2021-01-28 19:35:50 +0100 <koz_> So something like
2021-01-28 19:35:57 +0100 <koz_> sublist :: [a] -> Gen [a]
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2021-01-28 19:36:54 +0100wonko7(~wonko7@78.199.183.4) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 19:37:13 +0100 <koz_> Oh, Gen.subsequence, OK.
2021-01-28 19:37:18 +0100 <ph88^> ok :P
2021-01-28 19:38:52 +0100wonko7(~wonko7@2a01:e34:ec7b:7040:40c9:55ff:fe52:3a73)
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2021-01-28 19:52:37 +0100geowiesnot(~user@i15-les02-ix2-87-89-181-157.sfr.lns.abo.bbox.fr)
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2021-01-28 20:09:19 +0100 <Sh4rPEYE> I missed out on the discussion, but hopefully some of you are still here
2021-01-28 20:09:58 +0100 <Sh4rPEYE> The course isn't really focused on webdev, I chose it mostly because web things are well supported, portable and mostly easy to setup on whicherver playtform you are using
2021-01-28 20:10:44 +0100borne(~fritjof@200116b8641b4900438d15c340c1e8fe.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28 20:10:53 +0100 <Sh4rPEYE> What IS it focused on, then? The students already know FP (from a scheme-like language I taught in the first semester), I want to introduce them to types, patter matching, and all that good Haskell stuff
2021-01-28 20:11:27 +0100 <Sh4rPEYE> (texasmynsted and maerwald)
2021-01-28 20:11:56 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28 20:12:41 +0100shatriff(~vitaliish@176-52-216-242.irishtelecom.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-01-28 20:13:16 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-01-28 20:13:41 +0100 <Sh4rPEYE> I specifically chose a typed FP language, because I think they wouldn't have seen this type of programming otherwise. I hope to broaden their horizons, so to say. And I chose project-based (game-centric) approach, because that's what the students like. And I still want them to get better at programming, you know
2021-01-28 20:14:21 +0100 <Sh4rPEYE> Purescript/Elm are just means to this end — show them something new and interesting through a project-based curriculum. That's it.
2021-01-28 20:16:05 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@135-23-192-217.cpe.pppoe.ca) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-28 20:16:49 +0100geowiesnot(~user@i15-les02-ix2-87-89-181-157.sfr.lns.abo.bbox.fr) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2021-01-28 20:32:26 +0100jneira(501ca940@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.80.28.169.64)
2021-01-28 20:32:48 +0100 <texasmynsted> Then it sounds like either are a fine choice.
2021-01-28 20:36:07 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28 20:36:45 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-01-28 20:37:58 +0100 <AWizzArd> In the example at https://ihp.digitallyinduced.com/Guide/your-first-project.html#displaying-a-post I see the call `(get #title post)`. What is #title? The hash sign looks strange.
2021-01-28 20:39:51 +0100tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
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2021-01-28 20:42:27 +0100condemnedferret(~condemned@64.120.2.177) (Quit: Quit)
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2021-01-28 20:54:04 +0100 <geekosaur> AWizzArd, field selection
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2021-01-28 21:15:31 +0100conal(~conal@192.145.117.109)
2021-01-28 21:15:49 +0100 <koz_> That website proves everything I've been saying about the web.
2021-01-28 21:15:52 +0100 <koz_> Link is broken.
2021-01-28 21:15:58 +0100 <koz_> Text looks awful and unreadable on my monitor.
2021-01-28 21:16:02 +0100 <koz_> Loads like trash.
2021-01-28 21:16:08 +0100machined1od(~machinedg@135-23-192-217.cpe.pppoe.ca)
2021-01-28 21:16:18 +0100 <koz_> It's a glorified blog, it's not that hard.
2021-01-28 21:16:24 +0100machined1od(~machinedg@135-23-192-217.cpe.pppoe.ca) (Client Quit)
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2021-01-28 21:17:53 +0100star_cloud(~star_clou@ec2-34-220-44-120.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com) (Excess Flood)
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2021-01-28 21:21:25 +0100tsrt^(tsrt@ip98-184-89-2.mc.at.cox.net) ()
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2021-01-28 21:44:55 +0100DarukFromHyrule(542e199d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.46.25.157)
2021-01-28 21:46:18 +0100cole-h(~cole-h@c-73-48-197-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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2021-01-28 21:50:27 +0100tatooine-sunset(~botond@217-197-190-248.pool.digikabel.hu)
2021-01-28 21:50:45 +0100igghibu(~igghibu@91.193.4.172)
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2021-01-28 21:51:01 +0100 <sm[m]> way to trash someone's work :)
2021-01-28 21:51:31 +0100 <koz_> sm[m]: If I made somethign like this, I'd rather someoen call me out publically.
2021-01-28 21:51:47 +0100 <koz_> _Especially_ if I was paid for it.
2021-01-28 21:51:54 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:520f:a600:db8b:92ac:b959:cbfe)
2021-01-28 21:52:08 +0100 <koz_> But that's offtopic anyway.
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2021-01-28 21:54:51 +0100 <idnar> AWizzArd: -XOverloadedLabels probably
2021-01-28 21:55:18 +0100 <Uniaika> AWizzArd: yep', Overloaded Labels
2021-01-28 21:55:25 +0100cocytus_(~cocytus@cpe-76-95-48-109.socal.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28 21:55:27 +0100Narinas(~Narinas@189.223.62.254.dsl.dyn.telnor.net)
2021-01-28 21:56:13 +0100geekosaurgot lost looking through all the record-related syntax goop
2021-01-28 21:56:27 +0100 <geekosaur> there's how many ways to do that now?
2021-01-28 21:56:29 +0100Lycurgusturned up his nose at it when he saw it was nix centric
2021-01-28 21:56:37 +0100 <koz_> geekosaur: A multitude, but less than a horde.
2021-01-28 21:56:39 +0100Lycurgus*up
2021-01-28 21:57:07 +0100Lycurguss/*up//
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2021-01-28 21:58:55 +0100 <koz_> Lycurgus: Sup? :P
2021-01-28 21:59:21 +0100 <Lycurgus> :)
2021-01-28 21:59:37 +0100DarukFromHyrulehugs ski
2021-01-28 21:59:37 +0100o1lo01ol1o(~o1lo01ol1@bl11-140-216.dsl.telepac.pt)
2021-01-28 22:01:38 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165)
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2021-01-28 22:05:19 +0100jchia__(~jchia@58.32.38.49)
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2021-01-28 22:06:48 +0100 <topos> hugging? in my haskell? it is not of god. Christian elbow bumps only pls
2021-01-28 22:07:13 +0100nhs(~nhs@c-24-20-87-79.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2021-01-28 22:08:57 +0100 <AWizzArd> idnar and Uniaika: thx, OverloadedLabels
2021-01-28 22:09:50 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165)
2021-01-28 22:09:57 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-01-28 22:10:19 +0100 <koz_> topos: Do you have a moment to hear about our lord and saviour Nyarlathotep?
2021-01-28 22:10:25 +0100Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@47.54.252.148) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 22:10:42 +0100 <topos> ah yes, the crawling chaos
2021-01-28 22:10:52 +0100 <Uniaika> 👋 topos
2021-01-28 22:10:57 +0100 <topos> hihi
2021-01-28 22:11:11 +0100Kaiepi(~Kaiepi@47.54.252.148)
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2021-01-28 22:55:46 +0100mentaal[m](mentaalmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ocjxyfmxlffojmgc)
2021-01-28 22:57:01 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2021-01-28 23:00:07 +0100niekvandepas(~niekvande@dhcp-077-249-088-250.chello.nl)
2021-01-28 23:00:18 +0100deviantfero(~deviantfe@190.150.27.58)
2021-01-28 23:00:31 +0100 <monochrom> Hugs has simpler error messages. (Speaking of hugging.)
2021-01-28 23:02:30 +0100darjeeling_(~darjeelin@122.245.219.80)
2021-01-28 23:02:57 +0100jmchael(~jmchael@87.112.235.234) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28 23:03:02 +0100 <koz_> And a really nice record system.
2021-01-28 23:03:07 +0100ph88(~ph88@ip5f5af71a.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2021-01-28 23:03:31 +0100johnw(~johnw@haskell/developer/johnw) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2021-01-28 23:03:42 +0100 <ph88> Why is there a dollar sign in front of allProperties ? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/QuickCheck-2.14.2/docs/Test-QuickCheck.html#v:allProperties
2021-01-28 23:04:02 +0100 <koz_> ph88: It's a TH splice.
2021-01-28 23:04:07 +0100 <ph88> oh ok
2021-01-28 23:04:46 +0100niekvandepas(~niekvande@dhcp-077-249-088-250.chello.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 23:06:26 +0100DarukFromHyrule(542e199d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.46.25.157) ()
2021-01-28 23:06:53 +0100 <ph88> where can i set this option ? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tasty-quickcheck-0.10.1.2/docs/Test-Tasty-QuickCheck.html#t:Qu… i don't see any function that takes IsOption
2021-01-28 23:06:58 +0100dnlkrgr(~dnlkrgr@HSI-KBW-046-005-005-235.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28 23:07:02 +0100geowiesnot(~user@i15-les02-ix2-87-89-181-157.sfr.lns.abo.bbox.fr)
2021-01-28 23:07:19 +0100 <koz_> ph88: localOption is what you seek.
2021-01-28 23:07:57 +0100 <ph88> thx
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2021-01-28 23:16:40 +0100 <ph88> where can i see the default value for an option like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tasty-quickcheck-0.10.1.2/docs/Test-Tasty-QuickCheck.html#t:Qu… ?
2021-01-28 23:16:50 +0100borne(~fritjof@200116b8641b4900438d15c340c1e8fe.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28 23:17:04 +0100 <koz_> ph88: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tasty-quickcheck-0.10.1.2/docs/src/Test.Tasty.QuickCheck.html#…
2021-01-28 23:17:08 +0100 <koz_> 100 in this case.
2021-01-28 23:17:20 +0100 <koz_> Every instance of 'IsOption' must supply 'defaultValue'.
2021-01-28 23:17:27 +0100 <ph88> thanks
2021-01-28 23:17:33 +0100 <koz_> (also, that default is far, _far_ too low for anything useful)
2021-01-28 23:17:42 +0100 <koz_> (I recommend raising it to at least 1000, and the more the better)
2021-01-28 23:17:42 +0100livvy(~livvy@gateway/tor-sasl/livvy)
2021-01-28 23:17:56 +0100jchia__(~jchia@58.32.38.49) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2021-01-28 23:18:05 +0100 <ph88> is there a function to apply a list of options ?
2021-01-28 23:18:48 +0100 <koz_> ph88: No, unless every single one of them has the same type.
2021-01-28 23:18:52 +0100 <koz_> You can do something like
2021-01-28 23:19:12 +0100 <koz_> localOptions :: [forall v . IsOption v => v] -> TestTree -> TestTree
2021-01-28 23:19:17 +0100 <koz_> But then you're on your own. :P
2021-01-28 23:20:06 +0100Heffalump(~ganesh@urchin.earth.li)
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2021-01-28 23:22:14 +0100jchia__(~jchia@jungle.jchia.net)
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2021-01-28 23:22:57 +0100 <Heffalump> anyone have a rough idea when to expect GHC 9.0 final?
2021-01-28 23:22:58 +0100 <ph88> koz_, how did you get a feeling for the amount of testcases ?
2021-01-28 23:22:59 +0100cheater1cheater
2021-01-28 23:23:00 +0100wyer(~justin_wy@102-65-159-176.dsl.web.africa) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 23:23:06 +0100 <koz_> ph88: _Did_?
2021-01-28 23:23:13 +0100 <koz_> Heffalump: Don't hold your breath.
2021-01-28 23:23:55 +0100justanotheruser(~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28 23:25:08 +0100jchia__(~jchia@jungle.jchia.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 23:25:08 +0100 <koz_> There's a page listing what remains to do before 9.0, and it has a _lot_ of unchecked entries.
2021-01-28 23:25:50 +0100 <ph88> Heffalump, i would guess around april
2021-01-28 23:25:59 +0100 <ph88> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/18216
2021-01-28 23:26:04 +0100sud0(~Death@hackspaceuy/member/sud0) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 23:26:11 +0100 <Heffalump> koz_: I've looked at that off and on, but on the other hand there was actually an RC1 which sort of implies all the genuine TODOs are done
2021-01-28 23:26:17 +0100 <ph88> koz_, yes did because you mentioned a specific number of 1000 .. and also "do" :P
2021-01-28 23:26:25 +0100 <koz_> ph88: I said _at least_.
2021-01-28 23:26:32 +0100 <koz_> That's actually quite a small number.
2021-01-28 23:26:39 +0100 <koz_> My general policy is roughly thus.
2021-01-28 23:26:41 +0100 <ph88> ye question still stands
2021-01-28 23:27:11 +0100 <Heffalump> ph88: ah, I should have looked at that ticket again before asking here, sounds like it's mainly libraries now
2021-01-28 23:27:19 +0100 <koz_> 1. Pick a number of zeroes between five and eight. 2. Run 1 followed by that many zeroes in tests. 3. Is this taking a tolerably short time? If yes, add a zero; if not, remove one. 4. Run again.
2021-01-28 23:27:32 +0100ericsagn1(~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:9ca:aef9:e139:13f6) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28 23:28:00 +0100 <ph88> how much time do you find tolerable ?
2021-01-28 23:28:06 +0100 <koz_> Basically, the larger your test count, the more likely you are to find issues, but you have to consider that test times being too long makes it likely that nobody will run them.
2021-01-28 23:28:06 +0100Stanley00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00)
2021-01-28 23:28:13 +0100 <koz_> Me personally? Probably <10 for entire suite.
2021-01-28 23:28:18 +0100 <koz_> <10s*
2021-01-28 23:28:27 +0100 <koz_> Any longer than that, and folks will look for excuses not to run it.
2021-01-28 23:28:36 +0100 <ph88> what about in CI ?
2021-01-28 23:28:47 +0100 <koz_> ph88: That's a different problem entirely and I cannot speak for it.
2021-01-28 23:28:51 +0100 <koz_> I'm not responsible for CI.
2021-01-28 23:29:06 +0100 <ph88> haha :P
2021-01-28 23:29:12 +0100 <koz_> Basically, the general idea is 'run as many tests as is tolerable'.
2021-01-28 23:29:16 +0100 <ph88> do you know how to give command line option for how many runs ?
2021-01-28 23:29:23 +0100 <koz_> ph88: Not to tasty.
2021-01-28 23:29:32 +0100jackk_(~jackk@205.178.111.134)
2021-01-28 23:29:34 +0100 <ph88> you don't know or it's not possible ?
2021-01-28 23:29:40 +0100 <koz_> I don't know.
2021-01-28 23:29:42 +0100 <ph88> ok
2021-01-28 23:29:53 +0100 <koz_> Your question was phrased 'do you know X', hence my response is about my knowledge.
2021-01-28 23:30:02 +0100 <koz_> It's likely possible, I just never needed that. :P
2021-01-28 23:31:43 +0100jchia__(~jchia@58.32.38.49)
2021-01-28 23:31:46 +0100 <ph88> feuerbach_ ? :)
2021-01-28 23:32:09 +0100borne(~fritjof@200116b8641b4900438d15c340c1e8fe.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2021-01-28 23:32:16 +0100Stanley00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28 23:33:34 +0100hyperisco(~hyperisco@104-195-141-253.cpe.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28 23:34:08 +0100 <ph88> i think i found it :P
2021-01-28 23:34:10 +0100 <ph88> wasn't that hard
2021-01-28 23:36:26 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165)
2021-01-28 23:39:34 +0100ericsagn1(~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:1bf9:a0e5:954d:9e4e)
2021-01-28 23:39:43 +0100LKoen(~LKoen@19.175.9.109.rev.sfr.net) (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”)
2021-01-28 23:40:46 +0100 <ph88> tasty looks like a nice package
2021-01-28 23:41:11 +0100shatriff(~vitaliish@176-52-216-242.irishtelecom.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28 23:41:39 +0100bogdanp(~bogdanp@188.24.80.165) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28 23:41:43 +0100shatriff(~vitaliish@176-52-216-242.irishtelecom.com)
2021-01-28 23:42:26 +0100mananamenos_(~mananamen@84.122.202.215.dyn.user.ono.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28 23:43:52 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28 23:44:25 +0100 <koz_> I agree.
2021-01-28 23:44:49 +0100son0p(~son0p@181.136.122.143) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-28 23:45:48 +0100 <ski> koz_,ph88 : `[forall v . IsOption v => v]' looks rather useless to me. perhaps you meant `[exists v. IsOption v *> v]'
2021-01-28 23:46:40 +0100 <ph88> jeez that's fancy
2021-01-28 23:46:46 +0100 <ph88> never even see *> before
2021-01-28 23:47:02 +0100 <ph88> also didn't know exists was a quantifier in haskell o_O
2021-01-28 23:48:23 +0100acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d0c704e733dd41bcd6e6128dbe.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-01-28 23:49:30 +0100 <koz_> It's not?
2021-01-28 23:49:41 +0100 <koz_> I don't believe it is at leasts.
2021-01-28 23:49:46 +0100 <koz_> s/leasts/least/
2021-01-28 23:50:03 +0100 <koz_> I was going for 'I am a list of things, and the only thing we know about them is that they have an IsOption instance.
2021-01-28 23:50:05 +0100 <koz_> '
2021-01-28 23:50:16 +0100 <koz_> I know this can be phrased somehow, but I don't remember how exactly.
2021-01-28 23:50:20 +0100neiluj(~jco@unaffiliated/neiluj) (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-28 23:50:25 +0100 <Heffalump> I think *> is a typo for =>
2021-01-28 23:50:36 +0100 <ski> no
2021-01-28 23:50:44 +0100 <Heffalump> oh, ok
2021-01-28 23:50:48 +0100 <ski> both `exists' and `*>' are pseudo-Haskell
2021-01-28 23:51:36 +0100 <ski> (iirc, LHC does support `exists', but only to the left of a function arrow (the trivial case). perhaps it's also allowed in type synonyms, provided you only use them to the left of a function arrow)
2021-01-28 23:51:59 +0100 <ski> koz_ : yes, sounds like you meant my version
2021-01-28 23:52:12 +0100 <koz_> ski: Yep, so how do you phrase it in non-pseudo-Haskell?
2021-01-28 23:52:17 +0100niekvandepas(~niekvande@dhcp-077-249-088-250.chello.nl)
2021-01-28 23:52:20 +0100 <koz_> Do you need to do a GADT or something?
2021-01-28 23:52:26 +0100 <Heffalump> koz_: at worst you could write a GADT to wrap it, yes
2021-01-28 23:52:38 +0100 <Heffalump> that's almost certainly the best strategy too
2021-01-28 23:53:06 +0100 <ski> i find it useful to discuss existentials in terms of `exists' and `*>', because, imho, it's often clearer to talk about it, in these terms, rather than immediately jumping to one of the two encodings of them in Haskell ("existentially quantified data constructor" vs. CPS encoding)
2021-01-28 23:53:22 +0100 <Heffalump> forall v . IsOption v => v is "value" (actually really a function) that can construct a 'v' for any possible type that is an instance of IsOption
2021-01-28 23:53:44 +0100 <koz_> Yeah, definitely my bad then.
2021-01-28 23:53:51 +0100 <ski> and yes, you'd either need `ExistentialQuantification' (a misnomer, imho) or `GADTs' .. or else `Rank2Types' (which nowadays does the same as `RankNTypes')
2021-01-28 23:55:58 +0100jchia__(~jchia@58.32.38.49) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28 23:56:05 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2021-01-28 23:56:24 +0100 <ski> koz_ : replace `exists v. IsOption v *> v' by a new type, say `SomeOption'
2021-01-28 23:57:46 +0100 <ski> koz_ : btw, you should note that `... -> (forall a. ..a..)' is logically equivalent to `forall a. (... -> ..a..)', and `(exists a. ..a..) -> ...' is logically equivalent to `forall a. (..a.. -> ...)'
2021-01-28 23:57:52 +0100ubert(~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf25d950e6b318fffe838f33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28 23:58:28 +0100 <ski> (and similarly, `T -> (C => U)' is equivalent to `C => (T -> U)', and `(C *> T) -> U' is also equivalent to `C => (T -> U)')
2021-01-28 23:58:39 +0100 <koz_> Hmm, interesting.
2021-01-28 23:58:50 +0100 <Heffalump> what are you trying to convey with *> ?
2021-01-28 23:59:08 +0100 <ski> (a value of type `C => T' is a value such that, if *you* (the user/consumer/caller) provides evidence for `C', then you may use the value as if having type `T')