IRCBrowse

2020/09/16

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2020-09-16 17:10:28 +0200solonarv(~solonarv@astrasbourg-653-1-186-165.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr)
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2020-09-16 17:38:00 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@216-19-190-182.dyn.novuscom.net)
2020-09-16 17:39:04 +0200 <sm[m]> Nice reference article about helping on irc, from #python: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24467731
2020-09-16 17:41:57 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 17:43:36 +0200 <ezzieyguywuf> sm[m]: nice article. what's wrong with python pickles though?
2020-09-16 17:43:54 +0200 <ezzieyguywuf> in fact, a lot of the things mentioned in the article are things I've found generally helpful in the professional workplace as well
2020-09-16 17:44:08 +0200 <sm[m]> they're fragile, I expect ?
2020-09-16 17:44:40 +0200 <ezzieyguywuf> shrug
2020-09-16 17:45:11 +0200 <sshine> like PatternSynonyms, is there a way to get value constructor synonyms?
2020-09-16 17:45:15 +0200gestone(~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 17:46:45 +0200 <sshine> ah, PatternSynonyms does give me that. I just didn't import the right module. d'oh. :)
2020-09-16 17:47:15 +0200Dara(~Dara_Simc@gateway/tor-sasl/aaliya)
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2020-09-16 17:49:01 +0200 <ezzieyguywuf> does hledger handle securities as well as (or better?!) than beancount?
2020-09-16 17:50:37 +0200Kaivo(~Kaivo@104-200-86-99.mc.derytele.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-09-16 17:50:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> Cale: http://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/haskell
2020-09-16 17:51:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> haven't imported old stuff yet, but apparently ircbrowse has built-in support for reading znc logs, and I happen to know how znc works :)
2020-09-16 17:51:25 +0200 <sm[m]> ezzieyguywuf: I believe beancount has a few more advanced features eg for automatically reporting gains but I'm not quite sure of the actual features and their usability
2020-09-16 17:51:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> the bot is ircbrowse_tom
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2020-09-16 17:52:47 +0200gxt(~gxt@gateway/tor-sasl/gxt)
2020-09-16 17:53:28 +0200hackageghc-lib-parser 8.10.2.20200916 - The GHC API, decoupled from GHC versions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-lib-parser-8.10.2.20200916 (shayne_fletcher)
2020-09-16 17:53:48 +0200shatriff(~vitaliish@176.52.219.10) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-16 17:54:28 +0200hackageghc-lib 8.10.2.20200916 - The GHC API, decoupled from GHC versions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-lib-8.10.2.20200916 (shayne_fletcher)
2020-09-16 17:55:20 +0200 <sm[m]> ezzieyguywuf: I have some newer tips than what's on the website, if needed
2020-09-16 17:55:51 +0200n3glv(~n3glv@185.163.110.116)
2020-09-16 17:55:56 +0200xff0x_(~fox@217.110.198.158) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-09-16 17:56:20 +0200 <ezzieyguywuf> sm[m]: which website?! lol
2020-09-16 17:56:50 +0200 <Cale> tomsmeding: nice! There also used to be fun stats pages as I recall, but I forget how to get to them.
2020-09-16 17:56:57 +0200 <tomsmeding> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-09-16 17:57:00 +0200 <sm[m]> sorry, speaking about hledger now
2020-09-16 17:57:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> I just cloned it from the github page
2020-09-16 17:57:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> perhaps there was development locally?
2020-09-16 17:57:52 +0200 <Cale> Ah, clicking on a nick takes you to a route for that nick
2020-09-16 17:57:56 +0200 <ezzieyguywuf> sm[m]: ah, ok. yea I haven't actually started converting my journal to hledger or anything, just an idle thought
2020-09-16 17:58:04 +0200 <Cale> but it seems to redirect back to the top level list for some reason
2020-09-16 17:58:34 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-239.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2020-09-16 17:59:08 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc96984-rdng25-2-0-cust109.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-09-16 17:59:08 +0200AlterEgo-(~ladew@124-198-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2020-09-16 17:59:32 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc96984-rdng25-2-0-cust109.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2020-09-16 17:59:49 +0200 <ezzieyguywuf> 😍 I'm watching this video, I think I miht switch to xmonad from i3 https://youtu.be/3noK4GTmyMw
2020-09-16 18:00:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> Cale: perhaps there is some reliance left on being on the old ircbrowse.net domain, I'll see if I can find anything
2020-09-16 18:00:40 +0200twopoint718(~cjw@fsf/member/twopoint718) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2020-09-16 18:06:56 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-73-24-27-54.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 18:06:57 +0200hackageghc-lib-parser 8.10.1.20200916 - The GHC API, decoupled from GHC versions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-lib-parser-8.10.1.20200916 (shayne_fletcher)
2020-09-16 18:07:53 +0200eric_(~eric@191.19.57.173)
2020-09-16 18:07:57 +0200hackageghc-lib 8.10.1.20200916 - The GHC API, decoupled from GHC versions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-lib-8.10.1.20200916 (shayne_fletcher)
2020-09-16 18:08:02 +0200eric_(~eric@191.19.57.173) (Read error: No route to host)
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2020-09-16 18:11:43 +0200Volt_(~Volt_@c-73-145-164-70.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 18:12:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> Cale: clicking on a nick now takes you somewhere
2020-09-16 18:12:13 +0200elliott_(~elliott_@pool-71-114-77-65.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-09-16 18:12:20 +0200 <tomsmeding> not sure how to update that data though
2020-09-16 18:12:27 +0200elliott_(~elliott_@pool-71-114-77-65.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
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2020-09-16 18:24:27 +0200Sunblaze211(~sanjay@116.72.69.116) ()
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2020-09-16 18:36:40 +0200Guest_88(4e1fbb56@78.31.187.86)
2020-09-16 18:37:26 +0200Dara(~Dara_Simc@gateway/tor-sasl/aaliya) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-16 18:37:30 +0200 <Guest_88> Hello?
2020-09-16 18:38:00 +0200 <geekosaur> hello
2020-09-16 18:38:11 +0200knupfer(~Thunderbi@200116b82ca8150035b8cfb2c5bc8e11.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2020-09-16 18:38:24 +0200 <Guest_88> is there anyone who could help me with ghc installation on macos?
2020-09-16 18:40:12 +0200rapskalian(~user@2601:804:8400:5750:6d07:cb01:64a9:36bb) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-09-16 18:41:15 +0200 <sm[m]> sure Guest_88, what problem are you having
2020-09-16 18:41:38 +0200tzh(~tzh@2601:448:c500:5300::ad1c)
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2020-09-16 18:55:28 +0200thunderrd(~thunderrd@183.182.112.240) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-16 18:56:53 +0200thunderrd(~thunderrd@183.182.112.240)
2020-09-16 18:59:31 +0200 <maerwald> well, the tension is unbearable now
2020-09-16 19:04:48 +0200 <Guest_88> sm[m] I'm trying to install ghc8.8 on my system using brew, but for some reason i cant seem to be able to link it so i can use it in shell. ghc 8.10 is already present on the system and im currently using it
2020-09-16 19:05:21 +0200 <sm[m]> what reason does brew give ?
2020-09-16 19:05:35 +0200eric(~eric@2804:431:c7d4:b75:ca9:61ff:102f:e332)
2020-09-16 19:05:50 +0200eric(~eric@2804:431:c7d4:b75:ca9:61ff:102f:e332) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-16 19:06:22 +0200 <Guest_88> that 8.8 is keg only and i need to link it using --force
2020-09-16 19:07:16 +0200 <sm[m]> I see.. not that you already have some files in the way ?
2020-09-16 19:07:24 +0200geekosaur(42d52102@66.213.33.2) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-16 19:08:55 +0200 <Guest_88> Warning: ghc@8.8 is keg-only and must be linked with --forceIf you need to have this software first in your PATH instead consider running:
2020-09-16 19:09:08 +0200geekosaur(42d52102@66.213.33.2)
2020-09-16 19:09:08 +0200 <Guest_88> and there is a command for PATH then
2020-09-16 19:09:22 +0200 <Guest_88> but i tried running it, nothing happens
2020-09-16 19:09:46 +0200Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362)
2020-09-16 19:10:00 +0200 <sm[m]> are you doing brew install ghc@8.8 ? And you also have done brew install ghc to get 8.10 ?
2020-09-16 19:10:27 +0200 <Guest_88> yes
2020-09-16 19:10:30 +0200 <Guest_88> to both questions
2020-09-16 19:10:51 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-73-24-27-54.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-16 19:10:55 +0200Lord_of_Life(~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-16 19:11:08 +0200Lord_of_Life_Lord_of_Life
2020-09-16 19:11:32 +0200 <sm[m]> I think that's going to be inconvenient, brew assumes only one ghc in PATH at a time. You'd have to rename one or something. Have you considered installing versioned ghcs with stack or ghcup ?
2020-09-16 19:11:54 +0200 <sm[m]> it's just an idea, not necessarily advice
2020-09-16 19:12:31 +0200 <Guest_88> tried ghcup
2020-09-16 19:13:45 +0200 <Guest_88> but it didnt install correctly for some reason
2020-09-16 19:14:03 +0200 <maerwald> Guest_88: in what sense
2020-09-16 19:14:08 +0200 <sm[m]> let me introduce you to my colleague maerwald :)
2020-09-16 19:14:25 +0200 <Guest_88> when tried to check ghc --version or ghci, it said that some directories are not present
2020-09-16 19:14:45 +0200 <maerwald> Guest_88: did you add ~/.ghcup/bin to your PATH?
2020-09-16 19:15:07 +0200 <maerwald> you seem to have various ghcs floating around
2020-09-16 19:15:16 +0200 <maerwald> so it's not clear which you ran
2020-09-16 19:15:24 +0200 <Guest_88> yes, exactly
2020-09-16 19:15:48 +0200 <Guest_88> and when i installed with brew and linked it, everything went into places, but now im stuck with 8.10
2020-09-16 19:15:58 +0200 <maerwald> ~/.ghcup/bin/ghci should work
2020-09-16 19:16:11 +0200balbirs(~balbirs__@bilbo.ozlabs.org) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-09-16 19:16:44 +0200v0d1ch(~v0d1ch@cable-178-148-120-241.dynamic.sbb.rs) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-09-16 19:16:47 +0200 <sm[m]> and remove or unlink all the brew ghcs ?
2020-09-16 19:17:05 +0200 <Guest_88> to the question earlier, did i add path - yes, i think so, when ghcup installation prompted me to add it, i answered Yes
2020-09-16 19:17:14 +0200 <maerwald> that doesn't mean it worked
2020-09-16 19:17:26 +0200 <Guest_88> oh wow
2020-09-16 19:17:31 +0200 <Guest_88> that command worked
2020-09-16 19:17:34 +0200fendor__(~fendor@e237-037.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-16 19:17:40 +0200 <Guest_88> im using 8.8
2020-09-16 19:18:00 +0200 <Guest_88> but now how do i set it as default or something
2020-09-16 19:18:09 +0200 <maerwald> Guest_88: what worked?
2020-09-16 19:18:22 +0200 <Guest_88> ~/.ghcup/bin/ghci
2020-09-16 19:18:29 +0200bitmagie(~Thunderbi@200116b80627700048edc627a4bede6a.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2020-09-16 19:18:29 +0200 <maerwald> what shell are you running?
2020-09-16 19:19:12 +0200 <Guest_88> bash? is that what you are asking
2020-09-16 19:19:23 +0200 <yushyin> echo $SHELL
2020-09-16 19:19:41 +0200 <maerwald> add "[[ -f ~/.bashrc ]] && source ~/.bashrc" to ~/.bash_profile and "source ~/.ghcup/env" to ~/.bashrc
2020-09-16 19:19:52 +0200 <maerwald> then open a new shell
2020-09-16 19:20:49 +0200 <Guest_88> am i doing something wrong, or add isnt a command?
2020-09-16 19:21:10 +0200 <maerwald> add is english language here
2020-09-16 19:21:11 +0200 <geekosaur> add is an instruction to you,, not a shell command
2020-09-16 19:21:20 +0200 <Guest_88> :DD
2020-09-16 19:22:12 +0200hyperisco(~hyperisco@d192-186-117-226.static.comm.cgocable.net)
2020-09-16 19:23:42 +0200kleisli_(~kleisli@172-8-147-49.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-09-16 19:25:04 +0200bitmagie(~Thunderbi@200116b80627700048edc627a4bede6a.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2020-09-16 19:25:56 +0200kleisli__(~kleisli@2600:1700:4640:c560:fc:6ecc:a66c:8348) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-09-16 19:26:42 +0200shutdown_-h_now(~arjan@2001:1c06:2d0b:2312:b9db:47c8:ef51:d889) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2020-09-16 19:27:50 +0200 <monochrom> Wait, when did https://discourse.haskell.org/ happen?!
2020-09-16 19:27:51 +0200 <Guest_88> nevermind, managed to link it with brew properly
2020-09-16 19:27:55 +0200 <Guest_88> thank you guys
2020-09-16 19:28:24 +0200 <geekosaur> there was a discussion about it maybe a half a year back on -cafe, iirc
2020-09-16 19:29:06 +0200 <geekosaur> or a year back maybe
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2020-09-16 19:30:52 +0200 <sm[m]> Guest_88: np
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2020-09-16 20:20:27 +0200hackageautoexporter 1.1.19 - Automatically re-export modules. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/autoexporter-1.1.19 (fozworth)
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2020-09-16 20:31:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> merijn: sm[m]: http://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/haskell works? kind of?
2020-09-16 20:31:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> the codebase had some weirdness in that certain things were disabled or didn't really work; I guess the previous hoster had some uncommitted changes
2020-09-16 20:31:42 +0200 <tomsmeding> I'm currently auto-updating the info every hour
2020-09-16 20:32:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> if there's anything that you expect to work from past experience but that does not work now, please tell
2020-09-16 20:33:53 +0200 <sm[m]> it lives again! great work tomsmeding
2020-09-16 20:34:26 +0200 <sm[m]> maybe update the source link
2020-09-16 20:37:22 +0200pera(~pera@unaffiliated/pera)
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2020-09-16 20:45:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> working on the footer :)
2020-09-16 20:45:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> also there were lots of header tabs that were commented out, having a look at those
2020-09-16 20:46:20 +0200cole-h(~cole-h@c-73-48-197-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2020-09-16 20:46:35 +0200elliott_(~elliott_@pool-71-114-77-65.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2020-09-16 20:47:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> footer has been fixed, and the header links seem to work sm[m]
2020-09-16 20:47:44 +0200tomsmedingwonders why that stuff was commented out? was it disabled explicitly at some point?
2020-09-16 20:47:53 +0200__Joker(~Joker@180.151.106.108)
2020-09-16 20:48:44 +0200Ranhir(~Ranhir@157.97.53.139) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2020-09-16 20:51:29 +0200 <sm[m]> tomsmeding++
2020-09-16 20:52:19 +0200__Joker(~Joker@180.151.106.108) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-09-16 20:52:35 +0200 <sm[m]> woohoo, now a chance to fix some things that always bugged me, like the page size selector :)
2020-09-16 20:53:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> lol
2020-09-16 20:53:07 +0200 <tomsmeding> there's literally a list of page sizes
2020-09-16 20:53:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> so changing that is trivial
2020-09-16 20:54:33 +0200sm[m]tries to decipher the timestamps
2020-09-16 20:55:11 +0200Ranhir(~Ranhir@157.97.53.139)
2020-09-16 20:57:59 +0200 <sm[m]> I think the timezone is 2 or 3 hours off
2020-09-16 20:59:08 +0200Volt_(~Volt_@c-73-145-164-70.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) (Quit: )
2020-09-16 20:59:46 +0200 <sm[m]> I think it used to update quite often, which could be handy when you got disconnected or didn't trust your chat client
2020-09-16 20:59:54 +0200twopoint718(~cjw@fsf/member/twopoint718)
2020-09-16 21:00:21 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@216-19-190-182.dyn.novuscom.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2020-09-16 21:05:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> ah right server is in UTC but receives stuff from the irc server in GMT+2 which is the timezone where the server is located
2020-09-16 21:06:22 +0200lembot(~lembot@168.196.201.63)
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2020-09-16 21:06:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> interesting that it does show shifted-correct timestamps for you, who are nowhere near europe in terms of timezones
2020-09-16 21:07:05 +0200kritzefitz(~kritzefit@212.86.56.80)
2020-09-16 21:07:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> does ircbrowse actively adjust timestamps according to the timezone of the client browser?
2020-09-16 21:09:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> oh right I didn't realise it's lazy and just writes +0000
2020-09-16 21:10:06 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@216.81.48.202)
2020-09-16 21:10:14 +0200 <geekosaur> fwiw I show 2 hours forward from my current timezone (UTC-4) which suggests UTC-2
2020-09-16 21:10:30 +0200 <geekosaur> that is, something timestamped 14:57 locally is 16:57 in ircbrowse
2020-09-16 21:10:33 +0200Rudd0(~Rudd0@185.189.115.108) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-16 21:11:01 +0200gestone(~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
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2020-09-16 21:12:42 +0200lembot(~lembot@45.232.32.247)
2020-09-16 21:13:10 +0200Axman6(~Axman6@pdpc/supporter/student/Axman6) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2020-09-16 21:13:24 +0200Axman6(~Axman6@pdpc/supporter/student/Axman6)
2020-09-16 21:14:10 +0200 <sm[m]> does anyone know a way to copy the current file path and/or line number in vs code ?
2020-09-16 21:15:03 +0200 <sm[m]> tomsmeding: I'm looking at upstream/snap-app/src/Snap/App/Controller.hs:91 and wondering if that's where the default page size of 35 comes from
2020-09-16 21:15:53 +0200 <sm[m]> and what happens if the page sizes at Controllers.hs:147 don't include that number
2020-09-16 21:16:08 +0200 <sm[m]> I'd test, but the build plan looks too hairy right now
2020-09-16 21:16:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: my brain is operating at reduced capacity; for me ircbrowse reports everything in UTC, but two hours earlier than the event actually happened; is that consistent with what you see?
2020-09-16 21:16:15 +0200gestone(~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-16 21:16:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> building is actually no harder than 'stack build'
2020-09-16 21:16:37 +0200 <tomsmeding> well, and waiting
2020-09-16 21:16:54 +0200tsrt^(tsrt@ip98-184-89-2.mc.at.cox.net)
2020-09-16 21:16:54 +0200 <sm[m]> that's hard when it's lts-3 and you have a mac with no spare disk space :)
2020-09-16 21:16:57 +0200 <geekosaur> it claims +0000 but 2 hours ahead of me or 2 hours behind UTC
2020-09-16 21:17:43 +0200 <geekosaur> >> that is, something timestamped 14:57 locally is 16:57 in ircbrowse
2020-09-16 21:18:10 +0200 <geekosaur> 14:57 being UTC-4, EDT
2020-09-16 21:18:45 +0200andreas303(~andreas@gateway/tor-sasl/andreas303) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2020-09-16 21:42:01 +0200ircbrowse_tom(~ircbrowse@64.225.78.177)
2020-09-16 21:42:02 +0200Server+CLnt
2020-09-16 21:42:13 +0200 <rustisafungus> so what is a type, and is there any practical phenomenon which creates a reasonable upper bound on the number of distinct types, or which limits the "growth" of types?
2020-09-16 21:43:58 +0200 <tomsmeding> sm[m]: geekosaur: I believe the timezone setting of ircbrowse is correct now
2020-09-16 21:44:43 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@gateway/tor-sasl/chaitrex) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-09-16 21:45:12 +0200 <geekosaur> looks right to me, yes
2020-09-16 21:45:12 +0200 <Cale> rustisafungus: One way to think about them is that types are properties of programs for which the program itself can be interpreted as a proof.
2020-09-16 21:45:53 +0200 <Cale> rustisafungus: (and checked by a machine)
2020-09-16 21:46:51 +0200nfd(~nfd9001@c-67-183-38-33.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 21:47:10 +0200ChaiTRex(~ChaiTRex@gateway/tor-sasl/chaitrex)
2020-09-16 21:47:14 +0200 <rustisafungus> this question will make you laugh, but is there any way to think about the question of "how many types are there?"
2020-09-16 21:47:28 +0200hackagelti13 0.1.2.0 - Core functionality for LTI 1.3. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lti13-0.1.2.0 (jade)
2020-09-16 21:47:40 +0200 <dolio> Infinitely many.
2020-09-16 21:47:40 +0200 <Cale> I mean, unless the answer is 1, usually it's infinitely many.
2020-09-16 21:47:54 +0200 <sm[m]> tomsmeding: what would you think about hiding all the connect/disconnects
2020-09-16 21:47:59 +0200 <Cale> It obviously depends on which type system we're talking about
2020-09-16 21:48:05 +0200 <tomsmeding> sm[m]: yes
2020-09-16 21:48:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> will require some finicking with the pagination though
2020-09-16 21:48:26 +0200 <Cale> It's like asking how many mathematical statements there are
2020-09-16 21:48:26 +0200 <rustisafungus> right but that's a boring answer. for example we could say that there are infinitely many physical units, when in fact there are just a few fundamental physical units from which all physical units are derived using simple operations
2020-09-16 21:48:27 +0200 <monochrom> "what is" questions are usually not worth answering.
2020-09-16 21:48:28 +0200hackageyesod-auth-lti13 0.1.2.0 - A yesod-auth plugin for LTI 1.3 https://hackage.haskell.org/package/yesod-auth-lti13-0.1.2.0 (jade)
2020-09-16 21:49:06 +0200 <monochrom> "how many types" is also a useless question in the first place.
2020-09-16 21:49:33 +0200 <rustisafungus> i don't agree, because Cale's answer says that if your program has more types, then it has more proven constraints imposed/checked by the compiler
2020-09-16 21:49:42 +0200 <monochrom> "what are the rules of making type expressions" is a much more useful question. Now it reveals structure.
2020-09-16 21:49:48 +0200 <Cale> If the answer were not infinity and were instead 100 billion, what would you do with that information?
2020-09-16 21:50:53 +0200Guest86335(~zv@2600:8801:c300:3160:725:f34a:154c:cdd0) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2020-09-16 21:50:58 +0200nfd9001(~nfd9001@c-67-183-38-33.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-16 21:51:06 +0200 <geekosaur> rustisafungus, you can meaningfully ask how many types a given program makes use of, but less so how many types there are globally
2020-09-16 21:51:15 +0200 <monochrom> Likewise, "how many binary trees?" "infinitely many" is useless. "how to define/generate binary trees by structural induction" is the useful one.
2020-09-16 21:52:09 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-16 21:52:16 +0200 <monochrom> We can also set up pathological type systems in which infinitely many types express no invariant at all so the counterpoint is moot.
2020-09-16 21:52:22 +0200 <rustisafungus> so is there a small collection of laws for defining "all possible" types?
2020-09-16 21:52:41 +0200gestone(~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 21:52:45 +0200 <Cale> In essentially any practical type system, yeah
2020-09-16 21:53:15 +0200 <rustisafungus> right but i am thinking in the sense of the fact that there was a one page probabilistic proof of fermat's last theorem while the mathematicians took forever to produce a lengthy and incomprehensible proof,... that is to say i am fine with heuristic/empirical/semi-empirical arguments
2020-09-16 21:53:28 +0200 <rustisafungus> Cale: so where do i find those laws?
2020-09-16 21:53:38 +0200 <Cale> For which type theory?
2020-09-16 21:53:42 +0200faker(bd0f81a2@189.15.129.162)
2020-09-16 21:53:53 +0200 <rustisafungus> i don't know,... i don't even know what a type theory is or what distinguishes one from another
2020-09-16 21:54:39 +0200 <geekosaur> maybe that's the wrong angle. start with standard Haskell ADTs
2020-09-16 21:55:03 +0200 <Cale> Yeah, I guess I should make sure you're not just asking about Haskell
2020-09-16 21:55:23 +0200 <rustisafungus> no i am asking more broadly
2020-09-16 21:55:25 +0200 <geekosaur> where your type theory is the one chosen by the language designer, since most users won't be that interested in that particular level of detail
2020-09-16 21:55:35 +0200 <dolio> Algebraic types are already a schema for infinitely many acceptable definitions, though.
2020-09-16 21:55:41 +0200 <monochrom> I'll now refer you to two big volumes, "types and programming languages" and "practical foundations for programming languages". Pick one of them and study. I won't answer further questions until you have finished at least one. Your current questions and I bet the next 70 ones are all answered there.
2020-09-16 21:55:41 +0200 <Cale> But a good book recommendation might be "Types and Programming Languages" by Benjamin Pierce
2020-09-16 21:56:00 +0200cosimone(~cosimone@2001:b07:ae5:db26:b248:7aff:feea:34b6)
2020-09-16 21:56:59 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 21:57:24 +0200gestone(~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-16 21:58:50 +0200 <Cale> https://github.com/MPRI/M2-4-2/blob/master/Types%20and%20Programming%20Languages.pdf -- apparently it's just on github now
2020-09-16 21:59:01 +0200 <rustisafungus> yeah i was trying to find it :-P thanks
2020-09-16 21:59:05 +0200 <Cale> (this is probably not official)
2020-09-16 22:00:06 +0200jb55(~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-16 22:00:10 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@d67-193-126-196.home3.cgocable.net)
2020-09-16 22:00:30 +0200jb55(~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55)
2020-09-16 22:01:52 +0200 <monochrom> Now I'm at a moral crossroad of "should I keep a copy?"
2020-09-16 22:02:38 +0200 <Cale> rustisafungus: There are programming languages like Coq and Agda whose types can encode all the statements of mathematics, and whose programs can literally be regarded as proofs of those statements, and where the fundamental building blocks of expressions correspond directly with logical rules.
2020-09-16 22:04:23 +0200supercoven(~Supercove@dsl-hkibng32-54fb54-166.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:04:28 +0200 <Cale> I own a paper copy, but it's nice to have the PDF :P
2020-09-16 22:04:37 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah that's fair.
2020-09-16 22:05:34 +0200 <Cale> Apparently it's just been sitting there for 5 years as well, and that repo is linked with Xavier Leroy's course... so maybe nobody has any issue with it
2020-09-16 22:06:26 +0200balbirs(~balbirs__@ozlabs.org)
2020-09-16 22:06:54 +0200stree(~stree@50-108-115-67.adr01.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-16 22:07:28 +0200hackagelti13 0.1.2.1 - Core functionality for LTI 1.3. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lti13-0.1.2.1 (jade)
2020-09-16 22:08:17 +0200stree(~stree@50-108-115-67.adr01.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
2020-09-16 22:08:28 +0200hackageyesod-auth-lti13 0.1.2.1 - A yesod-auth plugin for LTI 1.3 https://hackage.haskell.org/package/yesod-auth-lti13-0.1.2.1 (jade)
2020-09-16 22:09:36 +0200geekosaur(42d52102@66.213.33.2) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-16 22:10:39 +0200lc_(~lc@94.198.42.164)
2020-09-16 22:10:42 +0200 <lc_> bro
2020-09-16 22:10:46 +0200 <lc_> type classes are just interfaces
2020-09-16 22:11:10 +0200 <lc_> what's with the fancy name
2020-09-16 22:11:18 +0200 <Graypup_> i mean kinda but you can't get `this` in them afaik
2020-09-16 22:11:36 +0200 <monochrom> I agree. We don't need the fancy name "interface".
2020-09-16 22:11:49 +0200josh(~josh@c-67-164-104-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 22:12:15 +0200 <Graypup_> trying to get my hackage docs to build on their antique ghc863
2020-09-16 22:12:19 +0200 <monochrom> "interfaces" are just type classes.
2020-09-16 22:12:47 +0200juuandyy(~juuandyy@90.166.144.65)
2020-09-16 22:13:22 +0200 <lc_> I can't believe I didnt realize this before
2020-09-16 22:13:34 +0200gestone(~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 22:13:52 +0200juuandyy(~juuandyy@90.166.144.65) (Client Quit)
2020-09-16 22:14:06 +0200xff0x_(~fox@2001:1a81:52d0:6b00:59b8:5104:189c:a88e) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:14:09 +0200 <sm[m]> aren't they also what some languages call "traits"
2020-09-16 22:14:13 +0200 <Graypup_> ........ where's ghc883 and other versions with working `text` package? https://i.imgur.com/Iz58tKy.png
2020-09-16 22:14:17 +0200 <Graypup_> the heck hackage
2020-09-16 22:14:46 +0200 <Graypup_> sm[m], a trait, at least in rust, is quite different from an interface because you can implement it on someone else's type
2020-09-16 22:15:10 +0200AlterEgo-(~ladew@124-198-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-09-16 22:15:14 +0200mariatsji(~mariatsji@2a01:79d:53aa:c66c:59f2:1ee3:fe3e:b848)
2020-09-16 22:15:30 +0200 <Graypup_> so you can put extensions on standard library types, containers, etc by making a trait and impl'ing it for them
2020-09-16 22:15:36 +0200xff0x_(~fox@2001:1a81:52d0:6b00:59b8:5104:189c:a88e)
2020-09-16 22:15:59 +0200 <rustisafungus> so i read the first chapter of pierce and barely glanced at the second and third
2020-09-16 22:16:18 +0200unlink__(~unlink2@p200300ebcf25bd0068eb9d9c94da2a17.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-16 22:16:20 +0200 <dolio> That doesn't seem like the agreement.
2020-09-16 22:16:37 +0200unlink__(~unlink2@p200300ebcf25bd0068eb9d9c94da2a17.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2020-09-16 22:16:58 +0200 <rustisafungus> do i understand correctly that he is saying that a type system is essentially a usable *but inferior* way of proving properties of a program?
2020-09-16 22:18:02 +0200gestone(~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:18:16 +0200 <hyperisco> lc_, good troll
2020-09-16 22:18:55 +0200thc202(~thc202@unaffiliated/thc202) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:19:02 +0200 <lc_> literally not trolling
2020-09-16 22:19:07 +0200 <lc_> they're literally just interfaces
2020-09-16 22:19:19 +0200 <Graypup_> ..... what the heck hackage https://hackage.haskell.org/upload the script here doesn't find the docs for the /other/ package it *just* built
2020-09-16 22:19:47 +0200mariatsji(~mariatsji@2a01:79d:53aa:c66c:59f2:1ee3:fe3e:b848) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:20:16 +0200 <sm[m]> Graypup_: isn't that something we can also do with haskell typeclasses
2020-09-16 22:20:27 +0200 <hyperisco> rustisafungus, don't know where you've got on this, but there are as many types as there are naturals, usually
2020-09-16 22:20:39 +0200 <Graypup_> sm[m], yes, but not with interfaces
2020-09-16 22:21:07 +0200 <Graypup_> also there's some higher kinded types stuff that traits in rust don't do
2020-09-16 22:21:19 +0200dead10cc(~dead10cc@2607:fea8:2c60:2d2:b401:59a1:1f1b:bfe)
2020-09-16 22:21:24 +0200 <Graypup_> you couldn't have a trait Monad I don't think but I don't know why
2020-09-16 22:21:28 +0200 <hyperisco> rustisafungus, which is why in some type theory papers the discussion just orients around Nat
2020-09-16 22:22:04 +0200 <tomsmeding> lc_: in Haskell, as a user of a library that defines a particular type T, you can define new class C and make T and instance of that class C
2020-09-16 22:22:09 +0200sm[m]persists in the belief that typeclass/interface/trait are more or less synonyms, then
2020-09-16 22:22:25 +0200 <rustisafungus> hyperisco: sounds nice at some fundamental level, but if i ingest code from github and apply some kind of rule which can identify "identical types" and then another rule which can identify "simple rearrangements/compositions/etc of previously encountered types" then i might see a slowing or tapering off of encountering of new types as i ingest more kilobytes of say, haskell
2020-09-16 22:22:31 +0200 <sm[m]> uh, except interface doesn't have implementation, my bad
2020-09-16 22:22:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> how would you do that in, e.g., Java/C++ or Go, which I think is the class of languages where "interface" means something
2020-09-16 22:22:46 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-09-16 22:22:55 +0200 <hyperisco> rustisafungus, at what level are you looking for an answer?
2020-09-16 22:23:17 +0200 <Graypup_> interface /can/ have implementation as of java 8 iirc
2020-09-16 22:23:25 +0200 <Graypup_> (default implementation)
2020-09-16 22:23:32 +0200 <rustisafungus> something a mortal amateur like me can understand
2020-09-16 22:23:37 +0200 <Graypup_> which allows for a gross misuse of them to produce multiple inheritance lololol
2020-09-16 22:23:38 +0200 <lc_> You define an interface with a certain set of internal methods. Then other library users define their own implemmentations of that interface by filling in the method descriptions
2020-09-16 22:23:43 +0200 <dolio> 'As many types as there are naturals' is kind of a dubious answer.
2020-09-16 22:23:54 +0200 <lc_> You dont need multiple inheritance or anything. Go has this. Every language has this
2020-09-16 22:24:01 +0200 <hyperisco> lc_, I can't count how many times this discussion has occurred on this channel. They're significantly not the same, assuming we're saying "interface" as in Java or something
2020-09-16 22:24:23 +0200 <Graypup_> interface is a distinctly OO thing for sure
2020-09-16 22:24:49 +0200 <lc_> https://golang.org/pkg/io/#Reader
2020-09-16 22:24:57 +0200 <lc_> ^ example of type class
2020-09-16 22:25:10 +0200 <hyperisco> there are few languages that have type classes
2020-09-16 22:25:23 +0200 <hyperisco> in fact I know of only 2, but there are likely more, and those would be Haskell and PureScript
2020-09-16 22:25:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> lc_: I'm not _terribly_ familiar with Go; suppose I define a new Go interface, say CoolReader, that requires a method CoolRead()
2020-09-16 22:25:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> and I want to implement that for some standard library type, say Stdin
2020-09-16 22:25:58 +0200 <tomsmeding> can I do that?
2020-09-16 22:26:05 +0200 <lc_> yes
2020-09-16 22:27:15 +0200 <tomsmeding> so to be clear, Go's interfaces are _not_ the same thing as C++/Java interfaces
2020-09-16 22:27:17 +0200 <hyperisco> or are you using my favourite approach where you just say something to provoke responses :P
2020-09-16 22:27:43 +0200 <lc_> All an interface is is a description of methods an object must support to be called "interface_name". So any struct you make which has those methods w/ those types, you can use and call "interface_name", and pass it into e.g. other outside libraries, etc.
2020-09-16 22:27:45 +0200 <ski> hyperisco : Clean,Mercury
2020-09-16 22:28:18 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:28:24 +0200 <hyperisco> well now I know of 4
2020-09-16 22:28:38 +0200 <tomsmeding> lc_: a difference between Go interfaces and Haskell type classes is that in Go, a type automatically satisfies an interface if it has the required methods, whereas in Haskell you need to explicitly make the type a member
2020-09-16 22:28:39 +0200 <Graypup_> go interfaces are kinda like c++ concepts sorta: you don't have to say your type implements them, you implement them and then you have functions that can take things with that interface
2020-09-16 22:28:47 +0200 <Graypup_> lol we both said the same thing
2020-09-16 22:28:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> Graypup_: yup
2020-09-16 22:29:03 +0200 <hyperisco> this is like saying oh, parametric polymorphism is just templates
2020-09-16 22:29:33 +0200 <tomsmeding> well, c++ templates with c++20 concepts get somewhere in the right direction
2020-09-16 22:29:51 +0200 <tomsmeding> though it's a more bloated and idiosyncratic version :)
2020-09-16 22:29:55 +0200 <lc_> Hyperisco if you know something interfaces cant do that typeclasses can, tell me then
2020-09-16 22:29:56 +0200 <ski> lc_ : the "object" part in your description isn't there, for type classes
2020-09-16 22:29:57 +0200 <hyperisco> minus the whole "parametric" part
2020-09-16 22:30:16 +0200 <hyperisco> lc_, an interface is a type, a type class is not a type, for one
2020-09-16 22:30:52 +0200 <Graypup_> a type class can be used as a constraint but it is not a type
2020-09-16 22:31:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> hyperisco: a Go interface is not a type
2020-09-16 22:31:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> at least
2020-09-16 22:31:46 +0200 <hyperisco> okay, I was referring to Java-like interfaces, and I don't know Go, but we can go on to other differences as soon as I know what a Go interface is
2020-09-16 22:31:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> lc_: can you write a method that takes a particular type T that must be both Read and Write?
2020-09-16 22:32:17 +0200 <tomsmeding> hyperisco: a Go interface is approximately a C++ concept :)
2020-09-16 22:32:21 +0200 <Graypup_> a go interface (as a non go programmer so boulder of salt etc) is a set of methods that you are saying a type has, and you accept things that have it
2020-09-16 22:32:28 +0200 <Graypup_> which is, yeah, ≈ a C++ concept
2020-09-16 22:32:53 +0200 <lc_> You can make that interface. But that reminds me of a constraint for interfaces, where you can't really "combine them", e.g. you cant say input to function f must satisfy x y and z interfaces
2020-09-16 22:33:01 +0200 <tomsmeding> ah
2020-09-16 22:33:08 +0200 <hyperisco> last I grazed C++, concepts were just a figment of C++14's imagination
2020-09-16 22:33:16 +0200 <lc_> So that's a genuine constraint, and people make specialty interfaces to get around that. But they're kinda similar
2020-09-16 22:33:17 +0200 <Graypup_> they exist as of C++20
2020-09-16 22:33:19 +0200 <tomsmeding> whereas in haskell, I can write a function: foo :: (Read a, Write a) => a -> Something
2020-09-16 22:33:24 +0200 <lc_> Exactly
2020-09-16 22:33:30 +0200 <lc_> We have to have a ReadWriter for that
2020-09-16 22:33:34 +0200 <hyperisco> well congratulations to them
2020-09-16 22:33:48 +0200 <hyperisco> the end of error novels?
2020-09-16 22:33:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> hyperisco: it's c++
2020-09-16 22:34:03 +0200 <Graypup_> lmao
2020-09-16 22:34:12 +0200 <Graypup_> haskell also has error novels
2020-09-16 22:34:14 +0200 <hyperisco> alright so that hype was overhype
2020-09-16 22:34:15 +0200 <Graypup_> IME
2020-09-16 22:34:24 +0200gestone(~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 22:34:25 +0200 <tomsmeding> though I've had haskell errors that don't fit on a screen too
2020-09-16 22:34:28 +0200 <ski> tomsmeding : or `read :: Read a => String -> a'
2020-09-16 22:34:37 +0200 <Graypup_> haskell errors are crap compared to rust errors
2020-09-16 22:34:51 +0200borne(~fritjof@200116b864b6860060095f4622ae75c8.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2020-09-16 22:35:01 +0200 <rustisafungus> Graypup_: yeah i think many in the haskell community recognize that it would be worthwhile investing in developer ergonomics
2020-09-16 22:35:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> ski: or is that really a feature of parametric polymorphism?
2020-09-16 22:35:14 +0200 <hyperisco> okay but "error novel" is like, I hope your terminal has a large enough buffer for this
2020-09-16 22:35:15 +0200 <lc_> I retract my statement about them being exactly the same thing. They are exactly the same thing conditional on being able to assert multiple interfaces per variable. But it is correct to call them "interfaces"
2020-09-16 22:35:21 +0200 <maerwald> Graypup_: not so fast
2020-09-16 22:35:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> you can't write 'read' in Go I think
2020-09-16 22:35:33 +0200 <maerwald> borrow checker errors can be quite confusing too
2020-09-16 22:35:42 +0200 <ski> tomsmeding : type classes depend on parametric polymorphism
2020-09-16 22:36:07 +0200 <Graypup_> that's true but they're doing their best. haskell has too fancy of types to have good errors I suspect
2020-09-16 22:36:32 +0200 <ski> lc_ : how would you call the method of an interface, if there's no object to call it on ?
2020-09-16 22:36:47 +0200 <hyperisco> lc_, if "interface" is meant loosely then I don't disagree. It is just a common tripping point when someone believes type classes = OOP interfaces, or other notions of "interface"
2020-09-16 22:37:06 +0200 <dolio> For some reason, people complain about GHC's errors, and the response seems to be to put ever more information in them. :)
2020-09-16 22:37:11 +0200 <maerwald> Graypup_: you don't have to use that jazz
2020-09-16 22:37:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> lc_: with ski's help, I think indeed the Read type class is a good example of something that doesn't map well to Go
2020-09-16 22:37:24 +0200 <Graypup_> maerwald, yesod go brrr
2020-09-16 22:37:32 +0200 <dolio> Even though it seems like the opposite would be better.
2020-09-16 22:37:44 +0200aenesidemus_(~aenesidem@c-73-53-247-25.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 22:37:56 +0200 <maerwald> Graypup_: that's exactly why I don't use it
2020-09-16 22:38:11 +0200 <hyperisco> GHC would have great errors probably if everyone stopped using so much inference
2020-09-16 22:38:46 +0200 <dolio> I don't know about that.
2020-09-16 22:38:50 +0200 <Graypup_> maerwald, well I didn't choose to get hired working on a yesod project, and honestly didn't have much of a choice anyway haha
2020-09-16 22:39:02 +0200gestone(~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:39:02 +0200pfurla(~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:39:15 +0200 <maerwald> yeah, you might as well go back to Java
2020-09-16 22:39:27 +0200 <lc_> Anyone here got any thoughts about using golang vs. Haskell in a production environment. I come close to switching a lot, but I really don't like meme chasing
2020-09-16 22:39:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> maerwald: that escalated quickly
2020-09-16 22:39:32 +0200 <Graypup_> java has better errors and doesn't require a PhD to understand the type theory
2020-09-16 22:39:38 +0200 <hyperisco> tomsmeding, looks like an interface is a type in Go
2020-09-16 22:39:41 +0200 <Graypup_> oops a controversial statement
2020-09-16 22:39:49 +0200 <maerwald> tomsmeding: that was sarcasm towards yesod
2020-09-16 22:39:52 +0200 <dolio> I don't have a PhD.
2020-09-16 22:40:12 +0200 <dolio> Neither does SPJ, I think.
2020-09-16 22:40:16 +0200 <sm[m]> new-to-you ghc errors can suck, but ghc errors you see repeatedly in production code soon become a non-problem
2020-09-16 22:40:18 +0200 <hyperisco> you can mail my honorary PhD to my PO box
2020-09-16 22:40:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> Graypup_: true, but there's metric tonnes of stuff you can do in haskell that you can't in java :p
2020-09-16 22:40:38 +0200 <tomsmeding> in terms of abstractions
2020-09-16 22:41:11 +0200 <maerwald> lc_: if you like to live in microservice hell, Go is your first choice
2020-09-16 22:41:29 +0200 <hyperisco> lc_, imo that depends on the project. If Go has the right libraries and ecosystem already for the job then have at it
2020-09-16 22:41:32 +0200 <tomsmeding> dolio: SPJ has a honorary doctorate
2020-09-16 22:41:39 +0200 <dolio> Ah, okay.
2020-09-16 22:41:50 +0200aenesidemus(~aenesidem@c-73-53-247-25.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:42:06 +0200aenesidemus(~aenesidem@c-73-53-247-25.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 22:42:14 +0200pfurla(~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net)
2020-09-16 22:42:16 +0200 <Graypup_> tomsmeding, well I literally work on a webapp that has a logic checker embedded in it so...
2020-09-16 22:42:18 +0200aenesidemus_(~aenesidem@c-73-53-247-25.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:42:24 +0200 <Graypup_> yeah java is a no go
2020-09-16 22:42:25 +0200 <rustisafungus> it would be nice if there was a way to do away with the "libraries" entrechment phenomenon to promote language innovation
2020-09-16 22:42:51 +0200 <lc_> maerwald: Completely incorrect. I work on a golang project that is almost entirely a monolith besides its dependencies on NIH apis and infra
2020-09-16 22:43:09 +0200 <monochrom> Graypup_, I think your experience about advanced types is due to using some of the web frameworks that go crazy with advanced types, and is not representative of what other people experience, certainly not what I experience.
2020-09-16 22:43:10 +0200 <lc_> why anyone would suggest that golang --> microservices beyond the fact that its easy to use the http libraries is beyond me
2020-09-16 22:43:15 +0200 <maerwald> lc_: how does that make my statement incorrect
2020-09-16 22:43:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> lc_: maerwald said microservices -> go, but go -> microservices
2020-09-16 22:43:23 +0200 <maerwald> I didn't talk about your work project :)
2020-09-16 22:43:23 +0200 <tomsmeding> ;)
2020-09-16 22:43:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> s/but/not/
2020-09-16 22:43:45 +0200 <lc_> you got me there
2020-09-16 22:44:00 +0200 <monochrom> But I don't speak badly of Java either because Java has a better exception system.
2020-09-16 22:44:08 +0200 <maerwald> indeed
2020-09-16 22:44:17 +0200 <maerwald> But I still speak badly of it :)
2020-09-16 22:44:26 +0200 <dolio> Yeah, I don't really have many problems with weird type errors. I mainly don't find the list of information about everything in scope in a where clause very useful, and such like.
2020-09-16 22:44:27 +0200 <hyperisco> I read recently how the exception system is terrible in Java and how Haskell does it better, lol
2020-09-16 22:44:46 +0200 <monochrom> We can all speak badly about a bad aspect, as opposed to a whole language.
2020-09-16 22:44:49 +0200 <hyperisco> my experience with checked exceptions is checkered
2020-09-16 22:44:53 +0200 <maerwald> hyperisco: haskell has an exception system?
2020-09-16 22:45:04 +0200 <hyperisco> as a library sure
2020-09-16 22:45:09 +0200 <maerwald> Ah, you mean IO... anything goes
2020-09-16 22:45:19 +0200 <Cale> It has several...
2020-09-16 22:45:20 +0200 <monochrom> Likewise, we can all speak badly about a semantics issue, as opposed to a whole "paradigm".
2020-09-16 22:45:25 +0200knupfer(~Thunderbi@200116b82ca8150058b8c4b5b05244fc.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:45:27 +0200 <lc_> I recently tried this sort of exception handling... scheme in golang. I don't know if it's insane or not
2020-09-16 22:45:29 +0200 <hyperisco> well, the argumentation I was reading liked the unchecked ethos
2020-09-16 22:45:32 +0200 <maerwald> And none of them work consistently :)
2020-09-16 22:45:36 +0200gmt(~gmt@pool-71-105-108-44.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
2020-09-16 22:46:06 +0200 <lc_> Basically, when a function would normally return an error, I just give it two callbacks instead. One will func(err error) and the other will func(goodies Goodies)
2020-09-16 22:46:34 +0200 <hyperisco> unchecked may as well mean unityped errors
2020-09-16 22:46:40 +0200 <Graypup_> monochrom, the ones I've had a lot of trouble with are hardly advanced. Just like, figuring wtf they expect me to return (the short version of it), when some person who thought they were smart put the result through 14 monad transformers making the type fall off the screen
2020-09-16 22:46:47 +0200mirrorbird(~psutcliff@2a00:801:44b:8959:8d6c:276b:332b:1c71)
2020-09-16 22:47:19 +0200 <maerwald> transformers aren't worth it... just use IO
2020-09-16 22:47:26 +0200 <monochrom> Well OK, then it is due to some web frameworks going crazy with 14 levels of monad transformers.
2020-09-16 22:47:28 +0200 <dolio> That doesn't seem like it's GHC's fault.
2020-09-16 22:47:34 +0200 <hyperisco> my experience says there is such niche use of it that it wasn't worth my bother
2020-09-16 22:47:36 +0200 <monochrom> But it is still not representative of the majority.
2020-09-16 22:47:54 +0200 <hyperisco> there isn't any point to sussing out different types of errors unless you're going to do something different with them
2020-09-16 22:48:01 +0200 <lc_> I use this scheme to cache and replace globals, too, in golang
2020-09-16 22:48:11 +0200 <monochrom> Call me academic but I refuse to accept that web programming is representative of programming.
2020-09-16 22:48:17 +0200 <hyperisco> and practically speaking, usually just printing a string somewhere or crashing suffices
2020-09-16 22:48:18 +0200 <maerwald> I guess fpcomplete frameworks usually make heavy use of transformers
2020-09-16 22:48:19 +0200 <Graypup_> dolio, I mean, not entirely? but the only way I found out e.g. about the MForm alias was reading docs and other peoples' source coded and the vanishingly few examples
2020-09-16 22:48:40 +0200 <Graypup_> haskellers don't seem to believe in writing examples often which is very frustrating as someone trying to learn
2020-09-16 22:48:45 +0200__Joker(~Joker@180.151.106.108)
2020-09-16 22:48:47 +0200stree(~stree@50-108-115-67.adr01.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net) (Quit: Caught exception)
2020-09-16 22:49:05 +0200stree(~stree@50-108-115-67.adr01.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
2020-09-16 22:49:10 +0200 <lc_> I'm a web programmer and it's awful. I wish you could make money programming compilers. Not that I know anything about compilers or compiler design, just... The idea of having a program I just run on my computer that does some computation and then outputs some computation
2020-09-16 22:49:12 +0200 <hyperisco> I thought web framework = TH hell
2020-09-16 22:49:24 +0200 <monochrom> I agree that some of the web frameworks I have seen get close to requiring PhD in CS.
2020-09-16 22:49:24 +0200 <lc_> Instead of having to deal with database errors, pipelines, schema migrations, etc. etc. etc.
2020-09-16 22:49:28 +0200 <Graypup_> oh I have debugged TH bugs in persistent also
2020-09-16 22:49:35 +0200 <Graypup_> that was a bad day
2020-09-16 22:49:40 +0200 <monochrom> I disagree that this is representative of Haskell programming.
2020-09-16 22:49:40 +0200 <hyperisco> like, back in the 2000's "web framework" became inseparable from "code generation"
2020-09-16 22:49:43 +0200 <rustisafungus> lc_: have you used elm?
2020-09-16 22:50:00 +0200 <lc_> rustisafungus: I have not
2020-09-16 22:50:24 +0200 <hyperisco> and all that is happening in Haskell frameworks is a somewhat more disciplined code generation
2020-09-16 22:50:26 +0200 <rustisafungus> lc_: please take a moment and write tic tac toe or something in elm, you will be very pleasantly surprised
2020-09-16 22:50:28 +0200 <maerwald> Theres something missing in Software Engineering... no matter what language you use, imo. It's the "Engineering".
2020-09-16 22:50:30 +0200asdfasdfasdf(339a7d12@51.154.125.18)
2020-09-16 22:50:39 +0200 <Graypup_> also the persistent folks said "oh you should read our tests to figure out how to use compound keying" when the tests were incredibly hard to follow since they were doing clever stuff to write the tests concisely at the expense of understanding the code
2020-09-16 22:50:47 +0200 <hyperisco> be it TH or crazy daisy type classes / families
2020-09-16 22:50:56 +0200 <Graypup_> people seem to be very allergic to writing examples
2020-09-16 22:50:58 +0200 <lc_> I should say, back-end web developer*, not front-end. My partner handles that
2020-09-16 22:51:16 +0200 <Graypup_> I hope that the library I maintain is an exception
2020-09-16 22:51:21 +0200 <rustisafungus> lc_: you know, even though you are back-end, give elm a try
2020-09-16 22:51:33 +0200 <koala_man> lc_: Facebook does a lot of compiler work. I had no idea until they released Infer, the Java/ObjC static analysis tool written in OCaml.
2020-09-16 22:51:33 +0200 <lc_> I just write golang stuff. I'd literally kms if I had to write javascript and css for a living, stg
2020-09-16 22:51:49 +0200 <rustisafungus> lc_: elm was designed for a person like you
2020-09-16 22:53:05 +0200__Joker(~Joker@180.151.106.108) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:53:13 +0200 <Cale> I've been working on GHC lately for one of our clients, and can easily be a good deal more tedious at times than working on our full stack Haskell web/mobile applications.
2020-09-16 22:53:22 +0200 <lc_> I am still giggling that you caught that maerwald btw
2020-09-16 22:53:39 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-09-16 22:53:42 +0200 <lc_> I normally do that to other ppl I know
2020-09-16 22:54:45 +0200rustisafungus(~rustisafu@2602:306:cd3c:9350:210f:c391:77b9:29cb) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-09-16 22:54:56 +0200qqqqqq(~Me@185.142.40.151)
2020-09-16 22:54:59 +0200 <qqqqqq> 6 Proof that 4Jesus worshiped one God same as muslims do: 10- Jesus identifying the commandment: "The Lord our God is One Lord" (Mark 12:29) to be the most important of all As stated in (Mark 12:29): Jesus was asked "Which commandment is the most important of all?" Jesus replied, "This is the most important: Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord"12 (Mark 12:29) as in Quran: {Say He is God the one (Allah)} [Quran chapter 112].
2020-09-16 22:54:59 +0200 <qqqqqq> 6 so the above qoute(mark12:29) is a clear evidence that Jesus was directing us towards monothiesm belief and to consider it as the very first of all commandments; 10 also here is the firsts of the The Ten Commandments(to moses) which is similar to what he was directing us towards: [10 1 - I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.]
2020-09-16 22:55:02 +0200qqqqqq(~Me@185.142.40.151) ()
2020-09-16 22:55:20 +0200gestone(~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
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2020-09-16 22:55:41 +0200wroathe_(~wroathe@c-73-24-27-54.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 22:55:47 +0200 <hyperisco> maerwald, move fast and break things man
2020-09-16 22:55:49 +0200 <sm[m]> Graypup_: maybe you're ready to give https://ihp.digitallyinduced.com/ a try ?
2020-09-16 22:55:53 +0200 <Graypup_> is god a monad /s
2020-09-16 22:55:58 +0200 <monochrom> Ironically, I would welcome a theology war if it replaced a language war.
2020-09-16 22:56:08 +0200 <ski> Graypup_ : ask Leibniz ?
2020-09-16 22:56:11 +0200 <maerwald> hyperisco: yeah, but forgot my sunglasses
2020-09-16 22:56:46 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:56:52 +0200 <hyperisco> I need to figure out how to turn renouncing programming into a career
2020-09-16 22:56:56 +0200knupfer(~Thunderbi@i5E86B4D3.versanet.de)
2020-09-16 22:57:00 +0200 <hyperisco> then I can actually renounce programming
2020-09-16 22:57:13 +0200 <hyperisco> was better as a hobby tbh
2020-09-16 22:57:24 +0200 <Graypup_> sm[m], interesting. maybe I'll use it for my personal projects where I am swearing so hard at excel for being a garbage programming tool incapable of even making hyperlinks and want to immediately rewrite as webapps
2020-09-16 22:57:34 +0200 <monochrom> If you like something, don't turn it into a job.
2020-09-16 22:57:50 +0200 <lc_> THis might be my golang speaking, but it feels like 90% of programming is edge cases and it kinda sucks
2020-09-16 22:57:57 +0200 <hyperisco> yeah but I was mistaken on the reason why
2020-09-16 22:58:02 +0200 <monochrom> A job causes burnout. Do you want burnout from something you like?
2020-09-16 22:58:05 +0200wroathe_wroathe
2020-09-16 22:58:05 +0200 <sm[m]> Graypup_: it's new but I think has legs
2020-09-16 22:58:18 +0200 <hyperisco> I thought the reason was because you'd get burned out doing what you used to love to do
2020-09-16 22:58:40 +0200 <sm[m]> (If you can stomach nix)
2020-09-16 22:58:50 +0200 <maerwald> you burn out a few times and then you get input-addicted
2020-09-16 22:58:50 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah that's the reason I know.
2020-09-16 22:59:04 +0200 <hyperisco> and that isn't the issue, as I see it… the issue is that you don't really have enough control over what you do
2020-09-16 22:59:12 +0200 <Cale> monochrom: haha, I wonder what was going through this driveby spammer's head... "This'll blow the minds of all those polytheistic christians in the programming language and software project channels on freenode"
2020-09-16 22:59:32 +0200 <glguy> There's not usually a lot going on in that kind of person's head
2020-09-16 22:59:36 +0200danvet(~Daniel@2a02:168:57f4:0:efd0:b9e5:5ae6:c2fa)
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2020-09-16 22:59:48 +0200 <maerwald> Cale: tbf... it could be a teenager.. at least I hope so
2020-09-16 22:59:56 +0200 <hyperisco> so the result is I still say I like to program, but "not this"
2020-09-16 22:59:58 +0200 <monochrom> Cale, I think it's the simpler "this channel size is large enough".
2020-09-16 23:00:00 +0200 <Graypup_> sm[m], funny thing right
2020-09-16 23:00:00 +0200 <maerwald> not sure what to think if an adult wrote that
2020-09-16 23:00:01 +0200Gaz(~Gaz@84.39.116.180) ()
2020-09-16 23:00:04 +0200 <Graypup_> I learned nix before haskell
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2020-09-16 23:00:28 +0200 <Graypup_> because I had to fix my project's build system to not require a giant docker container with ghcjs because ghcjs is such a pain to compile
2020-09-16 23:00:32 +0200 <hyperisco> because "programming" can also be hacking on JSON files to get Cloud Formation working
2020-09-16 23:00:35 +0200 <monochrom> Please always apply Occam's razor to human motivation. You'll be more realistic and cynical.
2020-09-16 23:00:37 +0200 <sm[m]> Graypup_: great, this should be perfect for you then
2020-09-16 23:00:37 +0200 <Graypup_> so I can /absolutely/ stomach nix hahahaha
2020-09-16 23:01:14 +0200mdunnio(~mdunnio@208.59.170.5) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-16 23:01:29 +0200 <monochrom> hyperisco: Good point, yeah.
2020-09-16 23:02:00 +0200 <maerwald> glguy: and I was gonna debate Thomas Aquinas god proofs
2020-09-16 23:02:07 +0200 <maerwald> but they didn't stay long enough
2020-09-16 23:02:55 +0200 <monochrom> "beware of mathematicians, category theorists, and Haskellers" >:)
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2020-09-16 23:19:19 +0200 <aldum> I thought the complaint was that (most) haskellers are in the intersection of the former two
2020-09-16 23:19:57 +0200 <MarcelineVQ> most haskellers just want to be Free
2020-09-16 23:20:05 +0200 <dolio> That's not true at all, really.
2020-09-16 23:21:01 +0200gestone(~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-16 23:21:05 +0200Tops2(~Tobias@dyndsl-095-033-025-182.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
2020-09-16 23:21:58 +0200 <monochrom> It's an understandable complaint if you add weights by how vocal each Haskeller is.
2020-09-16 23:22:05 +0200Suntop1(~Suntop@217.146.82.202)
2020-09-16 23:24:18 +0200 <dolio> I don't know if it's even true then, unless your standards for being a 'category theorist' are pretty low.
2020-09-16 23:24:25 +0200 <dolio> Or 'mathematician'.
2020-09-16 23:24:45 +0200 <monochrom> I believe that's exactly what happens in many people's minds.
2020-09-16 23:24:56 +0200knupfer(~Thunderbi@i5E86B4D3.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-16 23:25:22 +0200 <monochrom> Right? Yesterday's smbc (https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/number-hunt) is very revealing.
2020-09-16 23:26:15 +0200 <monochrom> People fear what they haven't heard of, and that fear leads to hyperboles and exaggerations.
2020-09-16 23:28:11 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2020-09-16 23:30:01 +0200 <monochrom> Or it's a psychological defense mechanism. To feel better that you have a rationalization for why the other person knows something you don't know.
2020-09-16 23:32:54 +0200g-belmonte(~g-belmont@2804:14c:8786:9312:3638:eaf5:dc36:146d)
2020-09-16 23:33:08 +0200 <int-e> monochrom: you're 1 million percent wrong
2020-09-16 23:33:22 +0200 <dolio> Wow, that's pretty wrong.
2020-09-16 23:33:44 +0200 <monochrom> OK, what's right then?
2020-09-16 23:33:55 +0200 <int-e> Sorry, I got stuck on the hyperbole stage.
2020-09-16 23:34:05 +0200 <monochrom> haha OK
2020-09-16 23:34:38 +0200 <MarcelineVQ> trancendentally wrong
2020-09-16 23:35:14 +0200lembot(~lembot@179.8.176.163)
2020-09-16 23:35:37 +0200 <monochrom> A cunning fox, more cunning than the previous one, came across a lot of grapes hung pretty high. The fox really wanted the grapes, but couldn't reach them.
2020-09-16 23:35:43 +0200 <MarcelineVQ> you're extremely wrong, but luckily figuring out how wrong you are is only log_w you
2020-09-16 23:35:54 +0200mdunnio(~mdunnio@208.59.170.5)
2020-09-16 23:35:59 +0200 <monochrom> This fox is more cunning than the previous one, so it wouldn't lie to itself "I don't want these grapes anyway".
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2020-09-16 23:36:30 +0200 <ski> oh, fable time :)
2020-09-16 23:36:34 +0200 <monochrom> Its more cunning excuse is "these grapes are for animals with wings. But I'm proudly down-to-earth".
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