2024/04/19

2024-04-19 00:04:53 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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2024-04-19 00:44:01 +0200 <duncan> specifically though APL's thing is arrays, is Clojure designed around arrays in the same way?
2024-04-19 00:44:33 +0200 <duncan> you can call a lot of things 'data-based', but it's sort of selling APL short if you have to generalise it…
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2024-04-19 00:45:26 +0200int-e(~noone@int-e.eu)
2024-04-19 00:45:58 +0200 <geekosaur> Clojure's designed around hashes, no?
2024-04-19 00:49:07 +0200 <monochrom> This is just both left wing people and right wing people claiming they are about freedom and/or liberty all over again.
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2024-04-19 01:13:19 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero)
2024-04-19 01:15:40 +0200 <sm> @where+ static-musl-build-posts https://www.extrema.is/blog/2022/03/24/ghc-musl-part-1
2024-04-19 01:15:41 +0200 <lambdabot> Nice!
2024-04-19 01:18:15 +0200 <probie> geekosaur: when you say "designed around hashes" do you mean actual hashes, or do you mean maps/dictionaries/associative arrays/etc.?
2024-04-19 01:18:59 +0200 <geekosaur> the latter
2024-04-19 01:20:16 +0200nullobject(~josh@user/nullobject)
2024-04-19 01:21:55 +0200 <c_wraith> I think clojure tends towards HAMTs. But really, what's the difference?
2024-04-19 01:24:51 +0200TonyStone(~TonyStone@user/TonyStone) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-19 01:26:15 +0200 <probie> c_wraith: one is a number produced by a hashing function, and the other is a collection, and I'll never forgive Ruby for popularising the name "hash" for "hashmaps"
2024-04-19 01:26:52 +0200 <c_wraith> HAMTs absolutely use hashes. that's what the H stands for.
2024-04-19 01:27:07 +0200 <monochrom> #hashtags
2024-04-19 01:27:43 +0200 <probie> I think one of us might be misinterpreting the thread of conversation here
2024-04-19 01:28:17 +0200 <monochrom> No, I'm just making dad jokes.
2024-04-19 01:29:34 +0200 <monochrom> But Ruby does a lot of unforgivable things.
2024-04-19 01:29:48 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:746b:6d2b:7905:31b8)
2024-04-19 01:30:13 +0200 <probie> I wanted to know if geekosaur was asking about whether Clojure was designed around the "output of hashing functions" or whether it was designed some kind of associative array, because whilst I assumed he meant the latter, Clojure refers to them as maps, so I wanted to confirm
2024-04-19 01:30:52 +0200Square2(~Square4@user/square)
2024-04-19 01:31:24 +0200 <probie> s/designed some/designed around some/
2024-04-19 01:31:35 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2024-04-19 01:31:50 +0200 <geekosaur> hashes, maps, associative arrays, whatever
2024-04-19 01:32:42 +0200waldo(~waldo@user/waldo)
2024-04-19 01:34:16 +0200Square(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-04-19 01:35:43 +0200sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-04-19 01:45:44 +0200 <probie> geekosaur: I'm not sure if this answers the question of whether clojure is designed around hashes, but; idiomatic clojure makes heavy use of maps, however, if you removed them, you'd still have a perfectly usable programming language (although some core macros and functions would need to change from taking maps to taking association lists as done in common lisp)
2024-04-19 01:46:26 +0200 <monochrom> I think it's a good answer.
2024-04-19 01:46:41 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-04-19 01:53:28 +0200 <tcard> @sm If you are looking into building static executables using Alpine/musl, you might want to check out https://gitlab.com/benz0li/ghc-musl , which is well maintained.
2024-04-19 01:53:28 +0200lambdabotputs on her slapping gloves, and slaps If you are looking into building static executables using Alpine/musl, you might want to check out https://gitlab.com/benz0li/ghc-musl , which is well
2024-04-19 01:53:28 +0200 <lambdabot> maintained.
2024-04-19 01:53:49 +0200 <tcard> (I have not had time to start contributing to this project yet, but I plan on doing so. My understanding is that Utku is deprecating his project in favor of this one.)
2024-04-19 01:54:50 +0200random-jellyfish(~developer@2a02:2f04:11e:c600:81d5:c278:7d49:e345)
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2024-04-19 01:54:51 +0200random-jellyfish(~developer@user/random-jellyfish)
2024-04-19 01:55:32 +0200 <masaeedu> demon-cat: I can definitely relate. when it works out well, Haskell programming can be quite relaxing
2024-04-19 01:55:35 +0200TonyStone(~TonyStone@user/TonyStone)
2024-04-19 01:56:30 +0200dsrt^(~cd@c-98-242-74-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-19 02:00:31 +0200 <sm> could lambdabot's owner please disable the smack feature ? I don't like seeing it every time someone @'s me. Is it mauke perhaps ?
2024-04-19 02:01:13 +0200 <sm> tcard, thanks! And thanks for those great 2022 posts.
2024-04-19 02:01:34 +0200 <sm> I had found both https://github.com/utdemir/ghc-musl and https://gitlab.com/benz0li/ghc-musl, but was mixing them up.
2024-04-19 02:01:35 +0200 <geekosaur> int-e
2024-04-19 02:01:47 +0200 <sm> how about it int-e ?
2024-04-19 02:02:00 +0200tcardbows
2024-04-19 02:02:25 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-19 02:03:15 +0200 <geekosaur> I don't recall off the top of my head which plugin @slap comes from
2024-04-19 02:03:57 +0200califax(~califax@user/califx)
2024-04-19 02:03:59 +0200 <tcard> https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/master/lambdabot-novelty-plugins/src/Lambdabot/Plugin/…
2024-04-19 02:04:19 +0200 <geekosaur> yeh, just found that in my local source
2024-04-19 02:05:20 +0200 <sm> I was fixing my static build yesterday and now I'm wondering: why does building static executables with stack seems to require a special docker image, or at least a special GHC build (+ Alpine); while cabal needs only a single command line flag (+ Alpine) ? Or is it that I'm cabal building with ghcup's ghc on Alpine, which has the same special sauce for musl ?
2024-04-19 02:05:26 +0200 <geekosaur> (I used to run an instance, and I have some actual command documentation sitting in a PR)
2024-04-19 02:06:13 +0200 <jackdk> you cannot get true static builds using glibc, because even if you statically link against libc, glibc will want to dlopen stuff for e.g. nsswitch
2024-04-19 02:06:55 +0200 <geekosaur> I'm not sure that justifies a custom ghc though, glibc vs. musl should be a link time choice not a special compiler
2024-04-19 02:07:02 +0200 <sm> jackdk: yes, that's why alpine is used
2024-04-19 02:07:28 +0200 <tcard> If building on Alpine, you can indeed create static executables directly. Stack's docker support just makes it easy to do so using an Apline container from distributions that are not musl-based.
2024-04-19 02:08:14 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
2024-04-19 02:13:37 +0200 <tcard> Official Alpine builds of GHC have unfortunately not worked for a while, though. I have not had time to work on this recently, but the issue I have bookmarked (https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/22237) is still open. Olivier's project works great because it builds GHC from source, and I think he might be using the gold linker if I remember correctly.
2024-04-19 02:14:01 +0200vgtw(~vgtw@user/vgtw)
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2024-04-19 02:46:59 +0200 <sm> tcard: I am guessing maerwald's ghcup is providing a fixed ghc on alpine. It seems to work for me at least
2024-04-19 02:48:51 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-73-164-206-160.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
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2024-04-19 03:01:00 +0200itscaleb(~itscaleb@user/itscaleb) (away)
2024-04-19 03:03:16 +0200tv(~tv@user/tv)
2024-04-19 03:07:16 +0200 <tcard> That is great news! I see that ghcup installs unofficial builds (from https://downloads.haskell.org/ghcup/unofficial-bindists/ghc/) for recent versions of GHC, but it still installs the broken official builds for older versions (such as 9.2.4). I will investigate further when I get a chance.
2024-04-19 03:12:01 +0200 <masaeedu> it's kind of weird how trees with internal nodes don't can't be sensibly filtered, but their forests can
2024-04-19 03:12:16 +0200 <masaeedu> s/don't//
2024-04-19 03:12:21 +0200 <jackdk> WDYM?
2024-04-19 03:13:23 +0200 <masaeedu> well, assuming `Tree` represents a tree with internal nodes, there isn't an obvious unique way to implement `(a -> Maybe b) -> Tree a -> Tree b`
2024-04-19 03:13:25 +0200 <c_wraith> jackdk: if you delete a node with two children, it's not obvious how to reconstruct a tree out of it. But it is obvious how to turn the remainder into a forest.
2024-04-19 03:14:45 +0200 <masaeedu> but assuming `Tree` is e.g. `Cofree []`, (this works for anything Filterable), there is an obvious implementation of `(a -> Maybe b) -> [Tree a] -> [Tree b]`
2024-04-19 03:15:52 +0200 <monochrom> No, I would think the forest version is even more problematic than the single tree version.
2024-04-19 03:16:23 +0200 <monochrom> Because singleTreeVersion = head . forestVersion . (: [])
2024-04-19 03:16:56 +0200 <monochrom> OK more accurately singleTreeVersion pred = head . forestVersion pred . (: [])
2024-04-19 03:17:23 +0200 <c_wraith> that's only true if you enjoy throwing out nodes that the predicate accepted
2024-04-19 03:17:43 +0200 <c_wraith> the forest version usually results in a forest with more trees than the input
2024-04-19 03:17:51 +0200 <monochrom> OK I see. Then it is not weird at all.
2024-04-19 03:18:15 +0200 <probie> I think the suggested semantics are that when a node is deleted, then all its children become its parent's children
2024-04-19 03:19:13 +0200 <c_wraith> the real fun is when you turn the whole mess into the crazy forest thing used by priority queues optimized for Dijkstra's algorithm.
2024-04-19 03:19:18 +0200waldo(~waldo@user/waldo) (Quit: waldo)
2024-04-19 03:19:40 +0200 <masaeedu> monochrom: `head` is not a total function
2024-04-19 03:20:57 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2405:6580:b080:900:746b:6d2b:7905:31b8) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-04-19 03:22:00 +0200 <probie> However, I wouldn't say that there is "an obvious implementation of `(a -> Maybe b) -> [Tree a] -> [Tree b]`". You're probably unhappy with something along the lines of `\f -> map (:< []) . catMaybes . map f . flatten`
2024-04-19 03:22:02 +0200madeleine-sydney(~madeleine@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
2024-04-19 03:22:27 +0200 <monochrom> In fact, I bet not an obvious semantics either.
2024-04-19 03:25:00 +0200 <masaeedu> probie: there's no formal content here to "obvious", but if you'd like me to be pedantic i can distinguish your function from what is intended quite easily
2024-04-19 03:25:19 +0200 <masaeedu> the key is in what you require of `f`
2024-04-19 03:26:07 +0200 <sm> tcard: aha. Here's such a build, for example/testing: https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/actions/runs/8744554461 , it used https://downloads.haskell.org/ghcup/unofficial-bindists/ghc/9.8.2/ghc-9.8.2-x86_64-alpine3_12-linu…
2024-04-19 03:27:34 +0200 <tcard> Thanks!
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2024-04-19 05:07:52 +0200 <monochrom> Hey nice, ghcup tui now lists things in reverse chronological order! Newer versions first. :)
2024-04-19 05:09:45 +0200rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@184.148.6.204)
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2024-04-19 05:58:48 +0200Guest67(~Guest67@129.170.197.84)
2024-04-19 05:59:18 +0200 <Guest67> g :: Monad m => a -> a -> m a
2024-04-19 05:59:18 +0200 <Guest67> g = undefined
2024-04-19 05:59:19 +0200 <Guest67> f :: Monad m => m a -> m a -> m a
2024-04-19 05:59:19 +0200 <Guest67> f x y = do
2024-04-19 05:59:20 +0200 <Guest67>     x' <- x
2024-04-19 05:59:20 +0200 <Guest67>     y' <- y
2024-04-19 05:59:21 +0200 <Guest67>     g x' y'
2024-04-19 05:59:31 +0200 <Guest67> Is there any abstraction that would make sense to use here in order to replicate the functionality of f?
2024-04-19 06:00:39 +0200 <EvanR> :t liftM2
2024-04-19 06:00:40 +0200 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a1 -> a2 -> r) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m r
2024-04-19 06:00:51 +0200 <EvanR> where a1 = a2 = r
2024-04-19 06:01:07 +0200 <Guest67> I see
2024-04-19 06:01:09 +0200 <Guest67> Thanks
2024-04-19 06:05:47 +0200rekahsoft(~rekahsoft@184.148.6.204) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-04-19 06:05:48 +0200 <Guest67> Actually, the problem is that g returns something of type m a rather than a
2024-04-19 06:08:16 +0200michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.200)
2024-04-19 06:09:21 +0200 <probie> :t \g x y -> join (liftM2 g x y)
2024-04-19 06:09:22 +0200 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a1 -> a2 -> m a) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m a
2024-04-19 06:11:05 +0200 <probie> :t \g x y -> liftM2 (,) x y >>= uncurry g -- for variety
2024-04-19 06:11:06 +0200 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a -> b1 -> m b2) -> m a -> m b1 -> m b2
2024-04-19 06:11:28 +0200 <Guest67> Yeah I just realized I needed to use join my self
2024-04-19 06:11:31 +0200 <Guest67> But thanks for the other method
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2024-04-19 09:29:46 +0200jtza8(~user@user/jtza8)
2024-04-19 09:32:04 +0200 <jtza8> Is there a reason why the random package isn't included with GHC by default? (From what little I know, it was previously.)
2024-04-19 09:32:42 +0200demon-cat(~demon-cat@vpn-fn-228.net.ed.ac.uk)
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2024-04-19 09:40:45 +0200 <int-e> GHC doesn't use it and it's not intimately connected to RTS internals.
2024-04-19 09:41:02 +0200elbear(~lucian@79.118.150.93)
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2024-04-19 09:46:45 +0200 <c_wraith> well. I just finally successfully used build to make a function that produces a list fuse. My biggest challenge? Realizing the argument order in the build function started with cons, not nil.
2024-04-19 09:48:33 +0200erty(~user@user/aeroplane) (ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.2))
2024-04-19 09:49:00 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e714dc23587832274e83a4b7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2024-04-19 09:49:17 +0200 <int-e> jtza8: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/commit/0905fec089b3270f540c7ee33959cbf8ecfcb4d7 removed it; it was an "extra" library for a while before that
2024-04-19 09:50:35 +0200 <jtza8> int-e: I suppose that makes sense. Thanks for the detailed answer.
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