2024/04/18

2024-04-18 00:03:22 +0200 <monochrom> My students are smarter than all of the above. They just click the close-window button. :)
2024-04-18 00:07:33 +0200Square2(~Square4@user/square)
2024-04-18 00:08:18 +0200 <int-e> monochrom: Why would anyone type out '"' 'e' '"' ' ' '"' 'x' '"' ' ' '"' 'i' '"' ' ' '"' 't' '"'? Do they hate themselves?
2024-04-18 00:08:21 +0200target_i(~target_i@user/target-i/x-6023099) (Quit: leaving)
2024-04-18 00:08:28 +0200CATS(apic@brezn3.muc.ccc.de)
2024-04-18 00:08:33 +0200 <monochrom> haha
2024-04-18 00:08:54 +0200 <dolio> monochrom probably wrote a Haskell program to generate the text.
2024-04-18 00:09:19 +0200gooba(~gooba@90-231-13-185-no3430.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-04-18 00:09:35 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-04-18 00:09:45 +0200malte(~malte@mal.tc) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-04-18 00:10:13 +0200 <ncf> > fix (unwords . map show)
2024-04-18 00:10:15 +0200 <lambdabot> "*Exception: <<loop>>
2024-04-18 00:10:39 +0200Square(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-04-18 00:11:05 +0200 <int-e> > text . unwords . map show . unwords . map (show . (:[])) $ "exit"
2024-04-18 00:11:06 +0200 <lambdabot> '"' 'e' '"' ' ' '"' 'x' '"' ' ' '"' 'i' '"' ' ' '"' 't' '"'
2024-04-18 00:11:33 +0200 <ncf> :t text
2024-04-18 00:11:34 +0200 <lambdabot> String -> Doc
2024-04-18 00:12:13 +0200 <monochrom> It means using the fact that the Show instance of Doc does not add quoting or escaping.
2024-04-18 00:12:29 +0200malte(~malte@mal.tc)
2024-04-18 00:12:33 +0200 <monochrom> putStrLn : ghci :: text : lambdabot
2024-04-18 00:12:53 +0200 <int-e> > var "silly fancy version"
2024-04-18 00:12:54 +0200 <lambdabot> silly fancy version
2024-04-18 00:13:16 +0200 <monochrom> Ugh now that's fancy and silly, yeah :)
2024-04-18 00:13:36 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-04-18 00:15:05 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-18 00:15:23 +0200 <ncf> sometimes i wonder about like, "fixed points with initial value"
2024-04-18 00:15:48 +0200 <ncf> it feels like i should be able to apply that function to "exit" repeatedly and take some sort of colimit to get an infinite string instead of a <<loop>>
2024-04-18 00:16:05 +0200 <monochrom> Does that mean "iterate f x0" and hope that something stabilizes down the road?
2024-04-18 00:16:15 +0200 <ncf> would have to somehow add the information that the input string is a substring of the output string
2024-04-18 00:16:19 +0200 <ncf> as in subsequence
2024-04-18 00:17:17 +0200 <ncf> i guess one way would be to say "the nth character of the fixed point only depends on the first m applications"
2024-04-18 00:17:37 +0200 <int-e> > fix (('\'' :) . tail . unwords . map show)
2024-04-18 00:17:38 +0200 <lambdabot> "'\\'' '\\\\' '\\'' '\\'' ' ' '\\'' '\\\\' '\\\\' '\\'' ' ' '\\'' '\\\\' '\\...
2024-04-18 00:17:54 +0200 <monochrom> iterate show "exit" may get you started.
2024-04-18 00:18:00 +0200gooba(~gooba@90-231-13-185-no3430.tbcn.telia.com)
2024-04-18 00:21:01 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c)
2024-04-18 00:21:12 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
2024-04-18 00:21:20 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-18 00:24:33 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c)
2024-04-18 00:24:55 +0200 <ncf> so like formally the space of strings on a given alphabet has the structure of a category for the "is subsequence of" relation, and if your quoting function is nice enough there is a ω-diagram that starts at "exit" and then repeatedly applies quoting; what kind of strings do we need to add for this diagram to have a sequential colimit?
2024-04-18 00:24:58 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@47.229.123.186)
2024-04-18 00:26:14 +0200 <EvanR> so you want to exit the program immediately, first let me introduce you to some category theory
2024-04-18 00:27:03 +0200Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
2024-04-18 00:27:04 +0200 <ncf> i guess the colimit would look like "^ωe"^ω"^ωx"^ω...
2024-04-18 00:28:25 +0200acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e714dc694defcfab5eaaea04.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-04-18 00:28:46 +0200redcedar0(~redcedar@97-113-208-43.tukw.qwest.net)
2024-04-18 00:29:30 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-18 00:29:38 +0200 <ncf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_language 👀
2024-04-18 00:30:12 +0200 <ncf> hm those are just functions from ℕ, so that wouldn't work
2024-04-18 00:30:26 +0200 <ncf> i seem to recall there was a notion of infinite words based on trees or something
2024-04-18 00:31:25 +0200 <Inst> hummm, i'm trying to reach the maintainer of hackage's TinyFileDialogs wrapper on Github
2024-04-18 00:31:38 +0200 <Inst> if he doesn't respond, do I have justification to fork it and upload a derivative?
2024-04-18 00:31:46 +0200 <EvanR> is it called omega language because as soon as you speak an infinite word it's the last word you'll ever say
2024-04-18 00:31:49 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c)
2024-04-18 00:31:50 +0200 <Inst> Not sure if anyone else uses the package, since tfd imo is pretty fundamental as a capability
2024-04-18 00:32:15 +0200 <ncf> you could supertask your way out of it
2024-04-18 00:32:24 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-18 00:32:35 +0200 <Inst> *attempt to say
2024-04-18 00:34:14 +0200itscaleb(~itscaleb@user/itscaleb)
2024-04-18 00:40:07 +0200 <ncf> (ah, i was thinking of "generalised words" in "Isomorphism of regular trees and words")
2024-04-18 00:40:15 +0200redcedar0rdcdr
2024-04-18 00:40:33 +0200rdcdrwalker
2024-04-18 00:40:56 +0200walkerrdcdr
2024-04-18 00:41:22 +0200 <ncf> (and "An algorithm for the solution of fixed-point equations for infinite words")
2024-04-18 00:41:32 +0200dunj3(~dunj3@kingdread.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-18 00:43:54 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c)
2024-04-18 00:43:56 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-18 00:44:19 +0200 <geekosaur> Inst, you always have approval to upload a derivative. you need approval to take over a package
2024-04-18 00:45:09 +0200 <Inst> no, but courtesy
2024-04-18 00:45:24 +0200 <Inst> i'm actually unsure when TFD developed security holes, it was something that came up like 2 years ago
2024-04-18 00:45:37 +0200 <Inst> or even if it did
2024-04-18 00:45:38 +0200 <Inst> :(
2024-04-18 00:45:39 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@47.229.123.186) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-04-18 00:46:21 +0200zetef(~quassel@5.2.182.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-18 00:48:03 +0200malte(~malte@mal.tc) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-04-18 00:48:37 +0200malte(~malte@mal.tc)
2024-04-18 00:49:22 +0200rdcdr(~redcedar@97-113-208-43.tukw.qwest.net) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2024-04-18 00:50:50 +0200 <Inst> thanks :)
2024-04-18 00:56:51 +0200Batzy_Batzy
2024-04-18 01:00:44 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c)
2024-04-18 01:02:16 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-18 01:02:49 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-04-18 01:09:21 +0200ncf. o O ( quoting is a well-pointed endofunctor )
2024-04-18 01:13:23 +0200sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-04-18 01:23:39 +0200 <masaeedu> maralorn: it might be worth considering not keeping the log in memory at all (the term "log" suggests you're not reading it to decide what to do subsequently)
2024-04-18 01:25:37 +0200 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> Well I want to display the log or parts of it.
2024-04-18 01:26:44 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-18 01:27:16 +0200FinnElija(~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
2024-04-18 01:27:58 +0200mud(~mud@user/kadoban)
2024-04-18 01:29:49 +0200 <masaeedu> I see. I imagined you don't access the log within whatever computation is logging: instead something else reads the log after the computation is complete.
2024-04-18 01:31:35 +0200mima(~mmh@aftr-62-216-211-54.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-04-18 01:51:10 +0200 <monochrom> ncf: What is the well-pointed part? Does it just mean I have both fmap and pure?
2024-04-18 02:00:56 +0200 <Inst> data.text can't convert to CString directly? ;_;
2024-04-18 02:01:14 +0200 <Inst> here we go, Data.Text.Foreign
2024-04-18 02:02:05 +0200 <geekosaur> you're not supposed to make assumptions about the internal encoding, and you have to specify an encoding to use when going to CString
2024-04-18 02:03:18 +0200noumenon(~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net) (Quit: Leaving)
2024-04-18 02:04:29 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah what would "convert" mean? For example convert λ to what C string?
2024-04-18 02:04:36 +0200 <Inst> ah i see
2024-04-18 02:06:01 +0200 <monochrom> Non-programmers and generally non-tech-savvy people can be understood to think in terms of DWIM and generally lack technical imagination.
2024-04-18 02:06:20 +0200 <monochrom> But programmers, of all people, are not supposed to afford to be that sloppy.
2024-04-18 02:08:31 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c)
2024-04-18 02:09:47 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-18 02:10:44 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net)
2024-04-18 02:10:47 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@77.22.252.56) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2024-04-18 02:10:55 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-177-197.176.6.pool.telefonica.de)
2024-04-18 02:11:54 +0200 <Inst> bytestring doesn't even come with a Foreign interface
2024-04-18 02:12:27 +0200 <monochrom> Should it?
2024-04-18 02:13:09 +0200 <Inst> "Represents sequences of bytes or 8 bit characters"
2024-04-18 02:13:35 +0200 <Inst> C string type is just a null-terminated array and it's platform specific as to its encoding
2024-04-18 02:13:35 +0200 <monochrom> packCString useAsCString etc covers most cases.
2024-04-18 02:13:36 +0200 <geekosaur> ByteString is best thought of as raw binary
2024-04-18 02:14:14 +0200 <geekosaur> any encoding is specified by whatever you're feeding it to/from, and may be specified by a protocol or out of band or etc.
2024-04-18 02:14:15 +0200 <monochrom> There are unsafe ones in Data.ByteString.Unsafe if you want fast and you code correctly.
2024-04-18 02:14:37 +0200 <Inst> it's just annoying because Foreign.C.String has a very pleasant interface, except that strings aren't supposed to be good for performance due to being a linked list of chars
2024-04-18 02:15:53 +0200 <monochrom> I'm beginning to wonder if you are just complaining that the word "Foreign" does not appear in the function names.
2024-04-18 02:17:08 +0200 <masaeedu> It's a bit elitist to assume non-programmers lack technical imagination...
2024-04-18 02:17:38 +0200 <monochrom> I did not mean assume. I meant understandable if some of them don't.
2024-04-18 02:18:07 +0200 <masaeedu> Oh, I see
2024-04-18 02:18:07 +0200 <Inst> no, in this case, i simply wasn't familiar with C encoding of strings
2024-04-18 02:18:34 +0200 <geekosaur> neither is C 😛
2024-04-18 02:19:02 +0200 <Inst> C doesn't even have a true array type, just a pointer, an increment based on type, and some sugar
2024-04-18 02:19:21 +0200 <monochrom> That's actually wrong.
2024-04-18 02:20:15 +0200 <monochrom> inb4 "in this case, I simply wasn't familiar with the C standard"
2024-04-18 02:20:31 +0200 <geekosaur> is anyone really?
2024-04-18 02:21:01 +0200 <monochrom> Well, sure, no, but I happened to read that section about how "int foo[4]" and "int foo[5]" are different types.
2024-04-18 02:22:16 +0200 <Inst> i like monochrom being appropriately harsh
2024-04-18 02:22:17 +0200 <monochrom> If you accept laziness, I can legitimately claim that I am familiar with it, because I will read the relevant sections on demand! >:)
2024-04-18 02:22:49 +0200 <geekosaur> …which leaves "comprehens"…
2024-04-18 02:22:53 +0200 <geekosaur> -s+d
2024-04-18 02:23:15 +0200 <monochrom> https://ro-che.info/ccc/11
2024-04-18 02:24:44 +0200philopsos(~caecilius@user/philopsos) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-04-18 02:24:57 +0200oo_miguel(~Thunderbi@78-11-181-16.static.ip.netia.com.pl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-04-18 02:25:30 +0200peterbecich(~Thunderbi@47.229.123.186)
2024-04-18 02:33:25 +0200 <Inst> what's wrong with reading the C standards?
2024-04-18 02:35:00 +0200 <geekosaur> not comprehensible by mortals
2024-04-18 02:36:18 +0200 <Inst> i'm skimming through it now, it's only 757 pages, which, while long, is still manageable
2024-04-18 02:36:40 +0200 <geekosaur> also, Apr 16 20:54:53 <c_wraith> "Developers who manage to figure out what the standard actually means are frequently appalled." truer words never spoken of C
2024-04-18 02:39:01 +0200 <Inst> tho core is only 186 pages
2024-04-18 02:39:04 +0200 <Inst> rest is library documentation
2024-04-18 02:39:28 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah I was appalled that it does not let me examine the 4 bytes of a 32-bit int by union { int i; char b[4]; }
2024-04-18 02:39:41 +0200madeleine-sydney(~madeleine@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
2024-04-18 02:39:44 +0200euleritian(~euleritia@dynamic-176-006-177-197.176.6.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-18 02:40:12 +0200 <geekosaur> that one doesn't surprise me; it's a hack that happens to work on many common architectures
2024-04-18 02:40:24 +0200 <geekosaur> and always was
2024-04-18 02:41:08 +0200 <monochrom> There was one year when I taught that hack to students. Subsequently I saw you guys here mentioning that it is not kosher, so I retracted it.
2024-04-18 02:42:52 +0200 <monochrom> Subsequently I only taught fwrite to a file and then just examining the bytes in the file. >:)
2024-04-18 02:43:27 +0200 <Inst> by the way, why are people using c2hs instead of just capi?
2024-04-18 02:44:07 +0200 <monochrom> I think they are orthogonal? You could use both? They solve two unrelated problems?
2024-04-18 02:44:08 +0200 <geekosaur> because with capi you still have to write the bindings; c2hs does that for you, when it works
2024-04-18 02:45:07 +0200 <yushyin> "when it works" I really feel that
2024-04-18 02:45:31 +0200 <geekosaur> capi deals with making function calls via C instead of directly via asm. c2hs writes bindings for you; those might be via capi or via asm
2024-04-18 02:46:20 +0200 <Inst> in terms of space and time, which is better?
2024-04-18 02:47:48 +0200 <geekosaur> asm is faster when it works but most functions expect to be called via C, and as such often make use of preprocessor macros and the like which asm won't know about
2024-04-18 02:48:09 +0200 <jackdk> There are important correctness benefits to using CApiFFI, particularly around things like variadic functions and exotic calling conventions, see https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20210709-capi-usage.html
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2024-04-18 02:49:11 +0200 <geekosaur> capi pretty much only exists because moving to generating asm directly instead of compiling via C broke the original ffi spec in important ways
2024-04-18 02:49:46 +0200 <geekosaur> so capi brings back how it used to work (and arguably how the spec expects it to work, although it's not documented as such)
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2024-04-18 03:15:29 +0200ridcully(~ridcully@p508accab.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-04-18 03:16:02 +0200 <Inst> with regards to bytestring, it seems that the unsafe functions will create data that's not garbage collected? So how should bytestring-generated data be GCed?
2024-04-18 03:16:35 +0200ridcully(~ridcully@p508acfbb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2024-04-18 03:17:10 +0200 <Inst> and actually in the standard bytestring interface, there are provisions for converting bytestring to cstring and vice versa
2024-04-18 03:19:36 +0200mei(~mei@user/mei) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-18 03:22:02 +0200 <geekosaur> if you mean unsafePackCString, the point is that there is no way to automatically know how to dispose of it, and indeed it may be a pointer to a C `static` buffer which can't be freed at all
2024-04-18 03:22:37 +0200 <geekosaur> if you know that it came from C malloc, use unsafePackMallocCString
2024-04-18 03:23:59 +0200beka(~beka@2607:f598:bd4a:6e0:c0ad:38f8:7650:7d75) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-18 03:24:12 +0200 <Inst> thanks for your patience
2024-04-18 03:24:16 +0200 <geekosaur> you would normally use unsafePackCString when receiving a C string as part of some data from a C library, where its lifetime is controlled by calling some deinitialization function
2024-04-18 03:24:47 +0200mei(~mei@user/mei)
2024-04-18 03:24:51 +0200 <geekosaur> (and you probably don't want to assign that function as a finalizer because it would tear down more than just that string)
2024-04-18 03:26:29 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-18 03:26:36 +0200 <geekosaur> so it's your duty to play along with what the C API requires
2024-04-18 03:26:56 +0200beka(~beka@2607:f598:bd4a:6e0:c0ad:38f8:7650:7d75)
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2024-04-18 05:03:01 +0200ski(~ski@ext-1-033.eduroam.chalmers.se)
2024-04-18 05:05:24 +0200 <Inst> huh, was never aware of this
2024-04-18 05:05:25 +0200 <Inst> https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/package_qualified_imports.html
2024-04-18 05:09:42 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73d29.dyn.optonline.net)
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2024-04-18 08:33:35 +0200danse-nr3(~danse-nr3@ge-19-98-47.service.infuturo.it) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2024-04-18 08:36:31 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c)
2024-04-18 08:36:38 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-18 08:38:20 +0200mima(~mmh@aftr-62-216-211-144.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
2024-04-18 08:40:37 +0200danse-nr3(~danse-nr3@ge-19-98-47.service.infuturo.it)
2024-04-18 08:40:40 +0200sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937)
2024-04-18 08:42:32 +0200fixmyname(~unorgaaco@2603:3026:431:4300:c547:8137:8f8b:9e0f)
2024-04-18 08:42:44 +0200 <fixmyname> hey party people
2024-04-18 08:45:50 +0200oo_miguel(~Thunderbi@78-11-181-16.static.ip.netia.com.pl)
2024-04-18 08:47:27 +0200ft(~ft@p4fc2a20e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: leaving)
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2024-04-18 08:56:27 +0200yeitrafferin(~user@2a04:4540:720b:4400:79a:67f9:a8da:f5b)
2024-04-18 08:58:47 +0200 <danse-nr3> \o
2024-04-18 08:59:02 +0200 <danse-nr3> oops they went. Not enough party i guess
2024-04-18 09:01:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> they could only have been disappointed anyway
2024-04-18 09:02:24 +0200axioms(~gnu-user@2a00:23c7:c32c:b101:b454:be36:7ae4:3bb6) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2024-04-18 09:29:01 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-04-18 09:34:10 +0200 <jackdk> can't have "functional programming" without "fun"
2024-04-18 09:38:54 +0200econo_(uid147250@id-147250.tinside.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2024-04-18 09:39:54 +0200jinsun(~jinsun@user/jinsun) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-04-18 09:40:30 +0200zetef(~quassel@5.2.182.99)
2024-04-18 09:43:19 +0200 <ncf> monochrom: fmap and pure, and fmap pure == pure (Fη = ηF)
2024-04-18 09:44:02 +0200danse-nr3(~danse-nr3@ge-19-98-47.service.infuturo.it)
2024-04-18 09:45:05 +0200witchcraftery79(~witchcraf@user/witchcraftery)
2024-04-18 09:46:42 +0200witchcraftery79(~witchcraf@user/witchcraftery) (Client Quit)
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2024-04-18 09:50:01 +0200bliminse(~bliminse@user/bliminse) (Quit: leaving)
2024-04-18 09:50:39 +0200 <probie> jackdk: Haskell manages to have "functional programming" without "fun, unlike ocaml or standard ml
2024-04-18 09:50:46 +0200Square(~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-04-18 09:53:16 +0200zetef(~quassel@5.2.182.99) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2024-04-18 09:56:15 +0200chiselfuse(~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse)
2024-04-18 09:58:43 +0200 <danse-nr3> what does `fun` do in ocaml? I also think common lisp missed an opportunity defining `defun` instead of `fun`
2024-04-18 10:01:35 +0200 <probie> It's how they spell "lambda" in ocaml. In standard ml, it begins a function definition
2024-04-18 10:01:56 +0200zetef(~quassel@5.2.182.99)
2024-04-18 10:02:00 +0200kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be)
2024-04-18 10:02:04 +0200 <danse-nr3> i see. I like the \ though
2024-04-18 10:05:35 +0200__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn)
2024-04-18 10:07:51 +0200philopsos(~caecilius@user/philopsos) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2024-04-18 10:09:13 +0200bliminse(~bliminse@user/bliminse)
2024-04-18 10:12:19 +0200xdminsy(~xdminsy@117.147.70.203)
2024-04-18 10:19:42 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c)
2024-04-18 10:23:15 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2600:1702:21b0:a500:a430:c3a5:5a62:375c) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-18 10:24:22 +0200 <danse-nr3> meh hating o <$> g <$> h being frowned upon. Seems nice and handy
2024-04-18 10:26:16 +0200 <danse-nr3> huh i meant o <$> g <*> h
2024-04-18 10:26:55 +0200 <danse-nr3> with g and h being (-> a)
2024-04-18 10:30:15 +0200 <danse-nr3> actually it needs to be (a -> b), and i need another coffee...
2024-04-18 10:34:13 +0200 <probie> Make it less confusing by using the exact same monad, but wrapped in a newtype :p `runReader (o <$> reader g <*> reader h)`
2024-04-18 10:34:31 +0200tzh(~tzh@c-73-164-206-160.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2024-04-18 10:34:35 +0200 <danse-nr3> XD
2024-04-18 10:34:46 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
2024-04-18 10:36:07 +0200 <probie> > runReader ((/) <$> reader sum <*> reader (fromIntegral . length)) [1.0..5.0]
2024-04-18 10:36:09 +0200 <lambdabot> 3.0
2024-04-18 10:36:26 +0200 <danse-nr3> progress!
2024-04-18 10:38:04 +0200 <probie> I think the issue is that to people who have never seen the idiom before, it's not obvious what the `Applicative` instance actually is
2024-04-18 10:38:48 +0200 <danse-nr3> right well ... is that not an issue about /anything/?
2024-04-18 10:40:16 +0200 <danse-nr3> (probably /everything/ would be better english...)
2024-04-18 10:42:38 +0200 <danse-nr3> i still recall the first time i saw this. Yes, i was a bit "wut!?" at the beginning but i found it clever, i knew what it meant i just took 5 or 10 minutes to understand how haskell supported the meaning
2024-04-18 10:43:47 +0200 <danse-nr3> (-> a) instaces always seemed imperscrutable to me, but using this seems a good way to get acquainted with the concept
2024-04-18 10:45:00 +0200 <tomsmeding> (there's no "per" in that word)
2024-04-18 10:45:03 +0200 <c_wraith> pedantically... ((->) a) instances
2024-04-18 10:45:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> I'm salty that I cannot write (a ->)
2024-04-18 10:45:29 +0200 <c_wraith> type lambdas!!
2024-04-18 10:45:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> same for (w,)
2024-04-18 10:45:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> -XTypeTupleSections
2024-04-18 10:45:47 +0200 <danse-nr3> cheers tomsmeding
2024-04-18 10:46:29 +0200Me-me(~me-me@user/me-me) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2024-04-18 10:51:17 +0200sroso(~sroso@user/SrOso) (Quit: Leaving :))
2024-04-18 10:55:57 +0200danse-nr3(~danse-nr3@ge-19-98-47.service.infuturo.it) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-04-18 10:57:21 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@125x103x176x34.ap125.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2024-04-18 11:04:22 +0200hgolden_(~hgolden@2603:8000:9d00:3ed1:2678:8497:aa5c:7fa9)
2024-04-18 11:04:44 +0200danse-nr3(~danse-nr3@ge-19-98-47.service.infuturo.it)
2024-04-18 11:05:51 +0200hgolden(~hgolden@2603-8000-9d00-3ed1-2678-8497-aa5c-7fa9.res6.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2024-04-18 11:07:37 +0200chele(~chele@user/chele)
2024-04-18 11:19:46 +0200danse-nr3(~danse-nr3@ge-19-98-47.service.infuturo.it) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-18 11:20:09 +0200danse-nr3(~danse-nr3@ge-19-98-93.service.infuturo.it)
2024-04-18 11:24:34 +0200Pixi__(~Pixi@user/pixi)
2024-04-18 11:25:15 +0200 <kuribas> there are no type level sections?
2024-04-18 11:25:27 +0200 <kuribas> :k (Int ->)
2024-04-18 11:25:28 +0200 <lambdabot> error: parse error on input ‘)’
2024-04-18 11:25:37 +0200 <kuribas> :k ((->) Int)
2024-04-18 11:25:38 +0200 <lambdabot> * -> *
2024-04-18 11:26:12 +0200 <kuribas> We need a language where type level and term leven are the same ;-)
2024-04-18 11:26:25 +0200 <danse-nr3> also value sections require parenthesis at times to work with the syntax
2024-04-18 11:27:35 +0200madeleine-sydney(~madeleine@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
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2024-04-18 13:38:24 +0200nullobject(~josh@user/nullobject) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-04-18 13:39:49 +0200 <danse-nr3> ... the more the test suite grows, the more the runtime logic shrinks. Feels like very counterproductive work
2024-04-18 13:42:17 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2607:fb91:17e1:db56:8da2:791d:b193:b965)
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2024-04-18 13:59:05 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2607:fb91:17e1:db56:8da2:791d:b193:b965)
2024-04-18 14:01:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> danse-nr3: does runtime logic shrink when the test suite grows?
2024-04-18 14:01:38 +0200 <tomsmeding> that would be the greatest technique ever
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2024-04-18 14:42:05 +0200danse-nr3(~danse-nr3@ge-19-98-93.service.infuturo.it)
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2024-04-18 14:48:27 +0200danse-nr3(~danse-nr3@ge-19-98-93.service.infuturo.it)
2024-04-18 14:48:43 +0200 <danse-nr3> huh i don't get your joke tomsmeding
2024-04-18 14:53:04 +0200noumenon(~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net)
2024-04-18 14:55:03 +0200 <danse-nr3> oh probably you meant to consider test logic as runtime one. Well then i do not have a term to describe code that is not tests
2024-04-18 14:55:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> danse-nr3: I interpreted your "runtime logic" as "the regular non-test code"
2024-04-18 14:56:02 +0200 <tomsmeding> making that shrink is typically a good thing
2024-04-18 14:56:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> shorter code that still fulfills specs is good
2024-04-18 14:56:26 +0200 <tomsmeding> hence my response to your statement: if writing tests makes that happen, then let's write more tests!
2024-04-18 14:56:47 +0200 <danse-nr3> right, that was my intention, but that's nothing new nor special
2024-04-18 14:57:25 +0200 <danse-nr3> (and reducing lines of code still debated if you consider "productivity" unfortunately)
2024-04-18 14:58:29 +0200sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2024-04-18 14:58:39 +0200 <tomsmeding> wait you were serious?
2024-04-18 14:58:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> my subtext was "surely not!"
2024-04-18 14:59:09 +0200 <tomsmeding> so that was the communication confusion, I thought you were being sarcastic :p
2024-04-18 14:59:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> hence you thought I was
2024-04-18 14:59:27 +0200sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar)
2024-04-18 14:59:57 +0200 <tomsmeding> writing tests does a lot of things, some of them good for code quality, but one thing it does _not_ do is shrink your code, as far as I know
2024-04-18 15:00:10 +0200tomsmedinghas a meeting
2024-04-18 15:00:21 +0200 <danse-nr3> i was serious, it happens to me that adding more test cases i realise about a smarter logic. Eventually such reduction can become embarrassing
2024-04-18 15:01:35 +0200 <mauke> step 1: write all the code. step 2: write tests. step 3: fix tests by deleting all the bad code. step 4: obtain short, correct program.
2024-04-18 15:02:14 +0200 <danse-nr3> i get terribly bored adding tests /after/. <3 test-driven dev
2024-04-18 15:03:21 +0200oneeyedalien(~oneeyedal@user/oneeyedalien)
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2024-04-18 15:56:33 +0200 <Inst> wait
2024-04-18 15:56:52 +0200 <Inst> RealWorld# never had any existence in Cmm back when Haskell was compiled to C, right?
2024-04-18 16:01:57 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2607:fb91:bea:c49:449:1c18:b61:a5f4)
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2024-04-18 16:12:59 +0200raehik(~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net)
2024-04-18 16:13:17 +0200 <EvanR> RealWorld :(
2024-04-18 16:14:10 +0200JeremyB99(~JeremyB99@2607:fb91:bea:c49:449:1c18:b61:a5f4)
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2024-04-18 16:15:11 +0200 <dminuoso> Inst: What do you mean by "back when Haskell was compiled to C".
2024-04-18 16:15:26 +0200 <dminuoso> -fvia-c is still a thing.
2024-04-18 16:15:39 +0200 <dminuoso> Or.. is it? Im not sure.
2024-04-18 16:16:29 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-04-18 16:17:29 +0200 <Inst> apparently C has zero bit bitfields supported
2024-04-18 16:17:42 +0200danse-nr3(~danse-nr3@151.35.229.250) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2024-04-18 16:17:42 +0200 <Inst> i was wondering if RealWorld# was a zero bit bitfield once upon a time
2024-04-18 16:20:43 +0200danse-nr3(~danse-nr3@151.35.229.250)
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2024-04-18 16:39:40 +0200 <dolio> I'm not certain, but I would guess not.
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2024-04-18 16:53:10 +0200 <geekosaur> dminuoso, I think it was removed some versions back, but if it wasn't then it emits a warning and uses -fasm
2024-04-18 16:53:14 +0200erisco(~erisco@d24-141-66-165.home.cgocable.net)
2024-04-18 16:54:08 +0200xdminsy(~xdminsy@117.147.70.203) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-18 16:57:48 +0200 <raehik> Am I able to set -Wall, but remove one warning?
2024-04-18 16:58:28 +0200 <dolio> Try -Wno-whatever after -Wall.
2024-04-18 16:59:16 +0200 <raehik> Ahhhh thank you, that did work. It doesn't show up on ghci completion but sorted it. cheers :)
2024-04-18 16:59:26 +0200 <c_wraith> -fvia-c was removed, but you can still build GHC to produce C code for bootstrapping. It requires an entire different build of GHC now, and it doesn't produce much in the way of optimized code.
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2024-04-18 21:08:39 +0200 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> Does anyone already know on what days the Haskell symposium will take place this year? https://icfp24.sigplan.org/home/haskellsymp-2024, Since the Haskell Implementors Workshop is on Monday the 2nd does it make sense to expect that the Haskell symposium is at the other end of the ICFP, on Friday/Saturday?
2024-04-18 21:11:11 +0200raehik(~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net)
2024-04-18 21:11:38 +0200 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> Ah, yeah. It seems to be that way every time in the last years.
2024-04-18 21:11:53 +0200 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> HIW at the start, symposium at the end.
2024-04-18 21:13:50 +0200noumenon(~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net) (Quit: Leaving)
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2024-04-18 21:19:18 +0200 <Inst> re: monochrom: TBH, every language standard that's reasonably updated is a godforsaken mess
2024-04-18 21:19:51 +0200 <Inst> i.e, html5 "80% of our features are legacy and/or no one actually supports them, so don't use them"
2024-04-18 21:20:02 +0200 <Inst> or alternatively "div should be used as an element of last resort, except if you're using react"
2024-04-18 21:21:16 +0200 <EvanR> "reasonably updated"
2024-04-18 21:21:29 +0200 <EvanR> because if it was not an absolute mess, you wouldn't need to update it? xD
2024-04-18 21:22:14 +0200 <Inst> :D
2024-04-18 21:24:18 +0200waleee(~waleee@h-176-10-144-38.NA.cust.bahnhof.se)
2024-04-18 21:29:15 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
2024-04-18 21:29:30 +0200 <demon-cat> Really new to Haskell and so I am the noobiest noob, but I notices a deep sense of peace comeo over me when learning some basics. Does anyone ever feel that?
2024-04-18 21:30:02 +0200gmg(~user@user/gehmehgeh)
2024-04-18 21:34:05 +0200 <monochrom> I felt deep sense of rationality.
2024-04-18 21:34:13 +0200 <demon-cat> Nice.
2024-04-18 21:34:50 +0200 <demon-cat> I think my experience was sharpened as I was having to do some python programming and a felt really dirty in contrast.
2024-04-18 21:36:04 +0200 <demon-cat> I do a lot of numerical based programmming, like stochastic processing, data viz, analysis etc. I like doing this in Julia, then R. But for a long time I have been wanting to have some reason that makes me focus on Haskell, its been tricky to start
2024-04-18 21:36:08 +0200 <demon-cat> Is this common?
2024-04-18 21:39:29 +0200tromp(~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2024-04-18 21:39:37 +0200Miroboru(~myrvoll@178-164-114.82.3p.ntebredband.no) (Quit: Lost terminal)
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2024-04-18 21:50:47 +0200 <bsima> its always tricky to start learning something new, you're a beginner again
2024-04-18 21:52:01 +0200Midjak(~MarciZ@82.66.147.146)
2024-04-18 21:53:48 +0200 <EvanR> coming from data-based languages you might have an easier time than say coming from imperative programming
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2024-04-18 22:07:58 +0200 <dmj`> haskell is therapeutic
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2024-04-18 23:08:28 +0200yin(~yin@user/zero)
2024-04-18 23:11:57 +0200 <demon-cat> EvanR: when you say data-based languages, do you refer to the fact that say in R you primarily dealing with data and not necessarily changning the state of the machine underneath?
2024-04-18 23:12:41 +0200 <EvanR> you're primarily dealing with data
2024-04-18 23:12:55 +0200 <EvanR> you can primarily deal with data in C or C++ but it's a pain in the ass
2024-04-18 23:14:15 +0200 <Rembane> Is Clojure one of those?
2024-04-18 23:14:15 +0200demon-cat(~demon-cat@dund-15-b2-v4wan-169642-cust1347.vm6.cable.virginm.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2024-04-18 23:14:38 +0200 <EvanR> yeah clojure is big on immutable data
2024-04-18 23:15:24 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net)
2024-04-18 23:17:10 +0200 <Rembane> Cool. I've heard of data-driven programming in the context of Clojure and associated to data-based languages from that.
2024-04-18 23:19:39 +0200 <EvanR> they have an immutable database... datomic
2024-04-18 23:20:02 +0200 <Rembane> I've heard much good about it. Haven't used it for anything though.
2024-04-18 23:20:13 +0200tri(~tri@ool-18bbef1a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2024-04-18 23:20:20 +0200 <EvanR> needs more types
2024-04-18 23:20:40 +0200 <Rembane> Yup
2024-04-18 23:24:32 +0200sawilagar(~sawilagar@user/sawilagar)
2024-04-18 23:31:55 +0200causal(~eric@50.35.88.207) (Quit: WeeChat 4.1.1)
2024-04-18 23:39:10 +0200 <yin> are array languages an data-based languages?
2024-04-18 23:39:58 +0200 <yin> s/an//
2024-04-18 23:40:00 +0200 <EvanR> depends. Is an array data
2024-04-18 23:41:02 +0200 <yin> in what sense?
2024-04-18 23:41:16 +0200 <yin> (i just got online, may be missing context)
2024-04-18 23:41:53 +0200 <EvanR> all these words are open ended
2024-04-18 23:42:31 +0200 <monochrom> What is the definition of "data-based language"?
2024-04-18 23:42:55 +0200 <monochrom> But yeah I have long denounced "paradigms".
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2024-04-18 23:55:44 +0200 <probie> yin: If you mean languages like APL, K, and J, I'd say they're at least as "data-based" as Clojure is
2024-04-18 23:59:25 +0200 <yin> yes