| 2024-04-25 00:00:34 +0200 | chiselfuse | (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2024-04-25 00:03:12 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> (continuning discussion about exofunctors) by the way, I realized my code snippet's problem is at `<*>` because that does not appear in the traditional definition of a lax monoidal functor, rather only on Haskell (with their `id f a = f a`) |
| 2024-04-25 00:03:32 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> could have realized this sooner, I know |
| 2024-04-25 00:04:31 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> also, I found freelude which is interesting too |
| 2024-04-25 00:04:59 +0200 | raehik | (~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2024-04-25 00:05:08 +0200 | <ncf> | what problem? |
| 2024-04-25 00:06:27 +0200 | <ncf> | haskell's definition is something like a lax closed functor, which are equivalent to lax monoidal functors between monoidal closed categories |
| 2024-04-25 00:07:04 +0200 | Lears | (~Leary]@user/Leary/x-0910699) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2024-04-25 00:08:01 +0200 | <ncf> | but yes it looks like constraining x -> y is a bit random |
| 2024-04-25 00:08:46 +0200 | <ncf> | i guess you need that because of the precondition thing on FuncOf? |
| 2024-04-25 00:12:23 +0200 | peterbecich | (~Thunderbi@47.229.123.186) |
| 2024-04-25 00:15:04 +0200 | <ncf> | i guess the issue here is that Eq is not a *closed* subcategory of Hask |
| 2024-04-25 00:15:30 +0200 | <ncf> | so you can get away with ConsMonoidal but not ConsApplicative |
| 2024-04-25 00:18:29 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> ncf: constraints asking for too much, e.g. `a (x -> y)` |
| 2024-04-25 00:18:48 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> I need the precondition because of `(<*>) = liftA2 id` |
| 2024-04-25 00:19:14 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> and `liftA2 f a = (<*>) fmapC (f a)` |
| 2024-04-25 00:20:23 +0200 | raehik | (~raehik@rdng-25-b2-v4wan-169990-cust1344.vm39.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-04-25 00:20:39 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> `liftA2 f a = (<*> (fmapC f a))*` |
| 2024-04-25 00:21:32 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> since `f :: x -> y -> z` then `fmapC` implies `a x, a (y -> z)`, thus `(<*>) fs as = liftA2 id` and `id :: (x -> y) -> x -> y` implies `a (x -> y)` |
| 2024-04-25 00:23:04 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> and yes haskell's Applicative is that (I don't know what a lax closed functor is specifically) but after constraining you don't see `a (x -> y)` that much |
| 2024-04-25 00:23:23 +0200 | cyphase | (~cyphase@user/cyphase) (Quit: cyphase.com) |
| 2024-04-25 00:24:32 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> I realized `<*>`'s type signature is `f (x -> y) -> f x- > f y`, since `f` is assumed to work on values of `a` then `f (x -> y)` does not make much sense either |
| 2024-04-25 00:24:38 +0200 | <ncf> | https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/closed+functor |
| 2024-04-25 00:25:30 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> ah |
| 2024-04-25 00:25:49 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> so my code snippet only works on closed subcategories |
| 2024-04-25 00:27:29 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> well then I guess it being specifically a closed subcategory is not good! imagine `Eq (x -> y)` |
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| 2024-04-25 04:51:38 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> ...right, the FuncOf precondition is probably not needed anyway |
| 2024-04-25 04:52:04 +0200 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> should I make a library out of this after polishing? seems promising |
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| 2024-04-25 05:53:21 +0200 | Square | (~Square@user/square) |
| 2024-04-25 06:03:13 +0200 | madeleine-sydney | (~madeleine@c-76-155-235-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 2024-04-25 06:04:25 +0200 | _ht | (~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) |
| 2024-04-25 06:04:41 +0200 | <Inst> | wait, Int is magical, right? |
| 2024-04-25 06:04:57 +0200 | <Inst> | Int, Char, etc, they should evaluate to Int# Thunk |
| 2024-04-25 06:05:05 +0200 | <Inst> | Char# Thunk |
| 2024-04-25 06:05:19 +0200 | tri | (~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 2024-04-25 06:08:09 +0200 | michalz | (~michalz@185.246.207.218) |
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| 2024-04-25 06:14:47 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Int is not magical, other than the constructor name. Int# is magical |
| 2024-04-25 06:15:41 +0200 | <c_wraith> | Int is the regular Haskell wrapper around the magic Int# |
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| 2024-04-25 07:52:50 +0200 | <dminuoso> | In fact, Int will evaluate to Int. |
| 2024-04-25 07:52:57 +0200 | <dminuoso> | It's a box around Int# |
| 2024-04-25 07:53:15 +0200 | <dminuoso> | While GHC will aggressively try to unbox Int, you cannot rely on that. |
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| 2024-04-25 08:17:23 +0200 | mima | (~mmh@aftr-62-216-211-38.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
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| 2024-04-25 08:30:31 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-04-25 08:33:51 +0200 | renpose | (~renpose@user/renpose) |
| 2024-04-25 08:37:02 +0200 | <renpose> | So I'm using HKD with the barbies package, and I ended up writing `newtype F a f = F (f a) deriving (Generic, FunctorB, ApplicativeB, TraversableB)` since I cannot use `type TyF f = Identity (f Ty)` and use `TyF` partially applied in a type family. What is `F`? Surely it has a name? |
| 2024-04-25 08:38:12 +0200 | <renpose> | Is it just a higher-kinded version of the identity functor? |
| 2024-04-25 08:41:59 +0200 | <dminuoso> | renpose: Mmm, it's a kind of lifted ($) I guess. |
| 2024-04-25 08:42:57 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Apply might be a suitable name, though semigroupoids uses it for something else (namely Applicative sans pure) |
| 2024-04-25 08:43:12 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Or you could just call it Dollar. :-) |
| 2024-04-25 08:43:32 +0200 | <dminuoso> | Or you could just straight up name it :$ or :$: |
| 2024-04-25 08:43:34 +0200 | <renpose> | `($) == flip id` isn't it? |
| 2024-04-25 08:43:45 +0200 | <dminuoso> | No, ($) = id. |
| 2024-04-25 08:43:46 +0200 | <renpose> | I like :$: |
| 2024-04-25 08:44:08 +0200 | <renpose> | Oh yeah, brainfart |
| 2024-04-25 08:45:35 +0200 | <jackdk> | it's more like `(&) = flip ($)`, no? |
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| 2024-04-25 12:13:20 +0200 | __monty__ | (~toonn@user/toonn) |
| 2024-04-25 12:47:19 +0200 | Lord_of_Life_ | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) |
| 2024-04-25 12:47:50 +0200 | Lord_of_Life | (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2024-04-25 12:48:25 +0200 | yeitrafferin | (~user@2a04:4540:7213:4d00:b9b0:d2b9:e58a:8d24) |
| 2024-04-25 12:48:44 +0200 | Lord_of_Life_ | Lord_of_Life |
| 2024-04-25 12:51:36 +0200 | ChaiTRex | (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) |
| 2024-04-25 12:57:47 +0200 | berberman | (~berberman@user/berberman) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) |
| 2024-04-25 12:58:31 +0200 | berberman | (~berberman@user/berberman) |
| 2024-04-25 13:03:11 +0200 | qqq | (~qqq@92.43.167.61) |
| 2024-04-25 13:06:52 +0200 | ocra8 | (ocra8@user/ocra8) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.2) |
| 2024-04-25 13:08:46 +0200 | <Inst> | dminuoso: the problem is, whenever I try to seq a value of type int, I just get the constructor |
| 2024-04-25 13:09:23 +0200 | <Inst> | there's a nice Julian girl, well, not sure what to call her, with OCaml experience who's playing around with Haskell these days |
| 2024-04-25 13:09:24 +0200 | ubert | (~Thunderbi@2a02:8109:ab8a:5a00:7c15:d614:7e94:5929) |
| 2024-04-25 13:09:44 +0200 | <Inst> | has a Haskell background, and was complaining about her scanl1 being inefficient because it was defined via maps |
| 2024-04-25 13:10:39 +0200 | <Inst> | it was, but not because of the reason she thought (i.e, O(n^log n, I think) because of the maps, but because of the thunks she was accumulating |
| 2024-04-25 13:10:52 +0200 | <Inst> | so went on about laziness |
| 2024-04-25 13:10:56 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2024-04-25 13:11:41 +0200 | <Inst> | but basically, literally, every Int has a WHNF of Int Int# iirc |
| 2024-04-25 13:11:52 +0200 | <Inst> | Int _ |
| 2024-04-25 13:13:43 +0200 | ocra8 | (ocra8@user/ocra8) |
| 2024-04-25 13:27:22 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Int is just `data Int = I# Int#` |
| 2024-04-25 13:27:26 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | so yes, it is lazy |
| 2024-04-25 13:31:06 +0200 | <Inst> | and iirc even if i seq an Int constructor (but not deepseq), it won't evaluate the underlying number |
| 2024-04-25 13:31:30 +0200 | <Inst> | is that called boxing? |
| 2024-04-25 13:32:34 +0200 | <Inst> | the implication is also that addition in Haskell... well, i wasn't actualyl that surprised by that! |
| 2024-04-25 13:32:48 +0200 | <Inst> | addition, basic arithmetic operations, is also lazy |
| 2024-04-25 13:33:17 +0200 | <Inst> | not until i pattern match, run an eq, or do something like print |
| 2024-04-25 13:33:28 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | I think seq'ing an Int constructor will evaluate the Int# |
| 2024-04-25 13:33:52 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Int# is an unlifted data type, so it has no bottom value |
| 2024-04-25 13:34:06 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | so if you evaluate until you have an I#, you automatically also have the Int# inside |
| 2024-04-25 13:41:36 +0200 | yin | (~yin@user/zero) |
| 2024-04-25 13:47:12 +0200 | hgolden | (~hgolden@2603:8000:9d00:3ed1:f849:272c:fda5:33c9) |
| 2024-04-25 13:58:28 +0200 | totalghost | (~ghost@172-105-178-131.ip.linodeusercontent.com) |
| 2024-04-25 13:59:21 +0200 | yin | (~yin@user/zero) (Quit: Reconnecting) |
| 2024-04-25 13:59:36 +0200 | yin | (~yin@user/zero) |
| 2024-04-25 13:59:52 +0200 | billchenchina | (~billchenc@103.152.35.21) |
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| 2024-04-25 14:05:29 +0200 | xff0x | (~xff0x@125x103x176x34.ap125.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2024-04-25 14:06:03 +0200 | kshube | (~kshube@49.207.195.24) |
| 2024-04-25 14:06:06 +0200 | pastly | (~pastly@gateway/tor-sasl/pastly) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 2024-04-25 14:06:11 +0200 | kshube | (~kshube@49.207.195.24) (Client Quit) |
| 2024-04-25 14:07:43 +0200 | pastly | (~pastly@gateway/tor-sasl/pastly) |
| 2024-04-25 14:11:08 +0200 | danza | (~francesco@151.37.242.9) |
| 2024-04-25 14:18:16 +0200 | <Inst> | so it's sort of the reverse of newtype? |
| 2024-04-25 14:19:59 +0200 | bitdex | (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "") |
| 2024-04-25 14:28:15 +0200 | <lyxia> | it's different |
| 2024-04-25 14:30:55 +0200 | jco | (~jco@90-230-146-75-no600.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 2024-04-25 14:31:04 +0200 | jco | (~jco@90-230-146-75-no600.tbcn.telia.com) () |
| 2024-04-25 14:31:47 +0200 | yin | (~yin@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-04-25 14:32:50 +0200 | danza | (~francesco@151.37.242.9) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-04-25 14:34:56 +0200 | zetef | (~quassel@93.122.248.176) |
| 2024-04-25 14:40:17 +0200 | totalghost | (~ghost@172-105-178-131.ip.linodeusercontent.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2024-04-25 14:42:18 +0200 | sp1ff | (~user@c-24-21-45-157.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 2024-04-25 14:42:47 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.1.0/docs/GHC-Exts.html#t:RuntimeRep |
| 2024-04-25 14:43:15 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | % :i Int# |
| 2024-04-25 14:43:15 +0200 | <yahb2> | type Int# :: TYPE 'IntRep ; data Int# ; -- Defined in ‘GHC.Prim’ |
| 2024-04-25 14:43:21 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | Int# is unboxed |
| 2024-04-25 14:43:34 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | (which is something different from "unlifted", which is what I said before) |
| 2024-04-25 14:44:14 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | boxed values are those that are represented by a pointer to a heap location |
| 2024-04-25 14:44:24 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | lifted values are those that can be bottom (i.e. that are "lazy") |
| 2024-04-25 14:45:06 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | boxed types can be unlifted; this means that _|_ is not an element of that type |
| 2024-04-25 14:46:02 +0200 | tromp | (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) |
| 2024-04-25 14:46:11 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | with -XUnliftedDatatypes you can define your own unlifted data types https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/primitives.html#extension-UnliftedD… |
| 2024-04-25 14:46:44 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | unboxed types can never be lifted (because they are not represented by a pointer, they are just the value itself), hence the liftedness distinction applies to boxed types only |
| 2024-04-25 14:47:13 +0200 | <tomsmeding> | when I figured out the model of how this works, I was delighted by how structured it really is |
| 2024-04-25 15:00:04 +0200 | destituion | (~destituio@85.221.111.174) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
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| 2024-04-25 15:02:03 +0200 | destituion | (~destituio@2a02:2121:340:2456:fffe:d0f:7737:dd1) |
| 2024-04-25 15:10:13 +0200 | zetef | (~quassel@93.122.248.176) (Remote host closed the connection) |