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2025-11-14 00:20:40 +0100 <jreicher> Does anyone have any practical experience, or know of a post that discusses it, for situations where shift/reset are adequate delimited continuation operators to use? The literature covers the situations where they're not enough, but I'm not sure there's much discussion about where they are?
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2025-11-14 03:23:55 +0100 <jackdk> Maybe look up Alexis King's work on eff?
2025-11-14 03:24:37 +0100 <jreicher> Yeah I did. That's one of the first introductions to it all I had.
2025-11-14 03:24:55 +0100 <jreicher> But I couldn't find her spending much time on shift/reset. It was more about prompt/control and then prompt/control0
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2025-11-14 03:44:22 +0100 <monochrom> jreicher: My https://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/cont.xhtml#shift-reset (or the whole thing)
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2025-11-14 03:55:13 +0100 <jreicher> OK, so the exercises you give there can be done in terms of shift/reset. In your experience is shift/reset "usually" enough for "most" situations? (I realise that's a vague question)
2025-11-14 03:55:34 +0100 <jreicher> monochrom: ^
2025-11-14 03:55:35 +0100 <monochrom> Yes.
2025-11-14 03:56:19 +0100 <jreicher> That's interesting. I couldn't tell for sure from the "theoretical" difference between static and dynamic, but it seemed to me it would be.
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2025-11-14 03:59:03 +0100 <monochrom> I may be wrong in saying "lexically scoped". If you define "foo = shift ...", then it is foo's call sites that determines the corresponding reset. That is dynamic rather than static.
2025-11-14 04:00:11 +0100 <monochrom> (In the same sense as: If you define "bar = x + 1", and if it is bar's call site that determines what x means, that is dynamic scoping.)
2025-11-14 04:00:34 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 04:01:45 +0100 <jreicher> I think lexically scoped is correct. When shift captures the evaluation context it includes the reset, which is certainly a lexical scoping before anything else is done, and then the continuation is captured with that reset in exactly the same spot, which is effectively the same "spirit" as capture-avoiding substitution for beta-reduction, and so the lexical scoping is preserved. At least that's my take on it.
2025-11-14 04:02:18 +0100 <jreicher> I meant to say "...and then the continuation is constructed..."
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2025-11-14 04:56:48 +0100 <jreicher> monochrom: Oh wait. Are you saying shift/reset might be dynamic in the sense that shift can be substituted into the scope of a reset?
2025-11-14 04:57:56 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
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2025-11-14 05:12:16 +0100 <monochrom> Yeah
2025-11-14 05:13:18 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 05:14:24 +0100 <jreicher> Are you sure it can? There's a "shift v -> v" reduction rule, so if you had "\f shift f" and were reducing to a strong normal form, you'd get \f f, no?
2025-11-14 05:15:12 +0100 <jreicher> Sorry that should asy reset instead of shift
2025-11-14 05:15:53 +0100 <jreicher> I suspect if we dig into the semantics we'd find a barrier to the kind of substitution we're talking about
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2025-11-14 06:21:35 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2025-11-14 06:26:54 +0100fired(~la@173-255-196-82.ip.linodeusercontent.com) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb1 - https://znc.in)
2025-11-14 06:29:15 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@d75-159-126-101.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-14 06:29:22 +0100 <jreicher> If I've understood the semantics given by the extended CEK machine in the "static vs dynamic" paper, the shift is evaluated outside the context of a reset before the kind of substitution we're talking about, because it's a call-by-value machine.
2025-11-14 06:32:37 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 06:35:59 +0100mange(~mange@user/mange) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-11-14 06:37:49 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-11-14 06:43:12 +0100humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect
2025-11-14 06:47:46 +0100humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2025-11-14 06:48:39 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 06:53:03 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-14 06:54:57 +0100takuan(~takuan@d8D86B9E9.access.telenet.be)
2025-11-14 06:57:21 +0100bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) bitdex
2025-11-14 06:58:48 +0100craunts795335385(~craunts@175.176.18.204)
2025-11-14 07:01:42 +0100humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect
2025-11-14 07:02:24 +0100_d0t(~{-d0t-}@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2025-11-14 07:04:03 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 07:04:09 +0100trickard__(~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-11-14 07:05:19 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-62-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2025-11-14 07:06:53 +0100humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2025-11-14 07:07:49 +0100_d0t(~{-d0t-}@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) {-d0t-}
2025-11-14 07:08:55 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-14 07:10:38 +0100Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-14 07:13:07 +0100michalz(~michalz@185.246.207.197)
2025-11-14 07:19:12 +0100Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo
2025-11-14 07:19:26 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 07:20:09 +0100jreicher(~user@user/jreicher) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-11-14 07:21:08 +0100jreicher(~user@user/jreicher) jreicher
2025-11-14 07:23:43 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2025-11-14 07:28:46 +0100haltingsolver(~cmo@2604:3d09:207f:8000::d1dc) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-14 07:29:22 +0100Sgeo_(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) Sgeo
2025-11-14 07:30:37 +0100Sgeo(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-11-14 07:34:55 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 07:38:39 +0100Pixi(~Pixi@user/pixi) Pixi
2025-11-14 07:41:43 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-11-14 07:42:46 +0100jreicher(~user@user/jreicher) (Quit: brb)
2025-11-14 07:49:05 +0100trickard__(~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-11-14 07:49:18 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-11-14 07:49:35 +0100jreicher(~user@user/jreicher) jreicher
2025-11-14 07:52:58 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 07:57:25 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-11-14 07:58:40 +0100poscat(~poscat@user/poscat) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-11-14 07:59:44 +0100poscat(~poscat@user/poscat) poscat
2025-11-14 08:02:11 +0100Sgeo_(~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-11-14 08:02:36 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 08:07:17 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-14 08:08:48 +0100poscat(~poscat@user/poscat) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-11-14 08:09:28 +0100poscat(~poscat@user/poscat) poscat
2025-11-14 08:11:16 +0100craunts795335385(~craunts@175.176.18.204) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2025-11-14 08:18:05 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 08:22:24 +0100CiaoSen(~Jura@2a02:8071:64e1:da0:5a47:caff:fe78:33db) CiaoSen
2025-11-14 08:22:49 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-11-14 08:26:26 +0100chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-11-14 08:26:42 +0100chromoblob(~chromoblo@user/chromob1ot1c) chromoblob\0
2025-11-14 08:28:49 +0100annamalai(~annamalai@157.32.194.69) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-11-14 08:29:27 +0100jreicher(~user@user/jreicher) (Quit: brb)
2025-11-14 08:30:12 +0100jreicher(~user@user/jreicher) jreicher
2025-11-14 08:33:01 +0100bliminse(~bliminse@user/bliminse) (Quit: leaving)
2025-11-14 08:33:12 +0100sprout_sprout
2025-11-14 08:33:28 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 08:34:57 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@172.222.148.214) peterbecich
2025-11-14 08:38:25 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-11-14 08:47:16 +0100jreicher(~user@user/jreicher) (Quit: brb)
2025-11-14 08:47:58 +0100jreicher(~user@user/jreicher) jreicher
2025-11-14 08:48:52 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 08:48:54 +0100bliminse(~bliminse@user/bliminse) bliminse
2025-11-14 08:50:42 +0100lucabtz(~lucabtz@user/lucabtz) lucabtz
2025-11-14 08:53:07 +0100Googulator93(~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-68e2-7394-b68d-da19.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2025-11-14 08:53:25 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2025-11-14 09:03:36 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 09:04:04 +0100sord937(~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) sord937
2025-11-14 09:06:40 +0100vektor73(~vektor@2a02:b98:8a00:6b00:c51f:7bef:7501:f469)
2025-11-14 09:08:29 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-14 09:13:01 +0100humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect
2025-11-14 09:14:42 +0100annamalai(~annamalai@157.32.197.187) annamalai
2025-11-14 09:18:08 +0100humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-14 09:19:08 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 09:26:03 +0100vektor73(~vektor@2a02:b98:8a00:6b00:c51f:7bef:7501:f469) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-11-14 09:26:04 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-14 09:36:49 +0100peterbecich(~Thunderbi@172.222.148.214) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-14 09:37:11 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 09:40:20 +0100tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f8db:b16d:6074:eae9)
2025-11-14 09:45:16 +0100emmanuelux(~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-11-14 10:04:49 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2025-11-14 10:06:19 +0100mreh(~matthew@host86-146-25-125.range86-146.btcentralplus.com)
2025-11-14 10:07:50 +0100merijn(~merijn@host-vr.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) merijn
2025-11-14 10:13:45 +0100jreicher(~user@user/jreicher) (Quit: Last restart)
2025-11-14 10:14:27 +0100jreicher(~user@user/jreicher) jreicher
2025-11-14 10:21:36 +0100humasect(~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) humasect
2025-11-14 10:24:13 +0100Googulator93(~Googulato@team.broadbit.hu)
2025-11-14 10:24:40 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-11-14 10:24:54 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-11-14 10:28:10 +0100tzh(~tzh@c-76-115-131-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
2025-11-14 10:28:23 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-14 10:30:18 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2025-11-14 10:30:56 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp)
2025-11-14 10:34:09 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-11-14 10:35:03 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-11-14 10:35:17 +0100Inline(~inlinE@2001-4dd7-ae97-0-4674-ae6d-2607-c022.ipv6dyn.netcologne.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2025-11-14 10:37:30 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2025-11-14 10:38:48 +0100acidjnk(~acidjnk@p200300d6e717192040ac95c287188d84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) acidjnk
2025-11-14 10:42:15 +0100j1n37(~j1n37@user/j1n37) j1n37
2025-11-14 10:45:28 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-11-14 10:49:18 +0100__monty__(~toonn@user/toonn) toonn
2025-11-14 10:55:36 +0100xff0x(~xff0x@fsb6a9491c.tkyc517.ap.nuro.jp) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2025-11-14 10:58:53 +0100Googulator93(~Googulato@team.broadbit.hu) (Quit: Client closed)
2025-11-14 10:59:13 +0100Googulator93(~Googulato@team.broadbit.hu)
2025-11-14 11:01:14 +0100Taneb(~username@host-95-251-57-201.retail.telecomitalia.it) Taneb
2025-11-14 11:10:34 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2025-11-14 11:10:51 +0100trickard_(~trickard@cpe-53-98-47-163.wireline.com.au)
2025-11-14 11:11:45 +0100ubert(~Thunderbi@178.165.175.248.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Quit: ubert)
2025-11-14 11:12:01 +0100ubert(~Thunderbi@178.165.175.248.wireless.dyn.drei.com) ubert
2025-11-14 11:20:29 +0100myxokephale(~myxos@2001:579:8380:f20:bec3:508e:c208:bae7) myxokephale
2025-11-14 11:23:35 +0100myxos(~myxos@2001:579:8380:f20:1406:c18d:98b3:27d1) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-11-14 11:33:00 +0100zeenk(~zeenk@82.78.233.217) zeenk
2025-11-14 11:38:22 +0100kuribas(~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be) kuribas
2025-11-14 11:42:51 +0100tromp(~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f8db:b16d:6074:eae9) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)