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2021/05/07

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2021-05-07 01:05:51 +0200tempate_(~alpha@90.167.203.12)
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2021-05-07 01:10:54 +0200 <tempate_> Hello. I'm working on my very first Haskell project (https://github.com/Tempate/8puzzle) and I have two very basic problems. Right now my Main module only runs test (located at src/Tests.hs). Ideally, I would like these tests to be run via `stack test`, but I don't know how. Secondly, my code, Tests.hs and Main.hs notwithstanding, is basically a library; what would be the right away of labeling it? Have a lib folder outside of src? And
2021-05-07 01:10:55 +0200 <tempate_> how would I point to it from the .cabal?
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2021-05-07 01:20:59 +0200 <cdsmith> tempate_: The typical convention is to put library code in src/, application code in app/, and test code in test/ -- but it's not universal, so, do what you like.  That's the most common convention if you want something to copy.
2021-05-07 01:21:54 +0200ddellaco_(~ddellacos@ool-44c73afa.dyn.optonline.net)
2021-05-07 01:22:30 +0200 <cdsmith> tempate_: I don't know much about stack, but if you still write a cabal file, there are different sections for the three.  For example, https://github.com/google/codeworld/blob/master/codeworld-compiler/codeworld-compiler.cabal is from a project of mine, and has Executable, Library, and Test-suite sections.
2021-05-07 01:24:05 +0200nbloomf(~nbloomf@2600:1700:ad14:3020:3c82:1c53:1e38:e2d9)
2021-05-07 01:26:07 +0200ddellaco_(~ddellacos@ool-44c73afa.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-05-07 01:27:22 +0200 <tempate_> cdsmith: but does it make sense to have an executable for the src if it's just a library?
2021-05-07 01:28:17 +0200 <tempate_> cdsmith: and, regarding the tests, as you can see, mine are pretty primitive, they don't have an `exitcode-stdio-1.0` type or anything of the sort, so what should I put in there?
2021-05-07 01:29:34 +0200kristijonas_(~kristijon@78-56-32-39.static.zebra.lt)
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2021-05-07 01:29:55 +0200tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2021-05-07 01:32:52 +0200 <cdsmith> tempate_: I don't know much about stack, but if you still write a cabal file, there are different sections for the three.  For example, https://github.com/google/codeworld/blob/master/codeworld-compiler/codeworld-compiler.cabal is from a project of mine, and has Executable, Library, and Test-suite sections.
2021-05-07 01:32:58 +0200 <cdsmith> Oops
2021-05-07 01:33:02 +0200nbloomf(~nbloomf@2600:1700:ad14:3020:3c82:1c53:1e38:e2d9) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-05-07 01:33:18 +0200 <cdsmith> Ugh, I wrote a long response, and then hit a wrong key and it was replaced with my previous one. :(
2021-05-07 01:33:59 +0200 <cdsmith> tempate_: Yeah, it would make sense for you to leave out the executable section entirely, then.  Put your library code in src/, and your test code (e.g., your current Main.hs) in test/
2021-05-07 01:34:17 +0200Deide(~Deide@217.155.19.23) (Quit: Seeee yaaaa)
2021-05-07 01:34:43 +0200proofofkeags(~proofofke@205.209.28.54) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-05-07 01:35:38 +0200 <cdsmith> tempate_: exitcode-stdio-1.0 is the right test type.  It means "just run this, and check that it exits successfully".  If you want to improve your tests a bit, consider using error when they fail, as this will cause the process to report a failing error code.
2021-05-07 01:37:30 +0200 <cdsmith> tempate_: So, instead of `putStrLn "checking foo: " ++ show foo`, consider `putStrLn "checking foo: " ++ if foo then "pass" else error "foo failed"`
2021-05-07 01:39:13 +0200 <tempate_> cdsmith: alright, noted. thanks a lot
2021-05-07 01:40:12 +0200 <tempate_> cdsmith: right now the tests return a boolean with whether they worked or not. That would do the trick, wouldn't it?
2021-05-07 01:40:38 +0200geowiesnot(~user@87-89-181-157.abo.bbox.fr)
2021-05-07 01:42:11 +0200 <cdsmith> tempate_: Sure, they can still return boolean, but then in main, you really ought to make the process fail when a test fails.  Your test code now will exit "successfully" (with exit code 0), regardless of whether your tests pass or not.  It's a minor point, but cabal assumes your tests always pass that way
2021-05-07 01:42:32 +0200 <tempate_> oh, right
2021-05-07 01:42:51 +0200 <tempate_> ok, great, I can do that
2021-05-07 01:43:22 +0200 <tempate_> what's the correct way of importing my src modules in test now?
2021-05-07 01:44:08 +0200geekosaur(930099da@rrcs-147-0-153-218.central.biz.rr.com)
2021-05-07 01:44:22 +0200 <cdsmith> You don't need to change the code at all.  Just add your library to build-depends of your test-suite.  (So the test-suite's build-depends should include 8puzzle)
2021-05-07 01:45:51 +0200jgt_(~jgt@87.227.221.129)
2021-05-07 01:46:48 +0200 <tempate_> Hmmm. I'm getting a rather exotic error.
2021-05-07 01:47:37 +0200 <cdsmith> tempate_: Please do share. :)
2021-05-07 01:48:08 +0200Synthetica(uid199651@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zjwhyipdmwoktmxx) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-05-07 01:48:36 +0200 <tempate_> Actually it's not that exotic: "Encountered missing or private dependencies: 8puzzle -any"
2021-05-07 01:48:55 +0200 <tempate_> https://bpa.st/LNOA
2021-05-07 01:49:00 +0200 <tempate_> My current .cabal file
2021-05-07 01:49:45 +0200 <jackdk> tempate_: you need a `library` section
2021-05-07 01:50:21 +0200jb55(~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-05-07 01:50:28 +0200 <tempate_> oh, right
2021-05-07 01:51:15 +0200jb55(~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55)
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2021-05-07 01:51:31 +0200 <jackdk> I generally find that I want a `library` section for almost all non-test code, one or more `test-suite`sections that depend on the library to do the tests, and one or more `executable` sections that have a very small `Main.hs`, maybe command-line argument parsing, but not much more than that
2021-05-07 01:51:53 +0200jgt_(~jgt@87.227.221.129) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-05-07 01:52:09 +0200 <tempate_> Yeah, that's precisely what I was thinking
2021-05-07 01:52:33 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73afa.dyn.optonline.net)
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2021-05-07 01:53:18 +0200cdsmith(49cf15a2@c-73-207-21-162.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
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2021-05-07 01:53:45 +0200 <tempate_> ok, it appears to be working now
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2021-05-07 01:59:02 +0200 <tempate_> I don't like how it's getting on top of that: https://imgur.com/a/G6p8DCv, but I guess I'll have to live with it
2021-05-07 02:00:57 +0200 <tempate_> I have updated the git (https://github.com/Tempate/8puzzle), in case any of you are interested
2021-05-07 02:01:11 +0200 <tempate_> Thank you both, cdsmith and jackdk, for your help
2021-05-07 02:01:34 +0200 <cdsmith> tempate_: Awesome.
2021-05-07 02:01:58 +0200tromp_(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
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2021-05-07 02:02:59 +0200cdsmith(49cf15a2@c-73-207-21-162.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) ()
2021-05-07 02:03:36 +0200cdsmith(~cdsmithus@c-73-207-21-162.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
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2021-05-07 02:07:42 +0200 <cdsmith> Slightly ranting here, but Haskell really needs a feature to derive not only this instance, but any other instances needed to derive this one. I hate this 200 lines of stand-alone deriving that I'll have to update every time I update to a new template-haskell version.
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2021-05-07 02:33:38 +0200 <gnumonic> So I'm doing some kind of complicated stuff with singletons and GADTs and I noticed that, inside a do-block, "let GadtThing x = mkGadt" often throws type errors whereas "GadtThing x <- pure mkGadt" doesn't. I thought they were equivalent? Why might the latter one work while the former doesn't?
2021-05-07 02:34:06 +0200star_cloud(~star_clou@ec2-34-220-44-120.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com)
2021-05-07 02:34:21 +0200 <geekosaur> MonoLocalBinds?
2021-05-07 02:36:42 +0200stree(~stree@68.36.8.116) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-05-07 02:36:50 +0200 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/let_generalisation.html
2021-05-07 02:39:28 +0200heatsink(~heatsink@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-05-07 02:41:27 +0200m0rphism(~m0rphism@HSI-KBW-085-216-104-059.hsi.kabelbw.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-05-07 02:43:12 +0200mathlover2(~mathlover@cpe-67-248-97-14.nycap.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-05-07 02:43:19 +0200 <gnumonic> ooooh i didn't realize that was implied by TypeFamilies and GADTs (both of which I have on). welp now i know what that extension does, thanks
2021-05-07 02:46:27 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2021-05-07 02:48:59 +0200 <gnumonic> somewhat related question i've had: How exactly does GHC determine that a case is unreachable? I've run into several instances where a case definitely is unreachable (I wrote out proofs in first order logic by hand to convince myself) and it *seems* like GHC should know that, but it doesn't. It does OK with a single type level predicate (something of kind :: k ~> Type) but when I use the predicate combinators in the
2021-05-07 02:48:59 +0200 <gnumonic> Data.Type.Predicate library GHC seems to lose the ability to infer unreachable cases completely
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2021-05-07 03:11:07 +0200 <nshepperd2> gnumonic: are you talking about the incomplete pattern match / exhaustiveness checker? it doesn't do proof search or anything. last i heard the latest thing it might use (not sure when/if it was merged) is https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3408989
2021-05-07 03:11:31 +0200xff0x(~xff0x@2001:1a81:529c:3600:b6e:989c:229a:901a) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2021-05-07 03:15:43 +0200 <nshepperd2> the algorithm is incomplete because of course the problem is undecidable, so i wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't handle dependently typed hasochism stuff that well
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2021-05-07 03:46:33 +0200tsaka__(~torstein@178-147-206-209.haap.dm.cosmote.net)
2021-05-07 03:46:55 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7783:f200:a9b8:e92a:88db:4a1)
2021-05-07 03:47:31 +0200todda7(~torstein@2a02:587:3724:1a75:aca:df22:9d82:969f) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-05-07 03:49:43 +0200pfurla(~pfurla@ool-182ed2e2.dyn.optonline.net)
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2021-05-07 03:53:50 +0200thongpv87(~thongpv87@27.76.236.94)
2021-05-07 03:55:05 +0200 <thongpv87> I'm getting this error when using haskell.nix (with flakes feature) to build my project: "error: Cannot find Git revision '725340d92f8109bf5ea620a224fe613df9fba8f1' in ref 'master' of repository 'https://github.com/brendanhay/amazonka.git'! Please make sure that the rev exists on the ref you've specified or add allRefs = true; to fetchGit."
2021-05-07 03:55:52 +0200dpl(~dpl@77-121-78-163.chn.volia.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-05-07 03:55:54 +0200 <thongpv87> That commit does exists on the repo but in `main` branch, not master branch
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2021-05-07 07:53:21 +0200CMCDragonkai2(~Thunderbi@60-242-118-130.tpgi.com.au)
2021-05-07 07:53:39 +0200 <boxscape> Is there a way to get the Maybe monoidal behavior for Either, i.e. so that (Right [1,2] <> Right [3]) is Right [1,2,3]?
2021-05-07 07:55:27 +0200tummy(~tummy@195.140.213.38) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-05-07 07:55:47 +0200 <boxscape> hm I guess there'd still be ambiguity about what to do with multiple lefts
2021-05-07 07:55:59 +0200Gurkenglas(~Gurkengla@unaffiliated/gurkenglas)
2021-05-07 07:56:17 +0200 <dibblego> liftA2 (<>)
2021-05-07 07:56:21 +0200mounty(~mounty@236.216.214.218.sta.wbroadband.net.au) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-05-07 07:57:28 +0200 <boxscape> dibblego nice, thanks
2021-05-07 07:57:47 +0200xmj1(~xmj@185.163.110.100)
2021-05-07 07:57:58 +0200 <gnumonic> I understand the practical differences between the typelevel (==) / %== and (:~:) / %~ from Singletons, but I kind of need to mix and match typelevel boolean equality and propositional equality for something. If a %== b evaluates to STrue, it is possible for a %~ b to evaluate to Disproved {}? If so, in what circumstances might that happen?
2021-05-07 07:58:45 +0200Sgeo(~Sgeo@ool-18b9875e.dyn.optonline.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2021-05-07 08:28:46 +0200thunderrd(~thunderrd@183.182.114.223) (*.net *.split)
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2021-05-07 10:00:15 +0200ClaudiusMaximus(~claude@cpc98210-croy26-2-0-cust137.19-2.cable.virginm.net)
2021-05-07 10:00:23 +0200ClaudiusMaximus(~claude@cpc98210-croy26-2-0-cust137.19-2.cable.virginm.net) (Changing host)
2021-05-07 10:00:23 +0200ClaudiusMaximus(~claude@unaffiliated/claudiusmaximus)
2021-05-07 10:01:44 +0200evanjs(~evanjs@075-129-098-007.res.spectrum.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-05-07 10:02:53 +0200Stanley00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00)
2021-05-07 10:03:18 +0200evanjs(~evanjs@075-129-098-007.res.spectrum.com)
2021-05-07 10:04:08 +0200 <cub3s_> To not be marked as broken in nixpkgs, does a Haskell package in nixpkgs only have to compile with haskellPackages (haskell.packages.ghc8104) or also the other two compilers?
2021-05-07 10:05:00 +0200LKoen(~LKoen@140.170.9.109.rev.sfr.net)
2021-05-07 10:05:13 +0200heatsink(~heatsink@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-05-07 10:05:42 +0200 <boxscape> I'm not sure but wouldn't derivations for different compilers count as different packages, that could individually be marked as broken?
2021-05-07 10:06:00 +0200 <dminuoso> ^-
2021-05-07 10:06:26 +0200Lowl3v3l(~Lowl3v3l@dslb-002-203-255-063.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
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2021-05-07 10:12:25 +0200sm(~user@li229-222.members.linode.com)
2021-05-07 10:13:00 +0200 <dminuoso> Oh, perhaps not
2021-05-07 10:14:01 +0200gitgood(~gitgood@80-44-12-75.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) (Quit: Probably away to do something really awesome)
2021-05-07 10:14:42 +0200nut(~nut@roc37-h01-176-170-197-243.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr)
2021-05-07 10:14:54 +0200 <cub3s_> boxscape, dminuoso, well If I checkout branch "haskell-updates" on https://github.com/nixos/nixpkgs, and search for some package like "antlr-haskell", I can see it only two places: listed under "broken packages" and in the haskell-packages.nix
2021-05-07 10:15:07 +0200 <cub3s_> So if I wanted to fix this broken package, would I have to fix it with all three compilers?
2021-05-07 10:15:32 +0200 <cub3s_> s/haskell-packages.nix/hackage-packages.nix
2021-05-07 10:16:28 +0200 <boxscape> cub3s_ I don't know but if you don't get a better answer here make sure to ask in #nixos
2021-05-07 10:16:31 +0200 <dminuoso> cub3s_: That's a good question, you should ask peti
2021-05-07 10:16:58 +0200 <dminuoso> cub3s_: looking at it right now, Id say just the standard ghc is fine
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2021-05-07 10:49:22 +0200 <cub3s_> dminuoso, how did you draw that conclusion
2021-05-07 10:50:18 +0200tempate_(~alpha@84.78.243.220)
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2021-05-07 10:51:13 +0200 <cub3s_> Indeed something like "nix-build --no-out-link -A haskell.packages.ghc901.antlr-haskell" also complains about broken package. So somehow they are applying the "broken" concept to ghc901 too
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2021-05-07 11:10:02 +0200 <dminuoso> cub3s_: A package is, unconditionally, considered broken if its marked broken in haskell-packages.nix
2021-05-07 11:10:24 +0200 <dminuoso> Roughly what happens is this
2021-05-07 11:11:17 +0200 <dminuoso> Every day there's a job that tries to compile the entirety of hackage (by running cabal2nix on every package found).
2021-05-07 11:11:37 +0200 <dminuoso> If it cant compile that package, it's marked broken (this is for your convenience, so you dont have to wait 20 minutes to find out yourself)
2021-05-07 11:11:43 +0200hypercube(~hypercube@2603-6011-f901-9e5b-0000-0000-0000-08cf.res6.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-05-07 11:12:07 +0200 <cub3s_> dminuoso, let me interrupt a bit. does it try to compile it with all three recent compilers?
2021-05-07 11:13:16 +0200Stanley00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-05-07 11:14:04 +0200Stanley00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00)
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2021-05-07 11:14:44 +0200 <dminuoso> cub3s_: So I draw this conclusion based on how it is expected to test unbreaking packages. It's sufficient to just build haskellPackages.foo
2021-05-07 11:15:25 +0200 <dminuoso> But ask in #nixos or on discourse if you want an accurate answer
2021-05-07 11:15:32 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-05-07 11:15:43 +0200marinelli(~marinelli@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli)
2021-05-07 11:16:05 +0200 <dminuoso> Plus, this would create for a more complicated test matrix. The fact that we cant mark them as broken per GHC would drastically reduce available packages if they had to build with all GHC versions
2021-05-07 11:17:04 +0200Jonno_FTW(~come@api.carswap.me)
2021-05-07 11:17:33 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> there are compiler specific files
2021-05-07 11:17:40 +0200 <cub3s_> dminuoso, do I understand you correctly that this "broken convenience" is only useful for haskellPackages (the default ghc)?
2021-05-07 11:17:47 +0200 <cub3s_> (and ignored for the other two compilers)?
2021-05-07 11:18:11 +0200 <cub3s_> s/compilers/compiler versions
2021-05-07 11:18:25 +0200 <dminuoso> DigitalKiwi: since when?
2021-05-07 11:19:13 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> https://dpaste.com/9BRTGQR7E
2021-05-07 11:19:42 +0200 <dminuoso> That's something else
2021-05-07 11:20:32 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-05-07 11:20:36 +0200mikeplus64(~mike@unaffiliated/mikeplus64) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-05-07 11:20:37 +0200wonko7(~wonko7@62.115.229.50)
2021-05-07 11:20:48 +0200 <dminuoso> You cant unbreak that way
2021-05-07 11:21:14 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2021-05-07 11:21:25 +0200 <bitonic> tomjaguarpaw: hey, does opaleye support the binary format in `libpq`?
2021-05-07 11:21:52 +0200 <__monty__> cub3s_: The haskell infra is really focused on supporting haskell things packaged in nixpkgs. Haskell.nix is a much nicer experience in some ways, though there's far less caching.
2021-05-07 11:21:58 +0200Jonno_FTW(~come@api.carswap.me) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-05-07 11:22:02 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> should be able to jailbreak/patch as needed
2021-05-07 11:22:21 +0200Jonno_FTW(~come@api.carswap.me)
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2021-05-07 11:24:17 +0200 <dminuoso> DigitalKiwi: Right, so that's useful for applying GHC specific patches (say dontCheck for a particular GHC version)
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2021-05-07 11:26:10 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> isn't that what cub3s_ is trying to do
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2021-05-07 11:27:42 +0200mikeplus64(~mike@unaffiliated/mikeplus64)
2021-05-07 11:28:49 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73afa.dyn.optonline.net)
2021-05-07 11:28:53 +0200 <cub3s_> DigitalKiwi, for now i just want to know if "broken=true" means it was only compiled against haskellPackages (haskell.packages.ghc8104) or also the other two compiler versions.
2021-05-07 11:29:26 +0200 <cub3s_> (i don't really care about the other, non-default, compiler versions)
2021-05-07 11:31:34 +0200 <cub3s_> in particular, to unbreak a broken haskell package in nixpkgs, is it enough for me to get it to compile on haskellPackages or do i also have to get it compile on the other compiler versions?
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2021-05-07 11:32:45 +0200 <dminuoso> cub3s_: ask in #nixos or on discourse.
2021-05-07 11:32:50 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
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2021-05-07 11:34:01 +0200antoniotrkdz(2d8b63d4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.45.139.99.212)
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2021-05-07 11:34:57 +0200wonko7(~wonko7@62.115.229.50)
2021-05-07 11:35:08 +0200 <cub3s_> dminuoso, thanks i'll do that
2021-05-07 11:35:44 +0200 <antoniotrkdz> hi.
2021-05-07 11:36:00 +0200 <boxscape> hey
2021-05-07 11:37:18 +0200 <antoniotrkdz> I know this could not be related to haskell, but does anybody managed to make the workspaces clickable in the xmonad log applet for Gnome/mate/xfce ?
2021-05-07 11:37:19 +0200zmijunkie1(~Adium@b2b-109-90-32-89.unitymedia.biz)
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2021-05-07 11:40:25 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> cub3s_: if you can get it to be not broke on just haskellPackages make a PR and we'll find out lol
2021-05-07 11:40:45 +0200 <dminuoso> And, to be fair, if you're unbreaking something, you might as well unbreak it for all.
2021-05-07 11:40:48 +0200acidjnk_new2(~acidjnk@p200300d0c72b9546b8782f113d81ff07.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2021-05-07 11:40:53 +0200 <dminuoso> Even if its not needed, Id consider it better style :p
2021-05-07 11:41:27 +0200hypercube(~hypercube@2603-6011-f901-9e5b-0000-0000-0000-08cf.res6.spectrum.com)
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2021-05-07 11:45:40 +0200kritzefitz(~kritzefit@212.86.56.80)
2021-05-07 11:45:45 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> some things are just a pita to fix
2021-05-07 11:45:53 +0200hypercube(~hypercube@2603-6011-f901-9e5b-0000-0000-0000-08cf.res6.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2021-05-07 11:48:41 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> like half of my prs for nixpkgs are haskell package fixes >.>
2021-05-07 11:49:05 +0200kritzefitz(~kritzefit@212.86.56.80)
2021-05-07 11:49:06 +0200 <DigitalKiwi> and a few dozen more i never get around to ;_;
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2021-05-07 11:57:33 +0200nut(~nut@roc37-h01-176-170-197-243.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr)
2021-05-07 11:57:45 +0200dminuosolongs for a way to alterF a nested map with lens style
2021-05-07 11:57:47 +0200NieDzejkob(~quassel@195.149.98.3)
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2021-05-07 12:01:26 +0200 <boxscape> if the evaluation of a value does not diverge, is it "convergent"?
2021-05-07 12:01:31 +0200kritzefitz(~kritzefit@212.86.56.80)
2021-05-07 12:01:32 +0200 <boxscape> s/value/expression
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2021-05-07 12:02:39 +0200kritzefitz(~kritzefit@212.86.56.80)
2021-05-07 12:02:53 +0200 <Taneb> dminuoso: how do you mean?
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2021-05-07 12:06:13 +0200iMast777(~iMast777@185.204.1.185)
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2021-05-07 12:09:13 +0200mikeplus32(~mike@103.25.58.152)
2021-05-07 12:09:23 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2021-05-07 12:10:21 +0200 <dminuoso> % Map.empty & at "hello" . non Map.empty . at "world" ?~ "!!!"
2021-05-07 12:10:21 +0200 <yahb> dminuoso: ; <interactive>:69:1: error:; Not in scope: `Map.empty'; Perhaps you meant `M.empty' (imported from Data.Map); No module named `Map' is imported.; <interactive>:69:30: error:; Not in scope: `Map.empty'; Perhaps you meant `M.empty' (imported from Data.Map); No module named `Map' is imported.
2021-05-07 12:10:54 +0200 <dminuoso> Uh. Well I can do the above with just plain map. But I want to have a version of it, that uses alterF underneath to throw some arbitrary exception on a duplicate key
2021-05-07 12:11:05 +0200vilpan(~0@212.117.1.172) ()
2021-05-07 12:11:16 +0200Codaraxis__(~Codaraxis@92.223.89.164)
2021-05-07 12:11:22 +0200 <Taneb> In recent versions of lens, at is defined in terms of alterF
2021-05-07 12:12:05 +0200 <Taneb> They have basically the same type signature (there's a flip needed but other than that...)
2021-05-07 12:12:26 +0200 <dminuoso> Right, but I dont even know how to communicate say IO effects through lens itself.
2021-05-07 12:12:44 +0200 <dminuoso> Consider:
2021-05-07 12:12:50 +0200 <dminuoso> % :t (?~)
2021-05-07 12:12:50 +0200 <yahb> dminuoso: ASetter s t a (Maybe b) -> b -> s -> t
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2021-05-07 12:44:58 +0200 <dminuoso> Taneb: Does this make sense? Something like `set` has no way to communicate failure.
2021-05-07 12:46:12 +0200 <Taneb> dminuoso: it's not a neat fit into the lens heirarchy but I'm sure it's possible with a lens to a maybe value
2021-05-07 12:47:22 +0200 <dminuoso> I guess that's possible, but it'd be very adhoc - with nested maps this doesn't autoamtically propagate
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2021-05-07 13:18:15 +0200 <cub3s_> How often does cabal hell happen in practice nowadays with the "nix-style" cabal builds?
2021-05-07 13:18:39 +0200 <cub3s_> merijn, thanks for the suggestions yesterday btw. it turns out cabal with nix-style builds is working for me fine and i have no need for nix
2021-05-07 13:18:58 +0200 <dminuoso> cub3s_: not at all, it's the point of nix-style builds.
2021-05-07 13:19:38 +0200 <dminuoso> (though you should probably define what you mean by "cabal hell")
2021-05-07 13:19:42 +0200 <cub3s_> dminuoso, ok, so one particular piece of program can be using multiple versions of a package if that solves the "hell"
2021-05-07 13:20:08 +0200 <__monty__> It still happens if you use v2-install afaik? So just don't.
2021-05-07 13:20:11 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-05-07 13:20:16 +0200 <__monty__> (Less frequently though.)
2021-05-07 13:20:44 +0200 <dminuoso> cub3s_: No, generally you need a coherent build plan.
2021-05-07 13:22:13 +0200 <dminuoso> Arguably, you should want this anyway. Having inconsistent versions simultaenously quickly leads to a lot of problems.
2021-05-07 13:22:38 +0200 <dminuoso> https://www.well-typed.com/blog/2014/09/how-we-might-abolish-cabal-hell-part-1/ is perhaps an interesting read
2021-05-07 13:22:55 +0200 <dminuoso> (There's also parts 2 and 3 on the blog)
2021-05-07 13:23:21 +0200machinedgod(~machinedg@135-23-192-217.cpe.pppoe.ca)
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2021-05-07 13:27:13 +0200urodna(~urodna@unaffiliated/urodna)
2021-05-07 13:30:54 +0200ddellacosta(~ddellacos@ool-44c73afa.dyn.optonline.net)
2021-05-07 13:32:07 +0200Pickchea(~private@unaffiliated/pickchea) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-05-07 13:34:09 +0200 <cub3s_> dminuoso, i will read this, thank you
2021-05-07 13:34:18 +0200 <cub3s_> (although it seems they never got around to part 3)
2021-05-07 13:34:30 +0200indomitable(~indomitab@gateway/tor-sasl/indomitable)
2021-05-07 13:34:41 +0200 <cub3s_> part 2 covers the nix-style stuff. this will be good to know
2021-05-07 13:35:15 +0200_xft0(~jaroslawj@185.234.208.208.r.toneticgroup.pl)
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2021-05-07 13:38:30 +0200bitdex(~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Quit: = "")
2021-05-07 13:39:38 +0200 <indomitable> is there a common sense explanation for a monad i might actually remember the next time i try to do functional things
2021-05-07 13:39:47 +0200 <indomitable> and yes i know the joke
2021-05-07 13:40:13 +0200 <merijn> Depending on your definition of "common sense": no
2021-05-07 13:40:31 +0200 <merijn> The laws *are* the explanation, but understanding that is the tricky part
2021-05-07 13:41:08 +0200 <merijn> indomitable: It's like trying to explain math abstractions (well it *is* explaining abstractions)
2021-05-07 13:41:18 +0200 <indomitable> yes, i do that all the time
2021-05-07 13:41:45 +0200 <indomitable> i don't see why monads are some magical exception to this rule, there has to be a better way of remembering what it is than memorizing it
2021-05-07 13:42:00 +0200 <merijn> indomitable: You can't "explain" "an associative operation", because the definition *is* the explanation "a + (b + c) = (a + b) + c"
2021-05-07 13:42:01 +0200 <indomitable> is it less intuitive than quantum theory? i mean come on
2021-05-07 13:42:07 +0200 <indomitable> you definitely can
2021-05-07 13:42:14 +0200 <indomitable> but not without a pedagogical background i guess
2021-05-07 13:42:26 +0200 <indomitable> dumbing things down is an art unto itself
2021-05-07 13:42:34 +0200 <merijn> indomitable: You can't, but you don't teach things from the abstraction
2021-05-07 13:42:48 +0200 <merijn> you instead show examples and then show how those represent the abstraction
2021-05-07 13:43:02 +0200 <merijn> The abstraction can, by definition, not be made less abstract
2021-05-07 13:43:15 +0200 <indomitable> depending on your definition of abstract
2021-05-07 13:43:16 +0200 <indomitable> :P
2021-05-07 13:43:18 +0200 <merijn> The way you explain monads is "show a bunch of things, then show that they're monads"
2021-05-07 13:43:24 +0200 <merijn> indomitable: The math definition
2021-05-07 13:43:29 +0200 <indomitable> that that seems futile
2021-05-07 13:43:35 +0200wonko7(~wonko7@62.115.229.50) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-05-07 13:43:40 +0200 <merijn> indomitable: Any specific example is necessarily more specific than the actual thing
2021-05-07 13:44:01 +0200 <indomitable> an example doesn't have to be specific, and often an abstract example can show how things relate better than a specific one
2021-05-07 13:44:05 +0200nut(~nut@roc37-h01-176-170-197-243.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr)
2021-05-07 13:44:11 +0200 <indomitable> human brains do not necessarily act logically in their learning process
2021-05-07 13:44:18 +0200 <merijn> indomitable: See my favourite quote:
2021-05-07 13:44:20 +0200 <merijn> Suppose that you want to teach the 'cat' concept to a very young child. Do you explain that a cat is a relatively small, primarily carnivorous mammal with retractible claws, a distinctive sonic output, etc.? I'll bet not. You probably show the kid a lot of different cats, saying 'kitty' each time, until it gets the idea. To put it more generally, generalizations are best made by abstraction from
2021-05-07 13:44:26 +0200 <merijn> experience.
2021-05-07 13:44:26 +0200frozenErebus(~frozenEre@37.231.244.249)
2021-05-07 13:44:28 +0200 <merijn> - R. P. Boas (Can we make mathematics intelligible?, American Mathematical Monthly 88 (1981), pp. 727-731)
2021-05-07 13:44:39 +0200 <indomitable> i'm going to assume his end-answer was "no"
2021-05-07 13:44:41 +0200mrchampion(~mrchampio@38.18.109.23) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-05-07 13:45:29 +0200nbloomf(~nbloomf@2600:1700:ad14:3020:3c82:1c53:1e38:e2d9)
2021-05-07 13:45:53 +0200 <merijn> indomitable: You ask "is there a common sense explanation", I say no, because even absolutely confusing, nonsensical things can be monads (see the Tardis monad). Anything that is more concrete/specific than the laws hides those parts of the definition.
2021-05-07 13:45:57 +0200Xraell(~xraell@45.157.15.145)
2021-05-07 13:46:24 +0200 <indomitable> i'm going to interpret that as "I don't know a way to do so" and leave the assumptions out of it
2021-05-07 13:46:27 +0200 <merijn> indomitable: You can certainly study more specific examples first and then form your own intuitions from there. But any specific example will not be the thing
2021-05-07 13:46:32 +0200nbloomf(~nbloomf@2600:1700:ad14:3020:3c82:1c53:1e38:e2d9) (Client Quit)
2021-05-07 13:46:57 +0200 <indomitable> i've explained more complicated things (and had them explained to me) in nice abstract but still relatable ways, i find it hard to believe that this is an exception to the rule
2021-05-07 13:47:00 +0200 <merijn> indomitable: It's not "I don't know a way to do so" this is a matter of "the map is not the territory"
2021-05-07 13:47:13 +0200 <indomitable> no one said the map is the territory
2021-05-07 13:47:43 +0200 <indomitable> this is a straw-man. it's ok not to know a way to do a thing. it's not a criticism of you or your skills that you can't solve this and as a result have taken a rather aggressive stance on its... doability
2021-05-07 13:48:05 +0200kritzefitz(~kritzefit@2003:5b:203b:200::10:49) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-05-07 13:48:22 +0200 <indomitable> i will endeavour to find ways of easily explaining it and perhaps eliminating the word from my vocabulary entirely to better encourage its usage
2021-05-07 13:48:31 +0200 <indomitable> (except in cases of reference)
2021-05-07 13:49:01 +0200 <lortabac> indomitable: are you asking because you want to learn monads or because you are looking for a good way of teaching them?
2021-05-07 13:49:07 +0200 <indomitable> lortabac, yes
2021-05-07 13:49:19 +0200 <indomitable> two sides of the same coin as it were
2021-05-07 13:49:28 +0200 <indomitable> my brain does not like super-abstract concepts it can't link to other concepts
2021-05-07 13:49:44 +0200 <indomitable> i can memorize things but that's not a good thing to do, because my brain is not a hard drive, it is a neural network
2021-05-07 13:49:51 +0200 <indomitable> and neural networks do not excel at memorizing definitions
2021-05-07 13:49:58 +0200 <lortabac> ok so IIUC you don't know what monads are and you want to learn them
2021-05-07 13:50:13 +0200 <indomitable> yes, but i only learn things properly when i can link them to other similar concepts
2021-05-07 13:50:29 +0200 <indomitable> i find it hard to believe monads are as difficult to grasp as quantum theory
2021-05-07 13:50:58 +0200 <lortabac> it's not that they are difficult
2021-05-07 13:51:16 +0200 <lortabac> it's that the explanation is indeed the definition
2021-05-07 13:51:20 +0200 <indomitable> i'm sure i've looked up and known the definition about 90 times
2021-05-07 13:51:23 +0200 <indomitable> and none of those times has it stuck
2021-05-07 13:51:25 +0200 <indomitable> it clearly isn't wrking
2021-05-07 13:51:29 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@unaffiliated/--/x-3805311) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-05-07 13:51:46 +0200 <indomitable> pattern recognition is failing because there's no other pattern in any aspect of my day to day life to link it to and enhance the signal for those neurons
2021-05-07 13:51:52 +0200 <lortabac> Monad in Haskell is a type-class with a bunch of methods and some laws
2021-05-07 13:52:18 +0200 <lortabac> if a type is an instance of the Monad class and respects the monad laws, it is a monad
2021-05-07 13:52:38 +0200 <indomitable> yes, i am familiar with ducks and their many ways of identification
2021-05-07 13:52:47 +0200 <lortabac> I guess what you are looking for is an intuition for when they are useful
2021-05-07 13:52:58 +0200 <indomitable> hmm, that would be a more advanced point, but yes, part of the journey
2021-05-07 13:53:07 +0200 <indomitable> first i want to be able to identify them
2021-05-07 13:53:22 +0200 <indomitable> and i want to be able to easily explain to someone how to identify them
2021-05-07 13:53:26 +0200Stanley00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00)
2021-05-07 13:53:27 +0200 <indomitable> if i can't teach it to a 6 year old i probably don't know it well
2021-05-07 13:54:08 +0200 <boxscape> indomitable one concept you can link them to is function composition - with regular function composition, you can combine (b -> c) and (a -> b) to get (a -> c), but if m is a monad, you can take (b -> m c) and (a -> m b) and get (a -> m c), so it allows you to compose functions of the form (a -> m b)
2021-05-07 13:54:58 +0200Stanley00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-05-07 13:54:59 +0200Stanley|00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00)
2021-05-07 13:55:04 +0200 <boxscape> % :t (<=<)
2021-05-07 13:55:04 +0200 <yahb> boxscape: Monad m => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c
2021-05-07 13:55:13 +0200 <_xft0> indomitable: have you seen a video where Graham Hutton is explaining this concept? it's available on YT (computerphile), maybe it will make things easier...
2021-05-07 13:57:10 +0200 <lortabac> also, IMHO part of the confusion comes from the fact that monad is also a thing in category theory
2021-05-07 13:57:31 +0200 <lortabac> but, unless you are specifically interested in maths, I would not bother with the mathematical definition for the moment
2021-05-07 13:58:13 +0200cub3s_(bifunc2@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/bifunc2) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-05-07 13:59:02 +0200 <indomitable> xff0x, doesn't ring a bell, i'll go check it out later, thanks, might be instructive
2021-05-07 13:59:12 +0200Stanley|00(~stanley00@unaffiliated/stanley00) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-05-07 13:59:55 +0200 <indomitable> i don't have a strong math background, so some of the concepts take a long time to grasp well
2021-05-07 13:59:59 +0200kritzefitz(~kritzefit@2003:5b:203b:200::10:49)
2021-05-07 14:00:16 +0200 <indomitable> imagine if those 2500 hours of dota i played (terribly) were spent on reading maths or literally anything productive... oh how foolish the young are
2021-05-07 14:00:25 +0200 <lortabac> personally the way I got an intuition for monads was by playing with the different instances (Maybe is probably the best one to start)
2021-05-07 14:00:45 +0200 <indomitable> my motivation for figuring out monads better is to get started with railway oriented programming
2021-05-07 14:00:48 +0200 <indomitable> and various other functional concepts
2021-05-07 14:00:52 +0200 <indomitable> because now that i am old i recognize their value
2021-05-07 14:00:59 +0200frozenErebus(~frozenEre@37.231.244.249) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-05-07 14:01:34 +0200 <indomitable> even javascript is an ok language if you apply (reasonably simple) functional principles to it
2021-05-07 14:02:11 +0200 <lortabac> also, in practice you almost never write your own monads in application code, so in practice all you need to learn is what each monad instance does
2021-05-07 14:03:18 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2021-05-07 14:03:36 +0200 <indomitable> lortabac, well, if you want to apply those functions in languages that don't natively support them, then you kind of have to
2021-05-07 14:03:42 +0200 <indomitable> ie, c#, which is my poison of choice
2021-05-07 14:03:51 +0200 <joel135> best video i have seen on monads for programming https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srQt1NAHYC0
2021-05-07 14:05:04 +0200 <lortabac> indomitable: oh I thought the question was about Haskell
2021-05-07 14:05:33 +0200 <indomitable> lortabac, haskell is a very functional language, so it's a good place to ask question about functional things. also, one of the few channels i'm not banned from (yet)
2021-05-07 14:05:36 +0200 <__monty__> I prefer Brian Beckman's crack at it, https://youtu.be/ZhuHCtR3xq8
2021-05-07 14:05:43 +0200 <joel135> other than that, it is true that a monad is a monoid, and it is true that every monad comes from a (not endo-) adjunction in two canonical ways
2021-05-07 14:06:03 +0200 <indomitable> joel135, lol. i believe it, i just space out when i read it :-)
2021-05-07 14:06:40 +0200 <joel135> i am not good at using monads for programming though
2021-05-07 14:06:42 +0200 <indomitable> in some ways it's good to go "wat?" at things, because that's how non-developers feel when i try to explain coding stuff to them
2021-05-07 14:06:46 +0200dhil(~dhil@195.213.192.4) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-05-07 14:07:07 +0200 <indomitable> joel135, you might enjoy the F# video about railway oriented programming then (it might be applicable to haskell too, but i don't know - haskell is a lot purer than f# in the functional sense)
2021-05-07 14:07:56 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-05-07 14:07:57 +0200 <joel135> i think i linked to the railway video?
2021-05-07 14:08:05 +0200 <lortabac> indomitable: if your question is about monads as a concept in category theory, well... I guess you have to learn category theory
2021-05-07 14:09:46 +0200 <joel135> the notion of adjunction is more symmetric than the notion of monoid. it comes with some nice geometry and logic too. i like adjunctions...
2021-05-07 14:10:04 +0200Pickchea(~private@unaffiliated/pickchea)
2021-05-07 14:10:16 +0200heatsink(~heatsink@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-05-07 14:10:24 +0200 <indomitable> lortabac, you're a category-theory infiltrator, aren't you, trying to spread the gospel to the unwashed masses!
2021-05-07 14:10:39 +0200 <lortabac> haha no, I know zero category theory
2021-05-07 14:10:47 +0200 <indomitable> that's just what a phd in category theory would say
2021-05-07 14:10:48 +0200 <indomitable> !!!
2021-05-07 14:12:11 +0200shurick(~shurick@2a00:f480:6::9)
2021-05-07 14:12:30 +0200 <indomitable> joel135, i'm checking out your video, thanks, might be a good place to start. i'll check out that computerphile video someone recommended also.
2021-05-07 14:13:04 +0200 <indomitable> i'm gonna go before i get myself banned for one reason or another.
2021-05-07 14:13:08 +0200indomitable(~indomitab@gateway/tor-sasl/indomitable) ("Leaving")
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2021-05-07 14:24:29 +0200CrazyPython(~crazypyth@98.122.164.118)
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2021-05-07 14:27:12 +0200frozenErebus(~frozenEre@37.231.244.249)
2021-05-07 14:27:59 +0200jonathanx(~jonathan@h-176-109.A357.priv.bahnhof.se)
2021-05-07 14:29:26 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7783:f200:a9b8:e92a:88db:4a1)
2021-05-07 14:29:53 +0200 <Gurkenglas> Can you recommend software for inspecting types like 2 = {0,1}, 2²={(0,0),(0,1),(1,0),(1,1)}, 2->2 = {(0,0),(0,1),(1,1)}, 2²->2 and (2²->2)->2? I'd like to see graphs.
2021-05-07 14:30:40 +0200nicholasbulka(~nicholasb@2601:900:4301:da0:9024:a632:8b7c:f290)
2021-05-07 14:32:53 +0200carlomagno(~cararell@148.87.23.11)
2021-05-07 14:33:17 +0200EvilMagix(~aVikingTr@2001:8003:340d:d00:b2de:b98:7a93:b0ea)
2021-05-07 14:33:49 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2021-05-07 14:34:01 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7783:f200:a9b8:e92a:88db:4a1) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-05-07 14:34:11 +0200gnumonic(~gnumonic@c-73-170-91-210.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-05-07 14:34:28 +0200stree(~stree@68.36.8.116)
2021-05-07 14:35:04 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Client Quit)
2021-05-07 14:35:22 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2021-05-07 14:36:25 +0200perrier-jouet(~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca)
2021-05-07 14:43:11 +0200marinelli(~marinelli@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) (Quit: marinelli)
2021-05-07 14:44:23 +0200geekosaur(930099da@rrcs-147-0-153-218.central.biz.rr.com)
2021-05-07 14:47:42 +0200perrier-jouet(~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 3.1)
2021-05-07 14:54:04 +0200 <boxscape> shouldn't 2^2 and 2->2 be the same type?
2021-05-07 14:54:10 +0200 <nut> what is Pattern in TH? is it the same as pattern matching, that pattern?
2021-05-07 14:55:38 +0200 <Taneb> boxscape: they should be isomorphic but not necessarily implemented in the same way
2021-05-07 14:55:53 +0200marinelli(~marinelli@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli)
2021-05-07 14:56:08 +0200 <boxscape> right, Gurkenglas wrote {(0,0),(0,1),(1,0),(1,1)} and {(0,0),(0,1),(1,1)}, which does not look isomorphic
2021-05-07 14:56:35 +0200 <Taneb> Oh, I see
2021-05-07 14:56:53 +0200 <Taneb> Ah, I get it, that second one is kind of 2 <= 2
2021-05-07 14:57:14 +0200 <Taneb> It's the set of monotonic maps
2021-05-07 14:57:20 +0200 <Taneb> No, monotonic pairs
2021-05-07 14:57:24 +0200 <Taneb> Something like that
2021-05-07 14:57:31 +0200 <boxscape> hmm
2021-05-07 14:57:48 +0200 <Gurkenglas> Yea it's supposed to be monotonic maps from 2 to 3.
2021-05-07 14:57:50 +0200 <Gurkenglas> *2 to 2
2021-05-07 14:57:55 +0200 <boxscape> I see
2021-05-07 14:59:08 +0200 <Gurkenglas> every -> is supposed to be the monotonic functions (so every type is supposed to define some partial order)
2021-05-07 14:59:41 +0200 <Gurkenglas> I suppose posing my questions like this, the obvious software is "write some code to define what you mean, then use graph libraries to define and draw some graphs"
2021-05-07 15:01:37 +0200 <Gurkenglas> Is there something that is to Haskell as Google Colab is to Python?
2021-05-07 15:01:41 +0200nicholasbulka(~nicholasb@2601:900:4301:da0:9024:a632:8b7c:f290) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-05-07 15:01:51 +0200hiroaki(~hiroaki@2a02:8108:8c40:2bb8:5226:d695:8fe3:b090) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-05-07 15:01:57 +0200nicholasbulka(~nicholasb@2601:900:4301:da0:9024:a632:8b7c:f290)
2021-05-07 15:04:01 +0200hyperisco(~hyperisco@d192-186-117-226.static.comm.cgocable.net)
2021-05-07 15:07:15 +0200SoF(~SoF@unaffiliated/skillyonfire)
2021-05-07 15:08:00 +0200fkjc(52d3c378@52d3c378.dynamic-ip.k-net.dk)
2021-05-07 15:08:36 +0200frozenErebus(~frozenEre@37.231.244.249) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-05-07 15:11:07 +0200 <fkjc> Does anyone know any resources on writing custom Cabal build scripts? I need to generate some library code before building, but it is not really obvious to me how to do this and the documentation is pretty sparse...
2021-05-07 15:12:55 +0200Guest18158(~joseph@2603-7000-7607-112b-351c-7687-8787-1bee.res6.spectrum.com)
2021-05-07 15:13:15 +0200nbloomf(~nbloomf@2600:1700:ad14:3020:3c82:1c53:1e38:e2d9)
2021-05-07 15:13:20 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-05-07 15:13:38 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2021-05-07 15:13:48 +0200hiroaki(~hiroaki@2a02:8108:8c40:2bb8:26bd:1b9c:1bb0:c59b)
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2021-05-07 15:21:28 +0200 <Gurkenglas> Should I define my partially ordered sets on the type level or the value level?
2021-05-07 15:21:56 +0200petersen(~petersen@redhat/juhp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-05-07 15:21:57 +0200 <boxscape> probably depends on what you want to do with them
2021-05-07 15:22:05 +0200hypercube(~hypercube@2603-6011-f901-9e5b-0000-0000-0000-08cf.res6.spectrum.com)
2021-05-07 15:22:26 +0200geowiesnot(~user@87-89-181-157.abo.bbox.fr) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-05-07 15:22:45 +0200 <Gurkenglas> Hmm if I'm gonna have a bunch of typeclasses defined on them and calculate one graph per type I should probably do the value level instead.
2021-05-07 15:23:05 +0200nan`(~nan`@unaffiliated/nan/x-5405850) (Quit: leaving)
2021-05-07 15:23:23 +0200 <Gurkenglas> (There's probably some language out there where the type and value level are the same)
2021-05-07 15:24:07 +0200 <__monty__> Most dependently typed languages.
2021-05-07 15:28:02 +0200nbloomf(~nbloomf@2600:1700:ad14:3020:3c82:1c53:1e38:e2d9) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-05-07 15:28:20 +0200m_shiraeeshi(~shiraeesh@5.101.59.1)
2021-05-07 15:28:25 +0200 <boxscape> Haskell is moving in that direction with -XDataKinds
2021-05-07 15:29:18 +0200 <boxscape> and at least the type and kind level (and everything higher) is unified
2021-05-07 15:29:31 +0200 <merijn> Gurkenglas: Idris
2021-05-07 15:29:34 +0200shad0w_(a0ca25b5@160.202.37.181)
2021-05-07 15:29:39 +0200nbloomf(~nbloomf@2600:1700:ad14:3020:1c47:1620:4713:95a3)
2021-05-07 15:29:39 +0200 <merijn> Gurkenglas: Agda and Coq too :p
2021-05-07 15:30:12 +0200geowiesnot(~user@i15-les02-ix2-87-89-181-157.sfr.lns.abo.bbox.fr)
2021-05-07 15:30:55 +0200 <boxscape> set theory
2021-05-07 15:31:18 +0200 <__monty__> The language up until this point known as Coq.
2021-05-07 15:32:14 +0200seven_three(~user@pool-96-252-123-136.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-05-07 15:34:53 +0200 <gentauro> does anybody know if this actually downloads the body (or just the `headers`)? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/http-client-0.7.8/docs/src/Network.HTTP.Client.Core.html#httpN…
2021-05-07 15:35:05 +0200Pickchea(~private@unaffiliated/pickchea) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2021-05-07 16:27:40 +0200fendor_fendor
2021-05-07 16:28:10 +0200nbloomf(~nbloomf@2600:1700:ad14:3020:1c47:1620:4713:95a3)
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2021-05-07 16:33:17 +0200star_cloud(~star_clou@ec2-34-220-44-120.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com)
2021-05-07 16:33:55 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2021-05-07 16:37:53 +0200zmijunkie1(~Adium@b2b-109-90-32-89.unitymedia.biz)
2021-05-07 16:38:07 +0200LKoen(~LKoen@140.170.9.109.rev.sfr.net)
2021-05-07 16:38:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> Gurkenglas: IHaskell exists, not sure how good or up to date it is?
2021-05-07 16:38:55 +0200dmytrish(~mitra@2a02:8084:a82:d900:471:637e:cf6a:1782) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-05-07 16:39:05 +0200 <boxscape> github repo appears to be active at least
2021-05-07 16:39:07 +0200zmijunkie(~Adium@87.122.209.149) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-05-07 16:41:27 +0200 <hc> cucumber glass?
2021-05-07 16:42:12 +0200stree(~stree@68.36.8.116) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-05-07 16:42:12 +0200mrchampion(~mrchampio@38.18.109.23)
2021-05-07 16:42:15 +0200sedeki(~textual@unaffiliated/sedeki)
2021-05-07 16:42:26 +0200zmijunkie(~Adium@87.122.209.149)
2021-05-07 16:42:38 +0200zmijunkie1(~Adium@b2b-109-90-32-89.unitymedia.biz) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-05-07 16:43:36 +0200 <[exa]> hc: a rare variety.
2021-05-07 16:44:00 +0200 <boxscape> better translation would be a glass filled with pickles
2021-05-07 16:44:21 +0200 <hc> thanks
2021-05-07 16:44:27 +0200 <hc> :)
2021-05-07 16:45:54 +0200 <boxscape> (s/glass/jar/, actually)
2021-05-07 16:47:26 +0200nbloomf(~nbloomf@2600:1700:ad14:3020:1c47:1620:4713:95a3) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-05-07 16:49:28 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7783:f200:a9b8:e92a:88db:4a1)
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2021-05-07 16:55:27 +0200 <c_wraith> gentauro: it's TCP. It sort of has to accept everything the server sends, unless it wants to break the connection. Also, the docs explicitly say that function is useful when making HEAD requests. That sounds to me like it just ignores any body that's sent.
2021-05-07 16:55:41 +0200stree(~stree@68.36.8.116)
2021-05-07 16:56:35 +0200acidjnk_new2(~acidjnk@p200300d0c72b9546b8782f113d81ff07.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-05-07 16:57:14 +0200 <c_wraith> gentauro: if you want to tell the server not to send the body, make a HEAD request instead of a GET request
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2021-05-07 17:48:06 +0200frozenErebus(~frozenEre@37.231.244.249)
2021-05-07 17:50:48 +0200 <absence> how does reportError fit with typed splices? the splice gives me Q (TExp (Either String Something)), but i want Q (TExp Something), and use reportError for the Left case
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2021-05-07 18:33:20 +0200seven_three(~user@pool-96-252-123-136.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
2021-05-07 18:33:55 +0200nut(~nut@roc37-h01-176-170-197-243.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr)
2021-05-07 18:34:42 +0200gehmehgeh(~ircuser1@gateway/tor-sasl/gehmehgeh)
2021-05-07 18:35:17 +0200 <seven_three> I want to modify the behavior of a function from an imported library. I am using stack for the project. I do not want to have to make a new module with a new version of this function, I instead would like to edit the existing one. How is it reccommended to do this?
2021-05-07 18:35:41 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7783:f200:5c3d:ae41:1644:7ac)
2021-05-07 18:35:47 +0200heatsink(~heatsink@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2021-05-07 18:36:18 +0200patu5(~u0_a179@154.228.149.197)
2021-05-07 18:36:39 +0200 <patu5> hello
2021-05-07 18:36:52 +0200frozenErebus(~frozenEre@37.231.244.249)
2021-05-07 18:37:07 +0200 <patu5> are u there
2021-05-07 18:37:31 +0200 <patu5> i need to talk to someboody
2021-05-07 18:37:35 +0200son0p(~ff@181.136.122.143) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-05-07 18:37:47 +0200 <patu5> hello
2021-05-07 18:38:30 +0200 <int-e> seven_three: why don't you want to write your own module and what would it take for you to reconsider that option?
2021-05-07 18:39:32 +0200 <patu5> i have just joined tell me this channel all about??!
2021-05-07 18:39:58 +0200 <seven_three> int-e: It is really so I can just keep using the function like I do now with a qualified import, and so I don't need to import an extra module in a bunch of places.
2021-05-07 18:40:09 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7783:f200:5c3d:ae41:1644:7ac) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-05-07 18:41:07 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ("Error from remote client")
2021-05-07 18:43:52 +0200 <int-e> seven_three: with qualified imports, you can import several modules under the same names. and you could reexport all of the original module too if you like. So it'd be more like a renamed module.
2021-05-07 18:44:09 +0200 <sm[m]> hello patu5! https://haskell.org will explain.
2021-05-07 18:44:17 +0200gitgood(~gitgood@80-44-12-75.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)
2021-05-07 18:45:38 +0200proofofkeags_(~proofofke@205.209.24.233)
2021-05-07 18:45:53 +0200 <seven_three> int-e: oh so I can just make the new module redefine the function, and export the new function along with the original library hiding the original function?
2021-05-07 18:47:22 +0200 <int-e> seven_three: Yes.
2021-05-07 18:47:37 +0200 <seven_three> ok that is a perfect solution thanks.
2021-05-07 18:47:57 +0200proofofkeags(~proofofke@205.209.28.54) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-05-07 18:48:17 +0200landonf(landonf@mac68k.info) (Excess Flood)
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2021-05-07 18:49:16 +0200landonf(landonf@mac68k.info)
2021-05-07 18:50:38 +0200nicholasbulka(~nicholasb@2601:900:4301:da0:9024:a632:8b7c:f290)
2021-05-07 18:51:06 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Quit: Connection closed)
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2021-05-07 18:52:58 +0200ft(~ft@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de)
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2021-05-07 18:54:02 +0200shad0w_(~shad0w_@160.202.37.181)
2021-05-07 18:54:09 +0200 <shad0w_> Hi
2021-05-07 18:55:02 +0200zebrag(~inkbottle@aaubervilliers-654-1-99-167.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-05-07 18:55:20 +0200zebrag(~inkbottle@aaubervilliers-654-1-99-167.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2021-05-07 18:57:38 +0200 <seven_three> Is it possible to hide functions when exporting another module? I basically want to say this: http://dpaste.com/DVSBQV3BB
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2021-05-07 19:03:32 +0200stree(~stree@68.36.8.116) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2021-05-07 19:06:09 +0200 <monochrom> Are you OK with: at the time of importing Other.FooBar you already do the hiding.
2021-05-07 19:06:13 +0200Sheilong(uid293653@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pcfseicosyfeggbs)
2021-05-07 19:06:52 +0200 <seven_three> yes that is fine
2021-05-07 19:07:40 +0200justsomeguy(~justsomeg@unaffiliated/--/x-3805311)
2021-05-07 19:08:08 +0200frozenErebus(~frozenEre@37.231.244.249)
2021-05-07 19:08:21 +0200 <monochrom> In general, see my http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/module.xhtml#re-export for what "module" really means. (It has nothing to do with modules.)
2021-05-07 19:08:54 +0200 <seven_three> alright I will read this now
2021-05-07 19:09:33 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@S0106a0ff7073d5d5.vf.shawcable.net)
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2021-05-07 19:10:10 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7783:f200:5c3d:ae41:1644:7ac)
2021-05-07 19:11:15 +0200Deide(~Deide@217.155.19.23)
2021-05-07 19:11:44 +0200 <monochrom> Hrm, I should improve the opening section "Terminology" to also explain why I say "long names" not "qualified names".
2021-05-07 19:13:12 +0200jakalx(~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
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2021-05-07 19:22:08 +0200jgt_(~jgt@92-247-237-116.spectrumnet.bg)
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2021-05-07 19:26:36 +0200coot(~coot@37.30.58.122.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
2021-05-07 19:32:41 +0200 <seven_three> monochrom: I now understand how this works thanks.
2021-05-07 19:33:04 +0200 <monochrom> :)
2021-05-07 19:33:18 +0200tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-05-07 19:45:22 +0200chimera(~chimera@168-182-134-95.pool.ukrtel.net)
2021-05-07 19:45:26 +0200sphizsphy
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2021-05-07 19:47:24 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7783:f200:5c3d:ae41:1644:7ac)
2021-05-07 19:47:25 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7783:f200:5c3d:ae41:1644:7ac) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-05-07 19:48:02 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7783:f200:5c3d:ae41:1644:7ac)
2021-05-07 19:48:12 +0200sphi86(a0ca25b5@160.202.37.181)
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2021-05-07 19:52:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> TIL full-module re-exports only export names that are also available unqualified
2021-05-07 19:52:54 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7783:f200:5c3d:ae41:1644:7ac) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-05-07 19:53:10 +0200 <tomsmeding> I guess I haven't used full-module re-exports enough to notice that, which I guess is a good thing?
2021-05-07 19:53:18 +0200 <monochrom> >:)
2021-05-07 19:53:35 +0200nut(~nut@roc37-h01-176-170-197-243.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr)
2021-05-07 19:53:53 +0200sszark(~sszark@h-213-180.A392.priv.bahnhof.se)
2021-05-07 19:54:06 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-05-07 19:54:52 +0200seven_three(~user@pool-96-252-123-136.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) ("ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.2)")
2021-05-07 19:54:54 +0200xcmw(~textual@dyn-72-33-2-152.uwnet.wisc.edu)
2021-05-07 19:55:02 +0200zebrag(~inkbottle@aaubervilliers-654-1-99-167.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-05-07 19:55:21 +0200zebrag(~inkbottle@aaubervilliers-654-1-99-167.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2021-05-07 19:56:10 +0200 <chisui> tomsmeding: I may be late to the party but where is the confusion about exported names?
2021-05-07 19:56:21 +0200sphi38(a0ca25b5@160.202.37.181)
2021-05-07 19:56:23 +0200 <sszark> Are there any built in ways to read comments at runtime? Similar to other languages like Rust, which has access to doc comments.
2021-05-07 19:56:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> chisui: I just read monochrom's blog post and found out a thing I didn't know yet :p
2021-05-07 19:56:36 +0200eacameron(uid256985@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-robbxgykzcgtbyzs)
2021-05-07 19:56:46 +0200 <maerwald> "comments at runtime"?
2021-05-07 19:57:23 +0200 <monochrom> chisui, when you write "module E(module I)" and the meaning of "module I" is not what you think.
2021-05-07 19:57:24 +0200tomsmedingis doubtful you can access rust doc comments at runtime
2021-05-07 19:57:37 +0200 <maerwald> tomsmeding: I'm trying to imagine how that would look like
2021-05-07 19:57:39 +0200tomsmedingis sure that python does do that, however
2021-05-07 19:57:45 +0200sphi38(a0ca25b5@160.202.37.181) (Client Quit)
2021-05-07 19:57:55 +0200 <sszark> Essentially i would like to print a comment. But i wasn't able to find any information about this. So i'm guessing you can't do it.
2021-05-07 19:57:56 +0200nicholasbulka(~nicholasb@2601:900:4301:da0:9024:a632:8b7c:f290) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-05-07 19:57:59 +0200 <sszark> Also i meant at compile time, my bad.
2021-05-07 19:58:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> lol
2021-05-07 19:58:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> haskell has doc comments for generating documentation from
2021-05-07 19:58:23 +0200sphi(a0ca25b5@160.202.37.181)
2021-05-07 19:58:29 +0200 <maerwald> like, you run the binary and all comments that are along the callstack will be shown?
2021-05-07 19:58:36 +0200 <tomsmeding> what do you want to do with the text exactly?
2021-05-07 19:58:56 +0200 <monochrom> I don't know what "read doc comments at compile time" mean.
2021-05-07 19:59:09 +0200tomsmedingneither, which is why I'm asking :)
2021-05-07 19:59:27 +0200 <chisui> Ah, so something like `module A{ module B ) where { import B(b) }` exports only `b` from `B`
2021-05-07 19:59:31 +0200 <tomsmeding> (for haskell doc comments, see "haddock")
2021-05-07 19:59:45 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2021-05-07 19:59:46 +0200nicholasbulka(~nicholasb@c-73-21-82-200.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
2021-05-07 20:00:01 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-05-07 20:00:04 +0200 <monochrom> And if you change to "import qualified B(b)" you export nothing.
2021-05-07 20:00:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> chisui: indeed, but more funnily, `module A(module B) where { import qualified B }` exports nothing
2021-05-07 20:00:10 +0200 <tomsmeding> that
2021-05-07 20:00:15 +0200nurupo(~nurupo.ga@unaffiliated/nurupo) (Quit: nurupo.ga)
2021-05-07 20:00:22 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2021-05-07 20:00:30 +0200nurupo(~nurupo.ga@unaffiliated/nurupo)
2021-05-07 20:00:57 +0200 <monochrom> and "import B as C(b)" it is now called C not B, you have to say "module C", bearing in mind that "C" is not a module.
2021-05-07 20:01:06 +0200sphi(a0ca25b5@160.202.37.181) (Client Quit)
2021-05-07 20:01:12 +0200 <monochrom> at least not in most people's mind.
2021-05-07 20:01:33 +0200 <monochrom> and Mr. Speaker doesn't speak
2021-05-07 20:01:44 +0200 <monochrom> and in the Commonwealth, wealth is not common.
2021-05-07 20:01:47 +0200 <chisui> tomsmeding ... yeah, of course. That's how namespaces work. Am I missing something?
2021-05-07 20:02:07 +0200howdoi(uid224@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hzckqjwmuxbtspgy)
2021-05-07 20:02:27 +0200nineonine(~nineonine@2604:3d08:7783:f200:5c3d:ae41:1644:7ac)
2021-05-07 20:02:31 +0200 <sszark> Essentially i just want to print doc strings for the user. This way you'd only need to update the documentation. Instead of storing them as both strings and doc comments.
2021-05-07 20:02:33 +0200 <chisui> ... Oh, of course
2021-05-07 20:02:38 +0200 <tomsmeding> chisui: previously I was under the mistaken assumption that exporting 'module M' everything available under the qualified 'M.' -- which is apparently not true :)
2021-05-07 20:02:39 +0200 <sszark> I'll have a look at Haddock and see how they do it. Thanks
2021-05-07 20:02:50 +0200CrazyPython(~crazypyth@98.122.164.118) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-05-07 20:02:51 +0200 <monochrom> Well, I would be happier if the syntax were "module A(namespace B)" instead of "module A(module B)".
2021-05-07 20:03:18 +0200 <tomsmeding> sszark: oh you want to print a doc comment at runtime, like in python where you can do print(__doc__)?
2021-05-07 20:03:21 +0200jeanclaude[m](jeanclaude@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-mmihezdzzruufkof)
2021-05-07 20:03:24 +0200 <tomsmeding> no you can't do that in haskell
2021-05-07 20:03:32 +0200motersen(~motersen@gateway/tor-sasl/motersen) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-05-07 20:03:39 +0200geekosaurwonders about annotations
2021-05-07 20:03:48 +0200motersen(~motersen@gateway/tor-sasl/motersen)
2021-05-07 20:03:52 +0200 <sszark> I'm not familar with Python, But essentially yes.
2021-05-07 20:04:08 +0200 <tomsmeding> can you do that in rust?
2021-05-07 20:04:10 +0200 <chisui> CCP?
2021-05-07 20:04:14 +0200nicholasbulka(~nicholasb@c-73-21-82-200.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-05-07 20:04:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> *CPP but yes, but please no
2021-05-07 20:04:56 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-05-07 20:04:58 +0200xcmw(~textual@dyn-72-33-2-152.uwnet.wisc.edu) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-05-07 20:05:13 +0200 <chisui> Yeah, DON'T USE CCP unless you REALLY know what you are doing.
2021-05-07 20:05:25 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-05-07 20:05:38 +0200 <tomsmeding> (it's "C PreProcessor")
2021-05-07 20:05:50 +0200 <sszark> yeah tomsmeding, libraries like structopt implements it. It's pretty clever.
2021-05-07 20:06:10 +0200OscarZ(~oscarz@95.175.104.236)
2021-05-07 20:06:31 +0200 <monochrom> Oh, command line arguments.
2021-05-07 20:06:32 +0200tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2021-05-07 20:07:16 +0200 <tomsmeding> fancy
2021-05-07 20:07:26 +0200 <monochrom> Don't put in "doc comments" at all. Use a library such as optparse-applicative or options.
2021-05-07 20:07:42 +0200 <monochrom> This is known as "XY problem".
2021-05-07 20:08:37 +0200 <chisui> You could use Symbols and `KnownSymbol` do generate some stuff at compile time
2021-05-07 20:09:07 +0200 <sszark> I wouldn't say so. I was just wondering if it was possible. It would streamline the program i'm currently writing. The arg parsing library i mentioned was just an example.
2021-05-07 20:09:30 +0200 <tomsmeding> sszark: what monochrom is saying is: reconsider if you really need that text in a doc comment, and maybe just put it in a string
2021-05-07 20:09:51 +0200 <monochrom> KnownSymbol would be https://hackage.haskell.org/package/commander-cli-0.10.1.2/docs/Options-Commander.html
2021-05-07 20:11:02 +0200 <chisui> monochrom Uh, cool. I didn't know about that library.
2021-05-07 20:11:04 +0200 <thblt> Hey #haskell, I've implemented the classic GADT example of the calc expression language that with Ints *and* Bools and GADT constructors that prevent adding one to the other. But I also have an Eq constructor that compares Bools xor Ints alike, and Haskell don't want to typecheck my eval if I don't add an explicit (Eq a) constraint that I don't think I *need*. Code is here: https://paste.thb.lt/1620410796.hs_src_.html
2021-05-07 20:11:25 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2021-05-07 20:11:30 +0200 <geekosaur> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/annotations
2021-05-07 20:11:56 +0200sphi(~sphi@160.202.37.181)
2021-05-07 20:12:18 +0200 <thblt> My (probably naive) reasoning goes like this: since Calc is closed, it's impossible to construct a Calc a with an `a` that isn't Eq, and I'd expect the typechecker to know that.
2021-05-07 20:12:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> thblt: `undefined :: Calc String`
2021-05-07 20:12:50 +0200 <tomsmeding> that's not just a facetious answer, it's really the reason
2021-05-07 20:12:57 +0200 <thblt> tomsmeding: but can you *create* such a value?
2021-05-07 20:13:01 +0200 <tomsmeding> I just did :p
2021-05-07 20:13:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> you're not pattern matching on 'a' or 'b' so you don't know yet if it's undefined or not
2021-05-07 20:13:19 +0200 <chisui> thblt you need the constraint because you don't have the constraint on the function `eval`
2021-05-07 20:13:34 +0200 <tomsmeding> once you pattern match, the type is known, of course
2021-05-07 20:14:06 +0200elliott_(~elliott_@pool-108-18-30-46.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-05-07 20:14:09 +0200nut(~nut@roc37-h01-176-170-197-243.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-05-07 20:14:13 +0200 <tomsmeding> I believe the standard trick here is to have a separate data type, say 'data Type a where TInt :: Type Int ; TBool :: Type Bool', and including a 'Type a' within every arm of Calc
2021-05-07 20:15:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> then make a function 'typeOf :: Calc a -> Type a', and make a function 'eqValues :: Type a -> a -> a -> Bool' that pattern-matches on the Type and _then_ compares
2021-05-07 20:15:09 +0200 <thblt> chisui: I don't understand in which case it could not be satisfied by the very definition of the type.
2021-05-07 20:15:17 +0200waleee-cl(uid373333@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fwnywpfxxvlrvudf)
2021-05-07 20:15:20 +0200 <chisui> what about `eval :: Eq a -> Calc a -> a`?
2021-05-07 20:15:21 +0200 <tomsmeding> because only after the pattern match on Type do you know what types you have in hand, and thus what Eq dictionary you should use
2021-05-07 20:15:52 +0200royal_screwup213(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-05-07 20:16:06 +0200 <tomsmeding> thblt: another way to think about it: how is GHC supposed to figure out which (==) it should use -- the one from Int or the one from Bool?
2021-05-07 20:16:09 +0200 <sszark> I'll drop it, But the benefit of what was thinking. Would allow for the program itself and documentation to share the same declarations. Putting it in as strings wouldn't generate anything in the docs. So you would need to identical summaries.
2021-05-07 20:16:14 +0200 <tomsmeding> it will have to pattern match on 'a' and 'b' to figure that out
2021-05-07 20:16:30 +0200 <sszark> two*
2021-05-07 20:16:41 +0200 <tomsmeding> sszark: true, but unfortunately that's not possible in haskell at the moment
2021-05-07 20:16:43 +0200frozenErebus(~frozenEre@37.231.244.249) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-05-07 20:16:53 +0200 <sszark> That's good to know. thanks!
2021-05-07 20:17:31 +0200 <chisui> Ohhhhhh, It could be a naming conflict for `Eq`. Try naming the constructor `EQ` or something like that
2021-05-07 20:17:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> chisui: no that's not the problem :p
2021-05-07 20:17:56 +0200mrchampion(~mrchampio@38.18.109.23) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-05-07 20:17:56 +0200 <monochrom> My perspective is that I don't want the user-facing explanation and the programmer-facing explanation to be in sync.
2021-05-07 20:18:17 +0200 <monochrom> Except for toy programs. (roast!)
2021-05-07 20:18:28 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-05-07 20:18:43 +0200 <tomsmeding> at some point deep in the ghc compilation pipeline, type classes become _values_. Using (==) on type 'a' means that you must have a _value_ (namely, a dictionary) of type 'Eq a' to get it from
2021-05-07 20:19:02 +0200 <thblt> tomsmeding: but the *current* code compiles with `test = eval (Eq (CInt 3) undefined)`. `undefined` inhabits every type, afaik.
2021-05-07 20:19:09 +0200 <monochrom> The user-facing explanation contains syntactic details that disappear in the internal, programmer-facing representation, for example.
2021-05-07 20:19:28 +0200 <chisui> Urgh, I though it was `Eq :: Eq a -> a -> Calc a`. Don't listen to me tomsmeding is the guy.
2021-05-07 20:19:32 +0200 <tomsmeding> if ghc knows what types you're comparing, it knows where to get the dictionary from at compile time; if you have an 'Eq a' constraint, then at runtime there will be a real dictionary passed around containing the right definition of (==)
2021-05-07 20:19:33 +0200 <monochrom> The programmer-facing representation has invariants that make no sense to the user.
2021-05-07 20:20:21 +0200 <chisui> `Eq :: Eq a => a -> a -> Calc a` I should go
2021-05-07 20:20:46 +0200robotmay(~beepboop@2001:8b0:7af0:2580:df9:a82d:b905:b9d2) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-05-07 20:20:48 +0200 <monochrom> My https://github.com/treblacy/random-read is an example of the user-syntax-detail case.
2021-05-07 20:21:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> thblt: so the point is that if the type is not known, and there's no Eq constraint available, then ghc has nowhere to pull the (==) from :p
2021-05-07 20:21:28 +0200 <thblt> Ha, right, I can do `fail = eval (Eq (undefined :: Calc Truc) (undefined :: Calc Truc))`
2021-05-07 20:21:29 +0200 <tomsmeding> so that's why you need that constraint
2021-05-07 20:21:33 +0200 <thblt> tomsmeding: thanks.
2021-05-07 20:21:52 +0200raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2021-05-07 20:22:48 +0200 <monochrom> The ideal of "write each fact once only" is plausible but it is not going to manifest in the form "write the same text and reuse verbatim in multiple contexts".
2021-05-07 20:23:22 +0200 <thblt> IOW, I cannot prevent the existence of a value of type "Calc X" for all x because of `undefined`, right?
2021-05-07 20:23:35 +0200 <tomsmeding> that's part of the problem indeed
2021-05-07 20:23:54 +0200 <tomsmeding> the other part is that even if there was no undefined at all, ghc would need to do _work_ to figure out which type is the right one
2021-05-07 20:24:28 +0200 <tomsmeding> because the types to compare depend on the _value_ at runtime
2021-05-07 20:24:33 +0200 <monochrom> Rather, it is more likely to manifest as writing in a structured, machine-readable format, and then for different contexts you apply a different filter and presenter.
2021-05-07 20:24:50 +0200mrchampion(~mrchampio@38.18.109.23)
2021-05-07 20:25:20 +0200 <thblt> tomsmeding: Ha right, Calc A and Calc B are both Calc.
2021-05-07 20:25:38 +0200 <thblt> tomsmeding: Thanks a lot :)
2021-05-07 20:25:59 +0200 <tomsmeding> the ghc developers could have decided to have the program do that work at runtime -- pattern match on the Calc in question to figure out which Eq dictionary to use -- but they decided not to
2021-05-07 20:26:03 +0200 <tomsmeding> thblt: cheers!
2021-05-07 20:26:49 +0200tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
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2021-05-07 20:35:54 +0200nicholasbulka(~nicholasb@2601:900:4301:da0:9024:a632:8b7c:f290)
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2021-05-07 20:38:45 +0200 <monochrom> The intuitionistic/construcive logic perspective sides with the compiler.
2021-05-07 20:38:47 +0200 <Gurkenglas> I'm getting a type error of b1 in go :: forall a1 b1. a1 -> Graph [(a1, b1)] -> Graph [(a1, b1)] not matching with b in monotonic :: (Ord a, Eq b) => Graph a -> Graph b -> Graph [(a, b)] even after turning on ScopedTypeVariables, what might cause that?
2021-05-07 20:39:03 +0200chisui(59f77ca1@i59F77CA1.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-05-07 20:39:17 +0200 <Gurkenglas> (where my actual type annotation has no 1 in there)
2021-05-07 20:39:33 +0200 <monochrom> A classical logician has no problem with "a~Int or a~Bool, what's the problem?". A intuitionistic logician disagrees, "but you didn't tell me which one it is".
2021-05-07 20:39:57 +0200 <Gurkenglas> (works if I comment out go's annotation)
2021-05-07 20:40:11 +0200nicholasbulka(~nicholasb@2601:900:4301:da0:9024:a632:8b7c:f290) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2021-05-07 20:42:46 +0200dpl(~dpl@77-121-78-163.chn.volia.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-05-07 20:43:19 +0200 <monochrom> The minimum requirement for the Eq case would be: Eq :: Either (a :~: Bool) (a :~: Int) -> Calc a -> Calc a -> Bool
2021-05-07 20:44:08 +0200 <monochrom> This is minimum in theoretical obligatory information. The minimum-in-programmer-time solution is, of course, just adding "Eq a =>" and call it a day.
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2021-05-07 21:16:37 +0200 <Gurkenglas> I have a string in ghci. How do I call another process with it?
2021-05-07 21:17:26 +0200 <Gurkenglas> I could put the string computation in a main, compile the .hs and pipe the .exe into that process, but that seems slow for iteration
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2021-05-07 21:27:33 +0200 <hyperisco> anyone know anything about stack exit codes? I am getting exit code 2 despite there being no error message
2021-05-07 21:27:50 +0200 <hyperisco> on stack install
2021-05-07 21:28:32 +0200 <hyperisco> the output appears the same on another machine but the exit code is 0
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2021-05-07 21:36:43 +0200 <Gurkenglas> uhh maybe it would say more if "globalLogLevel global == LevelDebug" evaluated to true? https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/blob/255cd830627870cdef34b5e54d670ef07882523e/src/main/…
2021-05-07 21:38:49 +0200stree(~stree@68.36.8.116)
2021-05-07 21:39:39 +0200seven_three(~user@pool-96-252-123-136.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) ("ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.2)")
2021-05-07 21:39:49 +0200shutdown_-h_now(~arjan@2001:1c06:2d0b:2312:cc13:5292:6bd3:1cef)
2021-05-07 21:41:13 +0200proofofkeags__(~proofofke@205.209.28.54)
2021-05-07 21:42:17 +0200 <hyperisco> it might say more with -v … well maybe … it looks like that global handler in particular goes to the Left branch for exit codes
2021-05-07 21:43:12 +0200 <hyperisco> or it could be hitting line 147 which also has no message
2021-05-07 21:43:44 +0200 <hyperisco> I am just going to see if exit code 2 is okay to live with
2021-05-07 21:45:06 +0200juuandyy(~juuandyy@90.106.228.121) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-05-07 21:50:20 +0200minoru_shiraeesh(~shiraeesh@109.166.57.105)
2021-05-07 21:51:44 +0200 <Gurkenglas> Why isn't alga's Graph a subclass of Num?
2021-05-07 21:52:06 +0200m_shiraeeshi(~shiraeesh@5.101.59.1) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2021-05-07 21:56:33 +0200 <Gurkenglas> ":k AC.Vertex (Algebra.Graph.AdjacencyMap.AdjacencyMap Int)" in ghci says *, how do I get the resulting type?
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2021-05-07 22:07:55 +0200 <tomsmeding> Gurkenglas: use the 'process' package?
2021-05-07 22:08:12 +0200 <tomsmeding> or perhaps 'typed-process' though I haven't tried that one yet
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2021-05-07 22:09:22 +0200 <tomsmeding> Gurkenglas: I believe since ghc 9.2, :k! evaluates type families
2021-05-07 22:09:29 +0200geekosaur(930099da@rrcs-147-0-153-218.central.biz.rr.com)
2021-05-07 22:09:45 +0200Synthetica(uid199651@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jfnenignxbjtugzo)
2021-05-07 22:09:49 +0200 <tomsmeding> it used to do that in the past but at some point it changed because it was never intended behaviour; since a very recent release notes (I believe 9.2) it does it again
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2021-05-07 22:11:27 +0200 <tomsmeding> yeah 9.2 https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/docs/users_guide/9.2.1-notes.rst
2021-05-07 22:11:37 +0200lawid(~quassel@2a02:8109:b5c0:5334:265e:beff:fe2a:dde8)
2021-05-07 22:11:37 +0200 <tomsmeding> (search for :kind!)
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2021-05-07 22:21:54 +0200xcmw(~textual@dyn-72-33-2-152.uwnet.wisc.edu)
2021-05-07 22:29:22 +0200 <Gurkenglas> yeah process and :k! worked, thanks
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